36000 From: plnao Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 2:43pm Subject: Deeds of Merit - Avoidance of kusala - degrees of defilements Hello All More from ¡ÈDeeds of Merit¡É by K Sujin (available at Zolag) The next deeds of merit are related to Siila. S. : ¡Ä there are different degrees of defilements: they can be coarse, medium or subtle. Moreover, there are defilements by way of bodily actions, by way of speech or by the mind. Some people have eliminated coarse defilements, but they cannot eliminate the medium and the subtle defilements. Some people have eliminated defilements with regard to their bodily actions but not those with regard to their speech. Therefore, the Buddha, because of his incomparable compassion, showed the way to eradicate all degrees of defilements, those which are coarse, medium and subtle, the defilements by way of bodily actions, by way of speech and of the mind. He taught about each and all of them, in every detail. The Buddha did not teach that defilements are eradicated only by means of daana, generosity, the giving away of things to someone else. Ph: I am interested in the way defilements of the mind lead to those of speech and action. Of course this is seen in Dhammapada 1:1. Could anyone tell me if there are any suttas in which the Buddha explicitly considered the difference between coarse, medium and subtle defilements? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 36001 From: Egbert Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 2:53pm Subject: Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi RobK (and Phil), > I think calm grows deep in accordance with how much anatta is > understood. For some reason I sometimes see people disdaining theory about anatta - but theory is the first step. And that first step has to be a broad, solid base otherwise the practice will go wrong in some way. Thanks for your posts, as always. I wrote something recently about anatta which some may view as having being disdainful, and I would just like to clarify that a little. I wrote to Sarah along the lines that the doctrine of anatta for a person seeking to exercise control in the world could be a detrimental thing. I also wrote that I didn't think the Buddha taught anatta to worldlings intent on remaining so. I also wrote that anatta is not theory, it is practice only. If any of that comes across as being disdainful, then I have expressed myself rather poorly, and I ask people to accept that, despite how I express myself, I am not disdainful of teachings on conditionality (anatta). I owe Phil a reply on anatta being practice only, and this post seems a convenient and relevant vehicle. I hope you are reading this, Phil :-). There is, in my book, no theoretical activity. Activity is always practical. So studyfully reading the Abhidhamma or a compendium thereof is a practice. It is what one is doing. All day long people do stuff with intentions along the lines of "I am doing this, I am not doing this". Now, studying the Abhidhamma is no different. People set out to study conditionality, as a purposeful self. There may well be moments during such activity in which a little light flashes and a silent speech balloon displays "This is all conditionality. There is no self". The assumption that this little revelation occured due to the purposeful study as a self of a book is highly conjectural. The occurence of these revelations seems to be completely beyond prediction, and they may well occur while reading a phone book or any other activity for that matter. Studying the Abhidhamma is no different to formal meditation if it is carried out purposefully. Of course, Arahants have no such problems. They do not conceive of any acts as being carried out by a self, as a self. They do not need to read the Abhidhamma, nor do they need to meditate. But until their bodies give way, the historical record suggests that meditate they do, if only to subtly enjoy the remainder of their days. Kind Regards Herman 36002 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 3:06pm Subject: Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Dear Herman, Thanks for this excellent post. In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > > I wrote to Sarah along the lines that the doctrine of anatta for a > person seeking to exercise control in the world could be a > detrimental thing. I also wrote that I didn't think the Buddha > taught anatta to worldlings intent on remaining so. I also wrote > that anatta is not theory, it is practice only. > > There is, in my book, no theoretical activity. > Activity is always practical. So studyfully reading the Abhidhamma > or a compendium thereof is a practice. It is what one is doing. All > day long people do stuff with intentions along the lines of "I am > doing this, I am not doing this". Now, studying the Abhidhamma is no > different. People set out to study conditionality, as a purposeful > self. There may well be moments during such activity in which a > little light flashes and a silent speech balloon displays "This is > all conditionality. There is no self". The assumption that this > little revelation occured due to the purposeful study as a self of a > book is highly conjectural. The occurence of these revelations seems > to be completely beyond prediction, and they may well occur while > reading a phone book or any other activity for that matter. > +++++++++++ I think so. And we can study the Abhidhamma and even puff up the idea of self: , so proud of "knowing" there is no self. So, nothing is easy when it comes to developing proper understanding. The Abhidhamma is a medicine to fight the disease of self-view, but if could even worsen the disease if not applied properly. Robert 36003 From: plnao Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner Hello All, I've just started studying Cetasikas so would be very interested in a group like this if Andrew L or anyone else wants to start to post passages. (I would do it but I'll be posting passages from "Deeds of Merit".) In the meantime, a question. In chapter one we read that "some cittas are accompanied only by the universals, other are accompanied by several more cetasikas in addition." For some reason I am curious to know which cetasikas are accompanied only by the universals and if there is any particular significance to them. Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 2:05 PM Subject: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner > > Hi Andrew L (& All), > > We've discussed the value of studying 'Cetasikas' a little more formally > here and I think you asked for my suggestions on this. We've also had one > or two discussions on dana and sharing and I'm wondering if they can be > linked up here. > > What would be really helpful for the group (imho) would be if we could all > start together from the beginning (from the intro or even the preface). > Would you be willing to post a small section, say one or two paragraphs, > daily or every few days (excluding days you're too busy or not feeling up > to it)? If you would then (in the same post or better still in a separate > post), add any comments or brief qus, we'd all benefit further. > > If you're interested in this as a kind of dana, I'd suggest you use this > version at RobK's website as the Zolag ones are a little difficult to > access. > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > > Some time back, thanks to Larry, we went through Abh in D.Life and then > the Satip. Sutta commentaries in this way. It may take a year or two, but > that doesn't matter. Larry and Nina are also currently working through > Vism - cX1V onwards (Understanding section) and expect it to be a lifetime > work! (They'd be very glad if you or anyone else chips in anytime too). > > Back to Cetasikas - to get an idea of a reasonable length and way ADL was > done, I've just picked out 2 random posts of Larry's for you to look at. I > think he dropped the numbering of paragraphs after a while - keeping it > simple and easy: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13028 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13047 > > He'd just press on regardless of whether there was feedback or not which > obviously varies at different times and I was and am extremely grateful to > him for this. > > Even if you just posted one a week, I'd be glad. I've had this book in > mind for a study corner for a long time. > > Let me know what you think. > > Nina, I and others will be glad to contribute, I know. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s I can also help post the extracts if it helps, but would prefer it to > be someone else really;-) > =================== > 36004 From: Egbert Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 3:13pm Subject: Re: Karunadasa Hi Joop and all, Thanks for the link. I thoroughly enjoy reading the esaay. I have a question that you or others may wish to discuss further with me. > > Time and Space: The Abhidhamma Perspective > Y. Karunadasa, > Postgraduate Institute of Pali and Buddhist Studies > > The essay can now be found on: > http://www.indology.net/article5.html > http://www.orientalia.org/printout594.html > Quoted from the above: "What emerges from this Abhidhamma doctrine of dhammas is a critical realism, one which (unlike idealism) recognizes the distinctness of the world from the experiencing subject yet also distinguishes between those types of entities that truly exist independently of the cognitive act and those that owe their being to the act of cognition itself. " I do not understand how anything can be known about entities that truly exist independently of the cognitive act. How does one arrive at such a position? Can anyone shed some light on this? Kind Regards Herman 36005 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 3:30pm Subject: Re: Deeds of Merit - Avoidance of kusala - degrees of defilements Hello Phil, all, Here's one ... "Just so, monks, for a monk engaged in higher mentality there are coarse defilements: bad body-conduct, bad speech-conduct, bad mind- conduct. A conscientious and able monk puts them away, drives them out, gets rid of them, brings them to naught. When these are put away and got rid of, then for a monk engaged in higher mentality there are medium defilements: sensual thoughts, angry thoughts, cruel thoughts. A conscientious and able monk puts them away, drives them out, gets rid of them, brings these to naught. When these are put away and got rid of, then for a monk engaged in higher mentality there are fine defilements: thoughts of birth, thoughts of country, thoughts connected with reputation. A conscientious and able monk puts them away, drives them out, gets rid of them, brings them to naught. When these are put away and got rid of, then there remain thoughts about the Nature of Things. There is concentration that is neither peaceful nor exalted nor tranquil nor arrived at unification, that is together with determinations, constrained, obstructed, confined. There comes a time, monks, when that mind is internally steadied, settled, unified, and concentrated. There is concentration that is peaceful, exalted, tranquil, and arrived at unification, that is without determinations, unconstrained, unobstructed, unconfined." A. III,100 (i, 254-5) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > Hello All > > > > More from ¡ÈDeeds of Merit¡É by K Sujin (available at Zolag) > > > > The next deeds of merit are related to Siila. > > > > S. : ¡Ä there are different degrees of defilements: they can be coarse, > medium or subtle. Moreover, there are defilements by way of bodily actions, > by way of speech or by the mind. Some people have eliminated coarse > defilements, but they cannot eliminate the medium and the subtle > defilements. Some people have eliminated defilements with regard to their > bodily actions but not those with regard to their speech. Therefore, the > Buddha, because of his incomparable compassion, showed the way to eradicate > all degrees of defilements, those which are coarse, medium and subtle, the > defilements by way of bodily actions, by way of speech and of the mind. He > taught about each and all of them, in every detail. The Buddha did not teach > that defilements are eradicated only by means of daana, generosity, the > giving away of things to someone else. > > Ph: I am interested in the way defilements of the mind lead to those of > speech and action. Of course this is seen in Dhammapada 1:1. > > Could anyone tell me if there are any suttas in which the Buddha explicitly > considered the difference between coarse, medium and subtle defilements? > Thanks in advance. > > Metta, > > Phil 36006 From: Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 4:02pm Subject: Vism.XIV 98 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 98. But it is classed according to its association with joy or with equanimity, and according to its being divisible into that with two positions and that with five positions [in the cognitive series]. For of these, (40) one is 'associated-with-joy' because of its presence when entirely desirable objects occur; and it has two positions [in the cognitive series] because it occurs as investigating at the five doors and as registration at the end of impulsion. (41) The other kind is 'associated-with-equanimity' because of its presence when desirable-neutral objects occur, and it has five positions since it occurs as investigation, registration, rebirth-linking, life-continuum, and death. 36007 From: Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi, Robert and Herman - In a message dated 9/4/04 6:19:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Herman, > Thanks for this excellent post. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: But here comes Horrible Howard with a mixed review! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------- In > > dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > >>I wrote to Sarah along the lines that the doctrine of anatta for > a > >person seeking to exercise control in the world could be a > >detrimental thing. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Misunderstanding of just about anything is always possible. But the Buddha never held back on the Dhamma. He declared himself, I believe, to not be a "closed-fist" teacher. Anatta is the core of his teaching. It is a fair assumption, I would say, that all people seek to exercise control over things, though ariyans surely understand this differently from worldings. The Buddha provided medicine when a monk was ill, he taught people when they requested a teaching, and he moved into the shade when that was called for. So, speaking conventionally, the Buddha sought to exercise control, and he did exercise control. -------------------------------------------------------- >I also wrote that I didn't think the Buddha > > >taught anatta to worldlings intent on remaining so. I also wrote > >that anatta is not theory, it is practice only. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Anatta is fact ... period. A description of it suitable to hear, read, and think about is theory. Following the Buddha's cultivational path - sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na bhavana leads to the direct knowledge of the facts of anatta, and anicca, and dukkha, and that is the practice. --------------------------------------------------------- > > > >There is, in my book, no theoretical activity. > >Activity is always practical. So studyfully reading the Abhidhamma > >or a compendium thereof is a practice. It is what one is doing. > ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Agreed. Theory is the content of a teaching, particularly a teaching of "how things are". Studying the theory taught by the Buddha is practice - an important part of Buddhist practice, but extremely far from the whole of it. --------------------------------------------------------- >All > > >day long people do stuff with intentions along the lines of "I am > >doing this, I am not doing this". Now, studying the Abhidhamma is > no > >different. People set out to study conditionality, as a purposeful > >self. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Reading and thinking about it is important intellectual activity, but only that. ------------------------------------------- >There may well be moments during such activity in which a > > >little light flashes and a silent speech balloon displays "This is > >all conditionality. There is no self". The assumption that this > >little revelation occured due to the purposeful study as a self of a > >book is highly conjectural. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Agreed. But - a cautionary, here: Insights don't arise randomly or by "dumb luck". Continued practice, including study and intellectual contemplation, guarding the senses, maintaining ongoing mindfulness (as possible), and engaging in formal samatha and vipassana bhavana as laid out by the Buddha, will set up conditions that cultivate the mind and lead it to freedom. -------------------------------------------- >The occurence of these revelations > seems > >to be completely beyond prediction, and they may well occur while > >reading a phone book or any other activity for that matter. -------------------------------------------- Howard: True, beyond prediction but not beyond cultivation. And they may well occur - in fact will probably occur - during such ordinary circumstances as you mention and as symbolized in the Zen tradition by enlightenment upon hearing a pebble sharply strike a bamboo. --------------------------------------------- > >+++++++++++ > I think so. And we can study the Abhidhamma and even puff up the idea > of self: , so proud of "knowing" there is no self. So, nothing is > easy when it comes to developing proper understanding. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Agreed. ----------------------------------------------- The Abhidhamma > > is a medicine to fight the disease of self-view, but if could even > worsen the disease if not applied properly. > Robert > > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36008 From: Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 0:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Karunadasa Hi, Herman (and Joop and all) - In a message dated 9/4/04 6:23:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi Joop and all, > > Thanks for the link. I thoroughly enjoy reading the esaay. I have a > question that you or others may wish to discuss further with me. > > > > >Time and Space: The Abhidhamma Perspective > >Y. Karunadasa, > >Postgraduate Institute of Pali and Buddhist Studies > > > >The essay can now be found on: > >http://www.indology.net/article5.html > >http://www.orientalia.org/printout594.html > > > > Quoted from the above: > "What emerges from this Abhidhamma doctrine of dhammas is a critical > realism, one which (unlike idealism) recognizes the distinctness of > the world from the experiencing subject yet also distinguishes > between those types of entities that truly exist independently of > the cognitive act and those that owe their being to the act of > cognition itself. " > > I do not understand how anything can be known about entities that > truly exist independently of the cognitive act. How does one arrive > at such a position? Can anyone shed some light on this? > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Nor can I understand it. That such alleged "knowing" is indefensible I believe is, in fact, the basis for all phenomenalist positions. (I can understand inferring the existence of such entities - though I do not do so, but I do *not* understand a claim of knowledge in this regard.) ------------------------------------------------------ > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36009 From: Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 4:08pm Subject: VismXIV 97, 98 review 97. (39) [The resultant] 'mind-element' has the characteristic of cognizing [respectively] visible data, etc., immediately next to (34)-(38) eye consciousness, and so on. Its function is to receive visible data, and so on. It is manifested as the state [of receiving] corresponding to that [last-mentioned function].37 Its proximate cause is the departure of eye-consciousness, and so on. (40)-(41) Also the twofold resultant 'mind-consciousness-element without root cause' with the function of investigating, etc., has as its characteristic the cognizing of the six kinds of objects. Its function is that of investigating, and so on. It is manifested as the state [of investigating] corresponding to that [last-mentioned function]. Its proximate cause is the heart-basis. 98. But it is classed according to its association with joy or with equanimity, and according to its being divisible into that with two positions and that with five positions [in the cognitive series]. For of these, (40) one is 'associated-with-joy' because of its presence when entirely desirable objects occur; and it has two positions [in the cognitive series] because it occurs as investigating at the five doors and as registration at the end of impulsion. (41) The other kind is 'associated-with-equanimity' because of its presence when desirable-neutral objects occur, and it has five positions since it occurs as investigation, registration, rebirth-linking, life-continuum, and death. 36010 From: robmoult Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 4:40pm Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > I've just started studying Cetasikas so would be very interested in a > group like this if Andrew L or anyone else wants to start to post passages. > (I would do it but I'll be posting passages from "Deeds of Merit".) > > In the meantime, a question. In chapter one we read that "some cittas are > accompanied only by the universals, other are accompanied by several more > cetasikas in addition." For some reason I am curious to know which cetasikas > are accompanied only by the universals and if there is any particular > significance to them. Thanks in advance. There are ten cittas which contain only the seven universal cetasikas. They are the sense consciousness cittas; five (one for each of the senses) are the result of result of past wholesome deeds and are called kusala vipaka sense consciousness cittas and the other five are the result of past unwholesome deeds and are called akusala vipaka sense consciousness cittas. These cittas perform the basic functions of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching. Appendix III (page 100 - 101) of my book provides a chart of which cetasikas are found in each citta. Metta, Rob M :-) 36011 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 7:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" > wrote: > > What is this, like reflecting on dhammapada verses or the ten > > un/wholesome actions? Or do you also mean the greater discourses > like > > those on right view, and if so, do you meditate on them also or just > > try to put together a cognitive understanding as you read. > > > > This to me means understanding things like the sixfold sense base > and > > dependent origination on an intellectual or thinking level. Is that > > what you meant > ++++++++++++ > Dear Andrew, > > Yes. There are levels upon levels of panna (understanding). When we > think > about impermanence, for instance, that nothing lasts even for a > split second, that every moment is conditioned, this is a level > of panna. However it is not the same as direct understanding. > Another level is when we consider and see as realities are > arising and passing away. So we realize to a degree, as it is > happening, > that dhammas are changing rapidly and that there is no self > involved. Right, I have had this level of understanding of seeing the nature of objects after some meditation. I surmise it can be sustained if clear comprehension of the domain is applied. > We see that citta takes sound for an object and the > next moment colour and then concept and there is understanding > of how uncontrollable it is. I don't understand how this is acheived. I know that citta can only take one object at a time, but I haven't seen this as it actually is. I suppose it might come about by slowing things down and guarding the sense doors. > We might imagine this is now > direct understanding of rise and fall but I call this "thinking in > the present moment." > There is not yet penetration of the > visesa-lakkhana, characteristics of nama and rupa. Direct > awareness can come in between the moments of thinking or it can > come even without such thinking. > I might be accepting that we have to wait for such occasions of awareness to arise, rather than actively cultivating it. > According to the Visuddhimagga until the first stage of > vipasssana nana though, the difference between nama and rupa is > not properly understood. For vipassana to arise there must be a > firm intellectual understanding of anatta and this comes about > by considering the teachings carefully and wisely and also by > repeated testing and study of dhammas in the present moment. You are making this sound harder than it is. Anatta follows naturally from anicca, and once we see one of the three characteristics in reality we've fulfilled this criterion, no? > As > these levels of understanding develop there is more > comprehension of anicca, dukkha and anatta but not until later > stages are they clearly seen. The process is a very gradual one > that reduces self to one moment only. Ah. Sort of a slowing down of everything? I've had an experience where I saw anicca and anatta in the garbage cans in front of my house, they were shifting and changing. I failed to maintain this clear comprehension following that experience, though, but I do think that that was a fairly good degree of penetration or understanding into reality or whatever you want to call it. > > Now I have a slight pain around my eye, that is the concept, the > thinking. The realities, the dhammas, include akusala > vipaka through the bodysense (painful feeling) and there are > cittas that experience heat and hardness. So be mindful of nama and rupa as it were, or the four elements and painful feeling. I think I have to check my understanding of Abhidharma, Im not getting how a painful feeling can be unwholesome. Isnt it just a state of consciousness that must be? The painful feeling can be a result of unwholesomeness if that's why it's akusala vipaka I guess I can accept that but shouldn't 'vedana' be in there somewhere? > When we think about such painful or pleasant feelings is it > "me' who is having pain or is self reduced to one moment? Usually we > believe that 'I' am > thinking, "I" am seeing, feeling, hearing. But the Dhamma helps to > break down the > idea of a whole, a person. The next moment is a new 'I' at a > new location at the eyedoor or eardoor or bodydoor or mindoor. So > uncontrollable and > temporary. And this is understanding at the level of pondering the > Dhamma. > > So we should just experience or know that there is painful feeling, no I or self. I think you're saying we have to investigate every instance of "I see" or "I hear" and maybe look for where the underlying "I" is for seeing what it really is. My method would more be to practise complete mindfulness, knowing "painful feeling," "hearing neutral," "seeing pleasant," and break it all down to identifying the phenomenon without taking any of it as self- but this would be on my mindfulness meditation walks, which I have not yet incorporated into daily life, which is what your approach is geared to from what I can gather. So it's a difference of how much we are mindful of at a time. You want to be mindful of one nama and one rupa at a time, as awareness shifts. I want to try to be mindful of the whole load of them simultaneously. /me smiles. This isn't to say that truly we can be mindful of them all at once, but to be 100% mindful is to be mindful of as much as possible, each split second reality into the next, so if I have a pleasant feeling in my toe and a neutral feeling in my hand they are noted within a few seconds or less time frame of one another - and the whole body is like that. > > > > > > > Oooh. What are the imitation nanas anyway, how would one go about > > discerning whether they are going through the 'true' nanas or not. > > ++++++++++++ > It depends on many factors whether there will be discernment or not. > If there is attachment to the idea of being a sotapanna or one who > has attained stages of insight then it is likely that one will take > some strange experiences as signs of progress. > I was at a temple in thailand and a monk from another Asian country > was staying there. He was a vipassana instructor at a famous temple > in his country. But the teacher at this temple didn't believe in the > methods he followed and told him he had no insight at all and that he > was just fooling himself. (This was after several discussions). The > monk was brave enough to be able to give up his clinging to progress > and could start in the right way. Some can't. > > There is not a need to try to discern whether one has had a stage of > insight because it is panna which knows it. It will see clearly. > What is needed is to know the difference between panna and lobha > (clinging). If there is always clinging to the idea of having had > insight or clinging to getting it then that blocks actual panna from > arising. > It is not easy to have understanding of the dhamma arising now - but > that is all we need to know. When there is hoping that one has > attained this or that stage what is present? There is clinging > (lobha) - and that is the time to discern lobha. Oh boy. Now youve got me a bit discouraged that we have even more lobha than I thought to root out. I follow you on the part about mistaken insight, I have had these 'insight'-like experiences that I wouldn't take for stages of enlightenment, but if we are practising vipassana and seeing the true nature of phenomenon, shouldn't we be well-into rooting out craving in earnest, and if that is so, have no clinging whatsoever? Or am I being too forward? Regards, AL > > Robertk 36012 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 7:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg]details of the Tiika dear Nina, Jon and others, I agree with Jon here, Nina. However, I probably read less of it than Jon, and some of, in fact a lot of it goes over my head, and I put that down to my inability to sit still long enuff to study it!!!! too easily distracted. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Nina > > Just to say that I find the detail from the Tika invaluable, and I very > much appreciate the time and effort you put into it, and the understanding > you bring to bear on these difficult areas. > > Of course, much of the material is far in advance of my direct experience, > but it is nevertheless useful to reflect upon. I hear many of the same > areas covered on the MP3 recordings that I listen to on my daily walks > (presently, the sobhana dhamma series). > > I hope you will be encouraged to continue with it to the extent that you > can find time, among your many current projects. I marvel at your output! > > Jon > > --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > > > Dear Sarah, (and Larry also), > ... > > N: I did not take up this detailed point about the measure of visible > > object > > which I did not understand in my Tiika transl, I just skipped it. I > > skipped > > large parts! I just saved it as a Q. for Bgk. > > I try to make choices in the Tiika, it is too long at times. But I would > > like your advice. > > With each Intro I try to explain the main points so that people do not > > get > > drowned in terms. > > I spend a lot of time with it, but if it is not useful I better stop. In > > fact, I am always short of time, I do not mind. > ... > > N: I try as best as I can not to forget the purpose, with whatever I am > > doing or writing, all day long. Also my translation of the Co. to > > Rahula, I > > just had this goal in mind. > > Sarah and Larry, are there too many details in my Tiika work? I need to > > know > > this. > > I talked to Lodewijk about it and he said that when he hears: only > > reality > > now, we have to know seeing now, it is not helpful for him. Azita: I remember Ven. Dhammadharo often bringing the conversation back to " is there seeing now" or "what is appearing now - is it nama or rupa". However, I see now that its not enuff just to hear those words and think that everything else will 'fall into place' as i have probably believed for years. There is sooooo much more to understand and doing nothing in case I do the wrong thing and go the wrong way is as useless as not even hearing the Dhamma. In fact it may be worse, taking the Dhamma the wrong way, like taking that poisonous snake by the tail. He always > > has > > trouble when he attends sessions in Bgk and hears this. It is very > > personal, > > different for each individual what is helpful. We agreed that there are > > many > > different kinds of people on a forum. People need to hear the Dhamma > > from > > different angles. He thinks that I should continue as I think good. > > Maybe I > > skip even more of the text, that saves time and energy. > > I try to always keep in mind: can it help people to understand realities > > now, as best as I can. But if you have time it will be appreciated if > > you > > also remind me and others about the goal of the study. You did this at > > the > > beginning of this Visuddhimagga thread. > > Nina. Yes, the goal of the study is different for different people I suppose, depending on their understanding. As it has been stated before, some people know the Tipitika thro, but are they wise regarding true knowledge of paramatta dhammas. I think even my goal changes at times, sometimes I just want to know it all and life would be easier :-) and sometimes I don't think I have a goal, at least not consciously, I just sit in front of this computor and read or pick up a book, or sometimes just sit and think about Dhamma. Keep up the enormously good, helpful work, Nina. You are an inspiration, truly. Patience, courage and good cheer Azita. 36013 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 8:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner Dear Phil, Sarah and others, I am interested in also studying 'Cetasikas'. Before I start posting I need to know if anything has been posted to date, and how should we do this - start from the beginning, I guess, eg with the Universals. Phil, are you reading Nina's 'Cetasikas' or are you studying something else? I have a copy of Nina's book so I could start from that. Sarah, I see you have made a suggestion below about not using the Zolag site. Is the one on RobK's site a different pub. or is it Nina's? Will wait for a reply before I post anything. Patience, courage and good cheer Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > > Hello All, > > I've just started studying Cetasikas so would be very interested in a > group like this if Andrew L or anyone else wants to start to post passages. > (I would do it but I'll be posting passages from "Deeds of Merit".) > > In the meantime, a question. In chapter one we read that "some cittas are > accompanied only by the universals, other are accompanied by several more > cetasikas in addition." For some reason I am curious to know which cetasikas > are accompanied only by the universals and if there is any particular > significance to them. Thanks in advance. > > Metta, > Phil > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "sarah abbott" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 23, 2004 2:05 PM > Subject: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner > > > > > > Hi Andrew L (& All), > > > > We've discussed the value of studying 'Cetasikas' a little more formally > > here and I think you asked for my suggestions on this. We've also had one > > or two discussions on dana and sharing and I'm wondering if they can be > > linked up here. > > > > What would be really helpful for the group (imho) would be if we could all > > start together from the beginning (from the intro or even the preface). > > Would you be willing to post a small section, say one or two paragraphs, > > daily or every few days (excluding days you're too busy or not feeling up > > to it)? If you would then (in the same post or better still in a separate > > post), add any comments or brief qus, we'd all benefit further. > > > > If you're interested in this as a kind of dana, I'd suggest you use this > > version at RobK's website as the Zolag ones are a little difficult to > > access. > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > > > > .....snip...... > > Back to Cetasikas - to get an idea of a reasonable length and way ADL was > > done, I've just picked out 2 random posts of Larry's for you to look at. I > > think he dropped the numbering of paragraphs after a while - keeping it > > simple and easy: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13028 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13047 > > > > He'd just press on regardless of whether there was feedback or not which > > obviously varies at different times and I was and am extremely grateful to > > him for this. > > > > Even if you just posted one a week, I'd be glad. I've had this book in > > mind for a study corner for a long time. > > > > Let me know what you think. > > > > Nina, I and others will be glad to contribute, I know. > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > > p.s I can also help post the extracts if it helps, but would prefer it to > > be someone else really;-) > > =================== 36014 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 8:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner (cittas study corner?) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > > Hello All, > > I've just started studying Cetasikas so would be very interested in a > group like this if Andrew L or anyone else wants to start to post passages. > (I would do it but I'll be posting passages from "Deeds of Merit".) > Phil, I think I am going to try to read through "Abhidharma in Daily Life" first, so I will pose some questions here. Ch3. There is the example given of a musical composer who moves his hand due to citta. I thought citta was only consciousness, only experiencing something, not the actor, director, or controller of other functions. How can I reconcile these two views? I especially like the section on karma and how beings are the bearers of their actions. This bit too: 'But, your reverence, I declare not that there is any making an end of ill without reaching world's end. Nay, your reverence, in this very fathom-long body, along with its perceptions and thoughts, I proclaim the world to be, likewise the origin of the world and the making of the world to end, likewise the practice going to the ending of the world.' I see these as being parallel to the noble truths, which need to be seen with proper wisdom. I say this because I've already seen the world in here, now I just need to see the other three :-) Moving onto ch4. In the different types of lobha-mula-cittas, which wrong views are there that accompany the cittas? Wrong views of self, or is it that there are no results of good or bad deeds? Self would seem the most likely wrong view because it can be produced just by mistakenly seeing self where it doesnt exist. I do not see how what a wrong view of the fruit & result of good and bad deeds has to do with a pleasant feeling rooted in attachment, maybe someone could illuminate that for me. That's all for now. peace, AL 36015 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 8:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" <> > (clinging). If there is always clinging to the idea of having had > > insight or clinging to getting it then that blocks actual panna from > > arising. > > It is not easy to have understanding of the dhamma arising now - but > > that is all we need to know. When there is hoping that one has > > attained this or that stage what is present? There is clinging > > (lobha) - and that is the time to discern lobha. > ++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Oh boy. Now youve got me a bit discouraged that we have even more > lobha than I thought to root out. I follow you on the part about > mistaken insight, I have had these 'insight'-like experiences that I > wouldn't take for stages of enlightenment, but if we are practising > vipassana and seeing the true nature of phenomenon, shouldn't we be > well-into rooting out craving in earnest, and if that is so, have no > clinging whatsoever? Or am I being too forward? > > +++++++ Dear Andrew, I'll come back to the rest of your post later, you really consider well. Your reaction is much the same as mine when I started to grasp that it was all more sublime and harder than I had taken it for - especially as I already had the idea it was very hard! But slowly I was able to settle back and calm down and take it in a 'one moment at a time' way (to take off the famous line from alcoholics anonymous). What vipassana does initially (i.e maybe during this whole life)is to break down the view of self. Thus craving for sense pleasures may still be strong, one may still have intense emotions at times. (although they are seen in a more detached way because they are understood to be conditioned.) Even sotapannas like Ananda and Anathapindika cried sometimes, and the sotapanna Visakkha had many children and enjoyed rich clothing. We are not sotapanna so how much more likely are we to be swayed by the eight worldy ways, but we can learn even from our coarse reactions. This moment right now could be one of unpleasant feeling: if it is can we be perfectly content to understand unpleasant feeling? Or do we think we need some better object? Or if the present moment is one of craving do we think we must try to stop the craving, or are we instead ready to understand it? Venerable Upavanna was one of the Buddha's attendants before Ananda. He asked the Buddha (Samyutta, salayanata vagga 70 p.1154 Bodhi)"in what way is the Dhamma directly visible (sanditthiko Dhamma), immediate…to be personally experienced by the wise? Here, Upavana, having seen a form with the eye a bhikkhu experiences the form as well as lust for the form. He understands that lust for the forms exists internally thus: `there is in me lust for forms internally.' Since that is so Upavana the Dhamma is directly visible, immediate…"" The sutta repeats for the other senses. This is very profound. The way of samatha is to overcome and supress the hindrances especially craving. The way of vipassana is to understand the present moment – even if that is craving. When craving or any hindrance is known as anatta, a little bit of ignorance is overcome: the conditioned nature of craving is seen. Robert 36016 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 11:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner Dear Phil, Azita, AL, Nina & All, After I suggested that Al post the extracts, I realized this might be too much of a commitment for a relative newcomer to the list and also it would be easier for someone with a little more familiarity with it perhaps and also with a hard copy for easy reference. As I've been talking about it for sometime and as there is enough interest (i.e at least two or three people;-)), I'll start posting extracts beginning with the ‘Contents’ for anyone to have an overview first of where we're heading. When Azita, Nina, I and others head off for India in just over a month, perhaps Phil or AL can post the extracts during that period to keep the momentum and interest going in our absence. (I'll coordinate with you at the time and we can discuss about who continues after that). ***** Azita & All, I think I’ll use RobK’s site for the text simply because it’s easier for me to read it there and find my way around. Usually Nina does any updating of her texts on Zolag in the first instance, so there may be minor errors that haven’t been updated on other sites or errors in scanning, but in this case, I’d be surprised if we came across many. It’s exactly the same text on both sites. ***** Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ * cetfinal.txt * cetfinal.pdf * cetfinal.rtf * cetfinal.html ‘Cetasikas’,published 1999 published by zolag • London S: I’d like to point out a couple of things just once here before we start: a) Although the text was only published in 1999 by Alan Weller (Zolag)*, it was written by Nina over a period of years in the late 70s when she’d send out a chapter at a time to a few of us and we’d literally paste in corrections, before sets of ‘the Universals’, ‘the Particulars’ and so on were collated together over time, retyped by Pinna** (as I vaguely recall) and these were then distributed in quantities by Jon from Thailand, me in England and others elsewhere. I’m just mentioning this because someone once suggested on DSG that it was a recent e-book only copied from other e-books which was completely erroneous. b) I’d like to encourage anyone with interest in the text to consider purchasing the text or putting it on a ‘present list’. It has been one of our most treasured and well-used books and is beautifully laid out. (I believe it’s available from Amazon or Wisdom uk - if anyone else knows exactly where, pls share). Metta, Sarah ======== *Alan is an old school friend of mine whom I’ve known for well over 30 years. After I returned from trips to India and Sri Lanka he’d visit me in our Sussex garden with a very quick and keen interest in the Abhidhamma and lots and lots of questions. Later he made trips himself to join Nina and K.Sujin. He’s rather busy with young children and other commitments these days, but keeps promising to join us here soon. Hope so, Alan if you’re reading this. ‘ZOLAG’ stands for the initials of his family members. **Pinna is another friend that some of us have known for a very long time. Nina, you asked after her, but we didn’t see Pinna in Bangkok. You told me she’s working on the final editing of your excellent translation of K.Sujin’s book: ‘Survey of Paramattha Dhammas’,which will be published soon in Bangkok. As you said, it is very detailed. It's also full of great reminders and truths extracted from the Texts. I know many people like you, RobK, MikeN and now Pinna have worked hard on preparing this text and will be very glad for any comments or questions on it anytime too. http://www.abhidhamma.org/Preface%20to%20paramattha.htm 36017 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 4, 2004 11:48pm Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner1-Contents Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Comments, questions and different views are very welcome;-) An overview of where we're heading at snail's pace. ****** Contents Preface Introduction Part I: The Universals Chapter 1 Contact (phassa) Chapter 2 Feeling (vedana) Chapter 3 Perception (sanna) Chapter 4 Volition (cetana) Chapter 5 Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death Chapter 6 Concentration (ekaggata) Chapter 7 Vitality (jivitindriya) and Attention (manasikara) Part II: The Particulars (Pakinnaka) Chapter 8 Applied thinking (vitakka), sustained thinking (vicara) Chapter 9 Determination (adhimokkha) and Energy (viriya) Chapter 10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path Chapter 11 Enthusiasm (piti) Chapter 12 Zeal (chanda) Part III: Akusala Cetasikas Chapter 13 Introduction Chapter 14 Ignorance, Shamelessness, Recklessness and Restlessness Chapter 15 Attachment (lobha) Chapter 16 Wrong View (ditthi) Chapter 17 Conceit (mana) Chapter 18 Aversion (dosa) Chapter 19 Envy (issa), Stinginess (macchariya), Regret (kukkucca) Chapter 20 Sloth (thina), Tropor (middha) and Doubt (vicikiccha) Chapter 21 Different Groups of Defilements Part I Chapter 22 Different Groups of Defilements Part II Chapter 23 Different Groups of Defilements Part III Part IV: Beautiful Cetasikas (Sobhana cetasikas) Chapter 24 Introduction Chapter 25 Confidence (saddha) Chapter 26 Mindfulness (sati) Chapter 27 Moral Shame and Fear of Blame (hiri and ottappa) Chapter 28 Non-Attachment (alobha) Chapter 29 Non-Aversion (adosa) Chapter 30 Equanimity (tatramajjhattata) Chapter 31 Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas Chapter 32 The Three Abstinences (virati-cetasikas) Chapter 33 Compassion (karuna) and Sympathetic Joy (mudita) Chapter 34 Understanding (panna) Chapter 35 The Stages of Insight Chapter 36 Wholesome Deeds Appendix and Glossary Appendix 1 Appendix to Chapter 2, Feelings Appendix 2 Appendix to Chapter 5 Appendix 3 Appendix to Chapter 8 Appendix 4 Appendix to Chapter 9 Appendix 5 Appendix to Chapter 11 Appendix 6 Appendix to Chapter 12 Appendix 7 Appendix to Chapter 20 Appendix 8 Appendix to Chapter 31 Appendix 9 The Stages of lnsight Glossary ***** Metta, Sarah ===== 36018 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 1:14am Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Preface ******* This book deals with the operations of the mind, citta, and its accompanying mental factors, cetasikas. A detailed study of the many types of cetasikas will help the reader to know his own defilements and to develop good qualities and eventually, to eradicate all defilements. Defilements and good qualities are different types of cetasika. In this study I refer to my book Abhidhamma in Daily Life which deals with the basic points of the Abhidhamma. It is useful to read this book first in order to understand my study on cetasikas. The reader may wonder what the purpose is of the many Pali terms used in this book. In the course of his study he will see that the Pali terms are helpful for precision of understanding. I have used the Pali terms next to their English equivalents but the English terms often have a specific meaning in the context of Western psychology or philosophy. We should try to understand the correct meaning rendered by the Pali terms. In this study on cetasikas I have quoted from the first book of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani ( Buddhist Psychological Ethics ). I also used Buddhaghosa's commentary to this book, the Atthasalini ( in English: The Expositor ) and his encyclopedia on Buddhism, the Visuddhimagga ( in English : The Path of Purification ). Buddhaghosa's commentaries date from the fifth century A.D. He edited in Sri Lanka old commentary works with utmost conscientiousness and translated them from Singhalese into Pali. The reader will be impressed by the discriminative, refined knowledge of all the details of the Buddha's teachings and by the vivid way he illustrates points of the teachings with examples. He continuously points to the goal: the development of insight in order to see realities as they are. I quoted from the suttas texts which deal with the development of all kinds of kusala, comprising the development of calm and the development of insight. These texts can encourage us to keep in mind the purpose of our study. [preface to be continued] ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 36019 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg]details of the Tiika, Larry, Htoo. Hi Larry and Htoo, thank you for the suggestions. Not so easy what to do. Larry, you say: can post a paragraph and you can give a short clarification, then we can > move on.> I could then only say something about the Vis. para, and leave the tiika, right? Htoo, you make a suggestion about discussions and summarizing these, but, there have to be people having discussions first, right? Larry, you could post for now 98 and 99, and I can deal with these together. But I need some time to look at the Tiika for more info. The contents of 98 and 99 hang together, but they are quite long. There are also the numbers from the Table at the back, but not everybody is able to look them up. The solution is that I just repeat. When the reader just looks at these paras, it will all be rather confusing, about the feelings, mind-element, mind-consciousness element, twofold, threefold, eightfold. So I would like to unraffle it carefully, so that it becomes easier to read and more meaningful for him personally. Oct 11 until Nov 6 we are in India. You could continue posting if you like, only no info from me. I start to get worried since you want to go through the Vis. three times during your life! How can we do this then? I shall think things over more and maybe Sarah also has ideas. While reading the tiika I will think more. But does anyone wants to have the Pali Vis. ? I need it all for my reading and it is no trouble for me. Should I post the Vis. Pali for each para? Let us say, when nobody says anything it is no. I also think that for those who do not know Pali the Tiika has less meaning, since often there are word explanations of the words used in the Vis. This gets lost in the translation. Nina. op 04-09-2004 01:26 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:> > L: I would rather that you decide. There are too many factors that I am > not aware of. 36020 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg]Howard's typo. Hi Howard, no, no, do not think in this way!!! So long as we have not attained enlightenment we are fools. Today I thought of your point and it is really worth while to consider it. I write more later on, adding something to it. I am tired now, we had a long, long walk over the heather. Nina op 03-09-2004 20:35 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> I don't know which passages you are referring to Sarah. I'll just make >> the foolowing comments ... > ============================== > I was just wondering whether my typo "foolowing" made you think of > "walLOWING in FOOLishness"! ;-)) 36021 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] What should I do Dear AL, op 01-09-2004 21:59 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: >> N: Let intellectual understanding grow naturally, depending on what >> interests you. There should not be an idea: now I do this, then I > will start >> to practise, there is so much self in the way, it really hinders.\ > > That's the thing. I'm not in a mode where I can put together an > understanding very easily. I'll read through something and "get" the > concepts but if I see a word down there and a concept up there, I'm > unable to put it together. Very tough, only on rare occasion am I > able to go through things and put together an understanding. N: Excellent. Seeing this is already a degree of understanding. Listening with respect, this means: considering and understanding what you hear. Recently I reflected on this more. You know, the listening has to be with kusala citta, but we all know that kusala citta is so rare. Many conditions are necessary for its arising. When the javana cittas are not intent on dana. sila or mental development, they are akusala cittas. Thus, mostly we think with akusala cittas. So, I know that many times I am listening, reading or studying, there are akusala cittas coming in between. We need to know this. You are already interested in the Dhamma and this is conditioned by past accumulations. You read and study and then confidence grows. This is most helpful for the arising of kusala citta. But at the same time it is of no use to cling to kusala and try to make it arise. A.L.:Same goes for Vism. I still want to get some kind of an understanding of > what I need to know for contemplation on consciousness so I can walk > this path, though. N: Shall we say an all round foundation knowledge of namas and rupas, not merely citta? This can be the basis of further development of understanding. A.L.So, let me know what you think is >>> necessary for contemplation of consciousness, taking into account of >>> the fact that I want to be mindful of *everything* going on in the >>> psycho-physical complex called Andrew, because 30 minutes of vipassana >>> a day will just not cut it. >> N: To be quite honest: no way. > Nina, yes way :) I've done it, ... (snipped) > OK, Nina, you are very adept at this, maybe you could give me some > idea on how the insight-knowledges arise. Do we have to be very > procedural in how we conduct our practise or do they arise naturally > with mindful observation of nama and rupa over time? N: We have to be patient and also persevere considering nama and rupa in daily life now. I am not adept at stages of insight, wrong address! Being procedural will not help at all. And I am also disinclined use the word observation, then it seems that there is a person who observes. It is not observing, but developing more understanding. Look at Rob K's post: before deeper levels can arise... For some reason I sometimes see people disdaining theory > about anatta - but theory is the first step. And that first step has to be a broad, solid base otherwise the practice will go wrong in some way.> Nina. 36022 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] child, villager, money changer. Hi Larry, op 04-09-2004 01:37 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:> > One of the main points I get out of this analysis of understanding is > that conceptually understanding impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and > not self is profitable, that is to say kusala, and furthers one on the > mundane path. N: Conceptual understanding of the three characteristics is kusala, because when understanding arises, it means that it accompanies kusala citta. But such moments are rare. All the time we are just speculating about concepts we have to realize that we often think with akusala. L: Furthermore, any characterization of experience that doesn't include these three general characteristics is merely perception. N: Remembrance of the three characteristics without understanding is not helpful for the development of the Path, a child could sum them up. I will not say it cannot be kusala citta. The child may have confidence to learn the Dhamma. Remember our Vis. and tiika about kusala citta without understanding. The Buddha taught the Dhamma so that people would have understanding, and not merely remember the terms. You say, I would like to go step by step and not start with the three general characteristics. How could we have any understanding of them if we do not know that it is the impermanence etc. of citta, cetasika and rupa that has to be understood. The characteristics are characteristics *of* dhammas appearing at this very moment. I have to remind myself of this also! Intellectual understanding of realities is important, and that means, as I see it, beginning with citta, cetasika or rupa that presents itself now. We have to understand them first as nama and as rupa. Thus, when we consider more the sound now and begin to understand it as rupa,not the dog that is barking, not the traffic, I would not say that it is mere sañña. There is at least a beginning of pañña. But I realize more that this is a rare moment, since kusala citta is so rare compared with akusala citta. Since we have been talking about sañña and concepts, I think it useful to requote Sarah's post. There can be accumulation of past experiences, also thinking of concepts included, because each citta is succeeded by a following one. Thus, thinking of a concept in the past can be a natural supporting condition, pakatupanissaya paccaya, for thinking now of a concept. This can be with kusala citta or with akusala citta, but kusala citta is rare. It is very helpful to remember that also sañña is a condiitoned reality, otherwise we attach so much importance to my remembrance, my thinking. Nina. Quotes: K.Sujin referred to the accumulation of concepts when sa~n~naa (memory/perception) conditions thinking to arise and think about specific concepts, such as when “we remember who’s who.....there is the accumulation of concept, more than just reality. Again she repeated that “everything is accumulated - for example concepts such as the idea about the Buddha....We remember any reality at all, even visible object....all arammana (objects) which have been experienced and condition the experience now... Again she stressed that all experiences have pakatupanissaya paccaya as a conditioning factor (unless conditioned by the other upanissaya paccaya (decisive support conditions). For example, when seeing experiences a visible object, it leads to lots of concepts because they have been experienced before. Sarah. ****** 36023 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: child, villager, money changer. Dear Azita, op 04-09-2004 04:16 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > ....snip.... >> N: The cittas arising in the 5-door processes experience rupas, > sense >> objects. But the javanacittas that are not accompanied by pañña do > not know >> that the objects are rupas, thus, paramattha dhammas. Seeing sees > visible >> object but it does not know: this is visible object, a paramattha > dhamma. >> Sañña marks the object each moment so that it can be recognized and >> remembered. >> A: > This is clear to me, theoretically speaking - but I then wonder > why or how the thinking of so many concepts comes about. > When the object of thinking is concepts, are all these concepts > the manifestation of sanna? N: We should remember Sarah's post, see my answer to Larry, about natural strong dependence-condition. Such thinking of concepts is conditioned by former thinking, and of course sañña plays its part, since it accompanies each citta. >A:I understand that its not that simple, that there are other cittas > and cetasikas involved in 'thinking' as I currently know it, but it > seems sanna plays a big part. Is it the reason why sanna is a > khandha on its own? N: We cling so much to sañña, it blinds us, and then it prevents us to understand that dhammas are arising and falling away. All that we experience seems to last, and that is perversion of sañña, citta and wrong view. A. Sometimes 'I' want 'my sanna' to stop. There are things I don't > want to remember, and others I want , but its often the ones I don't > want that arise (sigh). N: We all have this. We cannot escape sañña. It shows that it is anatta. > .....snip..... A: Does the knowing of a nama or rupa precede the distinguishing of > kusala from akusala? For example, does panna know a nama from a rupa > before it knows kusala and akusala? Or once again, am I making it to > simple? N: This is a crucial point. Indeed, we cannot know precisely the characteristic of kusala as nama, of akusala as nama, before there is a very precise understanding of nama as nama and rupa as rupa, this is the first stage of insight. We only know roughly, in general, in a conceptual way what kusala and akusala are. We do not realize them as conditioned namas, we still take them for mine. That is not the way to really know them as they are. A. Sujin would say: we have to know first what dhamma, reality, is. But this is a point that needs a lot of explanation. Not easy to understand immediately. What is your opinion? Nina. 36024 From: Egbert Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 1:39am Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hi all, > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > Preface > ******* > This book deals with the operations of the mind, citta, and its accompanying mental factors, cetasikas. A detailed study of the many types of cetasikas will help the reader to know his own defilements and to develop good qualities and eventually, to eradicate all defilements. I'm very sorry, but my interest is in the teachings of the Buddha. Some of you will doubtlessly breathe a sigh of relief, I'm outta here. Thanks for putting up with me. Bye Herman 36025 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 2:00am Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hello Herman, (if you haven't signed out yet), Many of us, agreeing with the Arahats at the Buddhist Councils, regard all three baskets of the Tipitaka as the teachings of the Buddha. No sigh of relief at your going, mate - it was great having you back again for the last month or so - you'll be missed. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" 36026 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hi Herman, --- Egbert wrote: > I'm very sorry, but my interest is in the teachings of the Buddha. > Some of you will doubtlessly breathe a sigh of relief, I'm outta > here. > > Thanks for putting up with me. .... S: We all have this common interest here. Can we discuss the perceived discrepancy or problem further? I think it would be helpful. There will be no sighs of relief if you leave instead -- at least not from anyone I know of!! I also have a couple of other threads with you which I was planning to get back on tomorrow when I have more time to do them justice. I'll wait to hear from you first, perhaps. Metta, Sarah p.s I don't think anyone is asking for agreement here. The list is for constructive discussion as stipulated only and this usually follows when different views are shared;-) ====== 36027 From: jwromeijn Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 2:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Karunadasa Hallo Herman, Howard and all > …Herman stated: > >I do not understand how anything can be known about entities that > >truly exist independently of the cognitive act. How does one arrive > >at such a position? Can anyone shed some light on this? > ----------------------------------------------------- >Howard: >Nor can I understand it. That such alleged "knowing" is indefensible I >believe is, in fact, the basis for all phenomenalist positions. (I can >understand inferring the existence of such entities - though I do not do so, but I >do *not* understand a claim of knowledge in this regard.) ------------------------------------------------------ >With metta, >Howard Joop's reaction: I don't have THE answer but I can try because what Karunadasa said not really amazes me Some years ago I studied philosophy of knowledge (Popper, Kuhn etc.) and what I remember about that branch I will say that there are two answers: - Or the Buddha or arahants centuries after His paranibbana had omniscience and simply did know it; - Or the monks who composed the Abhidhamma stated it as a theory of reality (as today scientist has a theory of the Big Bang) and because there was so much empirical evidence that theit theory was right, after some time they thought that their "theory of reality" was reality itself, as a kind of shorthand. Perhaps it's not important but I prefer the second answer. In general: we don't have any "knowledge", only theories of realitity (and the first of those theories is the theory that reality does exist without me). Metta Joop 36028 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hi, Herman --- Egbert wrote: > Hi all, > > > > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > > ========================================== > > Preface > > ******* > > This book deals with the operations of the mind, citta, and > its accompanying mental factors, cetasikas. A detailed study of the > many types of cetasikas will help the reader to know his own > defilements and to develop good qualities and eventually, to > eradicate all defilements. > > > I'm very sorry, but my interest is in the teachings of the Buddha. I think you mean, the teachings of the Buddha as percieved by Herman and not anyone else ;-)) I am struggling to understand your objection to the passage above, specifically the implicit assertions that (a) intellectual study and understanding must precede direct knowledge, and (b) direct knowledge of defilements is part of vipassana. > Some of you will doubtlessly breathe a sigh of relief, I'm outta > here. > > Thanks for putting up with me. > > Bye > > Herman I've enjoyed having you around this time. Do consider a return soon. Jon PS I have some part prepared replies to earlier posts of yours that I hope to get off some time later today. 36029 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 5:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hello Herman I hope you're still around! >If any of that comes across as being disdainful, then I have >expressed myself rather poorly, and I ask people to accept that, >despite how I express myself, I am not disdainful of teachings on >conditionality (anatta). >I owe Phil a reply on anatta being practice only, and this post >seems a convenient and relevant vehicle. I hope you are reading >this, Phil :-). There is, in my book, no theoretical activity. >Activity is always practical. So studyfully reading the Abhidhamma >or a compendium thereof is a practice. It is what one is doing. I think it might seem that I leapt on your comment denying the value of anatta-as-theory. I couldn't help but do that because I am feeling more and more confident about my belief that building intellectual knowledge of the Buddha's teaching can be revolutionary in itself, long before direct seeing/knowing/being or whatever gerund is used to get at that non-theoretical deep experience in practice. And I have the fledgling devotee's over-enthusiasm, I guess. Also, I may have remembered another DSG member who some 4 or 5 months ago denied that the Buddha taught anatta, or something like that. Sorry if I sounded over aggressive about it. I agree with you that "reading the Abhidhamma or a compendium therof is practice. It is what one is doing." Well-said. There is such patience involved, reading the same thing several times before it even begins to sink in. I always liked the way Thich Nhat Hahn urged people to stay open to Dhamma, like dry earth to softly falling rain. Well, the "dry" and the "softly" is my addition. It takes time to soak in. The latest confirmation for me that gaining a theoretical knowledge is of value comes from "Discourse of Manifold Elements" MNIII, 115, quoted by Nina in Abhidhamma in Daily Life p.185: "Monks, there is not fear, trouble, misfortune for the wise man. Wherefore, monks, thinking, 'investigating we will become wise', this is how you must train yourself, monks." When this had been said, the venerable Ananda spoke thus to the Lord: "What is the stage at which is suffices to say, revered sir: "Investigating, the monk is wise?" "Ananda, as soon as a monk is skilled in the elements and skilled in the (sense-) fields and skilled in conditioned genesis and skilled in the possible and the impossible, it is at this stage, Amanda, that it suffices to say 'Investigating, the monk is wise.'" "But revered sir, at what stage does it suffice to say, "The monk is skilled in the elements?" "There are these eighteen elements, Ananda: the element of eye, the element of material shape, the element of visual consciousness;the element of ear, the elements of auditory consciousness.... .(and on for the other sense doors) When, Ananda, he *knows and sees* these eighteen elements, it is at this stage that it suffices to say, 'Then monk is skilled in the elements.'" Please note. "Knows and sees" Theory, and something more direct perhaps? I dare say that this "skilled in..." would apply to "cetasikas" or "conditions" or any other category of Dhamma compendia To me, this sutta hints at various degrees of "skill" - starting with the ability to enumerate using one's intellectual grasp, and movng gradually to a deeper knowing. To me, this sutta says Study Abhidhamma. Where can we better understand ("know"?) elements or other compendia in a more explicit way, intellectually, theoretically? Now, does this lead to "see?" Only conditions and are accumulations will tell, I suppose. Diligence, but that arises in a conditioned way as well. (p.s if someone could tell me about the verbs in Pali that are used here for "know" and "see" I'd be very grateful.) When I met Robert K for a talk, I said that I thought that if one stayed open to the Dhamma, and discussed it with good Dhamma friends, understanding would inevitably arise. He suggested otherwise, referring to folks he had met in Bangkok who had come to Dhamma talks for many years but had no few signs of deepening understanding. (Forgive me for paraphrasing, Rob.) So the movement from theory to direct knowledge is up in the air. The least we can do is get that theoretical foundation. As for anatta, I'll say again that in this beginner's opinion study and discussion and reflection/contemplation related to the khandas will point directly to a valuable theoretical understanding of anatta. But the above actions are practice, as you said. Anyways, I hope you'll be back soon. If not, you'll be missed. Metta, Phil 36030 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 5:59am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Herman --- Herman Hofman wrote: ... > Being a Westerner, I tend to assume sense-objects as being the five > classical senses. You are probably including mental objects as sense > objects, which I would agree with heartily. I read the Buddhist path of > renunciation going as far as renouncing the supports for consciousness. > > I think conventional seclusion acts as a support for a pleasant mental > abiding for those with reducing appetite for the world. I am sure that > it is a theoretically correct statement that once having reached a > degree of dispassion one is not likely to get reinfected to that level > of passion again, in any situation. But this process of acquiring > immunity from the world is a gradual one, and there is no benefit to > bathing in a pool of those contaminants to which one has developed > immunity. > > So why camp with the gypsies if one doesn't dance anymore :-) ? ... > I agree. I do not see the holy life as the only means to an end, but it > san be an end of the means :-) As I see it, the person who develops insight renounces attachments and craving in the sense of *outgrowing* them, much like a child outgrows his or her toys. That is to say, it's not necessarily a case of a deliberate or conscious giving up. Furthermore, the sequence and timing will be different for each individual depending on a number of factors. To my understanding, it is not part of the teaching that a comfortable lay life is in any sense an obstacle to the development of insight, since it is the degree of attachment to one's surroundings that is the crucial factor. A general lessening attachment doesn’t necessarily mean one will change one's lifestyle; and conversely a renunciate lifestyle is no proof of lack of clinging or wrong view. The homeless life is advantageous for those suited to (i.e., capable of) living it. It is not advantageous for everyone; in fact, it could well be disadvantageous for a person not suited to it (I think this is said in the suttas). Jon 36031 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 6:01am Subject: RE: [dsg]Dhammas only? Hi, Herman --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon and anyone, > > Jon wrote: > > The focus of the teachings is not concepts but dhammas. > > ========== > > What category do paccaya/conditions/relations go in? Are they concepts > or dhammas? > > And what would you call anicca, anatta and dukkha? Concepts or dhammas? > > Is there no room for any other ontological states? These are good questions. Anicca/dukkha/anatta are characteristics (Pali: lakkhana) of dhammas. The characteristic of a dhamma becomes apparent gradually as direct understanding of the dhamma is developed. In the suttas it talks about the five aggregates (i.e., dhammas) being seen 'as they truly are, as anicca/dukkha/anatta". In other words, these characteristics are intrinsic aspects of dhammas. They are not fully understood (penetrated) until enlightenment is attained. A condition (Pali: paccaya) describes the relationship pertaining between 2 or more dhammas. Again, this is something that becomes more apparent as the direct understanding of different dhammas grows (but really only occurs, I believe, when insight is fairly well advanced). As for 'other ontological states', I couldn't say. All I know is that the Buddha claimed that he taught everything that was necessary for liberation (but that there was much more he knew that was not necessary to be known). I hope this answers your question. Jon 36032 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 6:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flippin off the moon Hi, Ben --- Sujjhana Bhinnatta wrote: ... > Ben: Woah, missed the point completely, but thats okay. Being skeptical > of a > viewpoint does not necessitate rejececting that viewpoint. It means not > clinging to it as factual until it has been verified by your own > experience > (IMHO a much wiser way of dealing with things). In fact Jon, I would > venture > that many in DSG have a great deal to be gained from studying the views > of > the Prajnaparamita, Kammathana, or Chan schools which, after several > hundred > years of dealing with the pedantry of the paramattha dhamma realists, > had > developed some very skillfull ways of avoiding the quagmire of clinging > to > "realities." Interesting approach, Ben. But I question the value of studying the views of other schools of thought, rather than the suttas and commentaries themselves, which are the best record there is of what the Buddha said. If there is anything to be learned, it will be in the suttas and commentaries. It is true that the views of other individuals as to how those texts and commentaries should be read may be useful, but in the end anything that is not directly from the texts has to be judged against the texts themselves. ... > Ben: I thought I did a pretty good job in my last post, but alas, I was > mistaken. I am well aware of the vultures lying in wait for the answer > to > this one. No matter how I formulate the words to answer you, they are > still > empty. *You* have to add the meaning, which is peppered with your own > opinions and memories, and therefore these words you read and comprehend > are > never quite what I had in mind when I typed them. > > The question of what is the 'wisdom of the middle way' is not as > important > as the question of who is asking or who wants to know. But if you are > speaking for the group, then there are a lot of who's out there being > very > 'interested in' the answer to such a question. Therefore I say to all > the > who's: I'm not sure how the sutra quote you gave (which I have snipped) answers the question of your own view of the development of insight, and the importance of jhana to that. Most sutta passages are open to more than one interpretation). I would be interested to hear in your own words how you understand the middle way to have been taught. Jon 36033 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 6:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking and thoughts -- status of Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: ... > That formulation is closer to the way I see matters, though the > phrase > "the consciousness that thinks (i.e., has a thought as object)" doesn't > quite > sit right with me. As I see it, there are mental operations called > "thoughts" > but better called "thinkings" that are nothing but fleeting events that > occur, and I do not think of there being a "consciousness" as one thing > that > apprehends a "thought" as another thing. I just countenance an > experiential event > that I call a "thought" which is neither subject nor object, but is just > a > passing event. That event *seems* to be a "thought OF something" - that > is, it > seems to point to, or reference, something. Often, that apparent > referencing is > pure illusion. In fact, it's probably so that *always* that referencing > is > illusory, because even when the "something" intended to be pointed to is > a > paramattha dhamma, the experience of "thinking of that dhamma" is never > the same as > the direct experiencing of the actual dhamma, so thinking never > references what > it is intended to reference. > > With metta, > Howard While the world may appear to us as a world of experiential events, the more important issue is whether that was the world as taught by the Buddha (our own views of the way things are are notoriously skewed). In this regard it seems to me that in his teachings on the five aggregates, the six sense bases and the elements the Buddha described a world or worlds where the so-called experiential event of seeing is in actuality an instance of the seeing-consciousness dhamma experiencing the visible-object dhamma as its object, and where the so-called experiential event of thinking is in actuality an instance of the thinking-consciousness dhamma experiencing concept as its object. The Buddha did not as I understand it teach a dhamma of the event of seeing or thinking. I may have mistaken what you say above (if so, my apologies), but I don't think the scenario you describe fits with the sutta references to the five aggregates, the six sense-bases and the elements. Jon 36034 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner (cittas study corner?) Hello AL > Phil, > > I think I am going to try to read through "Abhidharma in Daily Life" > first, so I will pose some questions here. Ph: Get ready to have your socks rocked, amigo. ADL rules. May I also recommend the book that I read at the same time as ADL? It's Nina on the Perfections and it can be found here: http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm I found that it was a very helpful companion book with ADL. Well, when I started ADL I had far less understanding of Abhidhamma elements/terminolgy than you already clearly have, so it was a bit overwhelming. The book on the Perfections, with a lot more daily life references, put the Abhidhamma terms in a comfortable context. That suited my accumulations - no reason it would yours. But I think of that term you used - "established in virtue" - and think of the Paramis, the Perfections. Although we know that in the absolute sense there are no people, we also know that there *are* people, and in the Perfections we find humanity "established in virtue" in a very inspiring way. Please do join in on the material from "Cetasikas" as it gets posted too. And sorry, I still owe you a reply in that other thread - you asked me to tell you more about my two insight experiences - but it won't be tonight. Some day, I hope. I need time to fabricate them! (haha) AL > Ch3. There is the example given of a musical composer who moves his > hand due to citta. I thought citta was only consciousness, only > experiencing something, not the actor, director, or controller of > other functions. How can I reconcile these two views? Ph: I'm not the person who should answer these kind of questions, but I wonder if the confusion arises from the thing that confused me too - sometimes citta is used to mean only consciousness, sometimes it is used to mean citta plus cetasikas. Because of this, Rob M uses the term "mental state" in his book and DSG posts to refer to the latter.. I would agree that if it is citta meaning only consiousness, it would seem surprising that the conductor's hand wouldn't be moved by it. AL P> I especially like the section on karma and how beings are the bearers > of their actions. Ph: Very liberating. I like the thing I found in the above book on the Perfections about how by remembering that others are owners of their kamma and not responding in anger we can pay off our debt of kamma as well. Metta, Phil 36035 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati/ Jon II Hi, Eric I've been through your various posts to me in which you refer to SN 54:13, and I think you make two main points. I hope you won't mind if I try to summarise them and give a response to all together. Eric, I read you as saying: A. The teaching on anapanasati given in SN 54:13 (and in the other anapanasati suttas) is not specifically directed to monks who are leading a certain lifestyle and who are already practising anapanasati. B. Anapanasati is prescribed by the Buddha for all as the single factor that if developed will lead to the development of satipatthana. On the first point, I'd just like to draw your attention to the following passage from SN 54:13, namely: "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "[1] Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; ... I see the monk described here as necessarily being a person of well developed samatha and satipatthana. On the second point, I think you may be giving too much emphasis to the reference to a single factor. Consider for example the following 'single factor' sutta from AN I (Ch XVI, 1-10; PTS Gradual Sayings Vol I p.27): "Monks, there is one thing which, if practised and made much of, conduces to downright revulsion and disgust, to ending, tranquillity, full comprehension, to perfect enlightenment, to Nibbaana. What is that one thing? It is calling to mind the Buddha. "[The same for] ... Dhamma ... the Order ... the moralities ... giving up ... the devas ... in-breathing and out-breathing ... death ... the bodily constituents ... tranquillity. This one thing conduces to Nibbaana." Note that here mindfulness of breathing is put on a par with 9 other subjects of samatha development. What I think the Buddha is saying in SN 54:13 and the other 'anapanasati' suttas is that a person who develops anapanasati can, by pursuing that same practice in a particular way (to be described in the sutta), also bring to perfection the development of satipatthana. Cheers Jon --- ericlonline wrote: > > Hey Jon, ... > Where is the advanced practitioner mentioned here? > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html ... > It says so here in the beginning of this Sutta. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings > the four frames of reference (foundations of mindfulness) to > completion. ... > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html > Well here when asked about 1 factor the Buddha prescribed > anapanasati. Not reading from texts, not hearing the dhamma, not > studying paramattha dhammas in the abhidhamma, etc. ONE FACTOR!! > Wow!, what an unqualified endorsement by the Buddha to Ananda! That > is good enough for me to start practicing it! ... > What is wrong with both? They can surely support > each other cant they? I mean ONE FACTOR is a pretty > good endorsement. Especially as it was not qualified > to whom the practitioner was in this sutta but just expounded > in terms of qualities to be developed. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html ... > But there is no reference to skill or lifestyle in this sutta? > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn54-013.html ... > Well maybe you like it better from the Buddha. > > "Yes, Ananda, there is one quality that, when developed & pursued,... > Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings > the four frames of reference (foundations of mindfulness) to > completion. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, > bring the seven factors for Awakening to completion. The seven > factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing > & release to completion. 36036 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 6:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hello all Thank you for launching this, Sarah. What a blessing it is to be able to discuss Dhamma with good friends, including the author whose books one is devouring. (I feel like a schoolboy again, with the Narnia series, and CS Lewis is in the house.) N >A detailed study of the many types >of cetasikas will help the reader to know his own defilements and to >develop good qualities and eventually, to eradicate all defilements. Well, this gets at what we were discussing with Herman, about theory and practice. I have only begun to gain a book knowledge of cetasikas. The above is quite a promise! This "know" - it must have various degrees, moving from intellectual knowledge to direct experience. What would the Pali verbs used for the various degrees of this "know?" > The reader may wonder what the purpose is of the many Pali terms used > in this book. In the course of his study he will see that the Pali terms > are helpful for precision of understanding. I have used the Pali terms > next to their English equivalents but the English terms often have a > specific meaning in the context of Western psychology or philosophy. We > should try to understand the correct meaning rendered by the Pali terms. I have heard many people at other groups (and here?) who consider using Pali terms to be pretentious. I can't imagine why. There are so many English translations used. It gets confusing. Lobha, for example. I hope more Pali terms will become as familiar as kamma and dhamma and dukkha have. But we know this will not happen, because the Buddha predicted that his teaching would disappear from the world. Resistance to Pali terminology - even amoung some Theravadins -is a sign of this happening, I suppose. Metta, Phil 36037 From: Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hi, Herman - In a message dated 9/5/04 5:03:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > Hi all, > > > > >Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > >========================================== > >Preface > >******* > > This book deals with the operations of the mind, citta, and > its accompanying mental factors, cetasikas. A detailed study of the > many types of cetasikas will help the reader to know his own > defilements and to develop good qualities and eventually, to > eradicate all defilements. > > > I'm very sorry, but my interest is in the teachings of the Buddha. > Some of you will doubtlessly breathe a sigh of relief, I'm outta > here. > > Thanks for putting up with me. > > Bye > > Herman > ============================= I hope that by "here" you are referring to the Cetasika Study Corner rather than DSG. Your posting on DSG has been so worthwhile - so thought provoking and original - that from a selfish perspective I don't want to see you leave. I also don't want to see you leave from the perspective of personal friendship. BTW, it is not too much of a push, I think, to identify the khandhas of sankhara, vedana, and sa~n~na in the suttas with the cetasikas in abhidhamma. Also, in the suttas, besides using the khandhic breakdown for "sentient beings", the Buddha also provides breakdowns into a) 6 sense domains, b) 12 sense-door/sense-object pairs, and c) 18 sense-door/sense-object/sense-consciousness triples. So, there are numerous ways the Buddha analyzed the psychophysical personality of a non-arahant, and while the category of "cetasikas" is not discussed in the suttas, most of the individual operations that Abhidhamma calls cetasikas are discussed in the suttas in much detail including kusala vs akusala dichotomy, and emphasizing the interrelationships of cetasikas (especially in paticcasamupada) and their essential emptiness. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36038 From: Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking and thoughts -- status of Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/5/04 9:44:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > ... > > That formulation is closer to the way I see matters, though the > >phrase > >"the consciousness that thinks (i.e., has a thought as object)" doesn't > >quite > >sit right with me. As I see it, there are mental operations called > >"thoughts" > >but better called "thinkings" that are nothing but fleeting events that > >occur, and I do not think of there being a "consciousness" as one thing > >that > >apprehends a "thought" as another thing. I just countenance an > >experiential event > >that I call a "thought" which is neither subject nor object, but is just > >a > >passing event. That event *seems* to be a "thought OF something" - that > >is, it > >seems to point to, or reference, something. Often, that apparent > >referencing is > >pure illusion. In fact, it's probably so that *always* that referencing > >is > >illusory, because even when the "something" intended to be pointed to is > >a > >paramattha dhamma, the experience of "thinking of that dhamma" is never > >the same as > >the direct experiencing of the actual dhamma, so thinking never > >references what > >it is intended to reference. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > While the world may appear to us as a world of experiential events, the > more important issue is whether that was the world as taught by the Buddha > (our own views of the way things are are notoriously skewed). > > In this regard it seems to me that in his teachings on the five > aggregates, the six sense bases and the elements the Buddha described a > world or worlds where the so-called experiential event of seeing is in > actuality an instance of the seeing-consciousness dhamma experiencing the > visible-object dhamma as its object, and where the so-called experiential > event of thinking is in actuality an instance of the > thinking-consciousness dhamma experiencing concept as its object. The > Buddha did not as I understand it teach a dhamma of the event of seeing or > thinking. > > I may have mistaken what you say above (if so, my apologies), but I don't > think the scenario you describe fits with the sutta references to the five > aggregates, the six sense-bases and the elements. > > Jon > > ================================ The word 'vi~n~nana' isn't used consistently throughout the suttas. Often it means nothing more than awareness or experience or presence of experiential content. I don't deny the reality of that - anything but. In the scheme of dependent origination, however, the word appears to me to denote a subjectivity or the cognitive activity of an apparent subject that apprehends an apparent object (vi~n~nana as subject impacting namarupa as object), the relating of two separate, self-existing and substantial realities, subject and object, and this is the focal point for avijja - this is where avijja does its work. Vi~n~nana as knowing subject (or cittas as little knowing selves) is what I object to. I think the Sheaves of Reeds sutta is one of the most important suttas in clarifying this issue. Another point that I think should not be overlooked is that the "world" of an arahant - that is, reality - is not the same of the "world" of non-arahants who seem to observe a realm of separate, discrete, yet somehow interacting "things" and "selves". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36039 From: Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking and thoughts -- status of Hi again, Jon - In a message dated 9/5/04 12:58:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > The word 'vi~n~nana' isn't used consistently throughout the suttas. > Often it means nothing more than awareness or experience or presence of > experiential content. I don't deny the reality of that - anything but. In > the scheme > of dependent origination, however, the word appears to me to denote a > subjectivity or the cognitive activity of an apparent subject that > apprehends an > apparent object (vi~n~nana as subject impacting namarupa as object), the > relating of > two separate, self-existing and substantial realities, subject and object, > and this is the focal point for avijja - this is where avijja does its work. > > Vi~n~nana as knowing subject (or cittas as little knowing selves) is what I > object to. I think the Sheaves of Reeds sutta is one of the most important > suttas > in clarifying this issue. > Another point that I think should not be overlooked is that the > "world" of an arahant - that is, reality - is not the same of the "world" of > > non-arahants who seem to observe a realm of separate, discrete, yet somehow > interacting "things" and "selves". ============================== In this regard, there is the following by Ven. ~Nanavira (who admittedly marched to a rather different drummer than most and who did not have the most auspicious of "end games"): _____________________ Consciousness (viññána) can be thought of as the presence of a phenomenon, which consists of náma and rúpa. Námarúpa and viññána together constitute the phenomenon 'in person' -- i.e. an experience (in German: Erlebnis). The phenomenon is the support (árammana -- see first reference in [c] below) of consciousness, and all consciousness is consciousness of something (viz, of a phenomenon). Just as there cannot be presence without something that is present, so there cannot be something without its being to that extent present -- thus viññána and námarúpa depend on each other (see A NOTE ON PATICCASAMUPPÁDA §17). 'To be' and 'to be present' are the same thing.[a] But note that 'being' as bhava, involves the existence of the (illusory) subject, and with cessation of the conceit (concept) '(I) am', asmimána, there is cessation of being, bhavanirodha. With the arahat, there is just presence of the phenomenon ('This is presen t'), instead of the presence (or existence) of an apparent 'subject' to whom there is present an 'object' ('I am, and this is present to [or for] me', i.e. [what appears to be] the subject is present ['I am'], the object is present ['this is'], and the object concerns or 'belongs to' the subject [the object is 'for me' or 'mine'] -- see PHASSA & ATTÁ); and consciousness is then said to be anidassana, 'non-indicative' (i.e. not pointing to the presence of a 'subject '), or niruddha, 'ceased' (see A NOTE ON PATICCASAMUPPÁDA §22). ----------------------------------------------- With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36040 From: Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 7:25am Subject: An Article on Dependent Origination Hi, all - The article at the following web site expresses a view of dependent origination, and of vi~n~nana in that context, that is very close to mine. Click here: AN INTRODUCTION TO PATICCA SAMUPPADA With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36041 From: Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] An Article on Dependent Origination Hi again, all - In a message dated 9/5/04 2:44:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > > Hi, all - > > The article at the following web site expresses a view of dependent > origination, and of vi~n~nana in that context, that is very close to mine. > > Click here: AN INTRODUCTION TO PATICCA SAMUPPADA > > With metta, > Howard > > ============================== Somehow the link didn't appear. Here it is again: www.bpf.org/tsangha/watts2-1.html With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36042 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg]details of the Tiika Dear Jon and Azita, thanks for your kind words. However, I have to adept my study to my ability. I spent hours and hours merely on the Pali word by word translations and now I would rather make a choice and follow Larry's suggestions. A kind of Middle Way, you know. Nina. op 05-09-2004 04:14 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > I agree with Jon here, Nina. However, I probably read less of it > than Jon, and some of, in fact a lot of it goes over my head, and I > put that down to my inability to sit still long enuff to study > it!!!! too easily distracted. 36043 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] VismXIV 97, 98 review, and intro review. Hi Larry, I review also part of my intro I wrote before. op 05-09-2004 01:08 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: Vis. Text 97. (39) [The resultant] 'mind-element' has the characteristic of > cognizing [respectively] visible data, etc., immediately next to > (34)-(38) eye consciousness, and so on. Its function is to receive > visible data, and so on. It is manifested as the state [of receiving] > corresponding to that [last-mentioned function].37 Its proximate cause > is the departure of eye-consciousness, and so on. N: Receiving-consciousness, sampa.ticchana-citta. ***************************************** This is also called mind-element, mano-dhaatu. One type is kusala vipaaka and one type is akusala vipaaka. Thus, three cittas are mind-element, mano-dhaatu, namely: the kiriyacitta which is the five-door adverting-consciousness and the two types of vipaakacittas which are receiving-consciousness, sampa.ticchana-citta, one being kusala vipaakacitta and one akusala vipaakacitta. In this section and the following ones the Visuddhimagga deals first with kusala vipaaka. The receiving-consciousness is succeeded by investigating-consciousness, santiira.na-citta which may be kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. In this section the Visuddhimagga deals with kusala vipaaka. Vis. text: (40)-(41) Also the twofold resultant 'mind-consciousness-element without > root cause' with the function of investigating, etc., has as its > characteristic the cognizing of the six kinds of objects. Its function > is that of investigating, and so on. It is manifested as the state [of > investigating] corresponding to that [last-mentioned function]. Its > proximate cause is the heart-basis. N: Investigating-consciousness, santiira.na-citta. **************************************** The santiira.na-citta that is kusala vipaaka is twofold: depending on whether the object is moderately pleasant or very pleasant it is respectively accompanied by indifferent feeling or pleasant feeling. This shall be explained further later on. The translator has a note to the Vis. text explaining that the function of receiving-consciousness is to receive visible data, and so on and that its manifestation is the state [of receiving]corresponding to that [last-mentioned function]. He explains the term < tathaa bhaava> that is translated here as a state. Tathaabhaava means being of such nature, of such condition. The Expositor (p. 84) explains the term manifestation, recurring phenomenon, as mode of manifestation or effect. Manifestation can be effect or fruit. The function of receiving-consciousness is receiving and this is also its manifestation or effect. The santiira.na-citta experiences the five sense objects, but it can also experience six objects, and that is, other kinds of objects apart from the five sense objects. The reason is that at different moments this type of citta can perform different functions, as will be elaborated on in the next section. The Tiika mentions as functions of investigating-consciousness: investigating, retention, rebirth-consciousness, life-continuum (bhavanga) and dying. The investigating-consciousness can also perform the function of retention after the javana-cittas. Moreover, the rebirth-consciousness may be ahetuka vipaakacitta, resultant without wholesome roots and in that case it is of the same type as the santiira.na-citta. The life-continuum and the dying-consciousness are the same type of citta as the rebirth-consciousness. (follows a short explanation of Vis. 98) Nina. 36044 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 98, short explanation. Hi Larry, first a short explanation, before giving more details later on: this is all about investigation-consciousness, santiira.na-citta, that has as function to investigate the sense-object that impinged on a sense-door. This is only a mere passing moment, thus we should not misunderstand the term investigating, it is not like invvestigating as used in conventional language. See below. op 05-09-2004 01:02 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 98. But it is classed according to its association with joy or with > equanimity, N: Here the Vis. deals with the two types of investigating-consciousness that are kusala vipaakacitta, not yet with the type that is akusala vipaakacitta (and that is accompanied by indifferunt feeling). When the sense object is very pleasant investigating-consciousness is accompanied by pleasant feeling, when it is moderately pleasant by indifferent feeling. It all depends on kamma what type of vipaakacitta arises, nobody can control this. Text: and according to its being divisible into that with two > positions and that with five positions [in the cognitive series]. For of > these, (40) one is 'associated-with-joy' because of its presence when > entirely desirable objects occur; and it has two positions [in the > cognitive series] because it occurs as investigating at the five doors > and as registration at the end of impulsion. (41) N: The position is actually the function it can perform. This type does not only perform the function of investigating when it succeeds the receiving-consciousness (and this succeeded a sense-cognition such as seeing), it can at other moments also perform other functions. The meaning is that it is the same type of citta as the santiira.nacitta, and accompanied by the same kinds of cetasikas. Thus, after the javana-cittas it can perform the function of retention. This is also vipaakacitta, and it hangs on once more to the sense object that impinged on a sense-door. Only in the case of cittas of the sensuous plane and in the sensuous planes of existence kamma roduces retention consciousness. Thus not in the case of jhanacittas or lokuttara cittas, and not in the higher planes of existence. Those who are reborn there are have developed detachment from sense objects. Two positions, because here the Vis. deals with the santiira.na-citta that is accompanied by pleasant feeling. Text: The other kind is > 'associated-with-equanimity' because of its presence when > desirable-neutral objects occur, and it has five positions since it > occurs as investigation, registration, rebirth-linking, life-continuum, > and death. N: The santiira.na-citta accompanied by equanimity can perform five functions. In addition to investigation and retention, it can perform the functions of rebirth-linking, life-continuum, and death. The last three cannot be performed by the santiira.na-citta accompanied by pleasant feeling. The last three functions are door freed or process freed, because these are not performed in a process of cittas that experience an object that impinges on one of the sense-doors. When a human is reborn with the vipaakacitta that is santira.na-citta, he is handicapped from birth and his capacities to develop understanding are very limited. This is conditioned by kamma. We can see that it is beyond control with what kind of vipaakacitta one is reborn. All bhavanga-cittas in that life are of the same type of citta. I will study more details of the Tiika and add relevant points. Nina. 36045 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Dear Sarah, I add: These texts can encourage us to keep in mind the purpose of our study. Sometimes we (including myself) may get lost in details. But the purpose is understanding anatta, otherwise we keep on taking citta, cetasikas and rupas for mine or self. Thus, we can study details, and these are not easy to understand. But at the same time we should consider: all these realities appear now. A. Sujin also likes to return frequently to the three conditioned paramattha dhammas. What are they, what is the meaning. Or to the five khandhas. What are these precisely? We should all the time return to basics. As to the study of cetasikas, Larry and I will also come to that in due time with the Vis. , but repetitions do not matter. There will always be other angles. Nina. op 05-09-2004 10:14 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > Buddhaghosa's commentaries date from the fifth century A.D. He edited > in Sri Lanka old commentary works with utmost conscientiousness and > translated them from Singhalese into Pali. The reader will be impressed by > the discriminative, refined knowledge of all the details of the Buddha's > teachings and by the vivid way he illustrates points of the teachings with > examples. He continuously points to the goal: the development of insight > in order to see realities as they are. I quoted from the suttas texts > which deal with the development of all kinds of kusala, comprising the > development of calm and the development of insight. These texts can > encourage us to keep in mind the purpose of our study. 36046 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner (cittas study corner?) Dear AL, op 05-09-2004 05:07 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: > > Ch3. There is the example given of a musical composer who moves his > hand due to citta. I thought citta was only consciousness, only > experiencing something, not the actor, director, or controller of > other functions. How can I reconcile these two views? N: Citta can motivate motion of body parts and also speech. Citta can originate rupa. When you type a question on the computer, citta thinks and makes your fingers move. It is kusala citta or akusala citta. When you walk, citta causes this movement. The whole day. you could not do anything without citta that is accompanied by cetasikas. A: 'But, your reverence, I declare not that there is any making an end of > ill without reaching world's end. Nay, your reverence, in this very > fathom-long body, along with its perceptions and thoughts, I proclaim > the world to be, likewise the origin of the world and the > making of the world to end, likewise the practice going to the ending > of the world.' N: The world is the five khandhas. A: I see these as being parallel to the noble truths, which need to be > seen with proper wisdom. I say this because I've already seen the > world in here, now I just need to see the other three :-) N: Not easy to see the khandhas, nama and rupa now, as they are. A: In the different types of lobha-mula-cittas, which wrong views are > there that accompany the cittas? Wrong views of self, or is it that > there are no results of good or bad deeds? Self would seem the most > likely wrong view because it can be produced just by mistakenly seeing > self where it doesnt exist. N: Any kind of wrong view and there are many. Personality beliefe, sakkaya-ditthi conditions many other kinds of wrong view. AL: I do not see how what a wrong view of the > fruit & result of good and bad deeds has to do with a pleasant feeling > rooted in attachment, maybe someone could illuminate that for me. N: When there is wrong view there is attachment to that and it can also be with pleasant feeling. someone feels happy about his wrong view. Here is from Vis. XIV, 91 I repost what I wrote before in my Vis. Tiika series: The text refers to the ³Middle Length Sayings² no 45, ³Lesser Discourse on the Ways of Undertaking Dhamma². The Buddha explains about the undertaking of dhamma that is happiness in the present but results in suffering in the future: The Buddha explains that they will have an unhappy rebirth. The Tiika mentions that someone who with a perverted mind indulges in sense pleasures rejects other worlds, that is, an unhappy rebirth in a next life as the result of his misbehaviour. The ³Dhammasanga.ni² (§ 381) shows the danger of wrong view (opinion): The Expositor (II, p. 336) explains that it is like jungle because of the difficulty of getting out of it. It is ³like a wilderness infested by thieves and wild beasts, of sand, waterless, without food.² It states that wrong view is the wrong path: The Tiika also mentions that a person who indulges in wrong conduct with wrong view takes this wrong path for the way leading to heaven and salvation. Nina. 36047 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit - Avoidance of kusala - degrees of defilements Hi Phil, coarse defilements are the transgressions. Akusala kamma through body and speech. The Buddha speaks about those, and especially in the Vinaya. This helps us to see our own vices. Medium defilements: arise with the akusala citta, pariutthaana kilesas.. Subtle defilements: the latent tendencies, anusayas.. Also in the sutta we read about those. The details you find more in the commentaries. I translated from Thai: Nina. op 04-09-2004 23:43 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Could anyone tell me if there are any suttas in which the Buddha explicitly > considered the difference between coarse, medium and subtle defilements? 36048 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner Dear Phil, op 05-09-2004 00:08 schreef plnao op plnao@j...:> > In the meantime, a question. In chapter one we read that "some cittas are > accompanied only by the universals, other are accompanied by several more > cetasikas in addition." For some reason I am curious to know which cetasikas > are accompanied only by the universals and if there is any particular > significance to them. Thanks in advance. N: Seeing, hearing, etc. are accompanied only by the universals, they experience directly the appropriate sense object that impinges on the sense-door. They just see or hear, they do not need any more helpers to experience the object. The six particulars accompany cittas of the four jatis but not all of them. Receiving-consciousness needs pakinnakas, such as applied and sustained thinking, it does not see, but it merely receives visible object. I may add that it is adamant to know what jaati a citta is: kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya. The universals are very different when they arise with cittas of these jaatis, even though they are of the same type. It makes an enormous difference wehther feeling is vipaaka, akusala or kusala. Nina. 36049 From: jwromeijn Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 0:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: flippin off the moon Hallo Jon, Ben and all Ben: > many in DSG have a great deal to be gained from studying the views of > the Prajnaparamita, Kammathana, or Chan schools which, after several > hundred years of dealing with the pedantry of the paramattha dhamma > realists, had developed some very skillfull ways of avoiding the > quagmire of clinging to "realities." Jon: Interesting approach, Ben. But I question the value of studying the views of other schools of thought, rather than the suttas and commentaries themselves, which are the best record there is of what the Buddha said. If there is anything to be learned, it will be in the suttas and commentaries. It is true that the views of other individuals as to how those texts and commentaries should be read may be useful, but in the end anything that is not directly from the texts has to be judged against the texts themselves. Joop: I don't agree with that, Jon. It's a orthodox view on Theravada that is to defensive, not future- directed. The Tipitaka (I don't talk about the commentaries) is "strong" enough it to compare it with other texts. And it is healthy for the development for somebody conversed (or partly conversed) to Theravada to read other texts. And I think it's healthy for a "born" Theravadin too. I for example like to study Nagarjuna and read in the book of the (Sri Lankan born) Kalupahana that Nagarjuna is not a Mahayanist. And Nagarjuna talks too about "two truths". You better could have asked, and now I do, to Ben: What is the disadvantage of clinging to realities? Metta Joop 36050 From: ericlonline Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 2:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: flippin off the moon Hello All, > Hallo Jon, Ben and all > > Ben: > > many in DSG have a great deal to be gained from studying the views > of > > the Prajnaparamita, Kammathana, or Chan schools which, after several > > hundred years of dealing with the pedantry of the paramattha dhamma > > realists, had developed some very skillfull ways of avoiding the > > quagmire of clinging to "realities." > > Jon: > Interesting approach, Ben. But I question the value of studying the > views of other schools of thought, rather than the suttas and > commentaries themselves, which are the best record there is of what > the Buddha said. > If there is anything to be learned, it will be in the suttas and > commentaries. It is true that the views of other individuals as to how > those texts and commentaries should be read may be useful, but in the > end anything that is not directly from the texts has to be judged > against the texts themselves. > > Joop: I don't agree with that, Jon. > It's a orthodox view on Theravada that is to defensive, not future- > directed. > The Tipitaka (I don't talk about the commentaries) is "strong" enough > it to compare it with other texts. And it is healthy for the > development for somebody conversed (or partly conversed) to Theravada > to read other texts. And I think it's healthy for a "born" Theravadin > too. "Each religion has helped mankind. Paganism increased in man the light of beauty, the largeness and height of his life, his aim at a many-sided perfection; Christianity gave him some vision of divine love and charity; Buddhism has shown him a noble way to be wiser, gentler, purer; Judaism and Islam how to be religiously faithful in action and zealously devoted to God; Hinduism has opened to him the largest and profoundest spiritual possibilities. A great thing would be done if these God-visions could embrace and cast themselves into each other; but intellectual dogma and cult-egoism stand in the way." Sri Aurobindo 36051 From: ericlonline Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 3:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Article on Dependent Origination Hey Howard, As I read this, I thought it very familiar. Then I saw his references to Buddhadasa and then I knew why. :-) PEACE E > www.bpf.org/tsangha/watts2-1.html > > With metta, > Howard 36052 From: Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 5:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] VismXIV 97, 98 review, and intro review. Hi all, Here is a repeat of Nina's intro to Vism.XIV 94, 95: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35461 Intro: Thus far the Visuddhimagga has dealt with kusala dhamma, all kusala cittas, and akusala dhamma, all akusala cittas. Now follows the explanation about the cittas that are indeterminate dhamma, avyaakata dhamma, neither kusala nor akusala. The Tiika explains that there are four dhammas that are avyaakata dhamma: resultant cittas (vipaakacittas), inoperative cittas (kiriyacittas), ruupa and nibbaana. But in this section the Visuddhimagga deals with the khandha of consciousness, viññaa.nakkhandha, and therefore it only explains about the cittas that are indeterminate: the resultant cittas (vipaakacittas), and the inoperative cittas (kiriyacittas). First vipaakacittas are summarized. These can be kusala vipaaka, the result of kusala kamma, or akusala vipaaka, the result of akusala kamma. Kusala vipaakacittas can be of all four planes of citta: of the sense sphere, of the fine-material sphere (ruupa-jhaana), of the immaterial sphere (aruupa-jhaana), and supramundane (lokuttara). Akusala vipaakacittas are only of the sense-sphere. As we have seen under the section of kusala citta (Tiika to Vis. XIV, 85), kusala kamma can produce as result: eight kinds of sahetukavipaakacittas, with roots,'which arise as rebirth-consciousness, bhavanga-citta (life-continuum), dying-consciousness and during a process after the javana-cittas (kusala cittas or akusala cittas) as retention, tadaaramma.na cittas, if that process takes its complete course. Kusala kamma also produces eight kinds of ahetuka vipaakacittas, without roots, which arise in a process of cittas. They are: the five kinds of sense-cognitions (seeing, etc.), receiving-consciousness (sapa.ticchana-citta) arising after the sense-cognition, and two types of investigation-consciousness (santiira.na-citta) that arise after the receiving-consciousness. Akusala kamma can produce seven kinds of ahetuka vipaakacittas. It does not produce sahetuka vipaakacittas. We may take it for granted that we see and hear, but they are conditioned dhammas, produced by kamma. Kamma produces rebirth-consciousness, and then throughout our life kamma produces sense-cognitions arising in processes. Nobody can prevent their arising or exert control over them. In the following sections the Visuddhimagga deals first with kusala vipaakacittas. The Tiika explains that sahetuka vipaakacittas are accompanied by the cetasikas that are roots, such as non-attachment, but that this does not mean that these roots are active, that they produce effects. These roots are merely results, they accompany vipaakacitta produced by kusala kamma with roots. When we read the texts about vipaakacittas it may seem that there is a mere summing up, but we should not forget that these cittas arise all the time, from birth to death. Seeing is ahetuka vipaakacitta and it may be the result of kusala kamma or of akusala kamma. It arises and falls away and then it is gone before we can find out whether it is kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. It is followed by receiving-consciousness sampa.ticchana-citta, which is also called mind element, mano-dhaatu. This citta does not see, it merely receives visible object and then it is succeeded by investigating-consciousness, santiira.na-citta, which determines the object. The Tiika explains that these functions are not very prominent. They just follow the sense cognitions and perform their functions of receiving the object and determining it. The Expositor (II, p. 350) refers to the Dhammasanga.ni (§ 454) and explains about receiving-consciousness that is also called mind-element, mano-dhaatu: We should not forget that it is an element, a dhamma devoid of self. We have heard the term element many times, but through insight the characteristics of dhammas can be directly known so that they are realized as elements, devoid of self. 36053 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 6:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" > > > I might be accepting that we have to wait for such occasions of > awareness to arise, rather than actively cultivating it. +++++++++++++++ Dear Andrew, > > As > > these levels of understanding develop there is more > > comprehension of anicca, dukkha and anatta but not until later > > stages are they clearly seen. The process is a very gradual one > > that reduces self to one moment only. > > Ah. Sort of a slowing down of everything? > ++++++++++++++++== Dear Andrew, I sometimes see mention of slowing things down in modern texts but according to the Tipitaka and commentaries the rise and fall of elements cannot be slowed down. However, wisdom (panna cetasika) is also arising and passing away and can come in and insight the moment. ++++++++= > ++++++. > > > Robert: Now I have a slight pain around my eye, that is the concept, the > > thinking. The realities, the dhammas, include akusala > > vipaka through the bodysense (painful feeling) and there are > > cittas that experience heat and hardness... ++++++++++++ > So be mindful of nama and rupa as it were, or the four elements and > painful feeling. I think I have to check my understanding of > Abhidharma, Im not getting how a painful feeling can be unwholesome. > Isnt it just a state of consciousness that must be? The painful > feeling can be a result of unwholesomeness if that's why it's akusala > vipaka I guess I can accept that but shouldn't 'vedana' be in there > somewhere? ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Yes, painful feeling is vedana and comes with the bodysense vipaka. As you say it is not unwholesome, but we refer to it as akusala vipaka as it was the result of prior unwholesome kamma. +++++++++++++ > > > When we think about such painful or pleasant feelings is it > > "me' who is having pain or is self reduced to one moment? Usually we > > believe that 'I' am > > thinking, "I" am seeing, feeling, hearing. But the Dhamma helps to > > break down the > > idea of a whole, a person. The next moment is a new 'I' at a > > new location at the eyedoor or eardoor or bodydoor or mindoor. So > > uncontrollable and > > temporary. And this is understanding at the level of pondering the > > Dhamma. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > So we should just experience or know that there is painful feeling, no > I or self. I think you're saying we have to investigate every > instance of "I see" or "I hear" and maybe look for where the > underlying "I" is for seeing what it really is. My method would more > be to practise complete mindfulness, knowing "painful feeling," > "hearing neutral," "seeing pleasant," and break it all down to > identifying the phenomenon without taking any of it as self- but this > would be on my mindfulness meditation walks, which I have not yet > incorporated into daily life, which is what your approach is geared to > from what I can gather. So it's a difference of how much we are > mindful of at a time. You want to be mindful of one nama and one rupa > at a time, as awareness shifts. I want to try to be mindful of the > whole load of them simultaneously. /me smiles. This isn't to say > that truly we can be mindful of them all at once, but to be 100% > mindful is to be mindful of as much as possible, each split second > reality into the next, so if I have a pleasant feeling in my toe and a > neutral feeling in my hand they are noted within a few seconds or less > time frame of one another - and the whole body is like that. +++++++++++++++++++ I appreciate that you see mindfulnes is connected to understanding of the conditioned (anatta) nature of whatever element is object. You can check: When we try hard to be 100% mindful is it really with detachment (the right kind) or is there clinging coming in. If there is clinging it can be known and then one will be able to adjust and correct any wrong practice that slips in. RobertK 36054 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 8:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 Hi Sarah and Nina, Thanks for shining more light on this subject. I'm happy with the understanding that, while concepts are not real and cannot condition anything, experiences (cittas and cetasikas) of concepts can, and do, condition other experiences. Kind regards, Ken H > > So all experiences, i.e anything experienced, is accumulated. The > latent tendencies (asaya) are all pakatupanissaya, but there is only ever > one accumulation arising at a time. Of course, the conditioned state (the > paccayuppanna dhamma) always refers to a citta and cetasikas. > > With regard to the object condition as a concept, as Nina said, it's as > arammana (object) only. That's all. It conditions by way of sa~n~naa which > marks the object when it's experienced, according to one's accumulations > of thinking (cittas and cetasikas). > > We begin to see a little about the intricacy of conditions. There are so > many other conditions involved as well of course. > 36055 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 9:15pm Subject: Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi Robert K, Herman and Howard, . . . > In a message dated 9/4/04 6:19:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > > > Dear Herman, > > Thanks for this excellent post. > > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > But here comes Horrible Howard with a mixed review! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------- KH: And here comes Akusala Ken with his two cents worth! :-) ------------------ Howard: > Anatta is the core of his teaching. It is a fair assumption, I would say, that all people seek to exercise control over things, though ariyans surely understand this differently from worldings. ------------------ KH: Hmmm! As one who sees the Dhamma is `descriptive, not prescriptive,' I don't see arahants as `seeking to exercise control' at all - not even in their own, unique, way of understanding control. ----------------------------- Howard: > The Buddha provided medicine when a monk was ill, he taught people when they requested a teaching, and he moved into the shade when that was called for. So, speaking conventionally, the Buddha sought to exercise control, and he did exercise control. > ------------------------------ KH: Also speaking conventionally; the Buddha understood the conditioned nature of dhammas. When he was `teaching' and `moving into the shade,' he understood those concepts, at all times (before, during and after) as referring to *uncontrolled* dhammas. ---------------- Howard: > Anatta is fact ... period. A description of it suitable to hear, read, and think about is theory. > ----------------- KH: I agree with that, Howard, but I would like you to explain how, in this context, a fact differs from a `description' of a fact. (This is a trick question :-) I am trying to get you to explain sabhava.) -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: > Agreed. Theory is the content of a teaching, particularly a teaching of "how things are". Studying the theory taught by the Buddha is practice - an important part of Buddhist practice, but extremely far from the whole of it. -------------------------------------------------------- KH: To avoid confusion, could we accept the difference between theoretical understanding (pariyatti) and practice (patipatti) as it is made clear, I think, in the suttas? Hearing and studying the Dhamma - with wholesome intent - is pariyatti. Direct experience - with a degree of right understanding - of a paramattha dhamma is patipatti. (Direct experience - with fully developed right understanding - of a paramattha dhamma (conditioned or unconditioned) is pativedha (penetration of the Dhamma).) --------------------- Howard: > Reading and thinking about it is important intellectual activity, but only that. > --------------------- KH: Yes, but I don't know about "only." It is, after all, the first, [and entirely necessary] factor leading to enlightenment. --------------------- Howard: > Insights don't arise randomly or by "dumb luck". Continued practice, including study and intellectual contemplation, guarding the senses, maintaining ongoing mindfulness (as possible), and engaging in formal samatha and vipassana bhavana as laid out by the Buddha, will set up conditions that cultivate the mind and lead it to freedom. > --------------------- KH: According to the definitions of pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha, that paragraph should read, "Continued study, including hearing and intellectual contemplation, plus continued practice, including guarding the senses, will set up conditions that cultivate the mind and lead it to freedom." Ongoing mindfulness is not an option. Between moments of mindfulness (sati), there will inevitably be vipaka moments of (sight, sound, taste, smell and touch) cognition and bavangha and other cittas in which sati does not arise. As for `formal samatha and vipassana bhavana;' why add those to the list? The given steps leading to pativedha are pariyatti and patipatti. There is no mention of formalised patipatti. *** I think I agreed with everything else the three of you wrote. So it's back to you, Howard, if you don't mind, for a review of my review of your review of Robert's review of Herman's message. Kind regards, Ken H 36056 From: Date: Sun Sep 5, 2004 5:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/6/04 12:16:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > ---------------- > Howard: >Anatta is fact ... period. A description of it suitable to > hear, read, and think about is theory. > > ----------------- > > KH: I agree with that, Howard, but I would like you to explain how, > in this context, a fact differs from a `description' of a fact. > (This is a trick question :-) I am trying to get you to explain > sabhava.) > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: The word 'anatta' is an adjective. What is stands for is a characteristic or property or lakkhana which happens to hold universally - of all things. It is a reality or actuality or fact. By 'reality', 'actuality', and 'fact' I mean the same. (On the other hand, the adjective 'atta' represents a property that holds of nothing, making it the direct opposite of a fact; it is a total fiction.) A description of a fact (or of a fiction) is a linguistic matter. A fact is an actual condition or characteristic, a fiction is a merely imagined one, and a description of either is speech. ----------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: >Agreed. Theory is the content of a teaching, particularly > a teaching of "how things are". Studying the theory taught by the > Buddha is practice - an important part of Buddhist practice, but > extremely far from the whole of it. > -------------------------------------------------------- > > KH: To avoid confusion, could we accept the difference between > theoretical understanding (pariyatti) and practice (patipatti) as it > is made clear, I think, in the suttas? Hearing and studying the > Dhamma - with wholesome intent - is pariyatti. Direct > experience - with a degree of right understanding - of a paramattha > dhamma is patipatti. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't accept this terminology. Theory is intellectual content of discourse, or the discourse itself. The study of it is an activity. The activity of studying Dhamma is an aspect of practice. Direct experience with right understanding is not practice - it is a consequence of practice. Practice is a willed, volitional activity, and insight cannot be willed. --------------------------------------------------------- > > (Direct experience - with fully developed right understanding - of a > paramattha dhamma (conditioned or unconditioned) is pativedha > (penetration of the Dhamma).) > > --------------------- > Howard: >Reading and thinking about it is important intellectual > activity, but only that. > > --------------------- > > KH: Yes, but I don't know about "only." It is, after all, the first, > [and entirely necessary] factor leading to enlightenment. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: First - yes, necessary - yes, sole - no! It is not all there is to practice. ---------------------------------------------------- > > --------------------- > Howard: >Insights don't arise randomly or by "dumb luck". Continued > practice, including study and intellectual contemplation, guarding > the senses, maintaining ongoing mindfulness (as possible), and > engaging in formal samatha and vipassana bhavana as laid out by the > Buddha, will set up conditions that cultivate the mind and lead it > to freedom. > > --------------------- > > KH: According to the definitions of pariyatti, patipatti and > pativedha, that paragraph should read, "Continued study, including > hearing and intellectual contemplation, plus continued practice, > including guarding the senses, will set up conditions that cultivate > the mind and lead it to freedom." ------------------------------------------------- Howard: A moot point, as I don't accept your definitions. :-) ---------------------------------------------- > > Ongoing mindfulness is not an option. Between moments of > mindfulness (sati), there will inevitably be vipaka moments of > (sight, sound, taste, smell and touch) cognition and bavangha and > other cittas in which sati does not arise. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: By "ongoing mindfulness" I merely mean frequent, powerful, and evident mindfulness. ------------------------------------------------ > > As for `formal samatha and vipassana bhavana;' why add those to the > list? The given steps leading to pativedha are pariyatti and > patipatti. There is no mention of formalised patipatti. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Nonsense. Don't meditate if you don't want to, Ken. But the Buddha trained his followers to meditate. I think the no-meditation view is a radical error, and I think that to maintain that formal meditation was not practice prescribed by the Buddha is utterly absurd. (I hope you will forgive me for being so wishy-washy on this point! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------- > > *** > I think I agreed with everything else the three of you wrote. So > it's back to you, Howard, if you don't mind, for a review of my > review of your review of Robert's review of Herman's message. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36057 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 1:38am Subject: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios (was:details of the Tiika) Hi Howard (Agrios,Vism study corner & All), You wrote the following to Agrios and myself recently: --- upasaka@a... wrote: > And "I" am increasingly aware of there not being consciousness! > Just > experiential content which is mentality-physicality. Just content - just > what > is present and its being present. ..... More recently you added: --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Speaking more specifically, my own direct observation is increasingly > that > experience, though usually seeming otherwise, is nondual, that > subject-object duality is > illusory, that there is no knowing subject nor known object, but merely > experience consisting of the presence of experiential content. ***** S: While you add various qualifications, I wonder whether you see any disparity with what you write or feel you experience and what we’ve been reading recently in the Visuddhimagga, with cross-references to suttas. In particular: 1) Visuddhimagga ch X1V, 82 as posted by Larry “82. 'Whatever has the characteristic of cognizing should be understood, all taken together, as the consciousness aggregate' was said above. And what has the characteristic of cognizing (vijaanana)? Consciousness (vi~n~naa.na); according as it is said, 'It cognizes, friend, that is why "consciousness" is said' (M.i,292). The words vi~n~naa.na (consciousness), citta (mind, consciousness), and mano (mind) are one in meaning. That same [consciousness], though one in its individual essence with the characteristic of cognizing, is threefold according to kind, namely, (I) profitable, (II) unprofitable, and (III) indeterminate.(35)” ***** 2. Mi,292 is MN43, Mahaavedalla Sutta “ ‘Consciousness, consciousness’ is said, friend. with reference to what is ‘consciousness’ said?” ‘It cognizes, it cognizes,’ friend; that is why ‘consciousness’ is said. What does it cognize? It cognizes: ‘[This] pleasant’*; it cognizes: ‘[This is] painful’; it cognizes: ‘[This is] neither-painful-nor-pleasant.’ ‘It cognizes, it cognizes,’ friend; that is why ‘consciousness’ is said.’” (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl). ...... *in a footnote, the translators indicate that “The Pali construction, ‘sukhan ti pi vijaanaati’,indicates that the feeling is being treated as a direct object of consciousness rather than an effective tone of the experience.” ***** Howard, here the feelings are taken as objects of satipatthana. The same applies to all other realities/actualities as objects of consciousness with wisdom.There is no question in the texts of any self as being a subject that experiences or exists in any form. However, the function of a citta and its accompanying cetasikas (consciousness and mental factors) is to experience its object. Without an object,by way of object condition, no citta or cetasikas can arise. ***** 2. Also posted by Larry recently and discussed further by him and Nina: "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 96. Herein, (34) 'eye-consciousness' has the characteristic of being supported by the eye and cognizing visible data. Its function is to have only visible data as its object. It is manifested as occupation with visible data. Its proximate cause is the departure of (70) the functional mind-element that has visible data as its object. (35)-(38) 'Ear-, nose-, tongue-, and body-consciousness' [respectively] have the characteristic of being supported by the ear, etc., and cognizing sounds, and so on. Their functions are to have only sounds, etc., as their [respective] objects. They are manifested as occupation with [respectively] sounds, and so on. Their proximate cause is the departure of (70) the functional mind-element that has [respectively] sounds, etc., as its object. ***** S: The text continues to discuss other cittas in the sense door and mind door processes which also arises by various conditions, including object condition, experience their respective objects and then fall away instantly. It’s important to understand why and how vi~n~naa.na khandha (consciousness aggregate) is distinct from other khandhas and to understand the nature of cittas as experiencing their objects in order to develop detachment from any lingering idea of self experiencing or having any experience.Just conditioned dhammas as elaborated on by the Tiika extracts Nina posted. I’ll leave your other comments for now and see if you have any problem with these quotes and comments first. Metta, Sarah p.s My apologies for referring to your comments in passing without quoting them. ====== 36058 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 1:47am Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner3-Preface(b) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Preface [continued] ******* Some people believe that the Abhidhamma, the teaching on ultimate realities, is not the original teaching of the Buddha. The Buddhist scriptures, the Tipitaka, consist of the Vinaya (book of Discipline for the monks), the Suttanta discourses) and the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma enumerates all realities and the different conditions for the phenomena which arise. In order to show that the different parts of the scriptures are one, that they are the Buddha's teaching, I quoted also from the suttas texts which deal with ultimate realities. There is also Abhidhamma in the suttas. In the suttas we read time and again that the Buddha spoke about ultimate realities appearing through the senses and through the mind-door. In order to understand the suttas some basic knowledge of the Abhidhamma is indispensable. As we study the Abhidhamma we will become more convinced that the Abhidhamma pertains to our daily life, that it teaches about the phenomena we can experience at this moment. As we continue with the study of the Abhidhamma we will be impressed by the depth of its teaching. No ordinary person could conceive such a detailed exposition of everything which is real, except an Enlightened One. The reader may find this book technical, but as he proceeds he will find that a detailed study of realities helps him to understand his daily life. I wish to express my deepest thankfulness to Ms. Sujin Boriharnwanaket in Bangkok, who greatly assisted me in understanding the Dhamma and its application in daily life. I based my study of cetasikas on the lectures she held in the Saket Temple in Bangkok. I also wish to express my appreciation to the "Dhamma Study and Propagation Foundation" ; to the sponsors of the printing of this edition, Asoka Jayasundera and family, Anura Perera and family and Laksham Perera and family; and to the publisher Alan Weller. With their help the publication of this book was possible. All the texts from which I quoted have been printed by the PaIi text Society1. I will now continue with a general introduction in order to help the reader to have more understanding of the nature of the cetasikas which accompany the different types of cittas. .......... 1 73 Lime Walk Headington, Oxford OX 37, 7AD ******* Metta, Sarah ====== 36059 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 2:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit - Correction of v iews - supports the other good deeds Hi Phil & Nina, --- plnao wrote: > More from the Chapter on Correction of Views in ‘Deeds of Merit’ ... Phil, Many thanks for these extracts and all your comments which I appreciate a lot. .... > This reminds me of what I read yesterday in Nina’s series on > ‘Removal > of Distracting Thoughts’ <....> >In the case of sensual attraction, if the first method of > reflecting on the foulness of the body to remove the unwholesome thought > doesn’t work, the monk is encouraged to reflect on the disadvantages of > unwholesomeness. <...> ***** S: We mentioned this sutta and Nina’s helpful series briefly in Bangkok and K.Sujin added a few further comments when I asked a question about all the ‘shoulds’ and the final ‘teeth clenching’ in the sutta. I recalled that years ago when I raised the same sutta, I remembered she had stressed that one should develop satipatthana however one was reflecting or whatever action one was taking. This time, she stressed more than once: ‘Each has one’s own way’. Whatever is one’s way, develop sati(awareness). ‘It’s always one’s own way - if you happen to be that way’. In other words, if you happen to be one who clenches the teeth or reflects on the foulness of the body or the disadvantages of unwholesomeness or on metta, develop sati. She added: ‘Anyway,panna(understanding)is the most important thing, not just clenching teeth’ [or any other activity or reflection]. ‘He showed many ways to suppress akusala (unwholesomeness). If a person has the accumulations to do [this or] that, it’s OK.’ We wondered whether this sutta was particularly for bhikkhus, but she added that the Buddha ‘taught everything to everyone; not just bhikkhus.’ Nina, thank you again for your posts and the detailed commentary notes on this sutta. Metta, Sarah p.s I’ll start adding any further points or queeries that arise from any of KS's comments in a book for India.We were close to cancelling when I was pretty ill, but the plans are going ahead again now. ======= 36060 From: plnao Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit - Correction of v iews - supports the other good deeds Hello Sarah, and all > >In the case of sensual attraction, if the first method of > > reflecting on the foulness of the body to remove the unwholesome thought > > doesn't work, the monk is encouraged to reflect on the disadvantages of > > unwholesomeness. Ph: I am still thinking about this, so thanks for bringing it up. I found myself thinking of the foulness of the body to avoid attraction in a certain situation today, but realized that it was being done with aversion, and disgust, perhaps because I was feeling tired and a bit cranky and it was an unexpectedly hot and sticky day today. I'm sure when done skillfully, it would not be accompanied by dose the way it was today - well, obviously. > S: We mentioned this sutta and Nina's helpful series briefly in Bangkok > and K.Sujin added a few further comments when I asked a question about all > the 'shoulds' and the final 'teeth clenching' in the sutta. I recalled > that years ago when I raised the same sutta, I remembered she had stressed > that one should develop satipatthana however one was reflecting or > whatever action one was taking. > > This time, she stressed more than once: 'Each has one's own way'. Whatever > is one's way, develop sati(awareness). 'It's always one's own way - if you > happen to be that way'. Ph: Surely this "right way" will vary, if not day to day, maybe year to year. We are in flux, so the suitable remedy out of the many remedies the Buddha taught will be different day by day or year by year, I guess. I'm interested in the various suttas in which the Buddha goes through a series of remedies. "If this doesn't work, try this" kind of thing. Such a great bounty of healing, if you will, to be found in the Dhamma. I think of AN V 161, in which there is a series of methods for removing annoyances, and there is the sutta in question. And then there is Buddhaghosa's commentary in the IX 14-30 of Vis. in which he works through methods for dealing with resementment to the hostile person considered in Brahma-Viharas meditation. In AN V 161 for example ( Nanamoli Thera trans) there is no mention of trying them in any order. I haven't figured out yet whether the methods ion this sutta might be in order according to how advanced one must be, or according to how quickly they can be applied for temporary relief, or how powerful the annoyance is, or what: "Bhikkhus, there are these five ways of removing annoyance, by which annoyance can be entirely removed by a bhikkhu when it arises in him. What are the five? "Loving-kindness can be maintained in being towards a person with whom you are annoyed: this is how annoyance with him can be removed. "Compassion can be maintained in being towards a person with whom you are annoyed; this too is how annoyance with him can be removed. "Onlooking equanimity can be maintained in being towards a person with whom you are annoyed; this too is how annoyance with him can be removed. "The forgetting and ignoring of a person with whom you are annoyed can be practiced; this too is how annoyance with him can be removed. "Ownership of deeds in a person with whom you are annoyed can be concentrated upon thus: 'This good person is owner of his deeds, heir to his deeds, his deeds are the womb from which he is born, his deeds are his kin for whom he is responsible, his deeds are his refuge, he is heir to his deeds, be they good or bad.' This too is how annoyance with him can be removed. "These are the five ways of removing annoyance, by which annoyance can be entirely removed in a bhikkhu when it arises in him." *** To me, the last is all that seems necessary, but perhaps that's because I have been spared dealing with hostile people these days. Isn't a basic right understanding of ownership of kamma enough to release our anger, at least on the surface? I am very interested in Brahma-Viharas, but I am dubious about using metta as a method of removing dosa, which it seems to be doing here, though I probably misunderstand. Would you, or anyone, know in what way the above sutta is being offered? Is it really " each has his own way" or is there some graduation according to skill level, etc. Perhaps if one is very advanced on the path, loving-kindness is more regularly arising, so can be used effectively and quickly to remove distractions without it being an escape from dosa, and the kind of reflection on ownership of deeds is for people like myself who are starting out on the path and use the intellect more? Or is it depending on the strength of the annoyance, or what? > p.s I'll start adding any further points or queries that arise from any > of KS's comments in a book for India.We were close to canceling when I > was pretty ill, but the plans are going ahead again now. Ph: I didn't know you were ill. I hope you're feeling better now. And I hope Jon's back isn't acting up. Please record a few talks in India. I would love to hear them. Metta, Phil p.s thank you also Christine and Nina for your helpful responses to a question about degrees of defilements that I asked in this thread. Very helpful. 36061 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 8:19am Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) [Phil] Dear Phil, I think you are right about when you write "many...consider using Pali...to be pretentious." But you are right: Whenever you study any new discipline -- whether it be philosophy, biology, psychology, cooking, etc. -- there is a whole new vocabulary to learn. The Dhamma is a discipline that Western culture has tasted only slightly, and the act of learning the new vocabulary greatly facilitates the learning of the discipline. To take your example of "lobha", English- speaking people have a whole bag of ready-to-eat conceptions about what "greed" means, but don't we want to pierce all that baggage and get to the heart of the issue? "Oh, greed. That's not a problem for me. It's just those rich Republicans that have a problem with greed." And then you need to explain that "greed" doesn't really mean "greed", it means something more like "sense desire." But that doesn't quite get there either because the Buddhist conception of sense includes a mind sense among the other five common senses. And on and on. Lobha has no English equivalent, and investigating the specifics about just what this "lobha" is is to open a door into the Dhamma. If we consider carefully what lobha is, what its characteristics are, what causes it to arise, then we gradually learn to recognize its arising and passing away in all its manifestations, its impermanent nature, its emptiness, and its danger (what's a good gloss for "dukkha" in its role as one of the three lakkhana?). Similarly, for the other Pali terms: a precise consideration of the meanings can shed great light on the Dhamma. "Cetasikas" is a wonderful tool for studying these meanings. Kudos to Nina for her careful work. Dan > I have heard many people at other groups (and here?) who consider using > Pali terms to be pretentious. I can't imagine why. There are so many English > translations used. It gets confusing. Lobha, for example. I hope more Pali > terms will become as familiar as kamma and dhamma and dukkha have. 36062 From: Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios (was:details of the Ti... Hi, Sarah and all - In a message dated 9/6/04 6:09:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > > Hi Howard (Agrios,Vism study corner &All), > > You wrote the following to Agrios and myself recently: > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > And "I" am increasingly aware of there not being consciousness! > >Just > >experiential content which is mentality-physicality. Just content - just > >what > >is present and its being present. > ..... > > More recently you added: > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >Speaking more specifically, my own direct observation is increasingly > >that > >experience, though usually seeming otherwise, is nondual, that > >subject-object duality is > >illusory, that there is no knowing subject nor known object, but merely > >experience consisting of the presence of experiential content. > ***** > S: While you add various qualifications, I wonder whether you see any > disparity with what you write or feel you experience and what we’ve been > reading recently in the Visuddhimagga, with cross-references to suttas. In > particular: > > 1) Visuddhimagga ch X1V, 82 as posted by Larry > > “82. 'Whatever has the characteristic of cognizing should be understood, > all taken together, as the consciousness aggregate' was said above. And > what has the characteristic of cognizing (vijaanana)? Consciousness > (vi~n~naa.na); according as it is said, 'It cognizes, friend, that is why > "consciousness" is said' (M.i,292). The words vi~n~naa.na (consciousness), > citta (mind, consciousness), and mano (mind) are one in meaning. That > same [consciousness], though one in its individual essence with the > characteristic of cognizing, is threefold according to kind, namely, (I) > profitable, (II) unprofitable, and (III) indeterminate.(35)â€? > ***** > 2. Mi,292 is MN43, Mahaavedalla Sutta > > “ ‘Consciousness, consciousness’ is said, friend. with reference to what > is ‘consciousness’ said?â€? > > ‘It cognizes, it cognizes,’ friend; that is why ‘consciousness’ is said. > What does it cognize? It cognizes: ‘[This] pleasant’*; it cognizes: ‘[This > is] painful’; it cognizes: ‘[This is] neither-painful-nor-pleasant.’ ‘It > cognizes, it cognizes,’ friend; that is why ‘consciousness’ is said.’â€? > (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl). > ...... > *in a footnote, the translators indicate that “The Pali construction, > ‘sukhan ti pi vijaanaati’,indicates that the feeling is being treated as a > direct object of consciousness rather than an effective tone of the > experience.â€? > ***** > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I see possible disparity. As I see it, all that is experienced is, per force, experiential. Moreover, as I see it, experiencing consists of nothing but experiential content and experiential presence. What lies beyond experience, if anything, is unknowable in principle. Throughout much of the Sutta Pitaka, and particularly in the khandhic scheme, I understand vi~n~nana to be the same as what I call experiential presence - the presence of experiential content. But in the scheme of dependent origination, I take it to be subjectivity - the sense of a subject which grasps an object, and such vi~n~nana is defilement of awareness, created by ignorance-conditioned fabrication. When "cittas" are spoken of as things that know objects, that makes cittas into "little, knowing selves," as agents of a sort, as far as I am concerned - and I don't buy that. As I see it, the sense of 'vi~n~nana' as mere experiential presence, that is - the presence of experiential content, is harmless and valid, but the sense of 'vi~n~nana' as a thing that knows is harmful. In any case, Sarah, all that I am increasingly aware of is that at any time all there is is is experiential content, the particular content that is present on that occasion. Any sense of a separate knowing of it is merely that old devil "self" (a.k.a. Mara) attempting to insinuate himself. ------------------------------------------------ > Howard, here the feelings are taken as objects of satipatthana. The same > applies to all other realities/actualities as objects of consciousness > with wisdom.There is no question in the texts of any self as being a > subject that experiences or exists in any form. However, the function of a > citta and its accompanying cetasikas (consciousness and mental factors) is > to experience its object. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Here you speak of a "citta" as if it were some thing that has a function. I don't adopt that perspective. ------------------------------------------------ Without an object,by way of object condition, no> > citta or cetasikas can arise. > ***** > 2. Also posted by Larry recently and discussed further by him and Nina: > > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 96. Herein, (34) 'eye-consciousness' has the characteristic of being > supported by the eye and cognizing visible data. Its function is to have > only visible data as its object. It is manifested as occupation with > visible data. Its proximate cause is the departure of (70) the functional > mind-element that has visible data as its object. -------------------------------------------- Howard: If by 'eye consciousness' is meant merely the presence of visual content (or what you would call "visible object") I have no problem with this at all. -------------------------------------------- > > (35)-(38) 'Ear-, nose-, tongue-, and body-consciousness' [respectively] > have the characteristic of being supported by the ear, etc., and cognizing > sounds, and so on. Their functions are to have only sounds, etc., as their > [respective] objects. They are manifested as occupation with > [respectively] sounds, and so on. Their proximate cause is the departure > of (70) the functional mind-element that has [respectively] sounds, etc., > as its object. > ***** > S: The text continues to discuss other cittas in the sense door and mind > door processes which also arises by various conditions, including object > condition, experience their respective objects and then fall away > instantly. It’s important to understand why and how vi~n~naa.na khandha > (consciousness aggregate) is distinct from other khandhas and to > understand the nature of cittas as experiencing their objects in order to > develop detachment from any lingering idea of self experiencing or having > any experience.Just conditioned dhammas as elaborated on by the Tiika > extracts Nina posted. > > I’ll leave your other comments for now and see if you have any problem > with these quotes and comments first. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s My apologies for referring to your comments in passing without quoting > them. =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36063 From: agriosinski Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 9:37am Subject: Re: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios (was:details of the Tiika) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: [...] > "82. 'Whatever has the characteristic of cognizing should be understood, > all taken together, as the consciousness aggregate' was said above. And > what has the characteristic of cognizing (vijaanana)? Consciousness > (vi~n~naa.na); according as it is said, 'It cognizes, friend, that is why > "consciousness" is said' (M.i,292). The words vi~n~naa.na (consciousness), > citta (mind, consciousness), and mano (mind) are one in meaning. That > same [consciousness], though one in its individual essence with the > characteristic of cognizing, is threefold according to kind, namely, (I) > profitable, (II) unprofitable, and (III) indeterminate.(35)" Hi Sarah, Sorry if it sidetracks whole thread, but I may be lost here. I think there is 6 conconsciousnesses, sixth being mano vinaana. Am I wrong here? And BTW, does arahanta extinction apply to all six or only to five conventional senses conconsciousnesses? metta, Agrios 36064 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 9:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 98, short explanation. Dear Larry and Nina, May I participate in your discussion. I prefer Nina's word 'retention consciousness' for santira.na citta rather than Larry's word 'registration consciousness'. In sense door process after impulsion, there follow 2 successive cittas called tadarammana cittas if there are enough moments of rupa still left. This is only possible in case of atimahantarammana. This retention conscioussness is functioned by 11 cittas, 8 mahavipaka and 3 santirana cittas. Somanassa santirana can perform only 2 functions. One is investigating and another is retenting. But upekkha santirana cittas can perform as many as 5 functions as Nina says. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Hi Larry, This is only a mere passing moment, thus we should not misunderstand the term investigating, it is not like invvestigating as used in conventional language. See below. op 05-09-2004 01:02 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: >"The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV >98. But it is classed according to its association with joy or with equanimity, N: Here the Vis. deals with the two types of investigating- consciousness that are kusala vipaakacitta, not yet with the type that is akusala vipaakacitta (and that is accompanied by indifferent feeling). When the sense object is very pleasant investigating- consciousness is accompanied by pleasant feeling, when it is moderately pleasant by indifferent feeling. > Text: and according to its being divisible into that with two ..snip... N: The position is actually the function it can perform. This type does not only perform the function of investigating when it succeeds the receiving-consciousness (and this succeeded a sense-cognition such as seeing), it can at other moments also perform other functions. The meaning is that it is the same type of citta as the santiira.nacitta, and accompanied by the same kinds of cetasikas. Thus, after the javana-cittas it can perform the function of retention. This is also vipaakacitta, and it hangs on once more to the sense object that impinged on a sense-door. Only in the case of cittas of the sensuous plane and in the sensuous planes of existence kamma roduces retention consciousness. Thus not in the case of jhanacittas or lokuttara cittas, and not in the higher planes of existence. Those who are reborn there are have developed detachment from sense objects.Two positions, because here the Vis. deals with the santiira.na-citta that is accompanied by pleasant feeling. >Text: The other kind is > > 'associated-with-equanimity' because of its presence when ..snip... N: The santiira.na-citta accompanied by equanimity can perform five functions. In addition to investigation and retention, it can perform the functions of rebirth-linking, life-continuum, and death. The last three cannot be performed by the santiira.na-citta accompanied by pleasant feeling. The last three functions are door freed or process freed, because these are not performed in a process of cittas that experience an object that impinges on one of the sense-doors. When a human is reborn with the vipaakacitta that is santira.na-citta, he is handicapped from birth and his capacities to develop understanding are very limited. This is conditioned by kamma. We can see that it is beyond control with what kind of vipaakacitta one is reborn. All bhavanga-cittas in that life are of the same type of citta. I will study more details of the Tiika and add relevant points. Nina. 36066 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 10:16am Subject: Jhana Journey ( 13 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Now the jhana practitioner is right on the jhana journey. He has achieved the first jhana. But what he needs to practise at this stage is to exercise as frequently as possible so that he may become proficient in his first jhana. He needs to contemplate on his jhana. This is called avajjana (contemplating ) vasi ( exercising ). He must contemplate his jhana and he must do this exercise as many times as possible. This is avajjana vasi or contemplating exercise. He has to contemplate that in his first jhana there are vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha, and ekaggata. This contemplationn is not just thinking. But this has to practise whenever he emerges from jhana and in the vacinity of jhana. Next he needs to exercise to reach the first jhana whenever he wants it. This needs a lot of practice. After achieving jhana, he may do things in other fields that are not jhana such as listening The Buddha Dhamma. He may think other things apart from jhana. But he should reach jhana again as fast as possible. He must be in that state whenever he wants to be in the state of jhana. This exercise is called 'samapajjana Vasi' or accessing exercise. Next he needs to prescribe how long he will stay on jhana before hand. He needs to able to do so whenever he wants and how long he wants. This exercise is called 'adhitthana vasi' or wilfully-time- marking exercise. If he wants to be on jhana for an hour, he must be able to do so. If he wants a day, a month, a year, or many years , he must be able to do so. When in jhana, there is no interposition of other cittas apart from jhana citta of the same kind. If they do not stop arising, they can happen endlessly. Next he needs to exercise to be able to wake up from jhana. Or emerge from his jhana or exit from his jhana. He must emerge as soon as his prescribed allotted period has lapsed. This exercise is called 'vuthana vasi' or emerging exercise. In doing so he must be exact in timing and he must not overshoot the targeted time. Next he needs to scrutinize his jhana. He must examine it and investigate it. This exercise is called 'paccavakkhana vasi' or scrutinizing exercise. With this exercise his jhana will become sharper and sharper. May you all exercise your jhana with above five methods to sharpen your Jhana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36067 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 10:39am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 056 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, So far we have discussed 9 rupavacara cittas. They are 3 rupakusala cittas that are the first jhana, the second jhana, and the third jhana cittas, 3 rupavipaka cittas which are the resultant cittas of their corresponding rupakusala cittas, and 3 rupakiriya cittas which are corresponding rupa jhana that arise in arahats. The 3rd jhana composes of 'piti, sukha, and ekaggata' as jhana factors. Again through five exercises called vasis, the jhana practitioner becomes to realise that in his 3rd jhana 'piti' is the weakest factor among others. Because pitit is close to vicara and this again is close to vitakka. If piti is held longer, at a time his 3rd jhana may decay and he may fall back to 2nd then 1st and then he will join back kamavacara where he may find difficulty in regaining jhana. Through deep contemplation and exercising, he realises that pitit is not a good one and with a long practice, he does not like piti any more. This makes him dispassion on piti. As he dispassionates on piti, he tries again his jhana without any piti. The object is the same as when he developed the 1st jhana. The whole mind and all mental faculties are well concentrated on that object. When the right time arises, he will be able to develop jhana without any piti. Again, this time the arising of the 4th rupa jhana only occur just a moment and then he falls into bhavanga cittas. At a time bhavanga cittas stop and vithi cittas arise again at manodvara. Through contemplation, he knows that he has developed the 4th jhana. When contemplates, he sees that there are only two jhana factors that is sukha and ekaggata. The 58th citta is called 'sukhekaggata sahitam catutthajjhana rupavacara rupakusala citta'. This citta is a javana citta and it can give rise to kama. This kamma gives the resultant consciousness called rupavacara rupavipaka citta. This citta is 63rd citta of 89 cittas and it is called 'sukhekaggata sahitam catutthajjhana rupavacara rupavipaka citta. When the 4th jhana citta arise in arahats this jhana citta is called rupavacara rupakiriya citta and it is the 68th citta of 89 cittas in total. The full name of this 68th citta is 'sukhekaggata sahitam rupavacara rupakiriya citta. Here the object is that of when the third jhana arises. All rupavacara cittas take pannatta as their object. No appana jhana can take paramattha dhamma as their object. Pannatta is not a paramattha dhamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36068 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 10:51am Subject: miscellaneous to Phil Dear Phil, you had a few more Q. and remarks, but I do not remember in what context, there were so many mails. When we speak about citta, the accompanying cetasikas are always implied. We say vipaakacitta, and then the cetasikas are implied, we do not have to say vipaakacitta and vipaakacetasikas. To know or understand in Pali: many synonyms. One is: pajaanaati, to know clearly. Also seeing is used: passati, or dassati. In the context of vipassanaa we have the visuddhis, purifications: ñaa.na dassana visuddhi. vipassanaa: to see clearly form all sides.(vi is the prefix). Or kayanupassanaa: contemplation of the body. Now we come to the sutta you had in mind, I just hear it on tape. Kindred Sayings IV, Part II, about feeling 936, 1,1, §§ By abandoning. About the lurking tendencies, these are the anusayas, latent tendencies or biases. The latent tendency of sensuous desire adheres to pleasant objects and to pleasant feeling. This means, it conditions the arising of lobha for such objects, and then the lobha falls away and continues as a latent tendency. Always increasing. But if one has right understanding of defilements, they wear out and thorugh lokuttara pañña they can be eradicated. You asked: to know one's defilements. There are many degrees of knowing. It begins by intellectual understanding and wise reflection in daily life, and then one will understand more the disadvange of them. We begin to know when we are angry that we ourselves are the loser when we have dosa. We always used to think that it was someone else's fault. Lodewijk and I bring this up often. In the swimmingpool when the fast swimmer will not give us space. Looks like your bicycle episode. Lodewijk gest angry and I say that he is the loser. Nina. 36069 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi Ken H and Howard, really enjoying your friendly dialogue. Nina. op 06-09-2004 06:15 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > Howard: > Anatta is the core of his teaching. > It is a fair assumption, I would say, that all people seek to > exercise control over things, though ariyans surely understand this > differently from worldings. > ------------------ > > KH: Hmmm! As one who sees the Dhamma is `descriptive, not > prescriptive,' I don't see arahants as `seeking to exercise control' > at all - not even in their own, unique, way of understanding > control. > > ----------------------------- > Howard: > The Buddha provided medicine when a monk was ill, he > taught people when they requested a teaching, and he moved into the > shade when that was called for. So, speaking conventionally, the > Buddha sought to exercise control, and he did exercise control. > 36070 From: plnao Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 3:22pm Subject: The Buddha as physician (was Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks) Hello Ken and Howard, and all > KH: Hmmm! As one who sees the Dhamma is `descriptive, not > prescriptive,' Interesting line! I've read once once somewhere the Buddha being described as a physician, and suttas as prescriptions for well being. Was it a modern commentator who called the Buddha a physician? In all the traditional descriptions of the Buddha is "physician" ever used? I ask because I often think in terms of that very contemporary word "healing" (as in "healing one's inner child") when thinking of what we go through as our eyes are opened to the Dhamma. Metta, Phil 36071 From: plnao Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 3:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios (was:details of the Ti... Hello Howard, and all H: > When "cittas" are spoken of as things that know objects, that makes >cittas into "little, knowing selves," as agents of a sort, as far as I am > concerned. I've been confused (in my case) about this as well. But I had never identified the confusion and put it in words. Thanks. It will help me to eventually understand cittas. Metta, Phil 36072 From: plnao Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 3:52pm Subject: Pali canon in English and Pali? Hello all If I recall correctly, someone (Christine I think) once kindly linked me to a site where we can find the Pali canon (or large parts of it) in Pali and English. I must have bookmarked it, but can't find it. If there is such a site, could someone kindly link it again? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 36073 From: Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 4:42pm Subject: charts/ RobM. Hi Rob, How difficult would it be to upload the "consciousness" chart from Visuddhimagga to dsg files? I have been studying this for a couple of hours today and found it very helpful. I thought possibly it could be scanned, but a more ambitious undertaking might be with hyper-links and possibly reformatting. Anything you could do in this area would be greatly appreciated. Larry 36074 From: Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 1:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios (was:details of th... Hi, Agrios (and Sarah) - In a message dated 9/6/04 12:38:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, agriosinski@y... writes: > And BTW, does arahanta extinction apply to all six or only to > five conventional senses conconsciousnesses? > > ======================= That strongly depends on which sutta you read! ;-) There is at least one sutta which talks of only the five physical senses ceasing upon the death of arahant, leaving mind undiscussed. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36075 From: Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 5:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] VismXIV 97, 98 review Hi all, Here is a reiteration of a couple of points I found difficult in this section. First, all consciousesses are classed as one of three kinds of elements: 1.Consciousness-element. These are the 5-door sense consciousnesses, profitable (kusala) and unprofitable (akusala). 2. Mind-element. These are profitable and unprofitable receiving consciousness, and 5-door adverting consciousness. [Mind door adverting consciousness is mind-consciousness-element and the same as 5-door determining consciousness. There is no mind door process determining consciousness.] 3. Mind-consciousness-element. These are all the other kinds of consciousness including one kind of adverting (above), investigation, determining, root, registration, rebirth, bhavanga, and death. Any others? Next, all resultant (vipaka) consciousness is caused by (result of) root consciousness, profitable or unprofitable. The phrase "resultant mind-consciousness-element without root cause" means not accompanied by root cetasikas. All resultant consciousnesses, profitable and unprofitable, are unaccompanied by root cetasikas except for one class of profitable mind-consciousness element that performs the functions of registration, rebirth, bhavanga, and death consciousness. This means that this kind of registration, rebirth, bhavanga, and death consciousness is accompanied by nongreed (alobha), nonhatred (adosa), or nonbewilderment (amoha). This kind of profitable mind-consciousness-element WITH roots that functions as rebirth, bhavanga, and death is the rebirth, bhavanga, and death consciousness of a healthy being [I think???]. The profitable mind-consciousness-element WITHOUT roots that functions as the rebirth, bhavanga, and death consciousness is of a human being born with a physical or mental impairment. It is profitable because it is profitable to be reborn as a human. The UNprofitable mind-consciousness-element without roots that functions as rebirth, bhavanga, and death is of a lower realm being. Rebirth, bhavanga, and death consciousness are always resultant and always have the same object. The object for the next life is the object of the last consciousness _process_ before the death consciousness in this life. The sphere, and health in the case of sense-sphere, that one is born into is determined by root consciousnesses in any previous life. Corrections and questions are entirely welcome. Here is a link to the Vism.XIV 97 & 98 text: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/36009 Larry 36076 From: Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 6:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 98, short explanation. Hi Htoo, H: "I prefer Nina's word 'retention consciousness' for santira.na citta rather than Larry's word 'registration consciousness'." L: Glad to have your in-put on this thread. The more the better. The translation isn't mine. I am just transcribing Bhikkhu ~Nanamoli's trans. from the PTS Edition. I think I will stay consistent with his terminology just to minimize the confusion but alternatives can usually aid in understanding also. I will try to post the pali for some key words but if there is too much pali I get lost. Consciousness is a very complex subject so any clarifications or examples you could provide would be very welcome. Sometimes just saying the same thing in a different way is helpful. Larry 36077 From: Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 2:20pm Subject: Re: The Buddha as physician (was Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, For... Hi, Phil (and Ken) - In a message dated 9/6/04 6:38:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, plnao@j... writes: > Hello Ken and Howard, and all > > >KH: Hmmm! As one who sees the Dhamma is `descriptive, not > >prescriptive,' > > Interesting line! I've read once once somewhere the Buddha being described > as a physician, and suttas as prescriptions for well being. Was it a > modern commentator who called the Buddha a physician? In all the traditional > descriptions of the Buddha is "physician" ever used? I ask because I often > think in terms of that very contemporary word "healing" (as in "healing > one's inner child") when thinking of what we go through as our eyes are > opened to the Dhamma. > > Metta, > Phil > ========================== I believe there *are* suttas that describe the Buddha as a physician, though I cannot give you a reference. BTW, one may note that the 1st noble truth provides the diagnosis of an illness (dukkha), the second describes its [primary] cause, the 3rd the prognosis, and the 4th the method of treatment. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36078 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 6:49pm Subject: Re: charts/ RobM. Hi Larry, I am not sure that we have the same version of Visuddhimagga. Please describe the chart (including page number in your version). Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Rob, > > How difficult would it be to upload the "consciousness" chart from > Visuddhimagga to dsg files? I have been studying this for a couple of > hours today and found it very helpful. I thought possibly it could be > scanned, but a more ambitious undertaking might be with hyper- links and > possibly reformatting. Anything you could do in this area would be > greatly appreciated. > > Larry 36079 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 6:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi Howard (and Christine at the end), Here's a piece of ancient wisdom for you: "If a man goes to the remotest part of the forest - where no woman can hear him - is he still wrong?" * :-) In a similar vein, I was trying to draw you onto the topic of sabhava, I asked you to explain how anatta, as fact, is different from anatta, as description. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: > The word 'anatta' is an adjective. What it stands for is a characteristic or property or lakkhana which happens to hold universally - of all things. It is a reality or actuality or fact. By 'reality', 'actuality', and 'fact' I mean the same. > -------------------------- Agreed, but how is a reality different from a description of a reality? If there is no observer, or witness, to hear the description of a reality is it still a reality? Take, for example, the paramattha dhamma, cetana: it has the characteristic, anatta. How does a noble disciple experience anatta in cetana? Does he say, "There is cetana here, and I can't see anything else, therefore I conclude cetana is anatta, without self?" Or, does he investigate cetana and directly see anatta as being an integral, substantial, part of it? I know the second alternative sounds weird, but I think it is the right one. On the perennial subject of, "formalised patipatti," you wrote: ---------------------------------------------------- > Nonsense. Don't meditate if you don't want to, Ken. But the Buddha trained his followers to meditate. I think the no-meditation view is a radical error, and I think that to maintain that formal meditation was not practice prescribed by the Buddha is utterly absurd. (I hope you will forgive me for being so wishy-washy on this point! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------- If that's wishy-washy remind me not to cross you when you're "loaded for bear." :-) As for calling it nonsense, I'd really like you to reconsider. Remember, the Dhamma is so deep even a Tathagata has second thoughts about trying to teach it. Somehow, we ignorant worldlings have to see the truth of something that is totally contrary to our way of knowing (totally nonsense). It might seem as though the Buddha taught a conventional right practice, but that is simply because we can't imagine how he could have taught anything else. In all of the Pali Canon, there is no mention of formalised vipassana meditation (except for a few misquoted lines from the Satipatthana Sutta). There is no mention of formal samatha meditation (unless you think sitting, straight-backed at the base of a tree, homeless, half-starved and dressed in rags, is somehow a cause, rather than a manifestation, of calmness). And yet, in this total absence of supporting evidence, we cling to the idea of a technique for enlightenment. That's worldlings for you! :-) Kind regards, Ken H * Don't blame me, Christine, Andrew told me that! :-) 36080 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 8:28pm Subject: Re: child, villager, money changer. Dear Nina, thanks for your reply. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Azita, > op 04-09-2004 04:16 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > > > .....snip..... > > A: Does the knowing of a nama or rupa precede the distinguishing of > > kusala from akusala? For example, does panna know a nama from a rupa > > before it knows kusala and akusala? Or once again, am I making it to > > simple? > N: This is a crucial point. Indeed, we cannot know precisely the > characteristic of kusala as nama, of akusala as nama, before there is a very > precise understanding of nama as nama and rupa as rupa, this is the first > stage of insight. We only know roughly, in general, in a conceptual way what > kusala and akusala are. We do not realize them as conditioned namas, we > still take them for mine. That is not the way to really know them as they > are. A. Sujin would say: we have to know first what dhamma, reality, is. But > this is a point that needs a lot of explanation. Not easy to understand > immediately. What is your opinion? > Nina. No, not easy to understand - not immediately and not after a long time!!!! However, for me its crucial to first theoretically know what dhamma means, what is it that we all take for self, for a lasting thing. I think its easy to say there is no self and fool ourselves that we know, but unless a nama or a rupa appears and is known clearly by Sati and Panna, then we will continue to fool ourselves. My opinion is that we cannot hear enuff of nama and rupa; citta, cetasika and rupa - what else is there? Learning how these realities interact, how they relate to each other, how they condition each other - well I think the study just gets harder and often a condition for me to get very despondent, and I see that as defilements that want things to be different to the way they appear......hard to accept defilements, especially when I think its me who has them. A real catch 22, until there is a moment of right understanding, that knows the truth. Clinging, clinging, clinging. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 36081 From: Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: charts/ RobM. Hi Rob, R: "Hi Larry, I am not sure that we have the same version of Visuddhimagga. Please describe the chart (including page number in your version)." L: I have the 1999 BPS Pariyatti Edition but I would bet the same chart is with all BPS Editions. The same chart is also with Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary but I don't think it is on-line. In the Dict. it is a foldout. In my Vism. it is on pages 900 and 901. This has all the reference numbers of the 89 cittas that are used in the text. I think there might be some minor differences from edition to edition. There are some minor differences between the two above that I have. Larry 36082 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 98, short explanation. Dear Htoo, a great pleasure that you join in. Some people are not familiar with atimahantarammana, a very great object. This means, that the process of cittas can run its full course, so that after the javana cittas there are two more moments of rupa left. We come later on to the details. Sometimes the rupa falls away after the javana cittas, does not last longer. It cannot last longer than seventeen moments of citta. Before it comes into range (when the sense-door adverting-citta adverts to it, the first citta of a sense-door process)one moment may have past and then it runs for sixteen more moments, this its full course. Or, more than one moment has passed before it comes into range, and then it falls away sooner. Depending on the duration of the process we have in the sense-door process: very great, great, slight, very slight. In the mind-door process we have: clear and unclear (see T.A. p. 120) Nina. op 06-09-2004 18:41 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > In sense door process after impulsion, there follow 2 successive > cittas called tadarammana cittas if there are enough moments of rupa > still left. This is only possible in case of atimahantarammana. 36083 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit - Dear Sarah, But my Removal series is not ended yet. You will see about the teeth!!! anyway, it is very clear that we cannot understand all these ways if we do not have some understanding of vipassana, it is implied and the co stresses it. The sutta says: with kusala citta abandon akusala, while pressing the teeth. With right understanding! And then the kindness of the Buddha, I just read the story about a rabbit in the co. the Bodhisatta said and explained the causes of the rabbit's fear. I shall come to it soon. I think helpful for all, not just bhikkhus. op 06-09-2004 11:28 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: .We were close to cancelling when I > was pretty ill, but the plans are going ahead again now. N: I am so glad you are better now. I understood that Num and Jaran are coming, looking at Betty's list? Nina. 36084 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] on anattaa, in Pali. Hi Howard, just adding some Pali. op 06-09-2004 06:51 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Howard: > The word 'anatta' is an adjective. What is stands for is a > characteristic or property or lakkhana which happens to hold universally - of > all things. N: I looked at PED. under attaa/ anattaa: n. and predicative adjective. It is both, noun and adjective. as noun: anupassin (S IV, 49, etc.) Contemplation of non-self. in anupassanaa. as adj: sabbe dhammaa anattaa. Nina. 36085 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios op 06-09-2004 18:37 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > [...] >> "82. 'Whatever has the characteristic of cognizing should be understood, >> all taken together, as the consciousness aggregate' .... is threefold according to kind, namely, (I) >> profitable, (II) unprofitable, and (III) indeterminate.(35)" > Sorry if it sidetracks whole thread, but I may be lost here. > I think there is 6 conconsciousnesses, sixth being mano vinaana. > Am I wrong here? N: there are many ways of classifying citta, and one way is sixfold: by way of the object citta experiences through the six doors. You are right. Here it is according to: kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, indeterminate dhamma. The Dhammasangani, first book of the Abh classifies all dhammas, all realities, as threefold. This is followed here in this section. One classification does not exclude others and they all show different aspects. It is not technical, but in order to help us to have more understanding of citta now. It is very important to know when citta is kusala, when akusala, when vipaaka (under indeterminate) when kiriya (under indeterminate). Don't we often take akusala for kusala? Also when the vipaakacitta of seeing has past and we are thinking about it with akusala, and believe it is still vipaaka. No end to confusion. A: And BTW, does arahanta extinction apply to all six or only to > five conventional senses conconsciousnesses? N: I would not call the five sense cognitions conventional, they are cittas. The arahat has eradicated all akusala. He still experiences six kinds of objects but not with kusala citta nor akusala citta. He has vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta. Is this what you want to know? Nina. 36086 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 9:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Dan Dear Dan, I thought today I should send a greeting to Dan, long time, no see. And there you are, this usually happens. When someone is away long I have a habit of sending greetings. I understood that you had some house moving to do. I am glad you are back. Nina. op 06-09-2004 17:19 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > Dear Phil, > I think you are right about when you write "many...consider using > Pali...to be pretentious." 36087 From: Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 5:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/6/04 10:13:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard (and Christine at the end), > > Here's a piece of ancient wisdom for you: > > "If a man goes to the remotest part of the forest - where no woman > can hear him - is he still wrong?" * > > :-) In a similar vein, I was trying to draw you onto the topic of > sabhava, I asked you to explain how anatta, as fact, is different > from anatta, as description. > > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: >The word 'anatta' is an adjective. What it stands for is a > characteristic or property or lakkhana which happens to hold > universally - of all things. It is a reality or actuality or fact. > By 'reality', 'actuality', and 'fact' I > mean the same. > > -------------------------- > > Agreed, but how is a reality different from a description of a > reality? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Why would anyone consider them to be remotely alike, let alone the same? --------------------------------------------------- If there is no observer, or witness, to hear the > > description of a reality is it still a reality? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: A short answer - yes. A different, more important, and far more subtle question, I think, is whether there exist unobserved realities. I think that the answer is yes, but in a very complex sense involving what might be called "counterfactual conditionalities," a topic of interest to precious few, and of urgency to absolutely no one! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------- Take, for > > example, the paramattha dhamma, cetana: it has the characteristic, > anatta. How does a noble disciple experience anatta in cetana? Does > he say, "There is cetana here, and I can't see anything else, > therefore I conclude cetana is anatta, without self?" > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: One who is not an ariyan would not say that. For worldlings, I would say that grasping anatta is an indirect business, only, and involving inference. And even for those non-arahant ariyans, I believe that the full, direct grasping of the emptiness of dhammas is experienced only at the moments of path and fruition consciousness. For these lesser ariyans, I believe that at other times, at best there are merely adumbrations and vague recollections, plus the inferential knowledge also available to worldlings. Arahants, on the other hand, I believe are never without vijja. ------------------------------------------------- > > Or, does he investigate cetana and directly see anatta as being an > integral, substantial, part of it? > > I know the second alternative sounds weird, but I think it is the > right one. > > On the perennial subject of, "formalised patipatti," you wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------- > >Nonsense. Don't meditate if you don't want to, Ken. But the Buddha > trained his followers to meditate. I think the no-meditation view is > a radical error, and I think that to maintain that formal meditation > was not practice prescribed by the Buddha is utterly absurd. (I hope > you will forgive me for being so wishy-washy on this point! ;-) > ---------------------------------------------------- > > If that's wishy-washy remind me not to cross you when you're "loaded > for bear." :-) > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------- > > As for calling it nonsense, I'd really like you to reconsider. > Remember, the Dhamma is so deep even a Tathagata has second thoughts > about trying to teach it. Somehow, we ignorant worldlings have to > see the truth of something that is totally contrary to our way of > knowing (totally nonsense). > > It might seem as though the Buddha taught a conventional right > practice, but that is simply because we can't imagine how he could > have taught anything else. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: No, that's not why. The reason I believe he taught this is that this is what I have seen in the suttas, time and time again. ------------------------------------------------------ In all of the Pali Canon, there is no > > mention of formalised vipassana meditation (except for a few > misquoted lines from the Satipatthana Sutta). There is no mention of > formal samatha meditation (unless you think sitting, straight-backed > at the base of a tree, homeless, half-starved and dressed in rags, > is somehow a cause, rather than a manifestation, of calmness). And > yet, in this total absence of supporting evidence, we cling to the > idea of a technique for enlightenment. That's worldlings for you! :-) ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Evidently we read different editions of the Sutta Pitaka, Ken! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------ > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > * Don't blame me, Christine, Andrew told me that! :-) > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I've heard that one before, Ken. There is a degree of amusement to it, because, in a way, it manages to put down both women *and* men - quite an accomplishment! ============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36088 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 11:07pm Subject: The Buddha as physician (was Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks) Hi Phil, ------------------- KH: > > Hmmm! As one who sees the Dhamma is `descriptive, not prescriptive,' > > Phil: > Interesting line! ----------------------- KH: There was a typo. I am one who sees the Dhamma `as' prescriptive not `is' prescriptive. I'm not that sure of myself. :-) I was alluding to a recurrent dsg discussion started by Jon, as I remember, years ago when he suggested the Dhamma was descriptive. In the debate that followed, Num (or maybe Kom) quoted K Sujin as having said that the Dhamma was "descriptive, not prescriptive." I've been running with it ever since. :-) Suppose the Buddha did prescribe a cure for our ills. (A pretty obvious thing to say whichever way you look at it.) How could that prescription be followed? Remembering there is no controlling entity at the helm, how does one put into practise and verify the cure (the Dhamma)? Try as you might, the only answer you can find (that is consistent with the recorded teachings) is to `know the dhammas that are arising now.' To facilitate this, the Buddha `described' those dhammas in every possible combination and permutation. If we think the Buddha prescribed a course of `things to do,' then we are forgetting, or ignoring, the doctrine of anatta. That will see us following a course of wrong action conditioned by wrong view. There I go answering a question you didn't ask and ignoring the point you were making, which was about "healing one's inner child." Interesting line! :-) Kind regards, Ken H 36089 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 6, 2004 11:38pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Introduction Not to do evil, to cultivate good, to purity one's mind, this is the teaching of the Buddhas. Dhammapada, vs. 183 The mind cannot be purified if we do not thoroughly investigate it. When we try to analyse the mind it seems to escape us, we cannot grasp it. The mind is variable, it changes very rapidly. At one moment there is a mind with attachment, at another moment a mind with generosity, at another moment a mind with anger. At each moment there is a different mind. Through the Buddhist teachings we learn that in reality the mind is different from what we mean by the word "mind" in conventional language. What we call mind are in reality different fleeting moments of consciousness succeeding one another very rapidly. Since "mind" has in psychology a meaning different from "mind" according to the Buddhist teaching, it is to be preferred to use the Pali term citta (pronounced: chitta). Pali is the language of the Buddhist scriptures of the Theravada tradition. Citta is derived from the PaIi word for thinking (cinteti). All cittas have in common that they "think" of an object, but we have to take thinking here in a very general sense, meaning, being conscious of an object, or cognizing an object. The Buddha's teachings explain in a very precise way the objects which, each through the appropriate doorway, can be cognized by citta. For example, colour or visible object can be known through the eye-door, sound through the ear-door. Through each of the senses the corresponding object can be known. Through the mind door all kinds of objects, also concepts and ideas, can be known. Before we studied the Buddhist teachings we had a vague, general idea of a thinking mind and we did not have a precise knowledge of objects which are cognized each through their appropriate doorway. Citta is varied because of the different kinds of objects it experiences. Seeing is totally different from hearing. Citta is varied because of the different mental factors or adjuncts which accompany it in various combinations. The Pali term cetasika (pronounce: chetasika) is to be preferred to the English translations of this term which vary in different textbooks. Cetasika means literally: belonging to the mind (ceto). There are fifty two different cetasikas which each have their own characteristic and function. Later on I will explain the rational of these cetasikas and their classification. There is only one citta at a time, cognizing one object, and each citta is accompanied by several cetasikas which also experience the same object, but which each perform their own function while they assist the citta in cognizing that object. They arise and fall away together with the citta. ***** [Introduction to be continued] Metta, Sarah ====== 36090 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 0:45am Subject: Re: Pali canon in English and Pali? Hello Phil, all, Suttas in Pali, Sinhala, and English can be found at: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/ The Pali is based on the Sri Lanka Buddha Jayanti Tipitaka Series. Sinhala is the A.P. de Soyza's translations. English is by various authors often downloaded from the Internet. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Hello all > > If I recall correctly, someone (Christine I think) once kindly linked me > to a site where we can find the Pali canon (or large parts of it) in Pali > and English. I must have bookmarked it, but can't find it. If there is such > a site, could someone kindly link it again? Thanks in advance. > > Metta, > Phil 36091 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Dear Htoo, (RobM & Phil at the end), We were discussing jhanas and I think you had suggested that in your jhana series: H:> It is pure jhana. it may or may not be within the boundries of Buddhism.’ and that ‘It will not be exactly like samatha of buddhism. Samatha in buddhism are all intended for development of panna or insight. My jhana series is not for that. Just pure jhana.< ..... I may have misunderstood you, but I wrote: S: >All dhammas are within the ‘boundaries of Buddhism’. There is no such thing as a ‘Buddhist jhana’ or ‘non-Buddhist jhana’ in the sense that the realities, the cittas, have their characteristics and functions regardless of how they are described or any views about them< ..... You responded: H:> Were Devimala, Alara and Udaka Buddhists? What about their jhanas? > > Did they do any vipassana? ..... S: i’m not sure if there is any fundamental disagreement between us here or not, but after some delay, I’m going to probe a little further. No offence intended at all. In terms of the cittas which you are enumerating in another series so well, is there any difference at all in a samatha development citta or a jhana citta of one who has heard the Buddha’s teachings and developed a little or a lot of vipassana and one who hasn’t? Obviously one who hasn’t heard of the Buddha or Dhamma will not have these as objects of samatha, for example, but lets say the object -- say breath or foulness of the body or kasina is the same. What would be the difference in the cittas which take these as objects? What about the panna which accompanies these cittas, how is it different? Of course, subsequent cittas will be very different, but we were talking about the development of samatha and the understanding required from the very beginning for anyone. Intentions or wishes to have jhanas, rooted in attachment, for example, will be equally useless whether one calls oneself a Buddhist or not, don’t you think? ***** On another topic -- your very helpful suggestions to RobM, he’s very fortunate to have this assistance. Just a couple of points which surprised me. In (03), you introduced the term ‘media’ to replace his term ‘space’. I assume (but haven’t checked) he was referring to aakaasa rupa, usu. translated as space. I didn’t quite follow your reasoning, but I understand aakaasa to ‘delimit’ other rupas. Also for water, you suggested aapo ‘means saliva’. Again, this would be a rather unusual translation. Aapo has the function of cohesion of other rupas, surely. Finally, for earth (pathavi), you suggested ‘nerve’. You did say it may not make sense to some learners;-). Again, earth is the common translation, but it could be solidity or hardness perhaps. When we touch the keyboard or door, pathavi is experienced, but even if we don’t touch them, the kalapas of rupas making up the keyboard or door still contain these rupas. Actually, I was rather confused by the original statement of Rob’s too (but that probably serves me right for just reading a line or two out of context). You said that in the table on [3.page 18] that the requisites for sense-consciousness given were light, space, air, water and earth.’ Perhaps Rob can elaborate.Usually I read that seeing consciousness is due to 1)visible object, 2)sensitive eye, 3)light, 4)attention (e.g see U Narada, preface to Conditional Relations). On sanna, you particularly liked RobM’s description of ‘looking for distinguishing marks.....’. I’m not sure we could say that sanna looks for anything. It merely marks and then marks again. One point I’m lazy to double-check is on javana cittas. I agree with you that it’s not strictly true to say that each javana citta in the sequence is the same and you elaborated well. As you mentioned, the 1st is weakest and can only bring results in this life, depending on conditions. The last is next weakest and you said it ‘gives rise to its effect starts from immediate next life’. Do you mean this life or next life, depending on conditions or only next life? You said the ‘middle 5 javana cittas give rise their results from the third life to as long as in the samsara’. Can these really not bring a result in this life or the next one even though they are the 'stronger' cittas? Thx for any clarification, Htoo or RobM. I know Rob has written about it before. It's rather academic, but if one's writing a book, better to be accurate. Ok - enough, I’m already in over my head in these details;-). Phil, I’m still hoping we’ll see some of your comments on Rob’s book here too;-) Btw, when we go on our trip to India (pilgrimage sites) in mid-October, we’ll be starting in Bodh Gaya and have 2 or 3 nts there. Not long I know, but if you or anyone is in the region and wishes to visit Bodh Gaya anyway, it would be a good chance to meet a large group of us inc. K.Sujin, have discussions and spend time in this most ‘enlightened’ spot. Again, let me or any of the others know off-list if you’d like more details. Metta, Sarah p.s Htoo, apologies for mixing up topics under your thread subjects. RobM - another topic -bhumis (planes of existence) and why the arupabrahma cittas need rupas as support condition in sensuous planes and not in arupabrahma planes. I raised it with K.Sujin. The cittas are the same and as you rightly said, it's just because of the bhumi or realm. In the 5 khandhas planes, rupas need the support of cittas to be experienced and vice versa. In the arupabrahma planes, the cittas don't need this support (because there are not 5 khandhas arising as I understand). ======= 36092 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi AL, (Phil in passing) I’m picking up the points from your last post (to me) that haven’t been addressed by others like RobK already. (Very grateful when others come in to assist on any threads, btw). In the Spotlight ============= A:> The spotlight method is just sort of a beam of bright awareness that > you can focus on particular mental states, such as depression, fear, > and miserliness. They weaken and dissipate when you shine the > spotlight on them. It's pretty effective once you get it going but > you need to sustain awareness of the tactile sensation of your breath > until it takes birth. ..... S:By all means continue if you find it helpful. I was merely wishing to indicate that this kind of awareness as we’re used to thinking of it is not the same as the characterisitic of sati (in satipatthana) which is not focussed by you or me and which doesn’t select any object in particular to be zapped;-) ...... A:> No wishing or anything involved. .... S: Isn’t there any wishing that the depression, fear or miserliness at these times will dissipate? For most of us, it’s very natural to wish them away and to cling to states when they’re not arising. .... A:> At what stage is stinginess eradicated completely w/ satipatthana? .... S: Sotapanna .... A: > I'm skeptical, I'd think it would be later on. I know spotlight > works, if you look at my eyes you can see I've done some work to clean > it away. the 'spotlight' I'm referring to is a really literally a > mental spotlight, we might use awareness to look at other nama and > rupa but I don't know if we'd call it spotlighting. I'm kind of vague > about what sense of awareness you are talking about. I'm thinking > you mean mindfulness or sati, which I guess you could also call a > spotlight, so yeah. .... S: Sometimes it might seem that good progress has been made when ugly states like this one don’t arise or don’t arise so often. But the tendency still lies dormant waiting for an opportunity to arise until it has been completely eradicated. As I mentioned with harsh speech, we may adjust our lifestyle or practise so that there is no speech at all, let alone harsh speech, for a while, but the tendency is still there. When I refer to awareness or mindfulness in our discussions, I’m referring to the development of satipatthana which has any nama or rupa as object without any selection at all. Just what’s appearing now. As RobK indicated, cittas are arising and falling away too fast to be slowed down or selected or spotted. There’s no self to do this in any case. ..... > > S: Of course it's panna that will start, continue and finish up the > job;-) > A:> I don't see how this is the case. The method I'm referring to is pure > awareness. ... S: When sati in satipatthana arises, panna has to be there accompanying it. In the Satipatthana sutta we read about the development of sati-sampajanna. Sampajanna means panna or wisdom. In many suttas we read about how panna or right understanding is the leader or forerunner. ..... Is Depression a Defilement? ========================= A:> Yeah but depression isn't a defilement, it's a mental state that can > be made to evaporate with the kind of awareness I'm talking about. > That would go a long way towards helping me eradicate all defilements > since I wouldn't be so depressed. ... S: I know this is the popular view. As you’ll see in our study of ‘Cetasikas’, unpleasant mental feeling can only arise with cittas rooted in dosa (consciousness with aversion). Whenever there is dosa, the citta is unwholesome. This isn’t discouraging at all. It’s just the same for us all. Much better to know because this is the way that awareness can really begin to be aware and understanding to develop and know it for what it is. it’s not ‘my’ or ‘your’ depression. It’s an unwholesome mental state which arises and falls away immediately. Often it seems to last, but this is only thinking that it lasts. No mental states or any dhammas last at all. All defilements will be eradicated only when developed panna really understands the characteristics of namas and rupas very, very precisely for what they are -- not self at all. See Phil’s post #35720 and the quote he gives on subtle defilements. (These posts of mine are already too long, so I won’t start requoting or finding refs). Snail Boy;-) ========= A: > It wasn't a ritual. I was walking, and someone yelled out "snail boy" > from their car, so I started walking slowly, and things started coming > into focus. Almost felt like right understanding of contact and > everything was there. But ya, first stirrings. If you have any other > ideas on how to cultivate right view, please share. .... S: I know what you mean. Trust me, better avoided at the hospital if you want your medications reduced;-). It certainly seems that there is more focus and mindfulness when we follow such practices, but I mentioned ‘ritual’, because whenever there is an idea of a particular activity being undertaken in order to have sati arise, it inidcates a lack of confidence in the Buddha’s teachings with regard to conditioned realities arising and falling and beyond any self’s power to exercise any control. As Phil suggested, this shouldn’t be discouraging at all, if understood even a little. It’s liberating. No need to take any special action or restrict one’s life in anyway. Just live naturally. (Phil: ‘Each has one’s own way’ at any given time. Generally speaking we might say ‘my way is to go swimming or to reflect on metta’, but on a deeper level, we can say the accumulations or ‘ own way’ is just at this very moment only-- the present dhammas arising -- and we have no idea about the way for the next moment. Again, if we think we’ll go swimming or reflect on metta as a practice to have more kusala and less akusala, panna can know whether there’s any clinging to self or self view at such times, as you realize.;-)) Continual Awareness =================== A: > Oh Well I get the first part, but I don't see how it means that no > one can have continual awareness of every cita. Why can't they. .... S: Let’s do some elimination. For a start, awareness can only arise with wholesome cittas. So whenever there is depression or any kind of unpleasant mental feeling, there is no awareness. Whenever there is any attachment such as most the time we feel happy or content, there’s no awareness. Whenever there is just plain ignorance, no knowing about anything which includes a large chunk of cittas in my case, no awareness. When there is seeing or hearing or other sense consciousness, or bhavanga cittas in between processes such as in deep sleep, again no awareness. I could go on and on. Even when we come to wholesome cittas, such as at moments of generosity or metta, there is sati at these times, but not the kind of sati we are discussing which leads to the development of satipatthana. ..... Concentration won’t go away;-) ======================= A:> Yah, the breath nimitta I have experienced is access concentration. > If I'm correct wisdom springs from concentration. That's the > threefold training with morality at the start, right? .... S: Again I’d stress panna (wisdom) as being the forerunner. In the Visuddhimagga under sila, you can see wisdom is stressed from the very beginning. There cannot be right concentration without right understanding/wisdom. Wrong concentration or clinging to right or wrong concentration will take one off the path. A:> I think I was, or am now anyway, referring to momentary concentration, > perhaps on a similar level as access, which is the level of > concentration needed to observe everything as it changes > moment-to-moment in one's experience. This is indeed stated in the > Vism. ..... S: Momentary concentration arises all the time. It doesn’t say access concentration is needed to be developed first for the development of vipassana. There will not be any understanding of impermanence until namas and rupas are clearly understood as you can read in the Vism under Stages of Insight. Even if access concentration were a necessary pre-requisite for anything, it can never be developed just by concentrating without any very, very fine understanding of kusala and akusala cittas when they arise. Not Consorting with Fools ====================== A:> In the Mahamangala Sutta when a deity asked the Buddha what is > the highest protection the first line of his response was 'not > consorting with fools'. .... S: And yet, on a deeper level, it all comes down to our cittas whilst we are with fools. I wrote a long post sometime about the deeper meaning about associating with ‘superior persons’ as a condition for becoming a sotapanna with lots of references. In brief, it doesn’t mean one has to be in the company of a superior person (i.e an ariyan), but one has to be able to appreciate the qualities of wisdom through one’s own development of panna. This is the meaning of associating with the wise. And so, on a deeper level, not ‘consorting with fools’ means, as I understand, not assuming the same foolish characteristics or defilemens of a fool. As we discussed in an earlier ‘seclusion’ thread, wisdom can grow in the middle of a crowd when there is appreciation of what its nature is and what its objects are. I appreciate that when we are with fools, there may be more conditions for defilements to arise. But the cittas are conditioned this way and understanding is the key, not thinking another environment would be better. .... A:> Can you explain where you are going with this. > > > > Every morning when I do some yoga, have a swim or a walk, I know there > > will be plenty of attachment arising. <...> > > The development of understanding is most important because it can > > understand such attachment or anger or any other dhamma as anatta. .... S: I’m merely indicating that if we try to construct our lives so that there is no attachment or no aversion arising, for example, it merely shows the strong deep-rooted attachment to oneself being a certain way, being a certain kind of person. A friend once told us that his aim was to have a complete change of character (maybe he said a ‘revolution of character’) and for this reason didn’t wish to hear any more about namas and rupas or anatta. The strong clinging to self and his practice led to extreme mental problems. AL, it has to be a pth of detachment from what is conditioned right now. Like in the story James wrote about Patty and Dominique, whether one think’s one is so cool or feels one is so wretched, the problem --the attachment to self -- is the same .... Metta, Sarah ==== A:> Thinking about hoping to live longer than a short time, ..... S: ;-) I think you’re truly fortunate to have such a keen appreciation of the Dhamma at a young age. You have the opportunity to really develop wisdom in this life and also to help others a lot in this regard, Al with your articulate writing and pleasant way. I don’t even need to find quotes as you pick up the points so quickly. As for ‘the kind of sucks’ you mentioned in another post to someone in relation to your good conditions and not having made the most of it.....it’s like that for us all, Al. Better not to look back or have regrets. Just this moment and the way forward;-). Patience til death is never too much.....patience with each conditioned dhamma appearing;-). ============ 36093 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 3:22am Subject: Re: The Buddha as physician (was Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks) Hi Ken, and all > Suppose the Buddha did prescribe a cure for our ills. (A pretty >obvious thing to say whichever way you look at it.) How could that >prescription be followed? Remembering there is no controlling entity >at the helm, how does one put into practice and verify the cure (the >Dhamma)? Try as you might, the only answer you can find (that is >consistent with the recorded teachings) is to `know the dhammas that >are arising now.' To facilitate this, the Buddha `described' those >dhammas in every possible combination and permutation. >If we think the Buddha prescribed a course of `things to do,' then >we are forgetting, or ignoring, the doctrine of anatta. That will >see us following a course of wrong action conditioned by wrong view. Ph: I see what you mean by descriptive. That "descriptive not prescriptive" is one of those lines that will stick with me and help me in considering anatta. Thanks to K Sujin via anata! ("Anata" is "you" - polite form - in Japanese. I couldn't resist. :) ) I still am wondering about whether, in the beginning, people can benefit or not from following prescribed actions, even if in wrong view of self. The other day Nina taught me/us about the various degrees of defilements and the ways of eradicating them.. I still wonder if progress cannot be made on gross defilements, the ones that involve transgressions, by following prescribed actions. For example, the methods of removing distracting thoughts seem explicit and prescriptive. Nina mentions at one point that doing these actions - such as taking inventory of the possessions one has in one's monk bag or writing down the qualities of the Buddha - only brings more akusala unless sati is involved.(If I recall correctly) But it seems to me - for what that's worth- that following these instructions could help when gross defilements and risk of transgressions are involved. So I wonder if it could be said that the Dhamma is prescriptive in the prevention of transgressions in the Vinaya (sp?) and becomes more descriptive as we move into consideration of medium defilements in the suttas, and then thoroughly descriptive re eradication of subtle defilements in Abhidhamma? In any case, thanks again for that juicy line! Metta, Phil 36094 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] VismXIV 97, 98 review --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: Hi all, Corrections and questions are entirely welcome. Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, The dead can never be conscious. Dead-consciousness does not make any sense. I think dying-consciousness makes more sense. Nina uses dying- consciousness. Cuti citta is still alive. There are three anukhanas or 3 submoments. They are initiation, persistence, and perishing or upada, thi, and bhanga. Only after passing away of bhanga, it is called dead. With Metta, Htoo Naing 36095 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 3:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 98, short explanation. Nina: Dear Htoo,a great pleasure that you join in. In the mind-door process we have: clear and unclear (see T.A. p. 120) Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, this is the area where I am not clear of even though I may have may own reasoning. I mean why are there clear and unclear? Which is clear process? Is that those with tadarammana? Which is unclear process? Is that those without tadarammana? With respect, Htoo Naing 36096 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 4:46am Subject: Re: charts/ RobM. Hi Larry, Found it. It is page 881-882 in my version of the Visuddhimagga (translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli, also by BPS; third edition dated 1975). It starts with the profitable (kusala) mental states. I note that this numbering system is different from the Abhidhammatthasangaha (the numbering system with which I am more familiar). No problem in creating a chart, but it won't be ready for a few days as I am really, really busy at the moment. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > L: I have the 1999 BPS Pariyatti Edition but I would bet the same chart > is with all BPS Editions. The same chart is also with Nyanatiloka's > Buddhist Dictionary but I don't think it is on-line. In the Dict. it is > a foldout. In my Vism. it is on pages 900 and 901. This has all the > reference numbers of the 89 cittas that are used in the text. I think > there might be some minor differences from edition to edition. There are > some minor differences between the two above that I have. 36097 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 5:43am Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Thanks for posting these excerpts, Sarah. This is a good topic for discussion. Not that 'most everything discussed here isn't a good topic, it's just that after such a lengthy break, a new thread is a good place to start. I have a few questions from today's excerpt. Beginning with the first line: > Not to do evil, to cultivate good, to purity one's mind, this is the > teaching of the Buddhas. > Dhammapada, vs. 183 My impression is that the "do evil" and "cultivate good" are very much about cleansing the mind and not about cogitating about which action is good and then going out to do that action. If an action appears to be a "good" one by all outer appearances, it still is "evil" if done with an impure mind. Am I way off base here? The second question is about how to interpret the word "function." > There is only one citta at a time, cognizing one object, and each citta is > accompanied by several cetasikas which also experience the same object, > but which each perform their own function while they assist the citta in > cognizing that object. They arise and fall away together with the citta. In my mind, the word function carries a sense of there being a goal or destination and that different parts help the whole move toward the goal. For example, in a restaurant the goal is to provide customers with satisfying food in a pleasant environment. The function of the cook is to prepare the food, the function of the waiter is to deliver the food in a friendly manner, and the function of the busboy is to clear the dishes to make room for the next customers. Clearly, this unifying theme of working toward a common goal is not an aspect of the word "function" as it pertains to dhammas. Cittas don't have a goal, much less share a common goal. Instead, does it make more sense to think about "function" more in the mathematical sense: given some input, the function performs its operations, and the result differs from the original input [note to Howard: the result is of course the same at fixed points, but let's not force the analogy that far!]. In a mathematics, there really isn't anything there besides the function -- nothing to contain the function. Can we carry the analogy to this level with the cittas and cetasikas too? Is there more to a citta or cetasika outside its function? Metta, Dan 36098 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 5:49am Subject: Citta Chart Hi Larry and All, I decided to take a break from my work and create a citta chart in the Visuddhimagga format. Please check it out in the files section and let me know if I made any mistakes. Metta, Rob M :-) 36099 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 6:07am Subject: "Deeds of Merit" - Avoidance of kusala through wholesome deeds Hello all, More ¡ÈDeeds of Merit¡É by K Sujin. (available at zolag. com) K.S. : Each kind of wholesome deed means actually giving up or elimination of defilements. Kusala which is daana, generosity, is the giving up or elimination of avarice, of clinging to possessions. However, besides avarice, there are many other kinds of defilements which should be eliminated. ***** (those who suffer easily from motion sickness should stick with K Sujin and stop reading here. Lots of foggy babbling ahead) Ph; This sounds important. : ¡ÈEach kind of wholesome deed means actually giving up or elimination of defilements.¡É It sounds too easy, to tell the truth. ¡ÈElimination¡É sounds so final. Is it the same as ¡Èeradication?¡É Surely that doesn¡Çt come until much later, sotapanna at the earliest. To try understand it a bit better, I will have to refer to the posts Nina and Christine provided related to the different degrees of defilements. I am still absorbing the post from Nina, but one part is quoting the Commentary to the Digha Nikaya: ¡ÈIn the Vinaya he taught the abandoning of the coarse defilements, because morality is opposed to coarse defilements. He taught the abandoning of medium defilements in the Suttanta, because concentration is opposed to medium defilements. He taught the abandoning of subtle defilements in the Abhidhamma because wisdom is opposed to subtle defilements.¡É I can see how a wholesome act could mean giving up defilements momentarily. Especially coarse ones, perhaps through what the commentary Nina provides calls ¡Ècategorical avoidance¡É that is taught in the Vinaya vs. ¡Èavoidance consisting of elimination and eradication¡É that is taught in the other two baskets. One cannot be producing akusala kamma when one is doing sila. But that moment is so short, with moments of akusala in between moments of kusala. ¡ÈGiving up¡É, which must be the same as ¡Èabandoning¡É must be renouncing. When we are not performing dana, sila or bhavana, there is akusala citta, so at those moments we are ¡Ègiving up¡É defilements, I guess. But ¡Èeliminating?¡É That I don¡Çt understand, but it might be language nuance ? elimination sounds the same as eradication to me, but above we see ¡Èelimination *and* eradication¡É. And I could understand this easier with coarse defilements, defined in A. III, 100 as ¡Èbad body-conduct, bad speech-conduct, bad mind-conduct.¡É When we get to the medium defilements (¡Èsensual thoughts, angry thoughts, cruel thoughts¡É) it seems to me that we are getting into things that cannot be renounced/given up/abandoned just like that. (It¡Çs interesting to think about the difference between the coarse defilement of ¡Èbad mind conduct¡É and the medium defilement of ¡Èsensual thoughts, angry thoughts., cruel thoughts.¡É I guess in the former, precepts are transgressed mentally?) So I wonder if K Sujin¡Çs ¡Èeach kind of wholesome deed means actually giving up or elimination of defilements¡É is tilted towards coarse defilements. Well, avarice, which she mentions, is not that coarse, I guess. I¡Çll keep learning more as I read. Surely I am attached to thinking, to books., to words. If I brought this kind of babbling inquiry to K Sujin she would urge me to consider what is happening *now*. You¡Çve taken so much time with responses to my wordy posts recently, Nina. I¡Çm very grateful for that. Please don¡Çt allow them to take time from your other projects. Metta, Phil 36100 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 6:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) [Phil] Hi Dan, Very happy to see you around again;-) --- "Dan D." wrote: >To take your example of "lobha", English- > speaking people have a whole bag of ready-to-eat conceptions about > what "greed" means, but don't we want to pierce all that baggage and > get to the heart of the issue? "Oh, greed. That's not a problem for > me. It's just those rich Republicans that have a problem with greed." > And then you need to explain that "greed" doesn't really > mean "greed", it means something more like "sense desire." But that > doesn't quite get there either because the Buddhist conception of > sense includes a mind sense among the other five common senses. And > on and on. <...snipped only to set an example here;-) > Good to see you haven't lost your razor sharp way with words -good post. Look forward to hearing more from you. Metta, Sarah p.s should have some good news for you sooon with regard to sending some recordings by email......Like Nina, I had been thinking of you recently (in this connection in my case). Apologies for long delays. Rgds to Lisa. Philip in particular would love any more of her qus on the brahma viharas btw. Also hope the boys are doing well. ========================== 36101 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 1:21am Subject: Void Freedom...! Friends: How to Cross Samsara: The venerable Upasiva once requested the Buddha: Sir, I am alone, dependent, helpless, I cannot cross the flood of sense desire, neither the flood of becoming nor the flood of ignorance, nor the flood of views! Please All-Seeing-One tell me the meditation object, by which I may cross this flood. Aware, direct mind towards Nothingness, replied the Buddha, be helped by relying on the notion: 'Nothing really is...'! Thus by relinquishing all desires, by stilling all speculative disputes & by reviewing the elimination of craving day & night one can croos this flood... Sutta Nipata 1069-70 All yours in the True Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://uk.geocities.com/bhikkhu_samahita/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 36102 From: agriosinski Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 6:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios (was:details of th... Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > And BTW, does arahanta extinction apply to all six or only to > > five conventional senses consciousnesses? > > > > > ======================= > That strongly depends on which sutta you read! ;-) There is at least > one sutta which talks of only the five physical senses ceasing upon the death > of arahant, leaving mind undiscussed. Right, thats why I am interested if there is some sort of explanation to it. On the principle of 12 nidana, we must be creating (sankhara) sense of perception and consciousness. I dont think there is any consciousness if there is noone making experience into object. Now, fear comes into picture. On the same principle it seems that we can drop all this stuff without a fear. This fear is just clinging shifted in time. We crated time, so we go with the story of self in it. And there is sati whispering.... "it never happened...its never been..." ~%) metta, Agrios 36103 From: agriosinski Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 6:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: [...] [...] It is very important to know when citta is kusala, when akusala, > when vipaaka (under indeterminate) when kiriya (under indeterminate). Don't > we often take akusala for kusala? How do we know whats kusala and whats akusala? I use second Noble Truth to find out, is this OK? >Also when the vipaakacitta of seeing has > past and we are thinking about it with akusala, and believe it is still > vipaaka. No end to confusion. > > A: And BTW, does arahanta extinction apply to all six or only to > > five conventional senses conconsciousnesses? > N: I would not call the five sense cognitions conventional, they are cittas. > The arahat has eradicated all akusala. He still experiences six kinds of > objects but not with kusala citta nor akusala citta. He has vipaakacitta and > kiriyacitta. Is this what you want to know? > Nina. Yes Nina, thank you. Let me go a little further. Arahant exeriences objects so there is still sankhara proesses creating them? Or arahant experiences just six different experiences but is not turning them into objects? metta, Agrios 36104 From: Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios (was:details of th... Hi, Agrios - In a message dated 9/7/04 10:17:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, agriosinski@y... writes: > On the principle of 12 nidana, we must be creating (sankhara) sense > of perception and consciousness. I dont think there is any > consciousness if there is noone making experience into object. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm having a bit of difficulty in following what you mean here, Agrios. As far as the foregoing is concerned: 1) I presume that you are speaking figuratively when you speak of "we", and of "no one", and 2) I presume that the last sentence of yours (above) merely reflects sankhara being a requisite for vi~n~nana? ----------------------------------------------- > Now, fear comes into picture. > > On the same principle it seems that we can drop all this stuff > without a fear. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Drop what "stuff"? Also, are you assuming that one can dispense with fear by merely deciding to? (Were it only that simple! ;-) ----------------------------------------------- > This fear is just clinging shifted in time. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: That's good. I like that formulation. --------------------------------------------- We crated time,> > so we go with the story of self in it. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Again, I'm not clear on what you intend here. Indeed, time is mentally fabricated as is self, but are you saying more? ---------------------------------------------- > And there is sati whispering.... > "it never happened...its never been..." > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Or is that pa~n~na? ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36105 From: agriosinski Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 10:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios (was:details of th... Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Agrios - > > In a message dated 9/7/04 10:17:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > agriosinski@y... writes: > > > On the principle of 12 nidana, we must be creating (sankhara) sense > > of perception and consciousness. I dont think there is any > > consciousness if there is noone making experience into object. > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'm having a bit of difficulty in following what you mean here, > Agrios. As far as the foregoing is concerned: 1) I presume that you are speaking > figuratively when you speak of "we", and of "no one", and 2) I presume that the > last sentence of yours (above) merely reflects sankhara being a requisite for > vi~n~nana? > ----------------------------------------------- Yes Howard. Thats right. I wish I could state this as clear as you did. > > Now, fear comes into picture. > > > > On the same principle it seems that we can drop all this stuff > > without a fear. > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Drop what "stuff"? Also, are you assuming that one can dispense with > fear by merely deciding to? (Were it only that simple! ;-) > ----------------------------------------------- drop ...hehe funny... I know what, but I don't know how to write about it. Drop this mental mess. How is that? I am assuming that I can part with being frightened, but I dont think that's something I will deliver to myself. If self will create anything, it will be only to reestablish self existence. I am assuming that fear will arrise if there is any slightest shadow of time crating in place. But will I be frightened if there is understanding that it arrises only to establish self? Will I be frightened if instead of doing, I will just watch? > > This fear is just clinging shifted in time. > > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That's good. I like that formulation. > --------------------------------------------- > We crated time,> > > so we go with the story of self in it. > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Again, I'm not clear on what you intend here. Indeed, time is mentally > fabricated as is self, but are you saying more? > ---------------------------------------------- It seems that I create time just for this one reason. To extend life of self, preserve it till next self will be created and established. Thats the only observation I've had. > > > And there is sati whispering.... > > "it never happened...its never been..." > > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Or is that pa~n~na? > ====================== No idea. I am confusing sankharas with conciousnesses, and now, maybe sanna with sati and panna. metta, Agrios 36106 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] VismXIV 97, 98 review Hi Larry, Thank you. I add something. op 07-09-2004 02:59 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > First, all consciousnesses are classed as one of three kinds of elements: > > 1.Consciousness-element, viññaa.na dhaatu. These are the 5-door sense consciousnesses, > profitable (kusala) and unprofitable (akusala). N: seeing etc. are vipaaka, the result of kusala kamma and akusala kamma. Thus, we have to add the word vipaaka; kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka, profitable resultant and unprofitable resultant. Otherwise people think that they are active, whereas they are passive. In the next paras and Tiika this will be further explained. (reflection in the mirror). L: 2. Mind-element. These are profitable and unprofitable receiving > consciousness N: They are vipaaka, resultant, and thus this has to be added. See above. ,L: and 5-door adverting consciousness. N: Five-door adverting-consciousness, mind-element, is kiriyacitta. (inoperative). L: [Mind door adverting > consciousness is mind-consciousness-element and the same as 5-door > determining consciousness. There is no mind door process determining > consciousness.] N: I would like to turn it around for more clarity. The mind-door adverting-consciousness, manodvaaraavajjana citta, adverts to the object through the mind-door, it is the first citta in that process. The mind-door is the last bhavanga-citta before that process. Now this type of citta performs in the sense-door process the function of determining, votthapana. It is then followed by kusala cittas or by akusala cittas. We should not think of the conventional term determining, it is so fast, only one moment, and it all happens because of accumulated conditions. Thus, it is the same type of citta as the mind-door adverting-consciousness, but here it performs a different function and it is called after its function determining, votthapanacitta. We shall see that one type of citta performs different functions at different occasions. L: 3. Mind-consciousness-element. These are all the other kinds of > consciousness including one kind of adverting (above), N: thus, adverting through the mind-door. L: investigation, > determining, root, registration, rebirth, bhavanga, and death. Any > others? N: When you say root, I think, you mean javanacittas. Root is not a function, but javana is. Let us say, all other cittas, including rupaavacara cittas, arupaavacara cittas, lokuttara cittas. L: Next, all resultant (vipaka) consciousness is caused by (result of) root > consciousness, profitable or unprofitable. The phrase "resultant > mind-consciousness-element without root cause" means not accompanied by > root cetasikas. N: yes, L: All resultant consciousnesses, profitable and > unprofitable, are unaccompanied by root cetasikas except for one class > of profitable mind-consciousness element N: So, here again I would add: mind-consciousness element that is kusala vipaaka. Adding reultant. When speaking of the kaamaavacara cittas (not jhanacittas or lokuttara cittas) we can call it mahaa-vipaaka. These can be accompanied by two or three hetus, roots. L: that performs the functions of > registration, rebirth, bhavanga, and death consciousness. This means > that this kind of registration, rebirth, bhavanga, and death > consciousness is accompanied by nongreed (alobha), nonhatred (adosa), or > nonbewilderment (amoha). N: Two or three hetus. Not always by amoha or paññaa. L: This kind of profitable mind-consciousness-element WITH roots that > functions as rebirth, bhavanga, and death is the rebirth, bhavanga, and > death consciousness of a healthy being [I think???]. The profitable > mind-consciousness-element WITHOUT roots that functions as the rebirth, > bhavanga, and death consciousness is of a human being born with a > physical or mental impairment. It is profitable because it is profitable > to be reborn as a human. The UNprofitable mind-consciousness-element > without roots that functions as rebirth, bhavanga, and death is of a > lower realm being. N: Yes, the last one pertains to rebirth in an unhappy plane. The type that is kusala vipaaka is the result of a weak kusala kamma. Now, the lowest class of heavenly beings, the earth bound devas, can be reborn with this type, but they are not mentioned as being handicapped. I translated a study about this of the Foundation Bulletin. When we see someone who is handicapped, this may have happened in the womb after rebirth. So, nobody can tell with what type of rebirth-consciousness he was born. L: Rebirth, bhavanga, and death consciousness are always resultant and > always have the same object. The object for the next life is the object > of the last consciousness _process_ before the death consciousness in > this life. N: Yes. L:The sphere, and health in the case of sense-sphere, that one > is born into is determined by root consciousnesses in any previous life. N: Yes, by kamma, nobody can change that. Conditions help us to understand anattaa. ****** More about elements. It is difficult to remember what is mind-element and what is mind-consciousness-element. One way is the following. Mind-element only functions in the sense-door process: the five-door adverting-consciousness and two types of receiving-consciousness (one kusala vipaaka and one akusala vipaaka). Mind-consciousness element: see above. The santiira.na-citta, investigation-consciousness, is included, it also functions in the sense-door process but also in the mind-door process as retention or registration, and in process freed occasions. The votthapanacitta in the sensedoor is actually the same type of citta as the the mind-door adverting consciousness, thus this is also included in mind-consciousness-element. Nibbaana is also an element, it is the unconditioned element. ****** Nina. 36107 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 10:40am Subject: Re: The Buddha as physician Hello Phil, (and Howard), op 07-09-2004 00:22 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Interesting line! I've read once once somewhere the Buddha being described > as a physician, and suttas as prescriptions for well being. N: Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning, Co to the First book of the Minor Collection, Ch I, p. 15. One of the Bhantes of dsg wrote long ago a very good post about the Buddha as a physician. I also appreciate the way Howard formulated: cognizing by citta: H: > When "cittas" are spoken of as things that know objects, that makescittas into "little, knowing selves," as agents of a sort, as far as I am concerned.> Well observed and formulated, and such a good reminder. We can repeat the word anatta, but we do not realize it. I shall go more into this. Nina. 36108 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: child, villager, money changer. Dear Azita, The study should go slowly, then there will not be discouragement. I like what you say here:Learning how these realities interact, how they relate to each other, how they condition each other...This will clarify a great deal so that we have more understanding of anatta. But we should not just speak about conditions in general, but realize more: what type of conditions. Nina. op 07-09-2004 05:28 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > My opinion is that we cannot hear enuff of nama and rupa; citta, > cetasika and rupa - what else is there? > Learning how these realities interact, how they relate to each > other, how they condition each other - well I think the study just > gets harder and often a condition for me to get very despondent, and > I see that as defilements that want things to be different to the way > they appear..... 36109 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Subject and object, functions of citta. Hi Howard, This and other posts of yours on citta were the occasion for me to reflect more about citta as non-self. I just add a few observations, things that I find helpful for myself. See below. op 05-09-2004 18:57 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > The word 'vi~n~nana' isn't used consistently throughout the suttas. > Often it means nothing more than awareness or experience or presence of > experiential content. I don't deny the reality of that - anything but. In the > scheme > of dependent origination, however, the word appears to me to denote a > subjectivity or the cognitive activity of an apparent subject that apprehends > an > apparent object (vi~n~nana as subject impacting namarupa as object), the > relating of > two separate, self-existing and substantial realities, subject and object, > and this is the focal point for avijja - this is where avijja does its work. > Vi~n~nana as knowing subject (or cittas as little knowing selves) is what I > object to. I think the Sheaves of Reeds sutta is one of the most important > suttas > in clarifying this issue. N: We have to be quite honest to ourselves: do we take seeing and visible object together, do we take hearing and sound together? We still do. They seem to be , as you formulate it. But from the Dhamma I learnt that we have so much ignorance accumulated.See the dependent origination. Whenever we think and speculate and the objective is not dana, sila or mental development, we do so with akusala citta, and this is always accompanied by ignorance. Conclusion: I am very suspicious about what I believe I experience. I am just blinded. I learn from the teachings that seeing and visible object have different conditions. Seeing is dependent on eyesense and visible object. See Narada, p. 34, base-prenascence dependence. Citta is assisted by accompanying cetasikas that condition it. Such as feeling, sañña, concentration. Seeing has the minimum amount of assisting cetasikas, but after that there are more, and they occur precisely at the right time, it is amazing. When it is time for kusala, the sobhana cetasikas are there to help: with saddha you can overcome all obstacles, sati does not waste the opportunity for kusala. There is detachment so that you do not think of yourself. There is energy, you can do what you did not think possible before. When it is time for akusala there are ignorance, shamelessness, recklessness and restlessness. They are there immediately as soon as akusala citta arises. It is all arranged because of the right conditions. Visible object has other conditions: it can be produced by kamma, citta, nutrition and heat. I know you find that hard to accept. Anyway, visible object itself does not depend on eyesense; it has conditions different from those of visible object. Visible object is not accompanied by cetasikas. As for me, when I consider different conditions it also helps me to understand that nama is quite different from rupa. Citta and cetasika are closely associated, they condiiton each other by association condition, whereas rupa can never be so closely associated. Nama and rupa, even when they are conascent, are conditioning each other by way of dissociation condition. Narada: p. 68. But I also find the sheaves of reed a good simile. In the five khandha planes nama and rupa are together, condition one another. But they are not the same. Then we have the functions of citta. We do not need to fall over the word function, these functions merely show the manifold conditions. Seeing or hearing are not so much actions, they are conditioned events. Lobha is a conditioned event, paññaa is a conditioned event. I quote again about elements, dhaatus: Dispeller of Delusion (Co to the Book of Analysis, I, p.93): Seeing has conditions entirely different from hearing. Thus, there is not one citta that then sees, then hears. If we think in that way we cling to a self. In the suttas it is stressed: when he sees visible object through the eyes, when he hears sound through the ears, etc. Lobha arises with a citta and it performs a function in a process: javana, running through the object. It has different conditions again: the latent tendency of lobha condiitons the arising of lobha with the citta. It is conditioned by way of natural strong dependence-condition. It is very necessary to be precise about the different types of conditions. It is not enough to speak in general terms about conditions and relations. All this info, I find, can sink in and be a condition for direct awareness and understanding, however slow this process may be. But if we want to make it fast, the clinging to an idea of self is in the way. Nina. 36110 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 10:40am Subject: The Removal of Distracting Thoughts. no 9. The Removal of Distracting Thoughts. no. 9 Sutta: Just as a man finding no reason for walking fast, walks slowly; finding no reason for walking slowly, stands; finding no reason for sitting down, lies down, and thus getting rid of a posture rather uncalm resorts to a restful posture, just so should the bhikkhu in whom evil, unskillful thoughts arise, in spite of his endeavor to be without attention and reflection regarding them, reflect on the removal of the (thought) source of those unskillful thoughts. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). **** Commentary: Someone who walks fast may think of what use this is and he will then walk more slowly. The Commentary uses a simile. When a thought occurs to the bhikkhu this is like walking fast. When he considers the occurring of such a thought it is like his walking more slowly. When he has investigated the occurring of such a thought he uses it as the subject of his meditation. N: He can be aware of his unwholesome thoughts and see them as only conditioned elements. Then they are his subject of meditation. When there is awareness and understanding of akusala as naama, the citta at that moment is kusala citta and it is accompanied by calm. The Co. compares the bhikkhu¹s development of vipassana and his attainment of arahatship to the sitting posture of that person. The bhikkhu who spent the whole day with the fruition-attainment (phala samaapatti), experiencing nibbaana, is compared to the person who was lying down. N: Those who have developed jhaana and vipassanaa and attained enlightenment can, after the lokuttara cittas have fallen away experience nibbaana again with fruition-consciousness(lokuttara vipaakacitta). We see that the postures of body, walking, standing, sitting and laying down, symbolize different stages of development of pañña even to the degree of arahatship. Co: It is explained that the movement of the thoughts becomes calmer for the bhikkhu who realizes what the cause and condition is and then these thoughts can be abandoned. N: They are abandoned through vipassana. The abandonment of akusala is true calm. ***** Nina. 36111 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 10:40am Subject: Addition to Intro Vis. 98 Addition to Intro Vis. 98: The Vis. speak about two positions and five positions of the mind-consciousness element that is the santiira.na-citta which is kusala vipaaka. In Pali the word for position is: .thaana: meaning: place, occasion, condition. The Tiika deals in detail with the occasion or position of santiira.na-citta, depending on its function, be it within a process or process-freed, as rebirth-linking, life-continuum, and death. It indicates which citta precedes it and which citta succeeds it, and with what function it occurs in the interval between the preceding and the succeeding citta. When santiira.na-citta performs the functions of rebirth-linking, life-continuum, and death, it arises on many occasions. As bhavangacitta, for example, it arises in between the processes. It arises throughout life. When we consider the different functions of cittas which are dependent on conditions it helps us to see cittas as elements devoid of self. Elements are classified in different ways and one way is the classification by way of eighteen elements, including: the ruupas which are the five senses and the five classes of sense objects, the five pairs of sense-cognitions (seeing, etc) which are pañca-viññaa.na-dhaatu, mano dhaatu (adverting-consciousness and two types of receiving-consciousness), dhamma-dhaatu (cetasikas, subtle ruupas and nibbaana) and mano-viññaa.na-dhaatu (all cittas except pañca-viññaa.na-dhaatu and mano dhaatu). I quote from Dispeller of Delusion (Co to the Book of Analysis, I, p.93): ******* Nina. 36112 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 10:43am Subject: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Sarah: Dear Htoo, (RobM & Phil at the end), We were discussing jhanas and I think you had suggested that in your jhana series: ..... S:I may have misunderstood you, but I wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please do not misunderstand. Jhanas are always pure. When anatta was still not known there were jhana practitioners. Jhanas exist even before The Buddha. Do you assume that jhanas only appeared after The Buddha? --------------------------------------------------------------------- S: All dhammas are within the `boundaries of Buddhism'. There is no such thing as a `Buddhist jhana' or `non-Buddhist jhana' in the sense that the realities, the cittas, have their characteristics and functions regardless of how they are described or any views about them ..... > You responded: > H:> Were Devimala, Alara and Udaka Buddhists? What about their jhanas? > > > > Did they do any vipassana? ..... S: i'm not sure if there is any fundamental disagreement between us here or not, but after some delay, I'm going to probe a little further. No offence intended at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-) I understand. You are always good. I must thank for your support. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: In terms of the cittas, is there any difference at all in a samatha development citta or a jhana citta of one who has heard the Buddha's teachings and developed a little or a lot of vipassana and one who hasn't? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Totally different. In what terms? Before The Buddha anatta was not recognised even in thinking. Characterwise, they are not different. [ ?? More confusion? :-)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Obviously one who hasn't heard of the Buddha or Dhamma will not have these as objects of samatha, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are sunna kappas that is the time when there is no Sammasambuddha at all through out the existence of that earth. Still there are paccekabuddhas. They are arahats. They are jhanalabhi. But they are not Buddhists. They are not the pupils of The Sammasambuddha. They are not the disciples of The Sammasambuddha. Kappa where there are maximum of 5 Sammasambuddhas, in between these Sammasambuddha that is when the Teachings do not exist any more due to regression, there do exist people who attain jhana and are reborn in brahma bhumis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: ..for example, but lets say the object -- say breath or foulness of the body or kasina is the same. What would be the difference in the cittas which take these as objects? What about the panna which accompanies these cittas, how is it different? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Every thing is different. But when summarised, characterwise some fall into the same group. I have told you above. If anatta is not taught, jhanas will not be the same as in jhanas of anattavadis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Of course, subsequent cittas will be very different, but we were talking about the development of samatha and the understanding required from the very beginning for anyone. Intentions or wishes to have jhanas, rooted in attachment, for example, will be equally useless whether one calls oneself a Buddhist or not, don't you think? ***** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have included this in one of my message. As soon as attachment arise, there is no jhana at all. Lobha never accompanies pannindriya cetasika. 'somanassa sahagatam ditthi gata vippayutta asankharika citta' and 'somanassa sahagatam nana sampayutta asankharika citta' are completely different. But for those who do not have enough knowledge and wisdom will not know the difference between these 2 cittas. Why? Both are somanassa. Both will be very happy. Both devoid ditthi cetasika. Both are asankharika cittas. If the difference is not known, then miccha-samadhi arises and the practitioner will attach his miccha-samadhi. Why? Ekaggata cetasika can arise both in kusala and akusala citta. But miccha-samadhi is never rupavacara jhana citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: On another topic -- your very helpful suggestions to RobM, he's veryfortunate to have this assistance. Just a couple of points which surprised me. In (03), you introduced the term `media' to replace his term `space'. I assume (but haven't checked) he was referring to aakaasa rupa, usu. translated as space. I didn't quite follow your reasoning, but I understand aakaasa to `delimit' other rupas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This can be tested. Sound does not pass the space where there is no matter at all. In the water, we can hear sound. Solid brings the loudest, liquid in the middle and air the softest. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah:Also for water, you suggested aapo `means saliva'. Again, this would be a rather unusual translation. Aapo has the function of cohesion of other rupas, surely. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This saliva is the word that I taken from a Venerable. In catudhatuvavatthana kammatthana, there are Aapo such as urine, tear, saliva, digestive secretions, enzymes etc etc. But only saliva works for conduction of taste to taste buds which again will carry along taste fibres of nerves to the brain. Urine does not work here which is Apo. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Finally, for earth (pathavi), you suggested `nerve'. You did say it may not make sense to some learners;-). Again, earth is the common translation, but it could be solidity or hardness perhaps. When we touch the keyboard or door, pathavi is experienced, but even if we don't touch them, the kalapas of rupas making up the keyboard or door still contain these rupas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is not simple pathavi. It is thaddha pathavi. Without which pathavi-photthabba will not be realised. Can paraplegic people sense touch in their feet? There do exist pathavi in their feet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: On sanna, you particularly liked RobM's description of `looking for distinguishing marks.....'. I'm not sure we could say that sanna looks for anything. It merely marks and then marks again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is your sense. I totally agree with Rob M here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: One point I'm lazy to double-check is on javana cittas. I agree with you that it's not strictly true to say that each javana citta in the sequence is the same and you elaborated well. As you mentioned, the 1st is weakest and can only bring results in this life, depending on conditions. The last is next weakest and you said it `gives rise to its effect starts from immediate next life'. Do you mean this life or next life, depending on conditions or only next life? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: the 7th javana citta will give rise its effect in the second life. It is not in this life. Next life. That is immediate next life. I have said this. If this life is 1st, next life will be 2nd and others are called 3rd and after. 1st is very weak. If it does not give rise it effect in this life (1st life ) it will not give rise any further effect in later lives including 2nd life. the 7th javana will give its effect only in 2nd life. The middle 5 javanas are like wheel print that follow the hoof-print of cart-drawer cows. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: You said the `middle 5 javana cittas give rise their results from the third life to as long as in the samsara'. Can these really not bring a result in this life or the next one even though they are the 'stronger' cittas? Thx for any clarification, Htoo or RobM. I know Rob has written about it before. It's rather academic, but if one's writing a book, better to be accurate. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is from Venerable Anuruddha's Abhidhammatthasangaha. I also believe so. No. The middle 5 are not for this life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Ok - enough, I'm already in over my head in these details;-). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are welcome Sarah. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: p.s Htoo, apologies for mixing up topics under your thread subjects. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That's fine. Really fine. No problem. :-) With Metta, Htoo Naing 36113 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 10:56am Subject: Jhana Journey ( 14 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The practitioner needs to practice and exercise his achieved first jhana so that it becomes sharper and sharper. After a long exercising period, he will notice that vitakka ( initial application ) or wandering thought may bring down his jhana to kama thought or kama vitakka. He must be conscious about that. Vitakka is the nearest enemy that threatens his first jhana and he must be very careful with vittaka and its actions. Frequently vitakka may lead to kama thoughts or byapada or destructive thoughts and many other nivarana-related thoughts. He starts to dispassionate vitakka and wants to leave vitakka alone and he really wants to go his jhana without vitakka. So he will try again practising his kasina ' WHITE WHITE WHITE WHITE...' without vitakka. This is very difficult to contemplate if someone has not practiced kasina. Here is a simile. There was a king ruling a country. He had a very familiar minister. Once a man wanted to meet the king. At first he had to do so with the help of his friend the minister. He frequently met the king. As he visited very frequently he became familiar with the king like his friend. So, his friend the minister no more needed to help him meeting the king at later phases. In this simile, the man is vicara and the minister is vitakka. At first without the minister ( vitakka ) the man ( vicara ) would not be able to meet with the king. But as he became familiar with the king the man ( vicara ) no more needs the help of the minister (vitakka ). In this way, the practitioner exercise his jhana again on kasina patibhaga ( counter image ) without vitakka. With practice in the absence of nivarana ( hindrances ) and vitakka he will be able to go on his jhana and the second jhana is now ready to arise. May you all be able to miss out vitakka from your first jhana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36114 From: Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios (was:details of th... Hi, Agrios - In a message dated 9/7/04 1:18:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, agriosinski@y... writes: > It seems that I create time just for this one reason. > To extend life of self, preserve it till next self will be > created and established. > Thats the only observation I've had. > ====================== That's interesting. :-) Your introspection is fresh and interesting. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36115 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 11:34am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 057 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, After 54 kamavacara cittas, we have discussed 12 of 15 rupavacara cittas. The 4th jhana citta have been discussed in the previous post. Again, the practitioner needs to exercise and practise his 4th jhana to be proficient. Through the five exercises, the practitioner becomes to realise that sukha jhana factor is just a close friend of piti and at any time piti may come back again. If so, he will fall back to 3rd jhana from his current 4th jhana. To avoid this he has to depart sukha and he has to stay only in ekaggata. If he cannot stay in ekaggata alone, he will possibly drawn back step by step down to 3rd, 2nd, 1st and then he will be back to kamavacara cittas. If this happen, re-developing of jhana will take his energy. By contemplating on his jhana factors that is sukha and ekaggata, he realises that sukha is weaker than ekaggata and he dispassionates sukha and tries his jhana without sukha. When there is no more sukha and he is well calm, if conditions are right, then the 5th jhana citta is ready to arise. When arises, it arises only once and fall to bhavanga cittas for indefinite time. At a time bhavanga cittas stop and vithi cittas arise scrutinising what has happened just before and then he realises that he attains the 5th rupa jhana. This again needs exercises and practice to become much much more proficient. In this 5th jhana citta, there is only ekaggata as jhana factor and instead of sukha, upekkha vedana replace sukha. This citta is called 5th jhana citta. Above this jhana are arupa jhanas. But all arupa jhanas are 5th jhana cittas as they have only ekaggata. Arupa jhana cittas have upekkha vedana. the 5th jhana citta that has been described above is 59th citta of 89 total cittas. It is called 'upekkhekaggata sahitam pancamajjhana rupavacara rupakusala citta'. This citta gives rise to kamma and this kamma will give rise to arising of rupavacara rupavipaka citta. This citta is 64th citta and it is 'upekkhekaggata sahitam pancamajjhana rupavacara rupavipaka citta'. If 5th jhana citta arises in arahats, it is called rupacvacara rupakiriya citta. In its full name, it is 'upekkhekaggata sahitam pancamajjhana rupavacara rupakiriya citta. This citta is 69th citta of 89 total cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36116 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Dear Htoo (& RobM), [Azita really in passing only], Just a brief note of thanks. I’ll look at your other points later with interest as usual. --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo: the 7th javana citta will give rise its effect in the second > life. It is not in this life. Next life. That is immediate next life. > I have said this. If this life is 1st, next life will be 2nd and > others are called 3rd and after. > > 1st is very weak. If it does not give rise it effect in this life > (1st life ) it will not give rise any further effect in later lives > including 2nd life. > > the 7th javana will give its effect only in 2nd life. > > The middle 5 javanas are like wheel print that follow the hoof-print > of cart-drawer cows. .... S: OK, I’ve just found the detail in Bodhi’s CMA too, thank you: CMA: V#20 for those who wish to check. You are quite correct. The commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Abh-vibhaavinii, transl PTS, p175) also gives further explanation and details the reasons for this. Interesting. [RobM, more on supportive (upatthambaka kamma) in CMA p201 and in the comy just mentioned p174. From the latter: “A wholesome or unwholesome kamma which, although unable to produce a result by itself, becomes the condition for prolonging the result of another kamma or, in keeping with the capacity of the generating kamma, becomes the condition for prolonging the activity of a result that is pleasant or unpleasant by not giving rise to the conditions which cut it off and giving rise to the conditions which enhance it, is called supporting.” Then more on obstructive and destructive kamma in both texts -- also not bringing their own results but frustrating or preventing other kamma from bringing results. I refer to these because of our discussions before about whether all kamma can bring results or whether only kamma-patha can. I understand other kusala and akusala cetana to fall under these umbrellas. For example, lobha cittas now as we write or read may act to 'support' other results. Htoo’s detail above interested me because often we talk (conventionally) about immediate results of actions, such as your super example of kindness which you wrote about when your Abh student passed away. We all understand like this. But we really can’t know what results (vipaka) follows from what actions (kamma), can we? Nothing simple about it!! Better not think too much about it. As K.Sujin would say, the pariyatti is now, knowing about the present proliferation and clinging to a story about the details in my case;-). [Azita, what about the understanding when there is frustration or despondency about details or anything else - again that’s the pariyatti, not the working out the details at the time]. Htoo, thanks for your patience in repeating the details for me that I was too lazy or rushed to find before. Back to sleep! Metta, Sarah ======= 36117 From: Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 8:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Subject and object, functions of citta. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/7/04 1:41:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > This and other posts of yours on citta were the occasion for me to reflect > more about citta as non-self. > ===================== This makes me happy. As I mentioned, I believe it was to Herman, that even when there is disgreement on an issue on DSG, the process of interacting with each other here causes us to consider deeply and well, and this leads us to enhance and clarify - and, on rare occasion ;-), to even redirect - our understanding. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36118 From: Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 3:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: charts/ RobM. Hi Rob, R: "No problem in creating a chart, but it won't be ready for a few days as I am really, really busy at the moment." L: That's great. Take your time; there's no hurry. Thanks. Larry 36119 From: Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] VismXIV 97, 98 review Hi Htoo, H: "The dead can never be conscious. Dead-consciousness does not make any sense." L: You're completely right. I must have made a typo. ~Nanamoli has "death" for "cuti". Btw, I told you I was using the PTS trans. but that was a mistake also. It is the BPS trans. Larry 36120 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hello Dan, and all D > The second question is about how to interpret the word "function." > N:> > There is only one citta at a time, cognizing one object, and each > citta is > > accompanied by several cetasikas which also experience the same > object, > > but which each perform their own function while they assist the > citta in > > cognizing that object. They arise and fall away together with the > citta. Ph: Thanks for bringing this question up. I'm having a more basic problem - well, problem isn't the right word really because it's a part of learning - - how to interpret the word "cetasika?" And that comes from something even more basic - "how to interpret citta?" What is a citta? This basic lack of clear understanding of what we are talking about when we talk about citta and cetasika (and then on to things like their functions) arose thanks to this bit from Howard: H > When "cittas" are spoken of as things that know objects, that makes >cittas into "little, knowing selves," as agents of a sort, as far as I am > concerned. Ph: This brought home to me that I don't *really* know what cittas *are*, let alone cetasikas. Are cittas agents of knowing, mental energies, or what? I don't think it can be explained in words in a way that I can truly understand - yet. Understanding will have to gradually arise, as with anatta and nibanna (well, that can never be understood by the mind) and other tough nuts to crack. I can understand how cittas are categorized, how cetasikas differ from one another to a certain degree, but I don't yet truly know what they are. I thank Howard for bringing that to my attention. It won't stop me from benefiting from studying this book, but I was reminded about how much I *don't* understand, which is good. So needless to say, I can't help to clarify "function." D > My impression is that the "do evil" and "cultivate good" are very > much about cleansing the mind and not about cogitating about which > action is good and then going out to do that action. If an action > appears to be a "good" one by all outer appearances, it still > is "evil" if done with an impure mind. Am I way off base here? Ph: This is what I've been thinking recently. But I also thought that in addition to making the mistake of cogitating about what action is good and then going to do it but ending up with akusala citta because there was impure mind lying beneath, we could also get caught up in thinking too much about whether there were pure intentions or not, and end up missing the opportunity to do good deeds because we are thinking too much. All this thinking about thinking about thinking, on my part anyways! But I do have faith that if we press on in our thinking in the company of good Dhamma friends, the thinking will gradually evaporate and something more direct will be revealed to the patient mind. I'm reading "Deeds of Merit" by K Sujin in order to increase my understanding of when there are opportunities for good deeds. BTW, thanks for your comments on the importance of Pali the other day. Your example re "greed" was very helpful. Metta, Phil 36121 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 4:57pm Subject: contemplation on kindness of strangers Hello all This was posted at a Brahma-Viharas group I belong to. Every time I see it I find it very powerful and helpful but then I forget about it again! Please allow me to share it with you: " . . . consider the kindness of strangers. So here we think about all the people whom we don't know, without whose efforts, we wouldn't be able to function, we wouldn't be able to survive. Think of all the people and the animals, all the living creatures that go into growing our food, transforming the food, packaging it and selling it. All the people who work in the mines, at the iron and the steel factories, the truck factories and the automobile factories, to produce the vehicles that then we drive, or the vehicles that transport our food to the store. "Let's think of all the people who build the roads that we drive on. People who work at the public utilities board so that we have gas and electricity and water, things we take so much for granted. That we wouldn't have these things without the work and the effort of so many people. Think of the people who work at the telephone company. Think of the people who work in government offices. Again our lives are so intertwined with everybody in the society, not just in our own country and community, but internationally now. That we've received so much from these others. We don't know the people who made our house, electricians, the carpenters, engineers, construction workers - so many people made our home and made the office we work in, the other buildings we use, so let's open our heart to feel the connection and gratitude to them for all the work they've done. They may not have had us in mind particularly when they did their work, but that's not important. The bottom-line is, that they worked hard, and we're receiving benefit from them. And we don't even know who those people are to be able to thank them. "When we think of how many goods we use that have been made in other countries, who are those people who made the goods, what are their [inaudible] conditions, what pain and happiness do they have, and think of how we use the things that they've made with so much effort, and we don't even know who they are to be able to say "Thank you". And yet without their efforts and their actions, we wouldn't have the things that we use in our daily life. So make many, many, many examples from your life. Just take one object in the room where you are, and trace back how many living beings were involved in its existence. How many living beings we've received kindness from. And again let your heart open in a feeling of gratitude and affection for those beings, even though we don't know them, because they have been kind to us." ~ Ven. Thubten Chodron, "Meditation on Kindness and Gratitude and Love" 36122 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 5:06pm Subject: The Buddha as physician (was Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks) Hi Phil, Speaking of egg-on-face typos, I've just looked at my last message to you: > KH: There was a typo. I am one who sees the Dhamma `as' >prescriptive not `is' prescriptive. I'm not that sure of myself. :-) `Prescriptive' should have read `descriptive' - and the writer should go on being unsure of himself. :-) You wrote: --------------- > I still am wondering about whether, in the beginning, people can benefit or not from following prescribed actions, even if in wrong view of self. The other day Nina taught me/us about the various degrees of defilements and the ways of eradicating them.. I still wonder if progress cannot be made on gross defilements, the ones that involve transgressions, by following prescribed actions. For example, the methods of removing distracting thoughts seem explicit and prescriptive. Nina mentions at one point that doing these actions - such as taking inventory of the possessions one has in one's monk bag or writing down the qualities of the Buddha - only brings more akusala unless sati is involved.(If I recall correctly) But it seems to me - for what that's worth - that following these instructions could help when gross defilements and risk of transgressions are involved. > ----------------------- I think I know what you mean: If we are putting a lesser form of akusala in place of a greater form of akusala, we will be doing ourselves a favour (of sorts). In fact, isn't that one of the methods Nina was talking about? (Not sure.) In any case, I am sure we ordinary people use that method every day whether we have heard the Dhamma or not. A person might be tempted to hit someone but then settle for a lesser form of unwholesomeness - by, for example, using derogatory speech. But will the same thing happen when we make a ritual of it? Firstly, we would need to be sure the bad kamma we are rejecting is worse than the bad kamma we are accepting. Do any of us know prevailing conditions that well? (We might not have been about to hit anyone at all; we might have just been thinking about it.) Secondly, how do we direct our mind to engage in derogatory speech? It could just as easily happen that we become frustrated by our lack of self- expression, lose our temper, and hit the person twice as hard! It is good to understand how kamma-reducing methods work - understanding will lead to practice when the conditions are right - but it is not good to make a ritual of them. Instead, we should leave them to the natural course of daily life. --------------------- Ph: > So I wonder if it could be said that the Dhamma is prescriptive in the prevention of transgressions in the Vinaya (sp?) and becomes more descriptive as we move into consideration of medium defilements in the suttas, and then thoroughly descriptive re eradication of subtle defilements in Abhidhamma? ---------------------- Nice theory! But I think it would be better to understand how the Dhamma can never be prescriptive. The word `prescriptive' applies in conventional reality where there are living beings, places to go and things to do. A doctor can prescribe that we "go to bed and take these pills" and we will (usually) do as we are told, but, in absolute reality, only conditioned dhammas have appeared and disappeared - without any control whatsoever. ----------- Ph: > In any case, thanks again for that juicy line! ----------- Use it in good health! Just watch for typos. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 36123 From: Andrew Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 5:38pm Subject: Re: contemplation on kindness of strangers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > Hello all > > This was posted at a Brahma-Viharas group I belong to. Every time I see > it I find it very powerful and helpful but then I forget about it again! > Please allow me to share it with you: > > " . . . consider the kindness of strangers. So here we think about > all the people whom we don't know, without whose efforts, we wouldn't > be able to function, we wouldn't be able to survive. Think of all the > people and the animals, all the living creatures that go into growing > our food, transforming the food, packaging it and selling it. Hi Phil Thanks for posting this reflection. I am wearing a pair of leather boots at the moment. If I reflect that the cow died and provided its leather as an act of kindness, is that right or am I fooling myself? The boots may well have been made in a 3rd world "sweatshop" by a child supporting its family. Should I think that that child worked on the boots as an act of kindness for the eventual owner? Sorry Phil, but I just get the feeling that this reflection is out of sync with the reality of samsara. How do you *use* the reflection, if that is the right word? Best wishes Andrew 36124 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 6:08pm Subject: Re: "Deeds of Merit" - Avoidance of kusala through wholesome deeds Hello all I found a typo in my muddled post. " When we are not performing dana, sila or bhavana, there is akusala citta, so at those moments we are ¡Ègiving up¡É defilements, I guess." Obviously it is when we *are* performing dana, sila or bhavana that there is *not* akusala citta, so we could be "giving up" defilements, or abandoning them, or taking steps to eliminate them. Thus K Sujin's "Each kind of wholesome deed means actually giving up or elimination of defilements" - I guess. Metta, Phil 36125 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 6:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: contemplation on kindness of strangers Hi Andrew > Sorry Phil, but I just get the feeling that this reflection is out of > sync with the reality of samsara. > > How do you *use* the reflection, if that is the right word? I think I use it as a fabric softener, if you will. We can become too rigid and press too hard. These kind of soft contemplations help give rise to what Nina once memorably (for me) called "gentle cittas." We need times to be soft and gentle in our approach to Dhamma to balance the times that we press hard to crack tough nuts. I do a lot of these kind of soft contemplations in the morning, with my coffee. They seem to set the tone for the day so when I go out in the world a friendly feeling, a "we're in the same boat" feeling arises quite often on its own. > If I reflect that the cow died and provided its > leather as an act of kindness, is that right or am I fooling myself? > The boots may well have been made in a 3rd world "sweatshop" by a > child supporting its family. Should I think that that child worked > on the boots as an act of kindness for the eventual owner? As the Ven. Chodron said, it doesn't matter that the person or animal in question wasn't thinking of the eventual owner. There was hard work, and sacrifice involved, and that implies an act of kindness if you let yourself go with it. > Sorry Phil, but I just get the feeling that this reflection is out of > sync with the reality of samsara. No problem. It's certainly out of sync with our daily reality of people - that is, if we go out into the world with too much determination to get at the truth. I'm all for going soft and using this kind of ""fabric softener" as I call it for a few minutes every morning. I do things like imagining all the people rushing to work on their bicycles, walking in a hurry to get to the station, riding the crowded trains, and see them as trapped in samsara, as I am, and wish us all well. And then when I go out in the world and see such scenes, as I do all the time, that feeling of wishing them well arises on its own. All day, dozens of times a day. It's all middle way. If we only have this kind of practice we'd be deluding ourselves for sure. I was for awhile until I found this group and Abhidhamma. Metta, Phil 36126 From: Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 7:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta Chart for Vism. in Dsg Files Hi Rob. This is great. I didn't find any errors but I have a couple of suggestions. 1. The mind element needs to be identified (35, 55, 70). 2. Perhaps 40, 41, 56, 71, and 72 should be identified as mind-consciousness-element. These are identified as such in the text. 3. In addition to the above perhaps there could be a footnote as follows: Consciousness-element: (34)-(38) and (50)-(54), 10 kinds. Mind-element: (39), (55), (70), 3 kinds. Mind-consciousness-element: all the rest, 76 kinds. 4. Somewhere it should say that Re-birth and death consciousnesses are grouped with life-continuum. 5. Perhaps bhavanga and javana should be life-continuum and impulsion. These are ~Nanamoli's translations. 6. Maybe there could be a footnote with the pali for all the principal terms. 7. The footnote numbers on bhavanga for 42-49 are a little confusing, 2 means 3 roots and 3 means 2 roots. Can we switch these? 8. Instead of "Rootless" ~Nanamoli uses "Indeterminate". This is in the text as well. 9. Perhaps it should be clarified that "Functional" is under the general heading of "Indeterminate" since it is on a separate page. I liked your additions. They definitely added to clarity and comprehensiveness. Good job! Larry 36127 From: Egbert Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 6:51pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hi Jon, > > > > > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > > > ========================================== > > > Preface > > > ******* > > > This book deals with the operations of the mind, citta, and its accompanying mental factors, cetasikas. A detailed study of the many types of cetasikas will help the reader to know his own defilements and to develop good qualities and eventually, to eradicate all defilements. > > > > > > I'm very sorry, but my interest is in the teachings of the Buddha. > A little introduction which will hopefully clarify what I am about to say. What is, is. It is (beyond negation or discussion). It is (being). Truth, falsity or meaninglessness are relations between concepts of what is (real). What is true, false or meaningless is established by reason. It is not real. It is known. What is willed is what is conceived. What is conceived is what is willed. It is not real. It is not known. It is perceived. > I think you mean, the teachings of the Buddha as percieved by Herman and > not anyone else ;-)) > Now I read you as implying that I have no basis for the statements I am making other than my own intentions. If that is your implication, then you are factually wrong. What was taught by the Buddha, as opposed to what was taught by others, is not a matter of wishful thinking. It is reasonably verifiable. It appears to me that what you lay at my feet is actually true of some others in this group, who promulgate what they insist on as having been taught by the Buddha, despite all indications to the contrary. For them, and not for me, there is no other basis for the perception of what was taugth by the Buddha than the will for it to be so. In the scheme of things, it doesn't matter a hoot. What is real is not affected by what is wanted or what is known. Kind Regards Herman 36128 From: Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 7:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] VismXIV 97, 98 review Hi Nina, Thanks for your corrections. I will go on to 99 unless you want some more time. Larry 36129 From: Andrew Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 8:00pm Subject: [dsg] Re: contemplation on kindness of strangers Hi Phil As you know, I live on a farm. We have a lemon tree heavy with fruit at the moment and you might think I have been sucking on lemons all morning! (-: I do understand your meaning regarding the reflection and don't want to discourage you at all. Just a few comments below for the sake of completeness: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: [snip] > As the Ven. Chodron said, it doesn't matter that the person or animal in > question wasn't thinking of the eventual owner. There was hard work, and > sacrifice involved, and that implies an act of kindness if you let yourself > go with it. AT: In the above, "an act of kindness" is clearly a conventional term (a concept) and thus no satipatthana would be involved in taking it as mental object. That's not to say that satipatthana may not arise in subsequent moments with dhamma as object. If we only have this kind of practice we'd be > deluding ourselves for sure. AT: That's an important point you're obviously very mindful of. I've recently been reflecting on how different the Dhamma is when viewed as a recognition of ultimate realities. For example, whenever I go into my house, a butcherbird flies in with me and helps itself to a feed of catfood on the floor. It is a wild bird that I have tamed over many years and has very little fear of humans. I suppose out of "kindness" I fed it initially, but it has now become quite a nuisance and inconvenience to me. Once it gets inside, it takes its time and I have to leave the door open for it to fly out again. The open door is an invitation to other animals to come in and make a mess which I have to clean up later. I try to shut the door quickly to keep the butcherbird out, but he has no fear and flies in through my legs. Once he is inside, I tolerate him and never harm him or hassle him. Conventionally, you could say this was "an act of kindness". But what is actually going on in my mind is mostly unwholesome - annoyance, impatience - and the odd verbal "b*** bird". I suppose that is what I was alluding to - we can call something "kindness" in the conventional sense, but there is more wisdom in knowing the realities it comprises. Bye for now AndrewT 36130 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 9:03pm Subject: The Buddha as physician (was Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Do any of us know prevailing > conditions that well? (We might not have been about to hit anyone at > all; we might have just been thinking about it.) _______ Dear Kenh What an amazingly deep point. We know from studying the Dhamma that there is no self - only namas and rupas arising and ceasing: visuddhimagga XVIII24 " 'this is mere mentality-materiality,there is no being, no person'. Yet don't we reveal our lack of confidence in the Dhamma by trying to change conditions rather than understanding them. Wise teachers of the past (and present) give many types of pratice that helped in life and gave some comfort. But it is only the Buddha who could teach about anatta - so it is well worth learning about this aspect otherwise we are not taking full advantage of his teachings. +++++++++++ Secondly, how do we > direct our mind to engage in derogatory speech? It could just as > easily happen that we become frustrated by our lack of self- > expression, lose our temper, and hit the person twice as hard! > > It is good to understand how kamma-reducing methods work - > understanding will lead to practice when the conditions are right - > but it is not good to make a ritual of them. Instead, we should > leave them to the natural course of daily life. > > --------------------- ! Robertk 36131 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 98, short explanation. Dear Htoo, different translations use different terms. I have also seen the term vivid. As to mind-door: the word clear is used for a process with tadarammana, thus when the mind-door process runs its full course. It is less clear without tadarammana citta. The Abhidhammattha Sangaha Pali uses for the mind-door process: vibhuuta, clear and avibhuuta, obscure. Nina. op 07-09-2004 12:44 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Htoo: Dear Nina, this is the area where I am not clear of even though > I may have may own reasoning. I mean why are there clear and unclear? > > Which is clear process? Is that those with tadarammana? > Which is unclear process? Is that those without tadarammana? 36132 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Dear Dan, op 07-09-2004 14:43 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > >> Not to do evil, to cultivate good, to purity one's mind, this is the >> teaching of the Buddhas. >> Dhammapada, vs. 183 > > My impression is that the "do evil" and "cultivate good" are very > much about cleansing the mind and not about cogitating about which > action is good and then going out to do that action. If an action > appears to be a "good" one by all outer appearances, it still > is "evil" if done with an impure mind. Am I way off base here? N: Excellent. Without purifying the mind we do not even know what is kusala and what is akusala. We have to begin developing right understanding of dhammas. Without right understanding we are nowhere. > D: The second question is about how to interpret the word "function." N: In Pali kicca. Citta and cetasikas are active, they have a task. Cetasikas are the helpers of citta. And they help each other! Paññaa penetrates the true nature of realities and it is compared to a skilled archer. It needs concentration, otherwise it is wobbly, its hand is unsteady. It needs viriya, otherwise nothing could be done. It needs calm. It needs saddha so that there is assurance. So, many cetasikas are helping friends, each doing their task. D: In my mind, the word function carries a sense of there being a goal > or destination and that different parts help the whole move toward > the goal. N: Different goals at different moments. Akusala citta is assisted by bad friends. They have a mean goal. Causing trouble!! When kusala citta with paññaa arises the goal is right understanding that eventually can eradicate defilements. I do not take so much to mathematics, this is quite a different subject, well over my head! I welcome your remarks and questions, they are inspiring, make one reflect more. Nina. 36133 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali canon in English and Pali? Hi Phil, op 07-09-2004 00:52 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > > If I recall correctly, someone (Christine I think) once kindly linked me > to a site where we can find the Pali canon (or large parts of it) in Pali > and English. N; Just Pali: http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/booklistframe2.html. 36134 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 9:16pm Subject: Re: The Buddha as physician (was Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks) Hello Phil, op 07-09-2004 12:22 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Nina mentions at one point that > doing these actions - such as taking inventory of the possessions one has in > one's monk bag or writing down the qualities of the Buddha - only brings > more akusala unless sati is involved. N: It depends on the cittas, but the idea is to help the monk with kusala citta. Most of all with satipatthana. He is supposed to develop vipassana all the way, since his goal is arahatship. Thinking of the Buddha's virtues will help him and remind him to be aware, to follow the Buddha's teachings, that is, his teaching of satipatthana that is unique. It is not taught by anyone else. Nina. (If I recall correctly) But it seems > to me - for what that's worth- that following these instructions could help > when gross defilements and risk of transgressions are involved. 36135 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios Hi Agrios, op 07-09-2004 15:46 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...: It is very important to know when citta is kusala, when akusala, >> when vipaaka (under indeterminate) when kiriya (under indeterminate). Don't >> we often take akusala for kusala? > > How do we know whats kusala and whats akusala? > I use second Noble Truth to find out, is this OK? N: Good question, it is difficult. We learn in theory, but we can only be sure by direct understanding, and this is only after the first stage of insight, knowing what is nama and what is rupa. We can begin to investigate in our life when the appear. We have some understanding, but then it is mostly by thinking. Knowing the cause of dukkha: but also the noble truths are realized much later, at enlightenment. A: Let me go a little further. > Arahant exeriences objects so there is still sankhara proesses > creating them? N: I would not say that sankhara processes create objects. Objects impinge on the doorways by conditions and they are experienced by cittas in processes. Sankhara has different meanings in different contexts. Sankhara dhammas: all condiitoned dhammas. sankharakkhandha: all cetasikas except feeling and sañña. In the Dependent Origination: abhisankhara: cetana cetasika or kamma: akusala kusala and arupa jhana. A: Or arahant experiences just six different experiences but is not > turning them into objects? N: whatever is experienced is an object. The arahat experiences objects through the six doorways in the planes where there are five khandhas, but he does not react with kusala citta or akusala citta. When his dying-citta has fallen away it is not succeeded by another citta. He has reached the end of the cycle. Nina. 36136 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 7, 2004 9:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] VismXIV 97, 98 review Hi Larry, let's go ahead!!! Nina. op 08-09-2004 04:47 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Thanks for your corrections. I will go on to 99 unless you want some > more time. 36137 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 0:48am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner5-Introduction(b) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Introduction [contd] Citta and cetasika are mental phenomena, nama, which are real in the ultimate sense. Ultimate realities or paramattha dhammas have each their own characteristic, their own function, they are true for everybody. There are four paramattha dhammas: citta cetasika rupa nibbana Citta, cetasika and rupa are sankhara dhammas, conditioned dhammas; they do not arise by themselves, each of them is conditioned by other phenomena. Citta for example, does not arise by itself, it is conditioned by the accompanying cetasikas. Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, visankhara dhamma or asankhata dhamma; it does not arise and fall away. Nibbana is the object of the supramundane citta, lokuttara citta, arising at the moment of enlightenment. What we call in convention language a "person" is in the absolute or ultimate sense only citta, cetasika and rupa. There is no lasting person or "self", there are only citta, cetasika and rupa which arise and then fall away immediately. Citta and cetasika are both namas, realities which can experience something, whereas rupa does not experience anything. Citta and cetasika arise together, but they are different types of paramattha dhammas. In order to explain the difference between citta and cetasika the commentary to the first book of the Abhidhamma, the Atthasalini, uses the simile of the king and his retinue. The king is the chief, the principal, and his retinue are his attendants. Even so are the cittas which arise in our daily life the leaders in cognizing the object, and the cetasikas are the assistants of citta. The cetasikas have to perform their own tasks and operate at each moment of citta. Citta with its accompanying cetasikas arise each moment and then they fall away immediately. ******* [Introduction to be continued] Metta, Sarah ====== 36138 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner5-Introduction(b) Hello all Something I've wanted to ask: N: >Citta for example, does not arise by itself, it is conditioned >by the accompanying cetasikas. Strictly speaking, there can only be one citta or cetasika or any other paramattha dhamma arising at one time, right? So when we hear "accompanying cetasikas", there is indeed a gap, however miniscule, between the rising and falling of the initial citta and the rise and fall of an accompanying cetasika? In the universals, which we'll see soon, there is phassa - contact. That, I guess, would be the first of the accompanying cetasikas to rise. And others would arise in an unfathomably rapid succession? Or are we to take it that the accompanying cetasikas are rising simultaneously with the citta? If the former is the case, would "(cittta) is conditioned by the accompanying cetasika" mean citta - > cetasika - > citta - > more cittas and cetasikas arising in a proximately conditioned way that we call "cittas with accompanying citta? (conditioned by cetasika) If citta is the king and and cetasikas the retinue, why does the retinue condition the king. Wouldn't citta, which I guess is so often akusala or kusala vipaka, condition the cetasikas rather than the other way around? If the latter is the case (accompanying cetasikas arise simultaneously) how can something that is arising simultaneously condition the thing it is arising with? I mean, aren't I correct in understanding that strictly speaking there can only be one paramattha dhamma rising and falling at a time? Thanks in advance. I have gathered so many wonderfully helpful responses that I've printed out and need to read through and absorb, so this will be the last question I ask for a few days. (Or so I say now.) It is good to ask questions but not when one is not taking proper time to reflect on the responses! Metta, Phil 36139 From: Robert Epstein Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 1:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > To my understanding, it is not part of the teaching that a comfortable lay > life is in any sense an obstacle to the development of insight, since it > is the degree of attachment to one's surroundings that is the crucial > factor. A general lessening attachment doesn't necessarily mean one will > change one's lifestyle; and conversely a renunciate lifestyle is no proof > of lack of clinging or wrong view. > > The homeless life is advantageous for those suited to (i.e., capable of) > living it. It is not advantageous for everyone; in fact, it could well be > disadvantageous for a person not suited to it (I think this is said in the > suttas). Hi Jon. I appreciate this discussion. I think it is very easy to fall into the desire for self-abnegation as a means to enhance spirituality. I think the Buddha explicitly rejected this as too extreme. In a sense the quashing of the self rather than seeing it as a formation through insight makes the self appear to be more real; an "enemy" that has to be defeated, and can create further ego-games. On the other hand, I wonder whether you wouldn't agree that certain practices could be seen as indulging the view of a self and that it might be more expedient to challenge that view? Best, Robert Ep. 36140 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: contemplation on kindness of strangers Hi Andrew To tell the truth, in the heat of my babbling I mistook you for a different Andrew, our friend A.L.... Ph:> > As the Ven. Chodron said, it doesn't matter that the person or > animal in > > question wasn't thinking of the eventual owner. There was hard > work, and > > sacrifice involved, and that implies an act of kindness if you let > yourself > > go with it. > > AT: In the above, "an act of kindness" is clearly a conventional term > (a concept) and thus no satipatthana would be involved in taking it > as mental object. That's not to say that satipatthana may not arise > in subsequent moments with dhamma as object. Ph: Maybe because I used to (and maybe still do) write children's stories, or because of the accumulations that make me do that, I see a lot of value in lovely concepts. Certainly there is no satipatthana involved in the practice. I am not wielding lovely concepts as purposefully as I used to - I used to occasionally get teary-eyed thinking of the suffering of trees and houses being torn down - but I still think there is value in them as long as one doesn't mistake them for something deeper and truer. I remember reading about the two wings of wisdom and compassion, and after reading your post I googled it. It seems to be mainly in TIbetan Buddhism that this is discussed. In DSG we are devoted to developing wisdom (ie panna). Surely that is our forte, if you will. And we come to see that compassion arises or fails to arise due to conditions. In other traditions, compassion is used in a more intentional way. There is probably a lot of wrong view involved. But now that I'm feeling firmly in/on the wisdom wing I wonder if I'm ready to flirt with intentional compassion like I used to. We'll see. It certainly seems to make my cittas gentle and more patient during the day, without the danger of thinking that a peaceful calm is an end in itself like I used to. And now there is much better understanding of anatta, of the aggregates, of the four noble truths, than there ever was before - thanks to Abhidhamma. That will keep me away from woozy excesses. Yes, I think some practices that are clearly wrong in terms of wrong view can still be valuable when used intentionally, with awareness that there's wrong view, especially by beginners like myself. Playing with akusala? Maybe. Ph :> If we only have this kind of practice we'd be > > deluding ourselves for sure. > > AT: That's an important point you're obviously very mindful of. Ph: Yes, I am mindful of it. AT > I've recently been reflecting on how different the Dhamma is when > viewed as a recognition of ultimate realities. For example, whenever > I go into my house, a butcherbird flies in with me and helps itself > to a feed of catfood on the floor. It is a wild bird that I have > tamed over many years and has very little fear of humans. I suppose > out of "kindness" I fed it initially, but it has now become quite a > nuisance and inconvenience to me. Once it gets inside, it takes its > time and I have to leave the door open for it to fly out again. The > open door is an invitation to other animals to come in and make a > mess which I have to clean up later. I try to shut the door quickly > to keep the butcherbird out, but he has no fear and flies in through > my legs. Once he is inside, I tolerate him and never harm him or > hassle him. Conventionally, you could say this was "an act of > kindness". But what is actually going on in my mind is mostly > unwholesome - annoyance, impatience - and the odd verbal "b*** bird". Ph: But the kindness is also there. As an ultimate reality. Moments of kindness, moments of irritation. That doesn't take away the value of the kindness. Great anecdote. It reminds me of the cockroaches that I make an effort to take outside but often end up crushing or drowning by mistake when I get irritated and impatient about tracking them down and scooping them up gently. There is compassion as an ultimate reality, and aversion as an ultimate reality. I'm sure the effort to rescue them arose as a result of conventional thinking and lovely concepts of frightened little insects. Well, of course there is the precept against killing them.... > I suppose that is what I was alluding to - we can call > something "kindness" in the conventional sense, but there is more > wisdom in knowing the realities it comprises. Ph: Absolutely agreed. Absolutely. Nice talking with you, Andrew. Metta, Phil 36141 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 2:49am Subject: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) .... S: OK, I've just found the detail in Bodhi's CMA too, thank you: CMA: V#20 for those who wish to check. You are quite correct. The commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Abh-vibhaavinii, transl PTS, p175) also gives further explanation and details the reasons for this.Interesting. I refer to these because of our discussions before about whether all kamma can bring results or whether only kamma-patha can. I understand other kusala and akusala cetana to fall under these umbrellas. For example, lobha cittas now as we write or read may act to 'support' other results. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now, I understand that you understood. When we were discussing, I felt a bit strange that you said not all akusala cittas give rise to kamma and only kamma-patha actions will give rise to vipaka. Now you got it clear. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Htoo's detail above interested me because often we talk (conventionally)about immediate results of actions, such as your super example of kindness which you wrote about when your Abh student passed away. We all understand like this. But we really can't know what results (vipaka) follows from what actions (kamma), can we? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is for Sammasambuddhas. Even great arahats may not know what results ( vipaka ) follows from what actions ( kamma ). The story of Venerable Culapanthaka is a good example. I have written this frequently in other groups. The daughter of a rich man in a city fell in love with a servant of thier own and ran away to a small village where the man's parents and relatives lived. When the 1st pregnancy arose, the woman asked her husband to go and give childbirth at her parents' home. Even though he was afraid to go, he agreed. But the baby was born on the way to parents' home. The baby was named 'PATH' or 'ROAD' or 'WAY'. In Pali, his name is 'Panthaka'. The same happened when the 2nd pregnancy arose. The second baby was also given 'Panthaka'. The older boy became 'Road Senior' or 'Mahapanthaka' and the younger became 'Road junior' or 'Culapanthaka'. Mahapanthaka joined the order of Sangha under The Buddha. He became an arahat with jhana powers. That is he had pubbenivasa nana or recollections of past live. His younger brother joined in later. Mahapanthaka taught him The Buddha's teachings. But Culapanthaka could not retain any full verse of Dhamma. Culapanthaka was drived out by his brother. He was crying going out through the gate of the monastry. There The Buddha was walking. The Buddha enquired the matter why he was crying and Culapanthaka replied so and so. The Buddha and 998 bhikkhus were about to go for a home visit for feeding. The Buddha did not allow Culapanthaka to leave. Instead gave him a piece of cloth and told him to cite rubbing that cloth as 'Rajo Haranam, Rajo Haranam'. With this single word, Culapanthaka became an arahat with full power. Here my aim is not to tell the story. But first Mahapanthaka drived his brother out. Because he did not know what past actions that Culapanthaka did, and he did not know that he would became an arahat with jhana powers. But The Buddha knew everything with regard to Culapanthaka. Once in a life, Culapanthaka was a very poor man. He was a porter in a poor village. He served the owner of peddy fileds. He had to plough preparing the field. Once in a summer season, as it was hot, he was sweaty and took a rest under a tree and wiped out all sweat with his white cloth. There he noticed the 'change' and felt a great shock. That was long long time ago and as kama arammana overwhelmed him again, he forgot this sanna. The buddha knew this in detail and as this would helped Culapanthaka, The Buddha just gave a piece of cloth and made him rub. Through arising of old sanna that there is a great change, panna develped in Culapanthaka step by step and in a matter of a single morning, he became a great arahat ( not ordinary arahat ) and he was given Etadattha or excellence in jhana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Nothing simple about it!! Better not think too much about it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As I said, this is domain of Sammasambuddha. What we have to understand is that as long as akusala cittas or kusala cittas arise there will be vipaka cittas. As we cannot know when we will dry up all kilesa, it is better for us totally avoid akusala. Ayoniso manasikara or inproper attention will make doubt. So just leave these matters. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: As K.Sujin would say, the pariyatti is now, knowing about the present proliferation and clinging to a story about the details in my case;-). Htoo, thanks for your patience in repeating the details for me that I was too lazy or rushed to find before. Back to sleep! Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I must also thank you in setting up DSG. With Metta, Htoo Naing 36142 From: Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi, Nina and Dan - In a message dated 9/8/04 12:17:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Dan, > > op 07-09-2004 14:43 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > > > > >>Not to do evil, to cultivate good, to purity one's mind, this is the > >>teaching of the Buddhas. > >>Dhammapada, vs. 183 > > > >My impression is that the "do evil" and "cultivate good" are very > >much about cleansing the mind and not about cogitating about which > >action is good and then going out to do that action. If an action > >appears to be a "good" one by all outer appearances, it still > >is "evil" if done with an impure mind. Am I way off base here? > N: Excellent. Without purifying the mind we do not even know what is kusala > and what is akusala. We have to begin developing right understanding of > dhammas. Without right understanding we are nowhere. > > > D: The second question is about how to interpret the word "function." > N: In Pali kicca. Citta and cetasikas are active, they have a task. > Cetasikas are the helpers of citta. And they help each other! Paññaa > penetrates the true nature of realities and it is compared to a skilled > archer. It needs concentration, otherwise it is wobbly, its hand is > unsteady. It needs viriya, otherwise nothing could be done. It needs calm. > It needs saddha so that there is assurance. So, many cetasikas are helping > friends, each doing their task. > > D: In my mind, the word function carries a sense of there being a goal > >or destination and that different parts help the whole move toward > >the goal. > N: Different goals at different moments. Akusala citta is assisted by bad > friends. They have a mean goal. Causing trouble!! > When kusala citta with paññaa arises the goal is right understanding that > eventually can eradicate defilements. > I do not take so much to mathematics, this is quite a different subject, > well over my head! > I welcome your remarks and questions, they are inspiring, make one reflect > more. > Nina. > ============================ The foregoing all makes a lot of sense to me. Certainly the formulation uses personification and goal-directed terminology, but it could easily be reformulated in a completely impersonal and matter-of-fact way, I believe. The essential point as I see it is that the cetasikas are operations/activities, and that their effects are of consistent sorts that are traditionally, but not necessarily, characterized in terms of "accomplishment" and of "helping" each other like "supportive friends". The reality as I see it is of impersonal operations that have a regularity to their effect and are interrelated in specific ways. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36143 From: Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner5-Introduction(b) Hi, Phil - In a message dated 9/8/04 4:22:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, plnao@j... writes: > Hello all > > Something I've wanted to ask: > > N: >Citta for example, does not arise by itself, it is conditioned > >by the accompanying cetasikas. > > Strictly speaking, there can only be one citta or cetasika or any other > paramattha dhamma arising at one time, right? So when we hear "accompanying > cetasikas", there is indeed a gap, however miniscule, between the rising and > falling of the initial citta and the rise and fall of an accompanying > cetasika? In the universals, which we'll see soon, there is phassa - > contact. That, I guess, would be the first of the accompanying cetasikas to > rise. And others would arise in an unfathomably rapid succession? Or are we > to take it that the accompanying cetasikas are rising simultaneously with > the citta? > > If the former is the case, would "(cittta) is conditioned by the > accompanying cetasika" mean > > citta - >cetasika - >citta - >more cittas and cetasikas arising > in a proximately conditioned way that we call "cittas with accompanying > citta? > (conditioned > by cetasika) > If citta is the king and and cetasikas the retinue, why does the retinue > condition the king. Wouldn't citta, which I guess is so often akusala or > kusala vipaka, condition the cetasikas rather than the other way around? > > If the latter is the case (accompanying cetasikas arise simultaneously) > how can something that is arising simultaneously condition the thing it is > arising with? > > I mean, aren't I correct in understanding that strictly speaking there > can only be one paramattha dhamma rising and falling at a time? > > Thanks in advance. I have gathered so many wonderfully helpful responses > that I've printed out and need to read through and absorb, so this will be > the last question I ask for a few days. (Or so I say now.) It is good to > ask questions but not when one is not taking proper time to reflect on the > responses! > > Metta, > Phil > > =============================== As I understand it, Abhidhamma countenances conditionality that is co-occurring as well as conditionality that is preceding. You could have the circumstance, for example, that a condition of type D always and only arises when accompanied by conditions of types A, B, and C. The occurrence of D in such a case is one-sidedly dependent on A, B, and C, but that does not imply A, B, and C preceding D in time. Now, consciousness, viewed by the Dhamma as an operation, which I think of as the occurrence (presence) of specific content or "opportunity" for experience, is accompanied (at the same time, that is) by a variety of co-occuring mental operations that are the so called cetasikas. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36144 From: agriosinski Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 5:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: Picking up the thread with Howard and Agrios Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: [...] > A: Let me go a little further. > > Arahant exeriences objects so there is still sankhara proesses > > creating them? > N: I would not say that sankhara processes create objects. Objects impinge > on the doorways by conditions and they are experienced by cittas in > processes. So there are objects before they've been experienced? metta, Agrios 36145 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 6:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Dear Phil, I'm having a hard time writing an adequate response to your question for a couple of reasons. First, I'm out of practice, and, second, the question is enormously difficult -- especially for me, since I have only a beginner's understanding of 'citta'. 'Citta' is simply the experiencing or cognizing of an object. People have an almost irresistable tendency to follow this up with: "Who (or what) does the experiencing?" The Theravada answer is that there is simply the experience. No 'one' experiences it. There is simply the experiencing. "Yeah, but...yeah, but..." -- Hmmm... As my cousin used to say, "No 'yabbuts' around here!" "Yeah, but how can there an experience with no one to experience it?" Oh, for goodness sake! Why on earth would it be necessary to posit a mystical 'someone' to do the experiencing? There is simply the experiencing! What kinds of experiencing? Abhidhammatha sangaha gives a succint list of the kinds of experiencing that arise. There are 89 (or 121) distinctly different types enumerated. It can be very helpful to ponder these -- and in the pondering keep a check on the "yabbuts" all their different manifestations. Here, the word 'experiencing' is not the greatest because it does tend to evoke the response of "who experiences?" and is used so frequently in English other purposes. In particular, we need a word for 'experience at a single moment', and that is how 'citta' is used. Reading through the types of cittas, we see things such as seeing- consciousness and "one [lobha-rooted] consciousness, accompanied by joy, associated with wrong view, unprompted." The seeing- consciousness is simply the registering of a visual object in the mind. The lobha-rooted cittas are the experiencings (cittas) of objects (thoughts), colored by different shades (cetasikas) such as pleasant feeling (vedana), desire for more pleasure (lobha), and the yabbut of 'I like this' (ditthi). > Ph: This brought home to me that I don't *really* know what cittas *are*, > let alone cetasikas. Are cittas agents of knowing, mental energies, or what? > I don't think it can be explained in words in a way that I can truly > understand - yet. Understanding will have to gradually arise, as with anatta > and nibanna (well, that can never be understood by the mind) and other tough > nuts to crack. I can understand how cittas are categorized, how cetasikas > differ from one another to a certain degree, but I don't yet truly know what > they are. Again, it is helpful to think in terms of bare experiencing, the types of bare experiencing, how to recognize the different types of bare experiencings -- all the time excising the notion of a 'who' to do the experiencing. > Ph: This is what I've been thinking recently. But I also thought that in > addition to making the mistake of cogitating about what action is good and > then going to do it but ending up with akusala citta because there was > impure mind lying beneath, we could also get caught up in thinking too much > about whether there were pure intentions or not, and end up missing the > opportunity to do good deeds because we are thinking too much. All this > thinking about thinking about thinking, on my part anyways! But I do have > faith that if we press on in our thinking in the company of good Dhamma > friends, the thinking will gradually evaporate and something more direct > will be revealed to the patient mind. Well said. I would add that when the roots are simply understood, the mind naturally inclines to the 'good deeds'. When the mind is clear, there is no confusion or hesitation about taking advantage of the opportunities to "do good" that arise at every moment. Metta, Dan 36146 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 6:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) [Nina] Dear Nina, I have such a difficult time understanding cittas and cetasikas in terms of 'helpers' and 'goals' and 'friends'. For me, this formulation strongly evokes notions of self and soul for little citta- entities. It is true that the thus-invoked citta-self and citta-soul are one step removed from the great "Self" that I am so accustomed to constructing and calling "I", but they are still little selfs that are uncomfortable for me. I don't think 'helpers', 'goals', and 'friends' inherently and necessarily invoke self-images, but they do tend to invoke self-images for me, so I look for different formulations. The talk of 'goal' reminds me very much of the concept of 'directed evolution', viz. that the evolution of species is directed toward its culmination in human form. It's hard for me to accept that evolution of species proceeds toward a goal. In a very similar way, I have trouble understanding how cittas and cetasikas have a 'goal' (unless they are granted selfness and entityness). I'll keep working at it, though. It is a wonderful exercise to work through such language hang-ups and keep directed toward understanding Dhamma. Thanks. Dan 36147 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 7:01am Subject: Jhana Journey ( 15 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The second jhana arises when the jhana practitioner is able to practice without vitakka. After achieving his second jhana, he has to exercise that second jhana to the extent that he becomes an expert in the matter of the second jhana. The expression here seems to be very easy. But actually is not. After achieving the 1st jhana, the practitioner has to practise to be proficient in his 1st jhana. Then he has to dispassionate jhana- vitakka which is a relative of kama-vitakka. Jhana-vitakka means vitakka cetasika which is a mental facotr that put the mind right on the jhana object. Kama-vitakka is a mental factor and it put the mind directly on kama-arammana or kama objects. Kama objects are sight ( ruparammana ), sound ( saddarammana ), smell ( gandha-arammana ), taste ( rasa-arammana ), touch ( photthabba- arammana ), and mind-object of sensuous things ( dhamma-arammana of kama things ). After arising of dispassion to vitakka, the practitioner again concentrates and attends the jhana object which is patibhaga nimitta of WHITE kasina. When stillness starts to work and there is no more vitakka, the 2nd jhana arises with vicara, piti, sukha, and ekaggata jhana factors. This second jhana should also be examined by the five vasi or five exercised as described in the previous posts. After an indefinite period, he will be more and more confident in his 2nd jhana. At that time he will start to notice that vicara is not a good thing to have. He will notice that vicara is the weakest link in his 2nd jhana. May you all be able to achieve the second jhana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36148 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 7:09am Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) [Howard, Nina] Dear Howard and Nina, I'm with you. But in my ignorance, I still struggle with the personification language and cringe when I hear it. I so dearly crave 'pure' language that is not wrapped in personifications that aversion tends to arise when 'impure' language is used to discuss something that I think should be clean of personification (viz., citta and cetasika). The cringing is evidence of lack of understanding: moha -> cringing. Well, to hell with what "I" think! Away, thou blasted rigidity that cringes! Walk onward to understanding, to liberation from craving and cringing and rigidity! Thanks. Dan 36149 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 7:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner5-Introduction(b) Dear Phil, You ask: > Strictly speaking, there can only be one citta or cetasika or any other > paramattha dhamma arising at one time, right? So when we hear "accompanying > cetasikas", there is indeed a gap, however miniscule, between the rising and > falling of the initial citta and the rise and fall of an accompanying > cetasika? While true that there can only be one object of consciousness at a single moment, there are many characteristics of that moment -- the cetasikas. No gaps whatsoever between cittas and cetasikas. Many cetasikas in a single citta. Metta, Dan 36150 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 7:23am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 058 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, So far, we have discussed on 54 kamavacara cittas and 15 rupavacara cittas. It is useful to repeat these cittas so that these become familiar with and they are well understood. 54 kamavacara cittas have 30 asobhana cittas and 24 sobhana cittas. Sobhana means 'beautiful'. 30 asobhana cittas are 12 akusala cittas, 7 ahetuka akusala vipaka cittas, 8 ahetuka kusala vipaka cittas, and 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas. It is obvious that akusala cittas are ugly and non-beautiful. They are called asobhana cittas or non-beautiful consciousness. 7 akusala vipaka cittas and 8 kusala vipaka cittas are resultant cittas. They are just results and they are not wicked consciousness. But as they do not have any beautiful cetasika such as alobha, adosa, and amoha they are called non-beautiful consciousness or asobhana cittas. 24 cittas are kamavacara kama sobhana cittas and 15 cittas are rupavacara cittas. All rupavacara cittas, all arupavacara cittas, all lokuttara cittas are beautiful consciousness or sobhana cittas. 24 kamavacara cittas have three classes of cittas. 15 rupavacara cittas also have three classess of citta as do 12 arupavacara cittas. These three classes are kusala, vipaka, and kiriya. Kusala here mean kammogenic or kamma-generating, vipaka means resultant that is the direct result of past kusala when they were done, and kiriya means inoperative or functional and they do not give rise to any kamma and they are also not the result of any kamma. These three classes should be well understood. There are 89 total cittas in terms of characteristics. 81 cittas are lokiya cittas and 8 cittas are lokuttara cittas. 81 lokiya cittas are 54 kamavacara cittas, 15 rupavacara cittas and 12 arupavacara cittas. 54 + 15 + 12 = 81 cittas. Lokuttara cittas do not have any kiriya citta and this will be explained in the coming posts. So far 69 cittas have been discussed. Next discussion will be on arupavacara cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36151 From: Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 3:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) [Howard, Nina] Hi, Dan (and Nina) - In a message dated 9/8/04 10:14:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@y... writes: > > Dear Howard and Nina, > I'm with you. But in my ignorance, I still struggle with the > personification language and cringe when I hear it. I so dearly > crave 'pure' language that is not wrapped in personifications that > aversion tends to arise when 'impure' language is used to discuss > something that I think should be clean of personification (viz., > citta and cetasika). The cringing is evidence of lack of > understanding: moha -> cringing. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think that is ignorance on your part, Dan. I agree with you about the personifications - I think they are actually dangerous, playing right into the hands of atta view. This is why, for example, I am uneasy with the language that make cittas seem to be, as I put it, "little, knowing selves," and as "agents of a sort" . ------------------------------------------------ > > Well, to hell with what "I" think! Away, thou blasted rigidity that > cringes! Walk onward to understanding, to liberation from craving and > cringing and rigidity! > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, no! I believe you are thinking quite properly. My point was only that the personifications are avoidable. They should, in fact, be avoided I think, or, if used, they should always be accompanied by disclaimers. ------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks. > > Dan > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36152 From: matt roke Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 7:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hi Jon and Herman, Excuse me for butting in. I think we all have the same objective, to try and glean the truth out of what we have available to us. For me I listen to different view points until I find something that I can experience and know or believe to be real or truthful. I try to learn, so that there will be wisdom that knows the true nature of the reality that arises and falls away right now and creates this concept of a Buddha, the Tripitika and the teaching. We seek knowledge from concepts so that there can be the understanding that this is the way it is. MattR 36153 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 7:34am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 058 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The reason why I am using Pali words are for you to be familiar with Pali words. This is what it should be. If you use and understand Pali you will be close to The Buddha. Pali words carry more weightage than translated words which may have diverse meanings. There are 5 Buddhist countries. They are Myanmar, Thailand, Sri Lanka, Lao and Cambodia. Theravadan monks maintain The Buddha teachings. There are little difference in The Buddha teachings as recorded in their respective Tipitakas. This is because they use Pali. In Myanmar The Buddha teachings exist in three forms. 1. Pure Pali 2. Pali with translated Myanmar words 3. Pure Myanmar words When I read tipitaka in pure Myanmar language, it was not as good as it should have been, I sensed. The same thing happen when I read pure English version of teachings. If all three forms can well be mastered, you all will feel that you are close to The Buddha and you may feel that you can hear The Buddha's words. This is the explanation why I am using Pali. This is not to show as jargons but to maintain The Buddha's words as he meant. At any stage, any word if not clear or if not remember its meaning, just reply to the post. I will be happy to re-write about it. With Metta, Htoo Naing 36154 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 7:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 98, short explanation. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear Htoo, different translations use different terms. I have also seen the term vivid. As to mind-door: the word clear is used for a process with tadarammana, thus when the mind-door process runs its full course. It is less clear without tadarammana citta. The Abhidhammattha Sangaha Pali uses for the mind-door process: vibhuuta,clear and avibhuuta, obscure. Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, What about jhana cittas and cittas in rupa and arupa planes. There is no tadarammana cittas. Which is clearer? Kama cittas or jhana cittas? Just contemplating. Htoo Naing 36155 From: matt roke Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 7:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hi Jon and Herman, Sorry I left out this most important part in my last posting. _____________________________ J> I think you mean, the teachings of the Buddha as percieved by Herman and not anyone else H> Now I read you as implying that I have no basis for the statements I am making other than my own intentions. If that is your implication, then you are factually wrong. What was taught by the Buddha, as opposed to what was taught by others, is not a matter of wishful thinking. It is reasonably verifiable. It appears to me that what you lay at my feet is actually true of some others in this group, who promulgate what they insist on as having been taught by the Buddha, despite all indications to the contrary. For them, and not for me, there is no other basis for the perception of what was taugth by the Buddha than the will for it to be so. In the scheme of things, it doesn't matter a hoot. What is real is not affected by what is wanted or what is known. Kind Regards Herman _____________________________ Excuse me for butting in. I think we all have the same objective, to try and glean the truth out of what we have available to us. For me I listen to different view points until I find something that I can experience and know or believe to be real. I try to learn, so that there will be wisdom that knows the true nature of the reality that arises and falls away right now to create this concept of a Buddha, the Tripitika and the teaching. We seek knowledge from concepts so that there can be the understanding that it is this way. MattR 36156 From: matt roke Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 7:52am Subject: RE: The Buddha as physician (was Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks) Hi Robetk and Kenh, _______________________ K> Do any of us know prevailing conditions that well? (We might not have been about to hit anyone at all; we might have just been thinking about it.) _______________________ R> What an amazingly deep point. We know from studying the Dhamma that there is no self - only namas and rupas arising and ceasing: " 'this is mere mentality-materiality,there is no being, no person'. Yet don't we reveal our lack of confidence in the Dhamma by trying to change conditions rather than understanding them. ________________________ If I choose to go and buy soap rather than not wash, would I be showing a lack of confidence in the Dhamma by trying to change conditions rather than understanding them? Confidence in Dhamma is knowing that there is no one there because there is only that which impinges on the eye or some other sense door, nothing more. Is it not? MattR 36158 From: Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 4:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi, Dan - In a message dated 9/8/04 10:14:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@y... writes: > 'Citta' is simply the experiencing or cognizing of an object. People > have an almost irresistable tendency to follow this up with: "Who (or > what) does the experiencing?" The Theravada answer is that there is > simply the experience. No 'one' experiences it. There is simply the > experiencing. > ======================= Yes! And without a subject of the experience, there is no object of the experience. The experience (or experiencing) is merely the presence or appearance of experiential content. That's how I see it. As soon as we speak of there being "a consciousness", and "an object", and a relation of grasping whereby "that consciousness" grasps "that object", we are introducing an atta view, conceptually creating two *entities*: the agent-subject entity, and the grasped-object entity. In the suttas, 'citta' merely means "mind" or "experience". Using 'citta' to mean "mindstate" is not bad - and much of the Abhidhammic terminology goes in that direction, but the use of 'citta' to denote a subjective, knowing agent is dangerous, IMO. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36159 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 10:53am Subject: The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no. 10. The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no. 10. The Commentary relates a Jataka story of a rabbit that became startled on account of a ripe fruit that fell down from a tree. The rabbit was asleep and the fruit fell near its ear so that the noise was very loud. He ran away fast because he thought that the earth was collapsing. Other animals who saw the rabbit running also started to run after it. The Bodhisatta who was at that time the King of the Lions considered that the earth could not collapse since the time for this had not yet arrived. He would find out the reason of the commotion. He asked all the animals, to begin with the elephant and also the rabbit whether they saw the earth collapsing. The rabbit said that he saw this. The Bodhisatta asked him to take him to the place where he saw this. First the rabbit did not want to take him there, but after the Bodhisatta said that he should not fear and he had comforted and pacified him with kind words, the rabbit took him near the tree where he was sleeping. He said that he did not know what kind of sound he had heard. The Bodhisatta explained to the rabbit that he had heard the sound of the fruit that fell and had taken this for an earth quake. he had started to run and caused the other animals to run after him. The Bodhisatta then appeased all the animals and told them not to be afraid. The Co then repeats that when the bhikkhu investigates the cause and the conditions of his unwholesome thoughts, after the Buddha has explained these, he can abandon them. N: The story about the rabbit is an illustration how the investigation of the cause of someone¹s fear can dispel it. We see the compassion and kindness of the Bodhisatta who told the rabbit not to be afraid and consoled him with kind words. Evenso, a person may be afraid of his unwholesome thoughts, but when he understands the cause and conditions for them, he can see them as only naama, as elements devoid of self. He can develop vipassana further so that eventually his defilements will be eradicated. **** Nina. 36160 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Subject and object, functions of citta. Hi Howard, That is why I find it useful and enjoyable to correspond with you, Howard. Nina. op 07-09-2004 21:56 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > This makes me happy. As I mentioned, I believe it was to Herman, that > even when there is disgreement on an issue on DSG, the process of interacting > with each other here causes us to consider deeply and well, and this leads us > to enhance and clarify - and, on rare occasion ;-), to even redirect - our > understanding. 36161 From: Andrew Levin Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 11:06am Subject: Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" > > > > > > > I might be accepting that we have to wait for such occasions of > > awareness to arise, rather than actively cultivating it. > +++++++++++++++ > Dear Andrew, > > > As > > > these levels of understanding develop there is more > > > comprehension of anicca, dukkha and anatta but not until later > > > stages are they clearly seen. The process is a very gradual one > > > that reduces self to one moment only. > > > > Ah. Sort of a slowing down of everything? > > ++++++++++++++++== > > Dear Andrew, > I sometimes see mention of slowing things down in modern texts but > according to the Tipitaka and commentaries the rise and fall of > elements cannot be slowed down. However, wisdom (panna cetasika) is > also arising and passing away and can come in and insight the moment. > ++++++++= Then I'm not sure what 'reducing self to one moment only' means. Can you describe? Also, what do you think are the necessary conditions for insight to begin arising? Is it mere mindfulness of a single nama and rupa here and there- as Phil suggests, or is it constant mindfulness and sustained energy in the practise and observation of phenomenon in their true nature, more of a systematic thing, seeing the three dharma seals in existence, as my practise guide says. > > > > > So we should just experience or know that there is painful > feeling, no > > I or self. I think you're saying we have to investigate every > > instance of "I see" or "I hear" and maybe look for where the > > underlying "I" is for seeing what it really is. My method would > more > > be to practise complete mindfulness, knowing "painful feeling," > > "hearing neutral," "seeing pleasant," and break it all down to > > identifying the phenomenon without taking any of it as self- but > this > > would be on my mindfulness meditation walks, which I have not yet > > incorporated into daily life, which is what your approach is > geared to > > from what I can gather. So it's a difference of how much we are > > mindful of at a time. You want to be mindful of one nama and one > rupa > > at a time, as awareness shifts. I want to try to be mindful of the > > whole load of them simultaneously. /me smiles. This isn't to say > > that truly we can be mindful of them all at once, but to be 100% > > mindful is to be mindful of as much as possible, each split second > > reality into the next, so if I have a pleasant feeling in my toe > and a > > neutral feeling in my hand they are noted within a few seconds or > less > > time frame of one another - and the whole body is like that. > +++++++++++++++++++ > I appreciate that you see mindfulnes is connected to understanding > of the conditioned (anatta) nature of whatever element is object. > You can check: When we try hard to be 100% mindful is it really > with detachment (the right kind) or is there clinging coming in. If > there is clinging it can be known and then one will be able to > adjust and correct any wrong practice that slips in. > RobertK Robert, when we are applying the principles of vipassana meditation and seeing the true nature of phenomenon, shouldn't we be free of craving and clinging, or do we have to root out craving? (I would think craving would already be there waiting to be looked at, whether we are mindful or not) regards, Andrew Levin 36162 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 3:23pm Subject: The First Council / The Fourth Precept Hi all, Is it a breach of the fourth precept to put forward as fact something which is not known as fact? What is the evidence for the reciting of the Abhidhamma at the First Council? Kind Regards Herman 36163 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 3:30pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner5-Introduction(b) Hi all, =========== Citta and cetasika are mental phenomena, nama, which are real in the ultimate sense. Ultimate realities or paramattha dhammas have each their own characteristic, their own function, they are true for everybody. ============ So what does that make "everybody"? If ultimate realities are true for everybody, is everybody an ultimate reality too? Kind Regards Herman 36164 From: Andrew Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 4:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: contemplation on kindness of strangers Hi Phil I've snipped and interspersed a bit below: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > To tell the truth, in the heat of my babbling I mistook you for a different > Andrew, our friend A.L.... AT: That's ok. I don't mind being mistaken for A.L. - he asks great questions! > Ph: Maybe because I used to (and maybe still do) write children's stories, > or because of the accumulations that make me do that, I see a lot of value > in lovely concepts. AT: I wrote a murder mystery once ... different accumulations! (-: > I used to occasionally get teary-eyed thinking of the suffering of trees and > houses being torn down - but I still think there is value in them as long as > one doesn't mistake them for something deeper and truer. AT: I used to do that too. Every time I saw an animal that had been killed on the road, I would think about its parents and how they had lovingly raised it only to see it slaughtered by a car in a moment of terror. I don't have those thoughts often anymore. I just think "it went the way it had to go" and, for all I know, could now be reborn as a human in good circumstances. If so, what is there to be sad about? And of course, when I'm driving, I take very great care not to hit anything if I can avoid it at all. > I remember reading about the two wings of wisdom and compassion, and after > reading your post I googled it. It seems to be mainly in TIbetan Buddhism > that this is discussed. In DSG we are devoted to developing wisdom (ie > panna). Surely that is our forte, if you will. And we come to see that > compassion arises or fails to arise due to conditions. In other traditions, > compassion is used in a more intentional way. There is probably a lot of > wrong view involved. But now that I'm feeling firmly in/on the wisdom wing I > wonder if I'm ready to flirt with intentional compassion like I used to. AT: I was introduced to Buddhism via the Tibetans and remember the 2 wings of wisdom and compassion. I sort of got the impression that the 2 were meant to be bound up in the sense that, if you give something to a beggar KNOWING that he will use it to harm himself, your act of giving isn't compassion because it lacks the necessary wisdom. In terms of Abhidhamma, as I understand it, for worldlings like us, kusala citta can be with or without compassion (karuna); and with or without wisdom (panna). When kusala citta is without panna, there is still an absence of ignorance. All that being so, it seems, we can have compassion without wisdom without ignorance. As that great proof-reader, KenH, would say - corrections welcome! (-: > Yes, I think some practices that are clearly wrong in terms of wrong view > can still be valuable when used intentionally, with awareness that there's > wrong view, especially by beginners like myself. Playing with akusala? > Maybe. AT: Phil, the question that springs to my mind is: why have a practice that conjures up a "wrong view" kind of compassion when instead we can learn to recognise the real thing. Because the real thing *is* out there. Do you ever get a pleasant feeling (of inspiration?) when you come across a stranger who helps you so spontaneously and willingly, when you help a stranger in the same manner or when someone is acting selflessly? Sure, we don't know precisely the content of the mind moments, a great many of which will be akusala, but there must be moments of karuna present too. Enough of my rambling. Nice chatting with you. Best wishes Andrew T 36165 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 4:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi Dan, Phil and Howard, I am enjoying this conversation: allow me to put my oar in the water: When we say, `Citta experiences an object,' are we talking about: A, a single reality - an event, B, two realities - the experiencing and the experienced, C, three realities - the experience-er, the experiencing and the experienced, or, D, none of the above? My answer is `D, none of the above' although I also like `C, three realities.' I think the sentence denotes a reality ("citta"), a function of that reality ("experiences"), and another reality ("an object"). All three are absolutely real, but the second one, the function, is not a paramattha dhamma in its own right. It doesn't have its own sabhava (substance). Corrections welcome. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Phil, > I'm having a hard time writing an adequate response to your question > for a couple of reasons. First, I'm out of practice, and, second, the > question is enormously difficult -- especially for me, since I have > only a beginner's understanding of 'citta'. > > 'Citta' is simply the experiencing or cognizing of an object. People > have an almost irresistable tendency to follow this up with: "Who (or > what) does the experiencing?" The Theravada answer is that there is > simply the experience. No 'one' experiences it. There is simply the > experiencing. > > 36166 From: Egbert Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 4:20pm Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) [Phil] Hi Dan (and Phil), I'm very happy to be reading your posts again. You have shown over the years that your understanding is deep. With regards to Pali, it is abundantly clear that the meanings of words in the Theravadan tradition have changed considerably over time. Words like citta, nama, rupa, nibbana mean totally different things coming from the mouth of the Buddha to what they do coming from the pen of a scholastic. How different people have communicated experience is certainly an interesting topic of study, and coming to a common understanding of what was said by whom about what may also be very beneficial. What is common to us all today is what was common to people of cultures thousands of years ago, and that commonality is well-captured in the concept of the 5 khandas, often used by the Buddha. The Eskimos have over one hundred different words referring to snow. Snow is not just snow, to them. And so the Buddhist tradition has also differentiated more and more in its concepts over time. With this ongoing differentiation, the language expands, the world of meaning expands. And today, the modern English language is capable of expressing far more nuance than any earlier language, if used precisely. But we should never imagine that it is possible to capture experience in words, of any language. But we can, and should be, mindful of our constant efforts to do so. Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Phil, > I think you are right about when you write "many...consider using > Pali...to be pretentious." But you are right: Whenever you study any > new discipline -- whether it be philosophy, biology, psychology, > cooking, etc. -- there is a whole new vocabulary to learn. The Dhamma > is a discipline that Western culture has tasted only slightly, and > the act of learning the new vocabulary greatly facilitates the > learning of the discipline. To take your example of "lobha", English- > speaking people have a whole bag of ready-to-eat conceptions about > what "greed" means, but don't we want to pierce all that baggage and > get to the heart of the issue? "Oh, greed. That's not a problem for > me. It's just those rich Republicans that have a problem with greed." > And then you need to explain that "greed" doesn't really > mean "greed", it means something more like "sense desire." But that > doesn't quite get there either because the Buddhist conception of > sense includes a mind sense among the other five common senses. And > on and on. Lobha has no English equivalent, and investigating the > specifics about just what this "lobha" is is to open a door into the > Dhamma. If we consider carefully what lobha is, what its > characteristics are, what causes it to arise, then we gradually learn > to recognize its arising and passing away in all its manifestations, > its impermanent nature, its emptiness, and its danger (what's a good > gloss for "dukkha" in its role as one of the three lakkhana?). > > Similarly, for the other Pali terms: a precise consideration of the > meanings can shed great light on the Dhamma. "Cetasikas" is a > wonderful tool for studying these meanings. Kudos to Nina for her > careful work. > > Dan > > > > I have heard many people at other groups (and here?) who consider > using > > Pali terms to be pretentious. I can't imagine why. There are so > many English > > translations used. It gets confusing. Lobha, for example. I hope > more Pali > > terms will become as familiar as kamma and dhamma and dukkha > have. 36167 From: Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 4:20pm Subject: Vism.XIV,99 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 99. And this eightfold resultant consciousness without root-cause is of two kinds as well because of having an invariable object and a variable object. It is of three kinds as classed according to [bodily] pleasure, [mental] joy, and equanimity. For (34)-(38) the five consciousnesses have each an invariable object since they occur respectively only with respect to visible data, and so on. The others (39)-(41) have a variable object. For here (39) the mind-element occurs with respect to the five beginning with visible data, and (40)-(41) the two mind-consciousness-elements occur with respect to [all] six. Here, however, body-consciousness is associated with [bodily] pleasure. The mind-consciousness-element (40) with two positions is associated with [mental] joy; the other (41) is associated with equanimity. 36168 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 4:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner5-Introduction(b) Hi Herman Welcome back. "Everybody" is a conventional term, but in the absolute sense there are no people, only rupa and nama, rising and fallling in a conditioned way. For those who don't recognize that Abhidhamma is part of the triple basket, rupa and nama can be understood through the khandas, the five aggregates taught in the Suttanta. Rupa corresponds to the aggregate of form, nama to the other four. So yes, "everybody" is composed of ultimate realities. Are the khandas called "ultimate realities?" I suppose they aren't, otherwise you wouldn't have asked such an easy sounding question! ;) But it seems to me that the Buddha taught towards understanding anatta, in both the Suttanta and Abhidhamma, in different terms (khandas or ultimate realities?) for people with different accumulations and levels of understanding. Since I don't have proper understanding yet, this will sound like parroting to you but I am grateful to be able to repeat what I have learned from good Dhamma friends/teachers. "Everybody" is anatta, of course. We understand that in theory, at least. In my opinion, Abhidhamma is most explicit in getting at what "anatta" is, and understanding Abhidhamma will lead us to a better understanding of suttas. As I said once, it seems to me that studying Abhidhamma is like studying an anatomy text book and the Suttanta is like studying case studies. I would start with the former if I wanted to be a doctor. (I say this despite my recent confession that I don't *really* know what a citta is yet! :) And my failure to remember that while only one citta can rise at a time, it can be accompanied- and is accompanied - by at least seven cetasikas. This bit is irrelevant to your question, I know - just touching ground with the Cetasika study corner on a busy day to thank Dan and Howard for clarification in other posts.) Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herman Hofman" To: Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 7:30 AM Subject: RE: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner5-Introduction(b) > Hi all, > > =========== > Citta and cetasika are mental phenomena, nama, which are real in the > ultimate sense. Ultimate realities or paramattha dhammas have each their > own characteristic, their own function, they are true for everybody. > ============ > > So what does that make "everybody"? If ultimate realities are true for > everybody, is everybody an ultimate reality too? > > Kind Regards > > Herman > > 36169 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 4:49pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi Ken, Dan, Phil, Howard, ================= When we say, `Citta experiences an object,' are we talking about: A, a single reality - an event, B, two realities - the experiencing and the experienced, C, three realities - the experience-er, the experiencing and the experienced, or, D, none of the above? My answer is `D, none of the above' although I also like `C, three realities.' I think the sentence denotes a reality ("citta"), a function of that reality ("experiences"), and another reality ("an object"). All three are absolutely real, but the second one, the function, is not a paramattha dhamma in its own right. It doesn't have its own sabhava (substance). ================ When you say anything, you are using language to communicate. Language has implicit rules and structure. The sentence "Citta experiences an object" is composed of subject - verb - object. The implication of the above sentence is that something is happening to something. It may not be what the speaker wanted to convey, but the hearer should be forgiven for assuming that is what was meant. "I see green", and , "green" with a finger pointing at the grass over there, do not mean the same thing. From the first sentence, the hearer could assume that the speaker has a self-concept, from the second no such conclusion is warranted. The sentence "citta experiences an object", taking the rules of language into account, should be taken as being a substantialist representation of an event. Kind Regards Herman Corrections welcome. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Phil, > I'm having a hard time writing an adequate response to your question > for a couple of reasons. First, I'm out of practice, and, second, the > question is enormously difficult -- especially for me, since I have > only a beginner's understanding of 'citta'. > > 'Citta' is simply the experiencing or cognizing of an object. People > have an almost irresistable tendency to follow this up with: "Who (or > what) does the experiencing?" The Theravada answer is that there is > simply the experience. No 'one' experiences it. There is simply the > experiencing. > > 36170 From: Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 1:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/8/04 7:17:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Dan, Phil and Howard, > > I am enjoying this conversation: allow me to put my oar in the water: > > When we say, `Citta experiences an object,' are we talking about: > A, a single reality - an event, > B, two realities - the experiencing and the experienced, > C, three realities - the experience-er, the experiencing and the > experienced, or, > D, none of the above? > > My answer is `D, none of the above' although I also like `C, three > realities.' > I think the sentence denotes a reality ("citta"), a function of that > reality ("experiences"), and another reality ("an object"). > > All three are absolutely real, but the second one, the function, is > not a paramattha dhamma in its own right. It doesn't have its own > sabhava (substance). > > Corrections welcome. > > Ken H > ============================== As you might suspect, I like C the least - I think itis a terrible choice! ;-) What I find the most interesting is your having D as primary choice, and, indeed, I think that choice D is, itself, very interesting. Care to say anything more about D? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 36171 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 5:14pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner5-Introduction(b) Hi Phil, Thanks for your ongoing kindness. ============== Welcome back. "Everybody" is a conventional term, but in the absolute sense there are no people, only rupa and nama, rising and fallling in a conditioned way. For those who don't recognize that Abhidhamma is part of the triple basket, rupa and nama can be understood through the khandas, the five aggregates taught in the Suttanta. Rupa corresponds to the aggregate of form, nama to the other four. ============== I understand what you are saying in your entire post. I have snipped the remainder for brevity. But surely a discussion of paramattha dhammas as they relate to "everybody" is either a very imprecise use of language, or betrays a misunderstanding of the subject matter. With regards to the status of the Abhidhamma, "recognize" is a very good word to use. I often wonder why, if it is open to question, people assume the Abhidhamma to be the word of the Buddha. The need for external authority in people's lives is the only suggestion I can come up with. There is some evidence to suggest that later commentators have issued their own teachings under the imprimatur of the Buddha in order to enforce acceptance of those teachings. Kind Regards Herman 36172 From: Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 1:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi, Hernan and all - In a message dated 9/8/04 7:52:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > When we say, `Citta experiences an object,' are we talking about: > A, a single reality - an event, > B, two realities - the experiencing and the experienced, > C, three realities - the experience-er, the experiencing and the > experienced, or, > D, none of the above? > > My answer is `D, none of the above' although I also like `C, three > realities.' > I think the sentence denotes a reality ("citta"), a function of that > reality ("experiences"), and another reality ("an object"). > > All three are absolutely real, but the second one, the function, is > not a paramattha dhamma in its own right. It doesn't have its own > sabhava (substance). > > ================ > When you say anything, you are using language to communicate. Language > has implicit rules and structure. The sentence "Citta experiences an > object" is composed of subject - verb - object. > ======================= Thank you for this, Herman. In reading it, I realized that I misunderstood Ken's question. He was, I realize, asking what the statement 'Citta experiences an object' means! Actually, I think that is a statement that should not be made!! You are correct: On the basis of our language use, it says there is some thing, citta, some thing, the object, and a relation holding between them. The citta is an experiencer, the object the experienced, and the experiencing the relation, making C the closest to describing the meaning. And that is indeed why this is a bad statement. The trouble with language is that there is virtually no good way to make a proper statement describing the event one intends to describe. You are absolutely correct in your assessment, Herman. This, in fact, is why a Zen master's reaction to any response given to such a query would be to smack the respondent!! ;-)) Ken, please disregard my other reply. I thought you were talking about the event rather than the sentence intending to describe that event. (I was responding to how to best characterize the *event*.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36173 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 6:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner5-Introduction(b) Dear Phil, Just to add to what Dan said, Even while there are cittas arising at the same time as many cetasikas there are also rupas conditioned by citta. No matter whether we are aware of them or completely oblivious. Robert- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Phil, > You ask: > > > Strictly speaking, there can only be one citta or cetasika or > any other > > paramattha dhamma arising at one time, right? So when we > hear "accompanying > > cetasikas", there is indeed a gap, however miniscule, between the > rising and > > falling of the initial citta and the rise and fall of an > accompanying > > cetasika? > > While true that there can only be one object of consciousness at a > single moment, there are many characteristics of that moment -- the > cetasikas. No gaps whatsoever between cittas and cetasikas. Many > cetasikas in a single citta. > > Metta, > > Dan 36174 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 6:35pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hi Matt, >We seek knowledge from concepts so that >there can be the understanding that it is this way. ============= Thanks for your post. I agree with you. Kind Regards Herman 36175 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 6:48pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 058 ) Hi Htoo, ============= This is the explanation why I am using Pali. This is not to show as jargons but to maintain The Buddha's words as he meant. ============= In the USA, there are some people who maintain that the Bush re-election campaign has God on its side. If such views would ever achieve dominance in that society, life could become much more unpleasant for many people. I think there is great danger for yourself in believing that you have access to the intentions of the Buddha. If there were many who held that belief, the danger would spread to everybody. Kind Regards Herman 36176 From: Andrew Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 8:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 058 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: [snip] > I think there is great danger for yourself in believing that you have > access to the intentions of the Buddha. If there were many who held that > belief, the danger would spread to everybody. Hi Herman Do you accept that the above words apply to you yourself as well as to Htoo? Just wondering ... Andrew T 36177 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 98, short explanation. Dear Htoo, The word clear is just used with reference to a process with tadarammanacitta, and these pertain only to kaamaavacara cittas. It is merely a way of denoting the difference between a process that runs its full course and one that does not. There is not more to it. op 08-09-2004 16:43 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > What about jhana cittas and cittas in rupa and arupa planes. There is > no tadarammana cittas. Which is clearer? Kama cittas or jhana cittas? > Just contemplating. 36178 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) [Nina] Dear Dan, thanks. Perhaps this helps: the cittas are so fast, when we think about them they are gone. We can ask ourselves: which one, which one? That is why the Buddha said: what is impermanent is not self. As to helpers, etc. just a simile which may be helpful for some people. The same for goal. Citta has no time to think of any goal, it just arises because of conditions, and falls away. Nina. op 08-09-2004 15:54 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > I have such a difficult time understanding cittas and cetasikas in > terms of 'helpers' and 'goals' and 'friends'. For me, this > formulation strongly evokes notions of self and soul for little citta- > entities. 36179 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: object Hi Agrios, op 08-09-2004 14:55 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...: >> N: I would not say that sankhara processes create objects. Objects impinge >> on the doorways by conditions and they are experienced by cittas in >> processes. > > So there are objects before they've been experienced? N: Good Q. for thinking over. An object is known, otherwise it would not be an object. A ruupa such as sound has to arise just a tiny fraction of time before it can be known by citta, because rupa at its arising moment is weak. It disturbs the bhavangacitta and then the process of cittas that know it can begin. I probably did not answer all you want to know. Nina. 36180 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 9:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner5-Introduction(b) Hello Phil, Dan is right, several or many cetasikas with one citta. Instead of in one citta I prefer with one citta. Citta and the accompanying cetasikas arise at the same time, at the same physical base, experience the same object and fall away together. Phassa and feeling and the other universals arise together. Phassa conditions the conascent feeling. Next moment another phassa, another feeling. The Visuddhimagga carefully explains this under dependent origination. Nina. op 08-09-2004 10:16 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > > Strictly speaking, there can only be one citta or cetasika or any other > paramattha dhamma arising at one time, right? So when we hear "accompanying > cetasikas", there is indeed a gap, however miniscule, between the rising and > falling of the initial citta and the rise and fall of an accompanying > cetasika? 36181 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 9:33pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 058 ) Hi Andrew, Yes, I accept that it would be dangerous for myself to believe that I knew what the Buddha's intentions were. If it appears otherwise, I would consider it an act of kindness for it to be pointed out to me. Thanks and Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: Andrew [mailto:athel60@t...] Sent: Thursday, 9 September 2004 1:19 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 058 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: [snip] > I think there is great danger for yourself in believing that you have > access to the intentions of the Buddha. If there were many who held that > belief, the danger would spread to everybody. Hi Herman Do you accept that the above words apply to you yourself as well as to Htoo? Just wondering ... Andrew T 36182 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 10:22pm Subject: Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" <> > > > Dear Andrew, > > I sometimes see mention of slowing things down in modern texts but > > according to the Tipitaka and commentaries the rise and fall of > > elements cannot be slowed down. However, wisdom (panna cetasika) is > > also arising and passing away and can come in and insight the > moment. > > ++++++++= > > Then I'm not sure what 'reducing self to one moment only' means. Can > you describe? > +++++++++++++++++++ Dear Andrew, It is something Nina wrote to me a few times. Usually we are caught up in the idea of me being this or that, doing this or that. But actually there six worlds: that of seeing/visble object; hearing/sound; tasting/tasted; and the other doors. All these worlds have different causes and are distinct from each other, it is by separating the worlds into one moment that self is reduced from the whole of 'me' into oen moment only. When my uncle was in hospital I said to him that we might take the whole of the situation and think 'How bad'. But all the time there are different moments. Moments with painful feeling, yes. But then moments when the doctor says something nice. Or when he looks at the pleasant(mildly) wallpaper. All the time in life desirable vipaka and undesirable vipaka is alternating, and then there are always different reactions after the vipaka. But no self- only these different moments. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Also, what do you think are the necessary conditions for insight to > begin arising? Is it mere mindfulness of a single nama and rupa here > and there- as Phil suggests, or is it constant mindfulness and > sustained energy in the practise and observation of phenomenon in > their true nature, more of a systematic thing, seeing the three > dharma seals in existence, as my practise guide says. +++++++++ The essential causes for insight are hearing true Dhamma, considering it wisely and also pubbekata punnata (wholesome accumulations from past lives). Some people hear the Dhamma but it means nothing and they turn away. Some hear it, get interested, but consider unwisely and go wrong in various ways. Andrew you have the ability to consider in a very wise way (and yet you are young and currently having some problems); it shows good accumulations. I don't like the idea of rules about developing insight, most importantly we have to learn what is sati and what only looks like sati. Then different factors assist sati to arise. ++++++++ > > Robert, when we are applying the principles of vipassana meditation > and seeing the true nature of phenomenon, shouldn't we be free of > craving and clinging, or do we have to root out craving? (I would > think craving would already be there waiting to be looked at, whether > we are mindful or not) > > ++++++++++++ The main point with vipassana is to see how anatta every moment is, that every moment arises by complex conditions. If craving arises it is because it is conditioned to arise. It has to accepted and studied so that the causes for craving can be seen. There are four types of clinging(see visuddhimagga xvii 241-3). That of sense desire clinging, wrongview clinging, clinging to rules and rituals, and lastly self view clinging. Note that three of the four are types of miccha- ditthi (the three include all types of wrong view from the gross to the very most subtle). These three are the most dangerous type of clinging and the ones we especially need to understand. See Vissudhimagga xvii246. The path of vipassana gradually eliminates all three types of micchaditthi until at sotapanna they are eradicated forever. Later stages, after sotapanna, then attenuate the clinging to sense desires. I want to emphasize this because one of the big mistakes I made in my early buddhist life was to try to stop having sense desire. It got so bad I would feel guilty everytime I had an icecream. This all comes from a deepseated idea of control and self. And it is not the way to understand. First there must be a gradual removal of wrongview. We have accumulated much defilements and we have to learn to understand them –not suppress them. Most of us have difficulty in comprehending this point as "sense desire clinging is obvious …. not so the other kinds (the three types of micchaditthi)" Visuddhimagga Xvii 246. RobertK. 36183 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 10:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi Herman and Howard, Thanks for your analysis of "citta experiences an object." Herman concluded: ------------------ > The sentence "citta experiences an object", taking the rules of language into account, should be taken as being a substantialist representation of an event. > ----------------- Yes, I'm happy with that. I think it is consistent with the Abhidhamma. Citta, having mental substance, performs the function of experiencing an object. That object, if it is rupa, will have material substance; if it is a nama, will have mental substance; and, if it is a concept, will have no substance at all. Howard, I think you agree with Herman too: ------------------------ Howard: > On the basis of our language use, it says there is some thing, citta, some thing, the object, and a relation holding between them. The citta is an experiencer, the object the experienced, and the experiencing the relation, ---------------------- That was my interpretation also, although, I called the 'experiencing' the `function of citta.' Now, where is the problem? Why am I happy with this while you, both, are not? Is it the word substantialist? I have no problem with substantialism unless it says that concepts are substantial – which they are not, of course. Nama is mentality - it has mental substance - and rupa is materiality - it has material substance. The material substance of rupa is not the materiality known to conventional science. Conventional science hasn't come up with a definition of mentality yet, so there's no clash there. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 36184 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 11:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi Ken and all > When we say, `Citta experiences an object,' are we talking about: > A, a single reality - an event, > B, two realities - the experiencing and the experienced, > C, three realities - the experience-er, the experiencing and the > experienced, or, > D, none of the above? Thanks for putting the question so clearly. It helps me a lot. My first impulse is to say C. I think of this passage from p.158 of Abhidhamma in Daily Life: "The 'Discourse on the Six Senses' (Middle Length Sayings IIIm No.148) is very helpful for the understanding of realities which present themselves through the six doors. When the Buddha was staying in the Jeta grove in Anathapinkika's monastery, he explained to the monks about the six 'internal sense-fields' and the six 'external sense-fields' (in Pali: ayatana) The six 'internal sense-fields' are the six doors through which objects are experienced. The six 'external sense-fields' are the objects, experienced through the six doors. The Buddha then explained about the six classes of consciousness which arise in dependence on the six doors and about the objects experiences through the six doors." I know I am oversimplifying, but from the above it sounds like C, though the suffix "-er" suggests self/actor a bit too much, which brings us to either B or D. Yes, B looks good. The" internal sense-fields" and the "classes of consciousness" would be nama. The "external sense field" (object) would be rupa. Nama (ie citta) is that which experiences, rupa (object) is that which is experienced. For what it's worth, I go with B. Thanks Robert and Nina for your elaboration on Dan's post, and hello to Herman as well. Metta, Phil 36185 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 0:24am Subject: Re: [dsg]details of the Tiika, Larry, Htoo. Dear Nina, Larry & All, You wrote to Larry (and me), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > I start to get worried since you want to go through the Vis. three times > during your life! How can we do this then? > I shall think things over more and maybe Sarah also has ideas. .... S: I think it’s going very well now. I think Larry has a lot of experience in running ‘study corners’ and I’d be inclined to leave the pace to him. He knows when and how to check with you as need be. Don’t worry (or if you do, it’s just another dhamma to be known;-). .... >While reading the tiika I will think more. But does anyone wants to have the Pali Vis.? I need it all for my reading and it is no trouble for me. Should I post the Vis. Pali for each para? Let us say, when nobody says anything it is no. .... S: Like you said about a Middle Way in another note, why not just add key terms and phrases when you summarise or add any details in your introcuctions to keep it simple and less work for yourself? As Lodewijk always says, there’s no limit to one’s metta or other wholesome states to be developed. However, there is a limit to one’s ability and strength!! It’s a question of what one finds most useful for others at anytime as well as what is of most value for one’s own reflection and study and interest too. What you have done to date has been very helpful, but that doesn’t mean it should be continued in the same format. Again, I think K.Sujin would stress that there’s no rule but we can know the thinking, the worry, the wondering at these times of indecision and that’s the real study. Again we tend to think conventionally that we have to make a choice or decision, but such thinking is once more conditioned and merely more passing dhammas. You suggested I say more about the goal of the study of the Visuddhimagga. The goal as I see it is to appreciate more and more about how the various dhammas described in detail are rising and passing away at this very moment and that’s it. There is no one behind them, no one pulling any strings, no one guiding them and no one who can alter them in anyway. Because the idea of self is so very deep-rooted and because there isn’t any understanding of namas and rupas at all most the time, we need to hear and consider more details from more angles before understanding and confidence in the Truths can really grow. As Azita suggested, it’s not enough just to hear the basics and to get some kind of intellectual or direct appreciation of namas and rupas as this may well be forgotten for long periods when we’re distracted by other less noble inclinations . We need to go on hearing and considering and developing understanding. It’s never enough. Even the arahants continued listening to the Buddha, so who are we to think we’ve heard enough for now? At the moment we’re reading in the Visuddhimagga about all kinds of cittas from the birth citta (patisandhi citta) to the death citta (cuti citta). It may seem that sometimes the mind is racing and other times it’s silent or without any thinking, for example. Or it may even appear to have stopped, as in deep sleep. All the time there is a deep-rooted idea of ‘my’ mind. However, from our studies we learn a little more about how illusory such ideas are and how cittas always follow each other in the same rapid succession regardless of time and place. The mind (or present citta) can’t be slowed down or speeded up or stopped or changed at all. It’s conditioned to be just the way it is. Similarly, the cetasikas (the mental factors) which accompany these cittas, arise, perform their functions or ‘duties’ (‘roles?’) and fall away instantly too. No lasting anguish, no lasting concentration, no lasting wisdom, metta, generosity or any other state. As Phil said, there are always a group of cetasikas arising with any citta, but one citta with accompanying cetasikas can only ever have one object. Seeing consciousness and cetasikas can only experience visible object for example. Similarly, a citta in the javana process accompanied by sati (in satipatthana) can only have one paramattha dhamma as object -- any nama or rupa which has been ‘conditioned’ to appear as object at that very moment. This is how understanding can develop -- the object appearing can be known---, but not by any attempt at any selection of object. Nina, as you heard on the tape ‘it is not enough to learn only the terms, then we go through our whole life only knowing the names of realities’. It’s a good reminder. This is why it doesn’t matter what language we use or which terms. The goal is simply to understand what is appearing now as the object of the present citta. I’m really appreciating all the discussions about terms and words in the Cetasikas corner....reflecting and considering the meaning of just one word like ‘citta’, ‘cetasika’ or ‘function’ may be more precious or valuable than reading a dozen texts. Again it just depends on the understanding, on the present pariyatti or even patipatti at the time. You also mentioned that ‘we have to try to find different ways of expressing the Truth’ and I greatly appreciate that you and others here do this all the time. Your patience and willingness to help in this regard is really commendable and a great model for some of us. Of course, it’s always just according to our limited understanding and skill in expression and variable accumulations and wholesome inclinations for writing/speaking on dhamma too! I hope this helps a little. Metta, Sarah p.s I was going to add something ,more on the qu of hardness you were discussing with Howard. I’ll put it in another post. ====== 36186 From: Andrew Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 0:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread ( 058 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > Yes, I accept that it would be dangerous for myself to believe that I > knew what the Buddha's intentions were. > > If it appears otherwise, I would consider it an act of kindness for it > to be pointed out to me. > > Thanks and Regards > > > Herman Dear Herman I couldn't possibly be so pretentious as to lecture you in absolute terms about misinterpretations of "the Buddha's intentions" because, like you and Htoo, I also can't claim to be an infallible authority. I read and listen and reflect upon what I see and hear - and I form views about that. I can attempt to describe those views to others but must label them as "my understanding of" the Buddha's teaching - they remain merely my views and I can't put them any higher than that. They have a habit of changing, too. On a list like this, of course, it can become tiresome and cluttered to be constantly reminding others that "this is just my view" and so many of us take it for granted that the other is not claiming absolute knowledge of the matters being discussed. Of course, someone occasionally pops up who reads something and thinks it is being offered as a "hotline to the Tathagata", but that's usually not the case. We get to know where we are all coming from. For example, I have read enough of your posts to know that you consider the Abhidhamma a later corruption. For myself, I am interested in exploring the Abhidhamma so that I can make that assessment on my own from an informed perspective. I guess that means we don't have alot to discuss at the moment but that's okay ... always gotta leave something good for later! (-: Thanks and farewell Andrew T 36187 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 0:53am Subject: Theory and Practice - Eric Re: Anapanasati/ Sukin Hi Eric, I have little time again, so I will respond to just one or two points. > S> I am not sure why you admire all those other people and > philosophies; I do like what some of them have said too. However > when it comes to judging whether they have Right View, I don't think > any of them do. This means that none of them are enlightened and > therefore them "finding meaning in their lives", really means > nothing as far as I am concerned. > > Eric: As you see fit. But if you had the chance to listen > to a stream enterer, would you hesitate? Sukin: If for example Nina were to approach me and say that such and such a person was enlightened, I would definitely be very excited and would wish to meet and talk with that person. There have been claims that certain monks are/was enlightened, even to the point of being arahats. However now when I read what they have said, I have no reason to think that they were so, in fact, I consider some of them quite misguided even. So yes, in those cases where the claim comes from an unreliable source, I would surely hesitate. It would be impossible for me to determine who is in fact enlightened. On the other hand however, even if someone wasn't, but like Nina, taught Dhamma in such a way that one is constantly reminded about the reality of the present moment, then I would consider at least that that person is a "good" dhamma teacher. People may be able to enter Samadhi in an instant and experience fascinating states of mind. Some might talk with seemingly great authority about levels of consciousness and create elaborate theories about human experience and nature of reality. For me the test as to whether that person is really wise is in how much importance he gives to presently arising realities. It is after all I believe, often the case that one does *not know* present conditions, that one ends up speculating about it. And what others may think to be impressive explanations, to me is more a product of mental proliferation rooted in one wrong view or the other. The Four Noble Truths, if a teaching is consistent with this, then it would qualify as Right View, otherwise not. Which is another way of saying that only the Buddha and his followers were/can be enlightened. It seems odd that people, including monks, have meditated (in some cases on the breath) for 20, 30 or 40 years and all t?ey can talk about at the end of it, is `calm', `happiness', `peace' and so on. And when they advice anyone on `understanding' dhamma, they point to the `formal practice'. Forget about `wrong view', but do these people even know about `avijja'!! They talk about experiencing the vipassana nanas, and yet when it comes to knowing seeing, hearing, smelling and so on, they do not find it important enough to consider these. It is ignorance as in `ignoring' these very presently arising realities that causes them to cling to rites and rituals "formal meditation", and be deluded by illusory results. They are in fact encouraging ignorance though otherwise they claim to practice in order to "know". You often point to the Kalama Sutta. What I have written above will give you an idea as to how according to me, the Buddha's teachings can be verified. It is true that the level of understanding is only `intellectual' and doubt is still far from being eradicated. But is there a better way than to study the Teachings in order to get an increasingly better idea of what the Buddha meant? I am not saying that direct experience should not be taken into consideration, if the experience is indeed consistent with the Teachings, then there is no need to refer to it in retrospect in order to condition Saddha. A moment of satipatthana itself conditions all the necessary factors as sankhara. And one result I believe is not any *less* confidence in the pariyatti, but in fact *more*. Meditators like to refer to the practice when advising others, but if indeed there was genuine satipatthana, one will know at the same time that it has arisen due to causes and conditions unrelated to any intention to have it. This is I believe why some members of DSG don't like to talk about their subjective experiences ;-). What is there after all to talk about when the moments of sati are so rare and of little strength and these are not tied to any particular conventional activity!? You seem to object to `theory', but do you really believe we can get away from any theory? I think we start with some kind of conclusion, dwell on them and reinforce them all the time. And if we have had any experiences and do not check if this is consistent with the Buddha's teachings, then I believe that it becomes increasingly hard to get on the right track. Sorry for the abrupt ending, but have to rush out now. Metta, Sukin. 36188 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Merely Pondering, no 1. Dear Nina & Howard, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > > It> > >> is really difficult to know hardness as rupa, we are so used to take > it for > >> my hand, for mine, for a thing belonging to me. ..... > > -------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > I don't think of hardness as something belonging to me, not even > > conventionally speaking. ..... > N: I good point for considering, I suggested Sarah brings it up in Bgk. > Theoretically we know and understand that there is no self, but the > practice? > There is an underlying idea of self, the latent tendency of wrong view > that > is only eradicated by the sotapanna. ..... S: You added a lot more helpful detail and I also added a few comments, followed by Howard’s helpful reflections: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35126 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35448 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35453 Anyway, I raised it (as a brief qu) as you suggested with K.Sujin and I’ll add her further comments. ..... Sujin: >Even for one who studies [the Dhamma], does one have to think at the moment of touching whether or not there is a self? The Dhamma is not for telling the others what is happening, but whenever cetasikas arise, many of them at a moment, can we tell how many are there or what is there or what is the characteristic of each? Or, [can we only tell when] one appears so there can be the understanding or misunderstanding of that reality? So if wrong view does not arise, can we say ‘Oh, it’s wrong view?’. We can never say like that. >Even children who don’t have any idea about self and non-self can tell what is experienced -- whether it’s hard or soft. So it depends at that moment what cetasikas arise, whether there is no wrong view or there is wrong view. [S:and this can only be known if the characteristic of wrong view appears and awareness is aware of it]. >There may not be any wrong view or idea of self. For example, when there is atta-sa~n~naa, there is not necessarily any wrong view of self. It is a vipallasa (perversion) of sa~n~naa, but not necessaily ditthi vipallasa (perversion of view).< ***** S: In other words, there may be a distortion of perception in some regard as there is with every unwholesome citta arising, but not necessarily wrong view. Metta, Sarah p.s Howard, from Dispeller (transl of Sammohavinodani, PTS), Classification of the Truths, 432: “...And the Truth of Suffering is like a disease, the Truth of Origin is like the cause of the disease, the Tuth of Cessation is like the cure of the disease and the Truth of the path is like the medicine.” Thank your for your further comments and reflections on namas and rupas in our thread with Agrios. Others are discussing this further with you, so I’ll take a back-seat this time;-). Nina, looking forward to the rest of your other series and especially the teeth! Apologies for jumping in a little soon. ======= 36189 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 1:25am Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner6-Introduction(c) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Introduction [contd] ***** The reader may wonder what the use is of knowing the detaiIs about citta and cetasikas. Citta and cetasikas are not abstract categories, they are active at this very moment. We could not see, hear, think, act, be angry or have attachment without cetasikas. Seeing, for example, is a citta. It is the citta which cognizes colour or visible object. In order to perform its function it needs the assistance of cetasikas, such as contact, which contacts visible object, or one-pointedness, which focuses on the object. It is important to have more understanding of cetasikas. We should know that defilements are cetasikas and that good qualities are cetasikas. They arise in daily life and when they appear we should investigate their characteristics. Otherwise we would not know what is right and what is wrong. We would not know when defilements arise and how deeply rooted they are. If the Buddha had not taught in detail about defilements we would only have a vague idea about them. How could we see the danger of defilements when they are unknown to us? How could we develop what is wholesome if we would not know the characteristics of wholesome cetasikas and the different ways of good deeds? There is a great variety of cetasikas accompanying the different cittas. Akusala cittas are accompanied by cetasikas which are defilements, whereas kusala cittas are accompanied by cetasikas which are good qualities. Apart from defilements and good qualities there are also cetasikas which accompany cittas which are unwholesome, cittas which are wholesome and cittas which are neither wholesome nor unwholesome. ***** [Introduction to be continued] Metta, Sarah ====== 36190 From: Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 10:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi, Ken (and Herman) - In a message dated 9/9/04 2:18:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Herman and Howard, > > Thanks for your analysis of "citta experiences an object." Herman > concluded: > ------------------ > > >The sentence "citta experiences an object", taking the rules of > language into account, should be taken as being a substantialist > representation of an event. > > > ----------------- > > Yes, I'm happy with that. I think it is consistent with the > Abhidhamma. Citta, having mental substance, performs the function of > experiencing an object. That object, if it is rupa, will have > material substance; if it is a nama, will have mental substance; > and, if it is a concept, will have no substance at all. > > Howard, I think you agree with Herman too: > ------------------------ > Howard: > On the basis of our language use, it says there is > some thing, citta, some thing, the object, and a relation holding > between them. The citta is an experiencer, the object the > experienced, and the experiencing the relation, > ---------------------- > > That was my interpretation also, although, I called > the 'experiencing' the `function of citta.' > > Now, where is the problem? Why am I happy with this while you, both, > are not? Is it the word substantialist? I have no problem with > substantialism unless it says that concepts are substantial – which > they are not, of course. > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is not only concepts the Buddha states are insubstantial. All dhammas are said to hollow and void. There are the following two paragraphs from The Snake, in the Sutta Nipata: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > He who does not find core or substance > in any of the realms of being, > like flowers which are vainly sought > in fig trees that bear none, > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. > > > He who neither goes too far nor lags behind > and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Finally, also addressing paramattha dhammas, there are the following magnificent verses from the Phena Sutta (The Foam Sutta): >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Form is like a glob of foam; > feeling, a bubble; > perception, a mirage; > fabrications, a banana tree; > consciousness, a magic trick -- >    this has been taught >    by the Kinsman of the Sun. > However you observe them, > appropriately examine them, > they're empty, void >    to whoever sees them >    appropriately. Beginning with the body > as taught by the One > with profound discernment: > when abandoned by three things >    -- life, warmth, & consciousness -- > form is rejected, cast aside. > When bereft of these > it lies thrown away, >    senseless, >    a meal for others. > That's the way it goes: > it's a magic trick, > an idiot's babbling. > It's said to be >    a murderer. > No substance here > is found. Thus a monk, persistence aroused, > should view the aggregates > by day & by night, >    mindful, >    alert; > should discard all fetters; > should make himself >    his own refuge; > should live as if > his head were on fire -- >    in hopes of the state >    with no falling away. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Nama is mentality - it has mental substance - and rupa is > materiality - it has material substance. The material substance of > rupa is not the materiality known to conventional science. > > Conventional science hasn't come up with a definition of mentality > yet, so there's no clash there. :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ================================= With heartfelt (but quite insubstantial ;-) metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36191 From: Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 10:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Merely Pondering, no 1. Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/9/04 4:17:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > p.s Howard, from Dispeller (transl of Sammohavinodani, PTS), > Classification of the Truths, 432: > > “...And the Truth of Suffering is like a disease, the Truth of Origin is > like the cause of the disease, the Tuth of Cessation is like the cure of > the disease and the Truth of the path is like the medicine.â€? > ========================== Ahh! Thank you!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36192 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vipassana-meditation, jhana's and the not-sensual citta's Dear Joop, I meant to add a note or two to your post on this topic before: --- jwromeijn wrote: > A question that will not be new in this DSG, but I have not found it > in the "useful posts from the archives" <...> > As far as I have understood, it's not necessary to reach a jhana for > getting liberated, getting the 16 nana's, step by step, is even > better. > Because in the sutta's the jhana's are mentioned so many times, I > have tried to read more about the relation vipassana- samatha's. ..... S: Try for a start: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Scroll down to: -Jhana & Nibbana -Jhana -Two Meanings -Samatha -Samatha & vipassana bhavana -Susima Sutta -Yuganaddha Sutta (In Tandem sutta), AN 1V.170 Then let me know if you’d like more;-) ***** J: > There are two groups of scolars writing on the two main types of > Buddhist meditation: one group that considers insight (vipassana) to > be essential and tranquility to be inessential in the pursuit of > nibbana; and a second group that views both samatha and vipassana to > be essential. In the second group there are some who say: after > having reached first jhana you can decide how to continue: with > second jhana or with vipassana. ... S: tranquillity accompanies all wholesome states. Regardless of whether or not samatha development or the attainment of jhanas are a pre-requisite of not for the development of vipassana, there is no you or me or anyone else who can ‘decide how to continue’ at any stage. Just like now, it depends on whether there is any understanding and what kind of understanding that is which arises, accompanied by what other factors and what kind of object is understood and in what way. It’s helpful to reflect on all kinds of wholesome states and to clearly understand unwholesome states for what they are. Trying to set an order for what arises or trying to direct the show at anytime is unhelpful imho. (I may have misunderstood the point;-)). .... J: > In his essay "VIPASSANA & JHANA: What The Masters Say" Ven. > Visuddhacara writes: "<.....>Yogis can switch to Vipassana after attaining a moderate > level of concentration which is sufficient to overcome The Five > Hindrances. ......” ..... S: I find this kind of statement to be particularly misleading. If there is no beginning of vipassana now, how will the conditions be laid for any vipassana later? Who can switch? .... J:> Even if I was convinced (first) jhana is necessary, I don't know a > teacher because I don't want to do it on my own and I don't want to > go to a course of Tibetan meditation because I don't want anything > tantric. So I don't do it. Good to mention that we also do metta- and > karuna-meditation, as I understand that are a kind of samatha, but > not for reaching absorption. .... S: Yes, metta and karuna can be developed naturally in daily life when we have so many opportunities. If there isn’t any development of metta now, it can never be an object of samatha development. The same applies to wise reflection on the Buddha’s qualities, the Dhamma, generosity, death or other ‘suitable’ daily life objects. As soon as there is a’ trying’ to follow a jhana practice or effort to reach absorption, it is bound to be out of attachment, not the development of tranquillity with detachment as I see it. .... J: > My questions in fact are: > Because (higher) jhana's are not relevant to me to practice, is it > correct that they are also not relevant in a intellectual way? > Questioned in another way: why should the non-sensual citta's > (rupavacara, arupavacara, lokuttara) in the Abhidhamma interest me? .... S: Quite frankly, they don’t interest me very much at all, unless I read something which seems erroneous and likely to lead to a misperception and I think further discussion might be helpful. .... J: > And is it correct that the "Planes of Existence" that correspond to > that non-sensual citta's are also not relevant to me? I even don't > have the wish to be reborn in that "higher" planes (numbers 12 and > higher to say it quasi-exact). .... S: Academic interest only as far as I’m concerned or just to have less doubt when we read about them in the texts. ..... J: > Sometimes I think I don't have the fetters (samyojana's) nr 6 and 7: > rupa-raga and arupa-raga, but I think I still have nrs 2-5 and are > working to release the first one; is that possible? .... S: We have no idea what subtle latent tendencies may be accumulated I think.... If such fetters haven’t arisen (for obvious reasons) in this life, it doesn’t mean they’ve been eradicated. No 1 is sakkaya-ditthi I believe. Of course it will only be the very highly developed panna which will eradicate it at stage of sotapanna. Again not a self that can work on it;-). .... J: > I realize I don't put my questions in a very careful (Asian) way but > they are sincere and come from a great respect of the Dhamma .... S: I like your Qus very much indeed and they come across as very sincere. You obviously have a lot of respect and confidence in the Dhamma and I enjoy all your contributions a lot. I liked your discussion with Christine and others too. I don’t think there is any difference between Asian and non-Asian right and wrong view or doubt or questions arising. The Dhamma is for all;-). Metta, Sarah p.s We had some long discussions on Karunadasa’s articles before. I think we mostly agreed his article on ‘Time’ was good, but reservations on ‘Space’. Yes, just ‘now’ as you say. (See ‘Time’, ‘Momentariness’, ‘Space’ in U.P.) Looking f/w to the pic! ====================================================== 36193 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 2:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner6-Introduction(c) Hello all >We could not see, hear, think, act, be >angry or have attachment without cetasikas 1 -What if we *were* without cetasikas - just what would be going on? Bhavangas endlessly? Could the mind operate? Would it advert to an impinging rupa, reach sense-consciousness, and then proceed no further without cetasikas to assist it and therefore fall back into bhavangas? Maybe knowing to what extent the mind could operate without cetasikas can help us understand them better. Metta, Phil 36194 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 2:52am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 058 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > So far, we have discussed on 54 kamavacara cittas and 15 rupavacara > cittas. It is useful to repeat these cittas so that these become > familiar with and they are well understood. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear All, From this Dhamma Thread, what I have noticed is that only the moderator and owner Sarah takes an interest and does replies. Other who did not reply may also have a good mind. But in this message, I just replied my own message. And there followed 4 reply messages. All of which do not contain any dhamma content. Instead, what I found is full of doubt, full of aversion, full of restlessness, and full of ignorance. Whether we are discussing or not, whether you read them or not, whether you learn at your own speed in other literature or not, dhamma is dhamma. No one can overcome five niyamas. Whether you believe that there is no life after death or there are still many lives after death, dhamma will be going on its own speed. no one can influence. Even The Buddha could not. If you die soon and without achieving anything in this life, that is your choice. Today everywhere most that are encountered are not good ones. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36195 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 2:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 98, short explanation. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > The word clear is just used with reference to a process with > tadarammanacitta, and these pertain only to kaamaavacara cittas. It is > merely a way of denoting the difference between a process that runs its full > course and one that does not. There is not more to it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks. It makes sense. Htoo Naing 36196 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Lacking in Self-Esteem? Good for You!" (was: Profit of) Hi Herman, Glad your ski trip was goooooooooood and glad you’re still around. Now I look at this thread again, I think Phil kindly responded on most the points. I’ll just add a little more. --- Egbert wrote: > H: I'm sorry, Sarah, I wasn't very explicit or clear. By a frail ego > I mean a person who feels they have no control in their day to day > life. > > Perhaps the above clarification would suffice, but while I'm at it, > I might explain a bit more. A person who feels a lack of control in > their life will inevitably feel they are acting against their will. > Such a person ends up seriously depressed, possibly suicidal, > possibly prematurely dead. ..... S: We can of course help someone who is close to us and who is depressed to take steps to get their life in better order on a conventional level if we’re able. This might be by helping them to see a doctor, change a job, a relationship or whatever we feel is useful at the time. If that person is a very rare individual who can also appreciate that in truth the feelings and thoughts and depression and other experiences are conditioned dhammas, unsatisfactory, impermanent and anatta, then encouraging any glimmers of right understanding can never hurt. Of course, if the snake is handled the wrong way it will be dangerous -- it is for us all. I do agree that we need to therefore be careful what we say and how we help. It can be particularly difficult just in print, but in some ways, I think there are some advantages too in this medium, fo me at least. Anyway, we just do our best in sharing the Dhamma. That’s all. I appreciate your reminders and concern. ..... > H : I may be quite mistaken, but I do not think that the truth of > anatta was ever taught to lay folk intent on remaining lay folk. > With very good reason. ... S: No closed fist -- it was taught for the benefit of anyone who could appreciate it, including lay folk without any idea of ordaining. ... > H : The suttas may well be likened to a doctor's notes, each sutta > being specific to a situation. But due to such black arts as > writing, commentaries and education for the masses :-) worldlings > have access to more material than is suitable for them to hear. And > so the contemporary worldling gets to choose which diagnosis and > remedy they will apply to themself. This has extremely detrimental > consequences for the self-diagnosing patient. Especially so for the > one who applies the doctor's statements, on anatta, to fully > renouncing monks, to themself and ends up with a neurotic > resignation citing conditionality. .... S: ‘The detrimental consequences’ follow the wrong views, not the teaching of anatta as I see it. We’re here to help each other recognise such wrong views and hopefully to see them gradually eliminated as a result of wise reflection and direct understanding. An idea that one should live in physical seclusion or would have better support for one’s practice of the Dhamma automatically if one were ordained would be examples of such views as I see it. One forgets about the results of kamma and other conditions all the time, thinking one’s life really can be arranged by changing the ‘trappings’ of the Dhamma rather than understanding the dhammas arising at the present moment. Herman, I do appreciate your well-considered reflections on this sensitive subject matter. I’m not an expert at all. Quite the contrary. I’m glad to reflect more on it. Metta, Sarah p.s. Abhidhamma at the First Council. In U.P. many posts on this under ‘Abhid - history’. If one had no intention to deceive, there is no lie. For example, I might say in good faith to Jon, ‘It’s stopped raining’. We go down in the lift, step outside and find we have to go back for umbrellas. No lie. Lots in the commentaries re Abh Pitaka at First Council, eg comy to the Vinaya, to the Dhammasangani and I believe to the DN, though I’ve not read the latter as it’s not in English. Also in Mahavamsa. Naturally anything about the Councils can only be found in the commentaries based on those brought to Sri Lanka by the great arahant Mahinda originally. Are these all lies?;-) When I look at modern writings which don’t accept the Abhidhamma, usually they seem to accept and quote as ‘fact’ those parts of the commentaries which accord with their views, but not otherwise. That’s OK too. Anyone can believe anything -- I don’t mind at all! (Well, hardly at all;-)) ====================================== 36197 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 3:05am Subject: Fabric softener Phil, just a quick note - I have several of your super letters in front of me to add points on, but am out of time.....(also on Htoo's and one or two others). Anway, greatly appreciate the obvious fabric softener effects in the rough and tumble wash cycles which come out in all your kind posts. Like AndrewT, I'm not so sure about some of the methodology, but I certainly appreciate the results here;-) More later I hope.... Metta, Sarah ====== 36198 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 3:45am Subject: Theory and Practice _Sukin & Htoo Sukin: If such and such a person was enlightened, I would definitely be very excited and would wish to meet and talk with that person. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Once I heard that a monk had jhana power. He went alm round in the rainy season while raining without ever being wet. It was said that many people saw the monk flying in the sky. Even some people saw quite close and they were all amazed that when they remember to make a record like photography, the monk had been too far away. When I appraoched that monk, I found nothing unusual. But he was well calm and I did not find any smile or any mental disturbance. And there had been a lot of miracles regarding this monk. As usual, people started to flock and tried to go there with a view to achieve any wealth-increasing power from that monk. This is just a matter of jhana. The monk was any way being proved to be a non-arahat. I met a monk who was strongly believed to be an arahat. He was also extremely calm. Whenever he had a chance to talk, what he would preach was 'to stay in the present'. That is when we move, we must know that we move. When hear, just hear, when see just see, when look just note want to look and then look at, and note all the present. I also met several monks claimed to be arahats. But instead of reeping method to transcend, people approached in different intensions like to be wealthy, to be healthy and to be associated with loved ones and so on. Even though I did not know whether they were ariyas or arahats, they were well calm and free of anything that you would accuse them of. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: There have been claims that certain monks are/was enlightened, even to the point of being arahats. However now when I read what they have said, I have no reason to think that they were so, in fact, I consider some of them quite misguided even. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know other monks but what I talked above were in Myanmar and some passed away long time ago. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So yes, in those cases where the claim comes from an unreliable source, I would surely hesitate. It would be impossible for me to determine who is in fact enlightened. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sukin, it is not confine to anyone who are not arahats. Only arahats will know arahats. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: On the other hand however, even if someone wasn't, but like Nina, taught Dhamma in such a way that one is constantly reminded about the reality of the present moment, then I would consider at least that that person is a "good" dhamma teacher. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: One monk that I mentioned above taught 'constant mindfulness on realities'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: People may be able to enter Samadhi in an instant and experience fascinating states of mind. Some might talk with seemingly great authority about levels of consciousness and create elaborate theories about human experience and nature of reality. For me the test as to whether that person is really wise is in how much importance he gives to presently arising realities. It is after all I believe, often the case that one does *not know* present conditions, that one ends up speculating about it. And what others may think to be impressive explanations, to me is more a product of mental proliferation rooted in one wrong view or the other. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. It is brilliant. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The Four Noble Truths, if a teaching is consistent with this, then it would qualify as Right View, otherwise not. Which is another way of saying that only the Buddha and his followers were/can be enlightened. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Other beings who are not Buddhas and followers of The Buddhas and become enlightened are paccekabuddhas. Otherwise, no one can be enlightened. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin:It seems odd that people, including monks, have meditated (in some cases on the breath) for 20, 30 or 40 years and all they can talk about at the end of it, is `calm', `happiness', `peace' and so on. And when they advice anyone on `understanding' dhamma, they point to the `formal practice'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Partly agree. But there are some who really urge to practise mahasatipatthana of attending realities. But as you said there are some who constantly encouraging to do meditation because it makes calm, happiness, and peace. That is in the very formal way like going to a quiet place and sit in cross-legged. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Forget about `wrong view', but do these people even know about `avijja'!! They talk about experiencing the vipassana nanas, and yet when it comes to knowing seeing, hearing, smelling and so on, they do not find it important enough to consider these. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The right view starts with understanding of avijja. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: It is ignorance as in `ignoring' these very presently arising realities that causes them to cling to rites and rituals "formal meditation", and be deluded by illusory results. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is the site where there is obstruction and deters the progress. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: They are in fact encouraging ignorance though otherwise they claim to practice in order to "know". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: How do you suggest here, Sukin? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: You often point to the Kalama Sutta. What I have written above will give you an idea as to how according to me, the Buddha's teachings can be verified. It is true that the level of understanding is only `intellectual' and doubt is still far from being eradicated. But is there a better way than to study the Teachings in order to get an increasingly better idea of what the Buddha meant? I am not saying that direct experience should not be taken into consideration, if the experience is indeed consistent with the Teachings, then there is no need to refer to it in retrospect in order to condition Saddha. A moment of satipatthana itself conditions all the necessary factors as sankhara. And one result I believe is not any *less* confidence in the pariyatti, but in fact *more*. Meditators like to refer to the practice when advising others, but if indeed there was genuine satipatthana, one will know at the same time that it has arisen due to causes and conditions unrelated to any intention to have it. This is I believe why some members of DSG don't like to talk about their subjective experiences ;-). What is there after all to talk about when the moments of sati are so rare and of little strength and these are not tied to any particular conventional activity!? You seem to object to `theory', but do you really believe we can get away from any theory? I think we start with some kind of conclusion, dwell on them and reinforce them all the time. And if we have had any experiences and do not check if this is consistent with the Buddha's teachings, then I believe that it becomes increasingly hard to get on the right track. Sorry for the abrupt ending, but have to rush out now. Metta, Sukin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This post was originally from Sukin to Eric. But as I have not long communicated with Sukin, and as this message is very interesting and valuable I just butt in. If there is any inconvenience, please forgive me. With Metta, Htoo Naing 36199 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 3:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner6-Introduction(c) Phil: Hello all 1 -What if we *were* without cetasikas - just what would be going on? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There is no citta that is not accompanied by cetasikas. And there is no cetasika that exists without a citta. Cetasika are mental factors that always arise with a citta, that always take the same object that is taken by the citta, and that always base the same base as the citta does, and that always perish with disappearance of the citta. Cittas are learnt as they have different characters. These differences in characters are due to the accompanying cetasikas. As cetasikas have their own characteristics, they are studied as realities. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: Bhavangas endlessly? Could the mind operate? Would it advert to an impinging rupa, reach sense-consciousness, and then proceed no further without cetasikas to assist it and therefore fall back into bhavangas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. Not at all. Have explained above. There is no citta that does not have any cetasika. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: Maybe knowing to what extent the mind could operate without cetasikas can help us understand them better. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not think so. Study cittas first, as I am doing in the current Dhamma Thread. Then move again to cetasikas so that we can study what cittas have what cetasikas. With Metta, Htoo Naing 36200 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 4:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fabric softener Hi Sarah > Phil, > > just a quick note - I have several of your super letters in front of me to > add points on, but am out of time.....(also on Htoo's and one or two > others). > > Anway, greatly appreciate the obvious fabric softener effects in the rough > and tumble wash cycles which come out in all your kind posts. Thanks! Of course there is conceit and the desire to make myself like mixed in as well - the thing that led James quite rightly to compare me to a friendly labrador that is constantly seeking approval. Don't say that to be self-deprecating. Just aware that there are always so many cittas arising to motivate us to post, some of them truly kusala, many/most of them not. In my case definitely most. > Like AndrewT, I'm not so sure about some of the methodology, but I > certainly appreciate the results here;-) Ph :I'll take this opportunity to say hi to Andrew T as well. I want to respond in that thread because the topic interests me a lot, but no time tonight. Sarah, if you were planning to respond in that thread, perhaps you could wait until I clarify what I'm getting at. Thanks! Metta, Phil 36201 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 4:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner6-Introduction(c) HI Htoo > Phil: Hello all > 1 -What if we *were* without cetasikas - just what would be going on? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: There is no citta that is not accompanied by cetasikas. And > there is no cetasika that exists without a citta. Thanks Htoo. I know it was a silly question but at least it drove home for me in a way I'll never forget that citta cannot be unaccompanied by cetasika. Rob M is a skilled engineer - perhaps he'll figure out a way to separate cetasika from citta and replace asobbhana ones with sobbhana ones. Cetasika transplants for the kusala-challenged! Just joking! Metta, Phil 36202 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 4:35am Subject: Jhana Journey ( 16 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The jhana practitioner becomes an expert in the second jhana as he practise jhanic exercises of contemplating, reaching, determining, emerging, and scrutinising. After a long practice, he starts to notice that vicara ( sustained application ) looks like an enemy to his present jhana. Because vicara is nearly the same as vitakka in terms of attraction back to kama things. And he realises that vicara is the weakest link in his 2nd jhana jhanic factors. He then sees vicara as a blameable dhamma and he starts to try to drive out vicara and again he tries more and more than ever and reproaches again to patibaga nimitta( counter image ) of WHITE. He is trying very very hard and he contemplates on parts of his jhana. Ekaggata is good, sukha is good and piti is also good. Good here means as compared to vicara. But vicara is not good as it may bring him down to the first jhana and may even draw him back to kama citta and his jhana might be lost. With the very long practice on jhana, after passing away of indefinite bhavanga, manodvara-avajjana citta arises and then a series of mahakusala cittas arise. They are parikamma (preparatory mind ), upacara ( proximate mind of jhana ), anuloma ( balancing- negotiating mind ) and gotrabhu ( leaving mind or lineage-changing mind ). After gotrabhu citta, the third jhana arises once without vicara. Then bhavanga cittas follow indefinitely. Now he has achieved third jhana. He must practice all jhana exercises including avajjana ( contemplating ), samapajjana (reaching ),adhitthana ( determinating ), votthana ( terminating or emerging ) and paccavakkhana ( investigating or scrutinising ) exercises. If he exercises well he will soon become expert in third jhana. May you all attain third jhana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36203 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 5:06am Subject: CSC4-Introduction(a) [Howard: "No, no!"] Thanks for your words of comfort, Howard. You have a good heart. In this case, though, you missed my point. To wit: Dan: > > I'm with you. But in my ignorance, I still struggle with the > > personification language and cringe when I hear it. I so dearly > > crave 'pure' language that is not wrapped in personifications that > > aversion tends to arise when 'impure' language is used to discuss > > something that I think should be clean of personification (viz., > > citta and cetasika). The cringing is evidence of lack of > > understanding: moha -> cringing. > > > Howard: > I don't think that is ignorance on your part, Dan. I agree with you > about the personifications - I think they are actually dangerous, playing right > into the hands of atta view. This is why, for example, I am uneasy with the > language that make cittas seem to be, as I put it, "little, knowing selves," and > as "agents of a sort" Mind with wisdom does not cringe, and mind that craves pure language is surely ignorant. [Ref: 1. dependent origination, 2. ignorance is root of all akusala]. I agree that the personifications can indeed play right into the hands of atta view, but must they? I think not, unless ignorance drives them that way. ------------------------- Dan: > > Well, to hell with what "I" think! Away, thou blasted rigidity that > > cringes! Walk onward to understanding, to liberation from craving and > > cringing and rigidity! > > > Howard: > No, no! I believe you are thinking quite properly. My point was only > that the personifications are avoidable. They should, in fact, be avoided I > think, or, if used, they should always be accompanied by disclaimers. I don't think hard and fast rules about what kind of language to use are helpful in breaking down our clinging fast to our conceptual frameworks. Buddha himself used lots of metaphorical language and personifications -- without always accompanying them by disclaimers. The task is to find language that clarifies the intended meaning. For me, the personifications don't work well at this time because my ignorance is of the type that conditions cringing at certain kinds of metaphorical language. So, "to hell with what 'I' think!" This only means that I see how the metaphors *could* reinforce sakayaditthi, I then crave purer language cringe because the pure language is not to be found. The problem? Clinging to entirely reasonable thinking (viz. "Metaphorical language is capable of reinforcing ditthi") reinforces ditthi -- emphatically! Why emphatic? Because the thinking is correct. When I say, "To hell with...," I mean the opposite of "cling to" even if (especially if) the thinking is correct. Metta, Dan 36204 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 5:14am Subject: CSS4-Introduction(a) [Howard: "...no object of experience." Dear Howard, A question for you: Dan: 'Citta' is simply the experiencing or cognizing of an object. Howard: Yes! And without a subject of the experience, there is no object of the experience. --> Are you sure? If so, what do you mean by "subject"? Howard: the use of 'citta' to denote a subjective, knowing agent is dangerous, IMO. --> Yes, it certainly is, as is the adoption of any language scheme. But is it even more dangerous that the danger of clinging to the notion of a perfect language or conceptual formulation for something as deep as 'citta' and 'cetasika'? And cringing when that conceptual formulation is imperfect? More metta, Dan 36205 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 5:40am Subject: CSC 4-Introduction(a) [Ken H: "none of the above"] Dear Ken H, Welcome aboard the thread! Always nice to see you paddling around... I like your quiz: Ken H: > When we say, `Citta experiences an object,' are we talking about: > A, a single reality - an event, > B, two realities - the experiencing and the experienced, > C, three realities - the experience-er, the experiencing and the experienced, or, > D, none of the above? Certainly D is the best answer because no language is going to perfectly describe the experience. Now, the question becomes more along the lines of the following: Which formulation best induces an understanding of anatta, anicca, and dukkha in the listener? For me, with my current moha specialty, B works best. The commentators delineate three formulations, including B and C from above and one other. [BB's CMA, p. 27] "The commentators define 'citta' in three ways: as agent, as instrument, and as activity. As the agent, citta is that which cognizes and object (aaramma.na.m cintetii ti citta.m). As the instrument, citta is that by means of which the accompanying mental factors cognize the object (etena cintentii ti citta.m). As an activity, citta is itself nothing other than the process of cognizing the object (cintanamatta.m citta.m)." BB likes the third the best (answer B): "The third definition, in terms of sheer activity, is regarded as the most adequate of the three: that is, citta is fundamentally an activity or process of cognizing or knowing an object. It is not an agent or instrument possessing actual bein in itself apart from the activity of cognizing." Of course, the other two definitions have useful role as well. In BB's words (p. 27 again): "The definitions in terms of agent and instrument are proposed to refute the wrong view of those who hold that a permanent self or ego is the agent and instrument of cognition." Metta, Dan 36206 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 5:49am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 059 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, When the 5th jhana arises, it is said to be in the 5th rupa jhana. The 5th rupa jhana have ekaggata as jhana factor and it is accompanied by upekkha vedana. All higher jhanas that is all arupa jhanas are in upekkha vedana and the only jhana factor is ekaggata. So all arupa jhanas are counted as 5th jhana cittas as they have the same jhana factor as with 5th rupa jhana. Here, I am not going to discuss about abhinna, which bases on 5th rupa jhana. But to understand arupa jhanas, kasina kammatthanas have to be explained to some extent so that there have to be a clear picture of what arupa jhana and what are arupa jhana cittas and their objects. There are 10 kasina objects. As long as we are not arahats, we will be doing akusala or kusala. When we are doing kusala or wholesome actions, this may be dana kusala or offering. Or this may be sila kusala or observing moral conduct. or this may be bhavana kusala or mental cultivation of good mind. Bhavana may be samatha bhavana or vipassana bhavana. Vipassana bhavana is mahasatipatthana. There are 40 samatha bhavana kammatthanas. Samatha means samadhi that dries up kilesa and makes stillness and calm. Kammatthana is made up of 'kamma' and 'thana'. Kamma here means 'bhavana kusala kamma' and thana means place. Kammatthana means 'the place where bhavana kusala citta dwell. There are 40 samatha kammatthana. They are 10 kasina kammatthana, 10 asubha kammatthana, 10 anussati kammatthana, 4 brahmavihara kammatthana, 4 aruppa kammatthanas, 1 aharepatikulasanna and 1 catudhatuvavatthana. To develop arupa jhana, the practitioner must have 5th rupa jhana. Not every samatha kammatthana has the power to give rise to 5th rupa jhana. Among them 10 kasina kammatthana can give rise to all rupa jhanas that is from the 1st to 5th rupa jhana. Kasina means 'wholeness'. There are 10 kasina kammatthana. 1. pathavi kasina ( earth-substance ) 2. tejo kasina ( fire-flame ) 3. vayo kasina ( wind-movement ) 4. apo kasina ( water-substance ) 5. nila kasina ( dark-coloured object like brown ) 6. pita kasina ( golden-yellow ) 7. lohita kasina ( red ) 8. odata kasina ( white ) 9. aloka kasina ( light ) 10.akasa kasina ( bounded space ) As an example, let us take red-kasina. As initiation, the object has to be a circular object with red colour. When this colour is totally embedded in the mind, that is the real visual object appears exactly in the mind without looking at it, this is called uggaha nimitta. When the practitioner see the red, it is a reality. But when uggaha nimitta arises, it is pannatta. The idea arises in the mind. This uggaha nimitta or mental image once changes into another nimitta called patibhaga nimitta or counter image. This image is much much more beautiful than uggaha nimitta. This again is panatta. It is not reality. Patibhaga nimitta is not a rupaarammana. It never exists as a reality. But it is just a pannatta. The 1st jhana looks at this patigha nimitta as its sole object. So the object of 1st jhana citta with this lohita kasina or red-kasina is pannatta. This happens in all other higher rupa jhana. So the 5th rupa jhana has pannatta as its object. Even though rupa jhanas dry out all kilesa, actually they cannot eradicate them at all. This is momentary elimination of kilesa and called vikkhambana pahana. As long as in jhana, there is no lobha, no dosa, no moha. So jhanas are free of kilesa. But they cannot eradicate anusaya kilesa. As with lohita kasina, all other kasinas take pannatta as their object when in appana jhanas. Likewise, 10 asubha kammatthanas take the object pannatta. Dead bodies are not realities. They are just mental re-construction of ideas. Asubha kammatthana can give rise to the 1st rupa jhana. Anapanassati anussati kammatthana can give rise to all 5 rupa jhanas. But kayagatasati anussati kammatthana can give rise to only 1st rupa jhana. Other 8 anussati kammatthana give only upacara samadhi and they never give rise to appana samadhi. That is they never give rise to jhana. But they can clear away kilesa momentarily. Here all 10 anussati kammatthana take panatta as their object. They never take paramattha dhamma as their object. Metta, karuna, and mudita kammatthana can give rise to up to 4th rupa jhana. After that if the practitioner wants further jhana, he has to practise upekkha brahmavihara kammatthana, which will give rise to 5th rupa jhana. All 4 brahmavihara kamatthana take pannatta as their object. This pannatta is satta pannatta. That is the idea of beings, which is not a paramattha dhamma. All rupa jhanas take panatta as their object and they cannot take paramattha dhamma as their object. Here I just say all rupa jhanas. As all 5 rupa jhana kusala cittas take panatta as their object, all 5 rupavacara rupavipaka cittas take panatta as their object. Like rupakusala cittas, all rupakiriya cittas take panatta as their object. Before going up to arupa jhana, we will study again the first jhana with lohita kasina or red-kasina. Kasina means 'the whole' or 'wholeness'. Initially the practitioner has to look at the red-circle kasina object. His mind mas to be embedded through out the surface of the whole circle and not at a single point but as a whole. This wholeness is called kasina. The wholeness appears in his mind when it matures. This image called uggaha nimitta is almost the same as parikamma nimitta which is the initial object. But the difference is that uggaha nimitta can be seen by mind with closed eyes. At a time, there arise patibhaga nimitta which is counter image. That is some similarity with uggaha nimitta but much much more beautiful and free of any dirt, creeze, wrinkles, staining, blotches, spots and it is brilliant and it glows. When this red surface of patibhaga nimitta arises, there are no hindrances and vitakka put the practitioner's mind on that patibhaga nimitta, and vicara makes the mind just wandering over and over on patibhaga nimitta. Piti make the practitioner fresh, alert, affectionate and like the object patibhaga nimitta. Sukha makes him well calm and free of any worry, restlessness. Ekaggata makes him still. When these 5 jhana factors are apparently working in their fullest power and practitioners is free of hindrances like sensuous thoughts like thinking on kama matters like wanting to see that he like, wanting to hear what he like, wanting to smell what he like, wanting to eat or taste what he like, wanting to feel or touch what he like, and enjoying thinking what he like. Inappropriate thought on jhana may actually makes akusala and this likeness makes arising of lobha mula citta such as 'somanassa sahagatam ditthi gata vippayuttam asankharika citta'. This lobha citta has ekaggata. The practitioner has ekaggata. This lobha citta has piti or joy. The practitioner thinks this piti as jhana factor which is wrong. All lobha-rooted thinking must be cleared away. When 5 jhana factors are working to their fullest capacities, there are no ill will like wanting to attack, revenge, fight etc etc. His mind will be concentrated on patibhaga nimitta and not on any other object and he will be free of uddhacca or spreading mind like thinking on a thing then move to another thing and then move other things very quickly and does not stay still. If 5 jhana factors are working, there will be no repent. He will be active and alert and free of laziness, sloth and torpor that is thina-middha nivarana. He will have a good trust in the current practice and he is free of vicikiccha nivarana. As this happen, his mind is still and calm. At a indefinite time, all his mental faculties that is his citta, associated cetasikas including jhana factors take the jhana object that is patibhaga nimitta very close. It is so close that there is no space between object and the object taker and it seems that they are fused and merged each other and there is just a singleness. This state cannot be interrupted. When this absorptive state arises, then this can be called as the 1st jhana. Through 5 exercises that is contemplating exercising on 1st jhana, reaching exercise, determining-prescribing time on jhana, emerging- exiting exercise, and scrutinising exercise on the 1st jhana, the practitioner will see the weakness in jhana factors. First he will notice that vitakka is the weakest. Through exercise and continuing practice, without vitakka 2nd jhana arise, without vicara 3rd jhana arise, without piti 4th jhana arise, and without sukha the 5th rupa jhana arise with upekkha vedana. All these 5 rupa jhana take the object patibhaga nimitta as their object, which is panatta. This object is not a paramattha dhamma. This object is not a reality. It is not an ultimate truth. When he attain the 5th rupa jhana, he has to practise it to be proficient. At a time, he has to expand his patibhaga nimitta to fill up the whole universe. There is nothing but red. He will only see red and nothing more than that. He just knows the red. And this redness is endless and limitless. There is boundless redness or lohita patibhaga nimitta. The whole universe is free of things and there is only red or lohita patibhaga nimitta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36207 From: agriosinski Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 5:55am Subject: object in the reality of arising sounds Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: [...] > > So there are objects before they've been experienced? > N: Good Q. for thinking over. An object is known, otherwise it would not be > an object. A ruupa such as sound has to arise just a tiny fraction of time > before it can be known by citta, because rupa at its arising moment is weak. > It disturbs the bhavangacitta and then the process of cittas that know it > can begin. Thank you very much for your explanations. You helped me a lot. metta, Agrios 36208 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 6:00am Subject: CSC4-Introduction(a) [Herman: "rules of language"] Dear Herman, Excellent points you make about the structure of language. I agree that the sentence "Citta experiences an object" has a subject and is strongly *suggestive* of a substantialist representation. My beef with this formulation is that the language structure lends strength to that suggestion. However, don't you think metaphor can still be useful for elucidating elusive ideas? The citta-as-agent metaphor can be useful in the dissolution of the notion of an eternal, abiding Self. So, it needn't be read as incorrigibly "substantialist." Even if citta-as-agent is interpreted literally as a little Self, it attenuates the tendency to the Big Self interpretation of experiences happening to 'me'. This Little Self is not lasting (anicca) and thus does not have the characteristics of the "Self" that constitutes the sakayaditthi, i.u., the 'atta' that is 'icca'. Need the language be carried to the point that the citta-as-agent representation is rejected as vulgar and repulsive because of its *apparent* substantialism? "Apparent" because linguistic substantialism (i.e., a subject) is not necessarily existential substantialism in the sense that the Little Self need not be conceived as lasting. Kind regards, Dan ================ Herman: > When you say anything, you are using language to communicate. Language > has implicit rules and structure. The sentence "Citta experiences an > object" is composed of subject - verb - object. > The sentence "citta experiences an object", taking the rules of language > into account, should be taken as being a substantialist representation > of an event. 36209 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 6:06am Subject: CSC-Introduction(a) [Nina: "cittas are so fast"] Dear Nina, I think you hit the nail on the head. The citta-as-agent formulation is useful for communicating anicca and moving away from interpreting experience as happening to the great "Me". Well put. Dan Nina: > Perhaps this helps: the cittas are so fast, when we think about them > they are gone. We can ask ourselves: which one, which one? That is why the > Buddha said: what is impermanent is not self. > As to helpers, etc. just a simile which may be helpful for some people. > The same for goal. Citta has no time to think of any goal, it just arises > because of conditions, and falls away. 36210 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 6:22am Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) [Phil] Dear Herman, Thanks for you kind greetings. It's nice to be back, but I'm again realizing the time sink that dsg is and why I tend to just pop in and then out again after awhile... This time, though, I intend to stay awhile. I must say that your comments on Pali ring true. I'd add that even within the suttas themselves, the meanings of words vary tremendously, depending on context (e.g., dukkha, pañña, etc.). In the commentaries we see a proliferation of words as more and more detail is added to the descriptions. I also agree that modern English is capable of expressing far more nuance than Pali. However, the Pali expresses in single words some concepts that are just plain alien to English tradition. English explanations require tomes to express these concepts because the language has no experience with them and no words that point to them. Which words to use then? Pali, but augmented with tomes of nuanced English to explain what you mean by each word. So, in conclusion, I'll just reiterate your comment that: "...we should never imagine that it is possible to capture experience in words, of any language. But we can, and should be, mindful of our constant efforts to do so." Kind Regards (or 'metta' in Pali), Dan 36211 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 6:30am Subject: Deeds of Merit - only one way to decrease defilements Hello all More from the chapter on sila, avoidance of akusala, in K Sujin's "Deeds of Merit" Available at http://www.zolag.co.uk/ebook.html Metta, Phil S. : Defilements are repugnant. Their degree and strength determines to what extent they cause the citta to be distressed and agitated. It is not in anyone's power to prevent the arising of defilements, because they are devoid of self, they are anattaa. If we know the wholesome dhamma which is opposed to a particular defilement, and if we know the way leading to the elimination of defilements, it is possible to gradually decrease their strength. For someone who has been bitten by a poisonous snake or who suffers from diseases there may be a medicine which cures ills, but such medicine is not a cure for the mental disease which are the defilements. Defilements can decrease only by the development of all kinds of kusala. 36212 From: jwromeijn Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 6:32am Subject: Re: The First Council / The Fourth Precept --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi all, > Is it a breach of the fourth precept to put forward as fact something which is not known as fact? > What is the evidence for the reciting of the Abhidhamma at the First > Council? > Kind Regards > Herman Hallo Herman There is no evidence, you know that, Herman. Most buddhologists say the Abhidhamma is composed one or more centuries later. But is "wishful thinking" the same as "not speaking the truth" ? Perhaps but let's think with metta on these people. Joop 36213 From: Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 3:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] CSC4-Introduction(a) [Howard: "No, no!"] Hi, Dan - In a message dated 9/9/04 8:08:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@y... writes: > Thanks for your words of comfort, Howard. You have a good heart. In > this case, though, you missed my point. To wit: > > Dan: > >>I'm with you. But in my ignorance, I still struggle with the > >>personification language and cringe when I hear it. I so dearly > >>crave 'pure' language that is not wrapped in personifications > that > >>aversion tends to arise when 'impure' language is used to discuss > >>something that I think should be clean of personification (viz., > >>citta and cetasika). The cringing is evidence of lack of > >>understanding: moha -> cringing. > >> > >Howard: > > I don't think that is ignorance on your part, Dan. I agree > with you > >about the personifications - I think they are actually dangerous, > playing right > >into the hands of atta view. This is why, for example, I am uneasy > with the > >language that make cittas seem to be, as I put it, "little, knowing > selves," and > >as "agents of a sort" > > Mind with wisdom does not cringe, and mind that craves pure language > is surely ignorant. [Ref: 1. dependent origination, 2. ignorance is > root of all akusala]. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay - sure. I agree that "pure language" should not be "craved". However, it should be seen as very useful, and confusing language should be seen as confusing, and care should be taken in communicating so that the intended meaning can be viewed even by those with considerable dust in their eyes, for after all, that is most of us. When non-literal terminology is used, it should be made as clear as possible that the speech is metaphorical, if not at that moment, then by means of statements made at other times. -------------------------------------------------- > > I agree that the personifications can indeed play right into the > hands of atta view, but must they? I think not, unless ignorance > drives them that way. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: The trouble is that if the language use is not very well crafted, then, because ignorance is the rule rather than the exception, that usage may indeed drive the mind towards atta view. Certainly figures of speech will be seen through by wisdom, but when that wisdom is in hiding, it is good if the speech is well enough - subtly enough - crafted to coax wisdom out of its hiding place. ----------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------- > Dan: >>Well, to hell with what "I" think! Away, thou blasted > rigidity that > >>cringes! Walk onward to understanding, to liberation from craving > and > >>cringing and rigidity! > >> > >Howard: > > No, no! I believe you are thinking quite properly. My point > was only > >that the personifications are avoidable. They should, in fact, be > avoided I > >think, or, if used, they should always be accompanied by > disclaimers. > > I don't think hard and fast rules about what kind of language to use > are helpful in breaking down our clinging fast to our conceptual > frameworks. Buddha himself used lots of metaphorical language and > personifications -- without always accompanying them by disclaimers. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Sure. But the Buddha gave teachings upon teachings, day after day after day. Much of the language used was non-literal, without disclaimers - true. But much included disclaimers as well, and much was as literal as speech is capable of. Moreover, the Buddha formulated his teaching to suit the listener, and he was incredibly adept at that. (Of course one doesn't provide a disclaimer with every use of figurative speech. ALL our speech is fundamentally misleading, and to remove all defects from a sentence would require replacing that sentence by an infinite collection of sentences: S1 to correct the original sentence, S2 to correct S1, S3 to correct S2, and so on.) ---------------------------------------------------------- > The task is to find language that clarifies the intended meaning. For > me, the personifications don't work well at this time because my > ignorance is of the type that conditions cringing at certain kinds of > metaphorical language. > --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, if you "cringe" at it because you see how it could be misleading, that is no "crime". It is far better than being taken in by it! Moreover, to cringe at it in the sense of having concern that some people might be fooled by it is good, being a matter of compassion rather than aversion. ------------------------------------------------------- > > So, "to hell with what 'I' think!" This only means that I see how the > metaphors *could* reinforce sakayaditthi, I then crave purer language > cringe because the pure language is not to be found. The problem? > Clinging to entirely reasonable thinking (viz. "Metaphorical language > is capable of reinforcing ditthi") reinforces ditthi -- emphatically! > Why emphatic? Because the thinking is correct. When I say, "To hell > with...," I mean the opposite of "cling to" even if (especially if) > the thinking is correct. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. Good not to cling. :-) ------------------------------------------------ > > Metta, > > Dan > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36214 From: Andrew Levin Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 7:58am Subject: Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" <> > > > > > Then I'm not sure what 'reducing self to one moment only' means. > Can > > you describe? > > +++++++++++++++++++ > Dear Andrew, > It is something Nina wrote to me a few times. Usually we are caught > up in the idea of me being this or that, doing this or that. But > actually there six worlds: that of seeing/visble object; > hearing/sound; tasting/tasted; and the other doors. All these worlds > have different causes and are distinct from each other, it is by > separating the worlds into one moment that self is reduced from the > whole of 'me' into oen moment only. > When my uncle was in hospital I said to him that we might take the > whole of the situation and think 'How bad'. But all the time there > are different moments. Moments with painful feeling, yes. But then > moments when the doctor says something nice. Or when he looks at the > pleasant(mildly) wallpaper. > All the time in life desirable vipaka and undesirable vipaka is > alternating, and then there are always different reactions after the > vipaka. But no self- only these different moments. So be mindful of nama and rupa, as opposed to having an idea of self this is happening to me, i am such and such? > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Also, what do you think are the necessary conditions for insight > to > > begin arising? Is it mere mindfulness of a single nama and rupa > here > > and there- as Phil suggests, or is it constant mindfulness and > > sustained energy in the practise and observation of phenomenon in > > their true nature, more of a systematic thing, seeing the three > > dharma seals in existence, as my practise guide says. > +++++++++ > The essential causes for insight are hearing true Dhamma, > considering it wisely and also pubbekata punnata (wholesome > accumulations from past lives). Yes, the true Dhamma. For instance, one has to not dwell with wrong views when practising insight meditation. How is this accomplished? Through vipassana meditation we can see the true nature of phenomenon as anatta and anicca, this is practising in accordance with the true dhamma. > Some people hear the Dhamma but it > means nothing and they turn away. Some hear it, get interested, but > consider unwisely and go wrong in various ways. > Andrew you have the ability to consider in a very wise way (and yet > you are young and currently having some problems); it shows good > accumulations. > I don't like the idea of rules about developing insight, most > importantly we have to learn what is sati and what only looks like > sati. Then different factors assist sati to arise. > ++++++++ I'm clueless. What is sati, then? > > > > > > Robert, when we are applying the principles of vipassana > meditation > > and seeing the true nature of phenomenon, shouldn't we be free of > > craving and clinging, or do we have to root out craving? (I would > > think craving would already be there waiting to be looked at, > whether > > we are mindful or not) > > > > ++++++++++++ > The main point with vipassana is to see how anatta every moment is, > that every moment arises by complex conditions. If craving arises it > is because it is conditioned to arise. It has to accepted and > studied so that the causes for craving can be seen. There are > four types of clinging(see visuddhimagga xvii 241-3). That of sense > desire clinging, wrongview > clinging, clinging to rules and rituals, and lastly > self view clinging. Note that three of the four are types of miccha- > ditthi (the three include all > types of wrong view from the gross to the very most subtle). These > three are the most dangerous type of clinging and the ones we > especially need to understand. See Vissudhimagga xvii246. The path of > vipassana gradually > eliminates all three types of micchaditthi until at sotapanna they > are eradicated forever. Later stages, after sotapanna, > then attenuate the clinging to sense desires. Robert, I'm currently unable to read and get an understanding of the different texts I have, including Vism. I can follow bare instructions, but when I try to read, it seems it is only putting more dust in my eyes as it were. I will await further development of the capability of understanding to develop, as it has in the past. > > I want to emphasize this because one of the big > mistakes I made in my > early buddhist life was to try to stop having sense > desire. It got so bad I > would feel guilty everytime I had an icecream. This all > comes from a deepseated idea of control and self. And > it is not the way to > understand. First there must be a gradual removal of > wrongview. We have accumulated much defilements and we have to learn > to understand them –not suppress them. Most of us have difficulty in > comprehending this point as "sense desire clinging is obvious …. not > so the other kinds (the three types of micchaditthi)" Visuddhimagga > Xvii 246. > RobertK. Suppression of the hindrances is a good thing, IMO, so we do not act with a hindered mind, out of the presence of gross defilements. Especially since it is not very difficult. At later stages the hindrances can be eradicated, as I'm sure I don't have to tell you. Understanding them would be necessary as per contemplation of dhammas, but what is wrong with suppressing them so that we can practise insight meditation unfettered? 36215 From: Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 4:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] CSS4-Introduction(a) [Howard: "...no object of experience." Hi, Dan - In a message dated 9/9/04 8:18:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > A question for you: > > Dan: 'Citta' is simply the experiencing or cognizing of an object. > > Howard: Yes! And without a subject of the experience, there is no > object of the experience. > > --> Are you sure? If so, what do you mean by "subject"? > --------------------------------------------- Howard: An experiencer - a "thing", whether static or dynamic, which is the doer, which experiences. ----------------------------------------------- > > > > Howard: the use of 'citta' to denote a subjective, knowing agent is > dangerous, IMO. > > --> Yes, it certainly is, as is the adoption of any language scheme. > But is it even more dangerous that the danger of clinging to the > notion of a perfect language or conceptual formulation for something > as deep as 'citta' and 'cetasika'? And cringing when that conceptual > formulation is imperfect? ------------------------------------------------- Howard: There can be no expectation of perfect formulation. It is simply a truism that clearer language, language that communicates more truly, is more useful than less adequate language. ------------------------------------------------- > > More metta, > > Dan > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36216 From: Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 4:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] object in the reality of arising sounds Hi Agrios, and Nina, and all - In a message dated 9/9/04 8:57:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, agriosinski@y... writes: > Hi Nina, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > [...] > >>So there are objects before they've been experienced? > >N: Good Q. for thinking over. An object is known, otherwise it would not be > >an object. A ruupa such as sound has to arise just a tiny fraction of time > >before it can be known by citta, because rupa at its arising moment is > weak. > >It disturbs the bhavangacitta and then the process of cittas that know it > >can begin. > > Thank you very much for your explanations. > You helped me a lot. > > metta, > Agrios > > =========================== Nina, you write "... An object is known, otherwise it would not be an object. A ruupa such as sound has to arise just a tiny fraction of time before it can be known by citta, because rupa at its arising moment is weak. It disturbs the bhavangacitta and then the process of cittas that know it can begin." Where does that ruupa arise, Nina, at the initial moment when it is not yet known? What exactly constitutes that arising? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36217 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Dear Dan, op 08-09-2004 15:36 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > "Yeah, but how can there an experience with no one to experience it?" ... > Here, the word 'experiencing' is not the greatest because it does > tend to evoke the response of "who experiences?" and is used so > frequently in English other purposes. In particular, we need a word > for 'experience at a single moment', and that is how 'citta' is used. N: I think that is good. You are still wondering about the usefulness of the idea of subject and object. And I remember, you wrote about it about two years ago. And Rob K answered you at that time. A. Sujin would say, it does not matter what word you use, but know the characteristic that appears, know it as dhamma, which is not self. When insight has developed and dhammas are directly experienced, no words are needed. But I am not as far yet. You said that you find it so difficult to understand citta: same, same for all of us. When sati sampajañña (sati and pañña) arise only then, can its characteristic be directly penetrated. And all the moments we are intellectualizing, making definitions, we all do, doubts will arise. If I remember correctly, you were also present at the short visit with A. Sujin up North (her Alaska trip) when Jim was there? About three years ago. How did it come over to you what she said? She may have talked about seeing now. Was it strange to you? Jim mentioned as topic sati-sampajañña, he found that not easy. I took that to heart, that is why I remember. What one feels about one remembers (Howard likes this one.). I find it so important and would like to help others and myself. We need sati-sampajañña, it arises when there are enough conditions for it, that is firm, correct understanding of nama and rupa. People may wonder why A. Sujin speaks about seeing so often. There are seeing and hearing all the time, not only thinking. But usually we do not pay attention to such moments, we are more interested at thinking about what we see and hear. Don't you find that?? I am inclined to thinking all the time. By talking about seeing, people may be drawn just for a moment to pay attention to seeing or to what appears through the eyes. Just a very short moment, but this can be accumulated. This is a way to begin to understand what citta is, citta is nama, and I do not dare to say to you: it experiences. But if we gain right understanding we do not fall over words like *it*. When there can be direct awareness and understanding, we are no longer tricked by experiencers, subject, little selves, etc. It actually depends on sati-sampajañña whether we can cross the border of intellectualizing, reasoning, being misled by the choice of words. D: Reading through the types of cittas, we see things such as seeing- > consciousness and "one [lobha-rooted] consciousness, accompanied by > joy, associated with wrong view, unprompted." The seeing- > consciousness is simply the registering of a visual object in the > mind. N: I would not say: in the mind. Then again we have something that lasts. Whereas mind is ephemeral, impermanent. It is citta. The first stage of tender insight is knowing nama as nama and rupa as rupa and then we begin to understand what anatta really is. The first stage of principal insight is directly understanding the arising and falling away of nama and rupa. Then there will be more understanding that what is impermanent cannot be self. How could there be a self in what arises and then falls away immediately? But the wrong view of self is not yet eradicated, that will happen when enlightenment of the first stage is attained. Thus I would say: The seeing-consciousness is simply the experience of visual object. And leave out: in the mind. I am disinclined to the word registering, because I think seeing is such a direct experience: visible object impinges on eyesense, the eyebase, and this conditions seeing. D:The lobha-rooted cittas are the experiencings (cittas) of > objects (thoughts), colored by different shades (cetasikas) such as > pleasant feeling (vedana), desire for more pleasure (lobha), and the > yabbut of 'I like this' (ditthi). N: Colored by different shades may be confusing, I think. What about conditions? They are conditioned by pleasant feeling, etc. And this is mutual, the feeling is conditioned by the lobha. They all influence each other. Nina. 36218 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 10:48am Subject: Intro Vis. XIV, 99. Text Vis. XIV, 99: And this eightfold resultant consciousness without root-cause is of two kinds as well because of having an invariable object and a variable object. It is of three kinds as classed according to [bodily] pleasure, [mental] joy, and equanimity. For (34)-(38) the five consciousnesses have each an invariable object since they occur respectively only with respect to visible data, and so on. The others (39)-(41) have a variable object. For here (39) the mind-element occurs with respect to the five beginning with visible data, and (40)-(41) the two mind-consciousness-elements occur with respect to [all] six. Here, however, body-consciousness is associated with [bodily] pleasure. The mind-consciousness-element (40) with two positions is associated with [mental] joy; the other (41) is associated with equanimity. Intro Vis. XIV, 99. The Vis. deals here with the eight rootless profitable resultants (ahetuka kusala vipaakacittas). They are: the five sense-cognitions that are kusala vipaakacitta (seeing, etc.), receiving-consciousness (sampa.ticchana-citta) that is kusala vipaakacitta, and two types of investigating-consciousness (santiira.na-citta), one accompanied by pleasant feeling (when the object is extraordinarily pleasant) and one accompanied by indifferent feeling. These ahetuka vipaakacittas can be classified as twofold: with an invariable object and with a variable object. As the Vis. explains in this section, the five sense-cognitions have each an invariable (fixed, in Pali: nyaata) object. Thus, seeing experiences only visible object, hearing experiences only sound, etc. The receiving-consciousness receives the object experienced by the preceding sense-cognition, thus, this is any of the five sense-objects. Therefore, its object is variable, not fixed (in Pali: anyaata). The two types of investigating-consciousness experience six kinds of objects and therefore, their object is also variable. When these eight kusala vipaakacittas are classified with regard to the accompanying feelings, they can, as the case demands, be accompanied by happy feeling, by indifferent feeling and by bodily pleasant feeling. The Vis states: One type of investigating-consciousness is accompanied by pleasant feeling, and this type has two positions: it can perform the function of investigating, santiira.na, in a sense-door process, and also the function of retention, tadaaramma.na after the javana-cittas. The body-consciousness that is kusala vipaakacitta is accompanied by pleasant bodily feeling (sukhasampayutta). The Tiika explains that when a pleasant tangible object strikes the bodysense, the impact is strong, and that it is therefore accompanied by bodily pleasant feeling. Whereas when visible object that is a derived ruupa impinges on the eyesense, the impact is weak, and therefore it is accompanied by indifferent feeling. The same is true for the sense-cognitions of hearing, smelling and tasting. N: Ruupas are classified as the four Great Elements and the derived ruupas which are twentyfour ruupas. Tangible object are three of the four Great Elements or principal ruupas, namely, solidity (appearing as hardness or softness), heat (appearing as heat or cold) and motion (appearing as motion or pressure). The bodysense is a ruupa that is all over the body. The Vis. (XIV, 52) states: The Vis. (XIV, 41) states about the bodysense: The great Elements are the support of the bodysense. The Expositor (II, p. 349) explains that in the case of the eye-door, ear-door, nose-door and tongue-door, derived ruupa strikes on derived ruupa. Whenever we touch things or walk, elements are impinging on elements, and the body-consciousness that is vipaakacitta is accompanied by pleasant bodily feeling or unpleasant bodily feeling. When we touch something we may believe that the bodily feeling is indifferent, but this is not so. Bodily feeling is merely result and it is very ephemeral, only lasting for one moment. Bodily pleasant feeling has nothing to do with happy feeling accompanying citta rooted in attachment, which is akusala and arises because of different conditions. It may arise very shortly after the body-consciousness and then one may confuse the two kinds of feeling, one being vipaaka and one being akusala. When the javana-cittas in a process are akusala, there are seven of the same type succeeding one another, accompanied by the same type of feeling. Summarizing the three feelings dealt with in this section: of the eight cittas that are ahetuka kusala vipaakacittas, one is accompanied by happy feeling, one is accompanied by pleasant bodily feeling, and the other six are accompanied by indifferent feeling. The different classifications by way of variable or invariable object, which depends on the position or occasion of the cittas involved, or by way of feeling, have as objective to show different aspects and different conditions of realities. This will help us to have more understanding of the fact that they are elements which are beyond control, anattaa. ***** Nina. 36219 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 10:48am Subject: transgressions, Phil Hello Phil, You were still wondering about the abandonment of coarse defilements and what could be done. Only the sotapanna has eradicated them. The development of understanding now is the answer. Today I read this sutta to Lodewijk: In the following sutta we are reminded that ignorance and wrong view give rise to all kinds of akusala, whereas right understanding leads to freedom from all defilements. The ³streamwinner², sotåpanna, who has attained the first stage of enlightenment, has eradicated wrong view and wrong practice, he cannot deviate from the right Path. He has no more conditions to commit evil deeds leading to an unhappy rebirth. We read in the ³Gradual Sayings² (Book of the Tens, Ch XI, § 5, By knowledge): Monks, when ignorance leads the way, by the reaching of states unprofitable, shamelessness and recklessness follow in its train. In one who is swayed by ignorance and is void of sense, wrong view springs up. Wrong view gives rise to wrong thinking, wrong thinking to wrong speech, wrong speech to wrong action, wrong action to wrong livelihood, wrong livelihood to wrong effort, wrong effort to wrong mindfulness, wrong mindfulness to wrong concentration, that to wrong knowledge, and that to wrong release. But, monks, when knowledge leads the way, by the attainment of profitable states, the sense of shame and self-restraint follow in its train. In one who is swayed by knowledge and has good sense, right view springs up. Right view gives rise to right thinking... right concentration gives rise to right knowledge, and that to right release. **** Nina. 36220 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 11:32am Subject: Re: Rob M'sTheory Behind The Buddha's Smile ( 04 ) by Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: Dear Dhamma Friends, This is a good ebook called 'Theory Behind the Buddha's Smile' written by Rob M and this ebook can be viewed at 'Files' section. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Rob M, I could not open the file of your ebook. This makes me delay in make progress in our discussions. With respect, Htoo Naing 36221 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 2:20pm Subject: Re: The First Council / The Fourth Precept --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > > Hi all, > > Is it a breach of the fourth precept to put forward as fact > something which is not known as fact? > > What is the evidence for the reciting of the Abhidhamma at the First > > Council? > > Kind Regards > > Herman > > Hallo Herman > > There is no evidence, you know that, Herman. Most buddhologists say > the Abhidhamma is composed one or more centuries later. > But is "wishful thinking" the same as "not speaking the truth" ? > Perhaps but let's think with metta on these people. +++++++++ Dear Joop, Buddhaghosa lived 1500 years ago. Here is what he wrote: I found this in the attakattha to the Dhammasangani (first book of the Abhidhamma) the Atthasalini: from the introductory discourse "The ancient commentary [to the Abhidhamma] therof was sang By the First council, Mahakassapa Their leader, and later again by seers, Mahinda bought it to the peerless isle, Ceylon,.."endquote He says that not only was the Abhidhamma recited at the first council but also the commentary to it. Your modern buddhologists say this is wrong: How would they know ? Do believe Buddhaghosa made up stories or the monks before him? Robertk 36222 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 3:06pm Subject: Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > > > All the time in life desirable vipaka and undesirable vipaka is > > alternating, and then there are always different reactions after > the > > vipaka. But no self- only these different moments. > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > So be mindful of nama and rupa, as opposed to having an idea of self > this is happening to me, i am such and such? > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Dear Andrew, In essence, yes. When there is only nama and rupa there are no problems. But because ignorance is conditioned to arise we can't always have such understanding. When we have a hassle we can start to see that it always circles around self. The unpleasant feeling that arises is a good reminder that we are valuing self - then we can remember that there are only namas and rupas arising. We don't get annoyed with seeing or sound. But we can get enraged by thinking "she did that to me" - and both he and she (and 'that' too) are only concepts. ______________ > > > Also, what do you think are the necessary conditions for insight > > to > > > begin arising? Is it mere mindfulness of a single nama and rupa > > here > > > and there- as Phil suggests, or is it constant mindfulness and > > > sustained energy in the practise and observation of phenomenon in > > > their true nature, more of a systematic thing, seeing the three > > > dharma seals in existence, as my practise guide says. > > +++++++++ > > The essential causes for insight are hearing true Dhamma, > > considering it wisely and also pubbekata punnata (wholesome > > accumulations from past lives). > > Yes, the true Dhamma. For instance, one has to not dwell with wrong > views when practising insight meditation. How is this accomplished? > Through vipassana meditation we can see the true nature of phenomenon > as anatta and anicca, this is practising in accordance with the true > dhamma. ++++++++++++++++ Without hearing enough true Dhamma we have the tendency to take what is not vipassana for vipassana. This is because wrong view can be so subtle and it is powerful, we think we are going right when going wrong. So we have to be brave to examine what we are listening to and how we are interpreting it. The true path always comes with detachment and that needs much patience (one of the parami). Did you read the post by Sukin today - it shows some examples. > > > ++++++++ > > I'm clueless. What is sati, then? > +++++++++++++ It is to be known each for himself. Sati comes with alobha (detachment), never attachment. It knows the presently arising moment. > clinging to sense desires. > > Robert, I'm currently unable to read and get an understanding of the > different texts I have, including Vism. I can follow bare > instructions, but when I try to read, it seems it is only putting > more dust in my eyes as it were. I will await further development of > the capability of understanding to develop, as it has in the past. > +++++++++++++ yes, very good. It has to take time to let understanding grow. I think if you can find the right things to read they will be the food that nourishes wisdom. I kept a copy of this book with me constantly for almost year and would read it even for a few minutes any chance I got: http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm . +++++++++++++ > >> Suppression of the hindrances is a good thing, IMO, so we do not act > with a hindered mind, out of the presence of gross defilements. > Especially since it is not very difficult. At later stages the > hindrances can be eradicated, as I'm sure I don't have to tell you. > Understanding them would be necessary as per contemplation of > dhammas, but what is wrong with suppressing them so that we can > practise insight meditation unfettered? +++++++++++++ Remember that insight meditation is showing us that each moment is conditioned. When we have the idea of practising in such a way (unfettered and without hindrances) we are not being realistic to the way conditions work. Whenever there is momentary understanding of a hindrance such as craving then at that moment (of understanding) there is tadanga (temporary ) removal of the hindrance. BUT more importantly there is also some erasement of the idea of self. On the otherhand if we think we first have to be hindrance free and then start doing vipassana, we are missing the chance now to understand the hindrances as they are. Robertk 36223 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 3:11pm Subject: Re: Rob M'sTheory Behind The Buddha's Smile ( 04 ) by Htoo HI Htoo, I am confused. Clearly, you had been able to view the file for the first three sets of comments. What has changed? If it helps, I will temporarily upload another copy to the files section. It is true the sometimes Yahoo! misbehaves, so you might want to save a copy of the file on your computer to browse at your lesure (even when not online). MIght this help? Your comments are great and I will be incorporating them into the text. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > This is a good ebook called 'Theory Behind the Buddha's Smile' > written by Rob M and this ebook can be viewed at 'Files' section. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Dear Rob M, > > I could not open the file of your ebook. This makes me delay in make > progress in our discussions. > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing 36224 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 3:19pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi Ken (and Howard), ====================== Now, where is the problem? Why am I happy with this while you, both, are not? Is it the word substantialist? I have no problem with substantialism unless it says that concepts are substantial - which they are not, of course. ====================== No problem, really. I am happy for you to be happy, regardless of what you believe. I am less happy when matters of fact are misrepresented. I accept this can happen in good faith, and that it also happens for other reasons. What was taught by whom, to whom, when, and where is not a matter of conjecture. We all have access to the same facts. What was meant by what was taught is not a matter of fact, and we may well toss our ideas and the ideas of others to and fro. What was heard from the Buddha's mouth is not a matter of contention. Neither is what is written in the Abhidhamma. But the suggestion that the Buddha was in any way the author is overstepping the boundaries of known fact. And what often follows from the incorrect attribution of authorship ie uncritical acceptance of the Abhidhamma, is not just a problem, it is plain dangerous. In summary, I am happy for people to be substantialists. The Buddha did not teach substantialism. I am not happy for people to say that the Buddha was a substantialist. Kind Regards Herman 36225 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 3:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi Herman, and all >What was heard from the Buddha's mouth is not a matter of contention. >Neither is what is written in the Abhidhamma. But the suggestion that >the Buddha was in any way the author is overstepping the boundaries of >known fact. And what often follows from the incorrect attribution of >authorship ie uncritical acceptance of the Abhidhamma, is not just a >problem, it is plain dangerous. Isn't a greater danger getting caught up in doubt that prevents you from remaining open to the Buddha's teaching, or that can lead you speaking in a way that could be seen as creating divisions? Why not remember that people are the owners of their kamma, and respond or don't respond to the Buddha's teaching according to accumulations? And believe what they will or won't according to accumulations. There's nothing you can do to change their view in a real way compared to the amount of mental energy that must be expended in the attempt, which must only feed everyone's restlessness, and possibly even ill-will, which are hindrances. (You posted some e-mails yesterday which gave rise to ill-will in those who read them, I'd say.) If we learn to accept others' views as beyond our control we can relax and devote ourselves to what we believe to be the true Dhamma. That's what I do - most of the time except right now, for example! :) You might say that it is dangerous to let what one considers wrong view to prevail, but remember the context. It's not like those of us who take the Abhidhamma to be the Buddha's most refined teaching are running rampant in the streets, burning copies of Bhikkhu Bodhi's wonderful sutta anthologies! Why not let us have our cetasikas in peace! I say that in a friendly way. There are other forms of much more prevalent and fast spreading and dangerous wrong view that we can *all* agree on. Why not turn your attention to Soka-Gakkai! I can give you their address! (Just joking.) Metta, Phil 36226 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 3:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] transgressions, Phil Hello Nina Thank you for reminding me of the way right view leads the way. Now I remember that when I met with Robert K, the first thing we talked about was the sutta about the way right view precedes the others, like the dawn leads....now I can't even remember what it was. But though I can't remember the sutta, I seem to have remembered it's importance, and I'm aware that establishing right view comes first. In my practice, it comes first every morning as well, with my coffee. Every morning, I reflect on what I know of the Four Noble Truths, The Eightfold Path, The 3 characteristics, the Brahma-Viharas and what they do and don't mean. And during the day, since I don't know yet (haven't remembered yet) how to reflect on the qualities of the Buddha, I reflect on the above when the opportunity arises. Of course, reflecting on these things and being "swayed by knowledge" are very different things. I know it is all thinking for me now. Alas, I learned last month how transgressions arise in a yet uncontrollable way for me. But I also learned that a wiser response to transgressions arose as well. No beating myself over the head for days about it. Instead there were wholesome moments of shame over akusala and concern over consequences (I like the image in the commentary that is mentionned in Rob M's book, if I recall, about not wanting to grab the excrement smeared end of the stick and not wanting to grab the red hot end of the stick to describe these two kusala cittas) that gave way to gratitude to the Buddha for teaching the way that gradually leads to the ending of transgressions. The only way, in my opinion. You taught me recently that panna, right wisdom such as it were, is included in right view. There is right view that can be understand intellectually, and then there is this deeper right view, panna, that comes from seeing realities through the six doors. That has not often arisen yet. I press on patiently, not trying to have satipatthana, but ready to welcome it into my daily life. Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina van gorkom" To: Sent: Friday, September 10, 2004 2:48 AM Subject: [dsg] transgressions, Phil Hello Phil, You were still wondering about the abandonment of coarse defilements and what could be done. Only the sotapanna has eradicated them. The development of understanding now is the answer. Today I read this sutta to Lodewijk: In the following sutta we are reminded that ignorance and wrong view give rise to all kinds of akusala, whereas right understanding leads to freedom from all defilements. (snip) 36227 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 4:37pm Subject: RE: [dsg] CSC4-Introduction(a) [Herman: "rules of language"] Hi Dan, Howard and everyone, Thank you for this post and the others in the series. Excellent stuff!! ============ D > Excellent points you make about the structure of language. I agree that the sentence "Citta experiences an object" has a subject and is strongly *suggestive* of a substantialist representation. My beef with this formulation is that the language structure lends strength to that suggestion. ============== H > Yes, you are quite right. Any baby born just about anywhere nowadays inherits this structure of language with its implicit subject - object duality. And human infants acquire language by aping, mimicking, uncritical osmosis. How language affects perception and how perception affects the development of language are huge, and fascinating topics. But the fact remains, here we all are, armed with our inherited subject - object paradigm. ================ D > However, don't you think metaphor can still be useful for elucidating elusive ideas? The citta-as-agent metaphor can be useful in the dissolution of the notion of an eternal, abiding Self. So, it needn't be read as incorrigibly "substantialist." Even if citta-as-agent is interpreted literally as a little Self, it attenuates the tendency to the Big Self interpretation of experiences happening to 'me'. This Little Self is not lasting (anicca) and thus does not have the characteristics of the "Self" that constitutes the sakayaditthi, i.e., the 'atta' that is 'icca'. Need the language be carried to the point that the citta-as-agent representation is rejected as vulgar and repulsive because of its *apparent* substantialism? "Apparent" because linguistic substantialism (i.e., a subject) is not necessarily existential substantialism in the sense that the Little Self need not be conceived as lasting. ================= H > When there is understanding that all language is metaphor, yes, than the clever use of metaphor can be very useful in all sorts of ways. But the reality for many is that words are taken as reality. At a most basic level, words are instructions, commands. People will uncritically act on the words, past or present, of others. Words condition action and vice versa (verbal thoughts being sublimated speech). It is clear that many people, until the day they die, remain programmed, whether positively or negatively, by the words of others. Many indeed crave that programming (for those so afflicted there could be nothing worse than mindstates free of discursive thought, discursive thought being nothing more than the regurgitated words a sometimes guarded / most times unguarded mind has allowed in). In a Buddhist context, the best use for words is to end suffering. The Buddha pointed the way to Nibbana. The suttas demonstrate the road to a consciousness free from the hotch-potch of words which is the reality of the unguarded moment. So I'm with Howard on this one, and say that precision is the order of the day. And sometimes silence is the most accurate. And most pleasant :-) I like your distinction between linguistic and existential substantialism. Great discussing with you, Dan Herman 36228 From: Andrew Levin Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 4:38pm Subject: Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" > wrote: > > > > All the time in life desirable vipaka and undesirable vipaka > is > > > alternating, and then there are always different reactions after > > the > > > vipaka. But no self- only these different moments. > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > So be mindful of nama and rupa, as opposed to having an idea of > self > > this is happening to me, i am such and such? > > > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Dear Andrew, > In essence, yes. When there is only nama and rupa there are no > problems. But because ignorance is conditioned to arise we can't > always have such understanding. > When we have a hassle we can start to see that it always circles > around self. The unpleasant feeling that arises is a good reminder > that we are valuing self - then we can remember that there are only > namas and rupas arising. We don't get annoyed with seeing or sound. > But we can get enraged by thinking "she did that to me" - and both > he and she (and 'that' too) are only concepts. Right, this makes sense, we want to view our nama and rupa more from a detached, laboratory-like perspective, not from the standpoint of a person or being. So we try to be mindful and aware of nama and rupa as they arise. Im somewhat OK with that, as my meditation is starting to show up in my daily life, and I know I can be mindful of some nama and rupa when I practise the foundations of mindfulness. > > > > Also, what do you think are the necessary conditions for > insight > > > to > > > > begin arising? Is it mere mindfulness of a single nama and > rupa > > > here > > > > and there- as Phil suggests, or is it constant mindfulness and > > > > sustained energy in the practise and observation of phenomenon > in > > > > their true nature, more of a systematic thing, seeing the > three > > > > dharma seals in existence, as my practise guide says. > > > +++++++++ > > > The essential causes for insight are hearing true Dhamma, > > > considering it wisely and also pubbekata punnata (wholesome > > > accumulations from past lives). > > > > Yes, the true Dhamma. For instance, one has to not dwell with > wrong > > views when practising insight meditation. How is this > accomplished? > > Through vipassana meditation we can see the true nature of > phenomenon > > as anatta and anicca, this is practising in accordance with the > true > > dhamma. > > ++++++++++++++++ > Without hearing enough true Dhamma we have the tendency to take what > is not vipassana for vipassana. This is because wrong view can be so > subtle and it is powerful, we think we are going right when going > wrong. So we have to be brave to examine what we are listening to > and how we are interpreting it. The true path always comes with > detachment and that needs much patience (one of the parami). Did you > read the post by Sukin today - it shows some examples. > > > > Yes, I read the post. I think hearing the true Dhamma does not necessarily mean hearing from a teacher, but can also be putting together an understanding from scripture or other sources. For example, I have a guide to walking meditation that I am reading by Ven. U Silananda, and I consider it the true Dhamma. However, I think that the phrase "not dependent on wrong views" in some of the interpretations I have seen of satipatthana applies, and this means seeing the three dharma seals, or the true nature of reality, in reality. I think this may be necessary for further progress, as with wrong views we cannot have the eradication of craving and clinging as I gather from the commentaries. > > > > ++++++++ > > > > I'm clueless. What is sati, then? > > > +++++++++++++ > It is to be known each for himself. Sati comes with alobha > (detachment), > never attachment. It knows the presently arising moment. > > > > clinging to sense desires. > > > > Robert, I'm currently unable to read and get an understanding of > the > > different texts I have, including Vism. I can follow bare > > instructions, but when I try to read, it seems it is only putting > > more dust in my eyes as it were. I will await further development > of > > the capability of understanding to develop, as it has in the past. > > > +++++++++++++ > > yes, very good. It has to take time to let understanding grow. > I think if you can find the right things to read they will be the > food that nourishes wisdom. I kept a copy of this book with me > constantly for almost year and would read it even for a few minutes > any chance I got: > http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm > . Explain to me, if you would, how this kind of wisdom, wisdom from considering the teachings, relates to wisdom arising from concentration, that is to say panna. Panna is the wisdom arisen from concentration, right? > +++++++++++++ > > > >> Suppression of the hindrances is a good thing, IMO, so we do > not act > > with a hindered mind, out of the presence of gross defilements. > > Especially since it is not very difficult. At later stages the > > hindrances can be eradicated, as I'm sure I don't have to tell > you. > > Understanding them would be necessary as per contemplation of > > dhammas, but what is wrong with suppressing them so that we can > > practise insight meditation unfettered? > +++++++++++++ > Remember that insight meditation is showing us that each moment is > conditioned. When we have the idea of practising in such a way > (unfettered and without hindrances) we are not being realistic to > the way conditions work. Whenever there is momentary understanding > of a hindrance such as craving then at that moment (of > understanding) there is tadanga (temporary ) removal of the > hindrance. BUT more importantly there is also some erasement of the > idea of self. > On the otherhand if we think we first have to be hindrance free and > then start doing vipassana, we are missing the chance now to > understand the hindrances as they are. > Robertk I can't quite say I understand. For example, I was downstairs last night with some of my books in the basement for some time, reading and trying in vain to get some breathing meditation going. However, it was good to be away from the computer and by myself. When I came back to the computer, it was extremely clear that as soon as I got my hand on the mouse, craving was present. I have never seen craving with such clarity before. I would learn towards saying this is closer to understanding craving, (I concede your point on the principles of insight meditation), but would you really say this is temporary removal? I wouldn't know how such a thing would be known. Furthermore, I am anxious to get one really decent session of concentration meditation going, because I know that on at least one occasion where I have, I come out and am not dependent on wrong views of reality. And to me, momentary concentration, or access concentration (it seems the two are somewhat related, to me), is one of the milestones of concentration meditation, so, I naturally link these two together and would like their arisal before I go on to practise further. Good discussing Dharma with you. Regards, AL 36229 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 4:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit - only one way to decrease defilements Hello all K.S > > Defilements can decrease only by the development of all kinds of kusala And by "all kinds of kusala" Khun Sujin is referring to the 10 deeds of merit lying within dana, sila and mental development. I find this idea very interesting. When I came to DSG and found Abdhidhamma, I developed an idea that only panna could eradicate defilements, and that this could only happen in a very gradual way, with no direct action on my own part. That was an oversimplification, and a misunderstanding of the teaching I had come across. I wonder if this analogy is helpful? A doctor removes visible tumours (coarse defilements) in a fairly purposeful way. The scalpel represents wholesome deeds.. But when it comes to the latent forms of the disease, if you will, the scalpel is no longer enough. A much more patient, holistic approach becomes necessary. There is less hope of making a clear prognosis. It will take time, and it is now much further beyond the doctor's ability to control things. And this patient, holistic method represents panna, when it comes to subtle defilements. But there are still wholesome deeds to be done. Mental development, especially, might be the kusala that is most helpful with subtle defilements. Of course, mental development will involve cultivating panna. K.S > > . For someone who has been bitten by a poisonous snake or who > suffers from diseases there may be a medicine which cures ills, but such > medicine is not a cure for the mental disease which are the defilements. The only cure, Khun Sujin tells us, is wholesome deeds. And "if we know the wholesome dhamma which is opposed to a particular defilement, and if we know the way leading to the elimination of defilements, it is possible to gradually decrease their strength," she writes.I don't know yet which wholesome dhamma is opposed to which particular defilement, but that is why I'm reading the book. No hurry to figure out that one. I hope I will remember to come back to this question when I have finished reading the book. . Metta, Phil 36230 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 4:54pm Subject: The Buddha as physician (was Re: [dsg] Herman on anatta / was Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matt roke" wrote: > Hi Robetk and Kenh, > If I choose to go and buy soap rather than not wash, would I be showing a > lack of confidence in the Dhamma by trying to change conditions rather > than understanding them? > > Confidence in Dhamma is knowing that there is no one there because there > is only that which impinges on the eye or some other sense door, nothing > more. > Is it not? > Hi Matt, We seem to agree on this subject and you seem to have answered your own question. Nonetheless, I will have a go at it. Wise people, without wrong view, wash just as well as foolish people, with wrong view. Daily life activities go on regardless of understanding. A foolish person may decide, "I will not buy soap, I will not wash, I will fall in a heap on the floor and experience my own non-existence!" That foolish behaviour then becomes his daily life activity – there is no escaping it. A learned trainee, when he is buying soap, knows he is buying soap, but, during the course of that activity, he also knows rupa as rupa, nama as nama, lobha as lobha, alobha as alobha – and so on. A not-so-learned trainee (such as you or I), when he is buying soap, knows he is buying soap, but, during the course of that activity, he also knows – even if only at the back of his thinking mind – "there is only nama and rupa here." The learned trainee does not think, "It is not good enough to know lobha as lobha, I must set up the conditions for alobha." That would, as Robert has said, indicate a lack of faith in the Dhamma – a lack of faith in the efficacy of knowing dhammas as they are. That learned trainee might entertain the thought, "I do not like lobha, therefore I will have alobha instead." If so, he will have the opportunity for knowing lobha as lobha. In our not-so-learned position, we might also have opportunities for knowing doubt as doubt or even (perish the thought) belief-in-self as belief-in-self. Is that how you see it? Ken H 36231 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 5:45pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi Phil, >What was heard from the Buddha's mouth is not a matter of contention. >Neither is what is written in the Abhidhamma. But the suggestion that >the Buddha was in any way the author is overstepping the boundaries of >known fact. And what often follows from the incorrect attribution of >authorship ie uncritical acceptance of the Abhidhamma, is not just a >problem, it is plain dangerous. Isn't a greater danger getting caught up in doubt that prevents you from remaining open to the Buddha's teaching, or that can lead you speaking in a way that could be seen as creating divisions? ================= H > Thank you very much for speaking honestly with me. I value that highly. Let me ask you some questions. In terms of the present moment, how do the bona fides of the authors whose thoughts you are repeating figure? Is a teaching good or useful or true because of who is teaching it? Or is a teaching good or useful or true because it accurately models what happens or can happen? I am very open to the teachings of the Buddha, because I find they liberate from suffering. And I also have a critical faculty that understands that people look for external authority, through which fact one discarded view will be rapidly replaced with another. =========================== P > Why not remember that people are the owners of their kamma, and respond or don't respond to the Buddha's teaching according to accumulations? And believe what they will or won't according to accumulations. ============================ H > Again, some questions if I may? How do these views, and further down the page, accord with your experience? If your experience is that nothing can be done, why stand in front of a classroom and teach? If your experience is that you can do things that influence the course of events, why parrot views that are not your experience? ================= P > There's nothing you can do to change their view in a real way compared to the amount of mental energy that must be expended in the attempt, which must only feed everyone's restlessness, and possibly even ill-will, which are hindrances. ================ H > I'd say I post emails that give rise to ill-will all the time. People are very attached to their views, you know, the more baseless the greater the attachment (of necessity). ================== P > (You posted some e-mails yesterday which gave rise to ill-will in those who read them, I'd say.) =================== H > If you care to be more specific, I will be happy to address it. Like you, I am not a trigger-happy blithering idiot, and I do consider what I say before I say it. ======== P > If we learn to accept others' views as beyond our control we can relax and devote ourselves to what we believe to be the true Dhamma. That's what I do - most of the time except right now, for example! :) You might say that it is dangerous to let what one considers wrong view to prevail, but remember the context. It's not like those of us who take the Abhidhamma to be the Buddha's most refined teaching are running rampant in the streets, burning copies of Bhikkhu Bodhi's wonderful sutta anthologies! Why not let us have our cetasikas in peace! =================== H > Am I spoiling your lobha ? :-) I encourage you to compare what Abhidhamma you have osmosed with the dhatuvibhangasutta. http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/majjhima/140-dhatuvibhanga-e.htm I appreciate your honesty Phil. You are a true friend. Kind Regards Herman 36232 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 6:28pm Subject: Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" <> Right, this makes sense, we want to view our nama and rupa more from a > detached, laboratory-like perspective, not from the standpoint of a > person or being. So we try to be mindful and aware of nama and rupa > as they arise. Im somewhat OK with that, as my meditation is starting > to show up in my daily life, and I know I can be mindful of some nama > and rupa when I practise the foundations of mindfulness. > +++++++++++++ Dear Andrew, very good, so even a little mindfulness can make a big difference. But usually we want more- and this might show we don't accept conditions as they are now. ++++++++++++++++++++ > > > I think if you can find the right things to read they will be the > > food that nourishes wisdom. I kept a copy of this book with me > > constantly for almost year and would read it even for a few minutes > > any chance I got: > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm > > .++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Explain to me, if you would, how this kind of wisdom, wisdom from > considering the teachings, relates to wisdom arising from > concentration, that is to say panna. Panna is the wisdom arisen from > concentration, right? > > > +++++++++++++ What sort of concentration is meant by the visuddhimagga(xiv7) when it says that concentration is the proximate cause of panna (wisdom)? Obviously it is not miccha-samadhi. Bear in mind that miccha-samadhi(wrong concentration) comes in countless variations. If it arises in conjunction with refined lobha(desire) it will feel calm and peaceful. Samma-samadhi is of two main types: that associated with satipatthana vipassana and that associated with samatha (concentration meditation). Whenever any citta arises there is also samadhi. At any moment of satipatthana, correct understanding of a paramattha dhamma, there must be samadhi associated with it it. That type of samadhi is samma-samadhi but it only lasts for that moment or moments that insight is occuring. It has the function of fixing or focusing on the object. If samma-samadhi did not arise then panna would not have a clear object to insight. At the moments of vipassana-nana samadhi becomes very strong and the minddoor process is vividly seen. However, both before and after those moments, samadhi may be at its usual daily life levels. Samma-samadhi is a most necessary ingredient of the eighfactored path but we must know that it can only arise when there is samma-ditthi. You can ask Nina too, but I think I am right in saying that 'proximate cause' doesn't always mean in time sequence. The Patthana gives conditions that are co-nascent arisng at the same time. Some teachers don't study Abhidhamma and may tend to interpret 'proximate' as always meaning prior. Samma-ditthi(right understanding) should be given prominence : "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states. For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For one of right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right speech, right action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood springs up. For one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of right effort, right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right knowledge springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance springs up. Anguttara Nikaya 10:121" And reading/considering the teachings helps right understanding to develop. > > +++++++++++++ > > Remember that insight meditation is showing us that each moment is > > conditioned. When we have the idea of practising in such a way > > (unfettered and without hindrances) we are not being realistic to > > the way conditions work. Whenever there is momentary understanding > > of a hindrance such as craving then at that moment (of > > understanding) there is tadanga (temporary ) removal of the > > hindrance. BUT more importantly there is also some erasement of the > > idea of self. > > On the otherhand if we think we first have to be hindrance free and > > then start doing vipassana, we are missing the chance now to > > understand the hindrances as they are. >__________________________________________________________ > > I can't quite say I understand. For example, I was downstairs last > night with some of my books in the basement for some time, reading and > trying in vain to get some breathing meditation going. However, it > was good to be away from the computer and by myself. When I came back > to the computer, it was extremely clear that as soon as I got my hand > on the mouse, craving was present. I have never seen craving with > such clarity before. I would learn towards saying this is closer to > understanding craving, (I concede your point on the principles of > insight meditation), but would you really say this is temporary > removal? I wouldn't know how such a thing would be known. > > Furthermore, I am anxious to get one really decent session of > concentration meditation going, because I know that on at least one > occasion where I have, I come out and am not dependent on wrong views > of reality. And to me, momentary concentration, or access > concentration (it seems the two are somewhat related, to me), is one > of the milestones of concentration meditation, so, I naturally link > these two together and would like their arisal before I go on to > practise further. > > Good discussing Dharma with you. > > +++++++++ Good discussing with you too. I spent over 2 years trying to duplicate some clarity that I had had. But finally I realized this actually stopped new insights coming. Now my approach is taking every moment as a new one and learning from it. This new approach doesn't disqualify any moment or preference any moment. (Taking this in the wrong way (as I do often) we might think nothing at all is to be done- wrong practice is always ready to happen whatever we do. ) I wrote some letters to an American writer that were edited and put on the net, that you might like reading. http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html RobertK 36233 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 9:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Merely Pondering, no 1. Dear Sarah, op 09-09-2004 10:16 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y... >> There may not be any wrong view or idea of self. For example, when there > is atta-sa~n~naa, there is not necessarily any wrong view of self. It is a > vipallasa (perversion) of sa~n~naa, but not necessaily ditthi vipallasa > (perversion of view).< > ***** > S: In other words, there may be a distortion of perception in some regard > as there is with every unwholesome citta arising, but not necessarily > wrong view. N: I still find it difficult to understand what atta-sa~n~naa is. What kind of atta? Perhaps just with clinging, and not necessarily wrong view? It is opposed to anattaa-sañña, and when hearing these in one context I just wonder. Good for India? In B. Dict. it says: the sotapanna eradicates the perversion of sañña, citta and ditthi that the impersonal is a personality. What do you think? Nina. 36234 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 9:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] object in the reality of arising sounds Hi Howard, op 09-09-2004 17:10 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Nina, you write "... An object is known, otherwise it would not be an > object. A ruupa such as sound has to arise just a tiny fraction of time before > it can be known by citta, because rupa at its arising moment is weak. It > disturbs the bhavangacitta and then the process of cittas that know it can > begin." > Where does that ruupa arise, Nina, at the initial moment when it is > not yet known? What exactly constitutes that arising? N: There are four factors that can originate rupa: kamma, citta, heat or nutrition. When we see colour of what we call the body, this colour can be originated by one of these four. When we see colour outside it is only originated by heat (utu, temperature). When colour impinges on the eye-sense it can become an object of citta, and at that moment we can say that the eyesense is a doorway. We can see the colour of the moon; the moon is far way, but colour can impinge on the eyesense. That colour is originated by temperature. So it is complex in each of these cases. You can look at Vis. 99 Intro for the tangible object that hits the bodysense. That is a more violent impact compared to colour that impinges on the eyesense. Nina. 36235 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 9:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) [Phil] Dear Dan, Do stay longer this time. See below. op 09-09-2004 15:22 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > So, in conclusion, I'll just reiterate your comment that: "...we > should never imagine that it is possible to capture experience in > words, of any language. But we can, and should be, mindful of our > constant efforts to do so." N: May I add: and be mindful of what can be experienced through eyes, ear, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind, that is the way to check the truth. 36236 From: Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 6:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] object in the reality of arising sounds Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/10/04 12:50:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > op 09-09-2004 17:10 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >Nina, you write "... An object is known, otherwise it would not be an > >object. A ruupa such as sound has to arise just a tiny fraction of time > before > >it can be known by citta, because rupa at its arising moment is weak. It > >disturbs the bhavangacitta and then the process of cittas that know it can > >begin." > >Where does that ruupa arise, Nina, at the initial moment when it is > >not yet known? What exactly constitutes that arising? > N: There are four factors that can originate rupa: kamma, citta, heat or > nutrition. When we see colour of what we call the body, this colour can be > originated by one of these four. When we see colour outside it is only > originated by heat (utu, temperature). When colour impinges on the eye-sense > it can become an object of citta, and at that moment we can say that the > eyesense is a doorway. We can see the colour of the moon; the moon is far > way, but colour can impinge on the eyesense. That colour is originated by > temperature. > So it is complex in each of these cases. You can look at Vis. 99 Intro for > the tangible object that hits the bodysense. That is a more violent impact > compared to colour that impinges on the eyesense. > Nina. > > ============================= I really didn't make myself clear. The moon is just concept. What does "the moon's color" refer to? Where is that color? Where does it arise? If not in "mind", then where? In space? Space is concept. What does it mean for color to be "outside"? Outside of what? The body? Body is just concept. If "outside color", whatever that is, is originated by temperature, then where is that temperature? Where does *it* arise? It seems to me that none of this is explained, and none of it makes much sense. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36237 From: Dighanakha Nutcracker Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 10:54pm Subject: Cullapalobhana Jataka CULLA-PALOBHANA-JATAKA (No. 263) "Not through the sea," etc. This story the Master told at Jetavana, also about a backsliding Brother. The Master had him brought into the Hall of Truth, and asked if it were true that he was backslider. Yes, said he, it was. "Women," said the Master, "in olden days made even believing souls to sin." Then he told a story. Once on a time Brahmadatta, the King of Benares, was childless. He said to his queen, "Let us offer prayer for a son." They offered prayer. After a long time, the Bodhisatta came down from the world of Brahma, and was conceived by this queen. So soon as he was born, he was bathed, and given to a serving woman to nurse. As he took the breast, he cried. He was given to another; but while a woman held him, he would not be quiet. So he was given to a man servant; and as soon as the man took him, he was quiet. After that men used to carry him about. When they suckled him, they would milk the breast for him, or they gave him the breast from behind a screen. Even when he grew older, they could not show him a woman. The king caused to be made for him a separate place for sitting or what not, and a separate room for meditation, all by himself. When the lad was sixteen years old, the king thought thus within himself. "Other son have I none, and this one enjoys no pleasures. He will not even wish for the kingdom. What's the good of such a son?" And there was a certain dancing girl, clever at dance and song and music, young, able to gain ascendancy over any man she came across. She approached the king, and asked what he was thinking about; the king told her what it was. "Let be, my lord," said she: "I will allure him, I will make him love me." "Well, if you can allure my son, who has never had any dealings whatsoever with women, he shall be king, and you shall be his chief queen!" "Leave that to me, my lord," said she; "and don't be anxious." So she came to the people of the guard, and said, "At dawn of day I will go to the sleeping place of the prince, and outside the room where he meditates apart I will sing. If he is angry, you must tell me, and I will go away; but if he listens, speak my praises." This they agreed to do. So in the morning time she took her stand in that place, and sang with a voice of honey, so that the music was as sweet as the song, and the song as sweet as the music. The prince lay listening. Next day, he commanded that she should stand near and sing. The next day, he commanded her to stand in the private chamber, and the next, in his own presence; and so by and bye desire arose in him; he went the way of the world, and knew the joy of love. "I will not let another have this woman," he resolved; and taking his sword, he ran amok through the street, chasing the people. The king had him captured, and banished him from the city along with the girl. Together they journeyed to the jungle, away down the Ganges. There, with the river on one side and the sea on the other, they made a hut, and there they lived. She sat indoors, and cooked the roots and bulbs; the Bodhisatta brought wild fruits from the forest. One day, when he was away in search of fruits, a hermit from an island in the sea, who was going his rounds to get food, saw smoke as he passed through the air, and alighted beside this hut. "Sit down until it is cooked," said the woman; then her woman's charms seduced his soul, and brought it down from his Jhana, making a breach in his purity. And he, like a crow with broken wing, unable to leave her, sat there the whole day till he saw the Bodhisatta coming, and then ran off quickly in the direction of the sea. "This must be an enemy," thought he, and drawing his sword set off in chase. But the ascetic, making as though he would rise in the air, fell down into the sea. Then thought the Bodhisatta, "Yon man is doubtless an ascetic who came hither through the air; and now that his Jhana is broken, he has fallen into the sea. I must go help him." And standing on the shore he uttered these verses:-- "Not through the sea, but by your magic power, You journeyed hither at an earlier hour; Now by a woman's evil company You have been made to plunge beneath the sea. "Full of seductive wiles, deceitful all, They tempt the most pure-hearted to his fall. Down -- down they sink: a man should flee afar From women, when he knows what kind they are. "Whomso they serve, for gold or for desire, They burn him up like fuel in the fire." "Hallucination, sorrow, and disease, Mirage, distress (and solid bonds are these), The snare of death, deep-seated in the mind -- Who trusts in these is vilest of his kind. When the ascetic heard these words which the Bodhisatta spake, he stood up in the midst of the sea, and resuming his interrupted Jhana, he rose through the air, and went away to his dwelling place. Thought the Bodhisatta, "Yon ascetic, with so great a burden, goes through the air like a fleck of cotton. Why should not I like him cultivate the Jhana, and pass through the air?" So he returned to his hut, and led the woman among mankind again; then he told her to be gone, and himself went into the jungle, where he built him a hut in a pleasant spot, and became an ascetic; he prepared for the Jhana, cultivated the Faculties and the Attainments, and became destined for the world of Brahma. When this discourse was ended, the Master declared the Truths: (now at the conclusion of the Truths the backsliding Brother became established in the Fruit of the First Path:) "At that time,' said he, "I was myself the youth that had never had anything to do with women." FINIS Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me.' (Dighanakha Sutta) 36238 From: antony272b2 Date: Thu Sep 9, 2004 11:58pm Subject: Re: Deeds of Merit - only one way to decrease defilements Dear Phil, Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote: "Merit and Spiritual Growth The performance of deeds of merit forms one of the most essential elements of Buddhist practice. Its various modes provide in their totality a compendium of applied Buddhism, showing Buddhism not as a system of ideas but as a complete way of life. Buddhist popular belief has often emphasized merit as a productive source of worldly blessings -- of health, wealth, long life, beauty and friends. As a result of this emphasis, meritorious activity has come to be conceived rather in terms of a financial investment, as a religious business venture yielding returns to the satisfaction of the agent's mundane desires. While such a conception no doubt contains an element of truth, its popularization has tended to eclipse the more important function merit plays in the context of Buddhist practice. Seen in correct perspective, merit is an essential ingredient in the harmony and completeness of the spiritual life, a means of self-cultivation, and an indispensable stepping-stone to spiritual progress." and: "Merit and knowledge together constitute the two sets of equipment the spiritual aspirant requires in the quest for deliverance, the equipment of merit (puññasambhara) and the equipment of knowledge (ñanasambhara), respectively. Each set of equipment has its own contribution to make to the fulfillment of the spiritual life. The equipment of merit facilitates progress in the course of samsaric wandering: it brings a favorable rebirth, the encounter with good friends to guide one's footsteps along the path, the meeting with opportunities for spiritual growth, the flowering of the lofty qualities of character, and the maturation of the spiritual faculties required for the higher attainments. The equipment of knowledge brings the factor directly necessary for cutting the bonds of samsaric existence: the penetration of truth, enlightenment, the undistorted comprehension of the nature of actuality." for the whole essay: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel259.html Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote: "...when the Buddha talked about the forms of merit, he > said, "Don't be afraid of merit, for merit is another word for happiness." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dana-giving/message/1 with metta / Antony. 36239 From: Andrew Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 0:58am Subject: On Facts and Absolutisms Dear Members A very well-known scholar of Buddhism, Professor Peter Harvey, writes in his book, An Introduction to Buddhism, that: "the claim that the whole of the present Vinaya and Sutta sections of scripture were recited then [at the First Council] is probably an exaggeration." He writes that the purpose of the First Council was "to agree the contents of the Dhamma and Vinaya which the Buddha had left as `teacher'". Although he nowhere expressly states that the Abhidhamma was not included in that "Dhamma" recited at the First Council, he does allude in his Introduction to the possibility of "little" new material being added to the Pali Canon after it was committed to writing in Sri Lanka around 80 BC. Obviously, therefore, he does not hold the view that the Pali Canon of today is the same as that recited by the Arahats at the First Council. As Rob K has pointed out, Abhidhamma texts make the claim that the Abhidhamma was recited at the First Council. Others, such as Herman and Joop, dispute that claim. If I am correct, they believe that the overwhelming conclusion of scholars is that the Abhidhamma was a centuries-later addition and, as such, was not recited at the First Council. Herman has gone so far as to query whether failure to acknowledge this scholarship verbally amounts to a breach of the 4th precept against false speech. In his posts, he often alludes to the "fact" of the Abhidhamma not having been taught by the Buddha. This interesting DSG discussion has prompted me to take a closer look at the concept of "fact" and its implications for the way we should communicate with each other. My first resort is to one of my favourite thinkers of all time, the palaeontologist and science historian, Stephen Jay Gould. He discusses the concept of "fact" in his essay "Evolution as Fact and Theory". The first point he makes is that "fact" does not mean "absolute certainty". This is obvious. When Buddhist scholars consider the facts of Buddhist history, they are referring to the facts as we currently believe them to be based upon available evidence. If more evidence comes to light (as it often does), the "facts" may change. Facts are not absolutisms and it is foolish in the extreme to treat them as such. Gould continues: "In science, `fact' can only mean `confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent'". By its very terms, this scientific treatment of "fact" contains a question of degree and a value judgment. That being so, nobody can be surprised if person A reaches a different factual conclusion from person B. Neither of these two persons in disagreement is claiming absolute certainty about his position. They are disagreeing about an interpretation of data. Transferring this to DSG, my understanding is that Herman is not claiming that it is an absolute certainty that the Abhidhamma was not recited at the First Council. He is claiming that the degree of scholarly agreement is such that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent to that proposition. By implication, those who dissent from the proposition are, in Herman's opinion, doing so contrary to the balance of evidence. Were archaeologists to excavate the site of the First Council and discover tablets indicating that Abhidhamma was indeed recited at the First Council, Herman would review his factual assessment accordingly. That is how I understand the state of play. From the scientific point of view, I have no issue with the above approach except to add an important caveat. Gould's many books stand testament to the fact that, in the history of science, there have been many periods when the available evidence has compelled acceptance of what subsequently turned out to be a falsehood. This is always a sobering possibility to be kept in mind. But there is one more crucial question here. Did the Buddha teach that followers should approach Dhamma in this scientific way? In the Kalama Sutta, what did the Buddha mean when he said that people should not accept something "because it is a product of mere reasoning … because of a superficial assessment of the facts, or because it conforms with one's preconceived notions"(Harvey p. 30)? Could it not be argued that Gould's method of ascertaining facts – when applied to facts like whether or not an historical event occurred – is a product of mere reasoning? According to Harvey, the Kalama Sutta is addressed to the Dhamma and the Buddha is telling us to base our views on "the examination and analysis of actual experience". If Harvey is right (and I believe he is), the Kalama Sutta is not relevant to a question like "was the Abhidhamma recited at the First Council?" The sutta is, however, extremely relevant to the question "is the Abhidhamma correct?" That question can be tested against actual experience. And as the actual experience of person A is separate from the actual experience of person B, all A and B can exchange is a personal account of their experience. What advice did the Buddha give on how we should go about exchanging our personal accounts? In the Aranavibhanga Sutta (The Exposition of Non-Conflict), the Buddha addressed the bhikkhus thus (Bh. Bodhi & Bh. Nanamoli transl): "One should know what it is to extol and what it is to disparage, and knowing both, one should neither extol nor disparage but should teach only the Dhamma." This is all very well but it seems to require an understanding of what the Dhamma is. However, the Buddha goes on to explain that he is talking about a manner of expression. Saying the following is disparaging: "all those who have not abandoned the fetter of being … have entered upon the wrong way." Teaching only the Dhamma, a bhikkhu says instead: "as long as the fetter of being is unabandoned, being too is unabandoned." As an example of a modern day teaching by a bhikkhu that is full of disparaging language, I invite you to read Bhikkhu Sujata's article "The Mystique of the Abhidhamma" recently discussed on DSG. In the Aranavibhanga Sutta, it is also interesting to note that the Buddha says not to use covert speech at all and not to use overt sharp speech. I am not sure, but I assume covert speech is sarcastic speech and speech with double meanings. I am clearly not blameless in this regard as I have posted sarcastic speech on DSG. Some of my speech has probably also been sharp. I need to be more mindful of that. In conclusion, it therefore seems to me that disputation about whether the Buddha taught Abhidhamma is peripheral to the real meat of Dhamma, whether one calls it "practice" or "understanding realities now". On DSG, we should be exchanging views we have formed from analyzing and examining actual experience. We should not expect others to identify with those views and we certainly should not become sarcastic and sharp with our speech when we find others unimpressed with our outlook. This is particularly so with peripheral academic topics like "was the Abhidhamma recited at the First Council". Finally, I want to express my view (based on my own experience of reality) that approaching the Dhamma with trustful confidence (saddha) seems to encourage continued interest in Dhamma, more so than taking a strictly scientific approach of what is empirically proven by others and what is not. With best wishes to all Andrew T 36240 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:07am Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner7-Introduction(d) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Introduction [contd] ***** Citta and its accompanying cetasikas are closely associated and they condition one another. There is a relationship and interdependence between them. Citta conditions cetasikas. When the citta is wholesome, kusala, all accompanying cetasikas are also kusala, even those kinds of cetasikas which can arise with each type of citta. When the citta is unwholesome, akusala, all the accompanying cetasikas are akusala. Feeling, for example, is a cetasika which accompanies each citta. When there is pleasant feeling, it can accompany kusala citta or akusala citta rooted in attachment, but its quality is different in each case. Cetasikas condition the citta they accompany, and the cetasikas which arise together also condition one another. For example, the cetasika understanding, panna, conditions the citta and the other cetasikas it accompanies. When the citta with generosity is accompanied by panna which realizes that generosity is kusala, the degree of kusala is higher than in the case of kusala citta without panna. When there is generosity, there is no person who is generous, generosity is a cetasika performing its function while it assists the kusala citta. When there is attachment, there is no person who is attached, attachment is a cetasika performing its function. The cetasikas which accompany the citta experience the same object as the citta while they each perform their own function. At one moment there can be attachment to colour which is experienced through the eye-door, at another moment there can be attachment to sound which is experienced through the ear-door, at another moment there can be attachment to the concept of a person which is an object experienced through the mind-door. Citta and its accompanying cetasikas arise and fall away extremely rapidly. When right understanding has not been developed we cannot distinguish between different objects experienced through the different doorways. We are inclined to join different realities together into a 'whole", and thus we cannot realize their arising and falling away, their impermanence, and their nature of non-self. Through the study of the Buddhist teachings there can first be more understanding of the true nature of realities on the theoretical level. Only through the development of direct understanding of realities one will know the truth through one's own experience. ***** [Introduction to be continued] Metta, Sarah ====== 36241 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] transgressions, Phil Hello Phil, Thank you for your post. I just have a remark on right view. op 10-09-2004 00:18 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > You taught me recently that panna, right wisdom such as it were, is > included in right view. There is right view that can be understand > intellectually, and then there is this deeper right view, panna, that comes > from seeing realities through the six doors. That has not often arisun yet. N: Right view, sammaa di.t.thi, is pañña cetasika, but it is used mostly in the context of the Path factors. The Path facor right view is more than just intellectual understanding. When the foundation of intellectual understanding is firm there are conditions for a beginning of direct understanding, another level of pañña, as you know. This can be gradually developed, by being aware of dhammas as they appear through the six doors. Nina. 36242 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:56am Subject: The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no 11 The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no 11 Sutta: ***** The Commentary elaborates on the simile of the strong man who takes a weaker man by his shoulders and head and presses his throat tightly so that he becomes frightened and eventually dies. Evenso is the bhikkhu like a wrestler who opposes his unwholesome thoughts. He can abandon them by applying great effort. The Commentary then refers to a text about the Bodhisatta¹s supreme effort before he attained Buddhahood. When he sat down under the Bodhi-tree he said: He would not leave his seat until he had reached Buddhahood. N: We read in the Middle Length Sayings, no 36, the Greater Discourse to Saccaka, that the Buddha spoke about his ascetical practices before he became the Sammasambuddha. He said to Aggivessana: He said that while he was doing so sweat poured from his armpits. The Commentary to the Greater Discourse to Saccaka, (partly rendered by Ven. Bodhi) gives the reasons for the Bodhisatta¹s austerities before his enlightenment: to show his own exertion to the world, because the quality of invincible energy gave him joy. And also out of compassion for later generations, by inspiring them to strive with the same determination that he applied to attain Buddhahood. N: The clenching of the teeth shows the Bodhisatta¹s supreme effort, but this was accompanied by paññaa of a high degree. The bhikkhu referred to in the who has to abandon his unwholesome thoughts is on the way to arahatship. This cannot be attained without right effort which has to be accompanied by paññaa. As we read in this sutta, quoted above, he should restrain, subdue and beat down the (evil) mind by the (good) mind. If someone just clenches his teeth with dispair or fear because he does not want to have unwholesome thoughts, it is not the right effort that must be accompanied by paññaa. ***** Nina. 36243 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:56am Subject: Perversions Hi Sarah and all, I found more material, Patisambidhamagga, Ch VIII (p. 277). We also talked about it long ago. I have the Thai Co which I only partly understand. It brings us back to the child, villager and money changer who see a coin, as a simile. But now it refers to the degree of ignorance. Sañña is the weakest perversion, citta is less weak and wrong view, ditthi is the strongest. I need more time for this co. Also see the Netti, the Guide: p. 117-119.And Vis. 545, 546. This is difficult because we have to understand the four kinds of nutrition. These are also explained in the Co. to the Sammaditthi sutta. Thus, quite a study. Perhaps Rob K or others can help. Nina. 36244 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:55am Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) [Phil] Dear Dan, Herman and others, Would like to add my 2-cents worth here, but firstly, to Dan....... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Herman, > Thanks for you kind greetings. It's nice to be back, but I'm again > realizing the time sink that dsg is and why I tend to just pop in and > then out again after awhile... This time, though, I intend to stay > awhile. > I'm curious to know what you mean by 'the time sink that dsg is..' > I must say that your comments on Pali ring true. I'd add that even > within the suttas themselves, the meanings of words vary > tremendously, depending on context (e.g., dukkha, pañña, etc.). In > the commentaries we see a proliferation of words as more and more > detail is added to the descriptions. I also agree that modern English > is capable of expressing far more nuance than Pali. However, the Pali > expresses in single words some concepts that are just plain alien to > English tradition. English explanations require tomes to express > these concepts because the language has no experience with them and > no words that point to them. Which words to use then? Pali, but > augmented with tomes of nuanced English to explain what you mean by > each word. > Azita: IMO, I think that the use of Pali, when it comes to talking about realities, is of utmost importance. My conceptual understanding of citta, at the pariyatti level, is much more precise than the word consciousness. I know it can be a case of 'splitting hairs' but citta indicates to me a very momentary event whereas consciousness has other meanings. As a nurse, consciousness can mean many things to me, whereas Citta is precise. And how do we translate Cetasika? Well for me who has trouble with very basic english :-) trying to describe cetasikas to someone....its just easier to use cetasika. I think of this Dhamma study as a completly new topic as if I am learning a new career all over again and I have to learn new concepts first before they can be put into practice, so to speak. So, in conclusion, I'll just reiterate your comment that: "...we > should never imagine that it is possible to capture experience in > words, of any language. But we can, and should be, mindful of our > constant efforts to do so." > Azita: Not only to do so in any language, but to try and capture the experience! > Kind Regards (or 'metta' in Pali), > > Dan Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 36245 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi Herman > Isn't a greater danger getting caught up in doubt that prevents you from > remaining open to the Buddha's teaching, or that can lead you speaking > in a > way that could be seen as creating divisions? > > ================= > H > Thank you very much for speaking honestly with me. I value that > highly. Ph: I noticed! (wink) Certainly honesty is good. Also at times renouncing one' s opinion is good. More middle way stuff. > Let me ask you some questions. In terms of the present moment, how do > the bona fides of the authors whose thoughts you are repeating figure? > Is a teaching good or useful or true because of who is teaching it? Or > is a teaching good or useful or true because it accurately models what > happens or can happen? Ph: For me, I measure it in terms of impact on my life. A reduction in anger is the main result for me. There are subtler changes I can't put my finger on as easily. Before coming across Abdhidhamma I would read of metta and read of "now wild words shall pass my lips," and the material in Dhammapada about anger and I would make vows, based on wanting to develop an ideal self, and see the project crumble. Abhidhamma, and Nina's books, and discussions here (especially one memorable post from Sarah that made me see that a lack of right understanding was at the heart of my anger) have given me something much more lasting. And Abhidhamma has laid the path to understanding anatta before my eyes. Now when I read suttas, I can appreciate them more deeply. I'm very excited about reading BB's Samyutta Nikaya anthology in the new year. So for me what I've learned here, through books and discussions, and reading suttas in the light of what I've learned her, help me understand what happens - definitely. > H :> I am very open to the teachings of the Buddha, because I find they > liberate from suffering. And I also have a critical faculty that > understands that people look for external authority, through which fact > one discarded view will be rapidly replaced with another. > Ph: I'm with you there. I appreciated your reference to Christian fundamentalism America. Now *that* is dangerous. People turn over any sense of self-respnsibility. There is talk of no control, no self, in Buddhism, but paradoxically we know there is great self-resonsibility. "Rely on yourself," I think the Buddha said. Anything we gain from the Buddha's teaching can only be verified through examining our own experience. (Alas, here in Japan, many folk versions of Buddhism are prevalent in which the Buddha is perceived as a deity who intercedes and dishes out blessings. There is this need for people to turn to external authority, to a deity. That is the kind of regression a person like yourself with critical faculties can be on the lookout for in Dhamma. But I don't see devotees of Abdhidhamma in this light and I still don't really understand why you do. Though I am probably missing your point - not trying hard. Sorry. Just home from work, and I'm kind of lazy about discussing intellectual topics like this. > > P > Why not remember that people are the owners of their kamma, and > respond or don't respond to the Buddha's teaching according to > accumulations? And believe what they will or won't according to > accumulations. > > > ============================ > H > Again, some questions if I may? How do these views, and further down > the page, accord with your experience? If your experience is that > nothing can be done, why stand in front of a classroom and teach? If > your experience is that you can do things that influence the course of > events, why parrot views that are not your experience? Ph: This is my experience. I get up and teach the same things hudnreds of times, knowing that the students won't use what I teach them. They have accumulations that my teaching won't overcome. In TESL, we call this "fossilized language." Their language runs in grooves that will never be ungrooved. This doesn't apply to beginners. And it may be a Japanese thing. Certainly northern Europeans come to speak splendid English. (And write books in it!) But I continue teaching in order to practice Brahma-Viharas and put some bread on the table. I am a friendly and patient teacher but I have no hopes of any but a few peculiar students becoming proficient in English because of my lessons. I also have come to understand that a sense of calm and well-being that I can share with students thanks to BVs will not last long. It is just temporary. Condiitons will arise in an unpredictable way and wash that well being away. My gosh, anyone's experience can confirm that. Can you hold on to happiness? Of course not. That is my experience. Anyone's experience. It is found in the Buddha's teaching, of course. > P > There's nothing you can do to change their view in a real way > compared to the amount of mental energy that must be expended in the > attempt, which must only feed everyone's restlessness, and possibly > even > ill-will, which are hindrances. > > ================ > > H > I'd say I post emails that give rise to ill-will all the time. > People are very attached to their views, you know, the more baseless the > greater the attachment (of necessity). Ph: Yes, if people feel ill-will, so be it. People are certainly attached to wthier opinions. WHy do you want to be? I feel one aspect of liberation will be becoming detached from opinions. I've never had strong ones, and now they're getting weaker and weaker. "The Buddha made a point of avoiding useless discussions", or words to that effect. I read that somewhere. The Buddha would know when there was no point in continuing a discussion. It would seem to me that trying to convince someone that their view is wrong is almost always in vain. A pointless discussion. Just solidifying and hardening your own views. I think right views are never hardened. That's the middle way. > ================== > P > (You posted some e-mails yesterday which > gave rise to ill-will in those who read them, I'd say.) > > =================== > > H > If you care to be more specific, I will be happy to address it. Like > you, I am not a trigger-happy blithering idiot, and I do consider what I > say before I say it. > Ph: No need for that. Clearly you think about what you say. I'm the blitherer. > > > P > If we learn to accept others' views as beyond our control we can > relax and devote ourselves to what we believe to be the true Dhamma. > That's what I do - most of the time except right now, for example! :) > You might say that it is dangerous to let what one considers wrong view > to > prevail, but remember the context. It's not like those of us who take > the > Abhidhamma to be the Buddha's most refined teaching are running rampant > in > the streets, burning copies of Bhikkhu Bodhi's wonderful sutta > anthologies! > Why not let us have our cetasikas in peace! > > =================== > H > Am I spoiling your lobha ? :-) Ph: Not yet. But I suppose if the Cetasika study corner turned out to be constantly dealing with discussion about whether "Cetasikas" involves the Buddha's teaching or not it would become tiresome and I worry a bit that some people whose wisdom I value greatly would give up on it out of debate fatigue and no longer participate at DSG. My reason for posting this was quite selfish actually, in that respect. But of course there is no way to control what people will say or do. > I encourage you to compare what Abhidhamma you have osmosed with the > dhatuvibhangasutta. > > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/majjhima/140-dhatuvibhanga-e.htm > > I appreciate your honesty Phil. You are a true friend. Thanks Herman. I won't bug you anymore. I've had my say. Metta, Phil 36246 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Deeds of Merit - only one way to decrease defilements Hi Antony It's always good to hear from you. I hope you've been feeling well. Thanks for the interesting links. They will help me to recognize opportunities for wholesome deeds. Metta, Phil >> Dear Phil, Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote: . (snip) for the whole essay: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel259.html Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote: "...when the Buddha talked about the forms of merit, he > said, "Don't be afraid of merit, for merit is another word for happiness." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dana-giving/message/1 with metta / Antony. 36247 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner7-Introduction(d) Hello all Suddenly I'm all confused. But seeing how confused I am is good. No need to panic about it. When I've read about these things they make so much sense, but if I try to write down what I understand, there is a mess. > When the citta is wholesome, >kusala, all accompanying cetasikas are also kusala, If the kusala citta is kusala vipaka, a resultant of kusala kamma, all accompanying cetasikas will be kusala, and therefore in a sense will also be resultant of that kusala kamma, right? Do we say vipaka cetasika? The above passage is referring to just one mental state, one citta with accompanying cetasikas. In the next mental state, will it be one more citta with another set of accompanying cittas, also kusala, conditioned by the mental state that just fell away? Will that be vipaka too? At some point lobha may arise. Will arise. Is this after many cittas have risen and fallen away conditoning one another? Or is there one sense-door citta and accompanying cetasikas followed by one mind-door citta and accompanying cetasikas, and then lobha or dosa arising because of accumulations in the mind-door citta? When lobha arises, does it arise as cetasika plus universal cetasikas plus one or more particular cetasikas plus lobha? And then fall away, and rise again immediately in a way that makes us feel we have a continuous feeling? I am rereading ADL to try to figure this sort of thing out, but am currently in the later chapters. It is time to go back to the beginning. But perhaps an answer here will help drive it home the way I've alread had some points clearly driven home here. Sorry if I'm getting ahead of things here. Many thanks in advance Metta Phil 36248 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: Hi Phil, Thanks for sitting the citta test. You wrote: -------------- > My first impulse is to say C. Yes, B looks good. The" internal sense-fields" and the "classes of consciousness" would be nama. The "external sense field" (object) would be rupa. Nama (ie citta) is that which experiences, rupa (object) is that which is experienced. For what it's worth, I go with B. ---------------- Although I can't argue with any part of your answer, it wasn't the answer I was looking for. When I asked what you understood by, "Citta experiences an object," I was really looking for the meaning of citta. Let me rephrase the question: Is citta inseparable from the experience-er, the experience-ing and the experience-ed (combined as an event)? (Herman and Howard chose this answer.) Is it just the experience-ing and there is no experience-er? (Dan opted for this one.) Is it the experience-er as distinct from the experience-ing, the latter being a separate dhamma? (You and I liked the sound of this but not enough to vote for it.) Or is it none of the above? (I voted for this one). My understanding was (and still is) that citta is the experience-er and that the experience-ing is not a separate dhamma but a function of the same experience-er. If I am right, you and Dan sneak through with a pass minus. Herman and Howard get an F because they had the audacity to say I was wrong. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 36249 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] CSC4-Introduction(a) [Howard: "No, no!"] Dear Howard (and Herman, Nina, et al.), Yes, yes. Confusing language should surely be seen as confusing. Let's work an example. Suppose someone says, "citta cognizes an object." It's easy to object: "Hold on, pardner! The language here clearly implies a subject." What goes unsaid is that that subject has such a 'noun' feel to it. What kind of noun? A concrete noun? Couldn't be! Because citta would be a rupa then. An abstract noun? Couldn't be! Because citta would then have to be a concept. Neither of those descriptions match with our experience and understanding of the distinction between nama and rupa. 'Citta' has much more of a verb-like feel to it because the activity of citta is so intense and rapid, while the activity of rupa is non-existent. At moments when the distinction between nama and rupa is clear, citta may appear as sheer activity, while rupa is entirely non-active. Hearing "citta" used as noun then grates on the ears. Must it? I don't think so. It does mean extending our notion of noun to include 'nama,' which is unlike any noun we ever encounter in our everyday life. Alternatively, we could extend our notion of 'verb' to include activities like "citta" (a noun, in Pali) that don't have a subject that is distinct from the activity. With the understanding of citta as an extended noun (as opposed to a concrete or abstract noun), things like "Citta cognizes an object" sound fine. With the understanding of 'citta' as an extended verb, "citta is the cognizing of an object" is not a problem. Because of deficiencies of the English language to adequately express the distinction between nama and rupa so succinctly, neither of these is entirely adequate. So what? A big danger is to get so hung up on the language that we cringe when we hear formulations of citta that sound too noun-ish (which is what I sometimes do) or we develop elaborate and dubious theories of reality to match our understanding of the language (e.g., arguing that because the conventional notion of 'subject' in a sentence doesn't adequately reflect what we observe as 'citta', the notion of 'object' must be bunk). The sentence "citta cognizes an object" is certainly confusing if you want citta to be a concrete noun or an abstract. Let's make it a verb- noun (or "nama") instead. The sentence "citta is the cognizing of an object" is likewise confusing if we assume that the cognizing must be done by a 'subject' (in the conventional sense). Let's make the 'cognizing' a subject-verb (or "nama") instead. Either way gets us out of the language trap that leads to proliferation of theory and clouding of vision. > Howard: > Well, if you "cringe" at it because you see how it could be > misleading, that is no "crime". It is far better than being taken in by it! Moreover, to > cringe at it in the sense of having concern that some people might be fooled > by it is good, being a matter of compassion rather than aversion. If we cringe when we see how a little piece of language could mislead someone, we'll have a life of cringing and frustration -- not very enlightening! As for fearing "being taken in by it," Narada Mahathera classes "Permanent Scepticism" (niyata micchaadi.t.ti) in with the Weighty Kammas (viz. creation of schism in the Sangha, wounding of a Buddha, murder of an arahant, matricide, parricide) [Manual of Abhidhamma, p. 260]. Fine to be skeptical, but it is also important to be mindful of where the skepticism is leading. Metta galore, Dan 36250 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] CSS4-Introduction(a) [Howard: "...no object of experience." You write: "There can be no expectation of perfect formulation. It is simply a truism that clearer language, language that communicates more truly, is more useful than less adequate language." Despite being Mr. Skeptical and Mr. Contrarian, I can't disagree with that. But it begs the question, "Adequate for what?" The sentence "citta cognizes an object" is designed to de-personalize the nama by making it something other than the big "I". The citta runs by very fast, it grasps one object and then it's gone; immediately, another citta arises to grasp another object and just as quickly, it too passes. On and on. Anicca, anicca. No room for a big "I". That's useful language isn't it? Metaphorical to be sure, but surely it is useful. Dan 36251 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:08am Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner7-Introduction(d) Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > > When the citta is wholesome, > >kusala, all accompanying cetasikas are also kusala, > > If the kusala citta is kusala vipaka, a resultant of kusala kamma, all > accompanying cetasikas will be kusala, and therefore in a sense will also be > resultant of that kusala kamma, right? Do we say vipaka cetasika? ===== Let's take a step back here. A "kusala" mental state is wholesome, it has wholesome roots of non-attachment (alobha) and non-aversion (adosa). The citta (consciousness) and the various associated mental factors (cetasikas) are all wholesome. For example, the contact cetasika (phassa) in this mental state is wholesome. Now let's talk about a kusala eye consciousness mental state. This is a kusala vipaka mental state. This mental state is not wholesome; it does not have any wholesome roots (i.e. no alobha, no adosa). These mental states are rootless and are of indeterminate ethical value (avyakata); not wholesome, not unwholesome. The contact cetasika (phassa) in the kusala eye consciousness mental state is indeterminate. So what is so "kusala" about a kusala eye consciousness mental state? In this case, the term "kusala" just refers to the ethical quality of mental state for which this mental state is the resultant. In other words, a kusala mental state is ethically wholesome and this mental state creates kamma (technically the volition/cetana cetasika creates the kamma). The resultant of this kusala mental state inherits the name "kusala" but it is ethically indeterminate. ===== > The above passage is referring to just one mental state, one citta with > accompanying cetasikas. > In the next mental state, will it be one more citta with another set of > accompanying cittas, also kusala, conditioned by the mental state that just > fell away? Will that be vipaka too? ===== Citta-niyama (the laws of nature as they relate to citta) determine what kind of mental state will arise when a specific mental state falls away. For example, when a determining (votthapana) mental state falls away, there will always be a javana mental state which arises next (this is according to citta-niyama). The determining mental state is indeterminate but the javana mental state creates kamma. There are many factors which determine which type of javana mental state (i.e. kusala or akusala) arise (i.e. accumulations, etc.). ===== > At some point lobha may arise. Will > arise. Is this after many cittas have risen and fallen away conditoning one > another? Or is there one sense-door citta and accompanying cetasikas > followed by one mind-door citta and accompanying cetasikas, and then lobha > or dosa arising because of accumulations in the mind-door citta? When lobha > arises, does it arise as cetasika plus universal cetasikas plus one or more > particular cetasikas plus lobha? And then fall away, and rise again > immediately in a way that makes us feel we have a continuous feeling? ===== Lobha arises in a javana mental state. You are correct that accumulations (i.e. craving) are one of the conditions causing lobha (clining) to arise. Javana mental states arise as determined by citta-niyama. ===== > I am rereading ADL to try to figure this sort of thing out, but am > currently in the later chapters. It is time to go back to the beginning. > But perhaps an answer here will help drive it home the way I've alread had > some points clearly driven home here. Sorry if I'm getting ahead of things > here. Hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 36252 From: Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi, Ken (and Phil, and all) - In a message dated 9/10/04 8:45:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Although I can't argue with any part of your answer, it wasn't the > answer I was looking for. When I asked what you understood > by, "Citta experiences an object," I was really looking for the > meaning of citta. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Now I'm really becoming confused. Originally I thought you were asking about how best to characterize experience. My first response, based on understanding your question in that way was "As you might suspect, I like C the least - I think it is a terrible choice! ;-) What I find the most interesting is your having D as primary choice, and, indeed, I think that choice D is, itself, very interesting. Care to say anything more about D?" Then, based on Herman's reply, I assumed I misunderstood you, and that you really didn't want to know how to characterize experience but to understand "... what the statement 'Citta experiences an object' means!" In that case, I went on to reply as follows: "Actually, I think that is a statement that should not be made!! You [Herman] are correct: On the basis of our language use, it says there is some thing, citta, some thing, the object, and a relation holding between them. The citta is an experiencer, the object the experienced, and the experiencing the relation, making C the closest to describing the meaning. And that is indeed why this is a bad statement." Now it appears that maybe my original understanding of your question was correct, because you say now that you were "really looking for the meaning of citta." ------------------------------------------------------- > > Let me rephrase the question: > > Is citta inseparable from the experience-er, the experience-ing and > the experience-ed (combined as an event)? (Herman and Howard chose > this answer.) > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: If, as I now suspect, you are asking about the nature of experience, as it is, and not asking about how certain language is used, then I must say that I certainly do NOT choose the above answer, C, because it presupposes entities that I do not accept. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Is it just the experience-ing and there is no experience-er? (Dan > opted for this one.) > > Is it the experience-er as distinct from the experience-ing, the > latter being a separate dhamma? (You and I liked the sound of > this but not enough to vote for it.) > > Or is it none of the above? (I voted for this one). > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It is "none of the above" because there is no experiencer! There is just the arising of experiential content. The notion of "experiencer" is atta view. ------------------------------------------------------- > > My understanding was (and still is) that citta is the experience-er > and that the experience-ing is not a separate dhamma but a function > of the same experience-er. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Here you countenance an "experiencer" which has the function of experiencing. This is quintessential atta view, roundly dismissed by the Buddha and by Buddhaghosa (and Nagarjuna, and a host of others) after him. -------------------------------------------------------- > > If I am right, you and Dan sneak through with a pass minus. Herman > and Howard get an F because they had the audacity to say I was > wrong. > > -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Make it not just an F for me, but an unconditional expulsion from the course with reregistering prohibited! I, indeed, say you are totally wrong on this one, Ken. :-) =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36253 From: Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] CSS4-Introduction(a) [Howard: "...no object of experience." Hi, Dan - In a message dated 9/10/04 9:11:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@y... writes: > You write: "There can be no expectation of perfect formulation. It is > simply a truism that clearer language, language that communicates > more truly, is more useful than less adequate language." > > Despite being Mr. Skeptical and Mr. Contrarian, I can't disagree with > that. But it begs the question, "Adequate for what?" The > sentence "citta cognizes an object" is designed to de-personalize the > nama by making it something other than the big "I". The citta runs by > very fast, it grasps one object and then it's gone; immediately, > another citta arises to grasp another object and just as quickly, it > too passes. On and on. Anicca, anicca. No room for a big "I". That's > useful language isn't it? Metaphorical to be sure, but surely it is > useful. > > Dan > ============================= There are degrees to things. Certainly "Citta cognizes an object" is superior to "I cognize an object" but it is still inadequate. Inadequate for what, you ask? Inadequate for clear understanding. Yes, there is some usefulness to the formulation - and some danger as well. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36254 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:10am Subject: Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Dear Nina, So much of the dsg struggle is directed toward ways to adequately describe various aspects of Dhamma. Because Dhamma is such a different way of thinking about the world than we encounter in everyday life, it tends to be quite difficult to discuss clearly. "Citta" is a fundamental idea in Theravada, and it is difficult to express what citta is in a way that does not lead to error. Sometimes I cringe at the formulation "citta cognizes an object" or "seeing sees" because the distinguishing characteristic of citta is its sheer activity (as opposed to the non-activity of the rupa), but the noun-verb-object formulation somewhat over emphasizes a "being" aspect of citta. This shouldn't matter. The formulation of citta as sheer activity overly emphasizes the non-being aspect of citta -- even to the point where it can lead into the language trap of "No subject? Then, no object either." Neither formulation is right for all purposes, but both serve useful functions in describing the nature of citta. It is madness to cling so strongly to one formulation or another that one ends up verbally assaulting someone who uses another formulation, as I did to you some time ago. I apologize. > When insight has developed and dhammas are directly experienced, no words > are needed. Needed for what? I don't understand. Words are surely needed to describe the experience to others and for helping clarify the words in the tipitaka. In addition, wrestling with words helps bring the experience into the proper location in the vast net of words and ideas of the teachings, thus making more comprehensible the words that describe insights not yet experienced. > You said that you find it so difficult to understand citta: same, same for > all of us. Yes. Just look at the matika of the Dhammasangani! So many distinctions between cittas that only an arahant could comprehend... Struggling with citta is a long-term project. > If I remember correctly, you were also present at the short visit with A. > Sujin up North (her Alaska trip) when Jim was there? About three years ago. I did meet Sujin and Jim (and Amara) in Niagara about three years ago. We talked for about 2 hours. Sujin's voice was so quiet, and we were sitting so close together and Jim so far away that I don't think he heard much of our conversation. > How did it come over to you what she said? She may have talked about seeing > now. Was it strange to you? I don't recall her talking about seeing. She knocked on the table and asked whether hardness was light or dark. She said lobha was a great teacher -- so easy to follow. > By talking about seeing, people may be drawn just for a moment to pay > attention to seeing or to what appears through the eyes. Just a very short > moment, but this can be accumulated. This is a way to begin to understand > what citta is, citta is nama, and I do not dare to say to you: it > experiences. But if we gain right understanding we do not fall over words > like *it*. When there can be direct awareness and understanding, we are no > longer tricked by experiencers, subject, little selves, etc. It actually > depends on sati-sampajañña whether we can cross the border of > intellectualizing, reasoning, being misled by the choice of words. I agree. Now, how to express "citta" in a way that guarantees that no one who hears it will be misled by experiencers, subjects, and little selves? Can't be done. Once again, I apologize for earlier (two years ago? or only one year ago?) demanding that you do so. > > Dan: The seeing-onsciousness is simply the registering of a visual object in the > > mind. > N: I would not say: in the mind. Then again we have something that lasts. > Whereas mind is ephemeral, impermanent. It is citta. Yup, that's exactly right. So the struggle for proper linguistic formulation of "citta" in English continues... > The first stage of tender insight is knowing nama as nama and rupa as rupa > and then we begin to understand what anatta really is. The first stage of > principal insight is directly understanding the arising and falling away of > nama and rupa. Then there will be more understanding that what is > impermanent cannot be self. How could there be a self in what arises and > then falls away immediately? There cannot be. That is why the linguistically troublesome expression "citta experiences object" is not such a big problem, Dhammically speaking. > Thus I would say: The seeing-consciousness is simply the experience of > visual object. And leave out: in the mind. Yup. I'd add that the "in the mind" is a potentially confusing redundancy. > I am disinclined to the word > registering, because I think seeing is such a direct experience: visible > object impinges on eyesense, the eyebase, and this conditions seeing. I cringed when I wrote "registering" because the word is clearly not adequate for describing seeing-consciousness. > D:The lobha-rooted cittas are the experiencings (cittas) of > > objects (thoughts), colored by different shades (cetasikas) such as > > pleasant feeling (vedana), desire for more pleasure (lobha), and the > > yabbut of 'I like this' (ditthi). > N: Colored by different shades may be confusing, I think. Yup. I'd say that it is certainly confusing in some senses. But it also can be helpful in pointing to distinctions between citta and cetasika -- not perfect, but possibly helpful for some. > What about > conditions? They are conditioned by pleasant feeling, etc. And this is > mutual, the feeling is conditioned by the lobha. They all influence each > other. I don't quite see how the 'colors' metaphor clouds vision of conditions. Can you expand on this? Thanks, Nina. Mudita, Dan 36255 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] CSC4-Introduction(a) [Herman: "rules of language"] Dear Herman, Great to see you again. Just a quick comment or two because I'm very much pressed for time now... Herman: "So I'm with Howard on this one, and say that precision is the order of the day." Is it too late to say, "I'm with Howard too"? If not, then consider it said by me. Now, how can we *precisely* express "citta" in English? Certainly not by Ken's A, B, or C. But I don't see any good alternatives (although the subject-verb-object and the verb-object are clearly more in line with Buddha's teachings than is the verb- NoObject). Dan 36256 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:19am Subject: Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) [Azita] Dear Azita, Good to see you again! Just a few very quick responses to your comments > I'm curious to know what you mean by 'the time sink that dsg > is..' It takes a lot of time to read posts, consider, and respond, so I end up sinking a lot of time into dsg when I am active here. With so many other responsibilities, it is hard to keep going. > > Azita: IMO, I think that the use of Pali, when it comes to talking > about realities, is of utmost importance. My conceptual > understanding of citta, at the pariyatti level, is much more precise > than the word consciousness. I know it can be a case of 'splitting > hairs' but citta indicates to me a very momentary event whereas > consciousness has other meanings. As a nurse, consciousness can mean > many things to me, whereas Citta is precise. > And how do we translate Cetasika? Well for me who has trouble > with very basic english :-) trying to describe cetasikas to > someone....its just easier to use cetasika. > I think of this Dhamma study as a completly new topic as if I > am learning a new career all over again and I have to learn new > concepts first before they can be put into practice, so to speak. Well said! Thanks. > So, in conclusion, I'll just reiterate your comment that: "...we > > should never imagine that it is possible to capture experience in > > words, of any language. But we can, and should be, mindful of our > > constant efforts to do so." > > > > Azita: Not only to do so in any language, but to try and capture > the experience! Not easy, but a good thing to do. Metta, Dan 36257 From: Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] CSC4-Introduction(a) [Herman: "rules of language"] Hi, Dan (and Herman, and all) - In a message dated 9/10/04 10:17:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@y... writes: > > Dear Herman, > Great to see you again. Just a quick comment or two because I'm very > much pressed for time now... > > Herman: "So I'm with Howard on this one, and say that precision is > the order of the day." > > Is it too late to say, "I'm with Howard too"? If not, then consider > it said by me. ------------------------------------------- Howard: :-) ------------------------------------------- > Now, how can we *precisely* express "citta" in > English? Certainly not by Ken's A, B, or C. But I don't see any good > alternatives (although the subject-verb-object and the verb-object > are clearly more in line with Buddha's teachings than is the verb- > NoObject). -------------------------------------------------- Howard: We cannot express "citta" with perfect precision in any language. We just cannot. We can only take our best shot, by using several alternative formulations, explanations, and paraphrases plus heavy use of quotation marks and disclaimer after disclaimer after disclaimer. This entire thread amounts to one big explanation and disclaimer. Just one thing I think is critically important to emphasize with regard to any discussion by Buddhists: Whatever the topic, whether it be citta or anything else, emptiness is preeminent, and it must always be placed at the fore. By "emptiness", I mean impersonality and non-agency, dependency, corelessness, insubstantiality, impermanence, and unworthiness of being clung to (and the futility of clinging). ---------------------------------------------------- > > Dan > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36258 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:18am Subject: Re: Rob M'sTheory Behind The Buddha's Smile ( 04 ) by Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > HI Htoo, > > I am confused. > > Clearly, you had been able to view the file for the first three sets > of comments. What has changed? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Rob M, Thanks for your reply. Could you please tell me how to save? SO that I can read even if I am not on line. Htoo Naing 36259 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Deeds of Merit - only one way to decrease defilements Hello all, Here are a few more colourful and inspiring passages from Bhikkhu Bodhi's essay on merit: "But while merit (punna) and knowledge (nana) thus occupy coordinate positions, it is merit that claims priority from the standpoint of spiritual dynamics. The reason is that works of merit come first in the process of inner growth. If knowledge be the flower that gives birth to the fruit of liberation, and faith (saddha) the seed out of which the flower unfolds, then merit is the soil, water and fertilizer all in one -- the indispensable nutriment for every stage of growth. Merit paves the way for knowledge, and finds in knowledge the sanction for its own claim to a place in the system of Buddhist training..." and "The achievement of such a purification of our inward being (note: i.e nibbana) is the work of merit. Merit scours the mind of the coarser defilements, attenuates the grip of the unwholesome roots, and fortifies the productive power of the wholesome, beneficial states. Through its cumulative force it provides the foundation for wisdom's final breakthrough to the unconditioned. It is the fuel, so to speak, for the ascent of wisdom from the mundane to the supramundane. Just as the initial stages of a lunar rocket work up the momentum that enables the uppermost stage to break the gravitational pull of the earth and reach the moon, so does merit give to the spiritual life that forward thrust that will propel the wisdom-faculty past the gravitational pull of the mundane order and permit it to penetrate the transcendental truth." Ph: Interesting. I've always assumed that it would be panna that provides the final liberation from samsara's orbit, so to speak. The propelling force from merit, helping panna to .... I don't know enough about rocket ships, or about panna, to know where panna would fit in this analogy! But it's a nice one to read in the morning. Blast off! "When merit is said to "purge and purify the mental continuum," it is so described in reference to its capacity to arrest the surging tide of the defilements which threatens to sweep the mind towards the perilous deep of transgressional action. Only wisdom -- the supramundane wisdom of the noble paths -- can eradicate the defilements at the level of latency, which is necessary if the bonds of existence are to be broken and deliverance attained. But the practice of merit can contribute much towards attenuating their obsessive force and establishing a foothold for wisdom to exercise its liberating function. Wisdom can operate only upon the base of a purified mind; the accumulation of merit purifies the mind; hence merit provides the supporting condition for wisdom." Ph: This seems to support my feeling that deeds of merit would be especially helpful in eradicating coarse defilements. Very helpful essay. Thanks again, Antony. Metta, Phil > >> Dear Phil, > > Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote: > > . (snip) > > for the whole essay: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel259.html > > Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote: > > "...when the Buddha talked about the forms of merit, he > > said, "Don't be afraid of merit, for merit is another word for > happiness." > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dana-giving/message/1 > > with metta / Antony. > 36260 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:27pm Subject: Basic citta processes (was Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner7-Introduction(d)) Hi Rob Thanks for the feedback. I'll rename this thread and use it to try to solidify my grasp of basic processes. Ph> > > > > When the citta is wholesome, > > >kusala, all accompanying cetasikas are also kusala, > > > > If the kusala citta is kusala vipaka, a resultant of kusala > kamma, all > > accompanying cetasikas will be kusala, and therefore in a sense > will also be > > resultant of that kusala kamma, right? Do we say vipaka cetasika? > > ===== > R > Let's take a step back here. A "kusala" mental state is wholesome, > it has wholesome roots of non-attachment (alobha) and non-aversion > (adosa). The citta (consciousness) and the various associated mental > factors (cetasikas) are all wholesome. For example, the contact > cetasika (phassa) in this mental state is wholesome. > > Now let's talk about a kusala eye consciousness mental state. This > is a kusala vipaka mental state. This mental state is not wholesome; > it does not have any wholesome roots (i.e. no alobha, no adosa). > These mental states are rootless and are of indeterminate ethical > value (avyakata); not wholesome, not unwholesome. The contact > cetasika (phassa) in the kusala eye consciousness mental state is > indeterminate. Ph:: OK. Would the former be javana citta? Am I correct in thinking that javana is the first point at which "fresh" kusala, if you will, rather than resultant kusala appears on the scene? As we know, akusala is much more prevalent than kusala. so let's talk about that. So, if I'm correct, there is all this vipaka akusala rising, and then all this "fresh" javana akusala arising? Because of proliferation, is there always much more akusala citta produced in javanas than the akusala vipaka citta that is fed into the process? That's enough for today. I'll be rereading ADL and your book as well as asking questions here to try to figure out citta processes. I know you're busy these days. Thanks as always for your time. Metta, Phil 36261 From: Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:10pm Subject: Vism.XIV,100 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 100. III. i. A. (a) 2. But that 'with root-cause' is (42)-(49) that associated with non-greed, etc., as the cause of the result. It is of eight kinds because it is classed according to joy, etc., like the profitable of the sense sphere (1)-(8). But it does not occur with respect to the six objects38 through giving, etc., as the profitable does; for it occurs only with respect to the six objects that are included among limited states,39 as rebirth-linking, life-continuum, death, and registration. But the prompted and unprompted states should be understood here as due to the source it has come from, and so on.40 [456] And while there is no difference in the associated states, the resultant should be understood as passive like the reflection of a face in a looking-glass while the profitable is active like the face. -------------------- Note 38. 'To the six kinds of objects all classed as limited, etc., past, etc., internal, etc.' (Pm.474). Note 39. Registration consciousness does not, it is stated, occur with an object of exalted consciousness--see VbhA. 154. Note 40. ' "The source it has come from, and so on" means the source it has come from and its condition. Here, in the opinion of certain teachers the result of the unprompted profitable is unprompted and the result of the prompted is prompted, like the movement of the face's reflexion in a looking-glass when the face moves; thus it is 'due to the source it has come from.' But in the opinion of other teachers the unprompted arises due to powerful kamma as condition and the prompted does so due to weak kamma; thus it is 'due to its condition' ' (Pm.474). 36262 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:58pm Subject: Deeds of Merit - Paying respect through speech, body and mind Hello all More from "Deeds of Merit" by K Sujin available at http://www.zolag.co.uk/meri2.html Moving on to the next part of the "Sila" branch: . Paying respect ( Apacaayana.) S. : Defilements are akusala dhammas, unwholesome realities, which arise with the citta, they cause the citta to be impure. The eradication of defilements is wholesome, this causes the citta to be pure. The meritorious action which is apacaayana, that is, paying respect to those who deserve it, stems from the citta which is wholesome, kusala. We read in the Gradual Sayings ( I, Book of the Threes, Ch XV, 149, Homage): Monks, there are these three kinds of homage. What three? Homage done with body, speech and mind. These are the three.... Ph: I think I can predict what homage done with body and speech are. I wonder about homage done with mind. I'll think about that today. It must cross over with the bhavana (mental development) branch.. I think we will be reminded about how these branches (dana, sila and bhavana) grow together and support each other Metta, Phil 36263 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:53pm Subject: RE: [dsg] CSC4-Introduction(a) [Herman: "rules of language"] Hi Dan, Thanks for your comments (and those of everyone else as well). I appreciate the development of the thread. I owe a number of posts to a number of people, they are still fermenting....... as is my desire to do a number of things around the house :-) ====================== D > Now, how can we *precisely* express "citta" in English? Certainly not by Ken's A, B, or C. But I don't see any good alternatives (although the subject-verb-object and the verb-object are clearly more in line with Buddha's teachings than is the verb- NoObject). =================== This is a very good and useful question to ask. And to answer it I think it is very important to understand the "why" of expressing something, the reason for saying it. And in answering your question for themselves, the reader may well discover the perfect peace of free-range citta (as opposed to the captured kind) :-) We have all learned to think, speak and write through years and years of schooling, and it might be reasonable to say that much of what passes through our minds and mouths is automatic. We repeat what we have learnt, what we have remembered. And so often when we attempt to describe experience, we are including all sorts of material that has nothing to do with what is actually experienced, or what we actually want to convey. The grammar of language incorporates all sorts of inferences about causality and assumes all sorts of fixed elements like time and space, subjects and objects. So if we want to communicate *citta as experience only* we need to adopt a different grammar, the grammar of experience. I don't think it would look anything like the English we use. It may not even be a spoken grammar. Healthy humans can very accurately convey their emotional state or intentions to others, to the point where the experience is duplicated in the other, without the utterance of a single sound. I would typify the above *citta as experience* (or removing the redundancies leaving either just *citta* or just *experience*) as becoming. Becoming is a process, not a thing. On the other hand, *thinking about citta* is *becoming attempting to be*, or *having*. Having creates the subject - object duality. Having is all about things. Things with nature, essence, characteristics and the like. So communication about *thinking about citta* is best done in terms of process, not objects. Hope this wasn't too much of a ramble :-) Kind Regards Herman 36264 From: jwromeijn Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:24am Subject: Re: On Facts and Absolutisms --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Dear Members > > A very well-known scholar of Buddhism, Professor Peter Harvey, writes ... > In conclusion, it therefore seems to me that disputation about > whether the Buddha taught Abhidhamma is peripheral to the real meat > of Dhamma, whether one calls it "practice" or "understanding > realities now". On DSG, we should be exchanging views we have formed > from analyzing and examining actual experience. We should not expect > others to identify with those views and we certainly should not > become sarcastic and sharp with our speech when we find others > unimpressed with our outlook. This is particularly so with > peripheral academic topics like "was the Abhidhamma recited at the > First Council". > > Finally, I want to express my view (based on my own experience of > reality) that approaching the Dhamma with trustful confidence > (saddha) seems to encourage continued interest in Dhamma, more so > than taking a strictly scientific approach of what is empirically > proven by others and what is not. > > With best wishes to all > Andrew T Dear Andrew and all Thanks Andrew, for your wise words about the Abhidhamma and its history. It is important if the Buddha COULD have spoken or written "the" Abhidhamma (and I'm convinced he could), not if he has done it or if they were recited during First Council (of one of the seven books that is impossible: the Kathavatthu). But the most important today is something else and maybe that makes me sarcastic and sharp in parts of my messages. That is the lack of dynamics in Theravada, the fact that it's too less future-directed and too much past-directed; the orthodoxy that makes that most westerners interested in Buddhism prefer the Tibetan or Zen tradition or only do (vipassana-)meditation without Dhamma at all. And I'm afraid this lack on dynamcis accelerates the end of Theravada in the Asian countries too. The so called 'Commentaries' are a screen between the Tipitaka and the reception and understanding of it today; we need more modern commentaries, using MODERN METAPHORES in explaining the Dhamma, not he metaphores of the daily life millennia ago. Metta Joop 36265 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:33am Subject: 'Cetasikas' study corner8-Introduction(e) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Introduction [contd] ***** There is no abiding ego or self who can direct the operations of the mind. There is a different citta all the time and it is accompanied by different cetasikas. They arise because of their own conditions. We are so used to thinking in terms of a mind belonging to the human person. It is difficult to understand that there is no ego who can direct his mind, who can take his destiny in his own hands and shape it. If everything is beyond control where is the human dignity? If one walks the Buddha's Path one will know the difference between what is true in the ultimate sense and what is only imagination or a dream. There will be less delusion about the truth and there will eventually be elimination of all that is impure and unwholesome. This is mental emancipation and is that not the highest good one could attain? ***** [Introduction to be continued] Metta, Sarah ====== 36266 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:34am Subject: RE: [dsg] On Facts and Absolutisms Hi Andrew, What you say makes a lot of sense. You make a good case. I feel a little uneasy persevering with the discussion, because I wish to express disagreement on some minor points. The refutation may appear sharp and sarcastic, but it is mostly straight sutta quotes, which I cannot water down in any satisfactory way. If you are interested in persevering, I will be happy to reply, if not, it is not a big deal for me either. I have snipped your excellent post for reasons of brevity, and because I am not quoting any of it in this short reply. Kind Regards Herman 36267 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:46am Subject: Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > > > I think if you can find the right things to read they will be > the > > > food that nourishes wisdom. I kept a copy of this book with me > > > constantly for almost year and would read it even for a few > minutes > > > any chance I got: > > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm > > > .++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > Explain to me, if you would, how this kind of wisdom, wisdom from > > considering the teachings, relates to wisdom arising from > > concentration, that is to say panna. Panna is the wisdom arisen > from > > concentration, right? > > > > > +++++++++++++ > What sort of concentration is meant by the visuddhimagga(xiv7) > when it says that concentration is the proximate cause of panna > (wisdom)? Obviously it > is not miccha-samadhi. Bear in mind that miccha-samadhi(wrong > concentration) comes in countless variations. If it arises in > conjunction with refined lobha(desire) it will feel calm and > peaceful. Samma-samadhi is of two main types: that associated > with satipatthana vipassana and that associated with samatha > (concentration meditation). > > Whenever any citta arises there is also samadhi. At any moment of > satipatthana, correct understanding of a paramattha dhamma, > there must be samadhi associated with it it. That type of > samadhi is samma-samadhi but it only lasts for that moment or > moments that insight is occuring. Robert, I have had this type of 'insight' or some form that looks like insight, while meditating on the body, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's a vipassana nana or that it lead to any changes in my life. And to nit, wouldnt samma-samadhi be ever-present where the insight knowledges arise only periodically? IOW, I would think you would have to be concentrated for some time before insights arise. > It has the function of fixing > or focusing on the object. If samma-samadhi did not arise then > panna would not have a clear object to insight. At the moments > of vipassana-nana samadhi becomes very strong and the minddoor > process is vividly seen. However, both before and after those > moments, samadhi may be at its usual daily life levels. > Samma-samadhi is a most necessary ingredient of the eighfactored > path but we must know that it can only arise when there is > samma-ditthi. You can ask Nina too, but I think I am right in saying > that 'proximate cause' doesn't always mean in time sequence. The > Patthana gives conditions that are co-nascent arisng at the same > time. Some teachers don't study Abhidhamma and may tend to > interpret 'proximate' as always meaning prior. > > Samma-ditthi(right understanding) should be given prominence : > "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first > indication of the > rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first > indication of > wholesome states. > For one of right view, bhikkhus, right intention springs up. For > one of > right intention, right speech springs up. For one of right > speech, right > action springs up. For one of right action, right livelihood > springs up. For > one of right livelihood, right effort springs up. For one of > right effort, > right mindfulness springs up. For one of right mindfulness, > right > concentration springs up. For one of right concentration, right > knowledge > springs up. For one of right knowledge, right deliverance > springs up. > > Anguttara Nikaya 10:121" > > And reading/considering the teachings helps right understanding to > develop. > > This is a big stumbling block for me. I'm not currently at the point where I can put two and two together and plainly read the texts I have to put together an understanding. So we have different ways of putting together right view. When one understands any of the different subjects that Venerable Sariputta illustrates in MN9, we have right understanding. But right view is often said to be a few different things: I understand it to be absence of wrong view, specifically that things are permanent, have a self, or a soul, and also the definition sometimes espoused that there is this world, the next world, fruit & result of good & bad actions, what is given and what is offered, and preists and contemplatives who have realized all this through their own direct knowledge. That last part is a big one to develop a view of. I'd say a lot of mixed view is possible as the last one is probably a tall order to try to develop all at once. I've had some success with coming close to understanding some of the psycho-physical processes like the sixfold sense base and what have you, just on taking mindful walks, so this is a definite opportunity for the arising of right view. But again, I will lack a certain level of confidence in my practise if I am going out there and not seeing impermanence or selflessness, especially after having seen it once. Seeing the true nature of reality is important, so maybe you could understand how I want that good concentration meditation session leading to seeing the three dharma seals in existence. > > > > > +++++++++++++ > > > Remember that insight meditation is showing us that each moment > is > > > conditioned. When we have the idea of practising in such a way > > > (unfettered and without hindrances) we are not being realistic > to > > > the way conditions work. Whenever there is momentary > understanding > > > of a hindrance such as craving then at that moment (of > > > understanding) there is tadanga (temporary ) removal of the > > > hindrance. BUT more importantly there is also some erasement of > the > > > idea of self. > > > On the otherhand if we think we first have to be hindrance free > and > > > then start doing vipassana, we are missing the chance now to > > > understand the hindrances as they are. > >__________________________________________________________ > > > > I can't quite say I understand. For example, I was downstairs last > > night with some of my books in the basement for some time, reading > and > > trying in vain to get some breathing meditation going. However, it > > was good to be away from the computer and by myself. When I came > back > > to the computer, it was extremely clear that as soon as I got my > hand > > on the mouse, craving was present. I have never seen craving with > > such clarity before. I would learn towards saying this is closer > to > > understanding craving, (I concede your point on the principles of > > insight meditation), but would you really say this is temporary > > removal? I wouldn't know how such a thing would be known. > > > > Furthermore, I am anxious to get one really decent session of > > concentration meditation going, because I know that on at least one > > occasion where I have, I come out and am not dependent on wrong > views > > of reality. And to me, momentary concentration, or access > > concentration (it seems the two are somewhat related, to me), is > one > > of the milestones of concentration meditation, so, I naturally link > > these two together and would like their arisal before I go on to > > practise further. > > > > Good discussing Dharma with you. > > > > +++++++++ > Good discussing with you too. > I spent over 2 years trying to duplicate some clarity that I had > had. But finally I realized this actually stopped new insights > coming. > Now my approach is taking every moment as a new one and learning > from it. This new approach doesn't disqualify any moment or > preference any moment. (Taking this in the wrong way (as I do often) > we might think nothing at all is to be done- wrong practice is > always ready to happen whatever we do. ) > I wrote some letters to an American writer that were edited and put > on the net, that you might like reading. > http://www.dhammastudy.com/corr.html > RobertK Robert, I had read the letters and had something to bring up about it but circumstances required me to leave the house and I can't remember what it was. 36268 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 4:59am Subject: Re: CSC 4-Introduction(a) [Ken H: "none of the above"] Hi Dan, We were discussing the meaning of, "Citta experiences an object." You think it refers to just two things, an experiencing and an object. (No mention of an experiencer.) As I have said, I think there are three things involved. Two of them are paramattha dhammas and the third, (the `experiencing,') is a function of one of those paramattha dhammas (citta, the experiencer). You quote Bhikkhu Bodhi: ------------ > [BB's CMA, p. 27] "The commentators define 'citta' in three ways: as agent, as instrument, and as activity. As the agent, citta is that which cognizes and object (aaramma.na.m cintetii ti citta.m). As the instrument, citta is that by means of which the accompanying mental factors cognize the object (etena cintentii ti citta.m). As an activity, citta is itself nothing other than the process of cognizing the object (cintanamatta.m citta.m)." ------------ I wonder if the Commentaries use the words "nothing other." If citta can be defined as "nothing other than the process of cognising the object," where does that leave the other two definitions, null and void? You continue: ---------------------- > BB likes the third the best (answer B): > ---------------------- Yes, it does seem as if he would have chosen answer B. ------------- > "The third definition, in terms of sheer activity, is regarded as the most adequate of the three: that is, citta is fundamentally an activity or process of cognizing or knowing an object. It is not an agent or instrument possessing actual being in itself apart from the activity of cognizing." > ------------- Why does he say "most adequate?" Is he saying the commentaries give two inadequate definitions and one comparatively adequate definition? I am more inclined to think all three definitions are adequate and mutually inclusive. Depending on how you look at it, citta is the experience-er of an object, or it is the means by which the cetasikas also experience the object, or it performs the function of experiencing the object. ------------- D: > Of course, the other two definitions have useful role as well. In BB's words (p. 27 again): "The definitions in terms of agent and instrument are proposed to refute the wrong view of those who hold that a permanent self or ego is the agent and instrument of cognition." > ------------- I suppose that could be the right interpretation, but I would need more convincing. To me, it seems that the commentaries describe three ways in which citta can be directly known - in three separate moments of satipatthana. And, I would think it very important that we learn all three. Kind regards, Ken H 36269 From: plnao Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner7-Introduction(d) Hello all " When there is generosity, there is no person who is generous, generosity is a cetasika performing its function while it assists the kusala citta. When there is attachment, there is no person who is attached, attachment is a cetasika performing its function. " Ph: I can understand why some people are uncomfortable with this. The image leaped to my mind of generosity and kusala citta hand in hand, skipping through a meadow. (Perhaps because cetasika is such a pretty sounding word to me - I think of a Eastern European milk maiden.) But I will want to let go of the part of my mind that struggles to explain everything rationally, and relax into accepting this as a helpful simile. The Buddha laid out Abhidhamma in these terms for a reason. The point is that there is no person who is generous. If cetasika as helper leads to a better understand of no self that is generous, it is helpful. The Buddha knew that different people would respond to different aspects of his teaching. Aren't there wonderful descriptions of him seeing across worlds, into the different insight levels of different people? Instead of seeking to limit the insight of others by competition of views, we should open our minds to the many different branches of Dhamma, the incredible wealth that came to be as a result of the the Buddha's insights into different tendencies, different limitations. I feel joy arising at this moment thinking of the great wealth of Dhamma, so varied in its expression, so powerful in its liberating reach. Ad that feeling of gratitude to Buddha is a cetasika. (I don't know which one.) It is not self. I am mindful of it. "The cetasikas which accompany the citta experience the same object as the citta while they each perform their own function." Ph: This is something I don't understand yet. How a cetasika experiences an object. It seems there would need to be a sense-door citta, or mind-door citta, to experience and object. How can a cetasika like conceit, for example, or energy (a universal) experience an object, I wonder. Metta Phil 36270 From: plnao Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner8-Introduction(e) Hello all When I made a feeble attempt this summer to explain my interest in Dhamma to friends in Canada, and spoke of things being beyond our control, the response was befuddled, as though I had given up hope in being able to accomplish anything, and had become a nihilist or something. People thought it sounded depressing. I hadn't yet gained enough confidence to talk about Dhamma. I wish I had written this passage on the inside of my sleeve so I could have turned to it when I needed it: " If everything is beyond control where is the human dignity? If one walks the Buddha's Path one will know the difference between what is true in the ultimate sense and what is only imagination or a dream. There will be less delusion about the truth and there will eventually be elimination of all that is impure and unwholesome. This is mental emancipation and is that not the highest good one could attain?" Great stuff. Some will say that Abhidhamma devotees are seeing or practicing towards seeing ultimate realities (true in the ultimate sense) where there are in fact only concepts. (ie imagination and dreams.) How can I as a beginner say they are wrong? I guess it is faith in the Buddha and his teaching, based on the positive changes it has brought into my life, that allows me to say so. Metta, Phil 36271 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:37am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 Hi Ken, 2 weeks is a long time, and we're not even in politics :-) ============ KH: That sounds right to me: whenever there is a concept (e.g., "a tree") then there is intention (cetana) and its associated sankharas. But they are not known at that precise moment. At the moment of "tree awareness" there is no awareness of cetana. So the paramattha dhammas known as `thinking' (cetana, vicara, vitakka, etc.) can be known with satipatthana but not so, "tree." ============= Am I reading you correctly, are you sure you mean satipatthana? If so, can you explain that a bit ? Kind Regards Herman H: > Perhaps we investigate differently. ---------------- How do you investigate? I assume we are talking about some sort of Buddhist meditation: we are not talking about how a scientist investigates H2O, for example. When I used to indulge in formal Buddhist meditation (forgive the oxymoron) I would concentrate on concepts; sometimes with the aim of seeing them arising, persisting and falling away. One instruction manual had me hearing a birdcall with the understanding; "beginning of birdcall" "middle of birdcall" "end of birdcall." That is why I was saying to Eric that the investigation of concepts just comes up with more concepts. Kind regards, Ken H 36272 From: Dan D. Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:38am Subject: CSC4 Ken's quiz: Whining about my grade Dear Ken, I really like your quiz, but your grading is the pits! You ask: > When we say, `Citta experiences an object,' are we talking about: > A, a single reality - an event, > B, two realities - the experiencing and the experienced, > C, three realities - the experience-er, the experiencing and the experienced, or, > D, none of the above? I stick by my original answer, viz. "Certainly D is the best answer because no language is going to perfectly describe the experience." You have me down for picking B: "Is it just the experience-ing and there is no experience-er? (Dan opted for this one.)" Explanation? "Citta" does not neatly fit into grammatical categories of "noun" and "verb." It fits into both categories "experiencing" and "experiencer" (B and C), but the match is not perfect in either case. Which answer best describes citta? The one that best teaches about: i. the distinction between nama and rupa (in the sense of nama being active, rupa non-active), and/or ii. the characteristic of anatta. Whether B or C better delivers the message depends on the hearer. Sometimes B works better; sometimes C. Your explanation for D was: > My understanding was (and still is) that citta is the experience-er > and that the experience-ing is not a separate dhamma but a function > of the same experience-er. This is a fine formulation -- so long as it is not clung to too adamantly! Dan 36273 From: plnao Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] CSC4 Ken's quiz: Whining about my grade > Dear Ken, > I really like your quiz, but your grading is the pits! Ph: I protest too. If I recall correctly, someone wrote that Bhikkhu Bodhi also did choose or would have chosen B, based on a passage from M of Ab. I want at least a B- for that. (That being said, I'm too lazy intellectually to pursue the point, so I guess it's a weak pass after all.) ;) Metta, Phil 36274 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi Howard, I was wondering: ---------------- > where is the problem? Why am I happy with this while you, , > are not? Is it the word substantialist? I have no problem with > substantialism unless it says that concepts are substantial - which > they are not, of course. > ---------------- You replied: --------------- H: > It is not only concepts the Buddha states are insubstantial. All dhammas are said to be hollow and void. --------------- Hollow and void, yes, but realities are not insubstantial. I am very sure the Buddha said the five khandhas are substantial. ----------------- H: > There are the following two paragraphs from The Snake, in the Sutta Nipata: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > He who does not find core or substance > in any of the realms of being, > like flowers which are vainly sought > in fig trees that bear none, > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. ---------------- Needless to say, this is an excellent simile: Fig trees are substantial, in the conventional sense of the word, but they are empty of flowers. Similarly, dhammas are substantial, in the absolute sense of the word, but they are empty of self. ----------------- > He who neither goes too far nor lags behind > and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," > -- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. > ------------------ Hmmm, that's a tricky one! I would have to assume it means the conventional world is unreal. Otherwise, the meaning is at odds with the Dhamma as a whole. As in the other (snipped) excellent quotes you have provided: the meaning is that paramattha dhammas are empty of self. They lack the substance of self, but they have their own substance. They are real: they have their own functions and characteristics and they need their own special conditions to arise. The five khandhas are not mere ideas made up to serve a purpose (as teaching aids). ------------------------- H: > With heartfelt (but quite insubstantial ;-) metta, Howard > -------------------------- Your metta is substantial; I have no doubt about that. Metta, Ken H 36275 From: Dan D. Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:10am Subject: CSC4 [Howard: "emptiness is preeminent"] Dear Howard, YOu write: "Whatever the topic, whether it be citta or anything else, emptiness is preeminent..." What do you mean by "emptiness"? You answer: "impersonality and non- agency, dependency, corelessness, insubstantiality, impermanence, and unworthiness of being clung to (and the futility of clinging)". I'd remove "non-agency" and "dependency" from the litany and question "insubstantiality" and "corelessness". 1. Non-agency is not the same thing as impersonality. To discuss citta as an impersonal agent can a useful part of the bridge to an understanding of anatta. The distinction between "agent" and "personality"? "Personality" has a connotation of "lasting," while "agent" may be ephemeral. 2. Nibbana, the unconditioned, has anatta as characteristic, so "dependency" doesn't fit in the litany. 3. Insubstantiality? I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Citta is certainly brief and hasn't any "substance". But do you also interpret it to mean that there isn't any world "out there"? 4. And "corelessness" is a fine metaphor too to reinforce and develop an understanding of anicca (and hence anatta). But it seems like this metaphor can so easily be misapplied to support a denial of "characteristic" (sabhava). Another question: Why do you prefer "emptiness" (suññata) to anatta? Is there some aspect of Dhamma that "emptiness" portrays better to you than does "anatta"? If so, could you elaborte? Dan 36276 From: Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/11/04 9:06:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I was wondering: > ---------------- > >where is the problem? Why am I happy with this while you, Herman>, > >are not? Is it the word substantialist? I have no problem with > >substantialism unless it says that concepts are substantial - > which > >they are not, of course. > > > ---------------- > > You replied: > > --------------- > H: >It is not only concepts the Buddha states are insubstantial. > All dhammas are said to be hollow and void. > --------------- > > Hollow and void, yes, but realities are not insubstantial. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: What do you think 'hollow' and 'void' mean if not "insubstantial"! -------------------------------------------------- I am > > very sure the Buddha said the five khandhas are substantial. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I can't imagine what the source of such sureness might be! ------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- > H: >There are the following two paragraphs from The Snake, in the > Sutta Nipata: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >He who does not find core or substance > >in any of the realms of being, > >like flowers which are vainly sought > >in fig trees that bear none, > >-- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > >just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. > ---------------- > > Needless to say, this is an excellent simile: Fig trees are > substantial, in the conventional sense of the word, but they are > empty of flowers. Similarly, dhammas are substantial, in the > absolute sense of the word, but they are empty of self. > > ----------------- > >He who neither goes too far nor lags behind > >and knows about the world: "This is all unreal," > >-- such a monk gives up the here and the beyond, > >just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin. > > > ------------------ > > Hmmm, that's a tricky one! I would have to assume it means the > conventional world is unreal. Otherwise, the meaning is at odds with > the Dhamma as a whole. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not at all. --------------------------------------------------- > > As in the other (snipped) excellent quotes you have provided: the > meaning is that paramattha dhammas are empty of self. They lack the > substance of self, but they have their own substance. They are real: > they have their own functions and characteristics and they need > their own special conditions to arise. The five khandhas are not > mere ideas made up to serve a purpose (as teaching aids). > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Too bad you snipped the Phena Sutta. It is the most telling quote for expressing the insubstantiality of all dhammas. The opening lines say it all: > Form is like a glob of foam; > feeling, a bubble; > perception, a mirage; > fabrications, a banana tree; > consciousness, a magic trick -- > this has been taught > by the Kinsman of the Sun. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------- > H: >With heartfelt (but quite insubstantial ;-) metta, > Howard > > -------------------------- > > Your metta is substantial; I have no doubt about that. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Thanks, Ken. ------------------------------------------------ > > Metta, > Ken H > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36277 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:34am Subject: Re: Theory and Practice _Sukin & Htoo Hi Htoo, You said: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: This post was originally from Sukin to Eric. But as I have not > long communicated with Sukin, and as this message is very interesting > and valuable I just butt in. If there is any inconvenience, please > forgive me. :-) You are welcome anytime to respond to any of my posts Htoo. I value your wisdom highly, so it can only be good for me to hear your comments. So thanks very much for responding here. Besides already it has been so many days that you wrote me off-list and I haven't found the time to respond to you yet, so this is good excuse to write something now. Now I go to other parts of your post. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Htoo: > I met a monk who was strongly believed to be an arahat. He was also > extremely calm. Whenever he had a chance to talk, what he would > preach was 'to stay in the present'. That is when we move, we must > know that we move. When hear, just hear, when see just see, when look > just note want to look and then look at, and note all the present. Sukin: I think it takes a long time through close association, for a serious putthujana to come to any correct estimation of another's level of understanding, namely in terms of Right View. I know that you have an excellent knowledge and understanding of the Teachings and so are equipped with the necessary tool to assess the monk. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Even though I did not know whether they were ariyas or arahats, they > were well calm and free of anything that you would accuse them of. Sukin: Do you think it is possible that the conditions are such that some person will remain calm and peaceful for a long time, but the kilesas are in fact still quite intact? And when they expound the dhamma, it comes from sanna more than from panna? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: The Four Noble Truths, if a teaching is consistent with this, > then it would qualify as Right View, otherwise not. Which is another > way of saying that only the Buddha and his followers were/can be > enlightened. > Htoo: Other beings who are not Buddhas and followers of The Buddhas > and become enlightened are paccekabuddhas. Otherwise, no one can be > enlightened. Sukin: It didn't come to my mind at that time about paccekabuddhas, thanks for reminding. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin:It seems odd that people, including monks, have meditated (in > some cases on the breath) for 20, 30 or 40 years and all they can > talk about at the end of it, is `calm', `happiness', `peace' and so > on. And when they advice anyone on `understanding' dhamma, they point > to the `formal practice'. > Htoo: Partly agree. But there are some who really urge to practise > mahasatipatthana of attending realities. But as you said there are > some who constantly encouraging to do meditation because it makes > calm, happiness, and peace. That is in the very formal way like going > to a quiet place and sit in cross-legged. Sukin: Good to hear about those who encourage mahasatipatthana in daily life. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: Forget about `wrong view', but do these people even know about > `avijja'!! They talk about experiencing the vipassana nanas, and yet > when it comes to knowing seeing, hearing, smelling and so on, they do > not find it important enough to consider these. > Htoo: The right view starts with understanding of avijja. Sukin: Yes, only the Buddha taught about the danger of avijja, other religions can see the danger only in lobha, dosa and mana and the value of metta, karuna, dana, sila and so on. But without Right View, can anyone really come to a perfect understanding of any of these unwholesome and wholesome dhammas? And Avijja is really so hard to see, no? We can see to some extent other akusala and be reminded about developing all kinds of Kusala. But Avijja!! It is just darkness! > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: It is ignorance as in `ignoring' these very presently arising > realities that causes them to cling to rites and rituals "formal > meditation", and be deluded by illusory results. > Htoo: This is the site where there is obstruction and deters the > progress. Sukin: Glad that you agree. (-: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: They are in fact encouraging ignorance though otherwise they > claim to practice in order to "know". > Htoo: How do you suggest here, Sukin? Sukin: When someone points to the formal practice and does not give due importance to whatever dhammas that arise at other times, this means that those other moments are being conditioned by ignorance. And as you said above, "The right view starts with understanding of avijja", this would seem then that they would unlikely have Right Understanding even during formal practice. So I think we can conclude on the whole that whatever their view of practice is, it must on the whole condition more avijja and wrong view. I think one mistake many Buddhists make, is to think that the mind must first be calm or wholesome or one pointed before dhammas can be known to any degree. Many don't understand the significance of the relationship between, pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. In addition to this, there is the idea that the `deliberate looking'(intentional observation) actually leads to `seeing' (sati), or worse, that it *is* sati. All this it seems is failure at the level of pariyatti itself. Because of this lack of pariyatti, here referring to the panna of this level, there is misunderstanding of what practice involves. Pariyatti is not the `verbal knowledge' but indeed the level of understanding which *knows* at least the value of developing satipatthana and that this very moment is conditioned and anatta. And though it may only be `thinking' in the beginning about just fallen away dhammas, it knows that what ever level of panna arises is just what is meant to be, and with this is already some detachment. And in this case, more understanding about conditionality and anatta is accumulating as sankhara. Which is why, without correct pariyatti and knowing conditioned realities in daily life, one will be deluded into thinking that *more* can be achieved through some deliberate effort on one's part via some formal practice or `deliberate looking'. And this is to go against the principal of anatta and conditionality. This is how it seems to me Htoo, what do you think? Again, thank you for your response and giving me a chance to learn something of your understanding. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Metta, Sukin 36278 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: CSC 4-Introduction(a) [Ken H: "none of the above"] Dear Dan & KenH & All, --- kenhowardau wrote: > You quote Bhikkhu Bodhi: > ------------ > > [BB's CMA, p. 27] "The commentators define 'citta' in three ways: > as agent, as instrument, and as activity. As the agent, citta is > that which cognizes and object (aaramma.na.m cintetii ti citta.m). > As the instrument, citta is that by means of which the accompanying > mental factors cognize the object (etena cintentii ti citta.m). As > an activity, citta is itself nothing other than the process of > cognizing the object (cintanamatta.m citta.m)." > ------------ > I wonder if the Commentaries use the words "nothing other." If > citta can be defined as "nothing other than the process of cognising > the object," where does that leave the other two definitions, null > and void? ..... S: Let me add the exact text from the commentary to the Abhidhammathasangaha, transl in Summary & Exposition of theTopics of Abhidhamma (PTS), which B.Bodhi’s Guide notes are based on. Prologue, p7 “Consciousness (citta) is that which is conscious; the meaning is that it knows (vijaanaati) an object. So it is said: ‘Consciousness has the characteristic of knowing objects.’ ( As112) for although such causal conditions as those of support and immediate contiguity are also relevant, consciousnes does not arise in the absence of an object, and therefore its characteristic is spoken of with reference to that. This rejects the view that consciousness arises in the absence of an object. “Or else consciousness is the means by which the associated dhammas are conscious. Alternatively, consciousness is the mere act of being conscious (cintana). For it is its mere occurrence in accordance with conditions that is called ‘a dhamma with its own particular nature’ (sabhaava-dhamma). In consideration of this, it is the definition of the particular natures of ultimate dhammas that is taken as absolute; the explanation by way of agent (kattar) and instrument (kara.na) should be seen as a relative manner of speaking. For a dhamma’s being treated as an agent, by attributing the status of ‘self’ to the particular function of a dhamma, and also its being [treated] in consequence as an instrument, by attributing the state of agent to a group of conascent dhammas, are both taken as a relative manner of speaking. The explanation in these terms should be understood as for the purpose of indicating the non-existence of an agent, etc. apart from the particular nature of a dhamma. The meaning of the word citta is also elaborated as that which causes variegation and so on. Thus it is summarized: ‘It is consciousness because it causes variegation (vicitta), or because it is itself variegated; it is gathered (cita) by kamma and defilements, or it preserves what has been gathered thus; it gathers its own continuity, and it has a variety of objects.’ (Abhid-av 2,v.9) “That which exists in the mind (cetasi) by occurring in dependence upon it is mentality (cetasika). For it is unable to take an object without consciousness; in the absence of consciousness there is no arising of any mentality at all. But consciousness does occur with an object in the absence of certain mentalities; so mentality is said to occur in dependence upon consciousness. Therefore the Blessed One has said: ‘Dhammas have mind as their forerunner.’ (Dhp 1) This refutes erroneous opinions such as that happiness, etc., are permanent and exist in the absence of consciousness. (cf Vism 511, ChXV1, 85) Alternatively mentality is that which is combined with consciousness.” ***** S: There is also a lot more detail in the Atthasalini, transl as the Expositor, Analysis of Terms, p 84f which I know Dan has studied. When seeing consciousness or any other citta is the object of awareness, the characteristic of knowing its particular object is clear. However, I think the discussions you and others are having on the meaning of these key terms are very useful and important. I look forward to more! Metta, Sarah ======= 36279 From: Dan D. Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] CSC4-Introduction(a) [Herman: "rules of language"] Good tidings to you, Herman. In response to my question: "how can we *precisely* express "citta" in English?" You write: "...I think it is very important to understand the "why" of expressing something, the reason for saying it. And in answering your question for themselves, the reader may well discover the perfect peace of free-range citta (as opposed to the captured kind) :- )" Great answer! > And so often when we attempt to describe experience, we are including > all sorts of material that has nothing to do with what is actually > experienced, or what we actually want to convey. I think that is right. One variant of that is when hearing a word or a doctrine, we might latch onto it to build up an elaborate, speculative theory about "the world" as opposed to the task of describing experience. The metastasis of theories is a nasty disease. > The grammar of language > incorporates all sorts of inferences about causality and assumes all > sorts of fixed elements like time and space, subjects and objects. Yup. But it is tough to express things outside the grammar, so we have to make approximations and not get too hung-up on the absolute correctness or incorrectness of a particular formulation. "citta experiences object" vs. "citta is the experiencing of an object" are both wrong, but they have both been used to good effect in Theravada Buddhism for millenia. However, I don't recall seeing "there is no subject and no object, just experience" appearing anywhere in the Tipitaka. Is it not useful? Is it potentially useful but very easy to misinterpret? Does it too often lead to proliferation of theory? My working hypothesis is that the farther removed from experience that a view is, the more it lends itself to proliferation of theories rather than description of experience. It is apparently not necessary to stray all the way to "no subject, no object" to understand anatta, and attempting to do so would then carry an elevated risk of developing a thicket of views -- Give me machete! Give me Dhamma! > So if we want to communicate *citta as experience only* we need to adopt > a different grammar, the grammar of experience. I don't think it would > look anything like the English we use. I agree. I'd also throw in that it is not necessary to do so. > I would typify the above *citta as experience* (or removing the > redundancies leaving either just *citta* or just *experience*) as > becoming. Becoming is a process, not a thing. I see. E.g.: Dependent origination is an expression of process or becoming. DO seems readable without needing to evoke subject+bject. However, DO is not "citta". In the "citta" formulation, there *must* be an object -- it's built into the system. > On the other hand, *thinking about citta* is *becoming attempting to > be*, or *having*. Having creates the subject - object duality. Having is > all about things. Things with nature, essence, characteristics and the > like. So communication about *thinking about citta* is best done in > terms of process, not objects. You lost me, Herman. I agree that thinking about citta involves thinking about objects of cittas. You propose dismissing the citta formulation because it introduces "things with nature, essence, characteristics"? Or, you want to subvert the citta formulation by removing characteristic and object from the notion? I object! It just doesn't work -- at least not in Theravada Buddhism. But "citta" is a Pali term, for goodness sake. No hijacking Pali terms for non- Theravada usage! Dan 36280 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Dear Dan, You take so much trouble to answer all our posts. That is very kind of you. But since you have your work, it may become too much. There is a risk of your leaving because of this burden. You said years ago that there is no obligation to answer Emails and people should not apologize when they delay in answering. I would rather have Dan with scarcity of posts than no Dan at all! op 10-09-2004 16:10 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: It is madness to cling so strongly to one > formulation or another that one ends up verbally assaulting someone > who uses another formulation, as I did to you some time ago. I > apologize. N: Oh no, absolutely nothing to apologize about. You were always so kind, only at times cringing at language. What I especially remember from you, shortly before leaving the forelast time, you wrote: when you meditate on the Abhidhamma the Master's eye is not far away. I quoted that later on because I found it very touching. True, when considering the Abhidhamma it is fitting to feel deep gratitude and respect to the Master. D: Sometimes I cringe at the formulation "citta cognizes an > object" or "seeing sees" because the distinguishing characteristic of > citta is its sheer activity (as opposed to the non-activity of the > rupa) N: I considered this. Still, rupa is active in its own way, conditions make it that way. Like a sense-organ: ready for impact of a relevant sense object. Also rupa has a function, each rupa a different one. I see your point, I would say, it is personal. I also believe that when we think too much, or wrestle with words, it might distract from the direct experience. I come back to that in a minute. D: >> When insight has developed and dhammas are directly experienced, no > words are needed.>> > Needed for what? I don't understand. N: For direct understanding of characteristics of realities. You said about your talk with Kh Sujin: That's it, that's it. She knocked on the table and asked whether hardness was light or dark. In order to directly experience the characteristic of hardness there is no need to name it, you can call it anything. Now we come closer. Hardness is a characteristic of dhamma and it cannot be changed into something else. She wants to help people not to get stuck with words but to be directly aware of different namas and rupas. D: Words are surely needed to > describe the experience to others and for helping clarify the words > in the tipitaka. In addition, wrestling with words helps bring the > experience into the proper location in the vast net of words and > ideas of the teachings, thus making more comprehensible the words > that describe insights not yet experienced. N: Sure, we try to describe realities as best as we can. But when a stage of insight arises, no words are needed, realities are directly experienced with paññaa through the mind-door. The same is the case with enlightenment. The Tipitaka and Commentaries are scarce with words about these matters. In the suttas there is allusion to the pariññas (this is insight) with the term clear comprehension, and this is further explained in the Commentaries. I liked your exchnage with Azita: > So, in conclusion, I'll just reiterate your comment that: "...we >> should never imagine that it is possible to capture experience in >> words, of any language. But we can, and should be, mindful of our >> constant efforts to do so." >>> Azita: Not only to do so in any language, but to try and capture > the experience!>> N: Yes, the direct experience of realities by pañña. This is essential. It is the way leading to detachment. D:... Now, how to express "citta" in a way that guarantees that no > one who hears it will be misled by experiencers, subjects, and little > selves? Can't be done. >> D:The lobha-rooted cittas are the experiencings (cittas) of >>> objects (thoughts), colored by different shades (cetasikas) such > as >>> pleasant feeling (vedana), ...>> I don't quite see how the 'colors' metaphor clouds vision of > conditions. Can you expand on this? N: If you find it helpful, do use it. It is personal. I used to think that this would help, but later on I dropped it as being insufficient. When I learnt about the many aspects of citta I came to different ideas. For instance, as was discussed before, I see the importance of knowing the four jaatis of kusala, akusala vipaaka and kiriya. Seeing is vipaka, it is entirely different from the cittas with attachment to what is seen which may follow closely. Feeling that is vipaaka is entirely different from feeling that is akusala. We have to learn this when they occur at this moment. That is the meaning of understanding characteristics. It is good to begin with the Matika of the Dhamma Sagani, even only the first words, because seeing different aspects of citta will help not to see them as little selves. I have the Pali next to it, because the transl is insufficient. Also the Co, the Expositor helps. In Kh. Sujin's book Survey of Paramattha dhammas she goes over all the different aspects of citta as explained by the Expositor, p. 84, 85. The Commentator uses different wordings with the purpose to show different aspects. The purpose is not linguistics. Citta is vicitta: variegated (or citra), and how! This will cure us from taking it for self. It accumulates kamma and defilements from moment to moment. The study of all of this should bring us to the present moment, and that has to be understood more thoroughly. Nina. 36281 From: Dan D. Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:22am Subject: Re: CSC 4-Introduction(a) [Ken H: "none of the above"] Good morning, Ken! I don't have any idea whether or not it's morning when you are reading this, but the sun is now up here. You wrote: > We were discussing the meaning of, "Citta experiences an object." > You think it refers to just two things, an experiencing and an > object. (No mention of an experiencer.) > > As I have said, I think there are three things involved. Two of them > are paramattha dhammas and the third, (the `experiencing,') is a > function of one of those paramattha dhammas (citta, the experiencer). My point is that both those formulations are wrong, but both are right enough to be helpful in their own way. The danger is in dogmatically clinging to one as "right" and the other as "wrong." For me, right now, the "citta experiences an object" works better, but it isn't helpful to cling to that as a view. > I suppose that could be the right interpretation, but I would need > more convincing. To me, it seems that the commentaries describe > three ways in which citta can be directly known - in three separate > moments of satipatthana. And, I would think it very important > that we learn all three. I wonder... My initial inclination is that these are three different descriptions of the direct knowing of cittas, i.e., for some people, one description seems to fit best; for other people, a different description fits best. Perhaps it really is three ways that citta can be known in three different satipatthanas, but given the vagueries of language, I incline to the former as my working hypothesis. Thanks. Dan 36282 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] object in the reality of arising sounds Hi Howard, op 10-09-2004 07:01 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:>> >>> Where does that ruupa arise, Nina, at the initial moment when it is >>> not yet known? What exactly constitutes that arising? >> N: There are four factors that can originate rupa: kamma, citta, heat or >> nutrition. ... > ============================= H: I really didn't make myself clear. N: Yes, I think you made yourself clear. I knew that you would wonder: is the colour first in space before it comes to the doorway, and how could this be so? And right, I saw your following post with space mentioned, as I thought it would be. I wanted to stress conditions in my answer but I realised that you had something else in mind. You thought: no rupas out there. They are only in the mind. And you thought, how could she say, they are there before they are cognized; that is a reification, substantialism. I try again from other angles, and today I highlight kamma-condition. H: The moon is just concept. What does > "the moon's color" refer to? N: It is only an example to indicate: a certain colour. The commentary uses it to indicate that colour impinges in a way different from smell, flavour and tangible which impinge directly on the sense base. Evenso re colour of a bodypart, it has colour. In the past when we discussed colour and you explained you saw it as a replica in the mind, I switched to sound, thinking it would be easier to discuss. For colour, I took the body as an example, colour of some part of the body. Because what we call body consists of many groups of rupa, some produced by kamma, some by citta, some by nutrition, some by heat. Thus also colour of a body can be originated by one of these four. But I remember that you did not take to groups of rupa. We can leave that. Here is the passage I meant, taken from my Vis. study on rupakkhandha: > It is a different matter in the case of odours, flavours, and tangible object. That is why their experience is taken separately by using the term muta, sensed. It reminds us of the direct contact of these objects with the relevant sense-organs. Thus, this is a fourfold classification of the experience of objects through the six doors, of the aayatanas. The Vis. stresses that the different elements are coming together at the right time so that there can be the experience of objects. We read about a classification of what occurs now, all the time. They exhibit their own characteristics and are gone before one can do anything about them. > The senses are rupas produced by kamma, so that we in this life can receive vipaaka, results of kamma such as seeing, hearing, etc. Seeing that is pleasant or unpleasant, hearing that is pleasant or unpleasant. Some rupas are produced by citta: Citta can cause blushing, and we see a reddish colour, for example. Yes, blushing is a conventional term but it explains this colour produced by citta. Or citta causes laughing. This is a conventional term, but it explains these rupas. Sound of laughing for instance. Nutrition: affects the body and can have visible effects. Heat: sunburn, can it not be seen? A colour? About nutrition from Vis. study on rupakkhandha: > This passage helps us to see all the more how intricate the different conditioning factors are that cooperate to cause the functioning of the body. We can be reminded that the body we cling to are only conditioned rupas, not mine. We cling to our physical health, but we are not the owner of the body. Kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition originate rupas of the body during our life. It depends on kamma how long life lasts.> H: Where is that color? Where does it arise? If not > in "mind", then where? In space? Space is concept. N: Inward space is a rupa, not a concept, but we do not talk about that now. You mean outward space and that is a concept. First colour is nowhere, then it comes into being because of specific conditions, then it ceases and it is not to be found. Example: strike a match and the result is fire. The fire was not kept somewhere in space and traveled to the match stick. There were the right conditions of match stick and matchbox, or a lighter if you like, so that fire originated. (the teachings give: the rubbing of two match sticks). We have to keep in mind the aim of the teachings: many conditions are shown so that there will be detachment from the idea of self. There are mere elements arising because of specific conditions, and what arises because of conditions cannot stay. I also have to keep on reminding myself! We cannot expect a scientific description of what exactly happens before sound or colour impinge on the sense base, becfore they are known. But multiplicity of conditions is stressed. This is the key. I think you have confidence in the operations of kamma in your life. Such as, why was there this coincidence, why did this or this happen at a certain moment that was just right? There was gain and loss, bodily wellbeing and sickness. These are again conventional terms but they denote different sense-cognitions caused by kamma. Your sickness, and hearing bad news about it, then hearing good news. Hearing is produced by kamma. I speak now about vipaka, your was with equanimity. Another example: why did Rob M tried on Google and then landed in our group? For a long time he was wondering about free will and then changed his mind because he understood conditions after many discussions in our group. You may understand that kamma produces the sense-cognitions. Kamma sees to it that visible object, sound, turns up at the right moment so that it can be experienced. I find it is useless to think where they came from (somewhere in space) and that is also what you find. Your point is: senseobjects cannot exist before they are experienced, you think that they are due to the workings of the mind. I think that this is not enough. That it is more beneficial to understand conditons. They are just elements and can be objects of understanding at this moment. This can lead to detachment. H: What does it mean for color to be "outside"? Outside of what? The > body? Body is just concept. > If "outside color", whatever that is, is originated by temperature, > then where is that temperature? Where does *it* arise? > It seems to me that none of this is explained, and none of it makes > much sense. N: I know this is hard for you to take, rupas outside. By rupas outside I mean, not belonging to a living body. Take fire. Touch it, it is hot. This heat is heat outside, not of the body. You will say, yes, but it exists only when it is experienced, thus it occurs due to the mind. I think that this heat must impinge on the bodysense so that it is experienced. As to condition: when it is not conditioned by kamma, citta or nutrition, it is conditioned by utu, translated as climate, or temperature. You ask My answer again: the right condition at the right moment. I understand that this seems odd to you, an easy out answer. In fact, the way conditions work seems like a miracle, agreed. But above I elaborated on kamma in your life and in other people's lives, and also in such cases it seems that there are miracles. That is the way conditions including kamma work, it should not surprise us. I feel no need to ask myself how exactly and which temperature conditions which one. And if I am in a speculative mood and do so inspite of knowing better, it deviates me from the goal. Then I feel very frustrated. Temperature arises and falls away and can condition another unit with temperature, that is also momentary. Only momentary rupas, momentary conditions. You could ask, how can it be that a rupa which will be sense-object has to arise before it impinges? It happens and we cannot trace it all in a scientific way. It is not the purpose of the teachings to answer such questions. Detachment is the purpose. Just as in the case of kamma-condition, we cannot trace how it exactly operates, impossible. But we see the workings of kamma in our lives. To clarify a little more the purpose of the teaching on rupas and conditions, I quote from my Vis. study: Nina 36283 From: Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] CSC4 [Howard: "emptiness is preeminent"] Hi, Dan - In a message dated 9/11/04 9:54:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > > YOu write: "Whatever the topic, whether it be citta or anything else, > emptiness is preeminent..." > > What do you mean by "emptiness"? You answer: "impersonality and non- > agency, dependency, corelessness, insubstantiality, impermanence, and > unworthiness of being clung to (and the futility of clinging)". > > I'd remove "non-agency" and "dependency" from the litany and > question "insubstantiality" and "corelessness". > > 1. Non-agency is not the same thing as impersonality. To discuss > citta as an impersonal agent can a useful part of the bridge to an > understanding of anatta. The distinction between "agent" > and "personality"? "Personality" has a connotation of "lasting," > while "agent" may be ephemeral. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I don't perceive these connotations. The conventional "person" for most westerners is a "changing entity", and an agent could be permanent or impermanent. ----------------------------------------- > > 2. Nibbana, the unconditioned, has anatta as characteristic, > so "dependency" doesn't fit in the litany. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: I have no clue as to what "thing" nibbana might be. I see it as an absence - the absence of the three poisons. But I agree that it is not dependent. It's realization is dependent, but it is not, because reality is already free of the three poisons in the same way as a chalkboard, even when covered by chalk dust, is, itself, free of chalk dust. So, dependency is not a characteristic of nibbana, and thus not part of what makes of what makes nibbana empty. Nor is impermanence part of it either. But both impermanence and dependency are part of what make conditions empty. In fact, I would say that the dependent origination of all conditions is virtually synonymous with their emptiness. --------------------------------------------------- > > 3. Insubstantiality? I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Citta is > certainly brief and hasn't any "substance". > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Whatever has no substance, no core, is insubstantial and coreless. ---------------------------------------------- But do you also interpret > > it to mean that there isn't any world "out there"? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't even know what "out there" might be except concept. ----------------------------------------------- > > 4. And "corelessness" is a fine metaphor too to reinforce and develop > an understanding of anicca (and hence anatta). But it seems like this > metaphor can so easily be misapplied to support a denial > of "characteristic" (sabhava). ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not by me. I certainly believe that distinguishing characteristics is valid. However, 'sabhava', in my opinion, should not be used in place of 'lakkhana', because 'sabhava' literally means "own being". It is a misleading term. ------------------------------------------------- > > Another question: Why do you prefer "emptiness" (suññata) to anatta? > Is there some aspect of Dhamma that "emptiness" portrays better to > you than does "anatta"? If so, could you elaborte? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha used the term. In any case, I am including under 'emptiness' for dhammas other than nibbana, not only anatta, but also impermanence, dependency, corelessness, and insecurity (i.e., not serving as a safe haven - unworthingess of being clung to). Nibbana must be excluded here. With the realization of nibbana, the absence of any sense of self or lasting core in anything, the absence of any sense of separate, self-sufficient conditions, the absence of craving and aversion and of clinging to anything whatsoever constitute a lasting, independent, safe haven - an island of peace. ------------------------------------------------ > > Dan > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36284 From: Dan D. Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:32am Subject: Re: CSC 4-[Sarah: "citta is..."] Dear Sarah (et al.), Thanks for adding these excellent and pertinent elaborations. My summary: Citta is citta, and three ways to talk about citta are as agent, instrument, or activity. All involve object. Is there a way to read it as saying that the agent/instrument/activity are really three ways to "experience 'citta'" rather than describe it? I don't have much time to discuss right now. Dan 36285 From: Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] object in the reality of arising sounds Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/11/04 10:28:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > H: Where is that color? Where does it arise? If not > >in "mind", then where? In space? Space is concept. > N: Inward space is a rupa, not a concept, but we do not talk about that now. > ====================== Ahh, but I think we *should* be talking about that now! This may be the crux of the matter. What is this "inward space"? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning0in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36286 From: Dan D. Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Dear Nina, > D: Sometimes I cringe at the formulation "citta cognizes an > > object" or "seeing sees" because the distinguishing characteristic of > > citta is its sheer activity (as opposed to the non-activity of the > > rupa) > N: I considered this. Still, rupa is active in its own way, conditions make > it that way. Like a sense-organ: ready for impact of a relevant sense > object. Also rupa has a function, each rupa a different one. Another way to express my point is that rupa cannot experience an object, but nama does. > D: >> When insight has developed and dhammas are directly experienced, no > > words are needed.>> > > > Needed for what? I don't understand. > N: For direct understanding of characteristics of realities. I'm still not sure what you mean. Clearly, direct insight has nothing to do with words or putting together any particular formulation of words or weaving together this theory or that theory. Discussion of insight or dhammas does require words, though, and it is good to try to find words that are helpful rather than words that are not helpful. > That's it, that's it. She knocked on the table and asked whether hardness > was light or dark. In order to directly experience the characteristic of > hardness there is no need to name it, you can call it anything. O.K. This is good. When she asked that, my immediate response was to laugh inside -- no light or dark! But after recollecting hardness a moment later, I answered "dark," because there is no light whatsoever in experiencing hardness. > She wants to help people not to get stuck with words but to > be directly aware of different namas and rupas. Right. And her questions are helpful. > >> D:The lobha-rooted cittas are the experiencings (cittas) of > >>> objects (thoughts), colored by different shades (cetasikas) such > > as > >>> pleasant feeling (vedana), ...>> > I don't quite see how the 'colors' metaphor clouds vision of > > conditions. Can you expand on this? > N: If you find it helpful, do use it. It is personal. I used to think that > this would help, but later on I dropped it as being insufficient. It is certainly insufficient. Its utility is solely in making a first pass distinction between citta and cetasika. Thanks. Dan 36287 From: m. nease Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 8:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: CSC 4-Introduction(a) [Ken H: "none of the above"] Hi Dan, Hope you don't mind a quick interjection: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan D." To: Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 7:22 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: CSC 4-Introduction(a) [Ken H: "none of the above"] > My point is that both those formulations are wrong, but both are > right enough to be helpful in their own way. The danger is in > dogmatically clinging to one as "right" and the other as "wrong." For > me, right now, the "citta experiences an object" works better, but it > isn't helpful to cling to that as a view. On the contrary--as I see it, understanding that citta does indeed experience an object (with no 'experiencer' behind the event) is very much a part of conceptual right view. Clinging (upadaana) and right view do not arise at the same time. Valuable to know this I think. mike 36288 From: m. nease Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Facts and Absolutisms Hi Joop, All this presupposes that your understanding of the Dhamma is superior to that of the ancient ("so-called?") commentators. I admit this is a possibility--not one that's well-served by coarse speech however, even in the unlikely event that it's true. The Dhamma (according to the Suttanta) is bound to decline regardless of the various sects that have arisen since the life of the Buddha, despite "the lack of dynamics"(!) you infer from the Abhidhamma. All of the dynamics in the world (sankharaloka, the totality of all physical and mental phenomena) that are pertinent to dukkha and the end of dukkha are purportedly enumerated in the Abhidhamma. I find this quite plausible and wonder what 'dynamic' you think is missing. Finally, the Dhamma, whether in the Suttanta or the Abhidhamma is neither 'past-directed' or 'future-directed'--it pertains to the present moment, though with obvious implications for understanding past and future events. If you can find support for the idea that "we need more modern commentaries, using MODERN METAPHORES" from any of the texts, I'd like to read it. Otherwise it seems to me that you're simply placing your own opinions and speculations before and above all the Tipitaka, not just the Abhidhamma. Just my opinions, of course--with apologies for my own ill-spokenness. Somehow in spite of my own lofty attainments, I still find my own thought, speech and action to be all too subject to the nivaara.nas. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "jwromeijn" To: Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 2:24 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: On Facts and Absolutisms > But the most important today is something else and maybe that makes > me sarcastic and sharp in parts of my messages. That is the lack of > dynamics in Theravada, the fact that it's too less future-directed > and too much past-directed; the orthodoxy that makes that most > westerners interested in Buddhism prefer the Tibetan or Zen tradition > or only do (vipassana-)meditation without Dhamma at all. And I'm > afraid this lack on dynamcis accelerates the end of Theravada in the > Asian countries too. > The so called 'Commentaries' are a screen between the Tipitaka and > the reception and understanding of it today; we need more modern > commentaries, using MODERN METAPHORES in explaining the Dhamma, not > he metaphores of the daily life millennia ago. > > Metta > Joop 36289 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 0:59pm Subject: Abhidhamma study corner ch 4 Hi there, Looking through Abhidhamma in daily life. Some points I want to bring up: It is said of Lobha-mula-citta, citta with attachment, 'it should be regarded as taking beings with it to states of loss, as swift-flowing river goes to the great ocean.' Should we thus regard all cittas rooted in lobha as just as dangerous and be wary of them? If so, how is it that we decrease unwholesome states and increase wholesome ones? Is it by observing dana, sila, and bhavana? Should it be our objective to recognize unwholesome states and dispel them with the methods the Buddha suggests in the Pali Canon? Or do they subside by mere recognition? Jumping ahead a little bit, how can there be lobha-mula-citta that is not accompanied with wrong view? Shouldn't right view of reality, seeing as selflessness, impermanence, preclude craving and clinging? Or can attachment happen to pleasant sense objects even when seeing their true nature? That's all for now, more to come later. -AL 36290 From: m. nease Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 1:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma study corner ch 4 Hi Andrew, Hope you don't mind my butting in-- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Levin" To: Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 12:59 PM Subject: [dsg] Abhidhamma study corner ch 4 > Hi there, > > Looking through Abhidhamma in daily life. > > Some points I want to bring up: > > It is said of Lobha-mula-citta, citta with attachment, 'it should be > regarded as taking beings with it to states of loss, as swift-flowing > river goes to the great ocean.' Should we thus regard all cittas > rooted in lobha as just as dangerous and be wary of them? If so, how > is it that we decrease unwholesome states and increase wholesome ones? Right effort (sammavaayaama) does this (not we)-- > Is it by observing dana, sila, and bhavana? Should it be our > objective to recognize unwholesome states and dispel them with the > methods the Buddha suggests in the Pali Canon? In my opinion, this is a fine thing to do-- > Or do they subside by > mere recognition? They do, they do! Akusala can't arise associated with knowledge) (~naa.nasampautta)( (recognizing akusala as such e.g.)--or, as you write, with daana, siila or bhavana (assuming the bhaavana is kusala--there is also akusala bhavana). The advantage of pa~n~naa over kusala is that the former erdadicates accumulated defilements while the latter only suppresses them temporarily. > Jumping ahead a little bit, how can there be lobha-mula-citta that is > not accompanied with wrong view? According to abhidhamma, lobhamuulacittaani can be associated with wrong view (di.t.thigatasampayutta.m) or dissociated from wrong view (di.t.thigatavippayutta.m) but not associated with right view. So absence of wrong view doesn't imply presence of right view. > Shouldn't right view of reality, > seeing as selflessness, impermanence, preclude craving and clinging? Yes--for the moment, at least. > Or can attachment happen to pleasant sense objects even when seeing > their true nature? I don't think so. Just my opinions, hope they're of some use. mike 36291 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma study corner ch 4 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > Hope you don't mind my butting in--] Not at all. [snippage] > > Jumping ahead a little bit, how can there be lobha-mula-citta that is > > not accompanied with wrong view? > > According to abhidhamma, lobhamuulacittaani can be associated with wrong > view (di.t.thigatasampayutta.m) or dissociated from wrong view > (di.t.thigatavippayutta.m) but not associated with right view. So absence > of wrong view doesn't imply presence of right view. > > > Shouldn't right view of reality, > > seeing as selflessness, impermanence, preclude craving and clinging? > > Yes--for the moment, at least. > So then seeing the true nature of relaity, *how can there be attachment and clinging!* This is what I don't understand and can't resolve. > > Or can attachment happen to pleasant sense objects even when seeing > > their true nature? > > I don't think so. > > Just my opinions, hope they're of some use. > > mike Thanks mike, alevin 36292 From: m. nease Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma study corner ch 4 Hi Again Andrew, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Levin" To: Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2004 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma study corner ch 4 > So then seeing the true nature of reality, *how can there be > attachment and clinging!* > This is what I don't understand and can't > resolve. Easy one, Andrew--~naa.na, knowledge, only arises for one moment (cittakha.na) at a time. Afterwards, wrong view can still re-arise until the ariyaamagga~naa.na of stream entry (and probably will); delusion can continue to arise (and subside of course) until the bodhi~naa.na of arahantship. So the texts tell us anyway, and I have no reason to doubt them to date. Cheers! mike p.s. Hope I got all this Paali correct. 36293 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:55pm Subject: Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" <> > Whenever any citta arises there is also samadhi. At any moment of > > satipatthana, correct understanding of a paramattha dhamma, > > there must be samadhi associated with it it. That type of > > samadhi is samma-samadhi but it only lasts for that moment or > > moments that insight is occuring. > > Robert, I have had this type of 'insight' or some form that looks > like insight, while meditating on the body, but I wouldn't go so far > as to say that it's a vipassana nana or that it lead to any changes in > my life. > +++++++++++ Dear Andrew, Good you see it wasn't vipassana nana yet. There are many levels of panna (right understanding) but even the first touch of genuine satipatthana is worthwhile. There are other types of panna that are not satipatthana. > > And to nit, wouldnt samma-samadhi be ever-present where the insight > knowledges arise only periodically? IOW, I would think you would have > to be concentrated for some time before insights arise. > +++++++++++++++ No samma-samadhi is anicca, it arises and then falls away immediately. If there are no conditions for samma-samadhi it cannot arise, and it must arise together with right understanding. ++++++++++++ > > > > And reading/considering the teachings helps right understanding to > > develop. > > > > > > This is a big stumbling block for me. I'm not currently at the point > where I can put two and two together and plainly read the texts I have > to put together an understanding. ++++++++++++ It takes time. The pali phrase it cira-kala-bhavana (long time development). You are doing well- already studying Abhidhamma. And that is the basis for helping to understand the profound meaning of the suttas. In the old days Sri Lankan monks began their studies with the Abhidhammatthasangaha, a summary of the Abhidhamma. You know that in the Atthasalini (commentary to the Dhammasangani) it is said that one who studies teh suttanta only can devlop wrong view becuase in the suttas they use conventional language such as 'beings' and 'I' and 'people'. The one who knows Abhidhamma understands that these are mere terms. +++++++++++++++++ > > So we have different ways of putting together right view. When one > understands any of the different subjects that Venerable Sariputta > illustrates in MN9, we have right understanding. But right view is > often said to be a few different things: I understand it to be > absence of wrong view, specifically that things are permanent, have a > self, or a soul, and also the definition sometimes espoused that there > is this world, the next world, fruit & result of good & bad actions, > what is given and what is offered, and preists and contemplatives who > have realized all this through their own direct knowledge. That last > part is a big one to develop a view of. I'd say a lot of mixed view > is possible as the last one is probably a tall order to try to develop > all at once. I've had some success with coming close to understanding > some of the psycho-physical processes like the sixfold sense base and > what have you, just on taking mindful walks, so this is a definite > opportunity for the arising of right view. But again, I will lack a > certain level of confidence in my practise if I am going out there and > not seeing impermanence or selflessness, especially after having seen > it once. Seeing the true nature of reality is important, so maybe you > could understand how I want that good concentration meditation session > leading to seeing the three dharma seals in existence. ++++++++++++++ I like all you said here except for the last sentence. While you believe you have to have this special condition (a good concentration meditation session) you are limiting the opportunities for insight to grow at all other times. Insight can come in very fast and see what is present, and right concentration will be present at that same time. Also the first stage of insight is delimiting nama from rupa. This has to be known deeply before direct insight into anicca, dukkha and anatta can occur, It is all cira-kala-bhavana. > > > > > > Robert, > > I had read the letters and had something to bring up about it but > circumstances required me to leave the house and I can't remember what > it was. No problem, always enjoy discussing with you anytime. robertk 36294 From: plnao Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 3:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma study corner ch 4 Hi Andrew > It is said of Lobha-mula-citta, citta with attachment, 'it should be >regarded as taking beings with it to states of loss, as swift-flowing >river goes to the great ocean.' Should we thus regard all cittas >rooted in lobha as just as dangerous and be wary of them? Ph: From what I understand, subtle forms of lobha are inevitable for all but the Arahant. They are what keep us going through daily life. Nina (in ADL) uses a nice example of reaching for the hot water tap when your bath is going a bit cool. There are even subtler form, I guess. Sitting up a little bit straighter in the chair when you feel a slight discomfort in your butt. (Well, I guess that would be dosa.) Being wary of subtle forms of lobha would make us too uptight to stay open to Dhamma in a relaxed and natural way. I think the other day in your discussion with Robert K he mentioned a period early on when he was afraid to eat an ice cream cone because of his over-eagerness to root out all lobha. I must admit the line you quote sounds pretty scary. There are forms of lobha that lead to harsh kamma. I discovered that this summer. Is it wisdom (panna) that leads us to recognize the difference between the inevitable (at this stage) forms of lobha and the immediately dangerous ones? Metta, Phil 36295 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma study corner ch 4 Hello Mike and Andrew, I enjoy all these answers from you Mike, so just want to add a little more: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Andrew, > .........snip > > Hi there, > > > > Looking through Abhidhamma in daily life. > > > > Some points I want to bring up: ....lots more snipping... > > Shouldn't right view of reality, > > seeing as selflessness, impermanence, preclude craving and clinging? > > Yes--for the moment, at least. > > > Or can attachment happen to pleasant sense objects even when seeing > > their true nature? > > I don't think so. Azita: Attachment can and does happen when there are pleasant sense objects, but not at the moment when there is seeing their true nature. Seeing the true nature of sense objects, IMO, is a very highly developed degree of panna [wisdom] accompanied by sati [awareness] and that moment is kusala, whereas being attached to sense objects is akusala. > Just my opinions, hope they're of some use. > > mike Azita: Andrew, you ask some very pertinent questions, at least for me anyway, they make me 'ponder' on my own knowledge of dhamma. May we all have much patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 36296 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 5:48pm Subject: Sabhava Hi everyone, Sorry for starting a new thread. There's plenty else to discuss, but I am a bit pressed for time, and feel indebted to some very kind people who have taken the time to write to me. And there are some very "core" discussions taking place. And to properly contribute to all of this, I just want to check on a matter of fact. Is sabhava used in the suttas at all? Whether it is or isn't will not lead me to insist that others reach certain conclusions. My inkling is just that sabhava is a post-sutta term. Happy to be wrong :-) Thanks and Regards Herman 36297 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner7-Introduction(d) Dear Phil, I enjoy reading yours posts Phil, feel like I can learn a lot from them. -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > Hello all > > > " When there is generosity, there is no person who is generous, generosity > is a cetasika performing its function while it assists the kusala citta. > When there is attachment, there is no person who is attached, attachment > is a cetasika performing its function. " . ....lots of snips... > "The cetasikas which accompany the > citta experience the same object as the citta while they each perform > their own function." > > Ph: This is something I don't understand yet. How a cetasika experiences an > object. > It seems there would need to be a sense-door citta, or mind-door citta, to > experience > and object. Azita: Yes, true. I'm wondering what other cittas you think there are? How can a cetasika like conceit, for example, or energy (a > universal) > experience an object, I wonder. > > Metta > Phil Azita: hmmmmm, tricky but I'll have a go. Every citta that arises [and passes away] must have an object, and we know that cetasikas cannot arise without citta, and citta does not arise without cetasika - at least 7 - as is the case with a vipaka citta which experiences a sense object. That particular sense object lasts for a least 17 moments of citta [in a sense door process]. During the javana cittas of this sense door process, let's say conceit arises along with lobha. The object is still the same as was experienced by the vipaka citta in this same process, because that object has not yet fallen away. I want to leave it here, at the sense door process, to see what your thoughts are on this. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 36298 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 11:58pm Subject: Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > arise together with right understanding. > ++++++++++++ > > > > > > > And reading/considering the teachings helps right understanding > to > > > develop. > > > > > > > > > > This is a big stumbling block for me. I'm not currently at the > point > > where I can put two and two together and plainly read the texts I > have > > to put together an understanding. > ++++++++++++ Dear Andrew , I quote a sutta about the advantages of hearing/considering (and insighting) Dhamma: http://www.abhidhamma.org/anguttara_nikaya.%20(2)%2020htm.htm Anguttara Nikaya BRETHREN, four blessings should be expected from listening to with the ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration with the mind and penetration of the Norm through insight (1). What four ? Herein, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the Suttas..... Vedalla (2). He thus listens to, constantly recites, carefully ponders over and penetrates the Norm. When he dies bewildered (3) in mind and is reborn in a certain assembly of devas, there the blissful ones recite to him the stanzas of the Norm. Brethren, the arising of mindfulness is slow, but such a being quickly achieves distinction therein.(4) Brethren, this is the first blessing that should be expected from listening to, constant recitation, careful consideration and penetration of the Norm through insight. ++++++++ 1 Diññiyà,. Comy. says 'himself penetrates it by his wisdom both as regards sense and cause.' 2 See suppra, P. 8. 3 Comy. says 'he is still a puthujjana'' One dying without reaching the Paths is said to die with mindfulness not established. 4 Comy`. He becomes nibbàna-gàmin (bound for the goal).' +++++++++ RobertK 36299 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:59am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner9-Introduction(f) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Introduction [contd] ***** The reader may find it cumbersome to know which types of cetasikas can accompany which types of citta, and to learn the different classifications of the groups of defilements. Such details, however, help us to be able to see the danger of unwholesomeness and the benefit of wholesomeness. When we know with what types of citta the various cetasikas are combined we will come to understand the underlying motives of our actions, speech and thought. Detailed knowledge will prevent us from taking for kusala what is akusala. In order to help the reader to understand the variety of cetasikas which accompany different cittas, I shall first summarize a few basic points on citta I also dealt with in my Abhidhamma in Daily Life. Cittas can be classified in many ways and one of these is the classification by way of "jati" (literally birth or nature). Cittas can be of the following four jatis: akusala kusala vipaka (result ) kiriya (inoperative, neither cause nor result) The cetasikas which accompany citta are of the same jati as the citta they accompany. Some cetasikas accompany cittas of all four jatis, others do not. Cittas arise and fall away very rapidly and we often do not know that a different citta of another jati has arisen after the present citta has fallen away. For example, we may think that the present citta is still vipakacitta, the result of kamma, when it is actually akusala citta with attachment or with aversion on account of the object which is experienced. Seeing, for instance, is vipaka-citta. The moment of seeing is extremely short. Shortly after it has fallen away, cittas rooted in attachment, aversion or ignorance may arise and these are of a different jati: the jati which is akusala. ***** [Introduction to be continued] Metta, Sarah ====== 36300 From: dighanakha Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 10:12pm Subject: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Dear dsg members. In the Commentary to the Jataka Ananda the Vulture King says: "Women are not so formed, this man to love and that abhor, They court the man they hate as much as one that they adore, E'en as a ship that hugs alike the near and farther shore. "It's not a case of love or hate with womenfolk you see, It is for gold they hug a man, as parasites a tree." - from the Kunala Jataka Is this true? And was the cuckoo Kunala (the Bodhisatta) right in advising that we not credit anything a woman says? What practical implications do passages like this have for those committed to a fundamentalist hermeneutic in which everything in the Commentaries is treated as infallible? Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me.' (Dighanakha Sutta) 36301 From: dighanakha Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 10:08pm Subject: Kunala Jataka 1 A Tale from the Kunala Jataka's Story Cycle Once upon a time the wife of Brahmadatta, Pingiyani by name, opening her window looked out and saw a royal groom, and, when the king had fallen asleep, she got down through the window and misconducted herself with him, and then again climbed back to the palace and shampooed her person with perfumes and lay down with the king. Now one night the king thought, "I wonder why at midnight the person of the queen is always cool: I will examine into the matter." So one day he pretended to be asleep and got up and followed her and saw her committing folly with a groom. He returned and climbed up to his chamber, and she too after she had been guilty of adultery came and lay down on a truckle bed. Next day the king, in the presence of his ministers, summoned her and made known her misconduct, saying, "All women alike are sinners." And he forgave her offence, though it really deserved death, imprisonment, mutilation, or cleaving asunder, but he deposed her from her high rank and made someone else his queen consort. At that time King Kunala was Brahmadatta, and so it was that he told this story as of something he had seen with his own eyes, and by way of illustration he repeated this stanza: Fair Pingiyani was as wife adored By Brahmadatta, earth's all conquering lord, Yet sinned with her devoted husband's slave, And lost by lechery both king and knave. After telling of the sins of women in old-world stories, in yet another way, still speaking of their misdeeds, he said: Poor fickle creatures women are, ungrateful, treacherous they, No man if not possessed would deign to credit aught they say. Little reck they of duty's call or plea of gratitude, Insensible to parents' love and ties of brotherhood, Transgressing every law of right, they play a shameless part, In all their acts obedient to the wish of their own heart. However long they dwell with him, though kind and loving he, Tender of heart and dear to them as life itself may be, In times of trouble and distress, leave him they will and must, I for my part in womenfolk can never put my trust. How often is a woman's mind like shifty monkey's found, Or like the shade cast by a tree on height or depth around, How changeful too the purpose lodged within a woman's breast, Like tire of wheel revolving swift without a pause or rest. Whene'er with due reflection they look round and see their way To captivate some man of wealth and make of him their prey, Such simpletons with words so soft and smooth they captive lead, E'en as Kambojjan groom with herbs will catch the fiercest steed. But if when looking round with care they fail to see their way To get possession of his wealth and make of him a prey, They drive him off, as one that now has reached the furthest shore And cuts adrift the ferry boat he needeth nevermore. Like fierce devouring flame they hold him fast in their embrace, Or sweep him off like stream in flood that hurries on apace; They court the man they hate as much as one that they adore, E'en as a ship that hugs alike the near and farther shore. They not to one or two belong, like open stall are they, One might as soon catch wind with net as women hold in sway. Like river, road, or drinking shed, assembly hall or inn, So free to all are womenfolk, no limits check their sin. Fell as black serpent's head are they, as ravenous as a fire, As kine the choicest herbage pick, they lovers rich desire. From elephant, black serpent, and from flame that's fed on ghee, From man besprinkled to be king, and women we should flee. All these whoso is on his guard will treat as deadly foe, Indeed their very nature it is very hard to know. Women who very clever are or very fair to view, And such as many men admire -- all these one should eschew: A neighbour's wife and one that seeks a man of wealth for mate, Such kind of women, five in all, no man should cultivate. When he had thus spoken, the people applauded the Great Being, crying, "Bravo, well said!" and after telling of the faults of women in these instances he held his peace. On hearing him, Ananda the Vulture King said, "My friend, Kunala, I too by my own powers of knowledge will tell of women's faults," and he began to speak of them. Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me.' (Dighanakha Sutta) 36302 From: dighanakha Date: Sat Sep 11, 2004 10:09pm Subject: Kunala Jataka 2 A Tale from the Kunala Jataka's Story Cycle (the verses of Ananda the Vulture King) The Blessed One by way of illustration said: "Then, verily, Ananda the Vulture King, marking the beginning, middle and end of what the bird Kunala had to say, at this time uttered these stanzas": "Although a man with all this world contains of golden gear Should her endow of womenkind his heart may count most dear, Yet, if occasion serves, she will dishonour him withal -- Beware lest thou into the hands of such vile wretches fall. A manly vigour he may show, from worldly taint be free, Her maiden wooer may perhaps winsome and loving be, In times of trouble and distress leave him she will and must, I for my part in womenkind can never put my trust. Let him not trust because he thinks 'she fancies me, I trow,' Nor let him trust because her tears oft in his presence flow; They court the man they hate as much as one that they adore, E'en as a ship that hugs alike the near and farther shore. Trust not a litter strewn with leaves and branches long ago, Trust not thy whilom friend, perchance now grown into a foe, Trust not a king because thou thinkst, 'My comrade once was he,' Trust not a woman though she has borne children ten to thee. Women are pleasure-seekers all and unrestrained in lust, Transgressors of the moral law: in such put not your trust. A wife may feign unbounded love before her husband's face; Distrust her: women common are as any landing place. Ready to mutilate or slay, from nothing do they shrink, And after having cut his throat they e'en his blood would drink: Let no man fix his love on them, creatures of passion base, Licentious and as common as some Ganges landing place. In speech they no distinction make between the false and true, As cows the choicest herbage pick, rich lovers they pursue. One man they tempt with looks and smiles, another by their walk, Some they attract by strange disguise, others by honeyed talk. Dishonest, fierce and hard of heart, as sugar sweet their words, Nothing there is they do not know to cheat their wedded lords. Surely all womenfolk are vile, no limit bounds their shame, Impassioned and audacious they, devouring as a flame. Women are not so formed, this man to love and that abhor, They court the man they hate as much as one that they adore, E'en as a ship that hugs alike the near and farther shore. It's not a case of love or hate with womenfolk you see, It is for gold they hug a man, as parasites a tree. A man may corpses burn or e'en dead flowers from temples rake, Be groom of horse or elephant, or care of oxen take, Yet women after such low castes will run for money's sake. One nobly born they leave if poor, as 'twere a low outcaste, To such an one, like carrion vile, if rich, they hie them fast." Thus did Ananda the Vulture King tell of the bad qualities of women, and then held his peace. Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me.' (Dighanakha Sutta) 36303 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:50am Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hello DN_N, all, Gosh! Dighanaka Nutcracker (I got rhythm, I got music ...) you must have been typing away for hours and hours to bring us these obscure (though interestingly salacious and sexist) Jataka tales. I'm still exhausted from the Vesantara Jataka controversy of last year (or was it the year before?). ======================= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dighanakha" wrote: > Dear dsg members. > > In the Commentary to the Jataka Ananda the Vulture King says: > > "Women are not so formed, this man to love and that abhor, > They court the man they hate as much as one that they adore, > E'en as a ship that hugs alike the near and farther shore. > > "It's not a case of love or hate with womenfolk you see, > It is for gold they hug a man, as parasites a tree." > - from the Kunala Jataka > > Is this true? CJF: It may be a case of trying to ask Ananda the Vulture King. Any Abhinnas - like knowledge of past lives? I'm just shattered - Ananda (i.e. The Buddha's Attendant Ananda) has always been my hero - just goes to show that one shouldn't cling to anyone. ========================== > > And was the cuckoo Kunala (the Bodhisatta) right in advising that we not credit > anything a woman says? CJF: Now this is trickier - I hesitate to practise Species-ism ... but, really, what would a cuckoo know? Can't even bring up their own children ... =================== > > What practical implications do passages like this have for those committed to a > fundamentalist hermeneutic in which everything in the Commentaries is treated as > infallible? CJF: I think it was established at that time of the Vesantara Controversy (at least, to MY satisfaction) that the Jataka verses, though a little incomprehensible at times, are part of the Tipitaka, but the Jataka tales aren't. ====================== > Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker > metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 36304 From: robmoult Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 4:04am Subject: Re: Sabhava Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > Sorry for starting a new thread. There's plenty else to discuss, but I > am a bit pressed for time, and feel indebted to some very kind people > who have taken the time to write to me. And there are some very "core" > discussions taking place. And to properly contribute to all of this, I > just want to check on a matter of fact. > > Is sabhava used in the suttas at all? > > Whether it is or isn't will not lead me to insist that others reach > certain conclusions. My inkling is just that sabhava is a post- sutta > term. Happy to be wrong :-) ===== The PTS Pali English Dictionary gives three definitions of sabhava on page 1645: 1. state (of mind), nature, condition Miln 90, 212, 360; PvA 39 (ummattaka-), 98 (santa-), 219 2. character, disposition, behaviour PvA 13, 35 (ullumpana-), 220 (lokiya-). 3. truth, reality, sincerity Miln 164; J V.459; V.198 (opp. musavada); J VI.469; sabhava sincerely, devotedly J VI.486. --dhamma principle of nature J I.214; --dhammatta= -dhamma Vism 238. --bhuta true J III.20 From this, it is clear that the term sabhava is post-canonical (Miln = Milindapañha, Pva = Peta-Vatthu Commentary, J = Jataka) Metta, Rob M :-) 36305 From: robmoult Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 4:10am Subject: Re: Rob M'sTheory Behind The Buddha's Smile ( 04 ) by Htoo Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > Thanks for your reply. Could you please tell me how to save? SO that > I can read even if I am not on line. When you bring up a .PDF file in your browser, a new menu bar will appear at the top of your browswer window. The left-most button is "save". Once you have saved the file on your hard disk, you can bring it up at any time (without your browser) by double-clicking on it. Metta, Rob :-) 36306 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking and thoughts -- status of Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Jon - ... The word 'vi~n~nana' isn't used consistently throughout the suttas. Often it means nothing more than awareness or experience or presence of experiential content. I don't deny the reality of that - anything but. In the scheme of dependent origination, however, the word appears to me to denote subjectivity or the cognitive activity of an apparent subject that apprehends an apparent object (vi~n~nana as subject impacting namarupa as object), the relating of two separate, self-existing and substantial realities, subject and object, and this is the focal point for avijja - this is where avijja does its work. Vi~n~nana as knowing subject (or cittas as little knowing selves) is what I object to. I think the Sheaves of Reeds sutta is one of the most important suttas in clarifying this issue. Jon: The suttas have a lot to say about sankhara dhammas in general, including vinnaana. Dhammas are classified in many ways -- as the five aggregates (khandhas), as sense-bases (ayatanas) and as elements (dhatus), etc -- but however they are classified there is consistency throughout the teachings as to the fact that any arisen dhamma is potentially knowable to panna for what it is (this being the meaning of insight). In the case of, for example, seeing consciousness and visible-object, it is clear from the suttas that (a) these are both are dhammas, albeit dhammas of two different kinds, and (b) at the moment at which visible-object is the object of seeing consciousness each retains its own set of characteristics both individual and shared, so that seeing consciousness is always distinguishable to panna as seeing consciousness and visible-object as visible-object. There is no reference in the suttas to any 'merging' of the two into a single 'event'. To regard the moment of seeing as being in absolute terms an event of which there is no nama knowable to panna as nama and no rupa knowable to panna as rupa (if that is what you are saying) seems to me to be inconsistent with what is in the suttas. You mention the Sheaves of Reeds sutta in this context, and quoted an extract from it in your message to Sarah. In the passage quoted, however, the simile of the mutually dependent sheaves is given in reference to the links in the chain of dependent origination, and I don’t think it can be applied to the occurrence of a single moment of seeing consciousness and visible-object. Besides, elsewhere in the suttas it is said that seeing consciousness arises dependent on visible-object (and other dhammas such as eye-base and contact between eye base and visible-object); nowhere is it said or implied that visible-object arises dependent on seeing consciousness or on any of the other factors just mentioned. (BTW, I do not think we can deduce anything about the basic nature of individual dhammas from an (attempted) interpretation of the teaching on dependent origination. Dependent origination is an extremely complex part of the teachings, and a correct grasp of the nature of dhammas as expounded in the teachings, such as what we are discussing here, is necessary in the first place in order to unravel it.) Howard: Another point that I think should not be overlooked is that the"world" of an arahant - that is, reality - is not the same of the "world" of non-arahants who seem to observe a realm of separate, discrete, yet somehow interacting "things" and "selves". Jon: If we take the actual moment at which visible-object is the object of seeing consciousness, there is as far as I know no difference between the world of the two classes of individual at that precise moment, although the mind-moments that follow are of course radically different in the two cases. Regards Jon 36307 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 4:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flippin off the moon Hello, Joop Thanks for coming in on this thread. --- jwromeijn wrote: > Hallo Jon, Ben and all ... > Joop: I don't agree with that, Jon. > It's a orthodox view on Theravada that is to defensive, not future- > directed. > The Tipitaka (I don't talk about the commentaries) is "strong" enough > it to compare it with other texts. And it is healthy for the > development for somebody conversed (or partly conversed) to Theravada > to read other texts. And I think it's healthy for a "born" Theravadin > too. I have nothing against anyone reading other texts if they feel so inclined, but the question I think needs to be asked, and that I asked Ben, is how one evaluates what one reads in the other texts. > I for example like to study Nagarjuna and read in the book of the > (Sri Lankan born) Kalupahana that Nagarjuna is not a Mahayanist. And > Nagarjuna talks too about "two truths". There is no lack of writings by erudite scholars. But by what standard do you measure the views expressed by these other writers? Do you trust your own judgment in the matter? > You better could have asked, and now I do, to Ben: > What is the disadvantage of clinging to realities? A question well worth considering and discussing. As Ben has not responded, perhaps you would share with us your own thoughts on the subject. Regards Jon 36308 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 4:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Rob Ep --- Robert Epstein wrote: ... > Hi Jon. > I appreciate this discussion. I think it is very easy to fall into > the desire for self-abnegation as a means to enhance spirituality. I > think the Buddha explicitly rejected this as too extreme. In a sense > the quashing of the self rather than seeing it as a formation through > insight makes the self appear to be more real; an "enemy" that has to > be defeated, and can create further ego-games. Yes, although to be exact self is neither quashed nor seen through insight. It is dhammas that are seen through insight, and it is by the development of this insight that the illusion of self is gradually eroded. > On the other hand, I wonder whether you wouldn't agree that certain > practices could be seen as indulging the view of a self and that it > might be more expedient to challenge that view? I'm not sure I've understood you here, but I would say that any practice designed to induce insight or deal with self is likely, given our stage of development, to result in a reinforcing of the idea of self. There is no need to challenge the view of self. With the development of insight into the true nature of reality that view is whittled away naturally; but no amount of effort directed to 'dealing' with that view will be of any useful effect, in my view. Nice to hear from you again. Jon 36309 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 6:09am Subject: [dsg] Re: CSC 4-Introduction(a) [Ken H: "none of the above"] Howdy, Mike. Good to hear an interjection(!) from you. You commented on my point: > > My point is that both those formulations are wrong, but both are > > right enough to be helpful in their own way. The danger is in > > dogmatically clinging to one as "right" and the other as "wrong." For > > me, right now, the "citta experiences an object" works better, but it > > isn't helpful to cling to that as a view. > > On the contrary--as I see it, understanding that citta does indeed > experience an object (with no 'experiencer' behind the event) is very much a > part of conceptual right view. Clinging (upadaana) and right view do not > arise at the same time. Valuable to know this I think. Two comments (that are, as always, working hypotheses that need working over): 1. Conceptual right view? Boy does this sound strange! I know that Buddha makes a distinction between "mundane right view" and "supramundane right view" in The Great Forty (MN 117), but the distinction is apparently between the right view arising with moments of mundane satipatthana vs. right view arising in full path consciousness (according to the commentaries). Right view is a cetasika (pañña) that arises in satipatthana (e.g., see VII, §130 in BB's CMA). It has nothing to do with concepts or the formulation of theories. Is "conceptual right view" something like "conventional right effort"? 2. In my point quoted above, I am referring not to the right view that arises when citta is known directly; instead, I am referring to the descriptions of the understanding of citta. Should it be described as "citta experiences an object" or "citta is the experiencing of an object"? Neither formulation should be taken as a view because right view is an understanding, not a conceptual framework. Dan 36310 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 6:20am Subject: Re: Sabhava Hi Herman, I found 757 sabhâv* variations on the CSCD. Some of the variations occur hundreds of times in the Pali literature. The vast majority of the occurances are in the commentaries (including the Netti and Vism. and many, many others), but there were many from the khuddaka nikaya (petavatthu, apadana, Buddhavamsa, cariyapitaka). I did not find any from the 4 nikayas, though. (However, the books of the 4 nikayas are not listed in the simplest way for quick scanning.) Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > Sorry for starting a new thread. There's plenty else to discuss, but I > am a bit pressed for time, and feel indebted to some very kind people > who have taken the time to write to me. And there are some very "core" > discussions taking place. And to properly contribute to all of this, I > just want to check on a matter of fact. > > Is sabhava used in the suttas at all? > > Whether it is or isn't will not lead me to insist that others reach > certain conclusions. My inkling is just that sabhava is a post-sutta > term. Happy to be wrong :-) > > > Thanks and Regards > > > Herman 36311 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Dear Dan, op 11-09-2004 16:53 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y... > > Another way to express my point is that rupa cannot experience an > object, but nama does. N: Yes. I find it difficult to realize this directly, without thinking. But, as A. Sujin always stresses, we need patience, being aware of the characteristic that appears. Thus, patience and perseverance, not giving up. D: >> D: >> When insight has developed and dhammas are directly > experienced, no >>> words are needed.>> >> >>> Needed for what? I don't understand. >> N: For direct understanding of characteristics of realities. > > I'm still not sure what you mean. Clearly, direct insight has nothing > to do with words or putting together any particular formulation of > words or weaving together this theory or that theory. Discussion of > insight or dhammas does require words, though, and it is good to try > to find words that are helpful rather than words that are not helpful. N: Yes, I agree. For me also it is difficult not to get stuck with words. Beyond the words are the characteristics to be directly known. D: She knocked on the table and asked whether > hardness >> was light or dark. In order to directly experience the > characteristic of >> hardness there is no need to name it, you can call it anything. > > O.K. This is good. When she asked that, my immediate response was to > laugh inside -- no light or dark! But after recollecting hardness a > moment later, I answered "dark," because there is no light whatsoever > in experiencing hardness. N: I think there is still another meaning behind this event. Light and dark cannot be experienced through touch, only through the eyes. We are not used to separating the six doorways. In the Suttas this is emphasized all the time. But how difficult. We mix them all up, thinking of a whole of impressions. Whereas only one characteristic appears through one doorway at a time. When light (or colour) appears, hardness cannot appear at the same time. Citta can experience only one object at a time. Awareness is aware of only one dhamma at a time and this is the way to gain a more precise understanding of realities. Mostly we are taken in by the concepts of people and events, but this is common. How many aeons were we like that? Nina. 36312 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg]space Hi Howard, op 11-09-2004 16:43 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> H: Where is that color? Where does it arise? If not >>> in "mind", then where? In space? Space is concept. >> N: Inward space is a rupa, not a concept, but we do not talk about that now. >> > ====================== > Ahh, but I think we *should* be talking about that now! This may be > the crux of the matter. What is this "inward space"? N: I do not know whether this is helpful for you now in order to understand the impingement of colour on eyesense. It is rather detailed. But, you are welcome. Inward space. This rupa surrounds the groups of rupa. As mentioned in the Vis and tiika (under rupakkhandha) rupas do not arise alone, but in groups. Visible object needs the four great elements as support and other rupas. Space, akaasa, is one of the twentyeight rupas, but it is subtle and far, meaning, not easy to penetrate. But through insight that has been developed it can be directly experienced. Quoting texts I used before, so all this is more like a recap: , meaning, it is not a living being. We read in the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta: "And what, Rahula, is the space element? The space element may be internal or external. And what, Rahula, is the internal space element? That, internally, and individually, is space, void, and clung to, namely: the cavity of the ear, the orifice of the nose, the opening of the mouth, and whereby (one) swallows what is tasted, chewed, drunk and eaten, and where (food) being tasted, chewed, drunk and eaten remains, and whereby (food) being tasted, chewed, drunk and eaten passes out of the body lower down, or whatever else internally, and individually is space, void, sky, empty, an opening, hollow, untouched by flesh and blood, and clung to. This, Rahula, is called the internal space element. But that very internal space element and that external space element are simply space element. Thus "this is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself" is to be seen with right wisdom just as it is. Having seen this with right wisdom just as it is, the mind becomes dispassionate towards (and) detaches (itself) from the space element." ..... Co to the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta: I do not know whether this is enough info. Nina. 36313 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner7-Introduction(d) Hello Phil, good you mention this, it is a difficult subject. op 11-09-2004 14:13 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Ph: This is something I don't understand yet. How a cetasika experiences an > object. > It seems there would need to be a sense-door citta, or mind-door citta, to > experience > and object. How can a cetasika like conceit, for example, or energy (a > universal) > experience an object, I wonder. N: This is a theoretical answer: cetasika is nama, not rupa. Thus, it experiences an object. Since it arises with the citta it must experience the same object. Now all this is very intricate. It is difficult to know the characteristic of a specific cetasika. When insight is more developed the difference between citta and cetasika can be known more precisely. When citta experiences a sense object and it is accompanied by lobha, lobha clings to that object, thus, it also experiences that object. There can be conceit on account of any object, also on account of visible object. When citta with lobha experiences visible object, conceit may also accompany this citta and be conceited on account of that object. BTW energy is not a universal. It arises with many cetasikas, but not with every citta. Seeing sees, it does not need energy. Nina. 36314 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner7-Introduction(d) > Dear Phil, > I enjoy reading yours posts Phil, feel like I can learn a lot > from them. Hi Azita You're too kind. I always enjoy your posts too, and I love your sign off phrase. I think of "patience, courage and good cheer" quite often these days as I realize that 9 moons after discovering Abhidhamma and despite having done a lot of reading, I still don't know what a citta is. Still haven't retained very basic stuff. >> > "The cetasikas which accompany the > > citta experience the same object as the citta while they each > perform > > their own function." > > > > Ph: This is something I don't understand yet. How a cetasika > experiences an > > object. > > It seems there would need to be a sense-door citta, or mind-door > citta, to > > experience > > and object. > > Azita: Yes, true. I'm wondering what other cittas you think there > are? Ph: You see, this is the kind of thing I *still* don't know yet. Haven't retained. For some reason I was thinking that javana cittas are outside the sense-door or mind door processes, that vipaka cittas (resultants) are what happen in sense door process, and javanca cittas are where the fresh, if you will, non-resultant kusala or akusala is produced, due to accumulations, and proliferation. I see now that I was wrong - the javanas are right in there in the sense-door and mind-door processes/is being, before the determining citta. I'm very interested in the point at which sheer sense experience ends and proliferation begins, and I thought javanas had something to do with that. Maybe they do. I've read already 4or 5 times in different books (ADL, Manual of Abh, Rob M's book) what goes on in these processes, and I understand it when I read it, but I don't retain it. That is natural enough when these are cittas that are largely not identifiable in daily life, for the unenlightened at least. No worries. It'll soak in. So, I guess now from what you say above that there are no other cittas that are not sense-door or mind-door cittas, except for "process freed cittas?" Ph> How can a cetasika like conceit, for example, or energy (a > > universal) > > experience an object, I wonder. > > > > Azita: hmmmmm, tricky but I'll have a go. > > Every citta that arises [and passes away] must have an object, and > we know that cetasikas cannot arise without citta, and citta does not > arise without cetasika - at least 7 - as is the case with a vipaka > citta which experiences a sense object. > That particular sense object lasts for a least 17 moments of > citta [in a sense door process]. > During the javana cittas of this sense door process, let's say > conceit arises along with lobha. The object is still the same as was > experienced by the vipaka citta in this same process, because that > object has not yet fallen away. > > I want to leave it here, at the sense door process, to see what > your thoughts are on this. Ph: Well, I know that there has been a lot of talk in other threads about the implications of "object", and I am guilty of not having read those threads thoroughly enough. My understanding of cetasika is still too frail to understand how they have objects but I can see waht you mean about them having objects in the sense of sharing the same object that has been/is being "run through" by javanas, and was the object of the vipaka cittas. Studying "Cetasikas" is going to help my understanding a lot, by exposing my ignorance. Thank you very much for your encouragement, Azita. > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. Metta, Phil 36315 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner7-Introduction(d) Hi Nina I didn't see your post before I replied to Azita. Just home after a very, very, very long day in Tokyo. Sometimes I think it is right effort to apply myself to a bit of Dhamma discussion when I am as sleepy as I am now, sometimes I think it is not a good idea and an abuse of the precious opportunity to discuss Dhamma. > good you mention this, it is a difficult subject. Ph: That is reassuring. >How can a cetasika like conceit, for example, or energy (a > > universal) > > experience an object, I wonder. > N: This is a theoretical answer: cetasika is nama, not rupa. Thus, it > experiences an object. Since it arises with the citta it must experience the > same object. Ph: As Azita said. It certainly makes sense, theoretically. > Now all this is very intricate. It is difficult to know the characteristic > of a specific cetasika. When insight is more developed the difference > between citta and cetasika can be known more precisely. Ph: It will be a long process. I will be studying this book for months, a few years, but even that time will allow me only a basic intellectual grasp. The insight that will bring real understanding about cittas will arise in many years or lifetimes rather than months. It's good I can see that and accept that now. I am comfortable with that now. I think my new interest in deeds of merit and the eradication of coarse defilements is helping me feel patient about subtle insight into cittas and cetasikas. to be honest, I feel intellectual understanding of cittas and cetasikas will condition deeper insight in future lifetimes, though I know you have told me not to limit things in that way of talking about conditions. > When citta experiences a sense object and it is accompanied by lobha, lobha > clings to that object, thus, it also experiences that object. Ph: Ah, experience through clinging. That's clearer. >There can be > conceit on account of any object, also on account of visible object. When > citta with lobha experiences visible object, conceit may also accompany this > citta and be conceited on account of that object. Ph: I can see conceit arising as a result of an associated citta experiencing an object, but I can't yet understand conceit experiencing the object on its own. "On account of the object" doesn't really fill in that blank in my mind. My problem is I am still kind of thinking of cetasikas in an almost biological way, as vice or virtue germs floating around in the mind like those globules in the body in "Fantastic Voyage." (The movie where the scientists are shrunk and sent in a little submarine through a man's body to do soemthing or other.) Still haven't really got it. But I'm not sweating it. > BTW energy is not a universal. It arises with many cetasikas, but not with > every citta. Seeing sees, it does not need energy. Ph: Right. Thanks Nina. Metta, Phil 36316 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:53am Subject: Deeds of Merit - paying respect through speech Hello all More from "Deeds of Merit" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket, available at http://www.zolag.co.uk/meri2.html In the last post, we learned that respect can be paid through body, speech and mind. Today we learn about paying respect through speech, plus a very interesting bit about the way citta conditions the rupa of tone of voice. In the exchange, as used in the book, "W" is Ms. Wandhana Thippewan. S is K Sujin. (I hope "K" is a respectful enough term. I notice Nina uses "A" and other people also use "K" I think K stands for Khun, and is a respectul term.) Metta, Phil S. : Homage through speech is just showing respect by ones speech. Paying respect through speech is, for example, speaking words of homage to the Buddha: Namo tassa Bhagavato Arahatto Sammaasambuddhassa, which means: Homage to Him, the Blessed One, the Worthy One, the Fully Enlightened One. W. : Apart from paying respect through speech to the Triple Gem, can one also pay respect through speech to other people? S. : Certainly. Respectful and courteous behaviour is a way of showing respect through the body. Speech which is polite, gentle and kind is a way of paying respect through speech. W. : By such behaviour and speech we can find out what the nature of the citta is at that moment. S. : If someone is a keen observer, he can notice when there is a change in a persons usual appearance. Even from a slight change in the expression of his eyes, the colour of his face, the tone of his voice or his intonation, it can be known what the citta is like at such moments. The sound of speech is a kind of ruupa which is produced by citta. There are four factors which produce the ruupas of the body, namely: kamma, citta, temperature (cold or heat), and nutrition. 36317 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 8:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. > > O.K. This is good. When she asked [whether hardness was light or dark], my immediate response was to > > laugh inside -- no light or dark! But after recollecting hardness a > > moment later, I answered "dark," because there is no light whatsoever > > in experiencing hardness. > N: I think there is still another meaning behind this event. Light and dark > cannot be experienced through touch, only through the eyes. We are not used > to separating the six doorways. In the Suttas this is emphasized all the > time. But how difficult. We mix them all up, thinking of a whole of > impressions. Whereas only one characteristic appears through one doorway at > a time. When light (or colour) appears, hardness cannot appear at the same > time. Citta can experience only one object at a time. Awareness is aware of > only one dhamma at a time and this is the way to gain a more precise > understanding of realities. Mostly we are taken in by the concepts of people > and events, but this is common. How many aeons were we like that? I know that when she asked that, my initial, rationalistic repsonse was just as you say: "Light and dark cannot be experienced through touch!" But in the experience of hardness, there is a complete absense of seeing, no light whatsoever, complete darkness. So, then, the question arises whether dark can be experienced through the eyes. I don't think I've experienced seeing in complete darkness, and I'm speculating that it is impossible. Sujin's response to my "dark" was [paraphrase]: "[Laughing] That's right. Complete darkness. No seeing at all." Dan 36318 From: Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 4:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking and thoughts -- status of Hi, Jon - Much disagreement on this one, but I'll only give a couple comments: In a message dated 9/12/04 7:33:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > ... > The word 'vi~n~nana' isn't used consistently throughout the suttas. > Often it means nothing more than awareness or experience or presence of > experiential content. I don't deny the reality of that - anything but. In > the scheme of dependent origination, however, the word appears to me to > denote subjectivity or the cognitive activity of an apparent subject that > apprehends an apparent object (vi~n~nana as subject impacting namarupa as > object), the relating of two separate, self-existing and substantial > realities, subject and object, and this is the focal point for avijja - > this is where avijja does its work. Vi~n~nana as knowing subject (or > cittas as little knowing selves) is what I object to. I think the Sheaves > of Reeds sutta is one of the most important suttas in clarifying this > issue. > > Jon: > The suttas have a lot to say about sankhara dhammas in general, including > vinnaana. Dhammas are classified in many ways -- as the five aggregates > (khandhas), as sense-bases (ayatanas) and as elements (dhatus), etc -- but > however they are classified there is consistency throughout the teachings > as to the fact that any arisen dhamma is potentially knowable to panna for > what it is (this being the meaning of insight). > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Terminology is not consistenly used throughout the suttas, the word 'sankhara' itself being a case in point, but I agree that the nature of dhammas, most specifically the tilakkhana, is knowable by pa~n~na. ------------------------------------------------- > > In the case of, for example, seeing consciousness and visible-object, it > is clear from the suttas that (a) these are both are dhammas, albeit > dhammas of two different kinds, and (b) at the moment at which > visible-object is the object of seeing consciousness each retains its own > set of characteristics both individual and shared, so that seeing > consciousness is always distinguishable to panna as seeing consciousness > and visible-object as visible-object. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I didn't deny that experiential content (what you call object) and its presence (vi~n~nana) are distinguishable. All that I maintained is that 'vi~n~nana' in the scheme of paticcasamupada is more than mere experiencing - it is defiled experiencing, defiled by the sense of subject, by I-making. ------------------------------------------------- > > There is no reference in the suttas to any 'merging' of the two into a > single 'event'. To regard the moment of seeing as being in absolute terms > an event of which there is no nama knowable to panna as nama and no rupa > knowable to panna as rupa (if that is what you are saying) seems to me to > be inconsistent with what is in the suttas. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Actually, I think there is. I think that is what "vi~n~nanam anidassanam" pertains to, and I think that the absence of that, the "normal" experience of sentient beings, is what the Sheaves of Reeds Sutta points to. That's the way I see it. I understand that you do not, and I have no problem in the slightest with our differing on this. I think we both have rather strong opinions with regard to this. So long as we each realize that opinion is all that that is and we have the willingness to drop the opinion as easily as we picked it up should we "see the light," then we are in good shape. ------------------------------------------------ > > You mention the Sheaves of Reeds sutta in this context, and quoted an > extract from it in your message to Sarah. In the passage quoted, however, > the simile of the mutually dependent sheaves is given in reference to the > links in the chain of dependent origination, and I don’t think it can be > applied to the occurrence of a single moment of seeing consciousness and > visible-object. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: In my opinion, the scheme of dependent origination best applies to neither the 3-lifetime scheme nor to a single instant, but applies best as a practical matter pertaining to "moment-to-moment mental flux". I agree that it does not apply to a "single moment of seeing consciousness and visible-object". So what? Why should it? But the meaning of 'vi~n~nana' in the context of dependent origination I definitely believe is that of ignorance-conditioned experiencing. And, if I were permitted to know about only one aspect of the Dhamma and be (directly) ignorant of the rest, it would be dependent origination that I would choose. For me, it is the core of the Dhamma. ------------------------------------------------- > > Besides, elsewhere in the suttas it is said that seeing consciousness > arises dependent on visible-object (and other dhammas such as eye-base and > contact between eye base and visible-object); nowhere is it said or > implied that visible-object arises dependent on seeing consciousness or on > any of the other factors just mentioned. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Vi~n~nana and namarupa are mutually dependent. The Sheaves of Reeds Sutta says that. So called visible-object is an instance of namarupa. --------------------------------------------- > > (BTW, I do not think we can deduce anything about the basic nature of > individual dhammas from an (attempted) interpretation of the teaching on > dependent origination. Dependent origination is an extremely complex part > of the teachings, and a correct grasp of the nature of dhammas as > expounded in the teachings, such as what we are discussing here, is > necessary in the first place in order to unravel it.) > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Again, if I had to, I'd keep D.O. and drop all the rest, for all the rest is implicit in D.O. ------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > Another point that I think should not be overlooked is that the"world" of > an arahant - that is, reality - is not the same of the "world" of > non-arahants who seem to observe a realm of separate, discrete, yet > somehow interacting "things" and "selves". > > Jon: > If we take the actual moment at which visible-object is the object of > seeing consciousness, there is as far as I know no difference between the > world of the two classes of individual at that precise moment, although > the mind-moments that follow are of course radically different in the two > cases. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps so, Jon. The thought occurs to me that a worldling is without wisdom, or at least without much, at all times. At the time a Buddha is seeing, is he also without wisdom? But perhaps it is true that there is no wisdom in either case at the time of merely seeing. I agree that wisdom or its lack is a matter of mind, not form. -------------------------------------------------- > > Regards > Jon > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36319 From: Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg]space Hi, Nina - Thank you for the following. I see that I misunderstood what you meant by "inward space." All that you mean by it is space within the body. (As far as I view this matter, this is concept only.) With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/12/04 10:03:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > op 11-09-2004 16:43 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > >>H: Where is that color? Where does it arise? If not > >>>in "mind", then where? In space? Space is concept. > >>N: Inward space is a rupa, not a concept, but we do not talk about that > now. > >> > >====================== > >Ahh, but I think we *should* be talking about that now! This may be > >the crux of the matter. What is this "inward space"? > N: I do not know whether this is helpful for you now in order to understand > the impingement of colour on eyesense. It is rather detailed. But, you are > welcome. > Inward space. This rupa surrounds the groups of rupa. As mentioned in the > Vis and tiika (under rupakkhandha) rupas do not arise alone, but in groups. > Visible object needs the four great elements as support and other rupas. > Space, akaasa, is one of the twentyeight rupas, but it is subtle and far, > meaning, not easy to penetrate. But through insight that has been developed > it can be directly experienced. > Quoting texts I used before, so all this is more like a recap: > > matter. > Its function is to display the boundaries of matter. It is manifested as > the confines of matter; or it is manifested as untouchedness, as the > state of gaps and apertures (cf. Dhs. 638). Its proximate cause is the > matter delimited. And it is on account of it that one can say of > material things delimited that 'this is above, below, around, that'. > > Conventional terms such as cavity of the ear, nose, spaces in the body, are > used, helping us to understand its nature. It seems a mere nothing, like > air, but still, it performs very neatly its function, separating the groups > of rupa. What chaos there would be without it. The groups would not be > distinct, they would permeate each other. Each of the groups of octads, > nonads, decads etc. plays its own part, it is important that they are > distinct. The eyedecad contains eyesense, a necessary condition for seeing. > Nobody can say, be there in time, don¹t fall away, so that you can be base > for seeing. It performs its function, arising just for a moment and then > gone. ... Space surrounds all these different groups. > ***** > Though it is not concrete matter and an asabhava rupa, it is bound up with > concrete matter since it delimits them. It delimits the groups originated by > kamma, citta, nutrition and temperature and therefore reckoned as originated > by these four factors. It arises and falls away with them. It is also called > an element, dhatu, space-element in the Expositor (II, 425). And the Co to > the Abh. Sangaha states:, > meaning, it is not a living being. > We read in the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta: > "And what, Rahula, is the space element? The space element may be > internal or external. And what, Rahula, is the internal space > element? That, internally, and individually, is space, void, and > clung to, namely: the cavity of the ear, the orifice of the nose, the > opening of the mouth, and whereby (one) swallows what is tasted, > chewed, drunk and eaten, and where (food) being tasted, chewed, drunk > and eaten remains, and whereby (food) being tasted, chewed, drunk and > eaten passes out of the body lower down, or whatever else internally, > and individually is space, void, sky, empty, an opening, hollow, > untouched by flesh and blood, and clung to. This, Rahula, is > called the internal space element. But that very internal space > element and that external space element are simply space element. > Thus "this is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself" is to be > seen with right wisdom just as it is. Having seen this with right > wisdom just as it is, the mind becomes dispassionate towards (and) > detaches (itself) from the space element." > ..... > Co to the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta: > In order to point out the derived material phenomena. > Before he had spoken about the four great Elements, not about the derived > physical phenomena. > Therefore, in order to point these out in that way, he explained in detail > the element of space. > He also made known the matter that is delimitated by the internal space. > > ³He proceeds to clarify matter that is delimitated by space. > The Guide explained this so that it was clear to him in that way.² > > > I do not know whether this is enough info. > Nina. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36320 From: Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 5:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi, Dan (and Nina) - In a message dated 9/12/04 11:37:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@y... writes: > I know that when she asked that, my initial, rationalistic repsonse > was just as you say: "Light and dark cannot be experienced through > touch!" But in the experience of hardness, there is a complete > absense of seeing, no light whatsoever, complete darkness. So, then, > the question arises whether dark can be experienced through the eyes. > I don't think I've experienced seeing in complete darkness, and I'm > speculating that it is impossible. > > Sujin's response to my "dark" was [paraphrase]: "[Laughing] That's > right. Complete darkness. No seeing at all." > > Dan > ========================== Dark is the absence of light. Silence is the absence of sound. We can experience darkness, can we not? We also can experience silence. And they are distinguishable!! So absences are realities. The question is: Where are they experienced? I think the correct answer may be "via the mind door". (And yet, doesn't it seem that one actually SEES darkness? I think so. So the matter is unclear.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36321 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:24am Subject: Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > arise together with right understanding. > > ++++++++++++ > > > > > > > > > > And reading/considering the teachings helps right understanding > > to > > > > develop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a big stumbling block for me. I'm not currently at the > > point > > > where I can put two and two together and plainly read the texts I > > have > > > to put together an understanding. > > ++++++++++++ > Dear Andrew , > I quote a sutta about the advantages of hearing/considering (and > insighting) Dhamma: > http://www.abhidhamma.org/anguttara_nikaya.%20(2)%2020htm.htm > Anguttara Nikaya > > > BRETHREN, four blessings should be expected from listening to with > the ear, constant recitation with the voice, careful consideration > with the mind and penetration of the Norm through insight (1). What > four ? > > Herein, brethren, a brother masters the Norm consisting of the > Suttas..... Vedalla (2). He thus listens to, constantly recites, > carefully ponders over and penetrates the Norm. When he dies > bewildered (3) in mind and is reborn in a certain assembly of devas, > there the blissful ones recite to him the stanzas of the Norm. > Brethren, the arising of mindfulness is slow, but such a being > quickly achieves distinction therein.(4) Brethren, this is the first > blessing that should be expected from listening to, constant > recitation, careful consideration and penetration of the Norm through > insight. Robert, this looks somewhat dogmatic to me, to assume that one can be reborn in the devas going on the mere recitation of the texts. Careful consideration is again something not possible for me at this point, I'm not well enough to read through and develop an understanding, as I've said previously, and even pondering over would be difficult for me at this stage. Thanks anyway, Andrew 36322 From: m. nease Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: CSC 4-Introduction(a) [Ken H: "none of the above"] Hi Dan, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan D." To: Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 6:09 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: CSC 4-Introduction(a) [Ken H: "none of the above"] > Two comments (that are, as always, working hypotheses that need > working over): > 1. Conceptual right view? Boy does this sound strange!* Agreed, I don't like it much myself--I'll try to come up with a better expression. Right View is such a huge subject...What I meant though, was that there's the right view e.g. that "Killing living beings is unwholesome" (from MNIX, Sammaadi.t.thisutta); this I take to be a concept and a correct one. In the context of The Abhidhamma, sammaadi.t.thi refers to a cetasika, not a concept. The difference in the Great Forty I take to be between "...And what is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions." (Would you agree that this is conceptual? It seems to me to refer to ideas rather than to 'realities'.) and the path factor, "...And what is the right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path." (This I take to refer to the cetasika, not the concept.) > I know that Buddha makes a distinction between "mundane right view" and "supramundane right view" in The Great Forty (MN 117), but the > distinction is apparently between the right view arising with moments of mundane satipatthana vs. right view arising in full path consciousness > (according to the commentaries). Right view is a cetasika (pañña) that arises in satipatthana (e.g., see VII, §130 in BB's CMA). It has nothing > to do with concepts or the formulation of theories. Thanks for this--I've never really clearly delineated 'mundane' vs. 'conceptual' for myself, this his helpful. Personally I'm inclined to think that there's an entirely conceptual level to a great deal of the Suttanta but I've been told I'm wrong before and I very well could be. At least now I hope you know what I meant, even if mistaken. > Is "conceptual right view" something like "conventional > right effort"? As above, subject to the same proviso (that I'm likely just mistaken). > 2. In my point quoted above, I am referring not to the right view that arises when citta is known directly; instead, I am referring to the > descriptions of the understanding of citta. Should it be described as "citta experiences an object" or "citta is the experiencing of an object"? The way I see it, citta (in the abhidhamma sense) does indeed experience the object. It 'views correctly' rather than 'is the correct view', in other words, I guess I think of it more as a verb than a noun, rather than being something a priori or presumptive. If there IS such a thing as 'conceptual right view (or effort)', it would be presumptive, in the sense of 'formed or conceived beforehand'. Sorry for the clumsy writing--hope my meaning (which I'm not representing as Dhamma--just my take on things) is clear. > Neither formulation should be taken as a view because right view is an understanding, not a conceptual framework. I think I've addressed this to the best of my ability. I guess I would say that it seems to me that 'right view' can refer to (a) a correct idea of what's wholesome vs. unwholesome and so on; (b) the mundane right view that occurs with a moment of satipatthaana; or (c) Right View of the Noble Eightfold Path, something that only occurs with the attainment of magga and phala. If this is correct, then the meaning of 'right view' depends mainly on context. mike *[Remember how strange 'citta' and 'cetisaka' sounded when we first heard them?] 36323 From: robmoult Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:23pm Subject: Basic citta processes (was Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner7-Introduction(d)) Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > R > Let's take a step back here. A "kusala" mental state is wholesome, > > it has wholesome roots of non-attachment (alobha) and non- aversion > > (adosa). The citta (consciousness) and the various associated mental > > factors (cetasikas) are all wholesome. For example, the contact > > cetasika (phassa) in this mental state is wholesome. > > > > Now let's talk about a kusala eye consciousness mental state. This > > is a kusala vipaka mental state. This mental state is not wholesome; > > it does not have any wholesome roots (i.e. no alobha, no adosa). > > These mental states are rootless and are of indeterminate ethical > > value (avyakata); not wholesome, not unwholesome. The contact > > cetasika (phassa) in the kusala eye consciousness mental state is > > indeterminate. > > Ph:: OK. > Would the former be javana citta? ===== Yes, a "kusala" mental state performs the function of javana. ===== > Am I correct in thinking that javana is > the first point > at which "fresh" kusala, if you will, rather than resultant kusala appears > on the scene? ===== You are correct that javana is the stage of the process at which new kamma is created. In a sense door process, the javana stage is preceded by a determining stage. The mental state that arises at the determining stage is functional (kiriya); not kamma creating and not a result of past kamma. The stages preceding the determining stage are the sense-consciousness, receiving and investigating stages; these stages are the result of past kamma. In a mind door process, the javana stage is preceded by a mind-door-adverting stage (again, a kiriya mental state). ===== > > As we know, akusala is much more prevalent than kusala. so let's talk > about that. > So, if I'm correct, there is all this vipaka akusala rising, and then all > this "fresh" javana akusala > arising? Because of proliferation, is there always much more akusala citta > produced in > javanas than the akusala vipaka citta that is fed into the process? ===== Not quite correct. I will give you a longer answer later today. Metta, Rob M :-) 36324 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 5:04pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 Hi Herman. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Ken, > > 2 weeks is a long time, and we're not even in politics :-) > :-) Thanks for resurrecting this message. When I sent it, I was forgetting you would be away (despite your having taken the trouble to warn us). I won't post the reply I have prepared: it gives the same definitions of satipatthana you must have seen here a hundred times before. I should try instead to understand what you are asking me to explain – what part of my message seemed so surprising to you? If I remember correctly, you said `thinking is intention,' and I replied: ============ KH: >> That sounds right to me: whenever there is a concept (e.g., "a tree") then there is intention (cetana) and its associated sankharas. But they are not known at that precise moment. At the moment of "tree awareness" there is no awareness of cetana. So the paramattha dhammas known as `thinking' (cetana, vicara, vitakka, etc.) can be known with satipatthana but not so, "tree." > > ============= H: > Am I reading you correctly, are you sure you mean satipatthana? If so, can you explain that a bit? > ------------- KH: I'll reword it a bit. Whenever there is a concept, there is consciousness (citta) with its cetasikas (including cetana, intention). At that time, the object being experienced is the concept, not the citta nor any of its cetasikas. So there is no possibility of satipatthana at that precise moment. (Satipatthana has a dhamma, not a concept, as its object.) However, any of those dhammas that are present (experiencing the concept) can become the object of satipatthana in the next [mind-door] process of cittas. Is that any more intelligible? (I can see now that the original was not well worded.) Kind regards, Ken H 36325 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 5:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner9-Introduction(f) Hello all, >Shortly after it (the moment of seeing) has fallen away, cittas rooted in attachment, >aversion or ignorance may arise and these are of a different jati: the >jati which is akusala. I've asked Nina about a similar sentence to this before but I'm sorry to say I can't remember her response. My apologies. Is it a bit misleading to say that such cittas "may" arise? Isn't it all but a certainty, except for Arahants, when we consider the rarity of wholesome cittas? Would it be more accurate to say "will probably" or "will almost surely" arise? It's natural for me to think this because it is often stressed in Nina's books how relatively rare kusala cittas are to akusala cittas. Metta, Phil p.s maybe we have different feelings about how probable "may" is. p.p.s some might think that seeing unwholesome cittas as far more prevalent than wholesome ones is pessimistic and disempowering. What's the point of studying Dhamma if that's the case? I don't think so. Understanding the rarity of truly wholesome cittas can motivate us to better understand the conditions necessary for kusala to arise, and make us more sensitive to the opportunities for kusala when they arise. The turban on fire sense of urgency, samvega. 36326 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 5:27pm Subject: Re: Basic citta processes (was Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner7-Introduction(d)) Hello Rob Thanks as always for the helpful explanations. > Not quite correct. I will give you a longer answer later today. Please don't feel any pressure to write today. I'll be having lots of questions for you in this thread and I don't want to wear out my welcome. Metta, Phil p.s needless to say, everybody, jump on in if this topic interests you. 36327 From: m. nease Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner9-Introduction(f) Hi Phil, ----- Original Message ----- From: "plnao" To: Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner9-Introduction(f) > Understanding the rarity of truly wholesome cittas can motivate us to better understand the conditions necessary for kusala to arise, and make > us more sensitive to the opportunities for kusala when they arise. Couldn't agree more--one of the great values of abhidhamma, I think--that is, learning to tell kusala from akusala in a very clear, specific way. mike 36328 From: connieparker Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 10:04pm Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? >> In the Commentary to the Jataka Ananda the Vulture King says: >> >> "Women are not so formed, this man to love and that abhor, >> They court the man they hate as much as one that they adore, >> E'en as a ship that hugs alike the near and farther shore. >> >> "It's not a case of love or hate with womenfolk you see, >> It is for gold they hug a man, as parasites a tree." >> - from the Kunala Jataka >> >> Is this true? > > CJF: It may be a case of trying to ask Ananda the Vulture King. Any > Abhinnas - like knowledge of past lives? > I'm just shattered - Ananda (i.e. The Buddha's Attendant Ananda) has > always been my hero - just goes to show that one shouldn't cling to > anyone. > ========================== CP: Not to worry, CJF - all a matter of every self being "hare today, goon tomorrow". Nothing trustworthy in any case (and gender irrelevant), as the hero himself nobly crowed: "Trust not a king because thou thinkst, 'My comrade once was he'". peace, connie 36329 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Sep 12, 2004 10:23pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Sabhava Hi Rob and Dan, Thanks very much for the information. Kind Regards Herman ===== The PTS Pali English Dictionary gives three definitions of sabhava on page 1645: 1. state (of mind), nature, condition Miln 90, 212, 360; PvA 39 (ummattaka-), 98 (santa-), 219 2. character, disposition, behaviour PvA 13, 35 (ullumpana-), 220 (lokiya-). 3. truth, reality, sincerity Miln 164; J V.459; V.198 (opp. musavada); J VI.469; sabhava sincerely, devotedly J VI.486. --dhamma principle of nature J I.214; --dhammatta= -dhamma Vism 238. --bhuta true J III.20 >From this, it is clear that the term sabhava is post-canonical (Miln = Milindapañha, Pva = Peta-Vatthu Commentary, J = Jataka) Metta, Rob M :-) 36330 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 0:34am Subject: Brisbane Monthly Group - dogs and rebirth Hello All, Yesterday, Sunday afternoon, I was at a meeting of Dhamma friends. One of our members was unable to attend due to the family beagle being hit by a car and killed that morning. Someone left the front gate open and the dog wandered out onto a busy road. Not having met the beagle, I didn't have any strong reaction to the news, other then karuna and wishing our friend and family ease in their distress. But it brought home a sort of a dichotomy between intellectually understanding the Teachings, and living buddhism in daily life. Intellectually, I fully accept re-becoming in any sentient form - but somehow 'other sentient beings' still seem to be viewed much differently. For instance, some others at the meeting couldn't really understand why he didn't still come. The feeling seemed to be that, yes, it was upsetting, but the Dhamma was more important. But they wouldn't have had that opinion if it had been a relative who was killed. Just a stream of consciousness in different form, no? ... We are working through Ron Wijewantha's BPS book on Paticcasamuppada (Dependent Origination)Pt II. One question. RW says that by doing good deeds and keeping sila, one is assured of a human rebirth or higher. I felt that the first level of enlightenment - Sotapanna - was the only safe protection from rebirth in the lower realms, and it took a little more that keeping sila? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 36331 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 0:45am Subject: RE: [dsg] CSC4-Introduction(a) [Herman: "rules of language"] Hi Dan, Thanks for your great post. We agree on a lot, and that leaves only a little bit unsnipped. > I would typify the above *citta as experience* (or removing the > redundancies leaving either just *citta* or just *experience*) as > becoming. Becoming is a process, not a thing. I see. E.g.: Dependent origination is an expression of process or becoming. DO seems readable without needing to evoke subject+object. However, DO is not "citta". In the "citta" formulation, there *must* be an object -- it's built into the system. ================= Things get a little bit muddy depending on how / where citta is used. Citta in early Buddhism is the heart, or the intentional / feeling aspect of being. In this usage there is no sense of a distinction between agent and act. It is only in later usage that citta comes to mean thought or consciousness, with its particular appropriation of nama and rupa, which usage is also quite different from earlier usage. So yes, I agree with you, citta must have an object, but only in the Abhidhamma and beyond. ================= > On the other hand, *thinking about citta* is *becoming attempting to > be*, or *having*. Having creates the subject - object duality. Having is > all about things. Things with nature, essence, characteristics and the > like. So communication about *thinking about citta* is best done in > terms of process, not objects. You lost me, Herman. I agree that thinking about citta involves thinking about objects of cittas. You propose dismissing the citta formulation because it introduces "things with nature, essence, characteristics"? Or, you want to subvert the citta formulation by removing characteristic and object from the notion? I object! It just doesn't work -- at least not in Theravada Buddhism. But "citta" is a Pali term, for goodness sake. No hijacking Pali terms for non- Theravada usage! ================== Citta has never been a Buddhist term only. It was, and still is a thoroughly common Indian word, used by many different sects, in many different ways. I find it very worthwhile to examine how a particular formulation can create the semblance of the independent existence of what it proposes. Nobody doubted the substantiality of "the ether" when it was introduced to prop up other beliefs, until it was looked for and couldn't be found. It is good to come to understand what different schools of thought propose, but reality is what it is, despite the theories. Kind Regards Herman Dan 36332 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner7-Introduction(d) Dear Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > Hi Azita .....snip..... > Ph: You see, this is the kind of thing I *still* don't know yet. Haven't > retained. For some reason I was > thinking that javana cittas are outside the sense-door or mind door > processes, > that vipaka cittas (resultants) are what happen in sense door process, and > javanca cittas are where the fresh, if you will, non-resultant kusala or > akusala > is produced, due to accumulations, and proliferation. I see now that I was > wrong - the javanas > are right in there in the sense-door and mind-door processes/is being, > before the determining citta. Azita; the determining citta [votthapana-citta] actually comes before the javana cittas. I'm very interested in > the point at which sheer sense experience ends and proliferation begins, and > I thought javanas had something to do with that. Azita: An object impinges on a sense door/base and vipaka citta experiences it - not me, not you. It is happening now and javana cittas are arising now, either kusala or akusala. But are you able to tell the difference? Cittas arise and fall sooooooo incredibly fast, you can't 'catch' them - only a highly developed degree of wisdom and understanding will know, and I'm not too sure of this myself, but I think the knowledge of knowing vipaka from javana might just be Buddha-only knowledge. I've read > already 4or 5 times > in different books (ADL, Manual of Abh, Rob M's book) what goes on in these > processes, and I understand it when I read it, but I don't retain it. That > is natural enough > when these are cittas that are largely not identifiable in daily life, for > the unenlightened at least. > No worries. It'll soak in. Yes, it takes mountains and mountains of 'patience, courage and good cheer'. > So, I guess now from what you say above that there are no other cittas > that are not sense-door > or mind-door cittas, except for "process freed cittas?" Azita: Well that was a bit of a trick question. There are other cittas, bhavanga cittas for example. I'm not sure what you mean by 'process freed cittas', I've not heard that before - well not that I remember. I think the rebirth consciousness - patisandhi citta, and death consciousness - cuti citta, are also cittas that arise without a sense or mind door process. > > Ph: Well, I know that there has been a lot of talk in other threads > about the implications of "object", and I am guilty of not having > read those threads thoroughly enough. My understanding of cetasika is still > too frail to > understand how they have objects but I can see waht you mean > about them having objects in the sense of sharing the same object > that has been/is being "run through" by javanas, and was the object of the > vipaka cittas. > Studying "Cetasikas" is going to help my understanding a lot, by exposing > my ignorance. Azita: just remember that it's not your understanding or your ignorance, that knows or doesn't know, it is understanding or ignorance which arises because of conditions and falls away again. No Azita, no Phil just nama and rupa, impermanent, not self and therefore very unsatisfactory because we can't make things happen the way we want. > Thank you very much for your encouragement, Azita. > Metta, > Phil Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 36333 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:31am Subject: Re: Brisbane Monthly Group - dogs and rebirth dear Chris, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello All, > > Yesterday, Sunday afternoon, I was at a meeting of Dhamma friends. .....snip... But they wouldn't have had that opinion if it had been a > relative who was killed. Just a stream of consciousness in different > form, no? ... Yes, I guess so, but we humans consider us humans a cut above dogs, no? > We are working through Ron Wijewantha's BPS book on Paticcasamuppada > (Dependent Origination)Pt II. > One question. RW says that by doing good deeds and keeping sila, > one is assured of a human rebirth or higher. > I felt that the first level of enlightenment - Sotapanna - was the > only safe protection from rebirth in the lower realms, and it took a > little more that keeping sila? A Sotapanna cannot be born in a realm lower than human, but we Puthujjanas can be reborn in any realm, depending on former deeds. 'Keeping' sila is a great thing to aim for, IMHO, but remember that 'keeping' sila is really only a moment of refraining from doing evil. > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 36334 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:38am Subject: More comments on Phil's fabric softening posts Hi Phil, As I mentioned, I wished to add a few further comments to those given by others on some of your posts: 1. Deeds of Merit ============== >K.S. : “Each kind of wholesome deed means actually giving up or elimination of defilements. Kusala which is daana, generosity, is the giving up or elimination of avarice, of clinging to possessions.” Phil> So I wonder if K Sujin “Èeach kind of wholesome deed means actually giving up or elimination of defilements” is tilted towards coarse defilements. Well, avarice, which she mentions, is not that coarse, I guess. I’ll keep learning more as I read.< .... S: At that moment. When there is daana, no akusala. Nothing finally eliminated except by panna arising with lokuttara cittas. Other kinds of kusala (other than satipatthana) support, but without satipatthana, no eradicating at any level as you say. For this reason, I question some of the comments made in B.Bodhi’s article you quoted on how ‘works of merit comes first in the process of inner growth’ etc. As I wrote:S:>I heard K.Sujin on a tape remind people that only vipassana can eradicate kilesa, not even jhana, much less right speech or action without any panna. Because if “that person is still that person, there is no idea of how to eradicate the idea of self”.< .... Phil> Surely I am attached to thinking, to books., to words. If I brought this kind of babbling inquiry to K Sujin she would urge me to consider what is happening *now*.< .... S: You got it;-) ‘What is real now?’, ‘What is dhamma (or the dhamma) now/’. If it’s thinking or attachment, that is what has to be known. As Nina quoted: N:>I found a text in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A.) but in connection with the Brahma viharas, about citta without pañña: < .... 2. “Who are you angry at?” ===================== Phil >Somewhere in a sutta there is the line "who are you angry at? the form aggregate? the feeling aggregate? etc." This is all about understanding annata in theory, in my opinion. That theory has been hugely helpful for me in reducing anger in my life. Theory is gradually leading to deeper realization in practice.< .... S: Yes, understanding dhammas as anatta now at any level is very helpful. This is why a sotapanna with no wrong view of self will no longer have any jealousy or stinginess or inclination to kill or steal for example. 3. Suitable Remedies =============== S:> This time, she stressed more than once: 'Each has one's own way'. Whatever is one's way, develop sati(awareness). 'It's always one's own way - if you happen to be that way'.< .... Ph: >Surely this "right way" will vary, if not day to day, maybe year to year. We are in flux, so the suitable remedy out of the many remedies the Buddha taught will be different day by day or year by year, I guess. I'm interested in the various suttas in which the Buddha goes through a series of remedies. "If this doesn't work, try this" kind of thing.< ..... S: The right way according to conditions at that very time or moment. Whilst following ‘one’s own way’ or taking course a) or b), develop sati. That’s all. If we think ‘we’ can do any selecting or that such a selection will necessarily result in more kusala or even a development of satipatthana, it shows the idea of self and wrong practice again and a lack of appreciation of kamma-vipaka and accumulations. For example, you quoted the sutta on ‘removing annoyance’ starting with loving-kindness. So we can test out that when there is metta, there is no annoyance at all. Understanding the characteristic and value of metta, it will develop, but not by an idea of a self choosing or selecting to have it out of various options. Again, as you suggest,by beginning to understand more about kamma and ‘ownership of deeds’ will be a condition naturally for more understanding and sympathy for others, but not by choosing it as a method or by ‘using it effectively’ as you mentioned, otherwise it’s self again ‘doing’ and wishing to have less dosa for oneself too. I really liked the comments Nina gave from the commentary in her series on ‘Removal of Distracting Thoughts’ about the bhikkhu without strong panna which knows the danger of akusala, ringing the bell so that the bhikkhus would have a meeting to discuss the problems and encourage him to see the danger in unwholesome thoughts. ..... N: >If the bhikkhu is humble and not too conceited to ask advice, he can ring the bell and ask for support from the Sangha. We see here the importance of good and noble friendship the Buddha emphasizes time and again....... .... Paññaa that has become strong by vipassana sees more and more the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala.< .... S: I hope we can all ‘ring the bell’ and offer each other assistance as and when required!! ..... 4. Listening to Dhamma, theory to direct knowledge ======================================= S: You referred to this in a post(36029) referring to ‘staying open to the Dhamma and understanding inevitably arising’ . Nothing is ever certain about the next moment. But again, perhaps we can stress that it depends on the kind of listening, considering, discussing that we’re talking about. ‘Listening’ doesn’t just mean reading lots of texts or sitting in Bangkok with K.Sujin and other Dhamma friends. It has to be with understanding of the present realities, just a little in the beginning, so that the understanding can grow. That’s why it’s always stressed that ‘Abhidhamma isn’t in the book’. 5. Seeking benefits ============= You were discussing the benefits of developing the Perfections (35782). Ph:>I think of the benefits of Metta that we often see taught: one will sleep better, have a nice complexion (is that in there?), be loved by other beings etc. I have never responded to those teachings, perhaps fearing that it would motivate me to seek benefits in an unwholesome way. But maybe I am missing out on something good. Seeking benefits can be encouraging and invigorating in a wholesome way and not a form of spiritual materialism?< ... S: No, I think you are right. Seeking benefits sounds like clinging to oneself again. The sutta is just showing what the benefits are as a matter of fact. Developing metta in order to sleep better would be an oxymoron I think, but we can find out that by developing metta, that this is a result. As you say, a greater benefit is in the ‘gradually getting rid of defilements”. Again, this is a result or benefit, rather than something that should be wished for with clinging once more. 6. Self-preservation ============== From (35814) Ph:>I am always aware that a lot of what I am doing and thinking and my discussions related to Dhamma now is motivated by a kind of self-preservation, a desire to have life explained in a way that makes sense and life pleasant and full of deep meaning. And a lot more is motivated by self-image. There is this desire to be a wise man, to be the kind of person that people turn to for advice the way I turn to you and other members of the group. I see myself with a grey beard and a cool Thai shirt, with a generous smile dispensing wisdom that gives confidence to others. But at least I'm aware of this fantasy. < ... S: Excellent stuff;-) Understanding the various wholesome and unwholesome states as you often refer to is the way not to be fooled that “Oh, it’s Dhamma, it must be pure” , as Dan might say. Thanks again for all the fabric softening touches and friendship on DSG, Phil and also for all your fine reflections. Metta, Sarah ====== 36335 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:43am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner10-Introduction(g) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Introduction [contd] ***** Cittas perform different functions. For examine, seeing is a function (kicca) of citta. Seeing consciousness which performs the function of seeing arises in a process of cittas; it is preceded and followed by other cittas which perform their own functions. Whenever there are sense-impressions there is not merely one citta, but several cittas arising in a process, and each of these cittas performs its own function. It is the same with cittas arising in a mind-door process. As for cittas which do not arise in either sense-door process or mind-door process, they also have to perform a function. The rebirth-consciousness (patisandhi-citta), the life-continuum (bhavanga-citta) and the dying-consciousness (cuti-citta) do not arise in a process of citta. There are bhavanga-cittas in between the different processes of citta. ***** [Introduction to be continued] Metta, Sarah ====== 36336 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Dear Htoo, Thank you for kindly responding so promptly to all my reflections and comments. --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo: Please do not misunderstand. Jhanas are always pure. When > anatta was still not known there were jhana practitioners. Jhanas > exist even before The Buddha. Do you assume that jhanas only appeared > after The Buddha? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Exactly. With respect,this is just why I wrote the following: > S: All dhammas are within the `boundaries of Buddhism'. There > is no > such thing as a `Buddhist jhana' or `non-Buddhist > jhana' in the sense > that the realities, the cittas, have their characteristics and > functions regardless of how they are described or any views about them .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sarah: In terms of the cittas, is there any difference at all in a > samatha development citta or a jhana citta of one who has heard the > Buddha's teachings and developed a little or a lot of vipassana > and > one who hasn't? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Totally different. In what terms? Before The Buddha anatta was > not recognised even in thinking. > > Characterwise, they are not different. [ ?? More confusion? :-)] > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Exactly again. ‘Characterwise, they are not different’. At a moment of samatha or jhana, there is no knowledge of anatta, however finely developed the panna is. .... <...> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sarah: ..for example, but lets say the object -- say breath or > foulness of the body or kasina is the same. What would be the > difference in the cittas which take these as objects? What about the > panna which accompanies these cittas, how is it different? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Every thing is different. But when summarised, characterwise > some fall into the same group. I have told you above. If anatta is > not taught, jhanas will not be the same as in jhanas of anattavadis. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: I believe foulness of the body may have been a bad example above. Let’s talk about kasina as object of samatha/jhana. How are the jhana cittas themselves different ? .... > Sarah: Of course, subsequent cittas will be very different, but we > were talking about the development of samatha and the understanding > required from the very beginning for anyone. > > Intentions or wishes to have jhanas, rooted in attachment, for > example, will be equally useless whether one calls oneself > a Buddhist or not, don't you think? > ***** > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I have included this in one of my message. As soon as > attachment arise, there is no jhana at all. Lobha never accompanies > pannindriya cetasika. > > 'somanassa sahagatam ditthi gata vippayutta asankharika citta' and > 'somanassa sahagatam nana sampayutta asankharika citta' are > completely different. But for those who do not have enough knowledge > and wisdom will not know the difference between these 2 cittas. > > Why? Both are somanassa. Both will be very happy. Both devoid ditthi > cetasika. Both are asankharika cittas. > > If the difference is not known, then miccha-samadhi arises and the > practitioner will attach his miccha-samadhi. Why? Ekaggata cetasika > can arise both in kusala and akusala citta. But miccha-samadhi is > never rupavacara jhana citta. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Exactly so and very well explained. This is why we have to clearly know all kinds of subtle lobha and other kilesa arising after sense experiences in order to develop samatha and why there cannot be any highly developed samatha, let alone jhana without a very highly developed and fine knowledge of these various mental states arising in daily life. .... Metta, Sarah ====== 36337 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) 2 Dear Htoo (& RobM), > Sarah: > In (03), you introduced the term `media' > to > replace his term `space'. I assume (but haven't checked) > he was > referring to aakaasa rupa, usu. translated as space. I didn't > quite > follow your reasoning, but I understand aakaasa to `delimit' > other > rupas. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: This can be tested. Sound does not pass the space where there > is no matter at all. In the water, we can hear sound. Solid brings > the loudest, liquid in the middle and air the softest. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Sorry, I’m lost. Maybe RobM can discuss these points better. I think you may be introducing science into the discussion of dhammas. How do you understand aakaasa rupa? ..... > Sarah:Also for water, you suggested aapo `means saliva'. > Again, this > would be a rather unusual translation. Aapo has the function of > cohesion of other rupas, surely. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: This saliva is the word that I taken from a Venerable. > > In catudhatuvavatthana kammatthana, there are Aapo such as urine, > tear, saliva, digestive secretions, enzymes etc etc. But only saliva > works for conduction of taste to taste buds which again will carry > along taste fibres of nerves to the brain. > > Urine does not work here which is Apo. .... S: Again I’m lost and think you are introducing modern science instead of looking at how aapo and other rupas are explained in the (Abhidhamma) texts. ..... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sarah: Finally, for earth (pathavi), you suggested `nerve'. > You did > say it may not make sense to some learners;-). Again, earth is the > common translation, but it could be solidity or hardness perhaps. > > When we touch the keyboard or door, pathavi is experienced, but even > if we don't touch them, the kalapas of rupas making up the > keyboard > or door still contain these rupas. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: It is not simple pathavi. It is thaddha pathavi. Without which > pathavi-photthabba will not be realised. .... S: Well, it will depend on the vipaka at that moment what is experienced, but whether it’s hardness or softness from the gentlest touch, it’s still the reality of pathavi. Perhaps I miss your point about ‘thaddha’ (hard??) pathavi. .... > Can paraplegic people sense touch in their feet? There do exist > pathavi in their feet. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: As I say, it’ll depend on vipaka what body-consciousness arises and what element is experienced at any time. As you know well, there are eight inseperable rupas which arise and fall away in every kalapa regardless. .... > Sarah: On sanna, you particularly liked RobM's description > of `looking for distinguishing marks.....'. I'm not sure > we could say > that sanna looks for anything. It merely marks and then marks again. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: That is your sense. I totally agree with Rob M here. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Well, it maybe a matter of language, esp. if you mean ‘looking for’ in the sense of recognizing. I’d have to see this ‘looking for’ in a text or the Pali for it;-). Atthasalini: “perception has the...function of making marks as a condition for repeated perception (for recognizing or remembering), as when woodcutters ‘perceive’ logs and so forth.” Metta, Sarah ======= 36338 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) 3. Hi Htoo, this one will have to be a quick one --- htootintnaing wrote: > I refer to these because of our discussions before about whether all > kamma can bring results or whether only kamma-patha can. I understand > other kusala and akusala cetana to fall under these umbrellas. For > example, lobha cittas now as we write or read may act to 'support' > other results. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Now, I understand that you understood. When we were discussing, > I felt a bit strange that you said not all akusala cittas give rise > to kamma and only kamma-patha actions will give rise to vipaka. Now > you got it clear. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ..... S: I believe it is correct that not all akusala cittas give or can give rise to results as I’ve stressed before and that quotes such as the one I gave from the commentary to the A-Sangaha stress this: “a wholesome or unwholesome kamma which, although unable to produce a result by itself, becomes the condition for ...”etc. All kusala and akusala cittas accumulate, but it takes many such accumulated cittas before there is any kama-patha which will bring a result. When RobM and many others suggest that each wholesome/unwholesome javana mental state brings or has the potential to bring about a result, I don’t think it’s correct. Otherwise why have natural decisive support condition rather than just kamma condition? Each moment there is a slight lobha when we look up at the computer screen, it accumulates, but it cannot bring a result as I understand. .... > Htoo: This is for Sammasambuddhas. Even great arahats may not know > what results ( vipaka ) follows from what actions ( kamma ). > > The story of Venerable Culapanthaka is a good example. <...> .... S: Well said and thank you for your clear way of discussing the story. We’ve discussed it in detail before here too, but I like and agree with your stress: .... > Here my aim is not to tell the story. But first Mahapanthaka drived > his brother out. Because he did not know what past actions that > Culapanthaka did, and he did not know that he would became an arahat > with jhana powers. But The Buddha knew everything with regard to > Culapanthaka. ... S: Yes, exactly. Only the Buddha can really understand all the accumulations. How can we think we have any idea about our own, let alone another’s? Well said. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I must also thank you in setting up DSG. ... S: Thanks, Htto. It’s always been very much a team effort and we’ve always been blessed with exceptional contributions from many different members (imho of course). Metta, Sarah p.s I had a few further comment/queeries I was going to add on some other posts of yours, but no time now. In any case, thank you for continuing with the Dhamma Thread series and also I'd like to encourage both you and Sukin to continue your discussions, so that I'm not the only one showing my appreciation of your contributions;-). ====== 36339 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:29am Subject: Re: CSC 4-Introduction(a) [Ken H: "none of the above"] Good evening, Dan (Phil and Sarah), You wrote: ------------- Good morning, Ken! I don't have any idea whether or not it's morning when you are reading this, but the sun is now up here. > ------------- It's funny you should mention that: I was going to make a similar comment to you and Phil. Our messages were crossing: no sooner would I post one than I'd find the two of you had rendered it obsolete. I was going to ask, "DON'T YOU PEOPLE EVER SLEEP?" but went to bed instead. :-) The "citta experiences an object" debate has run its course, I think. Any lingering doubts will be quashed by Sarah's answer to your definitive question. Sorry about the mix-up over grades. You have every right to whinge, but I wasn't expecting you to tick two boxes. :-) You, Phil, Bhikkhu Bodhi and myself, each get a B-. You are having a great discussion with Mike at the moment. I am tempted to put an oar in the water again, but no quizzes, I promise. Kind regards, Ken H 36340 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:36am Subject: Re: Theory and Practice _Sukin & Htoo Dear Sukin, Thank you very much for your full response. Your message makes me untired. It made me untired. After these three sentences you will see that I used 'makes' in the second sentence. I agree with you word by word. Here below, I reply your post as inline text response. I must apologise that I was busy since Thursday and I now see your post because of Sarah's reminder off-line. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" :-) You are welcome anytime to respond to any of my posts Htoo. I value your wisdom highly, so it can only be good for me to hear your comments. So thanks very much for responding here. Besides already it has been so many days that you wrote me off-list and I haven't found the time to respond to you yet, so this is good excuse to write something now. Now I go to other parts of your post. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am glad that you responded. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >I met a monk who was strongly believed to be an arahat. He was ...snip... just note want to look and then look at, and note all the present. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I think it takes a long time through close association, for a serious putthujana to come to any correct estimation of another's level of understanding, namely in terms of Right View. I know that you have an excellent knowledge and understanding of the Teachings and so are equipped with the necessary tool to assess the monk. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sukin, I was not assessing that monk. I was just retrospectively making comments. He passed away long time ago. And I was not as learned as I have been now. I just mentioned this because those who seem to attain higher nana ( I say seem to be because I do not know ) give their wisdom or share their experience in a subtle way. They will not say, 'I am an arahat, I am an anagam, listen to me, this is my experience and if you follow this you will see as I see'. I mean latter arahats. The Buddha did declare that He became a Sammasambuddha to pancavaggi, the first five disciples. I do not know much about vinaya, but I know that monks do not have to declare or announce that they are such and such attainers. The monk in my story did not mention anything like declaration or announcement. What I had heard was that he did not lie flat on his back in his final years ( more than 13 years not lying on bed ). He did that but not as a ritual. He was calm and he just preached some part of mahasatipatthana. You may like him, because I think he seemed to preach to practise mahasatipatthana in daily life. I remember that the Venerable preached that, 'When you are on board like a ship or boat or ferry, you have to note 'moving..moving, sitting..sitting'. He preached that for lay people. Whenever a person reaches a state they would suggest others to practise. Later on they move to higher level and this urge changes a bit. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: > Even though I did not know whether they were ariyas or arahats, they > were well calm and free of anything that you would accuse them of. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Do you think it is possible that the conditions are such that some person will remain calm and peaceful for a long time, but the kilesas are in fact still quite intact? And when they expound the dhamma, it comes from sanna more than from panna? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here I have to express in two different forms. One is my own response that comes from my wisdom. The second is from my learned knowledge. 1. I do not think it is possible that the conditions are such that some person will remain calm and so and so. I do not think they expound the dhamma coming from their sanna. 2. Pure jhana without development of any vipassana nana can calm down kilesa as long as jhana overwhelms. They will be calm and peaceful for a long time. But kilesa are still there as anusaya. Here exposition of the dhamma may well be sanna or may be partly from panna. I stick to 1 while 2 is still possible. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: It didn't come to my mind at that time about paccekabuddhas, thanks for reminding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Actually Paccekabuddhas-to-be have learned a lot in their previous lives. But they do not have any teachers in their final life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Good to hear about those who encourage mahasatipatthana in daily life. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You will notice that I wrote in different styles. Some say that I am writing impossible practice. I do not think so. As soon as we wake up in the bed and as soon as consciousness orientates that we are still alive and come to know the world again after a long rest of sleep, mahasatipatthana can be started. This can go through out the day till we are back again in the bed just before going into sleep again. For me, I am not boasting, I sometimes do practise even when I am speaking to someone for some time. That is knowing of my thinking, my intension, my word searching, my lip movement and so on. Here I just include 'my' for communication otherwise Sarah may smile. Yes. Mahasatipatthana should be our part of life and it should be in daily life. But we should not abandon the formal practice. When I write this, I am thinking that you may disagree. Once I saw Sujin's writing regarding this. I noticed that Sujin was clear to express. But pupils took differently. Nina is straight forward. But cerain pupil is not. I would say mahasatipatthana should be in our daily life. On the other hand, formal practice should be practised. The Buddha stayed in phalasamapatti. Great arahats stayed in phalasamapatti. Many arahats stayed in phalasamapatti. Some arahats sometimes stayed in nirodha sapamatti. If someone is aversive to formal practice, I would feel pity for him or her. But clinging to formal practice without full understanding of implication may sound like rituals as Sujin said. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: Forget about `wrong view', but do these people even know > about >`avijja'!! They talk about experiencing the vipassana nanas, and yet > > when it comes to knowing seeing, hearing, smelling and so on, they do not find it important enough to consider these. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: The right view starts with understanding of avijja. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Yes, only the Buddha taught about the danger of avijja, other religions can see the danger only in lobha, dosa and mana and the value of metta, karuna, dana, sila and so on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is very true. Only The Buddha way is the way for liberation. There are some people of other religions that they love to learn Buddhism. But I am not persuading them as other do. What I do is that I talk with them and I just mention in a logical way. Most become happy. I do not say them to desert their original practice. Some agreed my discussions. But when I say about anatta, some become shocked especially those who believe to become mahabrahama is their goal. First they agreed because they agreed on purification of sins. But when I said mahabrahmas do have their lifespans and if their life span expired they have to be reborn in kama bhumi, they became a bit annoyed. But we did not quarrel as I knew the turn of their feeling at that time. This is because of avijja. If avijja is not cleared, purification will not be everlasting. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: But Avijja!! It is just darkness! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sukin: It is ignorance as in `ignoring' these very presently arising > > realities that causes them to cling to rites and rituals "formal > > meditation", and be deluded by illusory results. > Htoo: This is the site where there is obstruction and deters the progress. >Sukin: Glad that you agree. (-: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. But please read more above regaring this issue. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: They are in fact encouraging ignorance though otherwise they >claim to practice in order to "know". >Htoo: How do you suggest here, Sukin? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: When someone points to the formal practice and does not give due importance to whatever dhammas that arise at other times, this means that those other moments are being conditioned by ignorance. And as you said above, "The right view starts with understanding of avijja", this would seem then that they would unlikely have Right Understanding even during formal practice. So I think we can conclude on the whole that whatever their view of practice is, it must on the whole condition more avijja and wrong view. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I think one mistake many Buddhists make, is to think that the mind must first be calm or wholesome or one pointed before dhammas can be known to any degree. Many don't understand the significance of the relationship between, pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: i like this explanation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: In addition to this, there is the idea that the `deliberate looking'(intentional observation) actually leads to `seeing' (sati), or worse, that it *is* sati. All this it seems is failure at the level of pariyatti itself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. But I may come to this later. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Because of this lack of pariyatti, here referring to the panna of this level, there is misunderstanding of what practice involves. Pariyatti is not the `verbal knowledge' but indeed the level of understanding which *knows* at least the value of developing satipatthana and that this very moment is conditioned and anatta. And though it may only be `thinking' in the beginning about just fallen away dhammas, it knows that what ever level of panna arises is just what is meant to be, and with this is already some detachment. And in this case, more understanding about conditionality and anatta is accumulating as sankhara. Which is why, without correct pariyatti and knowing conditioned realities in daily life, one will be deluded into thinking that *more* can be achieved through some deliberate effort on one's part via some formal practice or `deliberate looking'. And this is to go against the principal of anatta and conditionality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are so clear Sukin. Thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: This is how it seems to me Htoo, what do you think? Again, thank you for your response and giving me a chance to learn something of your understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have talked much above. Now it should be clear what is my view. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Thanks for you invitation to DSG about 18 months ago, if I remember truely. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Metta, > > Sukin 36341 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:54am Subject: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) >Htoo: Totally different. In what terms? Before The Buddha anatta was not recognised even in thinking. Characterwise, they are not different. [ ?? More confusion? :-)] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Exactly again. `Characterwise, they are not different'. At a moment of samatha or jhana, there is no knowledge of anatta, however finely developed the panna is. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If anatta is not known, citta on anatta will never arise. Panna of knowledge that there is anatta is only taught by The Buddha. With this knowledge when the practitioner attain jhana as he is well calm he can then clearly see dhamma as it is. After eradication, there is no more anusaya in jhana of arahats who are Buddhists. But jhanas attained before The Buddha there were full anusaya behind them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Every thing is different. But when summarised, characterwise some fall into the same group. I have told you above. If anatta is not taught, jhanas will not be the same as in jhanas of anattavadis. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: I believe foulness of the body may have been a bad example above. Let's talk about kasina as object of samatha/jhana. How are the jhana cittas themselves different ? .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The question is not that clear. But I must say all rupa jhanas take the object panatta. They cannot take paramattha dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Exactly so and very well explained. This is why we have to clearly know all kinds of subtle lobha and other kilesa arising after sense experiences in order to develop samatha and why there cannot be any highly developed samatha, let alone jhana without a very highly developed and fine knowledge of these various mental states arising in daily life. .... >Metta, >Sarah ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Your last paragraph is not clear for me. If you could rephrase them, I may be able to discuss on your points. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36342 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:17am Subject: Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) > Htoo: This can be tested. Sound does not pass the space where there is no matter at all. In the water, we can hear sound. Solid brings the loudest, liquid in the middle and air the softest. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Sorry, I'm lost. Maybe RobM can discuss these points better. I think you may be introducing science into the discussion of dhammas. How do you understand aakaasa rupa? ..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If you are equipped with breathing apparatus and you are put in a thick glass vaccum, will you be able to hear sound producing outside of that thick glass vaccum where you are in side? Aakaasa as rupa is everywhere. Akasa is not included in rupa kalapa and they are not counted even though there are akasa among rupa kalapas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Urine does not work here which is Apo. .... S: Again I'm lost and think you are introducing modern science instead of looking at how aapo and other rupas are explained in the (Abhidhamma) texts. ..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Once a venerable monk said aapa as a word which is saliva rather than water element. If all salivary glands are removed and just water is put, do you think this will bring a full sense as in case of normal people? This is not my word. This came from a learned Buddhist monk. Aapa means saliva. In Pali Apo may means 1.element water which is cohesion 2. drinking water. Another word for water is udaka. Do you know Pali words for 1. tear 2. saliva 3. urine 4. blood 5. fat 6. pus etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: It is not simple pathavi. It is thaddha pathavi. Without which pathavi-photthabba will not be realised. .... S: Well, it will depend on the vipaka at that moment what is experienced,but whether it's hardness or softness from the gentlest touch, it's still the reality of pathavi. Perhaps I miss your point about `thaddha' (hard??) pathavi. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If you see a man in an operating theatre where one of his his nerves is exposed by minor operation and the nerve is connected to Galvanometre and ask the man whether he knows the touch he would say yes while his body part where that nerve supplies is repeatedly tapped. When the nerve is anaesthetised he would not say yes, because the conducting nerve is already blocked. The conditions are there. He has his body parts. He is conscious. There is touch object repeatedly tapping him. Again this word 'thaddha-pathavi is the word of one of well learned venerables. Not of mine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Can paraplegic people sense touch in their feet? There do exist pathavi in their feet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: As I say, it'll depend on vipaka what body-consciousness arises and what element is experienced at any time. As you know well, there are eight inseperable rupas which arise and fall away in every kalapa regardless. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sarah: On sanna, you particularly liked RobM's description > > of `looking for distinguishing marks.....'. I'm not sure > > we could say > > that sanna looks for anything. It merely marks and then marks again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: That is your sense. I totally agree with Rob M here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: Well, it maybe a matter of language, esp. if you mean `looking for' in the sense of recognizing. I'd have to see this `looking for' in a text or the Pali for it;-). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. sanna is not = looking for. But what Rob M demonstartes makes full sense. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Atthasalini: "perception has the...function of making marks as a condition for repeated perception (for recognizing or remembering), as when woodcutters `perceive' logs and so forth." > Metta, > Sarah ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Do you think sanna is memory? With Metta, Htoo Naing 36343 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:31am Subject: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) ..... S: I believe it is correct that not all akusala cittas give or can give rise to results as I've stressed before and that quotes such as the one I gave from the commentary to the A-Sangaha stress this: "a wholesome or unwholesome kamma which, although unable to produce a result by itself,becomes the condition for ..."etc. All kusala and akusala cittas accumulate, but it takes many such accumulated cittas before there is any kama-patha which will bring a result. When RobM and many others suggest that each wholesome/unwholesome javana mental state brings or has the potential to bring about a result, I don't think it's correct. Otherwise why have natural decisive support condition rather than just kamma condition? Each moment there is a slight lobha when we look up at the computer screen, it accumulates, but it cannot bring a result as Iunderstand. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now you come back to kamma patha. It is fine if you understand both. There are many vipaka cittas in our daily sense door process. But kamma patha when give rise its full effect, it is a great event like storm, floods, great fire, earthquakes and many other disasters. But when you are now sitting and reading up my messages, in between your understanding through your mind-door process there are also 5- sense-door-processes. These are also vipaka cittas like cakkhuvinnana, sampaticchana, santirana, tadarammana, bhavanga etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: This is for Sammasambuddhas. Even great arahats may not know what results ( vipaka ) follows from what actions ( kamma ). The story of Venerable Culapanthaka is a good example. <...> .... S: Well said and thank you for your clear way of discussing the story. We've discussed it in detail before here too, but I like and agree with your stress: .... > Here my aim is not to tell the story. But first Mahapanthaka..snip..But The Buddha knew everything with regard to Culapanthaka. ... S: Yes, exactly. Only the Buddha can really understand all the accumulations. How can we think we have any idea about our own, let alone another's? Well said. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Even The Buddha did not follow all citta for all sattas. As Minlinda mentioned, Sabbannuta nana knows when it attends. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: I must also thank you in setting up DSG. ... S: Thanks, Htto. It's always been very much a team effort and we've always been blessed with exceptional contributions from many different members (imho of course). Metta, Sarah p.s I had a few further comment/queeries I was going to add on some other posts of yours, but no time now. In any case, thank you for continuing with the Dhamma Thread series and also I'd like to encourage both you and Sukin to continue your discussions, so that I'm not the only one showing my appreciation of your contributions;-). ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have replied Sukin today. Thanks again. With Metta, Htoo Naing 36344 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:12am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 059 ) Kasina means 'wholeness'. There are 10 kasina kammatthana. 1. pathavi kasina ( earth-substance ) 2. tejo kasina ( fire-flame ) 3. vayo kasina ( wind-movement ) 4. apo kasina ( water-substance ) 5. nila kasina ( dark-coloured object like brown ) 6. pita kasina ( golden-yellow ) 7. lohita kasina ( red ) 8. odata kasina ( white ) 9. aloka kasina ( light ) 10.akasa kasina ( bounded space ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Dhamma Friends, I think this topic has been discussed previously. Christine involved well. If not at DSG, it may be in dhamma-list. Regarding nila kasina, there are a lot of controversies. Western Buddhist monks translate it as 'blue'. I think, in A. Sujin notes say 'green'. In Myanmar, this kasina nila is known as brown. In religious robes, there are white, red, yellow, and brown in Myanmar. White is adorn by those who take 5 precepts permanently that is as long as they are in white robe, which is a kasina colour. Red and yellow robes are worn by Buddhist monks bhikkhus. They are also kasina colours. Brown robe is worn by some Buddhist monks bhikkhus. Non-Buddhist hermits wear brown robes as their robe, which seems to be a kasina colour. There is no blue robe in Myanmar Buddhists. I do not know western culture. I do not know why some wrote nila as 'green'. Here, I write as dark colour object to cover all. Actually nila kasina is used in abhinna when darkness is needed. Example can be seen in Yassa and his father. Yassa was sitting beside of his father who had been searching for Yassa. Yassa, a sotapam at that moment was listening to The Buddha preaching to his father. At that time, The Buddha used nila kasina so that the father of Yassa did not see Yassa. If the father saw his son, his attchement and tanha would not allow him developing of such higher nana. The Buddha just used nila kasina and the father did not see the son and so he could listen to The Buddha teaching without arising of attachment to his son. Anyone can assume as they like. But I think brown is much darker than blue. Green is even more lighter than blue and green is far away from brown. With Metta, Htoo Naing 36345 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Dear Howard, Good Point! Hardness is both completely dark and completely silent. Beyond that, I don't follow you. Dan > Dark is the absence of light. Silence is the absence of sound. We can > experience darkness, can we not? We also can experience silence. And they are > distinguishable!! So absences are realities. The question is: Where are they > experienced? I think the correct answer may be "via the mind door". (And yet, > doesn't it seem that one actually SEES darkness? I think so. So the matter is > unclear.) > > With metta, > Howard 36346 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:33am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 060 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, When in 5th rupa jhana of lohita kasina, the object is patibhaga nimitta. It is shining brightly red colour filling the whole universe as the practitioner has expanded it. It is boundless and limitless. Through the exercises, he becomes to realise that there is danger of rupa that he has based. As rupa are the source of kama arammana, it may at any time bring him down to 4th jhana, 3rd, 2nd, 1st and back to kamavacara cittas. The 5th rupa jhana is well calm but not free of rupa and this may bring him down to 4th jhana with sukha and down to kamavacara again. So he starts to dispassionate on rupa and he will try his 5th jhana again without rupa. The universe is filled with red. As rupa is dispassionated, it has to be voided. He will try harder and harder. At a time the whole universe will be void of any lohita kasina. As this lohita kasina is devoided, there left empty space. That space is boundless space and that space is limitless. His mind is at that boundless space. As the place where deva dwell is called deva ayatana, this space where his mind dwells is also called aayatana. As it is boundless space or akasa, it is called akasananca ayatana. This space is not the space as usual. But it is the idea and it is pannatta. This space, the idea has arisen from lohita kasina. So this object is also pannatta and not paramattha dhamma. When the practitioner attends that boundless space with ekaggata only as jhana factor and as there is no rupa involved, his is said to be in jhana again. This jhana which does not have any rupa is called arupa jhana. The object is akasanancayatana or boundless space. So the jhana is also called akasanancayatana arupa jhana. The citta that sees this object arises once and bhavanga cittas follow. After that the practitioner becomes an akasanancayatana jhanalabhi. This jhana citta is called akasanancayatana arupa jhana arupakusala citta. If such jhana citta arises in arahats, it is called akasanancayatana arupa jhana arupakiriya citta. Arahats will never be reborn. But other who attain akasanancayatana arupa jhana will be reborn in arupa bhumi called akasanancayatana arupa bhumi. When reborn in this bhumi, akasanancayatana arupa jhana arupavipaka citta arises. The 70th citta is akasanancayatana arupa jhana arupakusala citta. The 74th citta is akasanancayatana arupa jhana arupavipaka citta. And the 78th citta is akasanancayatana arupa jhana arupakiriya citta. All these three cittas take panatta as their object that is the idea of boundless space. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36347 From: m. nease Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 6:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Dear Sarah and Htoo, My problem with this in the past has simply been the meaning of the word 'result'. Reading in English I haven't always taken it to mean 'vipaaka', so future natural decisive support condition could've been 'a result'. So my question is, when we read ""a wholesome or unwholesome kamma which, although unable to produce a result by itself,", was the original Paali here 'vipaaka'? mike > becomes the condition for ..."etc. ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 3:03 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) > 3. > Hi Htoo, > > this one will have to be a quick one > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > I refer to these because of our discussions before about whether all > > kamma can bring results or whether only kamma-patha can. I understand > > other kusala and akusala cetana to fall under these umbrellas. For > > example, lobha cittas now as we write or read may act to 'support' > > other results. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: Now, I understand that you understood. When we were discussing, > > I felt a bit strange that you said not all akusala cittas give rise > > to kamma and only kamma-patha actions will give rise to vipaka. Now > > you got it clear. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ..... > S: I believe it is correct that not all akusala cittas give or can give > rise to results as I've stressed before and that quotes such as the one I > gave from the commentary to the A-Sangaha stress this: "a wholesome or > unwholesome kamma which, although unable to produce a result by itself, > becomes the condition for ..."etc. All kusala and akusala cittas > accumulate, but it takes many such accumulated cittas before there is any > kama-patha which will bring a result. When RobM and many others suggest > that each wholesome/unwholesome javana mental state brings or has the > potential to bring about a result, I don't think it's correct. Otherwise > why have natural decisive support condition rather than just kamma > condition? Each moment there is a slight lobha when we look up at the > computer screen, it accumulates, but it cannot bring a result as I > understand. 36348 From: Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi, Dan - In a message dated 9/13/04 8:19:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, onco111@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > Good Point! Hardness is both completely dark and completely silent. > Beyond that, I don't follow you. > > Dan > > > Dark is the absence of light. Silence is the absence of > sound. We can > >experience darkness, can we not? We also can experience silence. > And they are > >distinguishable!! So absences are realities. The question is: Where > are they > >experienced? I think the correct answer may be "via the mind door". > (And yet, > >doesn't it seem that one actually SEES darkness? I think so. So the > matter is > >unclear.) > > > >With metta, > >Howard ============================== I'm sorry that I'm being obscure. I'm afraid I don't know how to clarify the matter. so, I guess we'll just let it go. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36349 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 6:17am Subject: Re: CSC 4 [Mike: "conceptual right view" and a QUIZ] Interesting topic, Mike. Here's my take on it. The Buddha's formulation of mundane right view (The Great Forty, MN 117): "'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions." SUre, you can interpret this as concept, but I don't think this would be proper. On a quick reading I find three compelling pieces of evidence against it. First, in 117:4 he says: "One understands wrong view as wrong view and right view as right view: this is one's right view." Wouldn't you agree that this formulation suggests "understanding reality" rather than "thinking about it and coming to accept a certain concept"? Then, in 117:6 he says: "Right view, I say, is twofold..." If the "There is what is given..." formulation is to be taken conceptually and the supramundane right view is noble path consciousness, there is no room for right view in mundane satipatthana! (Unless it is conceptual right view in satipatthana, but it surely is not.) Third, the commentaries suggest a cetasika interpretation rather than a concept interpretation. As BB writes in note 1100 (MLDB): "MA says that two kinds of right view are forerunners: the right view of insight, which investigates formations as impermanent, suffering and non-self; and the right view of the path, which arises as a consequence of insight and effects the radical destruction of the taints." And in 1101: "...in order to acquire right view about the nature of reality, one must first be able to distinguish between wrong and right teachings on the nature of reality [I'd say that this can't be done rationally or conceptually, but only through direct understanding in the opening stages of vipassana]. MA says that this is the right view of insight which understands wrong view as an object by penetrating its characteristics of impermanence, etc., and which understands right view by exercising the function of comprehension and by clearing away confusion." This sounds like pañña as cetasika rather than as a correct proliferation of theories. On your second point: > The way I see it, citta (in the abhidhamma sense) does indeed experience the > object. It 'views correctly' rather than 'is the correct view', in other > words, I guess I think of it more as a verb than a noun, rather than being > something a priori or presumptive. Well put. I agree. > > Neither formulation should be taken as a view because right view is an > understanding, not a conceptual framework. > > I think I've addressed this to the best of my ability. I guess I would say > that it seems to me that 'right view' can refer to (a) a correct idea of > what's wholesome vs. unwholesome and so on; (b) the mundane right view that > occurs with a moment of satipatthaana; or (c) Right View of the Noble > Eightfold Path, something that only occurs with the attainment of magga and > phala. If this is correct, then the meaning of 'right view' depends mainly > on context. Let's rephrase it as a multiple choice: "Right view" as a Dhamma term can refer to are: a. A correct idea of what's wholesome vs. unwholesome and so on (i.e., "conceptual right view"); b. The mundane right view that occurs with a moment of mundane satipatthaana; or c. Right View of the Noble Eightfold Path, something that only occurs with the attainment of magga and phala. d. All of the above e. (b) and (c) only f. Other (explain) I choose e. Dhamma is not about formulating and defining the "correct" concepts, but, rather, about understanding reality. Dan 36350 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] CSC4-Introduction(a) [Herman: "rules of language"] Good morning, Herman. You write: "Citta in early Buddhism is the heart, or the intentional / feeling aspect of being....I agree with you, citta must have an object, but only in the Abhidhamma and beyond." Huh? Not sure what you mean by "intentional/feeling aspect of being" or "early Buddhism". Don't you see much of the second volume of SN writing about objects of citta? > Nobody doubted the substantiality of "the ether" when it was introduced > to prop up other beliefs, until it was looked for and couldn't be found. > It is good to come to understand what different schools of thought > propose, but reality is what it is, despite the theories. So, do you contend that 'citta' as used in Abhidhamma is along the lines of "the ether" and cannot be found, i.e., all this citta talk is mere speculation? Dan 36351 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 6:35am Subject: "conceptual right view" QUIZ "Right view" as a Dhamma term can refer to are: a. A correct idea of what's wholesome vs. unwholesome and so on (i.e., "conceptual right view"); b. The mundane right view that occurs with a moment of mundane satipatthaana; or c. Right View of the Noble Eightfold Path, something that only occurs with the attainment of magga and phala. d. All of the above e. (b) and (c) only f. Other (explain) I chose e, but it is interesting to note that Bhikkhu Bodhi apparently would choose c: "We may understand that the conceptual comprehension of the four truths falls under mundane right view, while the direct penetration of the truths by realising Nibbana with the path constitutes supramundane right view." [MLDB, n. 1103] However, elsewhere he acknowledges a place for the right view of mundane satipatthana as included with mundane right view [MLDB, n. 1100 and 1101]. Dan 36352 From: jwromeijn Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 6:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: flippin off the moon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hello, Joop > I have nothing against anyone reading other texts if they feel so > inclined, but the question I think needs to be asked,and that I > asked Ben, is how one evaluates what one reads in the other texts. > There is no lack of writings by erudite scholars. But by what > standard do you measure the views expressed by these other > writers? Do you trust your own judgment in the matter? Joop: Yes, and sometime with the help of scolars I trust, for example David Kalupahana and Stephen Batchelor > > You better could have asked, and now I do, to Ben: > > What is the disadvantage of clinging to realities? > A question well worth considering and discussing. As Ben has not > responded, perhaps you would share with us your own thoughts on the > subject. Regards > Jon Joop: (1) To nothing clinging is good, also not to realities (2) The (paramattha) dhammas are realities, that is: they are not trancendental (perhaps 'Nibbana' is: we don't know) And because the dhammas are realities in the Abhidhamma we have to be critical on comments who make things sibtle and complex. Metta Joop 36353 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:25am Subject: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Dear Sarah and Htoo, My problem with this in the past has simply been the meaning of the word 'result'. Reading in English I haven't always taken it to mean 'vipaaka', so future natural decisive support condition could've been 'a result'. So my question is, when we read ""a wholesome or unwholesome kamma which,although unable to produce a result by itself,", was the original Paali here'vipaaka'? mike ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Mike, Vipaka dhamma are dhamma when they arise as vipaka. You did something in your past. At that time a series of cittas arise. They were not free of cetana. Among them cetana embedded in javana cittas do give rise to kamma. That kamma is potential. As long as no result, there is no vipaka. Every day, and at every time, there are many cittas happening. Among them some are vipaka cittas. But we cannot know what is the source for that vipaka cittas. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Before you disappeared you said you have to ask something. I do not think this is your question as yet. 36354 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Dear Howard, I think it is more my ignorance than your lack of clarity. I do believe I don't rightly know what it's like to "experience darkness" as a reality. Dan > > > Dark is the absence of light. Silence is the absence of > > sound. We can > > >experience darkness, can we not? We also can experience silence. > > And they are > > >distinguishable!! So absences are realities. The question is: Where > > are they > > >experienced? I think the correct answer may be "via the mind door". > > (And yet, > > >doesn't it seem that one actually SEES darkness? I think so. So the > > matter is > > >unclear.) > > > > > >With metta, > > >Howard > ============================== > I'm sorry that I'm being obscure. I'm afraid I don't know how to > clarify the matter. so, I guess we'll just let it go. :-) 36355 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:48am Subject: Jhana Journey ( 17 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Now the jhana practitioner is in his third jhana. He must exercise this jhana as described in the previous posts. He must contemplate on the third jhana. Through contamplation he will know that his third jhana composes of piti, sukha and ekaggata. After contemplation, he has to try to access to his third jhana whenever he wants. After some practice, he will be able to do so as he wishes. He also have to practise that his third jhana has to stay for an hour or any period as he determines. When this works, then he will be able to stay in third jhana as long as he predetermines. He should also practise his third jhana in the way that he is able to emerge from third jhana as he wishes. If this happens there will not be any delay when he tries to emerge from third jhana. He also should scrutinise the jhana factors in his third jhana. He should check one after another whether they worked well or not. At a time, he will notice that one of the jhana factors in his third jhana is the weakest link in 3rd jhana. The weakest link is piti ( delightedness ) and it is a bit wavering and it is quite close to vitakka and vicara. So his third jhana will possibly be destroyed by vitakka and vicara. In contemplating so, he sees piti as enemy and he will continue to practice jhana and try to eliminate piti that is he will continue to practise jhana without piti. After an indefinite time, he manages to overcome practising jhana without piti. If other parts of jhana are working evidently then he is said to be in the fourth jhana. The fourth Jhana hold the object patibhaga ( counter image ) of WHITE. The practitioner must contemplate on his new catuttha or the fourth jhana. He must exercise this fourth jhana like other lower jhanas. In this 4th jhana, there are sukha and ekaggata as jhana factors. There is no more piti as it does not arise. As initial jhana citta, this 4th jhana citta arises only once. After that bhavanga cittas follow. Then the practitioner does the contemplation on jhana and he realises that he has attained the 4th jhana. This again has to be practised as usual so that he becomes proficient in his 4th jhana. May you all achieve fourth jhana to be more calm. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36356 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:55am Subject: Patthana Dhamma Page 41 on Dhammarammana Cittas Dear Dhamma Friends, Patthana Dhamma is ongoing and currently there can be viewed the page 41 which describes dhammarammana about citta. This can be seen at www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana41.html and this page will be followed by explanation on more about other cittas. Patthana dhamma as an introduction can be viewed at www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html Like mahasatipatthana dhamma, patthana dhamma can be applied in our daily life. This is true that our lives as we would think is actually made up of many dhamma. But we see them with illusion. Illusion is false interpretation of real image. There is a long rope. This is a rope. But weaken eyes, or normal eyes in a dim light or people intoxicated may falsely interprete this rope as a snake. This is illusion. Nama dhamma and rupa dhamma are working on their own accord and there is no one dictating this dhamma arise here and that dhamma arise there and this dhamma disappear now and that dhamma disappear there and so on. Unlike suttanta teachings, patthana dhamma do not involve any personal things or beings or sattas. But just dhamma arising in their own accord and interact and interconnected each other and one another. May you all feel confident on Dhamma learning. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... 36357 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] conceit Hello Phil, op 12-09-2004 16:26 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Ph: I can see conceit arising as a result of an associated citta > experiencing an object, but I can't yet > understand conceit experiencing the object on its own. "On account of the > object" doesn't really fill in that blank in my mind. N: There are actually many cittas with conceit in processes following closely upon each other. That makes it difficult to understand: why does conceit experience also visible object. When we explain it in conventional terms we could say: the appearance of my body is more beautiful then the body of the other person, the colour of my dress is nicer than the dress of that women, etc. Those are long sentences of thinking, but there was also a moment of experiencing colour by seeing, and then after that the determining consciousness to be followed by akusala javana cittas rooted in lobha with conceit, and then again javanacittas with conceit in a mind-door process, and after that javana-cittas in other mind-door processes which think about the whole event, about she and me. When there is direct awareness and understanding the characteristic of conceit can be known. Nina. 36358 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner9-Introduction(f) Hello Phil, I think Rob K answered before. I always carefully put . Once I said: bound to arise and Ven. Bodhi said to me not to say so. It would seem like a fate, he thinks. As if we are hopeless victims to a fate. but he approved of likely. Nina. op 13-09-2004 02:13 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: >> Shortly after it (the moment of seeing) has fallen away, cittas rooted in > attachment, >> aversion or ignorance may arise and these are of a different jati: the >> jati which is akusala. > > > I've asked Nina about a similar sentence to this before but I'm sorry > to say I can't remember her response. My apologies. > Is it a bit misleading to say that such cittas "may" arise? Isn't it all > but a certainty, > except for Arahants, when we consider the rarity of wholesome cittas? > Would it be more accurate to say "will probably" or "will almost surely" > arise? 36359 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:31pm Subject: Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" <. > > > ++++++++++++ > > Dear Andrew , > > I quote a sutta about the advantages of hearing/considering (and > > insighting) Dhamma: > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/anguttara_nikaya.%20(2)%2020htm.htm > > Anguttara Nikaya >> Robert, this looks somewhat dogmatic to me, to assume that one can be > reborn in the devas going on the mere recitation of the texts. > Careful consideration is again something not possible for me at this > point, I'm not well enough to read through and develop an > understanding, as I've said previously, and even pondering over would > be difficult for me at this stage. >++++++++ Dear Andrew, as I said before it takes time for understanding to accumulate. It is not only reciting of texts but it depends on the study conditioning kusala. Sukin wrote about pariyatti (the theory, the study):"Because of this lack of pariyatti, here referring to the panna of this level, there is misunderstanding of what practice involves. Pariyatti is not the `verbal knowledge' but indeed the level of understanding which *knows* at least the value of developing satipatthana and that this very moment is conditioned and anatta. And though it may only be `thinking' in the beginning about just fallen away dhammas, it knows that what ever level of panna arises is just what is meant to be, and with this is already some detachment. And in this case, more understanding about conditionality and anatta is accumulating as sankhara. Which is why, without correct pariyatti and knowing conditioned realities in daily life, one will be deluded into thinking that *more* can be achieved through some deliberate effort on one's part via some formal practice or `deliberate looking'. And this is to go against the principal of anatta and conditionality."" When we think it is 'me" who is trying to understand it may seem easy or hard, helpful or unhelpul. But when we know it is only conditioned phenomena arising (no me anywhere) the study is purely a reminder of what is real now. RobertK 36360 From: plnao Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner9-Introduction(f) Hello Nina > Hello Phil, > I think Rob K answered before. I always carefully put . Once I said: > bound to arise and Ven. Bodhi said to me not to say so. It would seem like a > fate, he thinks. As if we are hopeless victims to a fate. but he approved of > likely. > Nina. Very interesting. I can see "bound to" being too discouraging, but "may" seems a bit too lenient and inconsistent with much of your other writing. There are times for example that we read "there can not be many moments of sati", and since we also are taught that sati must accompany all kusala cittas, we are left to conclude that there can not be many moments of kusala cittas. And therefore we conclude that there will be almost entirely akusala cittas rising. Again, I don't find this discouraging. It keeps us on our toes- it brings about samvega, a sense of urgency which, if tempered by patience, leads to progress on the path. After all, we are worldlings. We are awash in akusala cittas, but the Buddha shows the way to stand on dry ground in kusala, so to speak. But it will take many lifetimes to clamber out of the flood of akusala and stand on dry ground. In my opinion, most Westerners are too optimistic about enlightenment in this lifetime. They forget that it took the Buddha aeons and that there is no express lane. This gives rise to practicng in wrong view - for example seeking jhanas when the conditions are clearly not there for such a practice, trying to force jhanas into one's life. As you often write, people don't have enough appreciation for the value of a moment of mindfulness. They want big results. The idea of akusala being very likely to rise tempers these unwise, self-driven expectations, in my opinion. Not a cause for hopelessness. Rather a cause for gratefulness to the Buddha who taught us the subtle (yes, it must be subtle, Joop) way out. I know that there are different levels of sati, and if I recall correctly the sati of satipatthana is the one you are say is very rare? So perhaps when we read that all kusala cittas must be accompanied by sati, it is a more mundane and commonly available degree of sati. I know we've talked about this before. It seems I need to hear things 3 or 4 times until I retain them. Sorry about that. But it is an important point, that's for sure, and worth repeating in case others haven't considered it. Metta, Phil p.s Hi to Sarah and Azita and thank you for your long, encouraging posts. No time to respond this morning, and I will be away for a couple of days as of tonight. I'll be back to you in a few days. 36361 From: plnao Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:28pm Subject: Deeds of Merit - paying respect depends on citta Hello all More from "Deeds of Merit" by By Sujin Boriharnwanaket available at http://www.zolag.co.uk/meri2.html Yesterday we learned about paying respect through speech. Today we consider the mental aspect of paying respect. K. S. : Kusala or akusala depends on the nature of the citta. There can be kusala citta with respect for a person or a place, even if one does not show respect by body or speech. This may happen when the person to whom we want to pay respect is too far away for us to approach him to pay respect. Or when we are in a temple in the midst of a crowd we cannot show respect by touching the floor with our head, hands and knees. But at such moments the citta can still be respectful when respect is due to a person or to a place; the citta can be respectful by abstaining from hurting or harming others through body, speech or mind. If someone pays respect occasionally through body or speech, just because it is his habit to do so, but he hurts or harms other people or causes damage to a place which should be respected by body, speech or mind, then he is not showing true respect. He folds his hands together and raises them towards his face [24 out of fear, or in order to gain something, to acquire things for himself, or he does so because the people he salutes are his relatives, or just because he conforms himself to the custom of society. K. S. : At the moment the citta is coarse it means that there is no happiness. Even though a person does not yet give expression to rudeness through body or speech, he is not able to make someone else whom he meets or who is close happy. This shows us that a person whose citta is coarse has no mettaa, loving kindness, for someone else. Because when the citta is coarse, a person cannot be intent on making someone else happy, or on giving assistance or helping him so that he is free from distress. If the citta has a high degree of coarseness there will be behaviour and speech which is not polite, not gentle, without thoughtfulness and kindness. He will cause unhappiness and distress to someone else who has to face such behaviour and speech. Ph: There are times I sign off with "metta" when there are cittas accompanied by hostility, irritation. I've seen the same thing in others' posts. A courteous sign-off when the tone has been harsh. Not a big deal, really. The coarse tone of the body of the letter is more important to consider than the incompatible use of "metta" etc. Metta, Phil 36362 From: m. nease Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Hi Htoo, All understood, thanks--not sure what my question was--I'll try to remember. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "htootintnaing" To: Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 7:25 AM Subject: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) > Dear Mike, > > Vipaka dhamma are dhamma when they arise as vipaka. You did something > in your past. At that time a series of cittas arise. They were not > free of cetana. Among them cetana embedded in javana cittas do give > rise to kamma. > > That kamma is potential. As long as no result, there is no vipaka. > Every day, and at every time, there are many cittas happening. Among > them some are vipaka cittas. > > But we cannot know what is the source for that vipaka cittas. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > PS: Before you disappeared you said you have to ask something. I do > not think this is your question as yet. 36363 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:43pm Subject: RE: [dsg] CSC4-Introduction(a) [Herman: "rules of language"] Hi Dan, May we all have a great morning/day/evening/night :-) ============= Good morning, Herman. You write: "Citta in early Buddhism is the heart, or the intentional / feeling aspect of being....I agree with you, citta must have an object, but only in the Abhidhamma and beyond." Huh? Not sure what you mean by "intentional/feeling aspect of being" or "early Buddhism". Don't you see much of the second volume of SN writing about objects of citta? ============= The Internet is my vademecum. If you do any number of searches on Pali canon chronology or the like you will find plenty of material that discusses the development and chronology of Buddhist thought. The PTS Pali - English dictionary as found at http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ (thanks, Christine :-)) sheds light on the etymology of just about any word in the canon. Thanks for your comments re SN. Looks like more entries in the list for possible reading :-). ================= > Nobody doubted the substantiality of "the ether" when it was introduced to prop up other beliefs, until it was looked for and couldn't be found. It is good to come to understand what different schools of thought propose, but reality is what it is, despite the theories. So, do you contend that 'citta' as used in Abhidhamma is along the lines of "the ether" and cannot be found, i.e., all this citta talk is mere speculation? ================ The Buddha was not foretelling the future when he taught that *ALL* dhammas fall under the anicca, anatta and dukkha umbrella. He knew that every dhamma that ever arose, and that every dhamma that will ever arise has these characteristics. He was not just extrapolating from some observations he made to all other possible future instances. He discovered the *STRUCTURE* of dhammas, and that is what he shared with us. When you know the structure of a process, then you can go beyond the sampling and evaluating of individual events. The structure is the key, and it does away with the need to compile an inventory. You see one, you've seen them all!! What is the structure of dhammas? Simply that only what changes is known. So every phenomenon is simply the reporting of difference. Now difference is not in time or in space, it is not here, it is not there. Difference has no substance. So what core essences and characteristics are we to ascribe to what has neither form nor content? The goal of the Buddha is Nibbana. This is what the PTS Pali-English dictionary has to say about what has happened to Nibbana over time. "It is the speculative, scholastic view and the dogmatising trend of later times, beginning with the Abhidhamma period, which has more and more developed the simple, spontaneous idea (of Nibbana) into an exaggerated form either to the positive (i. e. seeing in N. a definite state or sphere of existence) or the negative side (i. e. seeing in it a condition of utter annihilation). Yet its sentimental value to the (exuberant optimism of the) early Buddhists (Rh. Davids, Early Buddhism, p. 73) is one of peace and rest, perfect passionlessness, and thus supreme happiness. Writing a bookshelf-full on the theory of citta is like going out catching insects and pinning their lifeless forms into a lovely taxonomy marked "a study of life". There is absolutely no need to conceive of existence. Let alone speak with authority of cuti citta, patisandhi vinnana and paramattha dhammas. To conceive of existence is, in fact, to miss the Nibbana boat. My experience only, of course :-) Kind Regards Herman PS A quote from early Buddhism One who isn't inclined toward either side -- becoming or not-, here or beyond -- who has no entrenchment when considering what's grasped among doctrines, hasn't the least preconceived perception with regard to what's seen, heard, or sensed. By whom, with what, should he be pigeonholed here in the world? -- this brahman who hasn't adopted views. They don't conjure, don't yearn, don't adhere even to doctrines. A brahman not led by precepts or practices, gone to the beyond -- Such -- doesn't fall back. From http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4-05. html 36364 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:58pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi Howard and Dan, Just my three cents worth to a very interesting discussion: =================== D > I think it is more my ignorance than your lack of clarity. I do believe I don't rightly know what it's like to "experience darkness" as a reality. =================== I think darkness is experienced in terms of light, and light is experienced in terms of darkness. All in an analog fashion, with many grades of distinction possible. There is no contextless experience ie absolute experience. Kind Regards Herman 36365 From: Andrew Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:09pm Subject: On Facts and Absolutisms Dear Joop & Herman Thanks for your responses which I have just read. Have been away and now a bit ill, so will be out of things for a while. Take care Andrew T 36366 From: Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi, Herman (and Dan) - In a message dated 9/13/04 7:58:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > I think darkness is experienced in terms of light, and light is > experienced in terms of darkness. All in an analog fashion, with many > grades of distinction possible. There is no contextless experience ie > absolute experience. > > ========================= Hmm, maybe. But do you really think they are on the same footing? Do you really think that light is the (relative) absence of darkness? Isn't light the positive, and darkness just the absence of it. (But may not. I'm really not sure. My mind seems to flip-flop on this one. ;-) A possibility, and this is what you may have in mind, is that light and darkness are not simple negations or absences of the other, but, instead, phenomenologically, light is an experience (or range of experiences), darkness is another (range of) experience(s), and they are experiences that are complementary in occurrence, with each dispelling the other to some extent. (One doesn't usually speak of darkness dispelling light, but there is no reason why one could not.) However, my inclination is to view (a degree of ) darkness as the mere (relative) absence of light, and ignorance as the mere (total or partial) absence of wisdom, where, by 'wisdom' I understand "clear, bright understanding". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36367 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 6:16pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Cooran 13-15 August, 2004 Thanks Ken, It is much clearer now. Thanks and regards Herman ============== I won't post the reply I have prepared: it gives the same definitions of satipatthana you must have seen here a hundred times before. I should try instead to understand what you are asking me to explain - what part of my message seemed so surprising to you? If I remember correctly, you said `thinking is intention,' and I replied: ============ KH: >> That sounds right to me: whenever there is a concept (e.g., "a tree") then there is intention (cetana) and its associated sankharas. But they are not known at that precise moment. At the moment of "tree awareness" there is no awareness of cetana. So the paramattha dhammas known as `thinking' (cetana, vicara, vitakka, etc.) can be known with satipatthana but not so, "tree." > > ============= H: > Am I reading you correctly, are you sure you mean satipatthana? If so, can you explain that a bit? > ------------- KH: I'll reword it a bit. Whenever there is a concept, there is consciousness (citta) with its cetasikas (including cetana, intention). At that time, the object being experienced is the concept, not the citta nor any of its cetasikas. So there is no possibility of satipatthana at that precise moment. (Satipatthana has a dhamma, not a concept, as its object.) However, any of those dhammas that are present (experiencing the concept) can become the object of satipatthana in the next [mind-door] process of cittas. Is that any more intelligible? (I can see now that the original was not well worded.) Kind regards, Ken H 36368 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 6:38pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi Howard, Thanks for your comments. =============== > > I think darkness is experienced in terms of light, and light is > experienced in terms of darkness. All in an analog fashion, with many > grades of distinction possible. There is no contextless experience ie > absolute experience. > > ========================= Hmm, maybe. But do you really think they are on the same footing? Do you really think that light is the (relative) absence of darkness? Isn't light the positive, and darkness just the absence of it. (But may not. I'm really not sure. My mind seems to flip-flop on this one. ;-) ========== HH > I have that too :-) I'm hoping it's a good sign when thinking is not set in concrete :-) Kind Regards Herman 36369 From: Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi, Herman - In a message dated 9/13/04 10:20:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > (But may not. > I'm really not sure. My mind seems to flip-flop on this one. ;-) > > ========== > > HH >I have that too :-) I'm hoping it's a good sign when thinking is > not set in concrete :-) > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Mmm, yeah. That's good. I'll buy that! (Or maybe the flip-flopping is just a sign of aging! ;-)) ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36370 From: Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:21pm Subject: Flip-flopping Hi Howard and Herman, In regard to whether light dispells dark or dark dispells light, the flip-flopping from one position to another is actually delusion (aka ignorance, bewilderment, doubt, moha). See below. The antidote is to look at sabhava, the actuality of what happens. Over a period of time various colors arise and cease. Dark is actually black, not to be confused with "no eye consciousness". Black also arises and ceases. Black neither dispells white nor white black. Furthermore eye-consciousness doesn't dispell no-eye-consciousness, or vice-versa. However, the end of kamma does dispell kamma result, one manifestation of which is eye-consciousness. Larry ----------------------------------- Vis. XIV, 93. That 'rooted in delusion' is of two kinds: (32)-(33) being 'accompanied-by-equanimity', it is either 'associated-with-uncertainty' or 'associated-with-agitation'. It should be understood to occur at the time of indecision or of distraction. So unprofitable consciousness is of twelve kinds. Intro to Vis. 93 and Tiika. There are two types of cittas rooted in ignorance, moha-muula-cittas. They have moha as their only root. They are: 1) accompanied by indifferent feeling, associated with doubt upekkhaasahagata.m vicikicchaasampayutta.m 2) accompanied by indifferent feeling, associated with restlessness upekkhaasahagata.m uddhaccasampayutta.m Vicikicchaa is doubt about ultimate realities, about naama and ruupa, about cause and result, the four noble Truths, the Dependent origination. It is doubt about the Triple Gem, doubt about it whether enlightenment can be attained. The Expositor (II, p. 344) states: There is a word association between vicikiccha, doubt, and kicchati, to be wearied. It is tiring to wonder: is it this, or is it that? Is this true or not? It arises only with citta rooted in moha; ignorance conditions doubt. It may seem that doubt arises with unpleasant feeling, but it can condition dosa with unpleasant feeling, and this arises later on. It merely seems that doubt and dosa arise at the same time because cittas succeed one another so fast. Doubt is exclusion from the cure of knowledge, but understanding can cure it. So long as we have not reached the first stage of insight which clearly discerns the difference between nama and rupa, we have doubt about their characteristics. Hearing, which is nama, and sound, which is rupa, are different dhammas and sati can be aware of only one dhamma at a time. When sati does not arise we are confused about nama and rupa and we have doubts. When there is direct understanding of realities there is no doubt, one can directly prove the truth. By insight doubt will wear out and the sotapanna has eradicated it completely. As to restlessness or agitation, this is a translation of uddhacca. Uddhacca is not what we mean by the conventional term agitation, or excitement. Restlessness arises with each akusala citta and at that moment there is forgetfulness of kusala, there is not the steadiness and calm of kusala. Unwise attention is its proximate cause. The Tiika explains that when uddhacca arises with the citta rooted in moha it is predominant among the associated dhammas. Therefore, the second type of citta rooted in ignorance is classified as associated with restlessness, and here restlessness is mentioned expressively. We read in the Expositor (II, p. 346) about restlessness that is translated here as distraction: <ŒDistraction¹ is the mode of mind when excited, flurried. ŒDisquietude¹ is unquiet. ŒAgitation¹ is a throwing about of mind...> When we read the conventional terms excitement or agitation that describe uddhacca, we should remember that when it arises with the second type of citta rooted in ignorance there is only indifferent feeling that accompanies it. It is said in the Tiika that both types of citta are extremely deluded. We read in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 18): They are always accompanied by indifferent feeling, there is no like and dislike with the two types of citta rooted in ignorance. It is difficult to know when there is the second type of citta rooted in ignorance, associated with restlessness and accompanied by indifferent feeling. However, it arises very often in between the cittas rooted in attachment and those rooted in aversion. When akusala kamma is committed motivated by attachment and aversion, there are also many moments of the second type of citta rooted in ignorance in between. The Tiika explains that this type of citta, although it cannot produce vipaaka in the form of an unhapppy rebirth, it does produce vipaaka in the course of life by way of unpleasant experiences through the senses. There are twelve types of akusala cittas in all: eight types of akusala cittas rooted in attachment, two types of akusala cittas rooted in aversion and two types of akusala cittas rooted in ignorance. The akusala cittas rooted in attachment have two roots: ignorance and attachment; those rooted in aversion also have two roots: ignorance and aversion; those rooted in ignorance have ignorance as their only root. ***** Nina. 36371 From: Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/13/04 11:23:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard and Herman, > > In regard to whether light dispells dark or dark dispells light, the > flip-flopping from one position to another is actually delusion (aka > ignorance, bewilderment, doubt, moha). See below. > > The antidote is to look at sabhava, the actuality of what happens. Over > a period of time various colors arise and cease. Dark is actually black, > not to be confused with "no eye consciousness". Black also arises and > ceases. Black neither dispells white nor white black. Furthermore > eye-consciousness doesn't dispell no-eye-consciousness, or vice-versa. > However, the end of kamma does dispell kamma result, one manifestation > of which is eye-consciousness. > > Larry ========================== Indeed one sense of 'dark' is "black", and black is a color. But another sense is of dimming - from slight to complete. Darkness in that sense is absence of light. Certainly ignorance is absence or obscuration of wisdom. I don't think the matter is as simple as you present it. When a sighted person gets an eye illness or trauma to the eyes and s/he "descends into darkness," as it is said, does s/he end up seeing the color black? Perhaps. I don't know. Do you know? It would be interesting to hear the facts. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36372 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:41pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Larry, Thanks for your comments. =========== L > In regard to whether light dispells dark or dark dispells light, the flip-flopping from one position to another is actually delusion (aka ignorance, bewilderment, doubt, moha). See below. The antidote is to look at sabhava, the actuality of what happens. Over a period of time various colors arise and cease. Dark is actually black, not to be confused with "no eye consciousness". Black also arises and ceases. Black neither dispells white nor white black. Furthermore eye-consciousness doesn't dispell no-eye-consciousness, or vice-versa. However, the end of kamma does dispell kamma result, one manifestation of which is eye-consciousness. ============ H > I'm sure you'll agree that modern science also looks at the actuality of what happens, perhaps with more precision than introspection alone is capable of. It is no longer sufficient to consider seeing in terms of colour only, and the concept of luminance is vital. So we have chrominance and luminance, colour and brightness. There are eye receptors known as cones (sense bases for colour) and eye receptors for luminance known as rods (sense base for brightness). Darkness and lightness are not about colour but about brightness, in my opinion. Kind Regards Herman 36373 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner7-Introduction(d) Dear Azita, I like your posts, good reminders. Continue like that in India! Just one thing occurred to me: so long as we do not know the difference between nama and rupa, the first stage of insight, we cannot clearly know the difference between vipaka, such as seeing, and attachment which is akusala. But it is something that has to be investigated. It is not only Buddha knowledge. A. Sujin would say: what was otherwise the purpose of his teaching? We have to develop understanding of what he taught. This reminds me of an MP3 I have: explaining the difference between moments of citta with just universals, and citta with more cetasikas, arising later on. Nina. op 13-09-2004 10:13 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > An object impinges on a sense door/base and vipaka citta > experiences it - not me, not you. It is happening now and javana > cittas are arising now, either kusala or akusala. But are you able to > tell the difference? Cittas arise and fall sooooooo incredibly fast, > you can't 'catch' them - only a highly developed degree of wisdom and > understanding will know, and I'm not too sure of this myself, but I > think the knowledge of knowing vipaka from javana might just be > Buddha-only knowledge. 36374 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:32pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi Jon, Thanks for the feedback. ================= J > As I see it, the person who develops insight renounces attachments and craving in the sense of *outgrowing* them, much like a child outgrows his or her toys. That is to say, it's not necessarily a case of a deliberate or conscious giving up. Furthermore, the sequence and timing will be different for each individual depending on a number of factors. To my understanding, it is not part of the teaching that a comfortable lay life is in any sense an obstacle to the development of insight, since it is the degree of attachment to one's surroundings that is the crucial factor. A general lessening attachment doesn't necessarily mean one will change one's lifestyle; and conversely a renunciate lifestyle is no proof of lack of clinging or wrong view. ================== I agree with you, with a few proviso's. Different people will have a different understanding of what is comfortable. And for some definitions of comfort, having a comfortable life entails a great deal of effort to maintain that. And effort expended in maintaining a comfortable lifestyle precludes the expending of more profitable effort. I refer to http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp1-12. html and especially It is not without reason that it is said that As the crested, blue-necked peacock, when flying, never matches the wild goose in speed: Even so the householder never keeps up with the monk, the sage secluded, doing jhana in the forest. ================= J > The homeless life is advantageous for those suited to (i.e., capable of) living it. It is not advantageous for everyone; in fact, it could well be disadvantageous for a person not suited to it (I think this is said in the suttas). ========== H > I don't disagree with you; but the following rephrasings could also apply. The homeless life is advantageous for those *ready* for living it. It could well be disadvantageous for a person not *ready* for it. I do not advocate a wholesale leaving of the householders life. But I am in no doubt as to which lifestyle was advocated by the Buddha for those truly aware of the nature of reality and truly seeking an end to dukkha. Kind Regards Herman 36375 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Dear Friend, --- dighanakha wrote: > What practical implications do passages like this have for those > committed to a > fundamentalist hermeneutic in which everything in the Commentaries is > treated as > infallible? .... S: To start with your last comment, let me set myself up here as the fall guy or rather fall bird for the ‘fundamentalist hermeneutics’ (whatever they are) and see if I can help at all in this regard;-) .... > In the Commentary to the Jataka Ananda the Vulture King says: <...> > "It's not a case of love or hate with womenfolk you see, > It is for gold they hug a man, as parasites a tree." > - from the Kunala Jataka > > Is this true? .... S: Certainly it says this (and the other quotes you gave). The Buddha understood human nature and the extent of the kilesa (defilements) far better than us. Even in the Kunala Jataka verses themselves we read some pretty strong language. For a start: [419] “.....the Master said, “Surely, Brethren, even when I was in an animal form, I knew well the ingratitude, the wiles, the wickedness and immorality of women-folk, and at that time so far from being in their power I kept them under my control,” and when by these words he had removed the spiritual discontent of these Brethren, the Master held his peace.” So is this true? We can find a summary of the full story at this link: http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/ku/kunaala_jat_536.htm Kunála Játaka (No.536) Here is part of it: >Kunála, king of the Citrakokilas, though well served by his hen birds, always despised them and found fault with them. The king of the Phussakokilas, Punnamukha, on the other hand, always sang the praises of his escort. One day the two kings met, and Punnamukha asked Kunála why he was not more gracious to his ladies. "Because I know too much about women," was the answer; but Punnamakha was not in a mood to discuss the matter any more. Later, Punnamukha fell ill, and his hen birds deserted him and came to Kunála. He drove them away, ministered to Punnamukha, and cheered him. Some time after, Kunála, seated on the Manosilátala in Himavá (according to Buddhaghosa, D.ii.675, this was on the banks of the Kunáladaha), started to tell his friend of the wickedness of women. Hearing of this, many inhabitants of numerous worlds came to listen to him, among them Ananda, king of the vultures, and the ascetic Nárada. Many were the instances given by Kunála to illustrate the deceitfulness, ingratitude and immorality of women < <...> >Kunála's diatribe was followed by Ananda's, and his by Nárada's, each claiming to speak from facts within their knowledge. < <....> >In the stories related by Kunála, the bird-king is identified with one of the characters concerned in each story, so that he was able to speak with authority. This Játaka was related in order to destroy the discontent that rose in the hearts of the Sákiyan youths, kinsmen of the Buddha, who, having entered the Order, were troubled by the thought of the wives they had left behind. The Buddha therefore took them to the Himalaya, showed them the magnificent beauty of the region, particularly the miraculous splendours of the Kunáladaha, and there preached to them. At the end of the Játaka they all became arahants. We are told that that very day they became arahants (J.v.412-56; also DA.ii.674ff; AA.i.173). < .... S: I think it’s important to note: 1) the Jataka verses and introductions carry little or no meaning without the Jataka commentary stories to which they refer. 2) We need to read the stories in context and understand the compassionate reasons for telling them. So as summarised above, ‘This Játaka was related in order to destroy the discontent that rose in the hearts of the Sákiyan youths’ and by the end, the same bhikkhus had become arahants. It reminds me of other accounts of young discontent bhikkhus, infatuated with women who needed to be taught some pretty tough lessons in order to remain as bhikkhus, such as Nanda and the celestial nymphs or the bhikkhu who had to see Sirima, the courtesan’s rotting corpse. There are many accounts in the Vinaya too where the stories behind the laying down of the rules with regard to women are told. 3) The same Jataka is therefore at the same time in effect telling about the foolishness of men, ensnared by lobha. Read Connie’s translation of the sutta http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35323 “Naaha.m, bhikkhave, a~n~na.m ekaruupampi samanupassaami ya.m eva.m purisassa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thati yathayida.m, bhikkhave, itthiruupa.m. Itthiruupa.m, bhikkhave, purisassa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thatii"ti. Pa.thama.m. "I do not say, bhikkhus, there is another single thing of form, the perception of which so persistently overwhelms and stays in a man's mind, bhikkhus, as the form of a woman. The form of a woman, bhikkhus, persistently overwhelms and stays in a man's mind." This is the first thing.” etc (Of course the same applies to women). 4) Indeed we don’t need to wait til Jataka 536 to read about the foolishness of men. We can just open the texts at the very first Jataka (no 1) to read about truly foolish men who were taken by Anathapindika to listen to the Buddha who in the ‘thunderous tones as of a young lion roaring......in a voice of eightfold perfection, the charm of which ravished the ear, he preached to them the Truth in a discourse full of sweetness and bright with varied beauty.” The men ‘rose up with hearts converted’, threw away their other doctrines, took refuge in the Buddha, kept sila and the precepts and so on. But as soon as the Buddha left Savatthi, they returned to their old ideas and teachers. There is little to match the foolishness of such acts in my view. In previous lives it was the same. Indeed the entire Tipitaka is full of tales about the foolishness and madness of wordlings -men and women. Nothing sexist about it, as Connie said. I got quite lost in all the details of the Kunala Jataka and commentaries (partly because I was watching the news while I looked at it;-), but I take these as good reminders of how dangerous and powerful anusaya (latent tendencies) are in both men and women and how precious is the opportunity to develop wisdom with detachment now. Otherwise we just continue endlessly in Samsara in our foolish ways, even if some of these tendencies are not so very obvious in this life. ***** > And was the cuckoo Kunala (the Bodhisatta) right in advising that we not > credit > anything a woman says? .... S: Certainly in this example;-): “Later, Punnamukha fell ill, and his hen birds deserted him and came to Kunála. He drove them away, ministered to Punnamukha, and cheered him.” I've found these reflections useful. Thank you. Metta, Sarah p.s Welcome to DSG too - I hope you find the posts useful. We ask all new members to read the Guidelines carefully;-) ============== 36376 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: CSC 4-[Sarah: "citta is..."] Hi Dan, Great to have all your contributions.....like Nina said, don’t over-tax yourself so you have to run away;-). --- "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Sarah (et al.), > Thanks for adding these excellent and pertinent elaborations. My > summary: Citta is citta, and three ways to talk about citta are as > agent, instrument, or activity. All involve object. ... S: Yes. In different contexts and with different people we use different language. If Jon and I are talking together, we don’t hesitate to say ‘I can see the moon’, because there’s no chance of misunderstanding. On DSG, I might well say and do say ‘Seeing consciousness sees visible object’, but it can still be misunderstood as you used to mention before, so then we stress there is ‘seeing, the experiencing of visible object’ and still it will be misunderstood. The problem is not the language, but the long accumulated wrong views with which we can read or hear or say anything. ... D: > Is there a way to read it as saying that the > agent/instrument/activity are really three ways > to "experience 'citta'" rather than describe it? ... S: No. When there is an understanding of the characteristic of citta, there isn’t any question or issue of different ways as I see it. Metta, Sarah p.s many kinds of right view/right understanding (see Vism,beg ch X1V), not just satipatthana, but you’re right about mundane and supramundane rt und. in MN117. Good comment of yours, whilst we remember the goal: D: “Clearly, direct insight has nothing to do with words or putting together any particular formulation of words or weaving together this theory or that theory. Discussion of insight or dhammas does require words, though, and it is good to try to find words that are helpful rather than words that are not helpful.” ====================== 36377 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Hi Mike (& Htoo), Great to see the old gang around;-) I always appreciate your well-considered reflections. --- "m. nease" wrote: > Dear Sarah and Htoo, > > My problem with this in the past has simply been the meaning of the word > 'result'. Reading in English I haven't always taken it to mean > 'vipaaka', > so future natural decisive support condition could've been 'a result'. > So > my question is, when we read ""a wholesome or unwholesome kamma which, > although unable to produce a result by itself,", was the original Paali > here > 'vipaaka'? ..... S: I don’t have the Pali, but from the context of the previous paragraph, I think ‘result’ clearly refers to vipaka and kamma produced rupas. The previous para reads: “Therein, a wholesome or unwholesome volition that produces resultant [consciousness] (vipaka) and kamma-born materiality both at relinking and during activity is called a ‘generating’ kamma.” Then it continues with the para about ‘supporing’ kamma which I gave. (See also BB’s notes on p200 f in CMA, though of course the commentary itself is always the most precise as in the comments Dan and KenH were discussing). I’m pretty sure from the text that ‘future natural decisive support condition’ is not included in ‘result’ here. .... I liked your comment back to Phil about ‘one of the great values of abhidhamma’, ‘learning to tell kusala from akusala in a very, clear, specific way’. This is what I was trying to stress in part of my message to Htoo with regard to the development of any kind of bhavana - samatha as well as vipassana. While we continue to be fooled all the time by moha and lobha in particular, there will always be the taking for calm, what is really lobha most the time, I think. Metta, Sarah ======= 36378 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:58am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner11-Introduction(h) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Introduction [contd] ***** Summarizing the cittas which perform their function in a sense door process and then in a the mind-door process when a rupa impinges on one of the sense-doors: -atita-bhavanga (past bhavanga) -bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga) -bhavangupaccheda (arrest bhavanga, the last bhavanga arising before the object is experienced through the sense door) -five-sense-door-adverting-consciousness (pancadvaravajjana citta) -sense-cognition (dvi-pancavinnana, seeing-consciousness, etc.) -receiving-consciousness (sampaticchana-citta) -investigating-consciousness (santirana-citta) -determining-consciousness (votthapana-citta) -7 javana-cittas (kusala cittas or akusala cittas in the case of non-arahats), -2 registering-consciousness (tadarammana-cittas which may or may not arise). Then there are bhavanga-cittas and the last two of these, arising before the object is experienced through the mind-door, are specifically designated by a name. The process runs as follows: -bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga) -bhavangupaccheda (which is in this case the mind-door through which the cittas of the mind-door process will experience the object) -mind-door-adverting-ccnsciousnes (mano-dvaravajjana-citta) -7 javanacitta -2 tadarammana-cittas (which may or may not arise) . After the mind-door process has been completed there are bhavanga-cittas again. ***** [Introduction to be continued] Metta, Sarah ====== 36379 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:52pm Subject: The Entrance... Friends: The Last Relinquishment: When ignorance of the 4 Noble Truths finally fully evaporates he no longer clings to sense pleasures, he no longer clings to views, he no longer clings to rules & rituals, he no longer clings to any identity... When he does not cling, he is not agitated !!! When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. He understands: Birth is ended, the Noble life has been lived, what had to be done is done, there is no more relapsing into any state of being... Majjhima Nikaya I 68: The shorter speech on the Lion's Roar. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X PS: Today is the Buddhist Observance day (Uposatha): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html May many beings benefit from it's inherent advantage... All yours in the True Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://uk.geocities.com/bhikkhu_samahita/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 36380 From: dighanakha Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:04am Subject: Re: flippin off the moon Jonothan Abbott wrote: Joop>> I for example like to study Nagarjuna and read in the book Joop>> of the (Sri Lankan born) Kalupahana that Nagarjuna is not a Joop>> Mahayanist. And Nagarjuna talks too about "two truths". Jon> There is no lack of writings by erudite scholars. But by Jon> what standard do you measure the views expressed by these Jon> other writers? Do you trust your own judgment in the matter? Hello Jon. If someone thinks "My own judgment is poor, so I'll trust the judgment of the ancient arahant theras as reported by Buddhaghosa" then it is by her own judgment that she has judged Buddhaghosa's judgment to be better than her own. And it is by her own judgment that she has judged the reportage of Buddhaghosa to be a faithful account of the understanding of the Buddha's arahant disciples (as the Theravada tradition claims) and not merely one competing sectarian interpretation among others (as modern scholars claim). So in a sense she is trusting her own judgment no less than a person who tries to read and understand the Tipitaka unaided by Buddhaghosa's exegesis, or aided by Buddhaghosa's exegesis but not treating it as absolutely authoritative. And when she reads the Commentaries she will either assume that the understanding to which her reading gives rise is correct (in which case she is trusting her own judgment), or she will turn to some guide outside herself (in which case she is STILL trusting her own judgment -- for the available guides are not of one mind as to what the Commentaries mean. So she is trusting that she is competent to judge which of the competing interpreters is the most reliable). So in choosing, say, K Sujin as a guide, she is trusting that it is Sujin's take on the Comms that is correct, and not that of, say, Mogok or Mahasi or any of the other Abhidhammists who start from the same premises as K Sujin but arrive at very different conclusions. It is only through her trust in her own judgment that she can make such a decision. So it seems that in the final analysis one is always -- and ineluctably -- trusting one's own judgment. Sartre remarks in a similar connection: "Il n'y a pas de signe dans le monde. Les catholiques rŽpondront: 'mais il y a des signes!' Admettons-le; c'est moi-m?me en tout cas qui choisis le sens qu'ils ont." (There are no signs in the world [as to what is right]. The Catholics will reply: 'Oh but there are signs!'. Fine, suppose we agree that there are; even so it is I myself who, in every case, must choose what they mean.) Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me.' (Dighanakha Sutta) 36381 From: dighanakha Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:23am Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? C> Hello DN_N, all, Hello Christine, Thank you for responding. C> Gosh! Dighanaka Nutcracker (I got rhythm, I got music ...) C> you must have been typing away for hours and hours to bring C> us these obscure (though interestingly salacious and sexist) C> Jataka tales. No, I have Cowell's Jataka translation on a CD, so it only took a few keystrokes to copy and paste. I agree that they are interestingly salacious and sexist. But I don't think that they are obscure. At least they didn't used to be. If they seem so now it is probably because of the modern habit -- that Sarah recently referred to -- of people just picking the parts of the texts that confirm their prejudices. In fact there are several indications that "faults of women" texts like the Kunala Jataka once occupied a very prominent place in the Pali textual tradition. King Menandros was familiar with several of them and brought them up in his dialogues with Nagasena. In the case of the Kunala Jataka, its importance (in the eyes of the ancient commentators) can be seen from the elaborate Mahayana-style literary flourish with which it opens. These are normally only used to introduce very major texts like the Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta. "...the Great Being said, 'Well then, friend, I will tell you of the wickedness of womenfolk,' and he took Punnamukha and brought him to the Red Valley on a slope of the Himalayas and sat down on a rock of red arsenic at the foot of a sala tree, seven leagues in extent, while Punnamukha with his following sat on one side. Throughout all the Himalayas went a heavenly proclamation: 'Today Kunala, king of birds, seated on a rock of red arsenic in the Himalayas, with all the charm of a Buddha will preach the Dhamma: hearken to him.' By proclaiming it, one to another, the gods of the six Kamavacara worlds heard of it and for the most part assembled together: many deities too in the forest, nagas, garudas, and vultures proclaimed the fact. At that time Ananda, king of the vultures, with a following of ten thousand vultures dwelt upon Vulture Peak. And on hearing the commotion he thought, 'I will listen to the preaching of the Dhamma,' and came with his followers and sat apart. Narada too, the ascetic with the five Supernatural Faculties, dwelling in the Himalaya region, with his following of ten thousand ascetics, on hearing this heavenly proclamation, thought, 'My friend Kunala, they say, will speak of the faults of womenkind: I too must listen to this exposition,' and accompanied by a thousand ascetics he travelled thither by supernatural power and sat apart on one side. There was a great gathering like that which assembles to hear the teaching of Buddhas." That's some opening! We have 10,001 vultures, 11,002 ascetics, and an unspecified number of kamavacara devas, garudas and nagas, all gathered to listen to a cuckoo talk about how bad women are. Kunala then starts as he means to go on: "Verily, friend Punnamukha [another cuckoo], these creatures are not mere harlots, wenches or street-walkers, they are not so much strumpets as murderesses ... They are like unto robbers with braided locks, like a poisoned drink, like merchants that sing their own praises, crooked like a deer's horn, evil-tongued like snakes, like a pit that is covered over, insatiate as hell, as hard to satisfy as a she-ogre, like the all-rapacious Yama, all-devouring like a flame, sweeping all before it as a river, like the wind going where it lists, undiscriminating like Mount Neru, fruiting perenially like a poison tree." In the English translation the cuckoo twitters on in the same vein for another twenty pages. Then comes the closing flourish: "And the elves and the mighty nagas and the like in the Himalayas, and the devas standing in the air, all applauded, saying, 'Bravo! Spoken with all the charm of a Buddha!' " Besides the literary devices used to highlight the "faults of women" texts, it is also striking just how many of them there are. By my counting there are 17 Jatakas that are devoted exclusively to the subject of female depravity. Then there are an additional 126 in which the same subject forms either a minor theme in the main story, or the main theme in one of the sub-plots. Whichever of the ancient theras compiled this collection obviously thought that female depravity was something we need to be informed about. C> I'm still exhausted from the Vesantara Jataka controversy of C> last year (or was it the year before?). I have only been reading the dsg posts since July. I did look at some of the Vessantara posts in the files section, but I prefer Steve Collins' long discussion of it in his book Nirvana and other Buddhist Felicities. I think the Vessantara is much less problematic than the Kunala, provided one doesn't approach it literalistically. But I'll save further comments for another day. Dig >> "It's not a case of love or hate with womenfolk you see, Dig >> It is for gold they hug a man, as parasites a tree." Dig >> - from the Kunala Jataka Dig >> Is this true? C > It may be a case of trying to ask Ananda the Vulture King. C > Any Abhinnas - like knowledge of past lives? I was not asking if it's true that Ananda said it. I was asking if it's true. Do women hug a man for gold like parasites a tree? If it is true then of course we should be grateful to Ananda for warning us about it. If it isn't true, then why did the passage get passed by the ancient arahant elders? Is it possible that those who gave it the imprimatur weren't really arahant elders? Maybe they were just ordinary blokes who couldn't stand women and wrote some diatribes expressing their hate. And maybe the Mahavihara had to call them "arahant elders" in order to continue getting patronage from Sri Lankan kings. Who knows? Now it's common knowledge that *some* women (and some men too) are gold-diggers who just marry to get their hands on their partners' wealth. But the "faults of women" Jatakas are seldom talking about just some women. Their statements about women are given as universal propositions that apply to all of them. And I haven't found a single one where a man hugs a woman for her gold (which would actually be the likelier scenario, considering the Indian tradition of bride dowries). C > I'm just shattered - Ananda (i.e. The Buddha's Attendant Ananda) C > has always been my hero - just goes to show that one shouldn't C > cling to anyone. I prefer Ananda's antithesis Mahakassapa. And of course the perpetually displeased Dighanakha. Dig >> And was the cuckoo Kunala (the Bodhisatta) right in advising Dig >> that we not credit anything a woman says? C > Now this is trickier - I hesitate to practise Species-ism C > ... but, really, what would a cuckoo know? Can't even bring C > up their own children ... But the text presents the Buddha as quoting the cuckoo with approval! And the text has the approval of the ancient arahant elders and the imprimatur of its translator, the Great Commentator Buddhaghosa. ;-) So for dsg's hardcore members I would expect the cuckoo's words to be no less authoritative than the Abhidhammatthasangaha or the Dispeller of Delusion. We shouldn't be just picking and choosing the parts that support our previous views, as Sarah likes to remind us. And if this approach to the texts is going to be followed consistently, we should be seeing messages like this: "In the Kunala Jataka we learn that all women are actually different from how they conventionally appear to be. For deluded worldlings it is so hard to see clearly that women are a brood of evil vipers, but with suitable accumulations there will arise that aspect of panna called the wicked-female-detection cetasika. At that point we will know for ourselves that what is conventionally called a 'good wife' or a 'caring mother' is really nothing but a rapacious she-ogre bent on cutting her husband's throat and drinking his blood, or selling her children to a tribe of cannibals so that she can be left free to go and play the harlot with an elephant groom. It may be many lifetimes (and many cut throats) before we reach this point, but in the meantime our study of the Kunala Jataka and related texts will help us to investigate the women that we meet in our daily life. A theoretical understanding of women is a foundation for a direct understanding that will arise when the suitable causes and conditions are present." Dig >> What practical implications do passages like this have for Dig >> those committed to a fundamentalist hermeneutic in which Dig >> everything in the Commentaries is treated as infallible? C > I think it was established at that time of the Vesantara C > Controversy (at least, to MY satisfaction) that the Jataka C > verses, though a little incomprehensible at times, are part C > of the Tipitaka, but the Jataka tales aren't. Sure, the verses are considered to be in the Tipitaka and the stories are Commentary. I don't think there's any controversy about that. But as far as the sexist material goes this doesn't help us much because there is actually more misogyny in the verses than in the stories. In most Jatakas of this kind the stories just give examples of individual women behaving badly or showing flaws of one sort or another. But then come the verses informing us that we should expect this behaviour from ALL women, along with recommendations that ALL women should be despised, avoided, distrusted, and disbelieved. Worse still, they should be spoken to aggressively to keep them in their place. Or rather, the Bodhisatta's doing so is viewed as commendable. Kunala to his cuckoo hens (who are all graciously ministering to his every need): "Perish, ye vile creatures, yea, perish utterly, ye thievish, knavish creatures, heedless, flighty and ungrateful as ye are, like the wind going wheresoever ye list." "After these words the Master said, "Surely, Brethren, even when I was in an animal form, I knew well the ingratitude, the wiles, the wickedness and immorality of womenfolk, and at that time so far from being in their power I kept them under my control." The attitude displayed here is what I would expect to find in the uglier sort of rap song ("I live in da ghettoes an' I got so many hoes, an' I beat da bitches hard to keep'em on their toes, cause I'm da man that's in control..."). I doubt if even Steve Collins could salvage it. So the point of my question above is that this material, though supposedly approved by the ancient arahant theras and the Great Commentator Buddhaghosa, is seriously at odds with what is taught about women in the other Nikayas of the Sutta Pitaka, and seriously disconfirmed by reality (it only takes one exception to falsify a universal proposition, e.g. one woman who occasionally speaks the truth). How do those of you committed to the interpretive approach recommended by the hardcore dsg members deal with this problem? Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me.' (Dighanakha Sutta) 36382 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perversions Dear Nina, (Phil at the end), --- nina van gorkom wrote: S:> >> There may not be any wrong view or idea of self. For example, when > there > > is atta-sa~n~naa, there is not necessarily any wrong view of self. It > is a > > vipallasa (perversion) of sa~n~naa, but not necessaily ditthi > vipallasa > > (perversion of view).< > > ***** > > S: In other words, there may be a distortion of perception in some > regard > > as there is with every unwholesome citta arising, but not necessarily > > wrong view. > > N: I still find it difficult to understand what atta-sa~n~naa is. What > kind > of atta? Perhaps just with clinging, and not necessarily wrong view? .... S: Yes. For example now, we may look at our hands as we type or look at our face in the mirror when we wash. We recognise the face and there’s bound to be clinging and ignorance and therefore perversion of sanna, but usually no wrong view or idea of a self existing at these times, I think. Only panna can know when there’s awareness what kind of kilesa it is appearing. .... N: >It is opposed to anattaa-sañña, and when hearing these in one context I just > wonder. Good for India? > In B. Dict. it says: the sotapanna eradicates the perversion of sañña, > citta > and ditthi that the impersonal is a personality. What do you think? .... S: I’ll start jotting down points for India. Good idea. Yes, this kind of perversion of sanna and citta accompanying ditthi is eradicated by a sotapanna, but still perversion of sanna and citta accompanying ignorance, attachment (without wrong view) and aversion such as when looking in the mirror or at our hands or the computer when there’s no dana, sila or bhavana. Like when a child plays for hours with his or her toys --lots of lobha and perversion of sanna, but not necessarily any wrong view. For a start, there’s usually no thought about anything relating to Truths or practice or right view. ***** --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah and all, > I found more material, Patisambidhamagga, Ch VIII (p. 277). We also > talked > about it long ago. I have the Thai Co which I only partly understand. It > brings us back to the child, villager and money changer who see a coin, > as a > simile. But now it refers to the degree of ignorance. Sañña is the > weakest > perversion, citta is less weak and wrong view, ditthi is the strongest. .... S: Right. So back to the example of touching a table in ignorance of the hardness experienced, there isn’t necessarily any ditthi, the strongest perversion arising or appearing as object to be known. Now, if we try to touch it in a special way or try to experience hardness or think we should focus or label it, then maybe. Again, only sati can be aware of its characteristic when it appears as I see it. I hope I haven’t misunderstood any of your points. Btw, the letter you wrote on ‘space’ was very helpful. I may quote it back to Htoo and ask for any of his comments. Also your intro to Vis XIV.99 (36218) is excellent. I encourage everyone to print it out or read it carefully when they have time. So much good material elaborated on as this passage from the Vism: N: >The Vis. (XIV, 41) states about the bodysense: The great Elements are the support of the bodysense.< .... S: In appreciation and I encourage others to also jot down topics or questions for India too. (Phil, we will try to make recordings available - we’re working on this side of things as well as the searching of DSG archives. Hope to have something on both fronts before we go away at least). Metta, Sarah ======= 36383 From: matt roke Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:13am Subject: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi, Howard, Herman, Dan and Larry, Excuse me for butting in and giving my simplistic non-scientific view on this subject. ===================== Howard > Dark is the absence of light. Silence is the absence of sound. We can experience darkness, can we not? We also can experience silence. And they are distinguishable!! So absences are realities. The question is: Where are they experienced? I think the correct answer may be "via the mind door". (And yet, doesn't it seem that one actually SEES darkness? I think so. So the matter is unclear. Dan> I do believe I don't rightly know what it's like to "experience darkness" as a reality. Herman> I think darkness is experienced in terms of light, and light is experienced in terms of darkness. All in an analog fashion, with many grades of distinction possible. There is no contextless experience ie absolute experience. Howard> Hmm, maybe. But do you really think they are on the same footing? Do you really think that light is the (relative) absence of darkness? Isn't light the positive, and darkness just the absence of it. (But may not. I'm really not sure. My mind seems to flip-flop on this one. ;-) A possibility, and this is what you may have in mind, is that light and darkness are not simple negations or absences of the other, but, instead, phenomenologically, light is an experience (or range of experiences), darkness is another (range of) experience(s), and they are experiences that are complementary in occurrence, with each dispelling the other to some extent. (One doesn't usually speak of darkness dispelling light, but there is no reason why one could not.) However, my inclination is to view (a degree of ) darkness as the mere (relative) absence of light, and ignorance as the mere (total or partial) absence of wisdom, where, by 'wisdom' I understand "clear, bright understanding". Larry> In regard to whether light dispells dark or dark dispells light, the flip-flopping from one position to another is actually delusion (aka ignorance, bewilderment, doubt, moha). See below. The antidote is to look at sabhava, the actuality of what happens. Over a period of time various colors arise and cease. Dark is actually black, not to be confused with "no eye consciousness". Black also arises and ceases. Black neither dispells white nor white black. Furthermore eye-consciousness doesn't dispell no-eye-consciousness, or vice-versa. However, the end of kamma does dispell kamma result, one manifestation of which is eye-consciousness. Howard> Indeed one sense of 'dark' is "black", and black is a color. But another sense is of dimming -from slight to complete. Darkness in that sense is absence of light. Certainly ignorance is absence or obscuration of wisdom. I don't think the matter is as simple as you present it. When a sighted person gets an eye illness or trauma to the eyes and s/he "descends into darkness," as it is said, does s/he end up seeing the color black? Perhaps. I don't know. Do you know? It would be interesting to hear the facts. Herman> I'm sure you'll agree that modern science also looks at the actuality of what happens, perhaps with more precision than introspection alone is capable of. It is no longer sufficient to consider seeing in terms of colour only, and the concept of luminance is vital. So we have chrominance and luminance, colour and brightness. There are eye receptors known as cones (sense bases for colour) and eye receptors for luminance known as rods (sense base for brightness). Darkness and lightness are not about colour but about brightness, in my opinion. =========================== Whether we are in a place where things are clearly discernible, only slightly discernible or not discernible at all, the only realities are seeing and visible object. *Light*, *void of light* and *darkness*, along with black and colours, are concepts experienced in the mind door. If there is no seeing and visible object then there can’t be the concept that a place *void of light* is *dark*. MattR 36384 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:33am Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dighanakha" wrote: > > > Sure, the verses are considered to be in the Tipitaka and the > stories are Commentary. I don't think there's any controversy > about that. But as far as the sexist material goes this > doesn't help us much because there is actually more misogyny in > the verses than in the stories. then come the verses > informing us that we should expect this behaviour from ALL women, > along with recommendations that ALL women should be despised, > avoided, distrusted, and disbelieved. > So the point of my question above is that this material, though > supposedly approved by the ancient arahant theras and the Great > Commentator Buddhaghosa, is seriously at odds with what is taught > about women in the other Nikayas of the Sutta Pitaka, and > seriously disconfirmed by reality (it only takes one exception to > falsify a universal proposition, e.g. one woman who occasionally > speaks the truth). > ++++++ Dear Dighanaka, Does Buddhaghosa say absolutely that all women are to be thought of in this way? It seems strange that he would, because in several passages he praises arahant Bhikkhuni, or talks of the benefits of showing worship to ones mother. I think we occasionally see sentiments making observations about women in other nikayas that may seem harsh: From the Anguttara Nikaya (II Chapter VI) "What is the reason, Lord, what is the cause that womenfolk do not preside ina court of justice,' nor engage in an occupation, nor go to a foreign country ?" "Ananda, a woman is given to anger. Ananda, woman is envious. Ananda, a women is greedy. Ananda, woman is poor in wisdom. This is the reason, Ananda, this is the cause, why women- folk do not preside in a court of justice, nor engage in an occupation, nor go to a foreign country." RobertK 36385 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:15am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 061 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Akasanancayatana jhana is the 1st arupa jhana. In that jhana, there arise akasanancayatana arupavacara arupakusala cittas if non-arahats are developing these cittas and akasanancayatana arupavacara arupakiriya cittas if arahats are developing these cittas. The viewer is citta. The viewee here is panatta, boundless space. This space is not a real. This arises from after leaving lohita patibhaga nimitta which has been filled the whole universe endlessly. The 1st arupa jhana citta takes the object panatta as all other 15 rupavacara cittas take pannatta as their object. Now the arupa jhanalabhi has to practise his arupa jhana to become proficient. This again has to go through all five exercises. Avajjana vasi contemplates on jhana factors and the object. There are only ekaggata and upekkha vedana and the object is boundless space. Samapajjana vasi helps him to access to his arupa jhana whenever he wants to stay in arupa jhana. Adhitthana vasi helps him to prescribe a predetermined for staying in arupa jhana exactly. Vutthana vasi helps him to be able to emerge from his arupa jhana at his will. Paccavakkhana vasi helps him to scrutinise on his arupa jhana. Through these five exercises, he become to see the weakness in his 1st arupa jhana. That weakness is the object which is akasa, boundless space that arises from leaving of lohita patibhaga nimitta. At any time, if this lohita patibhaga nimitta arises, he will fall back to rupa jhanas and finally back to kama. Through repeated contemplation, he realises that he must leave boundless space in order to avoid falling back to rupa jhana. When he contemplates on this matter, he starts to notice that there is akasa or boundless space. That space is viewed by akasanancayatana arupa jhana arupakusala citta. Citta actually has 1 cittakkhana or 3 submoments called uppada, thi, and bhanga. After bhanga citta falls away. Even though citta is impermanent, they arise in succession and as the object is boundless, the citta which views that boundless space is also boundless. Now, the practitioner just see his 1st arupa jhana arupakusala cittas which is boundless and countless and endless and limitless. At a time, while ekaggata arise in succession and well calm and upekkha vedana continues to work well with ekaggata and as he is totally free of any hindrances, the 2nd arupa jhana arise. This citta 71st citta is called 'vinnanancayatana arupavacara arupakusala citta'. The citta is 2nd arupa jhana citta. The object is the 1st arupa jhana citta. This is paramattha dhamma as cittas are paramattha dhamma. When this kind of arupa jhana citta arises in arahats, they are called 'vinnanancayatana arupavacara arupakiriya citta, which is 79th citta of 89 cittas. If the practitioner is not an arahat and when he dies, he will be reborn in 2nd arupa brahma bhumi with patisandhi citta called 'vinnanancayatana arupavacara arupavipaka citta'. This is 75th citta of 89 cittas in total. This citta is also bhavanga cittas and cuti citta in that 2nd arupa brahma bhumi. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36386 From: Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi, Herman (and Larry) - In a message dated 9/14/04 12:41:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Darkness and lightness are not about colour but about brightness, in my > opinion. > ========================= Herman, that's the way I take it also, but there *is* an interesting relationship between (phenomenological) darkness and shades-of-black color that I don't properly understand. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36387 From: Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi, Sarah - I disagree with you on this matter, Sarah. I believe that the anti-feminism quoted in your post copied below (and that's what I read there) is good evidence for not considering the Jataka Tales, stories, and commentaries - or much of them, at least - to be Buddha word, but instead reworkings in the Buddhist context of traditional morality tales expressing prejudices existing in the extant culture of the time. I really don't think that anti-feminist speech should be accepted as skillful means of the Buddha and apologetics be offered up for it. What you quote from suttas in which the Buddha points out the preeminance of the attraction women hold for men is, as you point out, balanced by mention of the corresponding impact that men have on women. I suspect that the anti-feminism expressed in the Jataka quotes, were it really the perspective of the Buddha, would have been enough to preclude the Buddha's originating the sangha of nuns. With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/14/04 4:13:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Dear Friend, > > --- dighanakha wrote: > >What practical implications do passages like this have for those > >committed to a > >fundamentalist hermeneutic in which everything in the Commentaries is > >treated as > >infallible? > .... > S: To start with your last comment, let me set myself up here as the fall > guy or rather fall bird for the ‘fundamentalist hermeneutics’ (whatever > they are) and see if I can help at all in this regard;-) > .... > >In the Commentary to the Jataka Ananda the Vulture King says: > <...> > >"It's not a case of love or hate with womenfolk you see, > >It is for gold they hug a man, as parasites a tree." > >- from the Kunala Jataka > > > >Is this true? > .... > S: Certainly it says this (and the other quotes you gave). The Buddha > understood human nature and the extent of the kilesa (defilements) far > better than us. Even in the Kunala Jataka verses themselves we read some > pretty strong language. For a start: > > [419] “.....the Master said, “Surely, Brethren, even when I was in an > animal form, I knew well the ingratitude, the wiles, the wickedness and > immorality of women-folk, and at that time so far from being in their > power I kept them under my control,â€? and when by these words he had > removed the spiritual discontent of these Brethren, the Master held his > peace.â€? > > So is this true? > > We can find a summary of the full story at this link: > http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/ku/kunaala_jat_536.htm > Kunála Játaka (No.536) > > Here is part of it: > > >Kunála, king of the Citrakokilas, though well served by his hen birds, > always despised them and found fault with them. The king of the > Phussakokilas, Punnamukha, on the other hand, always sang the praises of > his escort. One day the two kings met, and Punnamukha asked Kunála why he > was not more gracious to his ladies. "Because I know too much about > women," was the answer; but Punnamakha was not in a mood to discuss the > matter any more. > > Later, Punnamukha fell ill, and his hen birds deserted him and came to > Kunála. He drove them away, ministered to Punnamukha, and cheered him. > Some time after, Kunála, seated on the Manosilátala in Himavá (according > to Buddhaghosa, D.ii.675, this was on the banks of the Kunáladaha), > started to tell his friend of the wickedness of women. Hearing of this, > many inhabitants of numerous worlds came to listen to him, among them > Ananda, king of the vultures, and the ascetic Nárada. Many were the > instances given by Kunála to illustrate the deceitfulness, ingratitude and > immorality of women < > <...> > >Kunála's diatribe was followed by Ananda's, and his by Nárada's, each > claiming to speak from facts within their knowledge. < > <....> > >In the stories related by Kunála, the bird-king is identified with one of > the characters concerned in each story, so that he was able to speak with > authority. This Játaka was related in order to destroy the discontent that > rose in the hearts of the Sákiyan youths, kinsmen of the Buddha, who, > having entered the Order, were troubled by the thought of the wives they > had left behind. The Buddha therefore took them to the Himalaya, showed > them the magnificent beauty of the region, particularly the miraculous > splendours of the Kunáladaha, and there preached to them. At the end of > the Játaka they all became arahants. We are told that that very day they > became arahants (J.v.412-56; also DA.ii.674ff; AA.i.173). < > .... > S: I think it’s important to note: > > 1) the Jataka verses and introductions carry little or no meaning without > the Jataka commentary stories to which they refer. > > 2) We need to read the stories in context and understand the compassionate > reasons for telling them. So as summarised above, ‘This Játaka was related > in order to destroy the discontent that rose in the hearts of the Sákiyan > youths’ and by the end, the same bhikkhus had become arahants. It reminds > me of other accounts of young discontent bhikkhus, infatuated with women > who needed to be taught some pretty tough lessons in order to remain as > bhikkhus, such as Nanda and the celestial nymphs or the bhikkhu who had to > see Sirima, the courtesan’s rotting corpse. There are many accounts in the > Vinaya too where the stories behind the laying down of the rules with > regard to women are told. > > 3) The same Jataka is therefore at the same time in effect telling about > the foolishness of men, ensnared by lobha. Read Connie’s translation of > the sutta > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35323 > > “Naaha.m, bhikkhave, a~n~na.m ekaruupampi samanupassaami ya.m eva.m > purisassa citta.m pariyaadaaya ti.t.thati yathayida.m, bhikkhave, > itthiruupa.m. Itthiruupa.m, bhikkhave, purisassa citta.m pariyaadaaya > ti.t.thatii"ti. Pa.thama.m. > > "I do not say, bhikkhus, there is another single thing of form, the > perception of which so persistently overwhelms and stays in a man's mind, > bhikkhus, as the form of a woman. The form of a woman, bhikkhus, > persistently overwhelms and stays in a man's mind." This is the first > thing.â€? > etc > (Of course the same applies to women). > > 4) Indeed we don’t need to wait til Jataka 536 to read about the > foolishness of men. We can just open the texts at the very first Jataka > (no 1) to read about truly foolish men who were taken by Anathapindika to > listen to the Buddha who in the ‘thunderous tones as of a young lion > roaring......in a voice of eightfold perfection, the charm of which > ravished the ear, he preached to them the Truth in a discourse full of > sweetness and bright with varied beauty.â€? The men ‘rose up with hearts > converted’, threw away their other doctrines, took refuge in the Buddha, > kept sila and the precepts and so on. But as soon as the Buddha left > Savatthi, they returned to their old ideas and teachers. There is little > to match the foolishness of such acts in my view. In previous lives it was > the same. > > Indeed the entire Tipitaka is full of tales about the foolishness and > madness of wordlings -men and women. Nothing sexist about it, as Connie > said. > > I got quite lost in all the details of the Kunala Jataka and commentaries > (partly because I was watching the news while I looked at it;-), but I > take these as good reminders of how dangerous and powerful anusaya > (latent tendencies) are in both men and women and how precious is the > opportunity to develop wisdom with detachment now. Otherwise we just > continue endlessly in Samsara in our foolish ways, even if some of these > tendencies are not so very obvious in this life. > ***** > >And was the cuckoo Kunala (the Bodhisatta) right in advising that we not > >credit > >anything a woman says? > .... > S: Certainly in this example;-): > “Later, Punnamukha fell ill, and his hen birds deserted him and came to > Kunála. He drove them away, ministered to Punnamukha, and cheered him.â€? > > I've found these reflections useful. Thank you. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Welcome to DSG too - I hope you find the posts useful. We ask all new > members to read the Guidelines carefully;-) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36388 From: Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi, Matt - In a message dated 9/14/04 6:19:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mattroke@h... writes: > Whether we are in a place where things are clearly discernible, only > slightly discernible or not discernible at all, the only realities are > seeing and visible object. > > *Light*, *void of light* and *darkness*, along with black and colours, are > concepts experienced in the mind door. > > If there is no seeing and visible object then there can’t be the concept > that a place *void of light* is *dark*. > ========================= I get your point, and I think there is some correctness in it. Yet ... . The "yet" is the factthatf the concept of (relative) darkness or (degees of) dimness appears to be well based in directly observed phenomena. So I find that I remain less than fully convinced on the matter. It may well be the case, and probably *is* the case, that absences in general are known only through the mind door, but that in itself does not make them concept only. There certainly are things that are not mere concept but are known only through the mind door. According to Abhidhamma, for example, the paramattha dhamma of "water" is known only through the mind door, and the paramattha dhamma of nibbana, the "ultimate emptiness," is known only through the mind door. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36389 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Howard and Larry, op 14-09-2004 06:15 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: Howard quotes Larry. >> >> In regard to whether light dispells dark or dark dispells light, the >> flip-flopping from one position to another is actually delusion (aka >> ignorance, bewilderment, doubt, moha). See below. >> >> The antidote is to look at sabhava, the actuality of what happens... N: I like Larry's way of describing delusion. We may use different names for what appears through eyes, colour, light, black, but how can we find out what it is? By being aware now. That is the actuality of what happens, as Larry says. L: Over >> a period of time various colors arise and cease. Dark is actually black, >> not to be confused with "no eye consciousness". N: We cannot imagine what it means to be without eye-consciousness. Because when we close our eyes, there is still something appearing and we can notice the difference between dark and light. It is certainly not the complete darkness of blind beings. L: Black also arises and >> ceases. Black neither dispells white nor white black. Furthermore >> eye-consciousness doesn't dispell no-eye-consciousness, or vice-versa. >> However, the end of kamma does dispell kamma result, one manifestation >> of which is eye-consciousness. N: The arahat still receives vipaaka, but that is the result of former kamma, before he was an arahat. But he does not as an arahat commit kamma that can bring result. When he passes away there will not be rebirth, no eye and seeing anymore. > ========================== H: Indeed one sense of 'dark' is "black", and black is a color. But > another sense is of dimming - from slight to complete. Darkness in that sense > is > absence of light. N: See above, Howard, what is the reality now, its characteristic? The only way to understand seeing, colour, etc. H: Certainly ignorance is absence or obscuration of wisdom. I > don't think the matter is as simple as you present it. When a sighted person > gets > an eye illness or trauma to the eyes and s/he "descends into darkness," as it > is said, does s/he end up seeing the color black? N: See above. Nina. 36390 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:08am Subject: Vis. XIV, 100 and Tiika. Vis. XIV, 100 and Tiika. Text Vis. XIV,100: But that 'with root-cause' is (42)-(49) that associated with non-greed, etc., as the cause of the result. It is of eight kinds because it is classed according to joy, etc., like the profitable of the sense sphere (1)-(8). But it does not occur with respect to the six objects through giving, etc., as the profitable does; for it occurs only with respect to the six objects that are included among limited states, as rebirth-linking, life-continuum, death, and registration. But the prompted and unprompted states should be understood here as due to the source it has come from, and so on. And while there is no difference in the associated states, the resultant should be understood as passive like the reflection of a face in a looking-glass while the profitable is active like the face. ========================= Intro Vis. XIV, 100. Kusala kamma can produce eight types of ahetuka (rootless) kusala vipaakacittas and eight types of sahetuka (with roots) kusala vipaakacittas. In this section the Vis. deals with the eight types of sahetuka kusala vipaakacittas. ========================================= Vis. text: But that 'with root-cause' is (42)-(49) that associated with non-greed, etc., as the cause of the result. It is of eight kinds because it is classed according to joy, etc., like the profitable of the sense sphere. ========================================= N: They are results of kusala kamma. As we have seen, of the eight types of kusala citta of the sense-sphere four types are accompanied by wisdom, four are without wisdom, four types are accompanied by pleasant feeling, four types are accompanied by indifferent feeling, four types are unprompted and four types are prompted. The sahetuka vipaakacittas that are the results of kusala kamma are classified in the same way, but they do not perform wholesome deeds like giving, etc. ========================================== Vis text: But it does not occur with respect to the six objects through giving, etc., as the profitable does; for it occurs only with respect to the six objects that are included among limited states, as rebirth-linking, life-continuum, death, and registration. ========================================== N: The Tiika explains that the sahetuka vipaakacittas can be accompanied by the same three roots as the kusala cittas, but that these three roots are vipaaka, result. The sahetuka vipaakacittas have been taught as eightfold, in a similar way as the kusala cittas, they are kamaavacara cittas (of the sense-sphere) and they experience objects. Kaamaavacara cittas experience sense objects and these are limited (paritta, meaning inferior) or low (hiina); they are different from the jhaanacittas that do not experience sense objects but and lokuttara cittas that experience nibbaana. Thus, the sahetuka vipaakacittas that are the results of kusala kamma of the sense sphere also experience sense objects. They can perform the functions of rebirth-linking, life-continuum, death, and registration. The function of registration only occurs in the case of cittas of the sense sphere and in the sensuous planes of existence. Thus, its object is inferior, a sense object. The vipaakacittas that are rebirth-consciousness, bhavanga-citta (arising throughout life in between the processes of citta) and dying-consciousness do not experience objects that impinge on the six doorways, but they experience the same object as the last javanacittas of the previous life. The Tiika uses the term mahaa-vipaaka, and this term denotes the sahetuka vipaakacittas of the sense-sphere (with wholesome roots, sobhana hetus). Mahaa means great. They experience six classes of objects, thus, many kinds of objects. Kusala citta of the sense-sphere is called mahaa-kusala citta, it is accompanied by alobha and adosa and it may be accompanied by amoha or paññaa. The Tiika explains that though the sahetuka vipaakacittas are similar to the mahaa-kusala cittas because of the accompanying cetasikas, their way of occurring (pavatti-aakaara) is different. The kusala citta performs kusala through the doors kamma [N: of body, speech or mind], but the vipaakacitta does not. The vipaakacitta does not produce bodily intimation or speech intimation. N: The vipaakacittas do not perform deeds of generosity, etc. Bodily intimation and speech intimation are ruupas produced by citta which intends to convey a meaning through body or speech. Cittas can convey a meaning or intention in an unwholesome way or in a wholesome way. Speech can be wrong speech or right speech. ========================================== Vis text: But the prompted and unprompted states should be understood here as due to the source it has come from, and so on. ========================================== N: In a footnote the Tiika text is rendered by the translator of the Vis. : N: Kusala kamma that is unprompted, not induced, is stronger than kusala kamma that is induced, performed by a citta that has some hesitation. As we have seen in the section on kusala citta: But it is not so that unprompted kusala kamma must necessarily produce sahetuka vipaakacitta that is unprompted. We read in the Commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Topics of Abhidhamma, p. 193, 194) that excellent kusala kamma with three roots produces rebirth with three roots and that inferior kusala kamma with three roots and excellent kusala kamma with two roots produces rebirth with two roots. Different opinions of teachers are quoted by Buddhaghosa (Expositor (II, p. 358 and following). ========================================== Vis. text: And while there is no difference in the associated states, the resultant should be understood as passive like the reflection of a face in a looking-glass while the profitable is active like the face. ========================================== N: The Tiika explains the difference between active (ussaaha or with effort) and passive (nirussaaha, without effort). We read: The Tiika states that also because kusala cittas are powerful while they occur, they have the meaning of being active. The arahat has completely eradicated ignorance, clinging and conceit which were present in the succession of cittas as latent tendencies. For him there are no more cittas which can cause the arising of vipaakacittas. He has no more rebirth. Kusala kamma can condition rebirth in seven sensuous planes of existence: one human plane and six classes of deva planes. These are the seven happy sensuous planes of existence. So long as defilements have not been eradicated completely, we run the risk of an unhappy rebirth after our life term has come to an end. This should not discourage us, it can encourage us to develop right understanding at this moment, so that ignorance, the first link in the Dependent Origination can weaken and eventually be eradicated. ********* Nina. 36391 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:08am Subject: Re: [dsg]space, approach to rupa. Hi Howard, op 12-09-2004 17:48 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Thank you for the following. I see that I misunderstood what you meant > by "inward space." All that you mean by it is space within the body. (As far > as I view this matter, this is concept only.) N: It is one of the 28 kinds of rupa, thus, a dhamma, not a concept. Also rupas outside the body do not arise in isolation, like sound. It is accompanied by hardness and seven more inseparable rupas. They arise in groups. I do not know much about groups of rupa. I understand that in a body there are octads, nonads, decads, etc. and I find it understandable that these groups do not permeate each other and here inward space has a function. I have quoted some passages on rupakkhandha and I know that you find those hard to accept. But, Howard, should we reject what we do not understand yet? You can always ask about what you do not find understandable. I have read your posts on the D.O. The Visuddhimagga does not deal yet with it, it first deals with all dhammas as the soil in which understanding grows. Also the D.O. is that soil and after that the Vis. deals with the stages of insight. The soil has to be right, otherwise there is no basis for the growth of understanding. We read many details, such as about rupas, but these can help to correct wrong views we all have (including myself!), they correct on the level of intellectual understanding. If we do not carefully study rupa, citta and cetasika we are bound to have wrong interpretations of the D.O. We read Vis. XVII, 304: [Kinds of profundity:] now the Blessed One's word, The penetration is by developed insight. You are still wondering about . But the understanding of the fact that there are four conditions for different types of rupa can help. There is not merely citta as a condition for rupa. I agree that when a sense object impinges on a sensedoor, we do not have to think is this outside or inside. There can be attention to just the characteristic that appears. But some background info can help, also about rupa arising before it can be an object, and sense-base rupa arising before it becomes a doorway. Then you see how intricate conditions are, beyond control. All such details help. I like Htoo's straightforward and direct way of speaking about conditions: > Htoo: Nama dhamma and rupa dhamma are working on their own accord and there is > no one dictating this dhamma arise here and that dhamma arise there and this > dhamma disappear now and that dhamma disappear there and so on. > > Unlike suttanta teachings, patthana dhamma do not involve any personal things > or beings or sattas. But just dhamma arising in their own accord and interact > and interconnected each other and one another.. End quote. Howard, I know that you hace confidence in conditions, but I think that in order to understand D.O. we have to study the different types of condition, also with regard to D.O. Which reality conditions which other reality by which specific condition. Details are necessary so that we do not give our own interpretation to D.O. Nina. 36392 From: Andrew Levin Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:27am Subject: Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" <. > > > > ++++++++++++ > > > Dear Andrew , > > > I quote a sutta about the advantages of hearing/considering (and > > > insighting) Dhamma: > > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/anguttara_nikaya.%20(2)%2020htm.htm > > > Anguttara Nikaya > >> Robert, this looks somewhat dogmatic to me, to assume that one > can be > > reborn in the devas going on the mere recitation of the texts. > > Careful consideration is again something not possible for me at > this > > point, I'm not well enough to read through and develop an > > understanding, as I've said previously, and even pondering over > would > > be difficult for me at this stage. > >++++++++ > Dear Andrew, > as I said before it takes time for understanding to accumulate. It > is not only reciting of texts but it depends on the study > conditioning kusala. Robert, the point I am trying to get across is that I can't even study. When I open the book up, there is no studying, no ability to correlate one concept with another, there is only reading, as if it were a novel. So I'm not currently able to put together an understanding. I'm afraid I'm just making things worse by accumulating blocks upon blocks of knowledge. > > Sukin wrote about pariyatti (the theory, the study):"Because of this > lack of pariyatti, here referring to the panna of > this level, there is misunderstanding of what practice involves. > Pariyatti is not the `verbal knowledge' but indeed the level of > understanding which *knows* at least the value of developing > satipatthana and that this very moment is conditioned and anatta. And > though it may only be `thinking' in the beginning about just fallen > away dhammas, it knows that what ever level of panna arises is just > what is meant to be, and with this is already some detachment. > > And in this case, more understanding about conditionality and anatta > is accumulating as sankhara. Which is why, without correct pariyatti > and knowing conditioned realities in daily life, one will be deluded > into thinking that *more* can be achieved through some deliberate > effort on one's part via some formal practice or `deliberate > looking'. And this is to go against the principal of anatta > and conditionality."" > > When we think it is 'me" who is trying to understand it may seem > easy or hard, helpful or unhelpul. But when we know it is only > conditioned phenomena arising (no me anywhere) the study is purely > a reminder of what is real now. > RobertK 36393 From: Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/14/04 2:08:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > N: I like Larry's way of describing delusion. ======================== That position, as I understand it, is that the flip-flopping from one position to another is delusion. I would agree that such flip-flopping amounts to confusion, which is an instance of ignorance. However, holding to a wrong position is an even stronger form of delusion. Sometimes the recognition of being unsure about a matter and holding off on decision is a first glimmering of wisdom! Part of what I think you have pointed out, Nina, and that you indicate is part of Larry's point as well - and I paraphrase here - is that the best approach to wisdom is to not to cling to views, but, instead, to carefully examine "... what appears through eyes, colour, light, black, ..." and to determine "how can we find out what it is? By being aware now." I certainly agree with this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36394 From: ericlonline Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati/ Jon II Hey Jon, J> I've been through your various posts to me in which you refer to SN 54:13,and I think you make two main points. I hope you won't mind if I try to summarise them and give a response to all together. No Problem J> Eric, I read you as saying: A. The teaching on anapanasati given in SN 54:13 (and in the other anapanasati suttas) is not specifically directed to monks who are leading a certain lifestyle and who are already practising anapanasati. Yep J> B. Anapanasati is prescribed by the Buddha for all as the single factor that if developed will lead to the development of satipatthana. I was just pointing out how important the Buddha considered it is all. J > On the first point, I'd just like to draw your attention to the following passage from SN 54:13, namely: "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore.Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "[1] Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; ... J> I see the monk described here as necessarily being a person of well developed samatha and satipatthana. In this case the Buddha was talking to monks. But check out in the Samyuta 41.8 & 41.9. Here the householder Citta is talking with two ascetics from other traditions. Citta, a householder like you and me, says he has attained the 4th Jhana and is reputed to be a non-returner. Wonder how he attained to the 4th Jhana? Since he is a non-returner, and had jhanic capabilites, I am sure he must of practised some sort of samatha meditation. Do you think it possibly was Anapanasati? J > On the second point, I think you may be giving too much emphasis to the reference to a single factor. Consider for example the following 'single factor' sutta from AN I (Ch XVI, 1-10; PTS Gradual Sayings Vol I p.27): "Monks, there is one thing which, if practised and made much of, conduces to downright revulsion and disgust, to ending, tranquillity, full comprehension, to perfect enlightenment, to Nibbaana. What is that one thing? It is calling to mind the Buddha. "[The same for] ... Dhamma ... the Order ... the moralities ... giving up ... the devas ... in-breathing and out-breathing ... death ... the bodily constituents ... tranquillity. This one thing conduces to Nibbaana." J> Note that here mindfulness of breathing is put on a par with 9 other subjects of samatha development. Well you seem to be agreeing with me then. If in another Sutta he says it is One Factor and here groups it with 9 other factors then it seems that he held it in high regard. Not to mention, Anapanasati was what he was doing on the eve of his Enlightenment! Which one of the 9 do you use to cultivate Right Concentration (i.e. jhana) Jon? Or are you following an abbreviated version of the 8 fold path? J> What I think the Buddha is saying in SN 54:13 and the other 'anapanasati' suttas is that a person who develops anapanasati can, by pursuing that same practice in a particular way (to be described in the sutta), also bring to perfection the development of satipatthana. I have said this already Jon. And now you are saying person and not just monk. A change of mind maybe? Sure takes awhile for your ship to turn around! Well, no wonder, with all those books aboard, it must be a pretty large ship! Consider me a tug boat of sorts. :-) Also, to bolster my position. In the Samyuta just beyond the 41.9 mentioned above, the Buddha is talking to Headmen. Here he talks about teaching the SAME dhamma to 3 types of people e.g. Bhikkhus, lay followers of his and people of other sects. So, if he says he taught the same dhamma to all, then Anapanasati was taught for the benefit of all! PEACE E 36395 From: ericlonline Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:04pm Subject: Re: Hearing the Dhamma Hey Christine, Thanks for the article. Ven. Bodhi is doing his best to accomodate many types of practitioners and that is quite a wholesome endeavor. But you did not address what I said in my post. No problem! #4 of Stream Entry is Practice in accordance with the Dhamma. This is the 8 fold path. Right Concentration is defined as jhana. It seems there is no way around this in my eyes. Now Ven. Bodhi has presented a nice article to help dry insight meditators maybe feel better about what they do but I just dont know if it will bear fruit. Dont get me wrong, I hope it will, I just have my doubts. And if it does not, then well, you said it best... ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- PEACE E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Eric, all, > > The emphasis on Hearing the True Dhamma on this list follows from > what the Buddha taught were the factors of Stream Entry. > If one believes in rebirth then one knows how extremely rare human > birth is. And that even if one is fortunate enough to obtain a > human rebirth, it is much rarer still for the teachings of a Buddha > to be available at that time. Samsara is endless. Liberation as > taught by the Buddha, involves attaining four stages of Holiness - > the first, the one that ensures no further rebirths in the woeful > planes - is that of Sotapanna. Then the being is said to > have 'entered the Stream' which will carry to 'unbinding' in no more > than seven further rebirths. > Until one has attained Stream Entry there is no place of assured > safety from the worst dangers of rebirth. > > The Sotaapattisa.myutta has 74 suttas in 'Connected Discourses on > Stream-Entry'. > The four factors of Stream Entry are: > 1.Association with superior persons 2. Hearing the true Dhamma 3. > Careful attention, and 4. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma. > SN 55:6 > > Have you read Bhikkhu Bodhi's "The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple > According to the Pâli Suttas"? > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" 36396 From: ericlonline Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:40pm Subject: Theory and Practice - Eric Re: Anapanasati/ Sukin Hey Sukin, > S> I am not sure why you admire all those other people and > philosophies; I do like what some of them have said too. However > when it comes to judging whether they have Right View, I don't think any of them do. This means that none of them are enlightened and therefore them "finding meaning in their lives", really means > nothing as far as I am concerned. > Eric: As you see fit. But if you had the chance to listen > to a stream enterer, would you hesitate? Sukin: If for example Nina were to approach me and say that such and such a person was enlightened, I would definitely be very excited and would wish to meet and talk with that person. There have been claims that certain monks are/was enlightened, even to the point of being arahats. However now when I read what they have said, I have no reason to think that they were so, in fact, I consider some of them quite misguided even. So yes, in those cases where the claim comes from an unreliable source, I would surely hesitate. Ok let me ask you in this way. Would you listen to or be interested in the Buddha before his enlightenment? If you had the chance to talk with him while he was a mere Bodhisatta, would you? S> People may be able to enter Samadhi in an instant and experience fascinating states of mind. Some might talk with seemingly great authority about levels of consciousness and create elaborate theories about human experience and nature of reality. For me the test as to whether that person is really wise is in how much importance he gives to presently arising realities. This is for each to know and no descriptive signifier will allow another to realize the present arising realities no matter how much the benevolent intent. S> It is after all I believe, often the case that one does *not know* present conditions, that one ends up speculating about it. And what others may think to be impressive explanations, to me is more a product of mental proliferation rooted in one wrong view or the other. The Four Noble Truths, if a teaching is consistent with this, then it would qualify as Right View, otherwise not. Which is another way of saying that only the Buddha and his followers were/can be enlightened. I dont agree. The 4NT's were discovered by the Buddha not invented by him. S> It seems odd that people, including monks, have meditated (in some cases on the breath) for 20, 30 or 40 years and all they can talk about at the end of it, is `calm', `happiness', `peace' and so on. And when they advice anyone on `understanding' dhamma, they point to the `formal practice'. Forget about `wrong view', but do these people even know about `avijja'!! They talk about experiencing the vipassana nanas, and yet when it comes to knowing seeing, hearing, smelling and so on, they do not find it important enough to consider these. It is ignorance as in `ignoring' these very presently arising realities that causes them to cling to rites and rituals "formal meditation", and be deluded by illusory results. They are in fact encouraging ignorance though otherwise they claim to practice in order to "know". Maybe they are just pointing you in a direction that they know you will eventually realize the present arisen dhammas. What was the Buddha doing on the eve of his Enlightenment? He was doing a formal practice of meditation which he taught as Anapanasati. S> You often point to the Kalama Sutta. What I have written above will give you an idea as to how according to me, the Buddha's teachings can be verified. It is true that the level of understanding is only `intellectual' and doubt is still far from being eradicated. But is there a better way than to study the Teachings in order to get an increasingly better idea of what the Buddha meant? Sukin, please, I am saying it is both. Study and practice. I am not saying that contemplation is not needed or secondary for that matter. But when push comes to shove, you are going to have to leave all of this theorizing behind. Either you will intend to do it via meditation or death will force you! S> I am not saying that direct experience should not be taken into consideration, if the experience is indeed consistent with the Teachings, then there is no need to refer to it in retrospect in order to condition Saddha. Yes but the raft is not made of books! Why dont you see this? And where the raft meets the water, that has nothing to do with books! Now the books may have helped to build the raft but surely they must be left behind on the other shore. S> Meditators like to refer to the practice when advising others, but if indeed there was genuine satipatthana, one will know at the same time that it has arisen due to causes and conditions unrelated to any intention to have it. This is I believe why some members of DSG don't like to talk about their subjective experiences ;-). What is there after all to talk about when the moments of sati are so rare and of little strength and these are not tied to any particular conventional activity!? Tis a shame in my eyes. All this book knowledge and a fatalistic attitude of doing nothing is better than doing something. The Buddhas teaching was a doctrine of action not inaction! I guess it has followed the way of the west. Only things described in books matter and are considered important. S> You seem to object to `theory', but do you really believe we can get away from any theory? I think we start with some kind of conclusion, dwell on them and reinforce them all the time. And if we have had any experiences and do not check if this is consistent with the Buddha's teachings, then I believe that it becomes increasingly hard to get on the right track. Again, I am not objecting to theory! But it just has lost its taste in my mouth. I want the fruit and no longer pale anemic descriptions of it! PEACE E 36397 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: I disagree with you on this matter, Sarah. I believe that the > anti-feminism quoted in your post copied below (and that's what I read there) is good > evidence for not considering the Jataka Tales, stories, and commentaries - or > much of them, at least - to be Buddha word, but instead reworkings in the Buddhist context of traditional morality tales expressing prejudices existing in > the extant culture of the time. I really don't think that anti- feminist speech > should be accepted as skillful means of the Buddha and apologetics be offered up for it. I suspect that the > anti-feminism expressed in the Jataka quotes, were it really the perspective of > the Buddha, would have been enough to preclude the Buddha's originating the > sangha of nuns. > > +++++++++++++++++ Dear Howard, When the Buddha allowed the ordination of women he said in the anguttara Nikaya (and also the vinya pitaka cullavagga, if I remember rightly): http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara5/8-atthakanipata/006-gotamivaggo-e.htm "Ananda, if women did not obtain the going forth from the household as homeless, in the dispensation of the Thus Gone One, the dispensation would have lasted longer a thousand years Ananda, as women have obtined the going forth from the household to become homeless, it will not last long, the good Teaching will last only five hundred years Ananda, just as in an accomplished rice field, there falls an illness named white seeds and it does not last long. In the same manner in a dispensation in which there is the going forth for women, the holy life does not last long. Ananda, just as in an accomplished cane field, there comes an illness named turning red and it does not last long. In the same manner in a dispensation in which there is the going forth for women, the holy life does not last long."" ."" Thus according to this the Buddha saw dangers in women ordaining but this did not preclude him from originating the order of Bhikhunis. RobertK ___ 36398 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:09pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Nina, I hope you and your family are well. ============== >> The antidote is to look at sabhava, the actuality of what happens... N: I like Larry's way of describing delusion. We may use different names for what appears through eyes, colour, light, black, but how can we find out what it is? By being aware now. That is the actuality of what happens, as Larry says. ============== HH > It is very interesting, this discussion. Such different viewpoints about the same material. How do we find out what something is? We all agree that citta knows. Even in English this is so. Conscious is from the Latin "with knowing". We are all conscious, but yet we differ. How can this be? Knowing isn't insight, and we all know that too :-) ============= L: Over >> a period of time various colors arise and cease. Dark is actually black, >> not to be confused with "no eye consciousness". N: We cannot imagine what it means to be without eye-consciousness. Because when we close our eyes, there is still something appearing and we can notice the difference between dark and light. It is certainly not the complete darkness of blind beings. ============= HH > We always need to check whether we are just conscious, or whether we are thinking or just plain deluded. It is so easy to be fooled. It is very easy to discover how fooled we are. In the vision of both our eyes, there is a spot where we are blind. See http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/blindspot1.html. Do the test and one can see what rupas without eye-base look like. All day long we are seeing how the mind presents blindness. It turns out that blindness is seeing. But we don't see that, and never will if introspection is the only means at our disposal. ============= H: Indeed one sense of 'dark' is "black", and black is a color. But > another sense is of dimming - from slight to complete. Darkness in that sense is absence of light. N: See above, Howard, what is the reality now, its characteristic? The only way to understand seeing, colour, etc. ================= HH > If we limit ourselves to consciousness as the only means of knowing we may well assume that at night colours disappear, and that they return in the morning. Or that the moon shrinks and grows, or that it is a luminous body. It is in drawing together multiple observations with correct understanding of the relations between them, that insight gets a chance to develop. Colour and brightness are concepts based in reality. The experience of what appears now is just what it is, concepts or not. But the after-the-fact rigid imposition of a wrong or incomplete concept on what is observed will prevent any insight from arising. This is the grave error of the pariyatti camp. It should not surprise anyone that the unquestioning acceptance and rote learning of a doctrine, followed by its rigid imposition on every thing that is observed can only lead to, surprise, surprise, seeing the doctrine everywhere. There is no discovery of reality in this at all. Kind Regards Herman 36399 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:19pm Subject: RE: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Robert, Interesting discussions. ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: I disagree with you on this matter, Sarah. I believe that the > anti-feminism quoted in your post copied below (and that's what I read there) is good > evidence for not considering the Jataka Tales, stories, and commentaries - or > much of them, at least - to be Buddha word, but instead reworkings in the Buddhist context of traditional morality tales expressing prejudices existing in > the extant culture of the time. I really don't think that anti- feminist speech > should be accepted as skillful means of the Buddha and apologetics be offered up for it. I suspect that the > anti-feminism expressed in the Jataka quotes, were it really the perspective of > the Buddha, would have been enough to preclude the Buddha's originating the > sangha of nuns. > > +++++++++++++++++ Dear Howard, When the Buddha allowed the ordination of women he said in the anguttara Nikaya (and also the vinya pitaka cullavagga, if I remember rightly): http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara5/8-atthakanipata/006-gotamivaggo-e.htm "Ananda, if women did not obtain the going forth from the household as homeless, in the dispensation of the Thus Gone One, the dispensation would have lasted longer a thousand years Ananda, as women have obtined the going forth from the household to become homeless, it will not last long, the good Teaching will last only five hundred years Ananda, just as in an accomplished rice field, there falls an illness named white seeds and it does not last long. In the same manner in a dispensation in which there is the going forth for women, the holy life does not last long. Ananda, just as in an accomplished cane field, there comes an illness named turning red and it does not last long. In the same manner in a dispensation in which there is the going forth for women, the holy life does not last long."" ."" Thus according to this the Buddha saw dangers in women ordaining but this did not preclude him from originating the order of Bhikhunis. ========== Perhaps we can also conclude, then, that it was less important in the eyes of the Buddha for there to be a long-lasting dispensation than to exclude women ? Kind Regards Herman 36400 From: Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Nina, N: "We cannot imagine what it means to be without eye-consciousness." L: One qualm, hearing a sound is being without eye-consciousness. I,m sure blindness comes in a variety of manifestations both with and without eye-consciousness. Larry 36401 From: Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 0:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi, Robert (and Sarah) - In a message dated 9/14/04 6:54:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > I disagree with you on this matter, Sarah. I believe that the > >anti-feminism quoted in your post copied below (and that's what I > read there) is good > >evidence for not considering the Jataka Tales, stories, and > commentaries - or > >much of them, at least - to be Buddha word, but instead reworkings > in the Buddhist context of traditional morality tales expressing > prejudices existing in > >the extant culture of the time. I really don't think that anti- > feminist speech > >should be accepted as skillful means of the Buddha and apologetics > be offered up for it. I suspect that the > >anti-feminism expressed in the Jataka quotes, were it really the > perspective of > >the Buddha, would have been enough to preclude the Buddha's > originating the > >sangha of nuns. > > > >+++++++++++++++++ > Dear Howard, > When the Buddha allowed the ordination of women he said in the > anguttara Nikaya (and also the vinya pitaka cullavagga, if I > remember rightly): > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- > Nikaya/Anguttara5/8-atthakanipata/006-gotamivaggo-e.htm > > "Ananda, if women did not obtain the going forth from the household > as homeless, in the dispensation of the Thus Gone One, the > dispensation would have lasted longer a thousand years Ananda, as > women have obtined the going forth from the household to become > homeless, it will not last long, the good Teaching will last only > five hundred years > Ananda, just as in an accomplished rice field, there falls an > illness named white seeds and it does not last long. In the same > manner in a dispensation in which there is the going forth for > women, the holy life does not last long. > Ananda, just as in an accomplished cane field, there comes an > illness named turning red and it does not last long. In the same > manner in a dispensation in which there is the going forth for > women, the holy life does not last long."" > ."" > Thus according to this the Buddha saw dangers in women ordaining but > this did not preclude him from originating the order of Bhikhunis. > RobertK > ___ ============================= I see this latter business as nothing more than a noting of the effect of mixing the sexes in a context in which there is supposed to be celibacy. (The order of Bhikkhus already existed.) While the mutual attraction of opposite sexes (as is the norm) in proximity to each other would have created difficulty, the Buddha obviously was "willing to be persuaded" that allowing going forth for people independent of sex took precedence. On the other hand, had the Buddha had such a "hina" (lowly, even despicable) view of women as expressed in the Jataka material, I would find it unlikely he would have allowed a Bhikkhuni Sangha. The material quoted by Sarah* is much worse than a matter of being unflattering to women, and I DO NOT believe it was the view of the Buddha. With metta, Howard *For the record: Obviously I don't think that Sarah shares the views expressed in the quoted material or is sexist in any way. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36402 From: Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 100 and Tiika. Hi Nina, In what kind of citta process does registration with roots occur? Also, it seems like the object of bhavanga, etc., would have to be a concept; correct? Larry 36403 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:05pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner11-Introduction(h) Hi everyone, Thank you to Sarah for her efforts in keeping this study corner fed :-) ================= "Summarizing the cittas which perform their function in a sense door process and then in a the mind-door process when a rupa impinges on one of the sense-doors: " ================== H > Rupas impinging on sense-doors is very much a spatial metaphor, to me. Is that warranted? Given that space is itself a rupa, is there a more accurate way to describe it? With regards to all the cittas below (including the snipped ones), how are they known, or experienced? Kind Regards Herman -atita-bhavanga (past bhavanga) -bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga) -bhavangupaccheda (arrest bhavanga, the last bhavanga arising before the object is experienced through the sense door) 36404 From: Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:10pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Herman (and all else here), H: "There is no discovery of reality in this at all." L: I agree that understanding reality isn't just 5-door consciousness and wrong view is certainly and obviously the product of desire and even right view when not directly 'seen' is more often than not held with desire and desire is the root of suffering. The question is, why does one want to discover reality? To gain pleasure seems doomed to failure. The only other reason I can think of is to escape suffering. Maybe a scientist can figure out a way to eliminate blindness and all physical ailments all together. Do you think that will end suffering? Will a knowledge of cones and rods eliminate desire for visible object? I'm not saying we should reject science. Mostly I was trying to hook you into reading the Visuddhimagga. Happy trails, Larry 36405 From: nori Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:08pm Subject: Pain, fake pills and electric shocks - Science channel Hi Dhamma Friends, I saw an interesing show on the Science channel regarding sensation and the experience of pain. They had set up some equipment to give mild electric shocks on the arm of many participants. They said that they were testing 2 new drugs, one that makes people experience more pain, and another that makes one experience less pain. They were however just fake placebo pills of flour. After they explained and gave everyone the pills that makes one experience more pain, ... everyone experienced more pain. After they explained and gave everyone the pills that makes one experience less pain, ... everyone experienced less pain. The results were very dramatic and pronounced as they showed everyones reaction on video. It was pretty amazing. In both cases they were getting the same level (current) of electric shock, yet only the expectation in their mind dramatically changed their experience of it. metta, n () r i 36406 From: nori Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:17pm Subject: Pain, fake pills, and electric shocks - Science channel (w/added stuff) Oops, same post as before, just added some stuff I forgot. --- Hi Dhamma Friends, I saw an interesing show on the Science channel regarding sensation and the experience of pain. They had set up some equipment to give mild electric shocks on the arm of many participants. They said that they were testing 2 new drugs, one that makes people experience more pain, and another that makes one experience less pain. They were however just fake placebo pills of flour. After they explained and gave everyone the pills that makes one experience more pain, ... everyone experienced more pain. After they explained and gave everyone the pills that makes one experience less pain, ... everyone experienced less pain. The results were very dramatic and pronounced as they showed everyones reaction on video. The same shock in one case made people fall over in their chairs and beg to have it stopped, while in the other case they hardly twitched. It was pretty amazing. In both cases they were getting the same level (current) of electric shock, yet only the expectation in their mind dramatically changed their experience of it. metta, n () r i 36407 From: gazita2002 Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:01pm Subject: Re: Bagels, Forest ....Andrew L Dear Andrew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > > Robert, the point I am trying to get across is that I can't even > study. When I open the book up, there is no studying, no ability to > correlate one concept with another, there is only reading, as if it > were a novel. So I'm not currently able to put together an > understanding. I'm afraid I'm just making things worse by > accumulating blocks upon blocks of knowledge. > When I read this, Andrew, I had a strong feeling of my head bursting! I think you are showing a great deal of wisdom by knowing that these blocks and blocks of information are making things worse for you. Sometimes, I feel like there is too much to learn and I think that's the time to stop and go for a long bush walk .... at least, its what I do. Not suggesting this is what you should do, but I am relating to what you are saying and maybe its a good time for you to just back off a bit, just read what feels comfortable and leave the rest. Remember, the Dhamma can be like the poisonous snake, if taken the wrong way will turn around and bite us. Be easy on yourself Andrew. You can't make the knowledge grow, it just happens by itself all in good time. May you have lots of patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 36408 From: nori Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:04pm Subject: What is Meditation ? Hi Dhamma Friends, When most people sit for meditation, I think most people will perform Anapana of some sort, or the various forms of Vipassana. I think maybe less people will perform meditation in the following way as I will give in example. ---- I will copy a passage from `The Questions of King Milinda' (Milinda Panna). While not part of the Nikayas, it is considered authoritative and consists supposedly of replies from an arahant, or at least, an elder monk, named Nagasena. He defines Meditation in a way I believe is consistent with the Nikayas, but is, when explicated, different from the general agreement of what meditation actually is. His definition of meditation is partly this: A sustained and directed investigation into a chosen aspect of our nature and reality. This, I believe, includes processes of directed thought and reflection (i.e. investigation and evaluation), in addition to direct observation. Nagasena in Questions of King Milinda (oxford `Sacred Books of the East', T. Rhys Davids) Book V, 6: 'There are certain types of meditation, O king, that have been made known by the Blessed One, by him of knowledge and insight, by the Arahat, the Buddha Supreme. And they are these. The idea of the impermanence (of every thing and of every being), the idea of the absence of any abiding principle (any soul in any thing or any being), the idea of the impurity and the idea of the danger connected with the body, the idea of getting rid of evil dispositions, the idea of freedom from passion, the idea of peace, the idea of the dissatisfaction with the things of the world, the idea of the transitory nature of all conditions, … the idea of love...sympathy... with all beings,...', the idea of equanimity in all the changing circumstances of life, the idea of death, and the idea of the body. These, O king, are the subjects for meditation prescribed by the blessed one. And of these, whoever longing to be delivered from old age and death, takes any one as his subject of meditation, by that meditation does he become free from passion, set free from malice, set free from dullness, set free from pride, set free from wrong views. By that does he cross the ocean of Samsara, …" Book V, 15: 'And what O king, is the Blessed One's jewel of meditation? The meditation that consists of specific conceptions, and of investigation regarding them; - the meditation that consists of reflection only, specific conceptions being lost sight of; - the meditation that continues after specific conceptions and reflection on them have both ceased; - the meditation that is void (of lusts, evil dispositions, and Karma); - the meditation from which three signs are absent (of an unconverted life - lust, malice, and dullness) are absent; - the meditation in which no low aspirations remain. And when a Bhikku, O king, has put on this jewel of meditation (Samadhi), then ideas of lust, and ideas of anger, and ideas of cruelty, and all the various bad thoughts that have their basis in evil dispositions of pride, self-righteousness, adhesion to wrong views, and doubt - all these, since they come into contact with meditation, flow off from him, disperse and are dispelled, they stay not with him, adhere not to him. Just, O king as when water has fallen on a lotus leaf it flows off from it, is dispersed and scattered away, stays not on it … and why not? Because of the exceeding purity of the habit of meditation. This, O king is called "The Blessed One's jewel of meditation,"…" --- So while, it seems generally understood by many that conception and thought, should be left out of meditation, in the above example, "specific conceptions, and ... investigation regarding them (those conceptions)" is well included, at least in the early stages of development. The way I see it it this: states of concentration, such as those achieved through anapana, as well as other states of concentration can develop calm (samatha) and discernment in perception when done correctly, as well as other effects. Meditation, as I have given in this example (i.e. investigation, evaluation) develops wisdom and insight, that is, builds intelligence, and dispells ignorance. with metta, nori 36409 From: connieparker Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:56pm Subject: Re: Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Yikes, Sarah, Htoo - ..... S: I believe it is correct that not all akusala cittas give or can give rise to results as I've stressed before and that quotes such as the one I gave from the commentary to the A-Sangaha stress this: "a wholesome or unwholesome kamma which, although unable to produce a result by itself,becomes the condition for ..."etc. All kusala and akusala cittas accumulate, but it takes many such accumulated cittas before there is any kama-patha which will bring a result. When RobM and many others suggest that each wholesome/unwholesome javana mental state brings or has the potential to bring about a result, I don't think it's correct. Otherwise why have natural decisive support condition rather than just kamma condition? Each moment there is a slight lobha when we look up at the computer screen, it accumulates, but it cannot bring a result as Iunderstand. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now you come back to kamma patha. It is fine if you understand both. There are many vipaka cittas in our daily sense door process. But kamma patha when give rise its full effect, it is a great event like storm, floods, great fire, earthquakes and many other disasters. But when you are now sitting and reading up my messages, in between your understanding through your mind-door process there are also 5- sense-door-processes. These are also vipaka cittas like cakkhuvinnana, sampaticchana, santirana, tadarammana, bhavanga etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ...what's kamma? Any volitional act, from cetana directing the cetasikas of each citta to the conventional stories of deeds and 'will'... the nonself and conventional self kinds, I guess. Accumulations are (past/performed) kamma. Each javana has potential because of statements like: CMA p201 [Productive (janaka) kamma] ...Only a kamma that has attained the status of a full course of action (see section22 below) can perform the function of producing rebirth linking, but ***all wholesome and unwholesome kammas without exception can produce results during the course of existence***. All my looking at things accumulates (is kamma) and becomes/later acts as various conditions for more seeing, liking, disliking, etc? No single causes or results. peace, connie 36410 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 0:42am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner12-Introduction(i) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Introduction [contd] ***** I think that it is useful for the reader to review the enumeration of cittas I have given above, since I, in the following chapters on cetasikas, shall refer to cittas performing different functions in processes and to cittas which do not arise in a process. All these cittas are accompanied by different types of cetasikas. The study of cetasikas will help us to have more understanding of the intricate operations of the mind, of citta and cetasikas. It will help us to understand in theory that citta and cetasikas act according to their own conditions, and that an abiding agent who could direct mental activities is not to be found. The study of the realities as taught by the Buddha can remind us to investigate them when they appear in our daily life. Theoretical understanding of the truth is a foundation for the development of direct under-standing of realities as they present themselves one at a time through the six doors, through the senses and the mind. Since the aim of the study of the Abhidhamma is the development of right understanding of the realities of our life, I refer in this book time and again to its development. ***** [Introduction to be continued] Metta, Sarah ====== 36411 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Howard, Dighanakha & All, I understand and respect your comments, Harsh comments about women are never my choice of topic, but as D. asked for feedback, my own approach is to suspend judgment and to consider and reflect further when I come across anything surprising or even shocking in the texts. So very often what seems surprising or bewildering at one time, becomes a little clearer at a later time when understood a little more in the context of the entire teachings. There’s no rule that the Jataka commentaries or even verses or any other parts of the teachings should necessarily be accepted or appreciated by anyone however. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > What you quote from suttas in which the Buddha points out the > preeminance of the attraction women hold for men is, as you point out, > balanced by > mention of the corresponding impact that men have on women. .... S: I quoted from AN, Book of Ones, ch1, 1-10 where this is the case. What happens if we read a similar passage in another book without any such balance? For example, let me quote first and reference later: “Bhikkhus, I do not know of any other form so enticing, desirable, intoxicating, binding and causing infatuation and so dangerous for the noble ending of unpleasantness as the form of the woman. Bhikkhus, sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and clinging to the form of the woman come to grief for a long time become subjective Bhikkhus, I do not know of any other sound, . . . re. . . any other smell,. . . re. . . any other taste,. . . re. . . any other touch so enticing, desirable, intoxicating, binding and causing infatuation and so dangerous for the noble ending of unpleasantness as the touch of the woman. Bhikkhus, sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and clinging to the touch of the woman come to grief for a long time having become subjective. <...> Bhikkhus, sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and clinging to the form of the woman come to grief for a long time become subjectiveBhikkhus, I do not know of any other form so enticing, desirable, intoxicating, binding and causing infatuation and so dangerous for the noble ending of unpleasantness as the form of the woman. Bhikkhus, sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and clinging to the form of the woman come to grief for a long time become subjective Bhikkhus, I do not know of any other form so enticing, desirable, intoxicating, binding and causing infatuation and so dangerous for the noble ending of unpleasantness as the form of the woman. Bhikkhus, sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and clinging to the form of the woman come to grief for a long time having become subjective.” ..... S: After the quote, do we read the same lines about ‘the form of a man’ etc, the corollary we’d expect as before? No. Instead we read: “The woman talks to one with sword in hand and even to a sprite, Gets mixed up even with snake poison, which if stings would die. A woman does not speak with only one, Gets hold of the confused with a glance and smile, Or showing the body or with charming words Even the very pure are struck and fall The five strands of sense pleasures are seen in the woman, As forms, sounds, tastes, smells and touches....” <...> .... S: Are these lines about women any less unflattering than those in the Jataka verse I quoted about ‘the wiles, the wickedness and immorality of women-folk’ in Kunala Jataka, no536? I’m not sure. As Rob suggested, it doesn’t mean all women are like these descriptions, but who are we to question the knowledge of the Buddha, the great arahants and so on who could recall all their past lives and really understood the meaning of inherent tendencies and latent defilements which are so much more deep-rooted than any ideas we may have learnt about feminism or political correctness in this lifetime? The Vinaya texts are full of tales of the foolishness and vulnerability of men to the charms of women.Hence the laying down of so many rules on this account which many people see today as being sexist, referring to the ‘second-class’ rules of bhikkhunis and so on. Back to the sutta quoted which can be read in full here: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara3/5-pancakanipata/006-nivaranavaggo-e.htm 5. Màtàputtasuttaü- The mother and son. This is how it started: “006.05. At one time The Blessed One abode in the monastery offered by Anathapindika in Jeta's grove in Savatthi. At that time both mother and son a bhikkhu and bhikkhuni had observed the rains in Savatthi. They constantly desired each others sight. The mother desired to see the son and the son desired to see the mother. The two seeing each other constantly, a relationship began and with the relationship confidence got established and they approached each other Fallen in love for each other without giving up robes, they secretly had sexual intercourse.” .... S: Of course as it stresses, it takes two sets of very perverted attachment in this case and by implication, as in the Jataka tale and other tales about fools, neither men or women are spared from the Buddha’s penetrating insights into the basest of intentions. Naturally, if he is addressed bhikkhus (or male birds), the emphasis is going to be on the dangers of association with women. To both men and women he also stressed the perversions and the way we take the ugly form of women for being beautiful and so on. Some might find even these descriptions distasteful too. So are all women (and men) capable of such despicable motives or acts as accused of in the Jataka tale or elsewhere or do the examples just pertain to the exceptionally bad lot? Again, I would suspend judgment, but have always found the following tale from Qus of King Milinda very interesting indeed: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/sbe3515.htm [WOMEN'S WHILES.] 42. 'Venerable Nâgasena, it has been said by the Blessed One: With opportunity, and secrecy, And the right woo'r, all women will go wrong-- Aye, failing others, with a cripple even 1." ***** S: Please read the rest at the link and let me know what you think! I hope this partly answer’s Dighanakha’s qu in his post to Christine about how some ‘hardcore dsg members deal with this problem’. In short, speaking only for myself, I just leave aside parts of the texts I have difficulty with, knowing how very little wisdom has been accumulated to date....just enough to have confidence that it’s likely to be this ignorance rather than the texts themselves that blinds my vision. As Jon also wrote before to Howard: Jon: “I believe that when we come across something like this that runs counter to our intuitive views we should resist the temptation to immediately rationalise or reject it, and should simply acknowledge the difference that exists and keep it in mind for future reference. If later we find it confirmed by other textual sources, then maybe we need to consider further our views on the subject.” ***** and on another thread to Herman: Jon: “On the face of it, the story-line runs counter to standards we have been brought up to consider fair and decent. Actually, there are a number of aspects to the teachings that run counter to either our taught values or innately held beliefs, but many of these things we have now come to recognise as having merit or as more than likely being in accordance with the way things are.” ***** and once more: Jon: “If it's any consolation, Chris, many people have gone through similar exasperations in coming to understand the teachings. Being one of those myself, I've come to realise that there's a very simple explanation for this -- the teachings are counter-intuitive to wrong view!” ****** Metta, Sarah p.s Btw, Dighanakha, I thought your parody on the ‘consistent approach to the texts’ starting with “In the Kunala Jataka we learn that all women are actually different from how they conventionally appear to be”, was rather witty and clever, not that I wish to encourage you;-). =================================== 36412 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > Interesting discussions. > > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- > Nikaya/Anguttara5/8-atthakanipata/006-gotamivaggo-e.htm > > "Ananda, if women did not obtain the going forth from the household > as homeless, in the dispensation of the Thus Gone One, the > dispensation would have lasted longer a thousand years Ananda, as > women have obtined the going forth from the household to become > homeless, it will not last long, the good Teaching will last only > five hundred years > Ananda, just as in an accomplished rice field, there falls an > illness named white seeds and it does not last long. In the same > manner in a dispensation in which there is the going forth for > women, the holy life does not last long. > Ananda, just as in an accomplished cane field, there comes an > illness named turning red and it does not last long. In the same > manner in a dispensation in which there is the going forth for > women, the holy life does not last long."" > ."" > Thus according to this the Buddha saw dangers in women ordaining but > this did not preclude him from originating the order of Bhikhunis. > > ========== > > Perhaps we can also conclude, then, that it was less important in the > eyes of the Buddha for there to be a long-lasting dispensation than to > exclude women ? > >+++++++++ Dear Herman, Later in this same sutta the buddha said; "Ananda, just as a man was to build an embankment as a future protection for a huge reservoir, so that water would not reach over the boundary these eight strong rules are declared to the bhikkhunis not to be thrown out until life lasts, as future protection."" He allowed ordination but set out the 8 garuka (weighty, heavy) rules that all bhikkhuni must abide by as a means to extend the future of the sasana. The commentary says that because of these 8 rules the sasana can last 5000 years; and the first council also helped to extend it beyond the 500 years. Robertk 36413 From: Date: Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is Meditation ? Hi, Nori - In a message dated 9/14/04 11:11:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > Hi Dhamma Friends, > > When most people sit for meditation, I think most people will perform > Anapana of some sort, or the various forms of Vipassana. > > I think maybe less people will perform meditation in the following > way as I will give in example. > ================================ This is very interesting, Nori. I suspect this will be very well received on this list in particular. I think that what Ven Nagansena had to say here has much to commend it and really does constitute an important part of the cultivational practice. I don't, however, think it describes the core bhavana offered by the Buddha, as in the Satipatthana and Anapanasati suttas for example. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36414 From: Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 0:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/15/04 5:36:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > What happens if we read a similar passage in another book without any > such balance? > > For example, let me quote first and reference later: > > “Bhikkhus, I do not know of any other form so enticing, desirable, > intoxicating, binding and causing infatuation and so dangerous for the > noble ending of unpleasantness as the form of the woman. Bhikkhus, > sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and clinging to the > form of the woman come to grief for a long time become subjective > Bhikkhus, I do not know of any other sound, . . . re. . . any other > smell,. . . re. . . any other taste,. . . re. . . any other touch so > enticing, desirable, intoxicating, binding and causing infatuation and so > dangerous for the noble ending of unpleasantness as the touch of the > woman. Bhikkhus, sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and > clinging to the touch of the woman come to grief for a long time having > become subjective. > <...> > Bhikkhus, sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and > clinging to the form of the woman come to grief for a long time become > subjectiveBhikkhus, I do not know of any other form so enticing, > desirable, intoxicating, binding and causing infatuation and so dangerous > for the noble ending of unpleasantness as the form of the woman. Bhikkhus, > sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and clinging to the > form of the woman come to grief for a long time become subjective > Bhikkhus, I do not know of any other form so enticing, desirable, > intoxicating, binding and causing infatuation and so dangerous for the > noble ending of unpleasantness as the form of the woman. Bhikkhus, > sentient beings, attached, swooned, bound, infatuated and clinging to the > form of the woman come to grief for a long time having become subjective.â€? > ..... > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. No balance, but no problem either. It is a warning to monks about a very powerful area of craving. ----------------------------------------------------- > S: After the quote, do we read the same lines about ‘the form of a man’ > etc, the corollary we’d expect as before? No. Instead we read: > > “The woman talks to one with sword in hand and even to a sprite, > Gets mixed up even with snake poison, which if stings would die. > A woman does not speak with only one, > Gets hold of the confused with a glance and smile, > Or showing the body or with charming words > Even the very pure are struck and fall > The five strands of sense pleasures are seen in the woman, > As forms, sounds, tastes, smells and touches....â€? > <...> > .... > S: Are these lines about women any less unflattering than those in the > Jataka verse I quoted about ‘the wiles, the wickedness and immorality of > women-folk’ in Kunala Jataka, no536? I’m not sure. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think it is *way* less unflattering. Many women do offer bodily glimpses and enticing words. And men are attracted. The relationship between the sexes is as it is, partly determined by biology and partly by society. But this material is most gentle compared to the Jataka material, which I find scurrilous. -------------------------------------------------- As Rob suggested, it> > doesn’t mean all women are like these descriptions, but who are we to > question the knowledge of the Buddha, the great arahants and so on who > could recall all their past lives and really understood the meaning of > inherent tendencies and latent defilements which are so much more > deep-rooted than any ideas we may have learnt about feminism or political > correctness in this lifetime? ------------------------------------------------- Howard: My questioning is what material constitutes the Buddha word, and I question it out of respect for the Buddha. And, yes, I will question. If I didn't question, I would be a fool. Saddha to me is confidence and trust, but not blind faith. ------------------------------------------------- > > The Vinaya texts are full of tales of the foolishness and vulnerability of > men to the charms of women.Hence the laying down of so many rules on this > account which many people see today as being sexist, referring to the > ‘second-class’ rules of bhikkhunis and so on. > > ============================ With metta, and confidence in the triple gem, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36415 From: Klimov, Yulia Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:00am Subject: Hurricaine Ivan I just wanted to offer anyone evacuating my house in Hollywood, Florida. I should have posted it sooner, but only today I realized that how many people are evcuating. Yulia 36416 From: Dan D. Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Dear Nina, When you say, "We cannot imagine what it means to be without eye- consciousness," I beg to differ. There are many, many moments of hearing, thinking, tasting, etc. that are without eye-consciousness. Aside from word games about whether darkness is really the color black or whether it is "light dispells darkness" or "darkness dispells light", the experience of being without eye-consciousness is very common. In those moments there is no eye-consciousness, no light detected, complete darkness. Dan 36417 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:10am Subject: Re: Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Connie: ...what's kamma? Any volitional act, from cetana directing the cetasikas of each citta to the conventional stories of deeds and 'will'... the nonself and conventional self kinds, I guess. Accumulations are (past/performed) kamma. Each javana has potential because of statements like:CMA p201 [Productive (janaka) kamma] ...Only a kamma that has attained the status of a full course of action (see section22 below) can perform the function of producing rebirth linking, but ***all wholesome and unwholesome kammas without exception can produce results during the course of existence***.All my looking at things accumulates (is kamma) and becomes/later acts as various conditions for more seeing, liking, disliking, etc? No single causes or results. peace, connie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Connie, Brilliant! There are patisandhi and pavatti that kamma can give rise to their effect. There is an exception in case of 12 akusala cittas. While all 12 akusala cittas can give rise to kamma that can give rise to pavatti effects, only 11 akusala cittas give rise to patisandhi effects. Uddhacca citta does not give rise to patisandhi effect. Nina has explained this in her posts. And I replied her that I had read the Tiika in Myanmar version regarding uddhacca. All 12 akusala do give rise to kamma that can give rise to pavatti effect or in the course of existence that is through of the life except patisandhi. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36418 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:39am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 062 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Vinnanacayatana arupa jhana or the 2nd arupa jhana take the object citta which is the 1st arupa jhana or akasanancayatana arupa jhana. That arammana or object is paramattha dhamma that is citta. This is a distinction in vinnanancayatana arupa jhana cittas. All 5 rupa jhanas and the 1st arupa jhana take the object pannatta. They are not taking paramattha dhamma as their object or arammana. Again, the practitioner when he emerges from bhavanga cittas that followed the single vinnanancayatana arupa jhana citta, he has a look at what has happened and he checks his mind. He realises that he now has 2nd arupa jhana or vinnanancayatana arupa jhana. He has to exercise on his attained jhana so that his jhana becomes much more proficient. In vinnanancayata jhana, there is ekaggata cetasika as jhana factor and upekkha vedana accompanies ekaggata. This jhana is well calm and it is calmer than akasanancayatana arupa jhana. He has to practise to be able to access vinnanacayata jhana whenever he wants to stay in that 2nd arupa jhana. He has to practise to be able to stay in that jhana as long as he wants. He has to practise this jhana so that he can emerge from this at his will. He has to contemplate on this 2nd arupa jhana frequently. Through these exercises and checking, he becomes to realise that this vinnanancayatana jhana is quite close to akasanancayatana jhana. His jhana may at any time fall back to akasanancayatana jhana. This again may draw him back to rupa jhanas and finally back to kamavacara dhamma. Through contemplation, he becomes dispassionate on vinnanancayatana and he tries to stay without that vinnanancayatana. If there is no vinnanancayatana then there will be no chance to fall back to akasanancayatana. To do that, the practitioner has to practise his mind to take attention that there is nothing at all including vinnanancayatana. Now he is trying to see at an object which is nothing. This nothingness is just an idea and it is a pannatta. With his continued effort and practise and when conditions are there, there arise a citta that has ekaggata as jhana factor and this citta is accompanied by upekkha vedana. The object that this citta is taking is nothingness or natthibho-pannatta or the idea that there is nothing at all. There is no nivarana and there is no rupa related object. This is the third arupa jhana citta and it just arises once for the first time. After arising from bhavanga cittas, there arise vithi cittas taking contemplation on what has happened. Now the practitioner has to practise his 3rd arupa jhana or akincinnayatana arupa jhana. When this jhana citta arise in non- arahats, it is called 'akincinnayatana arupavacara arupakusala citta'. This citta is 72nd citta of 89 cittas in total. When this 3rd arupa jhana citta arises in arahats, it is 'akincinnayatana arupavacara arupakiriya citta. This citta is 80th citta of 89 cittas in total. When those who attained 3rd arupa jhana die while they are in 3rd arupa jhana as maranasanna javana, they will be reborn in arupa brahma bhumi as arupa brahma. When they are reborn in that realm, the patisandhi citta is 'akincinnayatana arupavacara arupavipaka citta'. This citta is 76th citta of 89 cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 2. kinca means something and akinca means nothing. 36419 From: ericlonline Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:55am Subject: Re: What is Meditation ? Hey Nori, N>So while, it seems generally understood by many that conception and thought, should be left out of meditation, in the above example, "specific conceptions, and ... investigation regarding them (those conceptions)" is well included, at least in the early stages of development. Well said. Vicara and Vitakka have been translated in different ways. Do you think they mean discursive thought? And why are they left behind in the jhana progression? N> The way I see it it this: states of concentration, such as those achieved through anapana, as well as other states of concentration can develop calm (samatha) and discernment in perception when done correctly, as well as other effects. This is not the main focus or goal of Anapana though. Let us not forget this. N>Meditation, as I have given in this example (i.e. investigation, evaluation) develops wisdom and insight, that is, builds intelligence, and dispells ignorance. OK but they are supports for each other. This is not an either or type of proposition. Wisdom supports calm abiding and calm abiding supports wisdom. Or Right Concentration goes hand in hand with Right View. Is this 'intelligence' you speak of above conceptual in its nature? PEACE E 36420 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perversions Dear Sarah, op 14-09-2004 12:06 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: . > S: Yes. For example now, we may look at our hands as we type or look at > our face in the mirror when we wash. We recognise the face and there’s > bound to be clinging and ignorance and therefore perversion of sanna, but > usually no wrong view or idea of a self existing at these times, I think. > Only panna can know when there’s awareness what kind of kilesa it is > appearing. N: Your examples are clear, thank you. My only point is the texts where I read what is eradicated at the stage of the sotapanna. sometimes it is difficult to have an opportunity for asking details, but Jon and I can also ask Kh. Anop, he knows such a lot. Another point for India, as I understand, all the mind-door processes of citta that succeed a sense-door process have a not so classifiable object? Thus, past rupa is not a concept, but it is not so classifiable, navattabbam aaramma.na.m? At the first stage of insight nama and rupa are experienced through the mind-door, and their different characteristics are realized. Thus, these objects are also not so classifiable? They are not concepts. Many difficult areas. Nina. 36421 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 100 and Tiika. op 15-09-2004 01:38 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > In what kind of citta process does registration with roots occur? N: I am going back to kusala kamma that produces vipaaka also in the course of life: Thus, the answer is: it depends on the kamma that produces it. However, the accompanying feeling mostly conforms to the feeling accompanying the javana cittas in the case of pleasant feeling or indifferent feeling. A very detailed area. When the sense-door process runs its full course, tadaaramma.na-cittas arise. Then also in the succeeding mind-door process tadaaramma.na-cittas arise. See also Vis. XVII, 130. A sense object that is ruupa cannot last longer than seventeen moments of citta. Before it comes into range (when the sense-door adverting-citta adverts to it, the first citta of a sense-door process) one moment may have past and then it runs for sixteen more moments, thus, it runs its full course. Or, when more than one moment has passed before it comes into range, then it falls away sooner. Depending on the duration of the process we have in the sense-door process an object that is very great (mahanta), great, slight, very slight. In the mind-door process we have: clear and unclear (see T.A. p. 120) L: Also, it seems like the object of bhavanga, etc., would have to be a concept; > correct? N: Not necessarily so. The objects are of six kinds. They are the same object as experienced by the last javana cittas of the previous life and these were conditioned by the kamma that produced the following rebirth-consciousness. These objects can be past, present and not so classifiable (navattabba.m arammana.m), see Vis. XVII, 160, footnote. The object can be a sense object, a sign of kamma, a sign of destiny. The rebirth-consciousness takes that same object but it is doorfreed, it does not experience it through a doorway. If that object would be visible object, that visible object is a past rupa, but a past rupa is not a concept. We discussed in Bgk that not so classifiable objects are among them. I do not know all details. It is a difficult area for me. Nina. 36422 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi Howard, see my response to Larry and to Dan. Just now I got the point. Another aspect of looking at it. op 12-09-2004 18:08 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> >> Sujin's response to my "dark" was [paraphrase]: "[Laughing] That's >> right. Complete darkness. No seeing at all." >> >> Dan >> H: ========================== > Dark is the absence of light. Silence is the absence of sound. We can > experience darkness, can we not? .... N: The conversation was really subtle. At first hand I did not get the meanihng either, but due to circumstances I only looked again today at these posts. This delay was favorable to me. Nina. 36423 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Dear AL, Do not become disheartened. You are doing fine, I notice your questions. I know by the way people ask. I have a feeling that soon you will not need anymore medicaments and this regime. See below. op 14-09-2004 20:27 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: Quotes Rob K: > When we think it is 'me" who is trying to understand it may seem >> easy or hard, helpful or unhelpul. But when we know it is only >> conditioned phenomena arising (no me anywhere) the study is purely >> a reminder of what is real now. N: Al, Rob's words can also be applied to your situation. Thus: It is not me trying to understand or having difficulties. When we know it is only conditioned phenomena arising (no me anywhere) all my efforts to understand are purely a reminder of what is real now. Just little by little, and it sure will be better later on. This is for all of us: we can only take in this or this amount of knowledge and understanding grows drop by drop. It is accumulated, this means: whatever you learn is never lost, but the citta that takes it, and falls away conditions the succeeding one. In this way it is passed on from moment to moment, you do not have to interfere with the cittas. We, all of us, have moments that we would like to have more understanding, or stages of insight, but then there is clinging, counteractive! Is taking in one sentence at a time not enough? Azita's good wishes are for all of us: patience, courage and good cheer. We should not forget the patience. Best wishes, Nina. 36424 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Dear Dan, op 12-09-2004 17:31 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > I know that when she asked that, my initial, rationalistic repsonse > was just as you say: "Light and dark cannot be experienced through > touch!" But in the experience of hardness, there is a complete > absense of seeing, no light whatsoever, complete darkness. > > Sujin's response to my "dark" was [paraphrase]: "[Laughing] That's > right. Complete darkness. No seeing at all." N: After Larry's remark to me it is clearer now. See my response: the world is dark when there is no seeing but there is something else like touching or hearing. In our ignorance we do not realize this. Nina. 36425 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Larry, op 15-09-2004 01:33 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > N: "We cannot imagine what it means to be without eye-consciousness." > > L: One qualm, hearing a sound is being without eye-consciousness. N: Thank you, Larry. That is a good reminder. It can cure us from some idea that eye-consciousness stays while hearing, but it is gone. A. Sujin said: the world is dark at all such moments when there is no seeing, but it just seems to be light all the time. It is only light when there is seeing. L: I,m sure blindness comes in a variety of manifestations both with and > without eye-consciousness. N: Yes, there are degrees. Nina. 36426 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 10:00am Subject: The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no 12 The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no 12 Sutta: When, indeed, bhikkhus, evil unskillful thoughts due to reflection on an adventitious object are eliminated, when they disappear, and the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated just within (his subject of meditation), through his reflection on an object connected with skill, through his pondering on the disadvantages of unskillful thoughts, his endeavoring to be without attentiveness and reflection as regards those thoughts or through his restraining, subduing, and beating down of the evil mind by the good mind with clenched teeth and tongue pressing on the palate, that bhikkhu is called a master of the paths along which thoughts travel. **** The Co gives a simile of a teacher who teaches a Prince who had come from a territory that was far away. He taught him the arts by way of five kinds of weapons and how he should use these. He told the Prince that he should return in order to rule over his royal property. If robbers would appear while he was on his way he should use bow and arrow and travel on. If these would break or get lost he should use a spear, if that should break or get lost he should use a sword, and so on. [N:Using five kinds of weapons]. The Prince did as was told him and after his return he ruled over the royal property. It is the same in the case of the bhikkhu. The Buddha told him to be diligent with regard to the higher consciousness (adhicitta) in order to attain arahtship. N: The citta with the eight attainments in jhaana that is based on vipassana is the higher consciousness, adhicitta. Thus this refers to a bhikkhu who has developed samatha and vipassanaa. Then a short summary is given of the preceding exhortations in five sections. I: The Co explains that the Buddha told the monk to attend to another object (nimitta) if he has unwholesome thoughts. N: In the case of attachment he should attend to foulness, in the case of dosa to metta or to the elements, in case of moha he should study Dhamma, listen, and inquire as to cause and effect. But all this should be done with vipassanaa, not without it. Co: And if he has abandoned those unwholesome thoughts he can develop vipassanaa further and attain arahatship. II: If this does not help, he should realize their danger. N: As was said before, he should realize their danger by the strength of paññaa. He could ring a bell and ask for advice from wise members of the Sangha. Good friendship is stressed. Co: III: If this does not help, he should not pay attention to these thoughts. N: He should with kusala citta pay attention to other objects, such as reviewing the requisites, thinking of the Buddha¹s excellent qualities, performing his daily tasks and manual labour with mindfulness and right understanding. Co: IV: If this does not help he should destroy the roots of those thoughts. N: He should realize the conditions of those thoughts. He should directly understand conditions. V: Co: If this did not help he should suppress them. N: As we have seen, it is said that he should subdue akusala citta with kusala citta. The clenched teeth we read about are as it were a bodily expression to the supreme effort and determination necessary for the attainment of arahatship, just as the Bodhisatta applied supreme effort to attain Buddhahood. This effort should be accompanied by strong paññaa. These five ways are like the five weapons the teacher gave to his pupil. If one weapon was broken or lost he could use the other kind of weapon depending on the occasion that presented itself. The Co adds: When he has developed vipassanaa he shall attain arahatship. As we see, the development of vipassanaa is stressed all the time, no matter in what way one abandons unwholesome thoughts. ***** Nina. 36427 From: Andrew Levin Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 0:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear AL, > Do not become disheartened. You are doing fine, I notice your questions. I > know by the way people ask. I have a feeling that soon you will not need > anymore medicaments and this regime. > See below. Nina not to disrespect, but I don't think you're correct. My strong desire to learn the Buddha's teachings isn't present in other areas of my life, like my health and general well-being, and I still lack the ability to think critically and put together an *understanding* of the material I need. I have read some chapters from Abhidharma in Daily Life and I feel that now maybe I could identify a few wrong views that are present but I look at the copies of Vism, Majjhima Nikaya that I have and I really can't do anything with them. Even Dhammapada and a commentary I have called the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. My salvation may come from one practise guide I have, if I can manage to carry it out. Otherwise, I don't see any understanding of the dhamma coming any time soon. Remember when the Buddha said that he, through his own knowledge, saw that King Yama, at the gates of hell, thought "Indeed, those who do evil actions in the world have many tortures inflicted on them. Oh, that a Tathagata might arise in the world, and that I might wait on him, and I would come to understand that Blessed One's dhamma." Well the Tathagata has arisen in the world, I have just yet to understand his dharma. As it is, frankly, my mind-stream will be sinking down into the lower realms if nothing changes. Its the truth. 36428 From: m. nease Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 0:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Hi Sarah, Apologies for the delay: ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 1:47 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) > > My problem with this in the past has simply been the meaning of the word > > 'result'. Reading in English I haven't always taken it to mean > > 'vipaaka', > > so future natural decisive support condition could've been 'a result'. > > So > > my question is, when we read ""a wholesome or unwholesome kamma which, > > although unable to produce a result by itself,", was the original Paali > > here > > 'vipaaka'? > ..... > S: I don't have the Pali, but from the context of the previous paragraph, > I think 'result' clearly refers to vipaka and kamma produced rupas. The > previous para reads: > > "Therein, a wholesome or unwholesome volition that produces resultant > [consciousness] (vipaka) and kamma-born materiality both at relinking and > during activity is called a 'generating' kamma." Right--I should probably assume 'vipaaka' is meant when I read the translation 'result'. > Then it continues with the para about 'supporing' kamma which I gave. > > (See also BB's notes on p200 f in CMA, though of course the commentary > itself is always the most precise as in the comments Dan and KenH were > discussing). > > I'm pretty sure from the text that 'future natural decisive support > condition' is not included in 'result' here. Agreed, thanks for the clarification. mike 36429 From: Andrew Levin Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Nina, I'd just like to personally thank you for the works you've contributed to the community and to your personal presence here and correspondence with me. You are doing yourself and the rest of us a great service. I'm off. peace, AL 36430 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:26pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Larry, Thanks for your post. It has led me to consider more. ==================== H: "There is no discovery of reality in this at all." L: I agree that understanding reality isn't just 5-door consciousness and wrong view is certainly and obviously the product of desire and even right view when not directly 'seen' is more often than not held with desire and desire is the root of suffering. The question is, why does one want to discover reality? To gain pleasure seems doomed to failure. The only other reason I can think of is to escape suffering. Maybe a scientist can figure out a way to eliminate blindness and all physical ailments all together. Do you think that will end suffering? Will a knowledge of cones and rods eliminate desire for visible object? I'm not saying we should reject science. Mostly I was trying to hook you into reading the Visuddhimagga. Happy trails, ==================== Before I start reading I just gotta know, was the Visuddhimagga written before or after the predicted end of the dispensation :-) ? I agree with your points about the ending of suffering. Which led me to consider the following: For the Buddha it was no longer necessary to investigate the particular conditionality of each particular phenomenon. It was enough to know simply this; that all phenomena are conditioned, and that they are all anicca, anatta and dukkha. He could have penetrated the precise conditionality of any particular process he would have turned his attention to, but, as you allude to, it is simply not relevant to the ending of suffering to do this. And this is what he taught. As well as, and more importantly so, the way to the unphenomenal. And so I agree with you that science, in its quest to spell out ever more precisely the particular conditions that apply to specifics, does not contribute to an end of desire or suffering, because it doesn't ever get to the bottom and find some unconditionality. Which conclusion has a bit of a sting in the tail, because I am led to the same conclusion about the elaborations of post-sutta Buddhism, which also delve deeper and deeper into specifics. The Buddha simply had no interest in the phenomenal world. (He said that he did not recommend becoming even for as long as a finger snap, or thereabouts ) Thanks again and Kind Regards Herman 36431 From: Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi, Herman (and Larry) - In a message dated 9/15/04 6:25:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > And so I agree with you that science, in its quest to spell out ever > more precisely the particular conditions that apply to specifics, does > not contribute to an end of desire or suffering, because it doesn't ever > get to the bottom and find some unconditionality. > > Which conclusion has a bit of a sting in the tail, because I am led to > the same conclusion about the elaborations of post-sutta Buddhism, which > also delve deeper and deeper into specifics. The Buddha simply had no > interest in the phenomenal world. (He said that he did not recommend > becoming even for as long as a finger snap, or thereabouts ) > =========================== I'm largely in agreement with you, Herman. Delving deeper and deeper into specifics is to little avail, at least not at the level of irrelevant characteristics, and not at the mere intellectual level. But we *must* look at phenomena, looking with the intention of discovering their fundamental nature of emptiness: being merely impermanent, undependable, impersonal, dependent and coreless wisps, in order to let go of them all and to see through them, acquiring the "view from nibbana" - the indescribable suchness of reality. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36432 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:05pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi Andrew, I feel for you, bro. ============== As it is, frankly, my mind-stream will be sinking down into the lower realms if nothing changes. Its the truth. ============== I accept that you know your own state of mind better than anyone else. And I accept that you are unable to think clearly or how you would like to. I am still encouraged that you know these things about yourself. This is insight, and there is no reason to think that all of a sudden you will be left insightless into your condition. You are experiencing much and great unpleasantness. The unpleasantness is real enough. But there is no necessity to accept any particular kind of meaning over any other meaning of whatever it is you experience. There was a time in my life when I saw snakes just about anywhere I cared to look. Not cute little friendly snakes, but poisonous, dangerous, aggressive snakes. I knew they weren't real, but it was still driving me to despair. One day I realized these snakes didn't have to mean what I took them to mean. I decided to joke around with them. Every time I saw snakes, I imagined them wearing funny hats. Ridiculous, but true. You'd be surprised how many different funny hats a person can concoct in their imagination. And snakes wearing funny hats loose their venom, somehow. It probably took three months before I stopped hallucinating altogether. I'm not making light of your situation, Andrew, but if you're going to be spending some time with animals or ghosts, you might as well have a bit of fun while you're there. I mean that seriously!! If the books aren't helping, or are making things worse, put them to one side. You have insight, Andrew, your writing is full of it. And you can trust that. All the best Herman 36433 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:25pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Howard, ========== But we *must* look at phenomena, looking with the intention of discovering their fundamental nature of emptiness: being merely impermanent, undependable, impersonal, dependent and coreless wisps, in order to let go of them all and to see through them, acquiring the "view from nibbana" - the indescribable suchness of reality. ========== Yes, yes, yes!!! Kind Regards Herman 36434 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hi Andrew I'll join the chorus of folks concerned for your well being. This might be sacrilegious (sp?) but I personally feel modern medicine has better insight into and is better equipped to deal with harsh forms (rather than the subtle forms we all have) of mental illness than the Buddha was/is, so I trust you will be sticking with your meds. I can relate to your relationship with books - I'm sure we all can. I also have a copy of Vism that makes me feel slightly panicky every time I come across it lying more or less unread, and with the parts that have been read long gone from my brain. That goes for all my books, including Abhidhamma in Daily Life, which I've read through twice and have retained almost nothing, and Rob M's book which I read only in the last couple of weeks, and with keen attention, since I was making comments - but now it's gone. So if it's any reassurance, judging from the discussions you have been in and the questions you have asked and the comments you have made your understanding has arisen a lot faster than mine. And you're a lot younger. You have cause for patience. I don't know the details of your medical condition, and forgive me for taking the liberty of guessing, but I assume you're bi-polar and are aware of an oncoming crash after a manic period. Thus the desire to read a lot and study a lot and understand a lot to stave off the oncoming period of depression. If that's the case - and it probably isn't 'cause I'm just guessing - none of us know what you're dealing with and our words won't help much. But our metta goes out to you - I'm sure you can feel that. (Well, it's not "our" metta, but you know what I mean.) But we have a long way to go and many lifetimes. Let's press ahead gently with "patience, good cheer and courage" - I think that's what Azita says. See? I can't even remember that! As for Dhamma study, I'd like to encourage you again to consider reading Nina's book on the Perfections. I see Robert was also encouraging you in that direction. Actually, my printed out copy is so covered with various coloured highlighter markers that it is blinding to read. (Some paragraphs are covered with a combination of purple, pink, lime green and orange from my four readings of the book! ) I have been thinking I'd like to have a condensed version, so with the permission of this group I will start posting passages as I'm doing with "Deeds of Merit." (I'll take a break with that one in the meanwhile.) I think it is Nina's greatest book, because it teaches Abhidhamma in the context of daily life even more than ADL does, and the Perfections (paramis) really get at an inspiring model of how good people can be, how we can keep our mind-streams from sinking into the lower realm, as you put it, by developing the Buddha's perfections. Take care, Andrew. We'll be rooting for you. Metta, Phil 36435 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perversions Dear Nina and Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, [cut] > Another point for India, as I understand, all the mind-door processes of > citta that succeed a sense-door process have a not so classifiable object? > Thus, past rupa is not a concept, but it is not so classifiable, navattabbam > aaramma.na.m? > At the first stage of insight nama and rupa are experienced through the > mind-door, and their different characteristics are realized. Thus, these > objects are also not so classifiable? They are not concepts. > Many difficult areas. > Nina. T.A.Sujin described this event - the taking up of the object by the mind door, after the sense door - as two pieces of thin paper, one on top of the other; if a drop of water touched the first sheet then it would [almost] instantly reach the second sheet. Maybe you have heard this before, but when I heard it, that not- so-classifiable-object concept became a little clearer for me. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 36436 From: Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Howard, You wrote, "...suchness of reality." "Suchness" is tathata. I wonder if sabhava is a synonym of tathata, also found in tathagata, "thus gone one". Larry 36437 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner11-Introduction(h) Hi Herman H : With regards to all the cittas below (including the snipped ones), how are they known, or experienced? -atita-bhavanga (past bhavanga) -bhavanga calana (vibrating bhavanga) -bhavangupaccheda (arrest bhavanga, the last bhavanga arising before the object is experienced through the sense door) Ph: Well, first shut all the windows, and sit very, very still on a cushion, and while tuning into your breath, place your fingertips gently on your temples... Seriously, for what it's worth, here's my take on bhavangas. We can't and will not know or experience them in this lifetime. (I notice that in Abhidhamma in Daily Life, a chapter is entitled "The ahetuka cittas which are unknown in daily life." I don't think bhavangas are ahetuka, but perhaps the same "unkown in daily life" could apply.) When I say "we", I mean we ignorant worldlings. Thankfully, in his great compassion the Buddha decided to share the understanding and insight he gained, and taught us about the bhavangas and other cittas unknown in daily life. (I know you have doubts about the veracity of Abhidhamma as word of the Buddha, but tough taters, as they say ;) ) How do we benefit from knowing about the bhavangas? Along with all the other unknowable cittas that arise during, and in the case of bhavangas between, sense-door and mind-door processes, they point at the lack of a self behind things. Understanding them intellectually helps give rise to an intellectual understanding of anatta. And from there, who knows how deep in to direct understanding of realities we will go in this lifetime and in the lifetimes to come? This is my take. I hope others will step in if they think bhavangas are indeed to be known and experienced by worldlings. Metta, Phil 36438 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hello again, Andrew. Phil: > I have been thinking I'd like to have a > condensed version, so with the permission > of this group I will start posting passages as I'm doing with "Deeds of > Merit." (I'll take a break with that one in the meanwhile.) > I think it is Nina's greatest book, because it teaches Abhidhamma in the > context of daily life even more than ADL does, and the Perfections (paramis) > really get at an inspiring model of how good people can be, how we can keep > our mind-streams from sinking into the lower > realm, as you put it, by developing the Buddha's perfections. > Take care, Andrew. We'll be rooting for you. Come to think of it, I would like to press ahead with the Deeds of0Merit postings, so instead of posting passages I'll just give you the link again, along with Robert's encouragement. Of course, I recommend this book to everyone, not just Andrew. >> Robert: yes, very good. It has to take time to let understanding grow. I think if you can find the right things to read they will be the food that nourishes wisdom. I kept a copy of this book with me constantly for almost year and would read it even for a few minutes any chance I got: http://www.abhidhamma.org/perfections%20of%20enlightenment.htm Metta, Phil 36439 From: Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 4:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 100 and Tiika. Hi Nina, Thanks for your answers regarding registration with roots and the object of bhavanga. I didn't completely understand the answers but maybe it will become clearer as we go along. Also, concerning no eye consciousness and dark, I think I disagree with everyone. It seems to me dark is an object of eye consciousness, essentially black or shades of grey, while no eye consciousness isn't anything visible at all. Basically not a visual experience. I'm tempted to say the nibbana of eye consciousness, but I won't. Also, I think silence is something we hear. So it's different from no ear consciousness. But I might flip-flop on that one. Larry 36440 From: Catalin Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:56pm Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism Hello, I have a few questions about Buddhism to which I haven't found an satisfactory answer yet. The questions are not related to each other and are nor sorted by importance: 1) Why do we,nirvana,Buddha,souls,karma,everything,etc. exist (according to Buddhism)?What is the purpose of life and this world? 2) If nothing really is, then why keep living and not suicide? We can't really kill ourselves if we really don't exist...Why trying to escape something that doesn't actually exist? 3)Why are there miracles in all the worlds religion, some witnessed by many, even in religions with totally opposed dogmas? 4)Why do some Buddhist build huge Buddha statues when Buddha was just a man and didn't demand worshiping? And also why they worship gods not related to Buddhism (from popular mythology) when Buddha said we don't need Gods? 5)Why do some people from some schools pray for help from the Buddha? Isn't Buddha in nirvana away from our words? 6)I found this quote: "The 4th Buddhist council (c. 100 AD) - . Theravada Buddhism does not recognize the authenticity of this council, and it is sometimes called the “council of HERETICAL monks”." -isn't Buddhism an tolerant religion? And what about calling some of the Buddhist ways a LESSER vehicle, or nichiren attitude towards other branches of Buddhism? etc.. 7)How can different ENLIGHTENED persons have different opinions about what the truth is and what is the best path to get there? If someone really becomes enlightened shouldn't he be able to see which one of the schools of Buddhism is the right one and guide people there? And how can enlightened people see the world in different ways when they should know the same truth? 8)In Mahayana people take vows not to obtain nirvana and help other first...how can someone help someone else attain something that he doesn't have and he doesn't actually experienced for himself that the path he teaches is the good path? This reminds me about "If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." Isn't a better way to first attain nirvana like Buddha did and AFTER that help others? 9) What is the difference between "attaining nirvana", "attaining buddhahood","becoming an arahat" and "attaining enlightment"? 10)If a person (like Buddha) attains nirvana then we does he keep having desires like eating, breathing, desiring to teach and help others, etc.? Shouldn't he just disappear or die when he reaches nirvana? And how can someone reach nirvana without the DESIRE and CRAVING to reach nirvana and the DESIRE and CRAVING to escape DESIRE and CRAVING? 11)If when someone dies memories(soul/Atman) also die, then how come Buddha and others can remember past lives? 12)How can a Lama know the future and predict where he will be reborn? Knowing future=no free will... 13)Doesn't Karma eliminate free will? For example if X hurts Z then X is forced to hurt Z because Z mistakes from his past lives so the negative karma from Z is transfered to X? And what if X is just evil and Z is good and was also good in his past lives , why is he suffering from another cause different than karma? And if karma decides everything, and every effect has a cause and causes cannot be created by human beings, isn't that a believe in a unchangeable destiny and the elimination of free will? 14)Rebirth and karma-where are the proves they exist? They don't seem more real than the gods of ancient Greece or Santa Clauses... It is is true that every effect has a cause but there is no prove of the existence of good and bad outside a particular moral system (and moral systems can be different, and are in constant changing), so that means if in you society is bad to be gay then the gay karma is bad and if the society changes and being gay (for example) is good then also karma is positive? Who decides what is good and what is bad and how much good and bad karma should be assigned to a particular deed? Like I said, karma and rebirth look like pure mythology. 15)How can we trust personal experiences through meditation and other Buddhist practices? An schizophrenic or someone who takes LSD or someone who stayed too much in the sun may meet Santa Claus, then that means that Santa Claus exists? And some branches of Tibetan Buddhism even use some weird and questionable methods to attain "truth"... 16)Why are sects like pure land Buddhism and nichiren Buddhism (especially SGI) (and even left hand tantra vajrayana Buddhism) considered as being "Buddhist"? Jainism and some Hindu sects are MUCH closer to Buddhism than them! 17)Is Buddhism part of the Hindu religion as some Hindus say who also see Buddha a reincarnations of their God? 18)Can I be a Buddhist without a Buddhist community existing in my city and country and belonging only in "Internet shanghas" and having only web sites and groups like this one as teachers? 19) If someones believes in the Buddhist philosophy and way of life but rejects Buddhist mythology (karma,rebirth,gods,etc.) is he a Buddhist?For example I see Buddhism paths as a way to reprogram the brain and lie it to become happy and stop fearing dead (reaching nirvana), am I a Buddhist(yes,I am a programmer and an engineer :) )? And I see karma as a moral law: if you hurt someone then that someone may hurt you but for example if someone kills someone and no one knows or someones donates huge sums of money without anyone knowing then that person isn't affected in any good or bad way by any paranormal Karma force (maybe only his conscience is affected depending of his view of the world). 20)Where can I find all the pali canon for download (in English) and also the main writings of the other main Buddhism schools (Zen, Tibetan,Tendai,Pure Land, etc.)?And also a guide with the names of these writings (for example "The pali Canon contains the sutras named X,Y,...")and what they contain and what is their importance in different schools(for example" the pali canon contains sutra X which is important for the Z school but unimportant for the A schools"). I found some collections of e-books but I don't know which belongs to pali canons and which to other schools and which is more important and which is less important to study. 21)Where are the best places on the Internet to place questions like these? I hope you will forgive my bad English and don't find any of my questions offensive. If this is not the right place to put these questions then I am sorry. Catalin PS: I chose to post to these 5 groups because from all the Buddhist groups from Yahoo they seem most active. I again apologize if I broke any rule but I don't know where else could I ask these questions. 36441 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:49pm Subject: RE: [dsg] 21 questions about Buddhism Hi Catalin, Thanks for sending this again. Come to think of it, it was probably to another list. Anyways, it made me reread your questions again, and I saw something I skimmed over before. I don't have any answers to your questions, but you might be interested in my take on one of your points. You wrote: ================= And I see karma as a moral law: if you hurt someone then that someone may hurt you but for example if someone kills someone and no one knows or someones donates huge sums of money without anyone knowing then that person isn't affected in any good or bad way by any paranormal Karma force (maybe only his conscience is affected depending of his view of the world). ================= I see karma in the following way. With whatever intention you act in the world from time to time, so you will perceive the world to act towards you from time to time. If you act with greedy, hateful, lustful or whatever motivation than this will come back to you. Only it will seem that others are behaving like this towards you. Similarly, if you are filled with love, compassion, joy or equanimity, then this is how you will see the intentions of others towards you. As I said, not an answer to your questions, but hoping it is helpful. Kind Regards Herman 36442 From: Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/15/04 8:11:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > You wrote, "...suchness of reality." > > "Suchness" is tathata. I wonder if sabhava is a synonym of tathata, also > found in tathagata, "thus gone one". > > Larry > ======================== I kind of doubt it. In early Theravada I think sabhava (harmlessly) meant "characteristic". In some other early schools, and possibly in later developments within Theravada it came to take on its literal meaning of "own-being", which suggests essence, core, and independent existence, and which probably led to the Path of Discrimination and also Mahayana criticizing the term. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36443 From: Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 3:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 100 and Tiika. Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/15/04 8:57:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Nina, > > Thanks for your answers regarding registration with roots and the object > of bhavanga. I didn't completely understand the answers but maybe it > will become clearer as we go along. > > Also, concerning no eye consciousness and dark, I think I disagree with > everyone. It seems to me dark is an object of eye consciousness, > essentially black or shades of grey, while no eye consciousness isn't > anything visible at all. Basically not a visual experience. I'm tempted > to say the nibbana of eye consciousness, but I won't. > > Also, I think silence is something we hear. So it's different from no > ear consciousness. But I might flip-flop on that one. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: The mind door gets to "draw upon" all the other senses in a way. We "hear" silence through the mind door, and we "see" darkness throught the mind door. All absences are known through the mind door, I believe, but they differ in that one may be a sound absence, another a sight absence, etc. ----------------------------------------------- > > Larry > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36444 From: Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi again, Sarah - In a message dated 9/15/04 7:11:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > -------------------------------------------------- > As Rob suggested, it> > >doesn’t mean all women are like these descriptions, but who are we to > >question the knowledge of the Buddha, the great arahants and so on who > >could recall all their past lives and really understood the meaning of > >inherent tendencies and latent defilements which are so much more > >deep-rooted than any ideas we may have learnt about feminism or political > >correctness in this lifetime? > > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > My questioning is what material constitutes the Buddha word, and I > question it out of respect for the Buddha. And, yes, I will question. If I > didn't > question, I would be a fool. Saddha to me is confidence and trust, but not > blind faith. > ------------------------------------------------- > ============================= I'd just like to clarify a couple points about the foregoing. One is that my questioning is not a questioning of the Buddha's knowledge, which I have great confidence in, but rather is a questioning of what passed on material really represents the Buddha word. The other point is that I was talking only about myself when I said "If I didn't question, I would be a fool." I have no doubt that you have a mind that is very much open to the possibility of things not being the way they appear and to the possibility of "authorities" being in error with regard to specific facts. Some of us may be more likely to question certain matters, and others more likely to question other matters. I want you to know that in saying that I would be a fool if I did not question, I was not in the slightest casting any aspersions on you. (I want to rule that out as a possible interpretation! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36445 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Dear Dan, Yes, you are completely right. What was in my mind: a blind person without any eyesight. But that was not the point in your conversation with Kh Sujin. As I said to Larry, it is such a good reminder, all those dark moments. Excellent. Thank you, double reminders today. And now it is to be realized! But we cannot try. It depends on whether there are enough accumulations for the arising of sati sampajañña. Kh Sujin reminds us not to confuse thinking and awareness, and to be very sincere, truthful, not deluding ourselves. Nina. op 15-09-2004 14:31 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > When you say, "We cannot imagine what it means to be without eye- > consciousness," I beg to differ. There are many, many moments of > hearing, thinking, tasting, etc. that are without eye-consciousness. > Aside from word games about whether darkness is really the color > black or whether it is "light dispells darkness" or "darkness > dispells light", the experience of being without eye-consciousness is > very common. In those moments there is no eye-consciousness, no light > detected, complete darkness. 36446 From: Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 8:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 100 and Tiika. Hi Howard, H: "The mind door gets to "draw upon" all the other senses in a way. We "hear" silence through the mind door, and we "see" darkness through the mind door. All absences are known through the mind door, I believe, but they differ in that one may be a sound absence, another a sight absence, etc." L: I agree that absences are known through the mind door; so no eye consciousness is known through the mind door. We could reason that dark is the absence of light, but don't you experience the dark? When it is suddenly quiet, don't you experience silence? That suggests to me that dark and silence can be objects of sense consciousness. We might further ask if the 'knowing' of no eye consciousness is in any way similar to the experience of nibbana in a path moment. I would say there could well be some similarity if for no other reason than that this knowing of an absence sounds similar to the immaterial jhanas and I suspect these jhanas are a near stepping-stone to nibbana. Larry 36447 From: robmoult Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:04pm Subject: Re: 21 questions about Buddhism Hi Catlin, Welcome! Some good questions... Some of my replies may be too brief for you. Feel free to ask for clarification / expansion. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Catalin wrote: > 1) Why do we,nirvana,Buddha,souls,karma,everything,etc. exist (according > to Buddhism)?What is the purpose of life and this world? ===== Buddhism does not articulate a specific purpose for existence. Buddhism describes a set of natural laws that guide our existence. For example, if we do good things, there will be good results - this is the law of kamma. This world exists because conditions support it's existence, not because there is some ultimate purpose behind it. As an analogy, if I hold up a ball and then drop it, the ball will fall. Why will it fall? It will fall because there were conditions (I let go of it) and natural laws (law of gravity); there is no "purpose" in the ball falling. The teachings of the Buddha do have a purpose. The Buddha explained that the purpose of His teachings are help us lead a good life and attain Nibbana. ===== > 2) If nothing really is, then why keep living and not suicide? We can't > really kill ourselves if we really don't exist...Why trying to escape > something that doesn't actually exist? ===== Rebirth is an important part of Buddhism. The nature of our next life will depend on our kamma and our last thought in this life. If we commit suicide, we are doing a bad thing (killing is bad) and our last thought is likely to be confused, filled with anger or last minute craving for continued existence. All this points to an unfortunate rebirth. Suicice doesn't help us, it hurts us. The Buddha explained that a human rebirth is a fortunate and rare experience and we should make the most of it. Buddhists do not belive in a "soul" or any form of permanent self. "Self" is a concept that we apply to a constantly changing set of mental and physical phenomenon. ===== > 3)Why are there miracles in all the worlds religion, some witnessed by > many, even in religions with totally opposed dogmas? ===== Miracles are things that people cannot explain using their understanding of the world. If a pilot were to fly an airplane over a group of people who were still living a stone-age existence, the cavemen would call what they saw "a miracle". In spite of our advanced science, mankind has very little understanding of the mind and the mind is the forerunner of all things. Good actions start with a good mind, bad actions start with a bad mind. ===== > 4)Why do some Buddhist build huge Buddha statues when Buddha was just a > man and didn't demand worshiping? And also why they worship gods not > related to Buddhism (from popular mythology) when Buddha said we don't > need Gods? ===== Statues were added to Buddhism by the Greeks a few hundred years after the Buddha (I prefer to call them images, because a statue is a representation when you know what the subject looked like). Many Buddhist schools also include images of Bodisattas (Buddhas-to-be). When we bow down in front of the images, we are not worshiping the images, we are calling to mind the qualities of the Buddha or Bodhisatta. ===== > 5)Why do some people from some schools pray for help from the Buddha? > Isn't Buddha in nirvana away from our words? ===== You are correct that the Buddha cannot help us. The power is in our own minds. Reflecting on the qualities of the Buddha can increase our confidence in the Buddha's teaching. With confidence comes calmness and an improved ability to deal with the problems facing us. Here is an analogy. A tablespoon of salt placed in a glass of water will ruin the taste of the water. A tablespoon of salt placed in a lake will have no impact on the taste. In both cases, the amount of problems (i.e. salt) is the same, but the impact depends on the size of the container (i.e. expansiveness of the mind). Salt happens :-) The openess of the mind is what determines the impact of the problems. ===== > 6)I found this quote: "The 4th Buddhist council (c. 100 AD) - . > Theravada Buddhism does not recognize the authenticity of this council, > and it is sometimes called the "council of HERETICAL monks"." - isn't > Buddhism an tolerant religion? And what about calling some of the > Buddhist ways a LESSER vehicle, or nichiren attitude towards other > branches of Buddhism? etc.. ===== There are three main schools of Buddhism; Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana. Theravada focus on the oldest Buddhist texts. Mahayana expand their focus to include many later writings by others. Vajrayana is the Tibetan tradtion (Dali Lama). Mahayana split from the Theravada quite early (about 100 years after the Buddha) over issue of fine-tuning the rules for monks (Theravada monks said "NO", Mahayana monks said "YES"). After that, the Mahayana monks held their own councils. The term, "HERETICAL" may sound strong, but in reality there has never been any bad blood between the various schools of Buddhism. There has never been any conflicts in the name of Buddhism. When travelling, a Theravada monk would be welcome to stay at a Mahayana monastery. I know very little about Nichiren, but from what little I know, it seems not to have much in common with Buddhism (Theravada, Mahayana or Vajrayana). They may call themselves "Buddhists" but I do not know on what basis they do so. ===== > 7)How can different ENLIGHTENED persons have different opinions about > what the truth is and what is the best path to get there? If someone > really becomes enlightened shouldn't he be able to see which one of the > schools of Buddhism is the right one and guide people there? And how can > enlightened people see the world in different ways when they should know > the same truth? ===== At a high-level, all enlighened persons will agree that the noble eightfold path leads to enlightenment (Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana agree on this). However, the best way to follow the path will depend on one's accumulations. Some focus on faith. Some focus on rites and rituals. Some focus on wisdom. ===== > 8)In Mahayana people take vows not to obtain nirvana and help other > first...how can someone help someone else attain something that he > doesn't have and he doesn't actually experienced for himself that the > path he teaches is the good path? This reminds me about "If a blind man > leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." Isn't a better way to > first attain nirvana like Buddha did and AFTER that help others? ===== According to a commentary, at the time of the Dipankara Buddha, Sumedha the Hermit realized that if he were to become a monk that he would become an Arahant in that life. Sumedha the Hermit also realized that his spiritual faculties (faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom) were very strong. Out of compassion for mankind, Sumedha the Hermit decided not to become an Arahant but rather he decided to develop the ten perfections (paramis) so that he could be reborn as a Buddha and spread the Dhamma in a future life. Sumedha the Hermit committed himself to countless rebirths and suffering and he eventually became our Buddha. I teach an Abhidhamma class on Sunday mornings at our local temple. I point my students to what is in the texts (Suttas, Abhidhamma and Vinaya) as the source of wisdom. Though I am not enlightened (far from it), I am helping my students improve their spiritual life. ===== > 9) What is the difference between "attaining nirvana", "attaining > buddhahood","becoming an arahat" and "attaining enlightment"? ===== Nibbana is an object of a state of mind; it is something that one experiences. When conditions support the mind to take Nibbana as object, then one has reached the first stage of sainthood (called a Sotapanna). The fourth (and final) stage of sainthood is called an "Arahant". Arahants have uprooted the deep-rooted desire for continued existence (they also do not aspire to non-existence). When an Arahant passes away , they are not reborn. ===== > 10)If a person (like Buddha) attains nirvana then we does he keep having > desires like eating, breathing, desiring to teach and help others, etc.? > Shouldn't he just disappear or die when he reaches nirvana? And how can > someone reach nirvana without the DESIRE and CRAVING to reach nirvana > and the DESIRE and CRAVING to escape DESIRE and CRAVING? ===== The mental states of a Buddha (or an Arahant) do not create new kamma; they are "functional". Their past kamma still plays out and continues their life, but when the kamma supporting their life expires, they pass away without rebirth. It may seem like a paradox, but the desire to obtain is a hindrance to obtaining. One should view one's practice as one's duty (i.e. the right thing to do). Then, when condtions are appropriate, it will be natural for results to arise. ===== > 11)If when someone dies memories(soul/Atman) also die, then how come > Buddha and others can remember past lives? ===== Buddism does not accept the concept of a soul / atman. When one dies, the physical body falls away but the mind continues with another body. ===== > 12)How can a Lama know the future and predict where he will be reborn? > Knowing future=no free will... ===== One who understands the workings of kamma will understand the conditions which support rebirth. However, the Buddha cautioned that trying to understand the detailed workings of kamma can lead to insanity. Theravada accepts that at close to the time of death, one may catch a glimpse of where one's kamma is taking one. ===== > 13)Doesn't Karma eliminate free will? ===== Kamma is only one of the conditions which determine what happens to us. The decisions that are made are a result of habits or accumulations. There is no "free-will"; a free-will would imply something above the mind, directing the mind. The flow of the mind depends on accumulations. As it flows, accumulations are created or reinforced. Just because there is no free will, this does not imply that the future is pre-determined. If we are unable to know what will happen (because we cannot possibly know all the conditions that might arise or the influence they might have), how can we say that the future is pre-determined? The future arises naturally, without the need for free will, but the label "pre-determined" does not fit. ===== > For example if X hurts Z then X is forced to hurt Z because Z mistakes > from his past lives so the negative karma from Z is transfered to X? > And what if X is just evil and Z is good and was also good in his past > lives , why is he suffering from another cause different than karma? > And if karma decides everything, and every effect has a cause and causes > cannot be created by human beings, isn't that a believe in a > unchangeable destiny and the elimination of free will? ===== When X hurts Z, there are conditions (such as a habit of anger in X) which supported that action. The action of hurting Z will result in more accumulations for X and will create bad kamma for X. There is no issue of "X being forced to hurt Z"; who or what is doing the forcing? After being hurt, Z's reaction will depend on Z's accumulations. Z could react with anger (thereby creating bad kamma for Z). Z could react with attachment if Z is a masochist (thereby creating bad kamma for Z). If Z sees things as they truly are, then being hurt can be a condition for a wholesome state to arise. ===== > 14)Rebirth and karma-where are the proves they exist? They don't seem > more real than the gods of ancient Greece or Santa Clauses... > It is is true that every effect has a cause but there is no prove of the > existence of good and bad outside a particular moral system (and moral > systems can be different, and are in constant changing), so that means > if in you society is bad to be gay then the gay karma is bad and if the > society changes and being gay (for example) is good then also karma is > positive? Who decides what is good and what is bad and how much good and > bad karma should be assigned to a particular deed? Like I said, karma > and rebirth look like pure mythology. ===== You are correct that there is no scientific proof that rebirth and kamma exists. I accept rebirth because I see this as the most natural explanation for things such as inborn talents, tendencies and love at first sight :-) I accept kamma because I conceptually understand that the reason that I am now tying this message can be traced back to countless earlier decisions made (i.e. decision to turn on the computer, decision to read your message, etc.). When I extrapolate from this conceptual understanding, I get the law of kamma. The Buddha taught that there is a moral system that transcends cultures. Specifically: attachment, aversion and delusion are bad while non-attachment, non-aversion and wisdom are good. Again, my personal experience allows me to accept this. ===== > 15)How can we trust personal experiences through meditation and other > Buddhist practices? An schizophrenic or someone who takes LSD or someone > who stayed too much in the sun may meet Santa Claus, then that means > that Santa Claus exists? And some branches of Tibetan Buddhism even use > some weird and questionable methods to attain "truth"... ===== It is important to have a qualified teacher when meditating to help avoid some of the pitfalls. ===== > 16)Why are sects like pure land Buddhism and nichiren Buddhism > (especially SGI) (and even left hand tantra vajrayana Buddhism) > considered as being "Buddhist"? Jainism and some Hindu sects are MUCH > closer to Buddhism than them! ===== Labels are not very important. If a practices leads to attachment, aversion or delusion, then it is bad (even if somebody has decided to call it Buddhism). When somebody practices charity, it does not matter if they call themselves "Christian", "Muslim", "Hindu" or "Buddhist"; they have done a good thing. ===== > 17)Is Buddhism part of the Hindu religion as some Hindus say who also > see Buddha a reincarnations of their God? ===== Many Hindus believe that the Buddha was a reincarnation of one of their Gods (I think it is Vishnu, though I could be wrong). Hinduism adopted this position to absorb Buddhism under their umbrella. A fundamental difference between Buddhism and Hinduism is that Hindus accept the existence of a soul (Atman) while Buddhist refute this. ===== > 18)Can I be a Buddhist without a Buddhist community existing in my city > and country and belonging only in "Internet shanghas" and having only > web sites and groups like this one as teachers? ===== Labels are not important. It doesn't matter what you call yourself. If you go out and practice charity, if you smile at people in the street, if you avoid killing, if you avoid stealing, if you avoid lying, if you avoid sexual misconduct, etc. then you will create good kamma. Certainly one can learn more about the Buddha's teaching using the Internet ("Access to Insight" is an excellent web-site). Many people find that looking at an image of a Buddha helps them to remind themselves of the Buddha's teaching. If that would help you, then get an image (or draw one yourself) and put it up on your wall as a reminder. When the Buddha passed away, He made it clear that he left no successor other than his teachings. I suggest that you read the teachings of the Buddha. ===== > 19) If someones believes in the Buddhist philosophy and way of life but > rejects Buddhist mythology (karma,rebirth,gods,etc.) is he a > Buddhist?For example I see Buddhism paths as a way to reprogram the > brain and lie it to become happy and stop fearing dead (reaching > nirvana), am I a Buddhist(yes,I am a programmer and an engineer :) )? > And I see karma as a moral law: if you hurt someone then that someone > may hurt you but for example if someone kills someone and no one knows > or someones donates huge sums of money without anyone knowing then that > person isn't affected in any good or bad way by any paranormal Karma > force (maybe only his conscience is affected depending of his view of > the world). ===== There is no "initiation" into "becoming a Buddhist". There is nothing corresponding to a baptism in the Christian church. Call yourself what you will. Make an effort to study the teachings of the Buddha. Do not close your mind to what you call "mythology"; you may find yourself coming to accept some of it after some time of reflection. ===== > 20)Where can I find all the pali canon for download (in English) and > also the main writings of the other main Buddhism schools (Zen, > Tibetan,Tendai,Pure Land, etc.)?And also a guide with the names of these > writings (for example "The pali Canon contains the sutras named > X,Y,...")and what they contain and what is their importance in different > schools(for example" the pali canon contains sutra X which is important > for the Z school but unimportant for the A schools"). I found some > collections of e-books but I don't know which belongs to pali canons and > which to other schools and which is more important and which is less > important to study. ===== For Theravada, I would go to "Access to Insight". I know of no good comparative site. ===== > 21)Where are the best places on the Internet to place questions like these? ===== This is the best place on the Internet :-) ===== > > I hope you will forgive my bad English and don't find any of my > questions offensive. If this is not the right place to put these > questions then I am sorry. > > Catalin > > PS: I chose to post to these 5 groups because from all the Buddhist > groups from Yahoo they seem most active. I again apologize if I broke > any rule but I don't know where else could I ask these questions. ===== Metta, Rob M :-) 36448 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner12-Introduction(i) Hello all As Herman said, thanks Sarah for feeding material for this. I'm itching all over in anticipation of getting into the universals. This is craving, clinging to books and idea, I know - but clinging to a wholesome activity (mental development) is better than clinging to baseball statistics like I was doing this time last year. (But the playoffs are coming soon.) I would like to put two passages side by side: First, Nina, from the introduction to "Cetasikas" posted by Sarah. > The study of cetasikas will help us to have more understanding of > the intricate operations of the mind, of citta and cetasikas. It will help > us to understand in theory that citta and cetasikas act according to their > own conditions, and that an abiding agent who could direct mental > activities is not to be found. The study of the realities as taught by the > Buddha can remind us to investigate them when they appear in our daily > life. Theoretical understanding of the truth is a foundation for the > development of direct under-standing of realities as they present > themselves one at a time through the six doors, through the senses and the > mind. and now Howard, from a recent post: >But we *must* look at phenomena, looking with the intention of >discovering their fundamental nature of emptiness: being merely >impermanent, undependable, impersonal, dependent and coreless wisps, in >order to let go of them all and to see through them, acquiring the "view >from nibbana" - the indescribable suchness of reality. Both wonderful descriptions (except for "whisps" maybe!) of what we are up to when we have right effort. Personally speaking, I would find it impossible to do the latter at this point on the path. I find Abhidhamma and the study of things like cetasikas gives me an intellectual foothold, an explicit path to follow that I need at this point. If I were to start *looking* into emptiness at this point, I don't know if there would be any degree of right understanding. But I know this is not the case for Howard, and it is energizing to read the words he wrote, just as it energizing in a more - in my case- confidence-boosting way to read Nina's words. The danger is that I could become attached to terminology, cling to the delicious intellectual aspect of Abhidhamma and not *look* (or listen, taste, smell, touch and be aware of mind objects) enough. Fortunately I will always have good Dhamma friends in this group to remind me to be look at what is happening at the moment. I think I should soon choose a sign off line, something from K Sujin about what is here now! Just passing this on in appreciation for this wonderful online sangha. Very grateful for it having coming along into my life. Metta, Phil 36449 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 0:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: CSC 4-[Sarah: "citta is..."] Hi Sarah, Thanks for answering this question from Dan: ------------------- D: > Is there a way to read it as saying that the > agent/instrument/activity are really three ways > to "experience 'citta'" rather than describe it? ... S: No. When there is an understanding of the characteristic of citta, there isn't any question or issue of different ways as I see it. -------------------- I can understand that, but I didn't realise dhammas could be known only by their characteristics. Just to clarify: Are their functions, manifestations and proximate causes never directly experienced? Metta, Ken H 36450 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Howard, It’s kind of you to clarify, but please know that I never take anything you say amiss -- even when it’s a sensitive topic or you make your points known clearly, it’s never a personal issue. We’re just discussing the Dhamma. Just a couple of comments below: --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Howard: > > My questioning is what material constitutes the Buddha word, and I question it out of respect for the Buddha. And, yes, I will question. If I didn't question, I would be a fool. Saddha to me is confidence and trust, but not blind faith.<< ------------------------------------------------- .... S: I agree and I think such questioning is very important for us all. Certainly my approach (Nina's, Jon's and everyone else's I know) is also one of questioning, considering, checking and so on. As you say, blind faith is useless and we haven't all given up other religions, philosophies, understandings in order to take on a new set blindly. ... H: > I'd just like to clarify a couple points about the foregoing. > One is that my questioning is not a questioning of the Buddha's > knowledge, which I have great confidence in, but rather is a questioning > of what passed on material really represents the Buddha word. ... S: Understood. Of course the Jataka verses and stories date back to early days and they can be seen in some of the earliest cave paintings we’ve visited in India. I don’t believe there is any evidence of corruption, but I appreciate yours and others’ misgivings. In my own experience, sometimes the aspects of the Teachings I find most difficult to accept initially are the very same I learn most from, but that’s just my experience. ... H:> The other point is that I was talking only about myself when I > said "If I didn't question, I would be a fool." <...> > Some of us may be more likely to question certain > matters, and others more likely to question other matters. I want you to know that in saying that I would be a fool if I did not question, I was not in the slightest casting any aspersions on you. (I want to rule >that out as a possible interpretation! :-)< ... S: What you say is true (which aspects we question and so on) and I didn’t for an instant read your message as indirectly insinuating anything about my foolish nature, which wouldn’t be your way at all, I know, (even though it would be quite true;-). As we’re talking about fools and harsh language, however, another dilemma in Qus of King Milinda may also be relevant to our discussion (again without casting any aspersions on you or anyone else here :-). I’ll quote it this time as I think it should only be a page in length: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/index.htm **** [THE FOOLISH FELLOW.] 15. [170] 'Venerable Nâgasena, it was said by the Elder Sâriputta, the commander of the faith: "The Tathâgata, brethren, is perfect in courtesy of speech. There is no fault of speech in the Tathâgata concerning which he should have to take care that no one else should know it ." And on the other hand the Tathâgata, when promulgating the first Pârâgika on the occasion of the offence of Sudinna the Kalanda , addressed him with harsh words, calling him a useless fellow . And that Elder, on being so called, terrified with the fear of his teacher , and overcome with remorse, was unable to comprehend the Excellent Way . Now if the first statement be correct, the allegation that the Tathâgata called Sudinna the Kalanda a useless fellow must be false. But if that be true, then the first statement must be false. [171] This too is a double-pointed problem now put to you, and you have to solve it.' 16. 'What Sâriputta the Elder said is true, O king. And the Blessed One called Sudinna a useless fellow on that occasion. But that was not out of rudeness of disposition , it was merely pointing out the real nature (of his conduct) in a way that would do him no harm . And what herein is meant by "pointing out the real nature." If any man, O king, in this birth does not attain to the perception of the Four Truths, then is his manhood (his being born as a man) in vain , but if he acts differently he will become different. Therefore is it that he is called a useless fellow . And so the Blessed One addressed Sudinna the Kalanda with words of truth, and not with words apart from the facts.' 17. 'But, Nâgasena, though a man in abusing another speaks the truth, still we should inflict a small fine upon him. For he is guilty of an offence, inasmuch as he, although for something real, abused him by the use of words that might lead to a breach (of the peace) .' 'Have you ever heard, O king, of a people bowing down before, or rising up from their seats in respect for, or showing honour to, or bringing the complimentary presents (usually given to officials) to a criminal?' 'No, if a man have committed a crime of whatever sort or kind, if he be really worthy of reproof and punishment, they would rather behead him, or torture him , or bind him with bonds, or put him to death, or deprive him of his goods .' 'Did then the Blessed One, O king, act with justice or not?' 'With justice, Sir, and in a most fit and proper way. And when, Nâgasena, they hear of it the world of men and gods will be made tender of conscience, and afraid of falling into sin, struck with awe at the sight of it, and still more so when they themselves associate with wrong-doers, or do wrong.' 18. [172] 'Now would a physician, O king, administer pleasant things as a medicine in a case where all the humours of the body were affected, and the whole frame was disorganised and full of disease?' 'No. Wishing to put an end to the disease he would give sharp and scarifying drugs.' 'In the same way, O king, the Tathâgata bestows admonition for the sake of suppressing all the diseases of sin. And the words of the Tathâgata, even when stern, soften men and make them tender. Just as hot water, O king, softens and makes tender anything capable of being softened, so are the words of the Tathâgata, even when stern, yet as full of benefit, and as full of pity as the words of a father would be to his children. Just, O king, as the drinking of evil-smelling decoctions, the swallowing of nasty drugs, destroys the weaknesses of men's bodies, so are the words of the Tathâgata even when stern, bringers of advantage and laden with pity. And just, O king, as a ball of cotton falling on a man raises no bruise, so do the words of the Tathâgata, even when stern, do no harm.' 'Well have you made this problem clear by many a simile, Very good, Nâgasena! That is so, and I accept it as you say.' [End of the dilemma as to the Buddha's harsh words to Sudinna.] ***** S: Howard, I know you’ll say that comments about being a fool are not in the same category at all as the quotes given from the Jataka tale, but I hope you find it interesting in any case and also a reminder to us when we find any other Dhamma truths sounding ‘harsh’ which may be ‘merely pointing out the real nature...’. Thank you again for your kind follow up notes and consideration. Metta, Sarah ====== 36451 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 0:56am Subject: Re: Theory and Practice _Sukin & Htoo Dear Htoo, Htoo: > Thank you very much for your full response. Your message makes me > untired. It made me untired. After these three sentences you will see > that I used 'makes' in the second sentence. Sukin: I admire your patience, a good example for me. Thank you. :-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Dear Sukin, I was not assessing that monk. I was just > retrospectively making comments. He passed away long time ago. And I > was not as learned as I have been now. I just mentioned this because > those who seem to attain higher nana Sukin: I realize that, and I don't think that you are the kind of person who will want to do it. ----------------------------------------- Htoo: > The monk in my story did not mention anything like declaration or > announcement. What I had heard was that he did not lie flat on his > back in his final years ( more than 13 years not lying on bed ). He > did that but not as a ritual. Sukin: I wonder what the significance of this is?! What are your own thoughts? > ------------------------------------------------------ Htoo: > I remember that the Venerable preached that, 'When you are on board > like a ship or boat or ferry, you have to note 'moving..moving, > sitting..sitting'. He preached that for lay people. > > Whenever a person reaches a state they would suggest others to > practise. Later on they move to higher level and this urge changes a bit. Sukin: I will come back to this later in the post. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > Do you think it is possible that the conditions are such that some > person will remain calm and peaceful for a long time, but the kilesas > are in fact still quite intact? And when they expound the dhamma, it > comes from sanna more than from panna? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Here I have to express in two different forms. One is my own response > that comes from my wisdom. The second is from my learned knowledge. > > 1. I do not think it is possible that the conditions are such that > some person will remain calm and so and so. I do not think they > expound the dhamma coming from their sanna. > 2. Pure jhana without development of any vipassana nana can calm down > kilesa as long as jhana overwhelms. They will be calm and peaceful > for a long time. But kilesa are still there as anusaya. Here > exposition of the dhamma may well be sanna or may be partly from > panna. > > I stick to 1 while 2 is still possible. Sukin: I had the following in mind. 1. The story in the Tipitaka about the mistress and the maid. To me, the conditions around her were such that she had no cause to feel any anger or irritation until her maid decided one day, to test her. 2. A certain monk may have the accumulations to follow the Vinaya strictly, but not necessarily with any understanding. Furthermore, the environment (temple) may be in tune with his accumulations. 3. Someone may study the Dhamma as he would any worldly subject. In which case he may be able to remember and recall concepts within the Teachings quite appropriately to the situation. But this does not necessarily involve any deep understanding of any one of those concepts. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > You will notice that I wrote in different styles. Some say that I am > writing impossible practice. I do not think so. > > As soon as we wake up in the bed and as soon as consciousness > orientates that we are still alive and come to know the world again > after a long rest of sleep, mahasatipatthana can be started. > > This can go through out the day till we are back again in the bed > just before going into sleep again. > > For me, I am not boasting, I sometimes do practise even when I am > speaking to someone for some time. That is knowing of my thinking, my > intension, my word searching, my lip movement and so on. Here I just > include 'my' for communication otherwise Sarah may smile. Sukin: I do believe that you are not boasting, I think that you are very sincere. But allow me to express my view about the development of sati and panna. Firstly, there is no control as to what concepts will be the object of citta at the moment. There is no control as to what experience through which doorway will condition a reminder about the significance of developing sati and panna. Depending on the conditions, but mostly on accumulations, one will have right or wrong thoughts if not a moment of satipatthana. One's `thinking' or perception of body and verbal and bodily intimation can become the object of the present moment, however if sati and panna has been well developed, satipatthana can arise there and then. But there is no guarantee that this would happen. Also I believe it possible that when sati and panna has been much developed, the tendency to mental proliferation has been so reduced, that increasingly `concepts' such as the above may replace thoughts on kama and philosophical speculations. But I am not sure of this. If so, however, then I think this is more a `consequence' of developed wisdom than a recommended practice to adopt. And this I think may be where you are, I hope! ;-) ------------------------------------------------------ Htoo: > Yes. Mahasatipatthana should be our part of life and it should be in > daily life. > > But we should not abandon the formal practice. When I write this, I > am thinking that you may disagree. Sukin: Yes, I do disagree. As I said above, I don't think there can be any control as to what will be the object of citta and whether there will be right or wrong view with regard to it. Actually, I have reservation with regard to any `idealistic' attitude about developing Mahasatipatthana even in daily life. I feel this way because it can condition the idea of `self' and `control'. In a day if there is no satipatthana at all, it is good to know this, better than then following some practice and risk having a false idea of achievement and progress. --------------------------------- Htoo: > Once I saw Sujin's writing regarding this. I noticed that Sujin was > clear to express. But pupils took differently. Nina is straight > forward. But cerain pupil is not. Sukin: Can you elaborate? I haven't come to my present position taking K. Sujin or Nina as authority. I do reason, but there is also what I believe to be a degree of experience. But I may be deluded, so please continue with this discussion with me; I may come to adopt your viewpoint ;-). -------------------------------------- Htoo: > I would say mahasatipatthana should be in our daily life. On the > other hand, formal practice should be practised. > > The Buddha stayed in phalasamapatti. Great arahats stayed in > phalasamapatti. Many arahats stayed in phalasamapatti. Some arahats > sometimes stayed in nirodha sapamatti. Sukin: But is this the same as "formal practice"? ------------------------------------------- Htoo: > If someone is aversive to formal practice, I would feel pity for him > or her. Sukin: It is actually none of my business. But I do admit feeling some aversion sometime. But not with regard to doing it myself, I just don't believe in the concept, but towards those who encourage it, especially who choose to disregard pariyatti. ------------------------------------------------ Htoo: > But clinging to formal practice without full understanding of > implication may sound like rituals as Sujin said. Sukin: This is obvious, but I think any idea of `doing' which disregards in principle, that there is a dhamma arising "NOW" to be known, is silabattaparamasa. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It is time to go and pick up my son from school. So please excuse my leaving out the rest of you post. And please keep going with this discussion. :-) Metta, Sukin. 36452 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:04am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner13-Introduction(j) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Introduction [contd] ***** Right understanding of nama and rupa is developed by being mindful of them when they appear. Sati, mindfulness or awareness, is a wholesome cetasika which is non-forgetful, aware, of the reality which appears at the present moment. At the very moment of sati the reality which appears can be investigated, and in this way right understanding will gradually develop. Eventually nama and rupa will be seen as they are: as impermanent and non-self. We should not forget that also awareness, sati, is a cetasika arising because of its own conditions. If we have understood this we shall not force its arising or try to direct it to particular objects, such as this or that cetasika. The study of the Abhidhamma can prevent wrong ideas about the development of the Buddha's path. The realities of our life, including out defilements, should be understood as not self. So long as we take defilements for self or "mine" they cannot be eradicated. The direct understanding of realities as non-self is the condition for not doing evil, for cultivating the good and for purifying one's mind. ***** [Introduction to be continued] Metta, Sarah ====== 36453 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: 21 questions about Buddhism Hi Catalin, Ooops... so sorry for misspelling your name :-) Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Catlin, > > Welcome! Some good questions... Some of my replies may be too brief > for you. Feel free to ask for clarification / expansion. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Catalin wrote: > > 1) Why do we,nirvana,Buddha,souls,karma,everything,etc. exist > (according > > to Buddhism)?What is the purpose of life and this world? > > ===== > > Buddhism does not articulate a specific purpose for existence. > Buddhism describes a set of natural laws that guide our existence. > For example, if we do good things, there will be good results - this > is the law of kamma. > > This world exists because conditions support it's existence, not > because there is some ultimate purpose behind it. As an analogy, if > I hold up a ball and then drop it, the ball will fall. Why will it > fall? It will fall because there were conditions (I let go of it) > and natural laws (law of gravity); there is no "purpose" in the ball > falling. > > The teachings of the Buddha do have a purpose. The Buddha explained > that the purpose of His teachings are help us lead a good life and > attain Nibbana. > > ===== > > > 2) If nothing really is, then why keep living and not suicide? We > can't > > really kill ourselves if we really don't exist...Why trying to > escape > > something that doesn't actually exist? > > ===== > > Rebirth is an important part of Buddhism. The nature of our next > life will depend on our kamma and our last thought in this life. If > we commit suicide, we are doing a bad thing (killing is bad) and our > last thought is likely to be confused, filled with anger or last > minute craving for continued existence. All this points to an > unfortunate rebirth. Suicice doesn't help us, it hurts us. The > Buddha explained that a human rebirth is a fortunate and rare > experience and we should make the most of it. > > Buddhists do not belive in a "soul" or any form of permanent > self. "Self" is a concept that we apply to a constantly changing set > of mental and physical phenomenon. > > ===== > > > 3)Why are there miracles in all the worlds religion, some > witnessed by > > many, even in religions with totally opposed dogmas? > > ===== > > Miracles are things that people cannot explain using their > understanding of the world. If a pilot were to fly an airplane over > a group of people who were still living a stone-age existence, the > cavemen would call what they saw "a miracle". In spite of our > advanced science, mankind has very little understanding of the mind > and the mind is the forerunner of all things. Good actions start > with a good mind, bad actions start with a bad mind. > > ===== > > > 4)Why do some Buddhist build huge Buddha statues when Buddha was > just a > > man and didn't demand worshiping? And also why they worship gods > not > > related to Buddhism (from popular mythology) when Buddha said we > don't > > need Gods? > > ===== > > Statues were added to Buddhism by the Greeks a few hundred years > after the Buddha (I prefer to call them images, because a statue is > a representation when you know what the subject looked like). Many > Buddhist schools also include images of Bodisattas (Buddhas-to- be). > When we bow down in front of the images, we are not worshiping the > images, we are calling to mind the qualities of the Buddha or > Bodhisatta. > > ===== > > > 5)Why do some people from some schools pray for help from the > Buddha? > > Isn't Buddha in nirvana away from our words? > > ===== > > You are correct that the Buddha cannot help us. The power is in our > own minds. Reflecting on the qualities of the Buddha can increase > our confidence in the Buddha's teaching. With confidence comes > calmness and an improved ability to deal with the problems facing us. > > Here is an analogy. A tablespoon of salt placed in a glass of water > will ruin the taste of the water. A tablespoon of salt placed in a > lake will have no impact on the taste. In both cases, the amount of > problems (i.e. salt) is the same, but the impact depends on the size > of the container (i.e. expansiveness of the mind). Salt happens :- ) > The openess of the mind is what determines the impact of the > problems. > > ===== > > > 6)I found this quote: "The 4th Buddhist council (c. 100 AD) - . > > Theravada Buddhism does not recognize the authenticity of this > council, > > and it is sometimes called the "council of HERETICAL monks"." - > isn't > > Buddhism an tolerant religion? And what about calling some of the > > Buddhist ways a LESSER vehicle, or nichiren attitude towards other > > branches of Buddhism? etc.. > > ===== > > There are three main schools of Buddhism; Theravada, Mahayana and > Vajrayana. Theravada focus on the oldest Buddhist texts. Mahayana > expand their focus to include many later writings by others. > Vajrayana is the Tibetan tradtion (Dali Lama). Mahayana split from > the Theravada quite early (about 100 years after the Buddha) over > issue of fine-tuning the rules for monks (Theravada monks said "NO", > Mahayana monks said "YES"). After that, the Mahayana monks held > their own councils. The term, "HERETICAL" may sound strong, but in > reality there has never been any bad blood between the various > schools of Buddhism. There has never been any conflicts in the name > of Buddhism. When travelling, a Theravada monk would be welcome to > stay at a Mahayana monastery. > > I know very little about Nichiren, but from what little I know, it > seems not to have much in common with Buddhism (Theravada, Mahayana > or Vajrayana). They may call themselves "Buddhists" but I do not > know on what basis they do so. > > ===== > > > 7)How can different ENLIGHTENED persons have different opinions > about > > what the truth is and what is the best path to get there? If > someone > > really becomes enlightened shouldn't he be able to see which one > of the > > schools of Buddhism is the right one and guide people there? And > how can > > enlightened people see the world in different ways when they > should know > > the same truth? > > ===== > > At a high-level, all enlighened persons will agree that the noble > eightfold path leads to enlightenment (Theravada, Mahayana and > Vajrayana agree on this). However, the best way to follow the path > will depend on one's accumulations. Some focus on faith. Some focus > on rites and rituals. Some focus on wisdom. > > ===== > > > 8)In Mahayana people take vows not to obtain nirvana and help > other > > first...how can someone help someone else attain something that he > > doesn't have and he doesn't actually experienced for himself that > the > > path he teaches is the good path? This reminds me about "If a > blind man > > leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." Isn't a better way > to > > first attain nirvana like Buddha did and AFTER that help others? > > ===== > > According to a commentary, at the time of the Dipankara Buddha, > Sumedha the Hermit realized that if he were to become a monk that he > would become an Arahant in that life. Sumedha the Hermit also > realized that his spiritual faculties (faith, energy, mindfulness, > concentration and wisdom) were very strong. Out of compassion for > mankind, Sumedha the Hermit decided not to become an Arahant but > rather he decided to develop the ten perfections (paramis) so that > he could be reborn as a Buddha and spread the Dhamma in a future > life. Sumedha the Hermit committed himself to countless rebirths and > suffering and he eventually became our Buddha. > > I teach an Abhidhamma class on Sunday mornings at our local temple. > I point my students to what is in the texts (Suttas, Abhidhamma and > Vinaya) as the source of wisdom. Though I am not enlightened (far > from it), I am helping my students improve their spiritual life. > > ===== > > > 9) What is the difference between "attaining nirvana", "attaining > > buddhahood","becoming an arahat" and "attaining enlightment"? > > ===== > > Nibbana is an object of a state of mind; it is something that one > experiences. When conditions support the mind to take Nibbana as > object, then one has reached the first stage of sainthood (called a > Sotapanna). The fourth (and final) stage of sainthood is called > an "Arahant". Arahants have uprooted the deep-rooted desire for > continued existence (they also do not aspire to non-existence). When > an Arahant passes away , they are not reborn. > > ===== > > > 10)If a person (like Buddha) attains nirvana then we does he keep > having > > desires like eating, breathing, desiring to teach and help others, > etc.? > > Shouldn't he just disappear or die when he reaches nirvana? And > how can > > someone reach nirvana without the DESIRE and CRAVING to reach > nirvana > > and the DESIRE and CRAVING to escape DESIRE and CRAVING? > > ===== > > The mental states of a Buddha (or an Arahant) do not create new > kamma; they are "functional". Their past kamma still plays out and > continues their life, but when the kamma supporting their life > expires, they pass away without rebirth. It may seem like a paradox, > but the desire to obtain is a hindrance to obtaining. One should > view one's practice as one's duty (i.e. the right thing to do). > Then, when condtions are appropriate, it will be natural for results > to arise. > > ===== > > > 11)If when someone dies memories(soul/Atman) also die, then how > come > > Buddha and others can remember past lives? > > ===== > > Buddism does not accept the concept of a soul / atman. When one > dies, the physical body falls away but the mind continues with > another body. > > ===== > > > 12)How can a Lama know the future and predict where he will be > reborn? > > Knowing future=no free will... > > ===== > > One who understands the workings of kamma will understand the > conditions which support rebirth. However, the Buddha cautioned that > trying to understand the detailed workings of kamma can lead to > insanity. Theravada accepts that at close to the time of death, one > may catch a glimpse of where one's kamma is taking one. > > ===== > > > 13)Doesn't Karma eliminate free will? > > ===== > > Kamma is only one of the conditions which determine what happens to > us. The decisions that are made are a result of habits or > accumulations. There is no "free-will"; a free-will would imply > something above the mind, directing the mind. The flow of the mind > depends on accumulations. As it flows, accumulations are created or > reinforced. Just because there is no free will, this does not imply > that the future is pre-determined. If we are unable to know what > will happen (because we cannot possibly know all the conditions that > might arise or the influence they might have), how can we say that > the future is pre-determined? The future arises naturally, without > the need for free will, but the label "pre-determined" does not fit. > > ===== > > > For example if X hurts Z then X is forced to hurt Z because Z > mistakes > > from his past lives so the negative karma from Z is transfered to > X? > > And what if X is just evil and Z is good and was also good in his > past > > lives , why is he suffering from another cause different than > karma? > > And if karma decides everything, and every effect has a cause and > causes > > cannot be created by human beings, isn't that a believe in a > > unchangeable destiny and the elimination of free will? > > ===== > > When X hurts Z, there are conditions (such as a habit of anger in X) > which supported that action. The action of hurting Z will result in > more accumulations for X and will create bad kamma for X. > > There is no issue of "X being forced to hurt Z"; who or what is > doing the forcing? After being hurt, Z's reaction will depend on Z's > accumulations. Z could react with anger (thereby creating bad kamma > for Z). Z could react with attachment if Z is a masochist (thereby > creating bad kamma for Z). If Z sees things as they truly are, then > being hurt can be a condition for a wholesome state to arise. > > ===== > > > 14)Rebirth and karma-where are the proves they exist? They don't > seem > > more real than the gods of ancient Greece or Santa Clauses... > > It is is true that every effect has a cause but there is no prove > of the > > existence of good and bad outside a particular moral system (and > moral > > systems can be different, and are in constant changing), so that > means > > if in you society is bad to be gay then the gay karma is bad and > if the > > society changes and being gay (for example) is good then also > karma is > > positive? Who decides what is good and what is bad and how much > good and > > bad karma should be assigned to a particular deed? Like I said, > karma > > and rebirth look like pure mythology. > > ===== > > You are correct that there is no scientific proof that rebirth and > kamma exists. > > I accept rebirth because I see this as the most natural explanation > for things such as inborn talents, tendencies and love at first > sight :-) > > I accept kamma because I conceptually understand that the reason > that I am now tying this message can be traced back to countless > earlier decisions made (i.e. decision to turn on the computer, > decision to read your message, etc.). When I extrapolate from this > conceptual understanding, I get the law of kamma. > > The Buddha taught that there is a moral system that transcends > cultures. Specifically: attachment, aversion and delusion are bad > while non-attachment, non-aversion and wisdom are good. Again, my > personal experience allows me to accept this. > > ===== > > > 15)How can we trust personal experiences through meditation and > other > > Buddhist practices? An schizophrenic or someone who takes LSD or > someone > > who stayed too much in the sun may meet Santa Claus, then that > means > > that Santa Claus exists? And some branches of Tibetan Buddhism > even use > > some weird and questionable methods to attain "truth"... > > ===== > > It is important to have a qualified teacher when meditating to help > avoid some of the pitfalls. > > ===== > > > 16)Why are sects like pure land Buddhism and nichiren Buddhism > > (especially SGI) (and even left hand tantra vajrayana Buddhism) > > considered as being "Buddhist"? Jainism and some Hindu sects are > MUCH > > closer to Buddhism than them! > > ===== > > Labels are not very important. If a practices leads to attachment, > aversion or delusion, then it is bad (even if somebody has decided > to call it Buddhism). When somebody practices charity, it does not > matter if they call themselves "Christian", "Muslim", "Hindu" > or "Buddhist"; they have done a good thing. > > ===== > > > 17)Is Buddhism part of the Hindu religion as some Hindus say who > also > > see Buddha a reincarnations of their God? > > ===== > > Many Hindus believe that the Buddha was a reincarnation of one of > their Gods (I think it is Vishnu, though I could be wrong). Hinduism > adopted this position to absorb Buddhism under their umbrella. A > fundamental difference between Buddhism and Hinduism is that Hindus > accept the existence of a soul (Atman) while Buddhist refute this. > > ===== > > > 18)Can I be a Buddhist without a Buddhist community existing in my > city > > and country and belonging only in "Internet shanghas" and having > only > > web sites and groups like this one as teachers? > > ===== > > Labels are not important. It doesn't matter what you call yourself. > If you go out and practice charity, if you smile at people in the > street, if you avoid killing, if you avoid stealing, if you avoid > lying, if you avoid sexual misconduct, etc. then you will create > good kamma. Certainly one can learn more about the Buddha's teaching > using the Internet ("Access to Insight" is an excellent web-site). > Many people find that looking at an image of a Buddha helps them to > remind themselves of the Buddha's teaching. If that would help you, > then get an image (or draw one yourself) and put it up on your wall > as a reminder. > > When the Buddha passed away, He made it clear that he left no > successor other than his teachings. I suggest that you read the > teachings of the Buddha. > > ===== > > > 19) If someones believes in the Buddhist philosophy and way of > life but > > rejects Buddhist mythology (karma,rebirth,gods,etc.) is he a > > Buddhist?For example I see Buddhism paths as a way to reprogram > the > > brain and lie it to become happy and stop fearing dead (reaching > > nirvana), am I a Buddhist(yes,I am a programmer and an > engineer :) )? > > And I see karma as a moral law: if you hurt someone then that > someone > > may hurt you but for example if someone kills someone and no one > knows > > or someones donates huge sums of money without anyone knowing then > that > > person isn't affected in any good or bad way by any paranormal > Karma > > force (maybe only his conscience is affected depending of his view > of > > the world). > > ===== > > There is no "initiation" into "becoming a Buddhist". There is > nothing corresponding to a baptism in the Christian church. Call > yourself what you will. Make an effort to study the teachings of the > Buddha. Do not close your mind to what you call "mythology"; you may > find yourself coming to accept some of it after some time of > reflection. > > ===== > > > 20)Where can I find all the pali canon for download (in English) > and > > also the main writings of the other main Buddhism schools (Zen, > > Tibetan,Tendai,Pure Land, etc.)?And also a guide with the names of > these > > writings (for example "The pali Canon contains the sutras named > > X,Y,...")and what they contain and what is their importance in > different > > schools(for example" the pali canon contains sutra X which is > important > > for the Z school but unimportant for the A schools"). I found some > > collections of e-books but I don't know which belongs to pali > canons and > > which to other schools and which is more important and which is > less > > important to study. > > ===== > > For Theravada, I would go to "Access to Insight". I know of no good > comparative site. > > ===== > > > 21)Where are the best places on the Internet to place questions > like these? > > ===== > > This is the best place on the Internet :-) > > ===== > > > > > I hope you will forgive my bad English and don't find any of my > > questions offensive. If this is not the right place to put these > > questions then I am sorry. > > > > Catalin > > > > PS: I chose to post to these 5 groups because from all the > Buddhist > > groups from Yahoo they seem most active. I again apologize if I > broke > > any rule but I don't know where else could I ask these questions. > > ===== > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 36454 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner13-Introduction(j) Hello all >We should not forget that also awareness, sati, is a cetasika >arising because of its own conditions. If we have understood this we shall >not force its arising or try to direct it to particular objects, such as >this or that cetasika. Also, that there is no kusala citta without sati. When I first read about "beautiful" cetasikas, my natural tendency was to think "I want to learn how to have a lot of those! I do believe I'm a beautiful cetasika kinda guy!" But it doesn't work that way for us worldlings. The point is to be aware of whatever cetasikas arise, whatever defilements there are. Understanding the conditioned, rare nature of sati will help us to patiently develop our mind. There is no fast route to sati in this lifetime. If I hadn't come across DSG I would have still been trying to force my mind to stick on objects (ie breath) in the mistaken belief that it was sati. It wasn't - it was just self trying (unsuccessfully) to impose martial law of the mind. Not to say that this is the case for other people who meditate and seek jhanas. Of course it can be done in a right way, conditions permitting. In my case the conditions weren't there yet, and I'm grateful to have realized that without wasting a few years or longer of this rare opportunity to study Dhamma. Metta, Phil 36455 From: dighanakha Date: Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:05pm Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? TueÊSepÊ14,Ê2004Ê 8:11 am, Sarah Abbott wrote: Hello Sarah. Thanks for posting the valiant defence of Kunala Cuckoo's wild generalizations. Though as you might have expected, there is rather little in it that I can agree with. Nothing remarkable in this, as it's not often that I agree with anybody about anything. Dig >> In the Commentary to the Jataka Ananda the Vulture Dig >> King says: Dig >> "It's not a case of love or hate with womenfolk you see, Dig >> It is for gold they hug a man, as parasites a tree." Dig >> - from the Kunala Jataka Dig >> Is this true? S > Certainly it says this (and the other quotes you gave). S > The Buddha understood human nature and the extent of the S > kilesa (defilements) far better than us. Even in the Kunala S > Jataka verses themselves we read some pretty strong S > language. For a start: S > ".....the Master said, "Surely, Brethren, even when I was in S > an animal form, I knew well the ingratitude, the wiles, the S > wickedness and immorality of women-folk, and at that time so S > far from being in their power I kept them under my control," S > and when by these words he had removed the spiritual S > discontent of these Brethren, the Master held his peace." S > So is this true? Are you asking if it's true that the monks were cured of their spiritual discontent? Since I don't believe that the Buddha taught this Jataka, clearly my answer would be no. For me the whole thing is a work of fiction. Or are you asking if it's true that the Buddha had special insight into the character of women, as claimed above? My belief is that he did. And I would expect anything that he said about women based upon this knowledge to be the truth. But in the Kunala Jataka there is a flood of wild generalizations about women that can easily be checked and shown to be false by observation of the lives and behaviour of actual women. Therefore, if it is true that the Buddha spoke only the truth, and true that he had special insight into women, then the Kunala Jataka cannot be his teaching. On the other hand, if we are going to base our reasoning on the dsg fundamentalist assumption that the Kunala Jataka WAS spoken by the Buddha (because its Mahavihara translator said so), then we shall have to conclude either that the Buddha did not always speak the truth, or that he did not have even the most rudimentary everyday understanding of women, let alone special insight into them. But both of these possibilities are contradicted in the Nikayas. Women's nature would have been known to the Buddha through the sixth of the ten powers of a Tathagata. And being an arahant, he would have spoken only what is factual. And so my verdict is that the Buddha is not guilty of teaching the Kunala Jataka. Something else I would draw your attention to (though it is less probative than the above) is that the Kunala depicts the Bodhisatta as lying. He lies three times when he is seducing the white-robed nun Saccatapavi. But in other commentaries (I think in the Buddhavamsa or the Cariyapitaka Comm) it is stated that a Bodhisatta never violates the fourth precept. He might break the others, but never the fourth. I will continue with your other points later today. Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me.' (Diighanakha Sutta) 36456 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Dear Connie & Htoo, I’m very glad to see Connie joining the discussion. Pls participate more in Htoo's threads so that he no longer says I'm the only one and I'm sure he'll like your comments more;-). I understand and agree with most of what you both say on kamma. However, I believe there is a subtle point about whether all cetana (kamma) can bring results and what I’ve been saying is really just what I understand after going back with the same texts you’ve both been referring to (plus other commentary passages) several times to K.Sujin and gradually appreciating her explanations which of course I don’t do justice to. Just a few last comments before resting my case on this one: --- htootintnaing wrote: > Connie: >Each javana has potential > because of statements like:CMA p201 [Productive (janaka) > kamma] ...Only a kamma that has attained the status of a full course > of action (see section22 below) can perform the function of > producing rebirth linking, but ***all wholesome and unwholesome > kammas without exception can produce results during the course of > existence***. .... S: Note that: a)BB puts this comment under productive (janaka) kamma which we all agree brings result. b) I think the comment of BB’s you have asterisked maybe overstating the case or could be clarified further. Many of his Guide notes are from U Rewata Dhamma’s notes and I don’t see this one supported in the commentary for this section or 22. On the contrary, as I quoted before, under ‘supporting’ kamma, it clarifies some wholesome and unwholesome kamma cannot ‘produce a result by itself’, but can support other results. (see commentary p.174) c)Whilst all kinds of kusala and akusala cittas can bring results as Htoo has stressed and as we read about in many texts, I don’t believe this means that ever kusala and akusala citta has the potential to do so. For example, in D.O., abhisankhara refers to kamma that brings results and all kinds of kusala and akusala cittas are included, but only those that do so are referred to. As you say, all cetana is kamma, but we need to be careful how we use the term perhaps. There are two kinds of kamma as you both understand well. ... C: >All my looking at things accumulates (is kamma) and > becomes/later acts as various conditions for more seeing, liking, > disliking, etc? No single causes or results. .... S: Let’s say the lobha whilst looking accumulates. If a strong enough dose arises, there will be akusala kamma patha (see commentary p177f) which may bring results depending on other conditions including as accumulations. As you say, no single causes, but kamma condition is not the same as decisive support condition. Also, we read about 3 rounds of kamma-vatta, vipaka-vatta and kilesa-vatta. If all kilesa were the same as kamma in terms of result, two rounds would be sufficient, surely? Htoo, you suggested that when kamma patha has effect, it is to great events like storms, floods, fires etc. I don’t quite follow this as I understand kamma to only bring results by way of vipaka and rupas in the body. I assume you mean the vipaka to experience great heat and so on or other so called disasters, like Mogallana’s death. I can’t really add more without checking references, but I understand the results to be at rebirth and subsequently throughout life -the ordinary moments of cakkhuvinnana (seeing consciousness) and so on you refer to. For example, in the commentary again (to Ab.Sangaha), it says: “For as a result of a single kamma, relinking in many births does not occur, but the results in activity [during a lifetime] occur in hundreds and thousands of births. Thus it is said that ‘by giving alms to animals, the good result to be expected is a hundredfold’. (Chris will like this - it gives a ref to M111 255 and Patis 11 72-3 if you wish to check;-)). Anyway, Htoo and Connie, this has been a long on-going issue on DSG and I know I need to reflect further and also to leave it aside when I’m out of my depth as I probably am by now. At first I thought it was a rather minor academic point, but when I hear about people fearing the results of every little bit of lobha or aversion or ignorance in their lives, I realize it has some important practicality as well. Nina may also have more to add. Metta, Sarah p.s Also, Nina, I’m sure you’ve seen it, but some of the same material you are translating from the Vism Tika is covered here in ch 5 of the commentary, such as the part about prompted and unprompted kamma and the reflection in the mirror, p.197. ============== 36457 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo: If anatta is not known, citta on anatta will never arise. Panna > of knowledge that there is anatta is only taught by The Buddha. With > this knowledge when the practitioner attain jhana as he is well calm > he can then clearly see dhamma as it is. After eradication, there is > no more anusaya in jhana of arahats who are Buddhists. But jhanas > attained before The Buddha there were full anusaya behind them. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S. Agreed. Different moments of jhana citta and vipassana insight. Arahant has eradicated all anusaya. (Of course, most Buddhists are not arahants, but I'll leave this discussion here;-). Thank you for clarifying. ***** > S: Exactly so and very well explained. This is why we have to clearly > know all kinds of subtle lobha and other kilesa arising after sense > experiences in order to develop samatha and why there cannot be any > highly developed samatha, let alone jhana without a very highly > developed and fine knowledge of these various mental states arising > in daily life. .... > Htoo: Your last paragraph is not clear for me. If you could rephrase > them, I may be able to discuss on your points. .... S: Simply put, if the development of samatha is not 'right' from the beginning with right understanding of how the object brings calmness, what calmness is, what the distinction between subtle lobha and calmness is when they arise, it cannot develop. So rather than discussing access and absorption concentration and jhanas, mostly I think we need to consider questions such as what metta is, how it is different from pleasant feelings about ourselves and others and so on. Same for reflections on death, the Buddha or other daily life objects. Just concentrating on a white kasina for example is most unlikely to be wholesome concentration as I see it. Maybe you need to start a kindergarden series for us here, stressing that all wholesome states arise by conditions, any bhavana has to be with right understanding and not by wrong view and attachment trying to focus or have a special concentration experience. I agreed with your point about the Buddha not following the 'citta for all sattas' and 'sabbannuta nana knows when it attends'. Metta, Sarah p.s You mentioned the translation of some kasina terms in A.Sujin's book. Please check Nina's translation which A.Sujin has approved: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas'. However, i've also heard her say 'any colour is OK'. Aren't we attached to different colours? ================== 36458 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Dear Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo: > > If you are equipped with breathing apparatus and you are put in a > thick glass vaccum, will you be able to hear sound producing outside > of that thick glass vaccum where you are in side? > > Aakaasa as rupa is everywhere. Akasa is not included in rupa kalapa > and they are not counted even though there are akasa among rupa > kalapas. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... For this and the other points on rupas, I'd just ask you to read the first part of Nina's post to Howard on space (no 36282), also (36312), any of the posts on the same topic in 'Useful Posts' and let me know if you have any further comments. I'm going to leave the rest of this thread too (out of time). Just a passing comment on one part only about the poor man in the operating theatre: > the conducting nerve is already blocked. > > The conditions are there. He has his body parts. He is conscious. > There is touch object repeatedly tapping him. ... I'd say there are no conditions for the body consciousness vipaka cittas to arise and experience the rupas. We know there has to be body-sensitivity as a condition for this as well as the impact of the rupas. This was discussed recently in a Vism segment. You asked about sanna as memory (I just deleted in my haste) - I think 'memory' can be a misleading translation as sanna is so different from our usual understanding of the term (esp. for psychologists;-)). That's another discussion. Have to dash. I greatly appreciate all your responses and points of explanation, Htoo. Many thanks for your contributions and for keeping me on my toes,so to speak. Metta, Sarah ====== 36459 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 4:35am Subject: Re: 21 questions about Buddhism Dear Catalin, I have been answering your 21 questions at 'SanghaForIndependents'. When they are ready I will let you know. Any further questions are welcome. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Catalin wrote: > Hello, > I have a few questions about Buddhism to which I haven't found an > satisfactory answer yet. The questions are not related to each other and > are nor sorted by importance: > > 1) Why do we,nirvana,Buddha,souls,karma,everything,etc. exist (according > to Buddhism)?What is the purpose of life and this world? > 2) If nothing really is, then why keep living and not suicide? We can't > really kill ourselves if we really don't exist...Why trying to escape > something that doesn't actually exist? 36460 From: Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 100 and Tiika. Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/16/04 1:49:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > H: "The mind door gets to "draw upon" all the other senses in a way. We > "hear" silence through the mind door, and we "see" darkness through the > mind door. All absences are known through the mind door, I believe, but > they differ in that one may be a sound absence, another a sight absence, > etc." > > L: I agree that absences are known through the mind door; so no eye > consciousness is known through the mind door. We could reason that dark > is the absence of light, but don't you experience the dark? When it is > suddenly quiet, don't you experience silence? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: "Yes" to both of these, but there is more to it, I think. We hear varying levels of sound and we see varying levels of light (I am speaking phenomenologically here). But also, as there is the change from greater sound to lesser sound, there is, with regard to sound intensity, a growing absence (which is a lessening presence), and that growing relative absence, itself, is known by the mind, and, I believe, without thought i.e., nonconceptually. [The same for relative light absences.] ---------------------------------------------------- That suggests to me that> > dark and silence can be objects of sense consciousness. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Again - I agree that we see varying degrees of light and hear varying degrees of sound, but the detecting of relative absences of light and of sound as such - the relative deprivations - is related but different, and these absences, as such, are mind-door phenomena. I do not believe that we detect brightness as an absence of darkness, but as the presence of light. Likewise, I don't think we detect relative loudness as the absence of silence, but we do detect relative silence as the absence of sound. As far as seeing and hearing are concerned, there are just degrees of visual and auditory intensity, and this is "even handed", but the relation between presence and absence is an assymetrical, mnd-door phenomenon, with presence being the positive reality. This is how I see the matter - except when I flip-flop on it! ;-)) Fortunately, I have no stake I this issue at all, as I think it has little bearing on the question of enlightenment and release, and so I can simply leisurely sit about and brainstorm about it in a fully relaxed way. :-) -------------------------------------------------- > > We might further ask if the 'knowing' of no eye consciousness is in any > way similar to the experience of nibbana in a path moment. I would say > there could well be some similarity if for no other reason than that > this knowing of an absence sounds similar to the immaterial jhanas and I > suspect these jhanas are a near stepping-stone to nibbana. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think there is a commonality among all absences *as* absences. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Larry > > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36461 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 5:23am Subject: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) > Htoo: Your last paragraph is not clear for me. If you could rephrase them, I may be able to discuss on your points. .... S: Simply put, if the development of samatha is not 'right' from the beginning with right understanding of how the object brings calmness, what calmness is, what the distinction between subtle lobha and calmness is when they arise, it cannot develop. So rather than discussing access and absorption concentration and jhanas, mostly I think we need to consider questions such as what metta is, how it is different from pleasant feelings about ourselves and others and so on. Same for reflections on death, the Buddha or other daily life objects. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now I catch the point. The same idea as before. Jhana do exist even before The Buddha. They arose because there were right conditions. Even though they did not eradicated, they did know which was good and which was bad. Which was defilement and which was wholesome thing. They did develop jhana even before arising of The Buddha. Siddhattha first approached Alara. After that approached Udaka. These two teacher at least attained all rupa jhanas. They were not taught by The Buddha. But they taught Siddhattha. Within a short period, Bodhisatta attained all 4 rupa jhana and all 4 arupa jhana. But he knew these 8 jhanas were not the way of liberation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Just concentrating on a white kasina for example is most unlikely to be wholesome concentration as I see it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: All jhana kusala cittas do have panna. Who say that there is just concentration? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Maybe you need to start a kindergarden series for us here, stressing that all wholesome states arise by conditions, any bhavana has to be with right understanding and not by wrong view and attachment trying to focus or have a special concentration experience. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'a special concentration'? That is your assumption. I do not know 'a special concentration'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: I agreed with your point about the Buddha not following the 'citta for all sattas' and 'sabbannuta nana knows when it attends'. Metta, Sarah p.s You mentioned the translation of some kasina terms in A.Sujin's book. Please check Nina's translation which A.Sujin has approved: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas'. However, i've also heard her say 'any colour is OK'. Aren't we attached to different colours? ================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I think I have discussed this matter with Christine. I do not remember the Group. Maybe dhamma-list, or maybe TeachingsOfBuddha. Any colour here needs to be unicolour. Not a mixed colours like (blue+ red + white + green + violet + orange + brown + yellow + black). But nila should be darker colour. It is used in creation of darkness. Black, brown, violet or all colours that approach darkness are all OK. But I am not cling to any colour. I have never seen any monks or bhikkhus or hermits who wear blue robe or green robe which would seem very odd. With Metta, Htoo Naing 36462 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 5:27am Subject: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Htoo, Have to dash. I greatly appreciate all your responses and points of > explanation, Htoo. Many thanks for your contributions and for keeping me > on my toes,so to speak. > > Metta, > > Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, This part of discussion is done. With Metta, Htoo Naing 36463 From: Ken O Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. From my memory, i remember without light there will be no seeing. So we cant see darkness :). Darkness cannot be compare as a contrast to light. If it is totally dark like in a cave, we cant see anything, there is no such thing as seeing dark. We just dont see :) like a blind man. Just like silence is an absence of sound, it means there is no vibration impinging on the ear sense. As long as there is no vibration we consider it as silence, that is all. Neither does it represent anything that rupas cannot cover. An absence does not implied an anti-rupa :). An absence is can be just space in between. Just like darkness can be also space rupas ok enough for the moment c u pple around Ken O > > > Dark is the absence of light. Silence is the absence of > sound. We can > > experience darkness, can we not? We also can experience silence. > And they are > > distinguishable!! So absences are realities. The question is: > Where > are they > > experienced? I think the correct answer may be "via the mind > door". > (And yet, > > doesn't it seem that one actually SEES darkness? I think so. So > the > matter is > > unclear.) > > > > With metta, > > Howard 36464 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Dear Nina, Trivia for the day: Did you know that if you accidently put your right hand one key to the left of where it is supposed to be on a typewriter, your name comes out "Buba"? In any case, KS's reminder not to confuse thinking and awareness hits right on the mark. Theorizing and rationation too easily strengthen wrong view. Even if we stumble onto a correct conceptual model (unlikely), it is still not samma ditthi because samma ditthi is a correct viewing of reality, not a correct opinion. Dhamma is understood through experiencing, not through logic or word games. Dan 36465 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] More comments on Phil's fabric softening posts Hi Sarah Thanks for your comments. You always give me a lot of confidence in Dhamma. Here's a long babble on the topic of eradicating defilements. It might be better not to send it, but it's already written. I know people who don't want to read it will not read much further, so no harm done I guess. >>>K.S. : "Each kind of wholesome deed means actually giving up or elimination of defilements. Kusala which is daana, generosity, is the giving up or elimination of avarice, of clinging to possessions." >>>Phil> So I wonder if K Sujin "Èeach kind of wholesome deed means actually giving up or elimination of defilements" is tilted towards coarse defilements. Well, avarice, which she mentions, is not that coarse, I guess. I'll keep learning more as I read.< .... Sarah: At that moment. When there is daana, no akusala. Nothing finally eliminated except by panna arising with lokuttara cittas. Other kinds of kusala (other than satipatthana) support, but without satipatthana, no eradicating at any level as you say. For this reason, I question some of the comments made in B.Bodhi's article you quoted on how 'works of merit comes first in the process of inner growth' etc. As I wrote:S:>I heard K.Sujin on a tape remind people that only vipassana can eradicate kilesa, not even jhana, much less right speech or action without any panna. Because if "that person is still that person, there is no idea of how to eradicate the idea of self".< Phil: "If that person is still that person, there is no idea of how to eradicate the idea of self." I like that line. I can see that at the subtler levels. But a reading of the following quote suggests that K Sujin might agree with B Bodhi (and the hunch I had) that coarse defilements are eradicated to an important extent through certain kinds of deeds of merit. Here is a quote from "Deeds of Merit." "There are different degrees of eliminating the defilements which condition akusala citta, the citta which is impure. Daana, generosity, the giving away of possessions for the benefit of someone else, is one level of eliminating defilements. Another level is siila, which is the elimination of coarse defilements, of akusala through body and speech. There is also the level of bhaavanaa, mental development, which leads to gradual decreasing the strength of defilements, until they are completely eradicated and will not arise again. (end quote)" Well, on rereading it, it's not saying that crude defilements are eliminated in the intentional way I'm suggesting. I take it back. What was it that B Bodhi said? Let me go get a quote: "When merit is said to "purge and purify the mental continuum," it is so described in reference to its capacity to arrest the surging tide of the defilements which threatens to sweep the mind towards the perilous deep of transgressional action. Only wisdom -- the supramundane wisdom of the noble paths -- can eradicate the defilements at the level of latency, which is necessary if the bonds of existence are to be broken and deliverance attained. But the practice of merit can contribute much towards attenuating their obsessive force and establishing a foothold for wisdom to exercise its liberating function. Wisdom can operate only upon the base of a purified mind; the accumulation of merit purifies the mind; hence merit provides the supporting condition for wisdom." (end quote) Phil: I think this is splendid and puts in words something that I have been incapable of doing. This idea of the practice of merit "attenuating the obsessive force" of defilements which "threaten to sweep the mind towards the perilous deeps of transgressional action." We cannot begin to take even the smallest steps toward developing the kind of wisdom that eradicates at a subtle level if our mind is prone to the constant arising of very crude defilements. We have to clean out the gross matter first, and I think practices that might seem self-driven on the surface can do that. And I think that's what I was talking about with "fabric softener", which is a term I use to refer to feel-good pop Buddhism, and practices such as "doing metta" for oneself. (I don't do it, actually - I find that reflecting on the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha is all the comforting I could possibly want - but I was surprised to see in the brahma-viharas section of Vis that metta for oneself is defended as right practice.) Sarah, when I talk about gross matter, I'm referring to a degree of defilements that I think would be very foreign to someone with your decades on the path. So when I say crude defilements, I mean *#%&# crude though I won't go into details. Now, of course these very crude defilements rise in a conditioned way, and as I learned recently they can reappear when one thinks they are close to defeated. But taking action against them very early on the path can be - I know you don't like this word - effective. There is more room for will power at this stage of dealing with crude defilements than there is with the medium or subtle defilements, I think. Gentle will power, but still will power. It won't take us far on the path, but it can help make sure that we don't start walking on the path with crud all over our shoes. There is still wrong view of self involved here, but there are millions of people reading pop Buddhist books who are benefiting from Dhamma, making progress on "attenuating the obsessive force" of defilements, probably unaware that there is still self at the center of their practices, but benefiting nonetheless. As long as there is this wrong view of self they won't go any further than that ( I should say "we" - I am still in there) but they are doing the work that is necessary to get their house clean, mentally. I can't really explain what I'm talking about, but I wonder if there's a basic condition of mental propriety that is necessary in order to begin the serious practice that will lead to weakening and eventually eradicating medium and even subtler defilements. I remember something in the first or second book in Vis about making the place of meditation suitably clean - about the futility of meditating in a dirty room, or words to that effect. I have a feeling something similar applies to vipassana. Sarah, I'm not really explaining myself clearly. I'm not feeling pressure about figuring out what the difference is between eradicating crude defilements and the subtler forms. I've already forgotten so many important things I've read in the last few weeks. I've printed out lots of messages from Nina and others, and read through them once, and will again. I'm grateful that I realize how central the topic of eradicating defilements is. A year or so ago I would have thought it sounded uptight and moralistic, puritanical. Now I know better. Thanks for your other comments as well. They have been printed out and put in my DSG binder so I might comment on them later. Metta, Phil . 36466 From: Ken O Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) Hi Phil Simply put that is what Buddha tryign to do all his life, telling us this self that experience is magical, there is no such thing as a self, we make it up all. Then we make it all up that we experience it. There is a citta that is knowing the object or experience the object but there is no self that know that object. So citta is just knowing an object, the rest of feelings, perceptions are all done by cetasikas. With citta, there will no thing that know the object, which means we cant experience anything at all. No seeing bc there is no object. No unpleasant feeling bc there is no object to be unpleasant for vedana to feel. Citta is consider the co-ordinator of all cetasikas, it co-ordinates so that we are able to experience an pleasant sound (an object) etc. Cheers Ken O --- "Dan D." wrote: > > Dear Phil, > I'm having a hard time writing an adequate response to your > question > for a couple of reasons. First, I'm out of practice, and, second, > the > question is enormously difficult -- especially for me, since I have > > only a beginner's understanding of 'citta'. > > 'Citta' is simply the experiencing or cognizing of an object. > People > have an almost irresistable tendency to follow this up with: "Who > (or > what) does the experiencing?" The Theravada answer is that there is > > simply the experience. No 'one' experiences it. There is simply the > > experiencing. > > "Yeah, but...yeah, but..." > > -- Hmmm... As my cousin used to say, "No 'yabbuts' around here!" > > "Yeah, but how can there an experience with no one to experience > it?" > Oh, for goodness sake! Why on earth would it be necessary to posit > a > mystical 'someone' to do the experiencing? There is simply the > experiencing! > > What kinds of experiencing? Abhidhammatha sangaha gives a succint > list of the kinds of experiencing that arise. There are 89 (or 121) > > distinctly different types enumerated. It can be very helpful to > ponder these -- and in the pondering keep a check on the "yabbuts" > all their different manifestations. > > Here, the word 'experiencing' is not the greatest because it does > tend to evoke the response of "who experiences?" and is used so > frequently in English other purposes. In particular, we need a word > > for 'experience at a single moment', and that is how 'citta' is > used. > Reading through the types of cittas, we see things such as seeing- > consciousness and "one [lobha-rooted] consciousness, accompanied by > > joy, associated with wrong view, unprompted." The seeing- > consciousness is simply the registering of a visual object in the > mind. The lobha-rooted cittas are the experiencings (cittas) of > objects (thoughts), colored by different shades (cetasikas) such as > > pleasant feeling (vedana), desire for more pleasure (lobha), and > the > yabbut of 'I like this' (ditthi). > > > > Ph: This brought home to me that I don't *really* know what > cittas > *are*, > > let alone cetasikas. Are cittas agents of knowing, mental > energies, > or what? > > I don't think it can be explained in words in a way that I can > truly > > understand - yet. Understanding will have to gradually arise, as > with anatta > > and nibanna (well, that can never be understood by the mind) and > other tough > > nuts to crack. I can understand how cittas are categorized, how > cetasikas > > differ from one another to a certain degree, but I don't yet > truly > know what > > they are. > > Again, it is helpful to think in terms of bare experiencing, the > types of bare experiencing, how to recognize the different types of > > bare experiencings -- all the time excising the notion of a 'who' > to > do the experiencing. > > > > Ph: This is what I've been thinking recently. But I also > thought > that in > > addition to making the mistake of cogitating about what action is > > good and > > then going to do it but ending up with akusala citta because > there > was > > impure mind lying beneath, we could also get caught up in > thinking > too much > > about whether there were pure intentions or not, and end up > missing > the > > opportunity to do good deeds because we are thinking too much. > All > this > > thinking about thinking about thinking, on my part anyways! But I > > do have > > faith that if we press on in our thinking in the company of good > Dhamma > > friends, the thinking will gradually evaporate and something more > > direct > > will be revealed to the patient mind. > > Well said. I would add that when the roots are simply understood, > the > mind naturally inclines to the 'good deeds'. When the mind is > clear, > there is no confusion or hesitation about taking advantage of the > opportunities to "do good" that arise at every moment. > > Metta, > > Dan > 36467 From: Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/16/04 9:03:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > From my memory, i remember without light there will be no seeing. So > we cant see darkness :). Darkness cannot be compare as a contrast to > light. If it is totally dark like in a cave, we cant see anything, > there is no such thing as seeing dark. We just dont see :) like a > blind man. Just like silence is an absence of sound, it means there > is no vibration impinging on the ear sense. As long as there is no > vibration we consider it as silence, that is all. Neither does it > represent anything that rupas cannot cover. An absence does not > implied an anti-rupa :). An absence is can be just space in between. > Just like darkness can be also space rupas > > ok enough for the moment > > c u pple around > > Ken O > ================================ However, Ken , is it not so that silence is different from darkness? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36468 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner4-Introduction(a) > Hi Phil Hi Ken O What a nice surprise. Actually today I was wondering where you are. > Simply put that is what Buddha tryign to do all his life, telling us > this self that experience is magical, Magical? Like a fantasy, a fiction, right? Magical makes me think of Ice Capades or Cats or something which are well....I see your point. there is no such thing as a > self, we make it up all. Then we make it all up that we experience > it. There is a citta that is knowing the object or experience the > object but there is no self that know that object. So citta is just > knowing an object, the rest of feelings, perceptions are all done by > cetasikas. With citta, there will no thing that know the object, > which means we cant experience anything at all. Is this a typo? Do you mean "*Without* citta, there will be no thing that know the object, which means we can't experience..." Or do you mean what you wrote "with citta,....*we* can't experience anything at all, meaning "we" as in conventional meaning self? A bit confused. No seeing bc there > is no object. No unpleasant feeling bc there is no object to be > unpleasant for vedana to feel. Citta is consider the co-ordinator of > all cetasikas, it co-ordinates so that we are able to experience an > pleasant sound (an object) etc. > Cheers > Ken Cheers back, Phil 36469 From: Ken O Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi Howard Silence is different from darkness conceptually. But it can be the same in rupas. It can be also space performing different function due to our concept craze mind. I hope I am talking sense :) Anyway I am speculating (it is a hunch) there are experts there who could give u the logical explanations. Just wish to make a point that absence is not anti-rupa and neither does it mean it is out of the 24 rupas :) Ken O > ================================ > However, Ken , is it not so that silence is different from > darkness? > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, > a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering > lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > 36470 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: CSC 4-[Sarah: "citta is..."] Dear Sarah, I don't follow you when you write: "many kinds of right view/right understanding (see Vism,beg ch X1V), not just satipatthana, but you're right about mundane and supramundane rt und. in MN117." What I see in the beginning of vism XIV is: "Understanding (pañña) is of many sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to explain it all would accomplish neither its intention nor its purpose, and would, besides, lead to distraction; so we whall confine ourselves to the kind intended here, which is understanding consisting insight knowledge associated with profitable consciousness." There is no indication how the other kinds would consititute "Right view". In particular, I don't see how the beginning of pages of Vism. XIV support any notion of a "conceptual right view." Am I missing something? Dan 36471 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:56am Subject: Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Dear Herman, You write: > I see karma in the following way. With whatever intention you act in the > world from time to time, so you will perceive the world to act towards > you from time to time. This is a great point, Herman, and it is certainly an aspect of kamma/vipaka. Another aspect is that greed/hatred/delusion tend to produce more greed/hatred/delusion. These states are "suffering" in and of themselves. Another aspect: Suppose a tree falls on your leg. Is this because you were bad in the past? Of course! The bad actions (akusala kamma) keep "you" going, and eventually something "bad" will happen. Dan 36472 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 7:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) ... > C: >All my looking at things accumulates (is kamma) and > > becomes/later acts as various conditions for more seeing, liking, > > disliking, etc? No single causes or results. ....................................... S: Let's say the lobha whilst looking accumulates. If a strong enough dose arises, there will be akusala kamma patha (see commentary p177f) which may bring results depending on other conditions including as accumulations. As you say, no single causes, but kamma condition is not the same as decisive support condition. Also, we read about 3 rounds of kamma-vatta,vipaka-vatta and kilesa-vatta. If all kilesa were the same as kamma in terms of result, two rounds would be sufficient, surely? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah, could you please explain a little bit on 3 rounds that is kamma-vatta, vipaka-vitta and kilesa-vatta? Vipaka-vatta is unavoidable. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Htoo, you suggested that when kamma patha has effect, it is to great events like storms, floods, fires etc. I don't quite follow this as I understand kamma to only bring results by way of vipaka and rupas in the body. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I drew out apparent examples. You will surely remember that since you have well prepared and well remembered most of your events,I means that you experienced ( including yourself and others ), there are events come together. They come in a wave form. Even in case of The Buddha Himself there were different days. Some days, even The Buddha had to suffer from condition like famine. There was a time when all people in a region suffered famine. At that time, bhikkhus received a little food and on some days virtually none. They had to crush rice grains and had to bunjati (eat). When there is a storm, all have to suffered. But degrees of suffering differ. That is the worst to just minimum to virtually none. Some time, The Buddha had to stay alone the whole 3 months in forest without any human companions. Sarah, I understand what you refer to. What I am trying to say is there are waves. Waves of good and bad. They happen like circadium rhythm. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: I assume you mean the vipaka to experience great heat and so on or other so called disasters, like Mogallana's death. I can't really add more without checking references, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not only disasters but also in daily ordinary life. Kamma is too complicated to fully understand. Right now, you may hear something. That sound arises according to conditions. These again have to coincide with arising vipakas in beings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: ...but I understand the results ...snip...snip.. expected is a hundredfold'. (Chris will like this -it gives a ref to M111 255 and Patis 11 72-3 if you wish to check;-)). Anyway, Htoo and Connie, this has been a long on-going issue on DSG and I know I need to reflect further and also to leave it aside when I'm out of my depth as I probably am by now. At first I thought it was a rather minoracademic point, but when I hear about people fearing the results of every little bit of lobha or aversion or ignorance in their lives, I realize it has some important practicality as well. Nina may also have more to add. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good. Yes, there are many to discuss. Nina would add something here. I also hope. With Metta, Htoo Naing 36473 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:31am Subject: Re: Theory and Practice _Sukin & Htoo Ongoing discussion: [ Sukin & Htoo ] Sukin: I admire your patience, a good example for me. Thank you. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I try to be limitless. But sometimes limit arises but I smile immediately and impatience does not come out evidently. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: >Htoo: Dear Sukin, I was not assessing that monk. I was just retrospectively making comments. He passed away long time ago. And I was not as learned as I have been now. I just mentioned this because those who seem to attain higher nana Sukin:I realize that, and I don't think that you are the kind of person who will want to do it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No I was not that kind of person. But I have to be very careful these days to be non-judgemental especially when I meet people in different forms. In my story, I was not assessing. What I am talking now is how he was calm. This is just in my memory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >The monk in my story did not mention anything like declaration or announcement. What I had heard was that he did not lie flat on his back in his final years ( more than 13 years not lying on bed ). He did that but not as a ritual. Sukin: I wonder what the significance of this is?! What are your own thoughts? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not have any comment to give on this matter. But I think it might be just a continuation of 'dutinga' which he might have been practising before his final years. We worldly people have instincts. Bhikkhus are human beings. They break one instinct by joining sangha order. Next are food and sleep. I do not say, the monk did not sleep. But lying in bed is, I think, what almost all people of the world will not avoid. I do not want to be judgemental but this is my thought which arises as you asked. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >I remember that the Venerable preached that, 'When you are on board like a ship or boat or ferry, you have to note 'moving..moving, sitting..sitting'. He preached that for lay people...snip.. move to higher level and this urge changes a bit. Sukin: I will come back to this later in the post. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That's fine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Here I have to express in two different forms. One is my own response that comes from my wisdom. The second is from my learned knowledge. 1. I do not think ..snip..coming from their sanna. 2. Pure jhana without development of any vipassana nana can ..snip..may well be sanna or may be partly from panna. >I stick to 1 while 2 is still possible. Sukin: I had the following in mind. 1. The story in the Tipitaka about the mistress and the maid. To me, the conditions around her were such that she had no cause to feel any anger or irritation until her maid decided one day, to test her. 2. A certain monk may have the accumulations to follow the Vinaya strictly, but not necessarily with any understanding. Furthermore, the environment (temple) may be in tune with his accumulations. 3. Someone may study the Dhamma as he would any worldly subject. In which case he may be able to remember and recall concepts within the Teachings quite appropriately to the situation. But this does not necessarily involve any deep understanding of any one of those concepts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I accept that. You mean direct knowledge? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >You will notice that I wrote in different styles. Some say that I am >writing impossible practice. I do not think so. >As soon as we wake up in the bed and as soon as consciousness ..snip.. Sukin: I do believe that you are not boasting, I think that you are very sincere. But allow me to express my view about the development of sati and panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I like these two words. Amara always says these two words. But I would say there is no panna without sati. But there are sati without panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Firstly, there is no control as to what concepts will be the object of citta at the moment. There is no control as to what experience through which doorway will condition a reminder about the significance of developing sati and panna. Depending on the conditions, but mostly on accumulations, one will have right or wrong thoughts if not a moment of satipatthana. One's `thinking' or perception of body and verbal and bodily intimation can become the object of the present moment, however if sati and panna has been well developed, satipatthana can arise there and then. But there is no guarantee that this would happen. Also I believe it possible that when sati and panna has been much developed, the tendency to mental proliferation has been so reduced, that increasingly `concepts' such as the above may replace thoughts on kama and philosophical speculations. But I am not sure of this. If so, however, then I think this is more a `consequence' of developed wisdom than a recommended practice to adopt. And this I think may be where you are, I hope! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Sukin. It is nice to talk with you. I agree above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >Yes. Mahasatipatthana should be our part of life and it should be in >daily life. > But we should not abandon the formal practice. When I write this, I >am thinking that you may disagree. Sukin: Yes, I do disagree. As I said above, I don't think there can be any control as to what will be the object of citta and whether there will be right or wrong view with regard to it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know that there is no control. Formal practice I mean sitting in usual position of lotus. The Buddha had done His job that is searching of answers. All arahats had done their jobs at arahatta magga khana. All their jobs had been done. But I would say their sitting under a tree as formal practice. They are not looking for anything why sikkhas are looking for arahatta magga nana. But the action of sitting, staying in mahasatipatthana much not that differ. The Buddha did sit. Mahamoggalana did sit. Sariputta did sit.Upali did sit. Kondanna did sit. Assaji did sit. Ananda did sit. Many other arahats did sit. But these days people are discussing 'formal sitting or not'. I just smile. Amara, Sarah, and some other people would deny sitting. As I anticipated you, Sukin also reject the idea of sitting. I do not put aside pariyatti. But sitting formally is just following the foregoers. I am not sitting in order to 'arise my sati, my panna, my samadhi, my concentration'. But I do sit daily. I discern on what I experienced while I am sitting. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Actually, I have reservation with regard to any `idealistic' attitude about developing Mahasatipatthana even in daily life. I feel this way because it can condition the idea of `self' and `control'. In a day if there is no satipatthana at all, it is good to know this, better than then following some practice and risk having a false idea of achievement and progress. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here what I can see is initial misunderstanding. If initial idea was out of way, there will never approach the right way unless the initial way is recognised as wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >Once I saw Sujin's writing regarding this. I noticed that Sujin was >clear to express. But pupils took differently. Nina is straight >forward. But cerain pupil is not. Sukin: Can you elaborate? I haven't come to my present position taking K. Sujin or Nina as authority. I do reason, but there is also what I believe to be a degree of experience. But I may be deluded, so please continue with this discussion with me; I may come to adopt your viewpoint ;-). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Once I read a single sentence in a very long message. The message was written by K.Sujin, I think. That sentence attracted me why some people are aversive to 'formal sitting'. When I happen to find that again, I will post it at DSG directing you, Sukin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >I would say mahasatipatthana should be in our daily life. On the >other hand, formal practice should be practised. >The Buddha stayed in phalasamapatti. Great arahats stayed in >phalasamapatti. Many arahats stayed in phalasamapatti. Some >arahats sometimes stayed in nirodha sapamatti. Sukin: But is this the same as "formal practice"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have explained my view above. They have done their job and they do not have any more job for liberation. But they do sit in formal sitting styles. And all sikkha bhikkhus in The Buddha time sat, stood, walked and so on. Sitting is a part of practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: >If someone is aversive to formal practice, I would feel pity for him >or her. Sukin: It is actually none of my business. But I do admit feeling some aversion sometime. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is good to mind own business. When you say feeling some aversion, you have already found one of real dhamma that is dosa as a cetasika that arises along with citta, which is good for you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: But not with regard to doing it myself, I just don't believe in the concept, but towards those who encourage it, especially who choose to disregard pariyatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Pariyatti, patipatti, pativedha are sasana. Nothing is less important. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >But clinging to formal practice without full understanding of >implication may sound like rituals as Sujin said. Sukin: This is obvious, but I think any idea of `doing' which disregards in principle, that there is a dhamma arising "NOW" to be known, is silabattaparamasa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Could you please explain silabattaparamasa? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: It is time to go and pick up my son from school. So please excuse my leaving out the rest of you post. And please keep going with this discussion. :-) Metta, Sukin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That's fine. How nice it is to discuss with you. With Metta, Htoo Naing 36474 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:37am Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism ( 03 ) Dear Catalin and All, This post is 3rd post of replies to Catalin's 21 questions. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 5)Why do some people from some schools pray for help from the Buddha? Isn't Buddha in nirvana away from our words? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Even though The Buddha do not exist any more, good will and good wish do work and they do have a good effect. When someone prays to The Buddha who you will be thinking that in Nibbana, other people might hear. Any of them may give help. If there is no human being nearby then those beings who hear their prayer may give them help in some way. So their actions are not to be hinder if they wish to do so. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 6)I found this quote: "The 4th Buddhist council (c. 100 AD) - . Theravada Buddhism does not recognize the authenticity of this council, and it is sometimes called the "council of HERETICAL monks"." -isn't Buddhism an tolerant religion? And what about calling some of the Buddhist ways a LESSER vehicle, or nichiren attitude towards other branches of Buddhism? etc.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This has to be verified. Actually there is no branch at all, no vehicle at all. The Buddha did not preach this is lesser vehicle, this is greater vehicle, this is this branch and that is for that branch. In real there is only a single Buddhism. The problems are happening because of their ignorance and lack of wisdom. It is wrong to say 'tolerant' but it is a cool religion and non- harming religion. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36475 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:34am Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism ( 01 ) Dear Catalin and All, I have taken the trouble of Catalin. Please see below for detail. May you all be free from any kind of suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: As there are 21 questions, I will answer question after question and there will be many replies as there are 21 questions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: Hello, I have a few questions about Buddhism to which I haven't found an satisfactory answer yet. The questions are not related to each other and are nor sorted by importance: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 21 questions is more than ' a few questions '. But you are not limited to ask. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 1) Why do we,nirvana,Buddha,souls,karma,everything,etc. exist (according to Buddhism)?What is the purpose of life and this world? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Why do 1.we 2.nibbana ( nirvana ) 3.The Buddha ( should be The Buddha rather than Buddha ) 4.souls 5.kamma ( karma ) 6.everything etc etc exist ( according to Buddhism )? Whether this is according to Buddhism or not, the answers should be the same. Your question is who do these exist? First validity of question has to be checked. Is there 'we'? Is there 'The Buddha'? Is there 'souls'? Is there everything etc etc? No. There is no such things in real. There is no 'we', no 'The Buddha', no 'souls', no 'everything etc etc' at all. Can you find such things in real? I must ask back to you. Nibbana is a reality. Kamma is realtion and potential rather than reality. But there do exist kamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 2nd part. What is the purpose of life and this world? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Life does not have purpose and this world does not have purpose. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 2) If nothing really is, then why keep living and not suicide? We can't really kill ourselves if we really don't exist...Why trying to escape something that doesn't actually exist? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Keep living not our actions. But killing anyone any being including ourselves is action. All actions have intention. All intentions worth their corresponding effects. This is why kamma dictate you and all. So you do not need to worry for keep living of you yourself and others, right. And the worst is that you do not need to encourage you yourself and others to do suicide. This is action. First you yourself have a mind to urge such an idea. Second you have alread spread your message to several Yahoo Groups of Buddhism. This is vaci equivalent of your action. This equivalent resulted from your bodily actions of typing and sending messages to different people and different groups, right. All these have intentions. This have been done and you cannot be undone these again. But I would suggest you not to think them again, OK. And your last 2 sentences are not logical. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36476 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:14am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 063 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Akincannayatana arupa jhana is also included in 5th rupa jhana in terms of jhana factors even though it is an arupa jhana. Akincannayatana arupa jhana citta has ekaggata as jhana factor and this citta is also associated with upekkha vedana. This 3rd arupa jhana has to be practised in order to becomes proficient. The citta is arupavacara citta. It is a jhana citta. Its object is natthibho pannatta that is the idea that there is nothing or nothingness. Through different exercises, there finds weakness in akincannayatana arupa jhana. Because this arupa jhana is quite subtly close to vinnanancayata arupa jhana if nothingness is not directed. Falling back to vinnanancayatana may also lead to falling back to akasanancayatana and this again may draw back to rupa jhana. This step is a bit difficult. Because the citta itself that is akincannayatana arupa jhana citta itself is very subtle and almost inconspicuous for contemplation. If there is enough panna, this citta again has weakness that there is a possibility of falling back to vinnanancayatana arupa jhana. This makes the practitioner to explore further whether there is any higher jhana. He will continue to practise his akincannayatana arupa jhana and at a time, as he becomes to realise the weakness and become to see what this 3rd arupa jhana citta is, he will slowly detach from this akincannayatana arupa jhana. Instead he will contemplate on the 3rd arupa jhana citta as this 3rd arupa jhana citta is very very very subtle, so inconspicuous but still it is recognisable for him as he has enough wisdom to see such matter. He notices that the 3rd arupa jhana citta is so inconspicuous that it is hard to see and difficult to say whether there is a sanna in that citta. If it is assumed as there is not a sanna, equally it is also hard to see and difficult to say whether there is na-sanna or non- perception. As it is equally hard to say whether there is a sanna or there is a na-sanna, in simple English it is difficult to say whether there is a perception or whether there is a non-perception. The mind is well calm. There is just upekkha vedana in that citta. The object of this new citta is paramattha dhamma that is the 3rd arupa jhana citta. This new citta is called n'evasannanasannayatana arupavacara arupakusala citta. This citta is 73rd citta of 89 citta. If this arises in arahats, it is called n'evasannanasannayatana arupavacara arupakiriya citta. This citta is 81st citta of 89 cittas in total and the last lokiya citta. When a person who is in n'evasannanasannayatana arupavacara arupakusala citta, he will be reborn in n'evasanna-nasannayatana arupa brahma bhumi with the patisandhi citta called ''nevasanna- nasannayatana arupavacara arupavipaka citta''. This citta is 77th citta of 89 cittas. N'evasannanasannayatana is a long word. It has 'Na, eva, sanna, nasanna, ayatana' as components. Na means 'no' 'not'. Eva means 'such as' 'such' 'such that' 'such is'. N'eva means such is not. What 'such is not' is sanna and nasanna. Sanna means perception. Nasanna means non-perception. So it means that sanna or non-sanna are not. In the otherway this may mean that 'neither ..sanna.. nor ..nasanna..'. Both are wrong to say and both are equally not right. Ayatana is where the subject dwell or depend on. So far we have discussed all lokiya cittas that is 81 cittas. There are 8 cittas left to be discussed. They are lokuttara cittas. There are 8 lokuttara cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36477 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:36am Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism ( 02 ) Dear Catalin and All, Here are more answers to Catalin's questions. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 3)Why are there miracles in all the worlds religion, some witnessed by many, even in religions with totally opposed dogmas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Miracles are not miracles as you think. But things are going on their own schedules. No one is influencing on them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 4)Why do some Buddhist build huge Buddha statues when Buddha was just a man and didn't demand worshiping? And also why they worship gods not related to Buddhism (from popular mythology) when Buddha said we don't need Gods? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Statues are just representatives. There are 4 representatives of The Buddha who had helped countless beings when He was there in this world and even in His absence after Mahaparinibbana. These 4 representatives are 1. Element or 'dhatu ceti' such as bones, teeth, canines, molars, skull or The Buddha 2. The utensils of The Live Buddha 'paribhoga ceti' such as robes, bowl etc etc 3. For remembrance of The Live Buddha 'uddhissa ceti' such as photo, drawing, painting, image, statute, including your thinking if you really admire The Buddha 4. Teachings of The Buddha 'Dhamma ceti' such as suttas, vinayas, abhidhamma, verses, Tipitaka etc etc. Even though The Buddha did not demand worshipping, He did preached that there are goodness. Hugh statues are for general public such as a large crowd of people. Individuals can place a small representative in their shrine at home. Those who destroyed hugh statue did action. This action is bigger than destroying smaller statutes because they had to produce higher effort. They were destroying the hope of a large crowd of people who would otherwise became good people in the presence of statute. In the absence, they would not have any inhibition and they would do more bad actions. The reason of making high statute is for a great crowd of people. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: why they worship gods not related to Buddhism? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As long as they take refuge in Triplegem that is The Buddha, The Dhamma, The Sangha, their actions related to worshipping gods not related to Buddhism is simless and harmless. Do you do good to your parents? If yes, such good doing can also do to gods not related to Buddhism provided they do not assume gods are their refuges. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36478 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 100 and Tiika. Hi Larry, op 16-09-2004 01:30 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Thanks for your answers regarding registration with roots and the object > of bhavanga. I didn't completely understand the answers but maybe it > will become clearer as we go along. N: If it is not clear, do mention it, I try again. I read details in Expositor and TA, but of course there are dark areas for me. Such as past rupa. All the details about the object of bhavangacitta maybe not so relevant now. But as to the duration of a process, understanding this gives a basic idea about the occurring of cittas in processes. L: Also, concerning no eye consciousness and dark, I think I disagree with > everyone. It seems to me dark is an object of eye consciousness, > essentially black or shades of grey, while no eye consciousness isn't > anything visible at all. Basically not a visual experience. N: Agreed, not a visual experience. L:I'm tempted > to say the nibbana of eye consciousness, but I won't. N: Better not. You wrote to Howard: < I agree that absences are known through the mind door; so no eye consciousness is known through the mind door.> N: It seems just an idea or concept, an object of thinking only, not a reality. Dan warned us as to thinking of absences. It does not seem so relevant to me. L <... When it is suddenly quiet, don't you experience silence? That suggests to me that dark and silence can be objects of sense consciousness.> N: An idea of silence. An object of thinking only. We have to remember Dan's warning! L: We might further ask if the 'knowing' of no eye consciousness is in any way similar to the experience of nibbana in a path moment. I would say there could well be some similarity if for no other reason than that this knowing of an absence sounds similar to the immaterial jhanas and I suspect these jhanas are a near stepping-stone to nibbana. N: The person who can attain arupa-jhana must emerge from that jhana and develop insight, being aware of dhammas, such as the jhana factors. Otherwise he cannot attain enlightenment. I do not see arupa jhana as a stepping stone. You wrote to Howard about suchness of reality. L: "Suchness" is tathata. I wonder if sabhava is a synonym of tathata, also found in tathagata, "thus gone one". N: Tathaa: thus, in that way. Sabhaava: nature, condition, reality. B.B. translated the meaning of the word Tathaagata, as rendered by the Co. (In his book The all-embracing Net of Views). Here are a few meanings in short: thus come, like the former Buddhas, after having developed all the perfections. Thus gone, he went the same way as the former Buddhas. His way of going was real (tatha). Subco: the movement of his knowledge. He has come to the real characteristics of dhamma. He is the speaker of what is real. Subco: Nina. 36479 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Dear Al, You are so kind. You express words of appreciation and you know, this is dana or generosity. It is motivated by kusala citta, but kusala citta is not AL's kusala. It arises when there are the right conditions for it. Kusala citta is different from akusala citta with discouragement. The last one is rooted in dosa, aversion. Discouragement is not AL's, it arises because of conditions. So we can see that at different moments of the day there are kusala cittas and akusala cittas. If you understand just this, you are well on the way to understand Dhamma. And without the Buddha there is no way to know this precisely. The growth of pañña is difficult for all of us, but we should remember that pañña needs supporting conditions. Al, when you express to your parents or sister kind words of appreciation of their good qualities, there are kusala cittas with dana, and all such moments are accumulated and form conditions for the growth of understanding. We should not underestimate small gestures with kindness. Good friendship is also a supporting condition. Also confidence in the Buddha and you certainly have. Many conditions are needed for the development of understanding. We do not have to wait, favorable conditions can be cultivated. Nina. op 15-09-2004 23:27 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: > Nina, > > I'd just like to personally thank you for the works you've contributed > to the community and to your personal presence here and correspondence > with me. You are doing yourself and the rest of us a great service. 36480 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Herman, op 15-09-2004 01:09 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofman@t...: > I hope you and your family are well. N: Thanks, we should not complain (Dutch, in Brabant: we moge nie moppere.) > > HH > It is very interesting, this discussion. Such different viewpoints > about the same material. How do we find out what something is? We all > agree that citta knows. Even in English this is so. Conscious is from > the Latin "with knowing". We are all conscious, but yet we differ. How > can this be? Knowing isn't insight, and we all know that too > > HH > We always need to check whether we are just conscious, or whether > we are thinking or just plain deluded. It is so easy to be fooled. N: Yes, we are fooled by ignorance. I am not thinking of science but the deeper kind of ignorance the Buddha taught: ignorance of dhammas that appear now, one at a time. H: Do the test and one can > see what rupas without eye-base look like. All day long we are seeing > how the mind presents blindness. It turns out that blindness is seeing. > But we don't see that, and never will if introspection is the only means > at our disposal. N: Herman, science does not help me to cure me of the delusion the Buddha explained. H: The experience of > what appears now is just what it is, concepts or not. But the > after-the-fact rigid imposition of a wrong or incomplete concept on what > is observed will prevent any insight from arising. ... N: You said: can this be?> We have different thoughts, some correct, some not. We are all in the cycle of birth and death: ignorance conditions sankhaara: good and bad kamma. It conditions different ways of thinking. Nina. 36481 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] not so classifiable Dear Azita, op 16-09-2004 01:53 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > T.A.Sujin described this event - the taking up of the object by > the mind door, after the sense door - as two pieces of thin paper, > one on top of the other; if a drop of water touched the first sheet > then it would [almost] instantly reach the second sheet. N: Very good, I remember now. I had forgotten it. A: Maybe you have heard this before, but when I heard it, that not- > so-classifiable-object concept became a little clearer for me. NIna. 36482 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Hello Phil, I appreciate any kind of posting you find useful and suitable for this or that moment. I read now to Lodewijk: In Asoka's Footsteps, as a preparation for India. Before that: Preserving the Buddha's teachings, our last India trip. Nina. op 16-09-2004 01:47 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > so with the permission > of this group I will start posting passages as I'm doing with "Deeds of > Merit." 36483 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Bagels, Forest & Happy Walks Dear Al, op 15-09-2004 21:25 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: > but I don't think you're correct.... > I have read some chapters from Abhidharma in Daily Life N: Some chapters, but what about one sentence and then ask questions about it. Some chapters I think are too much now. I call that a lot. You still seem to want to read too much at a time, and then you get needlessly discouraged. AL:My salvation may come from one practise guide I have, if I can manage to carry it out. N: Better to very gadually develop your own understanding instead of following a practise guide. Can we be sure the guide is the right one? AL: Well the Tathagata has arisen in the world, I have just yet to understand his dharma. N: Hey, that is true for all of us!!! You expressed that very beautifully, we can frame it and hang it up as a reminder: Very nice. In fact, I printed it out for myself as a reminder. AL: As it is, frankly, my mind-stream will be sinking down into the lower > realms if nothing changes. N: If you tell yourself this all the time it will work out in a negative way. Do not think of what will come, nor of the past, only the present counts. Let us understand just that. May we all have more understanding of the present moment! Nina. 36484 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner11-Introduction(h) Hello Phil, I like the part of the benefit studying bhavangas, but I like to add something. op 16-09-2004 02:10 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > How do we benefit from knowing about the bhavangas? Along with all the > other unknowable cittas that arise during, and in the case of bhavangas > between, > sense-door and mind-door processes, they point at the lack of a self behind > things. ... > This is my take. I hope others will step in if they think bhavangas are > indeed to be known > and experienced by worldlings. N: A. Sujin spoke about this. We should not say they cannot be known. It depends on insight. She said, why did he teach about this if it cannot be known. She explained: there is no object appearing, then there is, then there is not. When there is bhavangacitta, no object appears, indeed. We do not know the object of bhavangacitta that is the same as the object of rebirth-consciousness, and this again has the same object as the last javanacittas of the previous life. But the bhavangacitta itself has a characteristic. It appears in between processes. But it is of no use trying to catch it. The same goes for all the ahetuka cittas that are unknown in daily life: eventually they can be known. A. Sujin suggested this title to me. Nina. 36485 From: Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/16/04 9:28:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > Silence is different from darkness conceptually. But it can be the > same in rupas. It can be also space performing different function > due to our concept craze mind. I hope I am talking sense :) Anyway > I am speculating (it is a hunch) there are experts there who could > give u the logical explanations. Just wish to make a point that > absence is not anti-rupa and neither does it mean it is out of the 24 > rupas :) > > > Ken O > ======================== No, I don't think they differ just conceptually. They are quite different - truly different, and alike only in both being absences. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36486 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 2:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Just a passing comment on one part only about the poor man in the > operating theatre: > +++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > the conducting nerve is already blocked. > > > > The conditions are there. He has his body parts. He is conscious. > > There is touch object repeatedly tapping him. > ...+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > I'd say there are no conditions for the body consciousness vipaka cittas > to arise and experience the rupas. We know there has to be > body-sensitivity as a condition for this as well as the impact of the > rupas. This was discussed recently in a Vism segment. > > +++++++++++ Dear Sarah, Venerable Nyanatiloka wrote on a different aspect about having an operation: "Once a well-known Buddhist author, in a discussion with me, to my greatest surprise positively declared that there may be painful feeling without consciousness, for example during a painful operation whilst being under chloroform. This indeed is a most extraordinary blunder. How will it ever be possible to feel pain without being conscious of it? Painful feeling is a mental phenomenon and as such inseparable from consciousness and the other mental phenomena. If we do not perceive pain, and are not conscious of pain, how can we feel pain? Thus consciousness, feeling, perception and all the other mental phenomena are mutually conditioned by way of co-nascence." http://www.skepticfiles.org/mys5/fundamen.htm robert 36487 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:49pm Subject: Deeds of Merit - Paying respect to the Triple Gem helps in eradication of defilements Hello all More from "Deeds of Merit" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket available at http://www.zolag.co.uk/meri2.html K.S. : So long as there are defilements there will be conceit. Conceit is one type of defilement. Some people have a particular defilement to a great extent, but of other kinds of defilements they have only a slight degree. Moreover, there are coarse, medium and subtle defilements, and if one does not investigate and consider ones cittas in detail, one will not know at all the characteristic of each kind of defilement which has been accumulated from one citta to the next citta. The Buddha attained enlightenment and since he had reached the end of the cycle of birth and death, he passed away completely. However, he taught the Dhamma and the Dhamma is his successor. People who pay homage to the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, and who give expression to their respect by the investigation and the practice of the Dhamma, will eradicate defilements stage by stage, until they are all eradicated. Ph: This "give expression to their respect by the investigation and the practice of Dhamma" is very interesting. By investigation, I think K Sujin means investigation of realities, not investigation into the Buddha's teaching in a way that would enable me to form logical opinions about the meaning there using my rational mind. A moment of investigation of realities - in other words, a moment of mindfulness - is a moment of paying respect to the Buddha. That will help me to appreciate the importance of a single moment of mindfulness. Metta, Phil 36488 From: Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:52pm Subject: Vism.XIV,101 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 101. III. i. A. (b) 'Unprofitable resultant', though is without root-cause only. It is of seven kinds as (50) eye-consciousness, (51)-(54) ear-, nose-, tongue-, and body-consciousness, (55) mind-element with the function of receiving, and (56) mind-consciousness-element with the function of investigating, etc., and having five positions. It should be understood as to characteristic, etc., in the same way as the profitable resultant without root-cause (34)-(41). 36489 From: connieparker Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:06pm Subject: Re: Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Dear Sarah and Htoo, I overstated when I said kamma includes "Any volitional act, from cetana directing the cetasikas of each citta... ". Surely, the cetana involved in resultant/vipaka and kiriya/functional can't be considered kamma. Think I'll see if I can't find a UP to keep me afloat. peace, connie 36490 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 8:50pm Subject: Re: 21 questions about Buddhism Hi Catalin, Thanks for asking these really good questions. While reading Rob M's equally good answers, I thought of some possible changes and additions: ------------------- C: > > 11)If when someone dies memories(soul/Atman) also die, then how come > Buddha and others can remember past lives? > > ===== RobM: > Buddism does not accept the concept of a soul / atman. When one dies, the physical body falls away but the mind continues with another body. > ----------------------- KH: This answer could be misconstrued. It could suggest that consciousness carries over from one life to the next (or from one moment to the next). Perhaps Rob should have said, "When one dies the mind and body (nama and rupa) fall away just like they always do but, in this case, the nama and rupa of the succeeding moment will arise as the birth of a new life cycle. ---------------------------- C: > > 14)Rebirth and karma-where are the proves they exist? They don't seem > more real than the gods of ancient Greece or Santa Clauses... > It is true that every effect has a cause but there is no -------------------------- KH: If you accept that every effect has a cause, wouldn't you believe that your birth had a cause? And wouldn't you also accept that every cause has an effect? At the end of this current lifetime, there will be countless causes that have still not had their effects. For everyone except an Arahant, one of those effects will be the arising of consciousness in a new life cycle. And so there will be rebirth, and there will be the potential for all causes to have their effects. ----------------- C: > > 15)How can we trust personal experiences through meditation and other > Buddhist practices? An schizophrenic or someone who takes LSD or someone > who stayed too much in the sun may meet Santa Claus, then that means > that Santa Claus exists? ------------------------ KH: Thanks for that excellent observation. Here at dhamma-study- group, some of us are learning the original form of Buddhism in which personal experiences are not mistaken for the Way. Having lost our fascination with personal experiences, we are just trying to understand the Dhamma. ------------------------- C: > > 16)Why are sects like pure land Buddhism and nichiren Buddhism > (especially SGI) (and even left hand tantra vajrayana Buddhism) > considered as being "Buddhist"? Jainism and some Hindu sects are MUCH > closer to Buddhism than them! ------------------------------ KH: Historians can trace the spread of Buddhism and the various ways in which it has been adapted to suit cultures and religions. In my humble opinion, adaptation means adulteration, and so we should study the oldest-known form of the teaching. -------------------------------- C: > > 20)Where can I find all the pali canon for download (in English) ==== RobM: > For Theravada, I would go to "Access to Insight". I know of no good comparative site. ===== KH: I would add, "Be careful; the producers of that site believe in an eternal soul! They omit the Abhidhamma and many suttas from their translations, leaving only those parts of the Tipitaka that can be misconstrued as eternalistic." There are other good sources of English translations - as mentioned on dsg from time to time. Kind regards, Ken H 36491 From: gazita2002 Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:20pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner13-Introduction(j) Dear Sarah, I have a question, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. > ......... The realities of our life, including out > defilements, should be understood as not self. So long as we take > defilements for self or "mine" they cannot be eradicated. The direct > understanding of realities as non-self is the condition for not doing > evil, for cultivating the good and for purifying one's mind. > ***** How does this direct understanding become a condition for 'us' to do no evil, etc? It sort of makes sense to me, but as there are still defilements _surely there are still the conditions for them to arise, and do evil? no? Maybe the evil performed is a lesser degree than if no understanding. Maybe I've answered my own question!!! Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 36492 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:27pm Subject: Re: Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connieparker wrote: > I overstated when I said kamma includes "Any volitional act, from cetana > directing the cetasikas of each citta... ". Surely, the cetana involved > in resultant/vipaka and kiriya/functional can't be considered kamma. > Think I'll see if I can't find a UP to keep me afloat. Maybe I can help. In all cittas, cetana plays the role of coordinating the cetasikas: - this is cetana's only role in non-javana cittas (i.e. kiriya / vipaka) - in javana cittas, cetana also plays the role of willing (creating kamma), like a boss who directs workers and also does his share of the work as well; it is "exceedingly energetic" Metta, Rob M :-) 36493 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka. Dear Htoo and Sarah, I like the dialogies with Htoo very much. Also those with Sukin. op 16-09-2004 16:41 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Htoo: Not only disasters but also in daily ordinary life. Kamma is > too complicated to fully understand. > > Right now, you may hear something. That sound arises according to > conditions. These again have to coincide with arising vipakas in > beings. N: I find it very helpful what Htoo says: Contemplating conditions helps us not to have pictorial ideas about the impingement of sense objects on the sense-doors. What helps most is considering sound and hearing right now! > Sarah: > > At first I thought it was a rather minoracademic point, but when I > hear about people fearing the results of every little bit of lobha or > aversion or ignorance in their lives, I realize it has some important > practicality as well. Nina may also have more to add. N: Fear is no good, it adds more dosa to the latent tendencies of dosa. Rob K also wrote about the three cycles of kamma, vipaka and kilesa (defilements). This is in the Commentaries. I have to check Visuddhimagga (Ch XVII). Kamma produces a result in the form of vipaaka. We like or dislike vipaaka and this is defilement. Defilement motivates kamma and this produces vipaka and so on. We also can look in the Dispeller of Delusion, Sammohavinodani. But I also remember A. Sujin: sammalobha and visammalobha. Rob K wrote about it. Sammalobha: slight lobha, liking food, looking at trees. The countless, countless unnoticed moments of lobha after a moment of seeing right now, hearing right now. Think of all the javana cittas in the processes! Or thinking with neutral feeling: just thinking about a cup. This is usually with lobha, unless there is dana, sila or bhavana. It is sammalobha, you do not harm others. This is not the same as evil kamma. When reading about Kamma patha in the Expositor I see the specific conditions mentioned to make it a completed action. There are many degrees of kamma. Nina. 36494 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Dear Sarah, Yes, I all the time go through the T.A. to check when reading the Tiika. It helps a lot, but I have to search many different pages at different parts of the book and look at the Index. Nina. op 16-09-2004 11:19 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > Also, Nina, I’m sure you’ve seen it, but some of the same material you > are translating from the Vism Tika is covered here in ch 5 of the > commentary, such as the part about prompted and unprompted kamma and the > reflection in the mirror, p.197. 36495 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Dear Ken H, op 16-09-2004 09:48 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > > I can understand that, but I didn't realise dhammas could be known > only by their characteristics. Just to clarify: Are their > functions, manifestations and proximate causes never directly > experienced? N: Take seeing. Its function is seeing, dassana kicca. It can be directly experienced, but no need to think of function or manifestation. These are merely taught to help us to have more understanding of seeing. It is a good foundation of pariyatti to study these things. See Vis. XIV, 96. Remember: it is the falling away (departing) of the eye-door adverting consciousness (first citta in the eye-door process), that is the proximate cause. It is good to study and consider this, but when seeing appears now and there can be awareness of it, you do not think of all these words. We may think of the eyes, but that is not seeing. Still, pariyatti is most helpful. Our own wrong ideas and phantasies about seeing can be eliminated. Maybe we have some wrong pictorial ideas about visible object and the way it impinges on the eyesense. Nina. 36496 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 0:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] 21 questions about Buddhism Hi Catalin, --- Catalin wrote: > Hello, > I have a few questions about Buddhism to which I haven't found an > satisfactory answer yet. The questions are not related to each other and > > are nor sorted by importance: .... S: You've received many excellent answers from RobM, Htoo, KenH and also from Herman to one. Please let us know what you make of the responses and follow up on any of particular interest - maybe in separate threads if need be. You may also like to look at some past posts on some of the same topics (selected by the moderators) and follow any of the correspondence at the end of them: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts .... C: > I hope you will forgive my bad English and don't find any of my > questions offensive. If this is not the right place to put these > questions then I am sorry. ... S: Your English is fine and there was nothing offensive at all in your Qs. They're very welcome! ...? > PS: I chose to post to these 5 groups because from all the Buddhist > groups from Yahoo they seem most active. I again apologize if I broke > any rule but I don't know where else could I ask these questions. ... S: No rules broken here and we have quite a few;-). Catalin, besides following up or adding any further comments to the replies, please let us know a little more about yourself, such as where you live, if you feel inclined. Obviously you've been considering what you've read and heard keenly and we'll look forward to more questions. If you have time, please look at Nina's book 'Buddhism in Daily Life' or any of the other materials on these websites: http://www.vipassana.info/ http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Metta, Sarah ======== 36497 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 0:55am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Dan, Thanks for the post. It is oh so valuable to get feedback for further consideration. ================ > I see karma in the following way. With whatever intention you act in the world from time to time, so you will perceive the world to act towards you from time to time. This is a great point, Herman, and it is certainly an aspect of kamma/vipaka. Another aspect is that greed/hatred/delusion tend to produce more greed/hatred/delusion. These states are "suffering" in and of themselves. Another aspect: Suppose a tree falls on your leg. Is this because you were bad in the past? Of course! The bad actions (akusala kamma) keep "you" going, and eventually something "bad" will happen. ================ Point taken. I also thought Htoo made excellent points about famines and storms. They affect everybody. But there is no predetermined, necessary response to any event. A broken leg, hunger, damaged goods will be taken in their stride by some, and for others it will be a trigger for great aversion. The determination of what an event means, or how it is going to affect us, is always open. Nothing is good or bad in itself, until the determination/judgement is made. My opinion only, of course :-) Kind Regards Herman 36498 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is Meditation ? HI Nori, Thank you for posting the extract from Qus of King Milinda and for your interesting post (well-received as Howard said;-)). --- nori wrote: <...> > Nagasena in Questions of King Milinda (oxford `Sacred Books of the > East', T. Rhys Davids) Book V, 6: 'There are certain types of > meditation, O king, that have been made known by the Blessed One, by > him of knowledge and insight, by the Arahat, the Buddha Supreme. And > they are these. The idea of the impermanence (of every thing and of > every being), the idea of the absence of any abiding principle (any > soul in any thing or any being), the idea of the impurity and the > idea of the danger connected with the body, <...> etc ... S: I don’t have the Pali, but looking at I.B.Horner’s translation and notes, I think that ‘certain types of meditation’ refers to aarammana (objects of insight in context). Also, ‘idea’ refers to sa~n~naa, so ‘idea of the impermanence’ would be anicca-sa~n~naa I believe as object of insight. I mention this in case it is taken as a conceptual view. I also like the paragraph before the helpful one you quoted. Let me add it here. As it’s not too long, I’ll give I.B. Horner’s translation which I prefer for this passage (not on line): “In the Lord’s City of Dhamma the encircling walls are moral habit, the moats are conscience, the ramparts over the city-gates are knowledge, the watch-towers are energy, the pillars are faith, the door-keepers are mindfulness, the palace is wisdom, the cross-roads are the suttantas, the places where three or four roads meet is the Abhidhamma, the law-court is the Vinaya, the streetway is the application of mindfulness. And in the streetway of the applications of mindfulness such shops as these are offering (goods) for sale, that is to say a flower-shop, a perfume-shop, a fruit-shop, an antidote-shop, a medicine-shop, a nectar-shop, a jewel-shop and a general shop.” ***** It contiues with the description of the flower-shop you gave. All the other shops are well worth visiting: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe36/sbe3607.htm#page_212 As we’ve been discussing the Buddha’s medicines recently on DSG, let me give an extract from the medicine shop for now. This time I’ll quote from the on-line translation to save typing, putting a few notes of mine in brackets: “ 'And what, venerable Nâgasena, is the medicine bazaar of the Blessed One, the Buddha?' 'Certain medicines, O king, have been made known by the Blessed One, medicines by which he cures the whole world of gods and men. And they are these:--"The four Means of keeping oneself ready and mindful (four satipatthanas), and the fourfold Great Struggle (four right efforts), and the four Steps to Iddhi, and the five Organs of the moral sense (five indriyas or faculties), and the five moral Powers (five balas), and the seven Forms of the Wisdom (seven bhojjangas) of the Arahats, and the Noble Eightfold Path ." By these medicines the Blessed One purges men of wrong views, purges them of low aspirations, purges them of evil speaking, purges them of evil deeds, purges them of evil modes of livelihood, purges them of wrong endeavours, purges them of evil thoughts, purges them of erroneous meditation; and he gives emetics to the vomiting up of lusts, and of malice, and of dullness, and of doubt, and of self-righteousness, and of sloth of body and inertness of mind, and of shamelessness and hardness of heart, and of all evil. And this, O king, is what is called "The Blessed One's bazaar of medicine." Of all the medicines found in all the world, Many in number, various in their powers, Not one equals this medicine of the Truth (Dhamma). Drink that, O brethren. Drink, and drinking, live!” **** S: For the last line, I.B. Horner gives: “Having meditated (bhaavayitvaa) on it and seen (it you would be) quenched through the destruction of clinging.” **** > So while, it seems generally understood by many that conception and > thought, should be left out of meditation, in the above > example, "specific conceptions, and ... investigation regarding them > (those conceptions)" is well included, at least in the early stages > of development. ..... S: I’ve snipped your visit to the bazaar of gems or jewel-shop. Here various jewels are viewed, such as the jewel of moral habit, the jewel of concentration (samdhi) which you quoted, the jewel of wisdom and so on. Under the jewel or gem of samadhi, the references to “specific conceptions, and ... investigation regarding them (those conceptions)” etc refers to vitakka and vicara as included in the 1st jhana factors. ... > The way I see it it this: states of concentration, such as those > achieved through anapana, as well as other states of concentration > can develop calm (samatha) and discernment in perception when done > correctly, as well as other effects. > Meditation, as I have given in this example (i.e. investigation, > evaluation) develops wisdom and insight, that is, builds > intelligence, and dispells ignorance. .... S: Hmmm...I wouldn’t come to the the same conclusion, but this post is already too long. Maybe you’d like to post short extracts from ‘the Problem of Inference’ in order for further discussion as we’re doing with other series? There is so much helpful material in it. I think the opening paragraphs also address the issue of how we believe and accept those aspects of the Teachings not yet experienced as well. Metta and thanks, Nori. Sarah p.s Thank you for your ‘electric shock’ post too. One moment of body consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling (or not), but so many mind door cittas before and after with expectation and aversion, colouring the recollection. A good reminder for us all. ============================== 36499 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Dighanakha, --- dighanakha wrote: > Thanks for posting the valiant defence of Kunala Cuckoo's wild > generalizations. .... S: :-) ... >Though as you might have expected, there is > rather little in it that I can agree with. Nothing remarkable in > this, as it's not often that I agree with anybody about anything. .... S: !!!. You've got my interest anyway and I'm looking forward to your further comments. Plenty to discuss further. Thx for the first part. You're obviously extremely well-read in the texts and I'm intrigued by the opening colouful messages from many new members here;-). Can I persuade you to also share a little more about yourself or background, such as where you live? Metta, Sarah p.s If the name sticks, can we be given a short nickname to address you by? Thx;-) ====== 36500 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:53am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner14-Introduction(k) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Introduction [contd] ***** In the chapters which follow I shall deal with fifty two different types of cetasikas. I shall first refer to seven types of cetasikas which accompany every citta. These are the Universals. Then I shall refer to six types of cetasikas which can arise with cittas of four jatis, cittas which are kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya (neither cause nor result), but which do not accompany each citta. These are called the Particulars. After that I shall deal with the Akusala Cetasikas and finally with the Beautiful (sobhana) Cetasikas . l shall deal with sati in Chapter 26. ***** [Introduction Finished!!] Metta, Sarah ====== 36501 From: sarahprocterabbott Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: Scope and Focus (About Rupa) Hi RobM (Howard & KenH), This is a bit of an ambush post as I was away at the time and probably thought someone else would respond (ignore this if they did and I overlooked it on return): --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > You gave the example of a person not existing by drawing an analogy > of a chariot not existing (being broken into component parts). I > believe that the first time this analogy was used is in the opening > section of Milindapanha (where Nagasena meets King Milinda for the > first time); this was written about 500 years after the death of the > Buddha (i.e. this analogy is not from the Suttas). .... S: Not quite correct: SN1:10 (Vajiraa) The bhikkhuni Vajiraa replies to Maara: "Why now do you assume `a being'? Maara, is that your speculative view? This is a heap of sheer formations: Here no being is found. "Just as, with an assemblage of parts, The word `chariot' is used, So, when the aggregates exist, There is the convention `a being'. "It's only suffering that comes to be, Suffering that stands and falls away. Nothing but suffering comes to be, Nothing but suffering ceases." [BB footnote: " `suffering' signifies the inherent unsatisfactoriness of the five aggregates (pa~ncakkhandhadukkha), which is identical with `the heap of sheer formations' (suddhasa'nkhaarapu~nja)...." ***** > When I talk about early Buddhism, I am not including the Kathavatthu > (Points of Controversy) which was written 350 years after the > Buddha's death. ... S: Remember the Mattika for this text was laid down by the Buddha who forsaw events and knew when it would be the right time for it and so on, i.e only after various controversies and schisms arose. .... > My definition of early Buddhism includes the Vinaya > Pitaka, the Sutta Pitaka and the earliest six books of the > Abhidhamma Pitaka. The first six books of the Abhidhamma Pitaka > engage in an unbelievable level of analysis; mental states (cittas), > mental factors (cetasikas), material qualities (rupas), etc. But > where in these original texts does it say that this analysis is for > the purpose of differentiating what "exists" and what "does not > exist"? According to Nyanatiloka's "Manual of Buddhist Terms and > Doctrines", the word "paramattha" (ultimate reality) first appeared > in the Kathavatthu. ... S: The first book of Abhidhamma starts with detail on states that are good, bad and indeterminate (kusala, akusala, avyakata) and we continue to read in great detail, as you say about all the paramattha dhammas. Rob, these realities are exactly the same as those included in the 5 khandhas above, plus of course, nibbana which is not dukkha. When we read something like `which are the states that are good?', followed by an elaboration, we could just as easily read `which are the existing states that are good'. The meaning is identical. Your children will use slang and jargon you don't use, but that doesn't mean we should be hung up on the language when it comes to addressing the meaning of what's being said. ... > I suspect that the discussion of realities is a later addition to > Buddhism (not part of the original Buddha's teaching). This position > may evoke a strong and emotional reaction from some on DSG. I am > hoping that somebody can prove me wrong by pointing me to a textual > reference. .... S: Apologies for the delay. I was probably waiting for someone else to provide you with the reaction and textual reference;-). I can only say that for me, the entire Tipitaka and ancient Pali commentaries are a `discussion of realities'. Metta, Sarah p.s. I loved your post on `metta' (35914) and the quote from the monk to the lady who was having trouble at work: "Metta is not like some psychic lightning. Get off your cushion and put metta into action by being nice to the person with whom you are having problems." I greatly appreciate your kind replies to questions from newcomers, Rob. =========== 36502 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:46am Subject: seeing two black objects side by side Hello all Today I was sitting idling away some time with one leg crossed over the other. I saw my foot in the foreground of my field of vision, and a wastepaper basket in the background. Because of perspective, they were about the same size, and looked to be right next to each other. At the beginning, were they two visible objects, seen with different seeing processes that replaced one another in rapid alternation, or since they were so close together were they one visible object that got separated into two objects by the following processes that led to their being labeled? They were (still are) both black. Would the processes have been radically different if they were different colours? Or if they were in the same field of vision, but much further apart? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil P.S Is a question mark two visible objects or one? 36503 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theory and Practice - Eric Re: Anapanasati/ Sukin Hi Eric, Just a quick note to say I greatly enjoy your good-humoured posts and discussions with Jon, Sukin and others. I've been meaning to say this for a long time. Please continue to challenge them. You have a great way with words (loved the ‘unwrapping one’, but not handy to re-quote, so I’ll choose a couple of recent ones). --- ericlonline wrote: > I have said this already Jon. And now you are saying > person and not just monk. A change of mind maybe? Sure > takes awhile for your ship to turn around! Well, no wonder, > with all those books aboard, it must be a pretty large ship! > Consider me a tug boat of sorts. :-) ... >Sukin, please, I am saying it is both. Study and practice. I am not saying that contemplation is not needed or secondary for that matter. But when push comes to shove, you are going to have to leave all of this theorizing behind. Either you will intend to do it via meditation or death will force you! <...> Yes but the raft is not made of books! Why dont you see this? And where the raft meets the water, that has nothing to do with books! Now the books may have helped to build the raft but surely they >must be left behind on the other shore. ..... ;-) ;-) I’m also chuckling a little as little do you realize that Jon seldom has time to open his books and Sukin has told me he has a carpet of books in an upstairs room which he seldom opens either;-). Look forward to more...they’re very useful discussions between you all. Metta, Sarah ====== 36504 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:02am Subject: [dsg] Re: Scope and Focus (About Rupa) Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarahprocterabbott" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > You gave the example of a person not existing by drawing an > analogy > > of a chariot not existing (being broken into component parts). I > > believe that the first time this analogy was used is in the > opening > > section of Milindapanha (where Nagasena meets King Milinda > for the > > first time); this was written about 500 years after the death of > the > > Buddha (i.e. this analogy is not from the Suttas). > .... > S: Not quite correct: > > SN1:10 (Vajiraa) > The bhikkhuni Vajiraa replies to Maara: ===== You are correct. I took the lazy person's approach and checked the "index of similes" on "Access To Insight" and found no chariot references. (Ken H, you can add this to your list of complaints about ATI :-) ) ===== > ***** > > When I talk about early Buddhism, I am not including the > Kathavatthu > > (Points of Controversy) which was written 350 years after the > > Buddha's death. > ... > S: Remember the Mattika for this text was laid down by the > Buddha who forsaw events and knew when it would be the right > time for it and so on, i.e only after various controversies and > schisms arose. > .... ===== Not the strongest of arguments :-) :-) ===== > > My definition of early Buddhism includes the Vinaya > > Pitaka, the Sutta Pitaka and the earliest six books of the > > Abhidhamma Pitaka. The first six books of the Abhidhamma > Pitaka > > engage in an unbelievable level of analysis; mental states > (cittas), > > mental factors (cetasikas), material qualities (rupas), etc. But > > where in these original texts does it say that this analysis is for > > the purpose of differentiating what "exists" and what "does not > > exist"? According to Nyanatiloka's "Manual of Buddhist Terms > and > > Doctrines", the word "paramattha2 (ultimate reality) first > appeared > > in the Kathavatthu. > ... > S: The first book of Abhidhamma starts with detail on states that > are good, bad and indeterminate (kusala, akusala, avyakata) > and we continue to read in great detail, as you say about all the > paramattha dhammas. Rob, these realities are exactly the same > as those included in the 5 khandhas above, plus of course, > nibbana which is not dukkha. When we read something like > `which are the states that are good?', followed by an elaboration, > we could just as easily read `which are the existing states that > are good'. The meaning is identical. Your children will use slang > and jargon you don't use, but that doesn't mean we should be > hung up on the language when it comes to addressing the > meaning of what's being said. ===== Obviously the Abhidhamma (and many Suttas) are full of analysis (breaking things into parts). My point is that there are many reasons for doing analysis. I am not aware of any support for the position that the early texts did their analysis for the purpose of identifying what was real versus what was not real. When the Dhammasangani asks, "which are the states that are good", I do not interpret this as meaning "which are the ultimate realities that are good". Sarah, I hope that you can find a Sutta where the Buddha talks about realties or what exists versus what does not exist to prove me wrong. Metta, Rob M :-) 36505 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:05am Subject: Re: seeing two black objects side by side Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > Today I was sitting idling away some time with one leg crossed over the > other. I saw my foot in the foreground of my field of vision, and a > wastepaper basket in the background. Because of perspective, they were about > the same size, and looked to be right next to each other. At the beginning, > were they two visible objects, seen with different seeing processes that > replaced one another in rapid alternation, or since they were so close > together were they one visible object that got separated into two objects by > the following processes that led to their being labeled? They were (still > are) both black. Would the processes have been radically different if they > were different colours? Or if they were in the same field of vision, but > much further apart? A "visible object" is that which presents itself to the eye in a fraction of a second; like a frame of a movie film. Of course, your attention will divide the visible object and focus on one aspect (foot vs. wastepaper basket). Does this help? Metta, Rob M :-) 36506 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:28am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Scope of words Hi Sarah, ============= ... S: Remember the Mattika for this text was laid down by the Buddha who forsaw events and knew when it would be the right time for it and so on, i.e only after various controversies and schisms arose. ============= I do not think that it is possible to remember as a fact what is assumed by belief. If you wanted to make a true statement, you could say that, remember that such and such says that the Mattika for this text was laid down by the Buddha, or , remember that Theravadans generally believe that the Mattika etc. I think that if the exercise is to see things as they really are, it is essential to discern between beliefs, facts and realities in matters of convention. And despite all of that, I believe you are a gorgeous girl :-) Kind Regards Herman 36507 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:31am Subject: RE: [dsg] Flip-flopping :-) :-) Hi Herman, op 15-09-2004 01:09 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofman@t...: > I hope you and your family are well. N: Thanks, we should not complain (Dutch, in Brabant: we moge nie moppere.) > 36508 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:40am Subject: AZITA & JILL Hello Azita and Jill, If you are reading this, please check your inboxes. I need a prompt reply for accom. broker re bkk. metta, Chris 36509 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:02am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Theory and Practice _Sukin & Htoo Hi Sukin, Sorry to butt in. The H is for Herman, not Htoo :-) ============== S > Firstly, there is no control as to what concepts will be the object of citta at the moment. ============== H > I disagree if you are making a statement of fact. The Buddha described and repeated a hundred times over what states you will experience if you ever proceed to following his recommendations re jhana. It is precisely because of conditionality that these same states arise when you follow in his steps. Time and again. Without fail. It may be worthwhile to examine the aversion of the c word (control)? ================ Sukin: I don't think there can be any control as to what will be the object of citta and whether there will be right or wrong view with regard to it. Actually, I have reservation with regard to any `idealistic' attitude about developing Mahasatipatthana even in daily life. I feel this way because it can condition the idea of `self' and `control'. In a day if there is no satipatthana at all, it is good to know this, better than then following some practice and risk having a false idea of achievement and progress. ================ H > Are you unaware, even with hindsight, that your daily life is full of activity in which you are creating and maintaining your self-belief with vigour and determination? And this is preferable to any sort of activity, regardless of how highly praised by the Buddha, because a self might be hiding in it? I really have to laugh, Sukin. You are a funny fellow :-) =============== S > It is time to go and pick up my son from school. So please excuse my leaving out the rest of you post. And please keep going with this discussion. :-) ========== H > The truth is you don't *have to* do anything. But you do lots of things, because you want to. And that's fine by me. But please, don't control the car while driving, it could condition the idea of self :-) Kind regards and thanks for the laugh :-) Herman 36510 From: Catalin Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] 21 questions about Buddhism sarah about wrote: > S: You've received many excellent answers from RobM, Htoo, KenH and also > from Herman to one. Please let us know what you make of the responses and > follow up on any of particular interest - maybe in separate threads if > need be. All answers I have received on this list and other lists where very helpful. Right now I am studying the materials from the sites some pointed at and then I will study the writings from the Pali Canon and other writings considered important by various schools. I am also trying to meditate which is not very easy for me as a beginner. I am still receiving answers on these and other lists. > Catalin, besides following up or adding any further comments to the > replies, please let us know a little more about yourself, such as > where you live, if you feel inclined. I live in Romania in the city of Ploiesti. The informations I have found about Buddhism in Romania are about the existence of Vajrayana (http://www.calea-de-diamant.ro/index-en.html), Jodo Shinshu (http://www.shinbuddhism.ro/en/index.html), Zen (http://www.zen.rdsnet.ro/) and a Vipassana meditation center (http://www.meditatie.ro/ehome.htm ) but none of them existing in my city and most of them not even close. I am mostly interested in Theravada Buddhism but also teachings from other schools (like Zen and Tendai and some schools from China) seem interesting. If anyone in here knows more about Buddhism in Romania , please let me know. Thank you all for help, Catalin 36511 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: seeing two black objects side by side Hi Rob Thanks as always for your help. > A "visible object" is that which presents itself to the eye in a > fraction of a second; like a frame of a movie film. Of course, your > attention will divide the visible object and focus on one aspect > (foot vs. wastepaper basket). > > Does this help? So the initial visible object would be everything in the field of vision - to continue the movie analogy the establishing shot - and then attention would divide the whole field and start focusing on individual aspects? Such as the black colour? And then the contour (?), or other aspects of rupa that I don't know about, and then finally mental processes would put things together and come up with "shoe?" And this would be going on lickety split for everything in that one "shot", if you will? For the wastepaper basket. For the poster on the wall. For the floor. The light. You can see that I don't understand this sort of thing at all. And once it was established as "shoe", would that perception fall away every moment and have to be re-established? Is that what sanna does, maintaining comprehension of an object in a way that prevents the need to keep getting it again and again and again and....? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 36512 From: Dan D. Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Herman: "The determination of what an event means, or how it is going to affect us, is always open. Nothing is good or bad in itself, until the determination/judgement is made." The kamma/vipaka theory goes a a step further, viz. painful and pleasant physical sensations are caused by past bad/good action. It is usually not possible to trace back as far as "this bad thing caused this bad result" or "this good thing caused this good result", but, the theory goes, the pain from the tree falling on your leg is a result of your bad kamma. This is something that, in my current state of ignorance, I find hard to swallow. Dan 36513 From: Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner13-Introduction(j) Hi, Azita (and Sarah) - In a message dated 9/17/04 12:25:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gazita2002@y... writes: > Dear Sarah, > I have a question, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > >Dear Friends, > > > >Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. > > > ......... > The realities of our life, including out > >defilements, should be understood as not self. So long as we take > >defilements for self or "mine" they cannot be eradicated. The direct > >understanding of realities as non-self is the condition for not > doing > > evil, for cultivating the good and for purifying one's mind. > >***** > > > How does this direct understanding become a condition for 'us' > to do no evil, etc? > It sort of makes sense to me, but as there are still defilements > _surely there are still the conditions for them to arise, and do > evil? no? > Maybe the evil performed is a lesser degree than if no > understanding. Maybe I've answered my own question!!! ------------------------------------------------ Howard: If I may hazard a guess: The statement was not that recognizing that defilements are not-self is sufficient for their removal, but rather is *necessary* for that. It is one requisite condition, because "so long as we take defilements for self or 'mine' they cannot be eradicated" - that is, so long as they are taken as personal and intrinsic, removal is blocked. And I think that is so for clear psychological reasons - whatever is viewed as "self" is viewed as undivorcible (if that is a word ;-). ------------------------------------------------- > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36514 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:20am Subject: Re: Basic citta processes (was Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner7-Introduction(d)) Hi Rob Going back to this thread while taking a look at your book and thinking about this question that I asked before: Phil: > > As we know, akusala is much more prevalent than kusala. so let's > talk > > about that. > > So, if I'm correct, there is all this vipaka akusala rising, and > then all > > this "fresh" javana akusala > > arising? Because of proliferation, is there always much more > akusala citta > > produced in > > javanas than the akusala vipaka citta that is fed into the > process? Phil: Well, I'm looking at p.20. I read Rob's book: "if one has akusala accumulations, the javana mental states will: * cling to the object (lobha accumulations) * have aversion to the object (dosa accumulations) * be indifferent to the object ( moha accumulations) Phil: Akusala accumulations are in the citta, right? Let's say the object is a lovely Canadian flag, with its red maple leaf proudly blowing, strong and free. The lobha that has been accumulated because of other objects unrelated to the flag rises in response and causes clinging to the object? Could it be lobha that has accumulated from an unrelated object that arises in response to the Maple Leaf? Or is lobha from Maple Leaf flags in the past that has been accumulated and arises in response to a newly risen Maple Leaf flag? Are lobha accumulations specifically related to certain objects or is it just a general accumulation of lobha that clings to anything that one clings to? Sorry if that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Now, I know "natural decisive support condition" must come in here. I read on: Rob's book: "In other mental states, volition has a role of coordinating the functions of the citta and cetasikas.In the javana mental state, volition also creates kamma. The weightiness of the kamma produced depends on the strength of the volition. Natural decisive support determines the strength of the volition and therefore the weightiness of the kamma." Now I know there is disagreement within DSG about whether each volition creates kamma or not. But leaving that aside....I take it that the stronger the natural decisive support condition, the stronger the volition will be, and if it is strong enough, it will lead to kamma of deed. I might even take the flag down from its flagpole, and march down the street, waving it proudly, which is a very akusala thing to do. But short of deed, I will still proliferate. And the stronger the natural decisive support condition is, the stronger the volition will be and the more proliferation it will cause. I will proliferate a lot in response to a Canadian flag, and not so much in response to a French flag because natural decisive support condition is not nearly as strong for the latter? And all that will be decided in the javanas. I guess I'll leave it there. Am I getting closer? Metta, Phil 36515 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Dan / Herman, I hesitate to enter into this exchange because it is likely to get time consuming, but... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Herman: "The determination of what an event means, or how it is going > to affect us, is always open. Nothing is good or bad in itself, until > the determination/judgement is made." > > The kamma/vipaka theory goes a a step further, viz. painful and > pleasant physical sensations are caused by past bad/good action. It > is usually not possible to trace back as far as "this bad thing > caused this bad result" or "this good thing caused this good result", > but, the theory goes, the pain from the tree falling on your leg is a > result of your bad kamma. This is something that, in my current state > of ignorance, I find hard to swallow. Kamma does not cause a tree to fall. Trees fall because of many natural conditions but kamma is not one of them. The rupa that is sensed in the five-sense-door process has an intrinsic quality of being: - undesireable (anittha) - moderately desireable (ittha) or desireable neutral (itthamajjhatta) - extremely desireable (ati-ittha) In the case of the tree falling on the leg, the sensation of pain would be intrinsically undesireable (anittha). The intrinsic nature of the rupa will determine the type of sense-consciousness citta, the type of receiving citta and the type of investigating citta. In the case of an intrinsically undesireable rupa (the sensation of pain), the sense-consciousness citta, the receiving citta and the investigating citta will be of the "akusala vipaka" type. Note that though the citta is called "akusala" it has no ethical quality; it has no roots. Following the investigating citta is the determining citta which is functional (kiriya), not associated with kamma. The javana cittas which arise in this sense door process will depend on accumulations. In most beings, the javana cittas will be dosa-mula; resulting in bad kamma being created. In some cases, the cittas may be lobha- mula; also resulting in bad kamma being created (note: the case of lobha-mula javana cittas with an intrinsically undesireable object is a perversion of perception, sannavipallasa). A few beings will note the rupa as it truly is (anicca, dukkha, anatta) and the javana cittas will be kusala. Of course, the accumulations of a Buddha or Arahant will cause functional javana cittas to arise, not creating any kamma at all. Once this initial sense-door process has run its course, there will be hundreds of thousands of mind-door processes which mentally proliferate. In the case of the painful rupa, the mental process will likely be swept away in a stream of dosa-mula cittas. Metta, Rob M :-) 36516 From: Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is Meditation ? Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/17/04 4:47:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Thank you for posting the extract from Qus of King Milinda and for your > interesting post (well-received as Howard said;-)). > ====================== In looking back at the material, I retract the disclaimer portion of my post a bit. What I was addressing was what I considered the core of what Nagasena was putting forward - the *thinking over* of impermanance etc. I think that was his main thrust, and I take issue with that intellectual approach as a *primary* one, though I also recognize its importance as necessary support for directing the mind. However, I do realize, especially upon rereading, that there is more that was given by Nagasena. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36517 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: seeing two black objects side by side Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Hi Rob > > Thanks as always for your help. > > > A "visible object" is that which presents itself to the eye in a > > fraction of a second; like a frame of a movie film. Of course, your > > attention will divide the visible object and focus on one aspect > > (foot vs. wastepaper basket). > > > > Does this help? > > So the initial visible object would be everything in the field of vision - > to continue the movie analogy the establishing shot > - and then attention would divide the whole field and > start focusing on individual aspects? Such as the black colour? And then > the contour (?), > or other aspects of rupa that I don't know about, and then finally mental > processes would put things together and come up > with "shoe?" And this would be going on lickety split for everything in that > one "shot", if you will? For the wastepaper basket. For the poster on the > wall. For the floor. The light. > You can see that I don't understand this sort of thing at > all. > And once it was established as "shoe", would that perception fall away every > moment > and have to be re-established? Is that what sanna does, maintaining > comprehension of > an object in a way that prevents the need to keep getting it again and again > and again and....? In response to this question, I am going to ask you to look at page 23 of my book. Normally, I would write out the answer but in this case there is a nice diagram on page 23 that might help. Metta, Rob M :-) 36518 From: Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] seeing two black objects side by side Hi, Phil - In a message dated 9/17/04 5:50:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, plnao@j... writes: > P.S Is a question mark two visible objects or one? > > ========================== As I view it, a "seen" question mark is neither one visible object nor two, but is a *mental* object, constructed by mind by a complex processing of multiple visual objects and acts of sa~n~na. Each visual object, per se, takes in an entire field of vision with all its complexity, seen but unanalyzed, and other mental synthetic and analytic operations provide the rest. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36519 From: Ken O Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi Howard I think sense process can only be valid when there is sense is being contacted. To say that not seeing exist that in context only we are talking on other people experience. Just like a blind man knows he is blind because others told him they could see. In fact to him seeing is not in existence. Just like the 8NP, it exist just that only when Buddha is around, it is only known. So darkness only exist because there is no light. So there is no seeing in darkness. It is just darkness. What is darkness - to me is a concept :) Hope you can forgive my feeble attempt to explain. Nonetheless they are great questions and that is why I opened my mouth again :). I will still think of these questions again and again. Maybe one of these day I could provide u a better answer :) Till then only the six senses matter as always emphasis in the suttas and abhidhamma, other then that, I treat the rest as cocepts (these concepts are latent tendecies and the three roots want u and me to believe :)) Cheers Ken O > > > > > > Ken O > > > ======================== > No, I don't think they differ just conceptually. They are > quite > different - truly different, and alike only in both being absences. > > With metta, > Howard 36520 From: Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Scope and Focus (About Rupa) Hi, Rob (and Sarah) - In a message dated 9/17/04 6:02:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > >S: Remember the Mattika for this text was laid down by the > >Buddha who forsaw events and knew when it would be the right > >time for it and so on, i.e only after various controversies and > >schisms arose. > >.... > > ===== > > Not the strongest of arguments :-) :-) > > ======================= Well, recall that U.S. President G.W. Bush has coined the phrase 'faith-based initiative'. So, if that has the presidential imprimatur, who are we to question it?! ;-)) Sorry, Sarah - I just couldn't resist - Mara made me do it! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36521 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: seeing two black objects side by side Hi Rob > In response to this question, I am going to ask you to look at page > 23 of my book. Normally, I would write out the answer but in this > case there is a nice diagram on page 23 that might help. Very helpful chart. As I've mentioned here recently, my retention of things I read seems very low these days and I had forgotten all about it. I see that I wrote a note in the margin intending to ask you whether there were Pali terms for the "grasping the object as a whole" process, for example, and the other ones. Of course there are. I find knowing the Pali terms is very helpful in many cases. I also see I wrote "where in manual?" probably meaning where I can find this chart in the Manual of Abhidhamma? It is certainly very helpful, but these terms aren't nearly as familiar as other process words such as "adverting" and "determining" and so on. Where would "grasping the object" and "recognizing the colour" fit in with such more familiar terms as receiving, investigating, determining etc, I wonder. Are the latter sense-door terms and the former mind-door terms? Rob, I've pestered you enough tonight. Thanks so much. I'll be off now. Have a great weekend. Metta Phil 36522 From: Ken O Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Rupa does not feel without Citta - so unpleasant bodily feeling must have citta. Anyway we always forget habitual effects :). Even our bodily dont feel pain does not meant our mind does not feel it because latencies are always there. Just like a person who lost their arms always have the problem forgetting the lost arms. Just like when we know we have a terminal illness, latencies will always influence us on loss, fear, sadness even before we actually die. How do we end up like this bc of latencies and the three roots. This is another great question. Just my two cents Ken O > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > the conducting nerve is already blocked. > > > > > > The conditions are there. He has his body parts. He is > conscious. > > > There is touch object repeatedly tapping him. > > ...+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > I'd say there are no conditions for the body consciousness vipaka > > cittas > > to arise and experience the rupas. We know there has to be > > body-sensitivity as a condition for this as well as the impact of > > the > > rupas. This was discussed recently in a Vism segment. > > > > +++++++++++ > Dear Sarah, > Venerable Nyanatiloka > wrote on a different aspect about having an operation: > "Once a well-known Buddhist author, in a discussion with me, to my > greatest surprise positively declared that there may be painful > feeling without consciousness, for example during a painful > operation > whilst being under chloroform. This indeed is a most > extraordinary > blunder. How will it ever be possible to feel pain without being > conscious of it? Painful feeling is a mental phenomenon and as > such > inseparable from consciousness and the other mental phenomena. If > > we > do not perceive pain, and are not conscious of pain, how can we > feel > pain? Thus consciousness, feeling, perception and all the other > mental > phenomena are mutually conditioned by way of co-nascence." > http://www.skepticfiles.org/mys5/fundamen.htm > robert > > > 36523 From: Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi, Ken - In a message dated 9/17/04 8:50:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > I think sense process can only be valid when there is sense is being > contacted. To say that not seeing exist that in context only we are > talking on other people experience. ============================ My apologies, Ken. Could you please restate these first two sentences. I cannot grasp them. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36524 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:12am Subject: Basic citta processes (was Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner7-Introduction(d)) Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > Phil: Well, I'm looking at p.20. > I read > Rob's book: "if one has akusala accumulations, the javana mental > states will: > * cling to the object (lobha accumulations) > * have aversion to the object (dosa accumulations) > * be indifferent to the object ( moha accumulations) > > Phil: Akusala accumulations are in the citta, right? ===== Sorry, Phil. Accumulations are not in a citta. Accumulations influence the nature of citta that arises (through natural decisive support condition). ===== > Let's say the object > is a lovely Canadian flag, with its red maple leaf > proudly blowing, strong and free. The lobha that has > been accumulated because of other objects unrelated > to the flag rises in response and causes clinging to the > object? ===== To be technical, "craving" or tanha is the accumulation while "clinging" or upadana is the lobha. Updana conditions tanha through natural decisive support condition. ===== > Could it be lobha that has accumulated from an > unrelated object that > arises in response to the Maple Leaf? Or is lobha > from Maple Leaf flags in the past that has been accumulated > and arises in response to a newly risen Maple Leaf flag? ===== It works on multiple levels. When you start to meditate and watch your mind, you will notice how the mind jumps out to attach itself to any new sense data. A new sound arises and the mind rushes out like a hungry dog when it sees a bone. It chews on the bone for a bit and then gets bored. It starts looking for a new sensation to which it can attach itself. With such a restless unfocused mind, it is a miracle that we can learn anything and even pass school exams. It can't imagine how powerful the mind might be when it is not distracted! Getting back to the point... the mind craves sense objects and this causes clinging to sense objects. This is at the most basic level; it is what is meant by "sensual desire". As you can see from the diagram on page 23 of my book, the mind then grasps the object as a whole by taking multiple visible objects together. There is then a process of recognizing colour. We all know that colour has a deep primordial effect on the brain. The colour of red is perceived and there will then be craving and clinging associated with the colour red (at a slightly higher level). The next stage is to grasp and recognize the shape. The mind will be pleased when it can recognize the shape of the maple leaf (more craving and clinging at a yet slightly higher level). The mind likes to recognize things so that it can pidgeonhole things and make sense of things. When the mind recognizes the name of the shape (maple leaf), this is a condition for yet another level of craving and clinging. Now we get to the mental proliferation stage where we start thinking of the maple leaf as a symbol of our wonderful country, stirring feelings of patriotism. At this stage the craving and clinging goes through the roof! ===== > Are lobha accumulations specifically related to certain objects > or is it just a general accumulation of lobha that clings to > anything that one clings to? Sorry if that doesn't make > any sense whatsoever. ===== I think that I answered this question above. ===== > > Now, I know "natural decisive support condition" must > come in here. ===== Natural decisive support condition is what links craving to clinging. ===== > > I read on: > > Rob's book: "In other mental states, volition has a role of coordinating the > functions > of the citta and cetasikas.In the javana mental state, volition also creates > kamma. The weightiness of the > kamma produced depends on the strength of the volition. Natural decisive > support determines the > strength of the volition and therefore the weightiness of the kamma." > > Now I know there is disagreement within DSG about whether each volition > creates kamma > or not. But leaving that aside....I take it that the stronger the natural > decisive support condition, > the stronger the volition will be, and if it is strong enough, it will lead > to kamma of deed. ===== "Natural decisive support condition" describes a relationship between a conditioning state (strong past nama / rupa / concept) and a conditioned state (present nama). I think what you mean to say is that the stronger the conditioning state, the greater the impact on the conditioned state. ===== > I might > even take the flag down from its flagpole, and march down the street, waving > it proudly, which is a very akusala thing to do. ===== And I would be right there beside you, my friend... :-) ===== > But short of deed, I will still proliferate. And the stronger the natural > decisive support condition is, the stronger the volition will be > and the more proliferation it will cause. I will proliferate a lot in > response to > a Canadian flag, and not so much in response to a French flag because > natural decisive support condition is not nearly as strong for the latter? ===== Close, but not quite. See my clarifications above. ===== > And all that will be decided in the javanas. > > I guess I'll leave it there. Am I getting closer? > ===== I think so... Metta, Rob M :-) 36525 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] seeing two black objects side by side Hi Howard Thanks for your feedback. Phil> > P.S Is a question mark two visible objects or one? > > > > > ========================== > As I view it, a "seen" question mark is neither one visible object nor > two, but is a *mental* object, constructed by mind by a complex processing of > multiple visual objects and acts of sa~n~na. Each visual object, per se, > takes in an entire field of vision with all its complexity, seen but unanalyzed, > and other mental synthetic and analytic operations provide the rest. > So the questions mark isn't really there until my mind puts it together through the processes we see in the chart Rob referred to in his book. There are countless cittas experiencing visible object - multiple visual objects as you say- that are assembled by the mind processes into a recognizable shape, and labeled. Multiple acts of sanna are in there, holding together this chain of evnts so processes can move forward. This is basic stuff, I know. It's about time I applied myself to it a bit. Metta, Phil p.s I know you don't like "cittas experiencing object." Still grateful to you for having made me think about what you see as the little self/subject implication. 36526 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:17am Subject: Re: Samatha, Vipassana, Anicca...Nibbana & Discussion ( 01 ) Connie: Dear Sarah and Htoo,I overstated when I said kamma includes "Any volitional act, from cetana directing the cetasikas of each citta... ". Surely, the cetana involved in resultant/vipaka and kiriya/functional can't be considered kamma. Think I'll see if I can't find a UP to keep me afloat. peace, connie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Connie, and All, I would say kamma is cetana which accompanied 29 javana cittas in the past. In the past include time which is not now and future. These 29 cittas are 1. 12 akusala cittas 2. 8 mahakusala cittas 3. 5 rupakusala cittas 4. 4 arupakusala cittas Cetana in other cittas?? I do not know. Once I asked Nina and she said both expressions are right. These 2 expressions are 1. Kamma is cetana in past 29 jvana cittas 2. Kamma is cetana in all 89 cittas With Metta, Htoo Naing 36527 From: matt roke Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:25am Subject: [dsg] Flip-flopping Dear Dan and Nina, I hope you don't mind me contributing a thought or two. ==================== ==================== Dan> When you say, "We cannot imagine what it means to be without eye- consciousness," I beg to differ. There are many, many moments of hearing, thinking, tasting, etc. that are without eye-consciousness. Aside from word games about whether darkness is really the color black or whether it is "light dispells darkness" or "darkness dispells light", the experience of being without eye-consciousness is very common. In those moments there is no eye-consciousness, no light detected, complete darkness. ==================== All cittas are *dark* with the exception of the *light* cittas that experiences visible object. That means there are an amazing number of *dark* cittas in between the *light* cittas. And yet it seems as though there is seeing all the time without any gaps; visible object without anything in between. We can interlectually appreciate that there are numerous *dark* cittas in between *light* cittas but are we experiencing them? I sit here with visible object, sound, touch and thinking etc., arising and falling away. So many *dark* cittas and so few *light* cittas and yet I only experience the latter. ======================= ======================= Nina> As I said to Larry, it is such a good reminder, all those dark moments. ======================= If *the experience of being without eye-consciousness is very common* then we would not need to be reminded of them. ======================= ======================= Nina> "We cannot imagine what it means to be without eye-consciousness," ======================= I agree. When there is eye-consciousness there is not only an idea of seeing being ever present there is also a constant flow of thinking of objects that have been experienced through the eye door. Even if we were to go into a pitch black cave we would still not understand what it is like to be without eye-consciousness because there would still be concepts of a visible world outside the cave. MattR 36528 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:27am Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism ( 05 ) Dear Catalin and All, This is the 5th reply post to Catalin's 21 questions. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 9) What is the difference between "attaining nirvana", "attaining buddhahood","becoming an arahat" and "attaining enlightment"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Attaining nibbana is a final cessation. Attaining nirodha samapatti is a temporary cessation. Attaining arahatta magga nana is achievement of panna or wisdom how to transcend lokas including this world. Attaining Buddhahood is becoming the first arahat in loka. As he is very first, he can teach all how to be on the right path. Becoming arahat means becoming wise to transcend loka. He will one day in final cessation. Attaining enlightenment is attaining arahatta magga nana that is attainment of wisdom how to transcend loka. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 10)If a person (like Buddha) attains nirvana then we does he keep having desires like eating, breathing, desiring to teach and help others, etc.? Shouldn't he just disappear or die when he reaches nirvana? And how can someone reach nirvana without the DESIRE and CRAVING to reach nirvana and the DESIRE and CRAVING to escape DESIRE and CRAVING? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Question is not clear. But, if you means why The Buddha had desires like eating, breathing, to teach and to help others, etc etc, this is very simple. Your word desire is not a good word to expound Dhamma. Dhamma here means reality. There is a reality that just wish and no attachment. This is called chanda. This is a powerful mental factor. This is the chief that push the Buddha-to-be Sumedho Hermit to practise to become a Sammasambuddha. This is not attachment. This is not lobha. Your question reveals that you are not fully aware of existing dhamma as they are. Desire and craving are different. Quite different. Totally different. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36529 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:25am Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism ( 04 ) Dear Catalin and All, This post is the 4th reply post to your 21 questions. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 7)How can different ENLIGHTENED persons have different opinions about what the truth is and what is the best path to get there? If someone really becomes enlightened shouldn't he be able to see which one of the schools of Buddhism is the right one and guide people there? And how can enlightened people see the world in different ways when they should know the same truth? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here you need to define 'ENLIGHTENED' persons. There is single truth and a single path. So your later part of question is not right to mention like that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 8)In Mahayana people take vows not to obtain nirvana and help other first...how can someone help someone else attain something that he doesn't have and he doesn't actually experienced for himself that the path he teaches is the good path? This reminds me about "If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit." Isn't a better way to first attain nirvana like Buddha did and AFTER that help others? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are people who are fully enlightened. They do show the way as they walked. I am not clear of what you are talking about 2 blind men. Maybe you had approached a blind man in your experience. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36530 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:27am Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism ( 06 ) To continue: Catalin: 11)If when someone dies memories(soul/Atman) also die, then how come Buddha and others can remember past lives? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This question just reveal that there is a strong wrong view. There are wrong views. Major wrong views are sassata ditthi and uccheda ditthi. The first is the view of eternity. This leads you that there is a soul, an Atman, memories. That soul leaves when a body dies and soul is permanent. The second view is that there is nothing after death. Because he thinks that there is no results of what he have done in this life and past lives. Based on this last view he may commit utterly wicked sins and unwholesome actions of everything imaginable. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 12)How can a Lama know the future and predict where he will be reborn? Knowing future=no free will... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know Lama. There are people who know the future. This is according to things as they are and not of a miraculos things. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36531 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: seeing two black objects side by side Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > In response to this question, I am going to ask you to look at page > > 23 of my book. Normally, I would write out the answer but in this > > case there is a nice diagram on page 23 that might help. > > Very helpful chart. As I've mentioned here recently, > my retention of things I read seems very low these days > and I had forgotten all about it. I see that I wrote a note > in the margin intending to ask you whether there > were Pali terms for the "grasping the object as a whole" process, for > example, > and the other ones. Of course there are. I find knowing the Pali > terms is very helpful in many cases. I also see I wrote "where > in manual?" probably meaning where I can find this chart in > the Manual of Abhidhamma? It is certainly very helpful, but these > terms aren't nearly as familiar as other process words such as > "adverting" and "determining" and so on. Where would "grasping the object" > and "recognizing the > colour" fit in with such more familiar terms as receiving, investigating, > determining etc, I wonder. > Are the latter sense-door terms and the former mind-door terms? See p164 of BB's CMA: - Conformational process is called tad-anuvattaka manodvaraka-vithi - "Grasping the object as a whole" is samudayagahika - "Recognizing the colour" is vannasallakkhana - "Grasping the shape" is vatthugahika - "Recognizing the shape" is vatthusallakkhana - "Grasping the name" is namagahika - "Recognizing the name" is namasallakkhana The conformational process is a single process but the rest of the designations can represent hundreds of thousands of mind-door processes. Metta, Rob M :-) 36532 From: Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] seeing two black objects side by side Hi, Phil - In a message dated 9/17/04 9:19:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, plnao@j... writes: > So the questions mark isn't really there until my mind puts it together > through the processes we see in the chart Rob referred to in his book. > There are countless cittas experiencing visible object - multiple visual > objects as you say- that are assembled by the > mind processes into a recognizable shape, and labeled. Multiple acts of > sanna are in there, holding together this > chain of evnts so processes can move forward. This is basic stuff, I know. > It's about time I applied myself to it a bit. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I think the foregoing is correct. The question mark per se is not "there" at first. However, balancing the picture: The internal structure of the visual content is a basis - it is there "waiting" for analysis. The internal relations are there awaiting potential bringing out by mental processing. Our recognition of patterns is not baseless, it is not created out of whole cloth, as the saying goes. A perspective of arbitrariness and completely ungrounded imposition of structure, ignoring the reality of relations and relational patterns, would be another extreme I believe. --------------------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > Phil > p.s I know you don't like "cittas experiencing object." Still grateful to > you for having made me think about what you see as the little self/subject > implication. > > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36533 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:16am Subject: Re: What is Meditation ? Dear Nori and all --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > Hi Dhamma Friends, > > When most people sit for meditation, I think most people will perform > Anapana of some sort, or the various forms of Vipassana. > Nikayas, but is, when explicated, different from the general > agreement of what meditation actually is. > His definition of meditation is partly this: > A sustained and directed investigation into a chosen aspect of our > nature and reality. > This, I believe, includes processes of directed thought and > reflection (i.e. investigation and evaluation), in addition to direct observation. > Hallo Nori and all This summer we had a retreat given by a Birmese Abhidhamma master and many times het used the term 'contemplation'. Our (dutch Theravadin) understanding of it was that it is something else than vipassana (mindfullnes) or samatha (absorption, jhanas). It is thinking about a (Dhamma-)text, thinking so the text had not to work like a 'mantra' in Tibetan meditations; it's not 'free thinking', the thinking is 'confined' in the text and I had to do it without getting an opinion. I think the 'method' you are talking about can best be described with the term CONTEMPLATION. Other members of this DSG are better equipped to translate this thinking-meditation-contemplation process in terms of the Abhidhamma psychology (as far as the Abhidhamma is a psychology). To give an example I think of the contemplations of Nyanaponika about the Four Brahmavihara's. I quote the first one, about metta (he translates it with 'love', I prefer 'loving kindness') "Love, without desire to possess, knowing well that in the ultimate sense there is no possession and no possessor: this is the highest love. Love, without speaking and thinking of "I," knowing well that this so- called "I" is a mere delusion. Love, without selecting and excluding, knowing well that to do so means to create love's own contrasts: dislike, aversion and hatred. Love, embracing all beings: small and great, far and near, be it on earth, in the water or in the air. Love, embracing impartially all sentient beings, and not only those who are useful, pleasing or amusing to us. Love, embracing all beings, be they noble-minded or low-minded, good or evil. The noble and the good are embraced because Love is flowing to them spontaneously. The low-minded and evil-minded are included because they are those who are most in need of Love. In many of them the seed of goodness may have died merely because warmth was lacking for its growth, because it perished from cold in a loveless world. Love, embracing all beings, knowing well that we all are fellow wayfarers through this round of existence -- that we all are overcome by the same law of suffering. Love, but not the sensuous fire that burns, scorches and tortures, that inflicts more wounds than it cures -- flaring up now, at the next moment being extinguished, leaving behind more coldness and loneliness than was felt before. Rather, Love that lies like a soft but firm hand on the ailing beings, ever unchanged in its sympathy, without wavering, unconcerned with any response it meets. Love that is comforting coolness to those who burn with the fire of suffering and passion; that is life-giving warmth to those abandoned in the cold desert of loneliness, to those who are shivering in the frost of a loveless world; to those whose hearts have become as if empty and dry by the repeated calls for help, by deepest despair. Love, that is a sublime nobility of heart and intellect which knows, understands and is ready to help. Love, that is strength and gives strength: this is the highest Love. Love, which by the Enlightened One was named the liberation of the heart, the most sublime beauty: this is the highest Love. And what is the highest manifestation of Love? To show to the world the path leading to the end of suffering, the path pointed out, trodden, and realized to perfection by Him, the Exalted One, the Buddha." Metta Joop 36534 From: ericlonline Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:58am Subject: [dsg] Theory and Practice - Sarah Hey Sarah, :-) S> Just a quick note to say I greatly enjoy your good-humoured posts and discussions with Jon, Sukin and others. I've been meaning to say this for a long time. Please continue to challenge them. You have a great way with words (loved the `unwrapping one', but not handy to re-quote, so I'll choose a couple of recent ones). You are too kind Sarah. S> I'm also chuckling a little as little do you realize that Jon seldom has time to open his books and Sukin has told me he has a carpet of books in an upstairs room which he seldom opens either;-). You mean they have memorized all this arcane stuff! A virtual bookstore in their minds. No wonder they have no time to meditate, all the filing they have to do in their virtual libraries. ;-) PEACE E 36535 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 9:46am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 064 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, When in the 4th arupa jhana or in n'evasanna-nasanna-yatana jhana, citta in that jhana is so subtle to be recognised. This jhana seems to be the highest of all states of mind. Because it is free of any akusala and defilements and it is very still. However, as in cases of other jhana cittas, when this jhana is put into training to become much much more proficient by contemplating, accessing, determining, emerging, scrutinising, there may be found that this 4th arupa jhana is also not a good one as it is close to the 3rd arupa jhana akincinnayatana jhana. Even though this jhana is the highest and still like a stone, in real it is not steady because it is close to akincinnayatana jhana and this again may step down and down and down till to the bottom. There is weakness in this citta, in this jhana. There does exist weakness in this jhana. But even though there is weakness, jhanas are free of defilements at least temporarily. So it is a good idea to train jhanas to be proficient. After completion of proficiency training, each jhana is assessed and scrutinised one after another. As been in jhanas, cittas are pure. Cittas and their arammana or objects are examined one after another. All ajjhatta dhammas are checked one after another. Then all bahiddha dhammas are checked one after another. As been in jhanas in and out, there is a complete pureness in moral conduct and complete pureness of cittas are also seen. After checking inside and outside dhammas, there notices that there are feelings and these feelings are not the same in each of jhana cittas. These feelings are not the same ones even in the same jhana. These feelings are not separate dhammas but they arise with each arising citta. Cittas are seen along their illusionary path. As cittas are seen, their properties or their arammanas are also seen. Some properties are close to mind and easy to understand while others are not. Some are rough and some are subtle. They have different qualities. Even though they each have their distinctive qualities, they do not last and they are actually vanishing. There are nama dhamma and there are rupa dhamma and they are seen separately even though they seem mixed and difficult to separate out. There are not arising without reasons but as they do have causes they have to arise. Even though they arise, they vanish very rapidly. Their vanishing is so rapid that they all seem to be just vanishing. As everything is disappearing all the time, it is really frightening. It does not worth to live in the mid of such shocking things. These things are dispassionated and disregarded. It becomes needed to be liberated from such essenceless things. Apart from dispassionating and disregarding, there is nothing to do with them and no need to respond them and they are not worthy to interact and they are not worthy to deal with. There arises strong dispassion and this dispassion makes the things to be detached. There is continuous mindfulness working. The effort is disregarding all past bad-doing as it is forwarding to dispassion. Continuous mindfulness with thorough investigation definitely stop further bad- doing. Good minds are being developed and already developed things are being put into proficiency. There is complete stillness. This stillness is accompanied by a strong will and deep wisdom. The Path becomes clearer. There arises a good faith. As Path is clearly seen, there is no disturbance. The continuous mindfullness feeds the deep wisdom who is investigating into all dhammas. Unlike the joy in former jhanas there arise distinctive joy and this rejoices and freshens all the time. There is complete calm and free of worry. There will not withdraw or withhold at this stage. The stillness is more than stone more than mountain. These come in balance. The Path is clear and as on the Path, there is none that goes wrong. There is clear idea, clear thought and these make meaningful actions and through this Path as there are all necessary things already, there arises up to the peak and at the peak there is a complete dispassion and bad things are dropped and there is an absolute peace just seen. Defiles are seen and understood. But these have been there in the samsara for a long time and their clearance cannot be done at a single moment. So they have to be clear away and wipe out repeatedly. With repeated voiding, finally there left none. As soon as none as defilement left, the mind becomes the purest one ever. As there exist defilement for indefinite time, they are to be cleared away with 4 stages of clearing. Here magga nanas clear away step by step. Nibbana or nirvana means no binding. Nirvana = ni + vana. Ni means no, not and vana means tie, bind. So nibbana is total unbinding. Nibbana is dimensionless and timeless and without any space. It is free from space and time. So those who fuse into nibbana are totally and completely released and liberated from avijja and tanha or craving. Rivers are a large collection of water flowing into ocean. Once in the river, the flow takes those in the river to the ocean. Nibbana is like ocean and it is more than ocean. Initial arrivers who see nibbana for the first time are said to be in the flow. Sota means the flow of river. Aapatti means 'to reach'. Sotaapatti means 'to reach the flow of river'. That is to the ocean nibbana. There arise the 1st magga citta when there is a clear Path made up eight components. This 1st magga citta in its full name is called 'sotaapatti magga kusala citta'. It is 82nd citta of 89 cittas in total. It is lokuttara kusala a citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36537 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 10:06am Subject: The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no 13. The Removal of Distracting Thoughts, no 13. Sutta: ...that bhikkhu is called a master of the paths along which thoughts travel. The thought he wants to think, that, he thinks; the thought he does not want to think, that, he does not think. He has cut down craving, removed the fetter, rightly mastered pride, and made an end of suffering." The Blessed One said this, and the bhikkhus glad at heart, approved of his words. ***** The Commentary states that he has become most skillful as to the course of his thoughts and that the Buddha herewith wanted to show the characteristic of such skill. Formerly this bhikkhu did not have the thoughts he wished to have, and those he did not wish to have arose. But since he had become skilled it is different: what he wants to think of, he thinks of, and what he does not want to think of he does not think of. He has eradicated conceit. The Co. refers to the Discourse on all the Cankers (M.N. no 2). N: The arahat has eradicated conceit and all other defilements. The arahat has no more conditions for akusala cittas. Instead of kusala cittas he has kiriyacittas (inoperative cittas) accompanied by sobhana cetasikas (beautiful mental factors). When we are thinking, the javanacittas in a process are kusala cittas or akusala cittas, but more often akusala cittas. Even when we have wholesome thoughts, there are likely to be many akusala cittas arising shortly after the kusala cittas. We tend to take akusala and kusala for self. The arahat has no conditions to be infatuated or distracted by akusala cittas. He is not troubled by restlessness, worry or doubt. However, he had to go a long way and needed patience and perseverance to fully develop paññaa. The bhikkhu in this sutta had to use all available means and finally he had to have heroic fortitude to attain arahatship. In each Sutta satipatthana is implied, because through satipatthana, the development of vipassana, the truth of anatta can be realized.The teaching of anatta is exclusively the Buddha¹s teaching. That is why the Commentary emphasizes the development of vipassana time and again. The goal is the eradication of all defilements, but the wrong view of self has to be eradicated first. We are thinking with lobha, attachment, dosa, aversion and moha, ignorance, because these unwholesome roots have not been eradicated. The Buddha explained several ways of abandoning unwholesome thinking by wholesome thinking. However, we should realize that there is no self who can be master of his thoughts. We can learn this by the development of understanding of naama and ruupa, by the development of insight. If we develop conditions for kusala without satipatthana we still have the wrong view of my akusala and my kusala. We may think of the akusala citta that has fallen away and worry about it. But, how can that which falls away immediately be self or mine? As was taught in the story about the frightened rabbit, the Bodhisatta who was the King of the Lions said to the rabbit not to be afraid, and to find out the real cause of his fear. Evenso the bhikkhu had to go to the root of his defilements. When we learn that akusala is a conditioned naama devoid of self, it can be faced with insight, we should not be afraid of it. Even though we are full of defilements there is a way to reach the goal. It is paññaa that sees the disadvantage and danger of all akusala, wrong view included, and the benefit of kusala. This Sutta and Commentary can encourage all of us in our long journey towards the end of the cycle of birth and death. The good counsels the Buddha gave with great kindness and compassion to the monk can be applied by all those who develop the eightfold Path, each in his own situation. We can gain confidence that the development of insight eventually leads to the end of defilements. But we have to begin at this moment. ***** (The end) Nina. 36538 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 10:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit - Paying respect to the Triple Gem helps in eradication of defilements Hi Phil, While paying homage at the holy places in India we can remember the highest way of respect to him, also while expressing our reverence by body and speech. There are nama and rupa appearing also at such moments. Otherwise the paying of respect, the kusala citta, is . In that case the wrong view of self will not wear out. Of course, we should not try to be aware with an idea of self. This is always around the corner. But it is good to know this. Nina. op 17-09-2004 00:49 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > A moment of investigation of > realities - in other words, a moment of mindfulness - is a moment of paying > respect to the Buddha. That will help me to appreciate the importance of a > single moment of mindfulness. > 36539 From: ericlonline Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 10:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] 21 questions about Buddhism Hey Catalin (and Sarah), C> ...Right now I am studying the materials from the sites some pointed at and then I will study the writings from the Pali Canon and other writings considered important by various schools. I am also trying to meditate which is not very easy for me as a beginner. Follow the threads that your understanding finds to the end and you will do just fine. Dont worry about meditation, it is hard even for those who have done it for awhile. But you hit on something here. It is so easy to read and conceptualize. It is very difficult to sit and forget who you are and what you want. That is why many here do not meditate. If they succeed they lose their self and their Matrix of theories and if they fail... well, who wants to continually fail! It seems so much more pleasant to dream a life as a Buddhist then awaken and be Buddha. PEACE E 36540 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Theory and Practice _Sukin & Htoo & Herman Herman: Hi Sukin, Sorry to butt in. The H is for Herman, not Htoo :-) ============== S: Firstly, there is no control as to what concepts will be the object of citta at the moment. ============== Herman: I disagree if you are making a statement of fact. The Buddha described and repeated a hundred times over what states you will experience if you ever proceed to following his recommendations re jhana. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Htoo: Herman is right Sukin. Herman you are right, here. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Herman:It is precisely because of conditionality that these same states arise when you follow in his steps. Time and again. Without fail. It may be worthwhile to examine the aversion of the c word (control)? ================ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Htoo: Beautiful idea. If water is heated to 100 degrees Centigrade, it boils. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sukin:I don't think there can be any control as to what will be the object of citta and whether there will be right or wrong view with regard to it. Actually, I have reservation with regard to any `idealistic' attitude about developing Mahasatipatthana even in daily life. I feel this way because it can condition the idea of `self' and `control'. In a day if there is no satipatthana at all, it is good to know this, better than then following some practice and risk having a false idea of achievement and progress. ====================================================================== Herman: Are you unaware, even with hindsight, that your daily life is full of activity in which you are creating and maintaining your self- belief with vigour and determination? And this is preferable to any sort of activity, regardless of how highly praised by the Buddha, because a self might be hiding in it? I really have to laugh, Sukin. You are a funny fellow :-) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Htoo: Sukin is not funny. But you Herman is really funny. When I saw your post to Sukin, my satipatthana gone away for a moment and instead funny feeling arose. It last 20 seconds. :-)) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ =============== S: It is time to go and pick up my son from school. So please excuse my leaving out the rest of you post. And please keep going with this discussion. :-) ========== H : The truth is you don't *have to* do anything. But you do lots of things, because you want to. And that's fine by me. But please, don't control the car while driving, it could condition the idea of self :-) Kind regards and thanks for the laugh :-) Herman ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Htoo: I will be looking forward to hearing Sukin. When I typed this post, I did not control anything. But nama and rupa arose and fell away. :-)) With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36541 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:58pm Subject: Re: 21 questions about Buddhism --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: Dont worry about meditation, it is hard even for those who have done it for awhile.But you hit on something here. It is so easy to read and conceptualize. It is very difficult to sit and forget who you are and what you want. That is why many here do not meditate. If they succeed they lose their self and their Matrix of ..snip..then awaken and be Buddha. PEACE E ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear E, Who here do not meditate? Why? Is that because of your that is? Htoo Naing 36542 From: Andrew Levin Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:15pm Subject: OK, Abhidharma Hi, This message is direction towards anyone who can answer and especially Nina who is capable and helpful towards us all. Regarding Chapter four of Nina's 'Abhidharma in Daily Life,' There is craving in the lobha-mula-cittas. How do we eradicate this lobha, this craving. I was told previously that mere recognition of the citta can decrease its bearing on the mind. But how are we to root out the craving. Is it the same for craving? From my current understanding, only when we are seeing things in the present as impermanent and selfless will there be no craving present. Please correct me if this is not the case. Next, is wrong views. This is something that captures my interest. The book I am trying to practise out of, a commentary on the Maha-satipatthana sutta, states that we need knowledge of Abhidharma for the third foundation of mindfulness, that is, contemplation of mind. Now I have felt that I could recognize one of these wrong views, ditthis, as it arose in me. If I could recognize which citta it accompanied, even better (this should happen as I memorize the different types of citta). But how am I to know which wrong view it is, ie an eternal self wrong view (further, does this eternal self wrong view hold that the body is a self, or does it apply to all phenomenon?), the annihilation self view, and wrong view about kamma and vipaka, thinking purification can come about through rites and rituals. Especially the last one, I wouldnt be able to recognize that such a wrong view was present in my mind. Can we know it just by its characteristics, I mean, there is nothing in particular jumping out saying "Here I am, wrong view, that doesn't believe in the power of karma", there is just a ditthi present, that's all. And also, perhaps my knowledge of this would increase when I get to a more advanced place in the book, does absence of wrong view indicate right view is present? I wouldn't think so. So how do we go about instilling right view in ourselves? For instance, the Buddha has said right view is 'undistorted vision' of the existence of this world, the next, of preist and contemplatives who have discovered this, of fruits and results of good and bad actions, and things of that nature. There is also the wrong view of seeing 'self' in things. The latter type can be annihilated through meditation, I believe, but that only works to an extent on the former. I have had experiences in my meditation that have given me pretty good confidence that there is a next world, but the rest of it is lacking. I have heard it said that we can straighten our views by questioning monks and reading good dhamma books, but I plainly don't see how this is the case. It seems to me it should be experiential, ie, when you give, you should know that there is something given, you should know there is mother and father. Frankly, I don't see how a discussion with a preist could instill vision within someone of the next world. Confidence, maybe, but this is more similar to my mere logical view "There is fruit and result of good and bad actions," which is not in fact vision but only memorized from scripture. So, straightening wrong views is a topic that I'd like to hear more about, and I'd also like to learn about the nature of views, right or wrong, themselves. Thanks guys, andrew levin 36543 From: dighanakha Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:15pm Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hello Sarah, Continuing again, with apologies for the delay. At the beginning of your post your expressed bemusement at the term 'fundamentalist'. As I keep referring to the dsg hardcore by this term I think I should define what I mean by it. I would not like you to think that I'm calling you a bunch of nitwits or Al Qaida terrorists or something. For future reference, this is what I have in mind: "One who affirms a religious textual authority as holistic and absolute, admitting of neither criticism nor reduction, and to be interpreted only literally." S > We can find a summary of the full story at this link: S > http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/ku/kunaala_jat_536.htm S > Kunala Jataka (No.536) But it would be better to read the original (that is, if one feels a need to read it at all) since there are inaccuracies in the summary. S > Here is part of it: S > Kunala, king of the Citrakokilas, though well served by his S > hen birds, always despised them and found fault with them. S > The king of the Phussakokilas, Punnamukha, on the other S > hand, always sang the praises of his escort. One day the two S > kings met, and Punnamukha asked Kunala why he was not more S > gracious to his ladies. "Because I know too much about S > women," was the answer; but Punnamakha was not in a mood to S > discuss the matter any more. This is the actual exchange: Punnamukha: "Why do you, friend Kunala, behave so ill to these high-born ladies of rank, though they themselves are well-conducted. One ought, friend Kunala, to speak pleasantly even to ladies who are themselves ungracious in speech: much more so to those who are gracious." [When he had so spoken, Kunala abused Punnamukha after this manner, saying...] Kunala: "Perish vile wretch, yea, perish utterly. Who is to be found like you, won over by the prayers of womenfolk?" [on being thus reproached the cuckoo Punnamukha turned back] ___________________________ Which of the cuckoos' views best accords with the Sutta's teaching on right speech and on a man's proper conduct towards his wife? S > Later, Punnamukha fell ill, and his hen birds deserted him S > and came to Kunala. He drove them away, ministered to S > Punnamukha, and cheered him. No. This does an injustice to the cuckoo hens. When Punnamukha fell ill, the cuckoo hens flew to Kunala *to get help* ("This cuckoo is ill, peradventure he may be raised up from his sickness..."), not to desert him. Kunala then abused the hens and drove them away because this was just the way he thought all females should be treated. S > Some time after, Kunala, seated on the Manosilatala in S > Himava (according to Buddhaghosa, D.ii.675, this was on the S > banks of the Kunaladaha), started to tell his friend of the S > wickedness of women. Hearing of this, many inhabitants of S > numerous worlds came to listen to him, among them Ananda, S > king of the vultures, and the ascetic Narada. Though it's not very important, this also is not quite correct. It makes it sound like he was just informally chatting with his friends and then a bunch of others showed up. But as I mentioned the other day, the talk is depicted as one that was preceded by heavenly proclamations, the gathering of a grandiose assembly etc. S > Many were the instances given by Kunala to illustrate the S > deceitfulness, ingratitude and immorality of women. S > Kunala's diatribe was followed by Ananda's, and his by S > Narada's, each claiming to speak from facts within their S > knowledge. S > In the stories related by Kunala, the bird-king is S > identified with one of the characters concerned in each S > story, so that he was able to speak with authority. This S > Jataka was related in order to destroy the discontent that S > rose in the hearts of the Sakiyan youths, kinsmen of the S > Buddha, who, having entered the Order, were troubled by the S > thought of the wives they had left behind. The Buddha S > therefore took them to the Himalaya, showed them the S > magnificent beauty of the region, particularly the S > miraculous splendours of the Kunaladaha, and there preached S > to them. At the end of the Jataka they all became arahants. S > We are told that that very day they became arahants S > (J.v.412-56; also DA.ii.674ff; AA.i.173). S: I think it's important to note: S: 1) the Jataka verses and introductions carry little or no S: meaning without the Jataka commentary stories to which they S: refer. This seems a little over-stated to me. I would say that there are some Jataka verses which make no sense at all without the accompanying story, some which do make sense but might easily be misconstrued when separated from their context, and then others which are perfectly self-contained, rather like the verses of the Dhammapada. I think the ancient theras would agree with me here. They were using isolated Jataka verses to illustrate points as far back as the Kathavatthu and Petakopadesa. You recently gave us a link to one -- the Amara Dialogue from the Milindapanha. The Milinda is rich in out-of-context Jataka verses. [I've snipped the next couple of points, as I don't have anything to add to what Howard has said] S > 4) Indeed we don't need to wait til Jataka 536 to read about S > the foolishness of men. We can just open the texts at the S > very first Jataka (no 1) to read about truly foolish men who S > were taken by Anathapindika to listen to the Buddha who in S > the `thunderous tones as of a young lion roaring......in a S > voice of eightfold perfection, the charm of which ravished S > the ear, he preached to them the Truth in a discourse full S > of sweetness and bright with varied beauty." The men `rose S > up with hearts converted', threw away their other doctrines, S > took refuge in the Buddha, kept sila and the precepts and so S > on. But as soon as the Buddha left Savatthi, they returned S > to their old ideas and teachers. There is little to match S > the foolishness of such acts in my view. In previous lives S > it was the same. This isn't remotely analogous to the Kunala Jataka. They were men who abandoned the Buddha's Dhamma and Vinaya. There's no suggestion that they did so *because* they were men. S > Indeed the entire Tipitaka is full of tales about the S > foolishness and madness of wordlings -men and women. Nothing S > sexist about it, as Connie said. Connie suggested that it was "gender-irrelevant", citing the line: "Trust not a king because thou thinkst, 'My comrade once was he'". But the advice is that we proceed with caution because he's a king, not because he's a man. So it really won't suffice to establish gender-irrelevance. Perhaps I ought to state the reasons for which I describe the Jataka collection as being riddled with misogyny: If you have a printed edition of Cowell's translation look up "women" in the index and you'll find half a column of entries. Look up "man" or "men" and you will find none at all. This is not an oversight on the part of the editor. No entries for men are needed because there is not even one Jataka, or one part of a Jataka or even one stanza of a Jataka dealing with the subject of men per se, or men qua men; only with certain individual men. But as I mentioned in another post there are dozens dealing with the characteristics (invariably negative) that we should expect to encounter in women. When the Jataka stories depict a foolish or evil man, they depict him as a fool or a knave who happen to be male. His maleness is NEVER the issue, except in the stories where it predisposes him to lust after women. But the foolish or evil woman in the Jatakas is very often presented as being foolish or evil *because* she's a woman. The men are always INDIVIDUALS; the women are quite frequently TYPES, representatives of women in general. And the behaviour of certain *individual* evil women narrated in the prose is then asserted in the verses to be what we should expect of women in general. The moral lesson drawn from Jatakas about evil men usually consists of a recommendation to avoid some particular vice or folly. The moral lesson drawn from Jatakas about evil women very often consists of a recommendation to avoid (distrust, disbelieve shun etc.) women in general. I do not see how anyone could read the Jatakas with an open mind and fail to notice that the treatment of the sexes is totally asymmetrical. To see for yourself I suggest you read Volume V, which for some reason (maybe the scribe had colic?) has the greatest concentration of these woman-hating Jatakas. S> I got quite lost in all the details of the Kunala Jataka and S> commentaries (partly because I was watching the news while I S> looked at it;-), but I take these as good reminders of how S> dangerous and powerful anusaya (latent tendencies) are in both S> men and women and how precious is the opportunity to develop S> wisdom with detachment now. Otherwise we just continue endlessly S> in Samsara in our foolish ways, even if some of these tendencies S> are not so very obvious in this life. Hmmm. Well I guess that's one way one might take it. I was paying more attention to what the cuckoo was advising us to do. Here's a summary of his advice (from the verses only). FOR MEN: Beware of women. Never trust your wife to go to the house of a (male) friend. Don't credit anything they say. Don't cultivate the acquaintance of women who are intelligent, nor those who are attractive, popular, married, or parasitical. Don't trust a woman because you think she likes you, nor because she is given to crying in your presence. Don't trust a woman even if you have had ten children with her. Once you understand what women are really like, flee from all of them. Shun women everywhere. FOR WOMEN Drop dead! (nassatha) Go to hell! (vinassatha) Dig >> And was the cuckoo Kunala (the Bodhisatta) right in advising Dig >> that we not credit anything a woman says? S> Certainly in this example;-): S> 'Later, Punnamukha fell ill, and his hen birds deserted him S> and came to Kunala. He drove them away, ministered to S> Punnamukha, and cheered him.' Certainly not in this example ;-) As mentioned above, the summary you cite is a baseless calumny on the hens' good intentions. Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me.' (Diighanakha Sutta) 36544 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:43pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi everyone, Just a general post re seeing colour and brightness. It is not a reply to anyone or anything specific. Anapanasati is a great thing to do. You take a seemingly simple thing like breathing and discover that it is such a complex web of events that defy description. The same can be done with seeing. Some things that you can observe when practicing sati of seeing. There are two eyes. The eyes have lids. They can be closed and opened independently in degrees, with and without awareness of volition. They can be focused and unfocussed in degrees, with and without awareness of volition. They can move around. There is no normal "state" of the eyes. Every level of focus is an act. Every directional movement of the eyes is an act. Now the interesting thing relating to our discussion is that when you walk out into daylight from an enclosed area, you squint. With a bit of analysis you understand that squinting is not about colours. The eyes squint and the lids partially close because of another factor. A photo of the same situation does not cause squinting. One never squints at a painting. There is a factor missing in paintings and photos. That factor is conventionally known as luminousity or brightness. On the way to acquiring a nimitta, the practioner, with eye lids firmly closed, may experience bright flashes. This is an experience of raw luminousity. Would sati of eating certain dishes be called satesati :-) Cheers, everyone Herman 36547 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:02pm Subject: Recognizing Wholesome Mental States Hi All, According to the Abhidhamma, all wholesome mental states are: - Confident (saddha): There is confidence in the value of wholesomeness. One might call this "faith", but this faith is not blind. This confidence pushes aside any doubt in the mind. - Mindful (sati): The mind is not confused or distracted. The mind is in the present and it is connected with what is happening at the moment. - Driven by conscience (hiri): Driven by self-respect, the mind is guided by a sense morality to do what is wholesome. - Afraid of doing wrong (ottappa): Driven by a respect for others, the mind follows the golden rule, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" - Greedless (alobha): The mind is not looking to satisfy itself. When this factor is strong, there can be generosity (dana) or renunciation (nekkhamma). - Without aversion (adosa): The mind is pleasant and agreeable. When this factor is strong, there can be loving kindness (metta) or patience (khanti). - Balanced (tatramajjhattata / upekkha): The mind cannot be dragged into clinging or aversion. - Tranquil (passaddhi): The mind has a peaceful, cool calmness; it is not agitated or restless. - Agile (lahuta): The mind is light and quick to respond to opportunities to do good things. Agility has a stimulating influence on tranquility and tranquility has a moderating influence on agility. - Elastic (muduta): The mind is pliable enough to swim "against the stream" of the unwholesome habits that tend to sweep the mind along. - Adaptable (kammannata): The mind is not so rigid as to make it difficult to transform and at the same time, it is not so pliable as to make it too impressionable. Elasticity is a fundamental condition of adaptability and adaptability sets a limit to the amount of elasticity desired. - Proficient (pagunnata): The mind performs with skill, like an Olympic athlete. Proficiency gives agility the sureness and smoothness of movement that comes from long practice. Agility, the capacity to adapt, prevents proficiency from becoming an inflexible habit. - Upright (Ujjukata): The mind is sincere. Uprightness prevents the agility and elasticity of the mind from falling into insincerity. Agility and elasticity ensure that uprightness does not grow unimaginative and rigid to impair adaptability. According to the Abhidhamma, on occasion, some wholesome mental states can be driven by: - Avoidance of wrong speech (vaci-duccarita virati) / Avoidance of wrong action (kaya-duccarita virati) / Avoidance of wrong livelihood (ajiva-duccarita virati): When opportunities for wrong speech, wrong action or wrong livelihood arise, a wholesome mental state can arise that abstains from them. This can be momentary avoidance in spite of opportunity or as part of a precept. - Compassion (karuna): When one sees helplessness in those overwhelmed by suffering, compassion can arise. This is the opposite of cruelty. - Sympathetic Joy (mudita): When one sees another's success, sympathetic joy can arise. This is the opposite of envy and jealousy. - Wisdom (panna): Whenever we perform deeds of generosity (dana) or observe morality (sila), wisdom may or may not arise. However, when we apply ourselves to mental development (bhavana), which includes studying the Dhamma, teaching the Dhamma and meditation, wisdom will always arise. Metta, Rob M :-) 36548 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Andrew > This message is direction towards anyone who can answer and especially > Nina who is capable and helpful towards us all. Ph: She certainly is. We're very fortunate. > Regarding Chapter four of Nina's 'Abhidharma in Daily Life,' > There is craving in the lobha-mula-cittas. How do we eradicate this > lobha, this craving. I was told previously that mere recognition of > the citta can decrease its bearing on the mind. But how are we to > root out the craving. Is it the same for craving? From my current > understanding, only when we are seeing things in the present as > impermanent and selfless will there be no craving present. Please > correct me if this is not the case. Ph: I'm sure Nina and others more knowlegeable than myself will be answering, but in the meantime your question (as always) helps me to solidify my own understanding. And I will quote Nina to do so. There are different degrees of "seeing" things as impermanent and selfless. We should be realistic in understanding to what degreee we will see reality in a way that eradicates craving in this lifetime. Here's Nina from Chapter 4: "Since lobha is rooted so deeply, it can only be eradicated in different stages. Ditthi has to be eradicated first and then the other kinds of attachment can be eradicted. The sotapanna has eradicated ditthi." Ph: So I guess you show good understanding by focussing on the idea of straightening wrong views as you do below. Please note what follows on p.52. The once-returner and never-returner eradicate different aspects of lobha, but "only the arahat has eradicated lobha completely." There is a long, long joureny ahead of us. Countless lifetimes. Patience is central. That's how I take it. Patience about the idea of "no craving present" because that won't happen for a long, long time, but certainly pressing ahead with diligence as you are with respect to straightening wrong views. I don't know if you saw it - you probably did because anyone sensible would would read each and every one of Nina's posts with keen attention, but yesterday she was talking about sammalobha, the subtle form of lobha which is inevitable and doesn't harm others. Let's see if I can find it. Here it is: >>>>N: Fear is no good, it adds more dosa to the latent tendencies of dosa. Rob K also wrote about the three cycles of kamma, vipaka and kilesa (defilements). This is in the Commentaries. I have to check Visuddhimagga (Ch XVII). Kamma produces a result in the form of vipaaka. We like or dislike vipaaka and this is defilement. Defilement motivates kamma and this produces vipaka and so on. We also can look in the Dispeller of Delusion, Sammohavinodani. But I also remember A. Sujin: sammalobha and visammalobha. Rob K wrote about it. Sammalobha: slight lobha, liking food, looking at trees. The countless, countless unnoticed moments of lobha after a moment of seeing right now, hearing right now. Think of all the javana cittas in the processes! Or thinking with neutral feeling: just thinking about a cup. This is usually with lobha, unless there is dana, sila or bhavana. It is sammalobha, you do not harm others. This is not the same as evil kamma. When reading about Kamma patha in the Expositor I see the specific conditions mentioned to make it a completed action. There are many degrees of kamma. (end quote) Ph: I take this in an encouraging way. Your "no craving present" is not something that we should expect any day soon. Aiming for it in this lifetime might suggest wrong view of self that can do things that the Buddha teaches are impossible. Metta, Phil 36549 From: connieparker Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:29pm Subject: age of wisdom Hi, Vis fans, Just curious. In 'Intro Vis. 83' Nina wrote that "The age from forty to fifty is the most favorable age to develop wisdom according to the Visuddhimagga". Does anyone happen to know where? peace, connie (at 47) 36550 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:27pm Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hello Dighanakha, all, (Interesting I.D. - being the name of the one who attained Stream Entry at the same time and from the teaching of the same sutta which conditioned in the Great Disciple Sariputta the attainment of Arahatship.) I have the hard copy (7 volumes) "The Jaataka or Stories of the Buddha's Former Births" ed. E.W. Cowell trans. H.T. Francis. The Ku.naala-Jataka No. 536 p.219-245. I am interested in watching how this thread proceeds ... I had not seen this Jataka previously. It is certainly quite disturbing. I have checked the General Index for the terms Men and Women. You are correct - not one mention of Men, and a score or more of mainly disparaging references to Women. Previous discussion of the style and authority of the Jatakas revolved around the Vesantara Jataka - revered throughout Asia, but causing consternation in Australia :-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22444 You may be interested - or not - in previous discussions surrounding 'Negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women' from the Anguttara Nikaya - a little harder to set aside than the Jatakas .... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19461 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dighanakha" 36551 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:29pm Subject: Re: Recognizing Wholesome Mental States --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > According to the Abhidhamma, all wholesome mental states are: > - Confident (saddha): There is confidence in ..snip.. - Elastic (muduta): The mind is pliable enough to swim ..snip.. > - Proficient (pagunnata): The mind performs with skill, like an > Olympic athlete. Proficiency gives agility the sureness and ..snip.. studying the Dhamma, teaching the Dhamma and meditation, wisdom will always arise. Metta, Rob M :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! Well said Engineer Rob. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I am considering ujjukata or ujukata 36552 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit - Paying respect to the Triple Gem helpsin eradication of defilements Hi Nina I'm feeling very encouraged by the way gratitude to the Buddha is arising more and more often in my daily life. I mentioned that train ride in which I was feeling awful about some very unwholesome behaviour, but which was turned around when gratitude to the Buddha for teaching the way out of unwholesomeness. And it has been arising a lot, at unexpected times. Awful when conditions come about that allow me to reflect on a certain teaching. (These days I am very fond of ANVIII 6, the Lokavipattti Sutta, about the eight worldly concerns.) The old idea of self that is gaining wisdom and becoming the kind of person who can quote suttas is still there, certainly, but I am confident that there is something better at work - the conditioned arising of right understanding that is gradually eradicating defilements. And there is such gratitude to the Buddha. BTW, I rarely visit temples here in Japan to pay homage because I have too many prejudices about aspects of Japanese Buddhism that interfere. (Not good that my prejudices interfere.) But I was moved to tears by the golden Kannon at Hase temple in Kamakura. I wonder if you have visited it? Or if you could tell me about any other temples you were deeply impressed by during your time in Japan. Perhaps it would inspire me to make some pilgrimages of my own while you are all in India. Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "nina van gorkom" To: Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 2:06 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit - Paying respect to the Triple Gem helpsin eradication of defilements > > Hi Phil, > While paying homage at the holy places in India we can remember the highest > way of respect to him, also while expressing our reverence by body and > speech. There are nama and rupa appearing also at such moments. Otherwise > the paying of respect, the kusala citta, is . In that case the wrong > view of self will not wear out. Of course, we should not try to be aware > with an idea of self. This is always around the corner. But it is good to > know this. > Nina. > op 17-09-2004 00:49 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > > > A moment of investigation of > > realities - in other words, a moment of mindfulness - is a moment of paying > > respect to the Buddha. That will help me to appreciate the importance of a > > single moment of mindfulness. 36553 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:40pm Subject: Deeds of Merit - rendering service to parents Hello all More from "Deeds of Merit" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket, available at http://www.zolag.co.uk/meri2.html Today we move on to the next area of siila, rendering service. It seems to be closely entwined with the previous deed of merit, paying respect: S. : We read in the Gradual Sayings (II, Book of the Fours, Ch VII, 3, Equal with Brahmaa) about the benevolence parents have for their children and the kindness children should show their parents. The text states that the Buddha said to the monks: Monks, those families where mother and father are worshipped in the home are reckoned like unto Brahmaa. Those families where mother and father are worshipped in the home are ranked with teachers of old. Those families where mother and father are worshipped in the home are ranked with the devas of old. Worthy of offerings, monks, are those families where mother and father are worshipped in the home. Brahmaa, monks, is a term for mother and father. Teachers of old, monks, is a term for mother and father. Devas of old, monks, is a term for mother and father. Worthy of offerings, monks, is a term for mother and father. Why so? Because mother and father do much for their children, they bring them up, nourish and introduce them to the world. Parents are Brahmaa called, teachers of old, Worthy of gifts are they, compassionate Unto their tribe of children. Thus the wise Should worship them and pay them honours due, Serve them with food and drink, clothing and bed, Anoint their bodies, bathe and wash their feet. For service such as this to parents given In this life sages praise a man, and he Hereafter has reward of joy in heaven. A child who is good is not merely aware of the benevolence of his parents, but he should also be respectful towards them, and he should support them in every way. Moreover, being respectful towards ones parents and giving support to them is, apart from being the duty of a good child, a way to eliminate ones defilements. One eliminates defilements by the development of the meritorious actions which are paying respect and helping. (end quote) metta, phil 36554 From: plnao Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of Merit - Paying respect to the Triple Gem helpsin eradication of defilements Hello all >Awful when conditions come >about that allow me to reflect on a certain teaching. Another funny typo that contains truth! Metta, Phil 36555 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:53pm Subject: Rob M'sTheory Behind The Buddha's Smile ( 05 ) by Htoo Dear Rob M and All, Theory Behind The Buddha Smile by Rob M at Files section. Page 22, in the box. 1.A fruit falls = A mango falls. I would say a mango falls. Because he knows that he is sleeping under a mango tree. 2.The man removes his headcovering = The man opens his eyes. I would say eyes open. This is direct equivalent to cakkhuvinnana citta. 3. The man inspects the fruit = The man press and smell the mango. He already knows that it is a mango as he has been sleeping under a mango tree. But he investigates whether it is ripe or not by pressing and smelling. 4.The man understands that this is a mango ..= The man understands that the mango is ripe to eat. 5. The man notes the after-taste = The man swallows tasting remaining saliva which still has some taste of mango. 6. The man covers his head and falls back ..= The man closes his eyes and falls asleep again. Dear Rob, this is just thinking. May these criticisms be beneficial. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36556 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:53pm Subject: Re: Recognizing Wholesome Mental States Hi Htoo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > PS: I am considering ujjukata or ujukata I wavered on this point as well. Now I think that I will use ujukata, since technically ujjukata only arises as part of a compound. Metta, Rob M :-) 36557 From: m. nease Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Dan, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan D." To: Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 4:57 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] > The kamma/vipaka theory goes a a step further, viz. painful and > pleasant physical sensations are caused by past bad/good action. It > is usually not possible to trace back as far as "this bad thing > caused this bad result" or "this good thing caused this good result", > but, the theory goes, the pain from the tree falling on your leg is a > result of your bad kamma. This is something that, in my current state > of ignorance, I find hard to swallow. It seems to me that, in the Suttas and the Jatakas and so on, kamma and vipaaka usually refer to what Nina calls 'stories', that is, events involving beings and so on (which are concepts of course). In the context of the Abhidhamma, of course, they refer to cittaani of two jaatis, whether kusala or akuasala--very different from events, past or present. (Of course this latter is nonsense to those who reject abhdihamma--the stories, concepts and their implications are all that matter). Any appreciable event must span truly innumerable cittaani, so of course it's impossible to sort out which may have led to what and so on--hence 'unconjecturability'. Even on the former level, the overwhelming preponderance of past events are beyond recall (for the vast majority of us), so to speculate that the event of the tree falling on your leg is the result of a specific past kamma must be sheer speculation. All of which means, I think, that you don't need to swallow anything... To me it more than suffices to know that kamma is volitional action (with its attendant implictions) and that vipaaka is simply vipaaka, without the implications of kusala, akusala or kiriya cittaani. I'm 'poor' now, so I was stingy earlier in this life, or ten or a gazillion lives ago? Who cares? I'd rather understand what's happening right now. Cheers, mike "There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four? "The Buddha-range of the Buddhas [i.e., the range of powers a Buddha develops as a result of becoming a Buddha] is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it. "The jhana-range of a person in jhana [i.e., the range of powers that one may obtain while absorbed in jhana]... "The [precise working out of the] results of kamma... "Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it. "These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them." Acintita Sutta Unconjecturable http://world.std.com/~metta/canon/anguttara/an4-77.html 36558 From: Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi, Christine - In a message dated 9/17/04 7:33:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth1@b... writes: > You may be interested - or not - in previous discussions > surrounding 'Negative aspects of the Buddha's teachings about women' > from the Anguttara Nikaya - a little harder to set aside than the > Jatakas .... > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19461 > > =========================== Yes. Harder to set aside, and most disheartening. I read the sutta material and the attempts on poster's parts to "explain," and the matter remains most unsettling. And yet I believe there *must* be an explanation other than the Buddha actually holding sexist views, very disparaging and upsetting views. Actually I think there is excellent reason for thinking that he could not hold such views, at least not as applying to women in general, as he recognized and asserted the ability of women to become arahants! If women in general were as described in some of these writings, that could not be so. So ... what can be going on? One possibility, of course, is that some of these writings *have* been corrupted, at least the more extreme of them. There is much evidence of some sutta corrupting, mostly consisting of mixings together, omissions, and so on. For me, this would be a "favored" explanation. Another possibility for some of the milder writings, and when the corruption explanation doesn't apply, might be that the Buddha was speaking to monks who had serious "sensuality problems," and, as a skillful means, though an extreme one, he made use of some of the current prejudices of the time and culture, and standardly part of the belief system of these monks, in order to shake them free from their obsessions. I must say, though, that this "solution" poses the other problems of putting the Buddha in the position of being a "deceiver" and in the position of possibly being harmful to women (and to men) by confirming bigoted understandings. So I have reservations about this as a plausible explanation. Of course, some might say that the Buddha simply was literally correct in what he said, and that part and parcel of being born female is also being born with the inclination towards a constellation of negative traits such as those described, traits that are often actualized, but not always, and *can* be and are often overcome. Presumably, under this scheme of "explanation," there are analogous negative traits for men, but there was no need to point them out to the monks very frequently. This is another "explanation" that is hard to accept and strikes me as a "surrendering" to some extent. The only thing that saves it a bit is the formulation that I gave of it involving merely *inclination* to traits rather than slavish vulnerability to them. The bottom line: I truly believe there really exist valid explanations that do not include bigotry or thoughtlessness or harmfulness on the Buddha's part, but I just don't know what they are. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36559 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:35pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Rob, Dan, Thanks for your post. I appreciate what you are saying about the likelihood of this topic becoming time consuming. ============== R > Kamma does not cause a tree to fall. Trees fall because of many natural conditions but kamma is not one of them. ============== H > Great point ============== R > The rupa that is sensed in the five-sense-door process has an intrinsic quality of being: - undesireable (anittha) - moderately desireable (ittha) or desireable neutral (itthamajjhatta) - extremely desireable (ati-ittha) In the case of the tree falling on the leg, the sensation of pain would be intrinsically undesireable (anittha). The intrinsic nature of the rupa will determine the type of sense-consciousness citta, the type of receiving citta and the type of investigating citta. In the case of an intrinsically undesireable rupa (the sensation of pain), the sense-consciousness citta, the receiving citta and the investigating citta will be of the "akusala vipaka" type. ============ H > You and Sarah have previously written about the perversion of views, where what "should" be painful is pleasant and so on. That the idea of perversion needs to be applied to leave the theory intact is a bit dogmatic to me. But I remain open. ============ R > Following the investigating citta is the determining citta which is functional (kiriya), not associated with kamma. The javana cittas which arise in this sense door process will depend on accumulations. =========== H > Is the determining citta the seed for the javana cittas? Is the determination determined/conditioned by accumulations? The word accumulations seems pretty pivotal to the whole discussion, and any discussion of conditionality really. Could I ask you to write a short paragraph or two about accumulations, as seeds for further study (original Pali words would be much appreciated). Thanks and Kind Regards Herman 36560 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 8:11pm Subject: Natural Decisive Support Condition (pakatupanissaya) Hi Herman / Dan, A fundamental principle of Buddhism is that everything arises because of conditions; there is no God and no self to "decide" things. The Patthana, the seventh book of the Abhidhamma, explains conditional relations; ways in which one thing can be a condition for another. One of these modes of conditioning is "natural decisive support" (pakatupanissaya). Natural decisive support works as a condition when one of the following factors is present: - Strong past concepts - Strong past citta / cetasika - Strong past rupa "Past" not only includes experiences in the current lifetime, but also experiences from previous lifetimes. A concept, citta / cetasika or rupa can be "strong" when: - It was encountered frequently in the past (a past habit) - It was experienced very recently (bad news in one moment influences your reaction to something else in the next moment) - It was associated with very strong volition in the past (strong past impression or a solemn vow) "Strong past concepts, citta / cetasikas or rupa" are the conditioning factors, natural decisive support is the mode of conditioning, but what is conditioned? The texts explain that all 89 cittas and their associated cetasikas are conditioned. In other words, natural decisive support plays a part in the arising of every mental state. Though every single citta is influenced by natural decisive support, we can see that there are certain cittas where this conditioning by natural decisive support plays an important role: - Sense-door adverting: this citta controls the flow of the citta process and "decides" that a certain rupa will become the object of a citta process. Each of the senses is constantly bombarded with information; it is natural decisive support condition that "decides" which data will be processed. - Determining / mind door adverting: this citta controls the flow of the citta process and "decides" which type of javana (kamma producing) cittas will follow. Natural decisive support condition "decides" if our thoughts will be kusala or akusala. - Javana: these cittas create kamma. The weightiness of the kamma produced depends on the strength of the volition (cetana). It is natural decisive support that "decides" how strong the cetana will be and therefore the weightiness of the resulting kamma. - Jhana: The arising of the jhana citta depend on natural decisive support condition. It is this condition that "decides" when we should enter jhana. - Path: The arising of the supramundane cittas depend on natural decisive support condition. It is this condition that "decides" when we are ready to become a Sotapanna (or higher). The popular saying that "people are creatures of habit" is true. If we do metta meditation each morning, our mind naturally reacts with metta throughout the day. If we feel drawn to the Dhamma, it is probably because we studied the Dhamma in a past life and have accumulations to study the Dhamma in this life as well. If we are attracted to a person, it is probably because we have been associated with them in a past life (Yasodhara was the wife of the Buddha in a previous existence). If we have a "talent" in music or art, it is probably because of experience in past lives. There are hundreds of examples in the Suttas and commentaries where the character or circumstances of a person is linked to accumulations from a previous life. The ability to perceive a person's accumulations is one of the unique abilities of a Buddha (Arahants and others do not have this ability). At the time of the Dipankara Buddha, Sumedha the Hermit made a solemn vow that he would become a future Buddha. This solemn vow influenced the Bodhisatta for countless lifetimes. Sariputta and Moggallana were chief disciples of the Buddha and Ananda was the attendant of the Buddha because they had made solemn vows in previous lives that this was the role that they wanted to play. An understanding of how this law of nature called natural decisive support works can be a condition for the creation of kusala kamma: - We should look for opportunities to perform wholesome deeds. This searching for and planning a wholesome deed is, in itself, a wholesome deed. We should ensure that all wholesome deeds are done with strong volition, mindfulness and clear intention. We should review and rejoice in wholesome deeds performed and share the merits of our actions. Each of these activities creates good kamma and good accumulations; a condition to support the performing of more good deeds in the future. - When there is an unwholesome state of mind, we should note it with mindfulness. Seeing an unwholesome state of mind for what it is constitutes a wholesome action. Mindfulness arrests the process of mental proliferation (papanca); the multiplication of unwholesome states of mind. Practicing mindfulness on an unwholesome state of mind weakens the power of the accumulation that conditioned the unwholesome state. - We should understand the potential power of a solemn vow. To increase the potency of the vow, it should be made when the mind is clear and not troubled by restlessness. The creation of kusala kamma will bring pleasant results in the future, but it does not help us to escape from samsara. To escape from samsara, one must develop the accumulation of seeing things as they truly are (nama and rupa) and recognize the three characteristics of realities (anicca, dukkha and anatta). We are often deluded into believing in a "self that has control". Reflecting upon natural decisive support condition supports an understanding of anatta. To draw an analogy, gravity does not "decide" to cause something to fall; gravity is a law of nature. Natural decisive support is also a law of nature. Imagine a pile of rough gravel with a ball placed at the top. Gravity will cause the ball to fall and the laws of physics will determine the path that the ball takes as it rolls down. The path that the ball takes will be determined by many factors including the most recent bounce and any gullies that there may be in the gravel (i.e. accumulations). From this analogy, we can see: - It is almost impossible to predict, with accuracy how the mind will react (i.e. don't know for sure the path the ball may take) - There is no self in control (i.e. the natural laws of physics / natural decisive support condition is "in control") Metta, Rob M :-) 36561 From: robmoult Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 8:20pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Herman / Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > R > The rupa that is sensed in the five-sense-door process has an > intrinsic quality of being: > - undesireable (anittha) > - moderately desireable (ittha) or desireable neutral > (itthamajjhatta) > - extremely desireable (ati-ittha) > > In the case of the tree falling on the leg, the sensation of pain > would be intrinsically undesireable (anittha). The intrinsic nature > of the rupa will determine the type of sense-consciousness citta, > the type of receiving citta and the type of investigating citta. In > the case of an intrinsically undesireable rupa (the sensation of > pain), the sense-consciousness citta, the receiving citta and the > investigating citta will be of the "akusala vipaka" type. > > ============ > > H > You and Sarah have previously written about the perversion of views, > where what "should" be painful is pleasant and so on. That the idea of > perversion needs to be applied to leave the theory intact is a bit > dogmatic to me. But I remain open. ===== Sannavipallasa is not central to this discussion. Let's put it aside for now. ===== > > ============ > > R > Following the investigating citta is the determining citta which is > functional (kiriya), not associated with kamma. The javana cittas > which arise in this sense door process will depend on accumulations. > > =========== > > H > Is the determining citta the seed for the javana cittas? ===== The falling away of the determining citta is one of the conditons for the arising of the first javana citta. But which javana citta will arise depends on accumulaitons (via natural decisive support condition). ===== > Is the > determination determined/conditioned by accumulations? ===== All cittas can be influenced by accumulations through natural decisive support condition. ===== > The word > accumulations seems pretty pivotal to the whole discussion, and any > discussion of conditionality really. Could I ask you to write a short > paragraph or two about accumulations, as seeds for further study > (original Pali words would be much appreciated). Accumulations operate through natural decisive support condition. You are correct that natural decisive support condition is core to an understanding of the citta process. It is also the key to paticcasamuppada. I just posted a somewhat lenghty piece on natural decisive support condition. Metta, Rob M :-) 36562 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 9:45pm Subject: the three rounds Dear Sarah, I found more texts. Vis. XVII, 298: with triple round it spins forever. But it is still very complicated: Formations and becoming (the active kamma process) are the round of kamma. Ignorance, craving and clinging are the round of defilements. Consciousness, nama-rupa sixfold base, contact and feeling are the round of result. And: Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning (Minor Readings and Illustrator), Ch VI, p. 208. What I find difficult is: we can also react with kusala citta to vipaaka. This is still the round of defilements? Also T.A. p. 296. I do not see it expressively stated that each akusala citta does or does not produce result. I think that akusala citta adds anyway to the latent tendencies. I once asked A. Sujin whether each akusala citta is of the intensity of kamma and as I remember her answer she did not think so. I asked the same about kusala citta: she said yes, it is kusala kamma. Except in the case that generosity is very weak: you think you will give but you do not. It is really the field of the Buddhas. A spelling correction: samalobha and visama lobha. Nina. 36563 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 9:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Scope and Focus (About Rupa) Dear Rob M, The Dhammasangani starts the Matika: kusala dhammaa, akusala dhammaa, avyaakataa dhammaa. In this tripartite division, all dhammas are included. Also rupa and nibbana. Then the first sentence: katame dhammaa kusalaa (which are kusala dhammas), and it explains all the kusala cittas and sobhana cetasikas. What else but paramattha dhammas. But you do not need to use the word paramattha. You can also say: dhamma, whatever is real. You would like to see a sutta, well, you could look at: M III, no 115: Discourse on the Manifold Elements. All dhammas (also rupa and nibbaana) are classified here as elements, dhaatus, which are devoid of self. Nina. op 17-09-2004 12:02 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > When the > Dhammasangani asks, "which are the states that are good", I do not > interpret this as meaning "which are the ultimate realities that are > good". 36564 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 0:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Dear Nina, Thanks for your help, but I really need to start again from the beginning: Does citta sometimes become the object of consciousness of ordinary people (including those who have never heard the Dhamma)? I won't ask my other questions now because they will be redundant if the answer is `no.' :-) Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Ken H, > > op 16-09-2004 09:48 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > > > > I can understand that, but I didn't realise dhammas could be known > > only by their characteristics. Just to clarify: Are their > > functions, manifestations and proximate causes never directly > > experienced? > N: Take seeing. Its function is seeing, dassana kicca. It can be directly > experienced, but no need to think of function or manifestation. These are > merely taught to help us to have more understanding of seeing. It is a good > foundation of pariyatti to study these things. > 36565 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:05am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 065 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The 82nd citta of 89 cittas in total is sotaapatti magga lokuttara kusala citta. This citta arises only once and it never arises again. This is true for the whole samsara and even if the being is liberated and does parinibbana. In the series of cittas where sotapatti magga citta arises, the earlier cittas are loki kamavacara mahakusala cittas. While these mahakusala cittas are being matured and reach their peak, the ongoing cittas have to stop and bhavanga cittas all stop. Immediately follow is manodvaravajjana citta, which is the most able citta in selecting any kind of citta. Jhana, magga, and phala cittas have limitations in terms of arammana. Jhana, magga, phala never take kamavacara arammana. But manodvaravajjana does not have any limitation in terms of arammana. Now sotapatti magga citta is going to arise. First manodvaravajjana citta arises and it takes the object of mahasatipatthana. That is at this time seeing one of three characteristics of conditioned dhamma that is citta, cetasikas and rupas. After manodvaravajjana citta, there arise successively mahakusala cittas called parikamma, upacara, anuloma. These cittas are great cittas and they are the highest kamavacara cittas and they are quite close to lokuttara dhamma. After anuloma citta, there arises gotrabhu citta. Gotrabhu citta is still kamavacara citta and it is still a puthujana's citta here. But it is the last citta in puthujanahood. So it is also called lineage-changing consciousness. As soon as gotrabhu passes away, sotapatti magga lokuttara kusala citta arises. This is the 82nd citta of 89 cittas in total. After that 'sotapatti phala lokuttara vipaka citta' follows. There follow another two phala cittas and after that bhavanga cittas arise. These phala cittas are fruition consciousness resulting from sotapatti magga citta. This phala citta is 85th citta of 89 cittas in total. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta Htoo Naing PS:Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36566 From: Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Hi, Ken (and Nina) - In a message dated 9/18/04 4:08:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Dear Nina, > > Thanks for your help, but I really need to start again from the > beginning: Does citta sometimes become the object of consciousness > of ordinary people (including those who have never heard the > Dhamma)? > > I won't ask my other questions now because they will be redundant if > the answer is `no.' > :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ========================== I think this is an interesting question. It is clear, I believe, that we are commonly and easily aware of many cetasikas. When we are distracted or concentrated or happy or sad or confident or fearful or liking or disliking, we typically know it, at least to some extent, albeit not usually very clearly or mindfully. But can we not also say that, at least to some extent, when we are seeing or tasting or smelling or hearing or having bodily feeling or cognizing, we are also aware (unreflectively) of that also? Now is that not being aware of awareness? And, for that matter, can there be awareness of cetasikas without the corresponding (direct and unreflective and non-commenting) awareness that "There is experience"? This sort of nondual awareness of awareness is rather much the normal state of affairs, I think, for human beings. The thing is: I don't think that the direct (i.e., uninferred) awareness of being aware amounts to taking of a mindstate or act of knowing as an object in a dualistic manner. In order for a mindstate or act of knowing to be an arammana in the sense of an object grasped by an act of knowing, there must be two simultaneous acts of knowing, the subject and the object, and I don't think that is an occurring situation. The fresh memory of a mindstate that has recently passed may be the content of a current mindstate, but other than that, awareness of awareness must be a subtle, nondual experience. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36567 From: plnao Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner14-Introduction(k) Hello all As a final question in the introduction - I guess it will be the final one - I think I'll ask something I've been wondering. How do cittas and cetasikas relate to Dhammapada 1:1? In the one translation I have on hand at the moment (Acharya Buddharakkhita) it is "mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox." When I looked at the pali for this, there were no words resembling citta or cetasika (I guess these terms aren't used in the suttas?) but the above sounds similar to the idea of citta being the king and cetasika being the...what was it...retinue? followers? How can this "mind precedes all mental states" be understood in the light of the book we are about to study? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 5:53 PM Subject: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner14-Introduction(k) > > Dear Friends, > > Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > Introduction [contd] > ***** > In the chapters which follow I shall deal with fifty two different > types of cetasikas. I shall first refer to seven types of cetasikas which > accompany every citta. These are the Universals. > > Then I shall refer to six types of cetasikas which can arise with cittas > of four jatis, cittas which are kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya > (neither cause nor result), but which do not accompany each citta. These > are called the Particulars. > > After that I shall deal with the Akusala Cetasikas and finally with the > Beautiful (sobhana) Cetasikas . > > l shall deal with sati in Chapter 26. > ***** > [Introduction Finished!!] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 36568 From: Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:58am Subject: A Succinct Definition of 'Nibbana' Hi, all - In AN X.7, Sariputta is quoted as saying: "The cessation of becoming -- nibbana -- the cessation of becoming -- nibbana': One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of becoming -- Unbinding -- the cessation of becoming -- Unbinding': One perception arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of 'The cessation of becoming -- Unbinding." I have read elsewhere that somewhere in the Samyutta Nikaya the Buddha says that the stopping of becoming is nibbana. Given this, a clear definition 'becoming' yields a clear definition of 'nibbana'. As I understand it, 'becoming' refers to kamma and kammic fruition; that is, to self-oriented volition and its leading onward to consequent states. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36569 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:40pm Subject: Back to Basics...!!! BlankFriends The All Good & Golden Rules: Do neither Kill nor praise Killing. Rather avoid taking any kind of Life. Also make others stop killing too by praising harmlessness & non- cruelty... Greatest is this Offer to the world of Beings: The safety from murder & assassination !!! The painful future karmic effect of Killing is short lifetime & violent non-natural death... Do neither Harm nor praise any kind of Harming, whether instrumental, mental, verbal or physical! Put down the stick, knife, sword & all weaponry. Indeed end now all violence, brutality & hostility. Still all aggression by praising mercy & peace. Greatest is this Offer to the world of Beings: The safety from injury, wounding & violent pain. The painful future karmic effect of Harming is non-curable disease, disability & loss of limbs. Do neither Steal nor praise any kind of Stealing. Avoid taking what is not freely given. Make others abstain from Theft by praising modesty & honesty. Greatest is this Relief to the world of Owners: The safety from loss, damage & undue costs. The painful future karmic effect of Stealing is loss, poverty, need, deficiency, hunger & thirst. Do neither abuse sexually nor praise any abuse. Avoid other’s partners & those engaged or protected. Make all others abstain from any sexual abuse too! Greatest is this Offer to the world of parents & lovers: The safety from deceit, exploitation, adultery & abuse. The painful future karmic effect of abuse & adultery is sexual abnormality, disability or worse. Do neither Speak False nor praise any kind of Lying. Rather avoid all Untruth & Falsehood and induce all others also to speak only Truth by praising sincerity. Greatest is this Praxis in the world of Beings: Honesty ensuring the confidence of trust among many beings. The painful future karmic effect of lying is being deceived, disrespected, lowly positioned or worse. Do neither drink alcohol nor praise any kind of intoxication that induce neglect, indolence, carelessness or heedlessness. Rather refrain from liquor & make all others abstain too. This is the optimal social habit of behaviour in the world of beings ensuring decency, sanity & sound reasoning. The painful future karmic effect of drinking is stupidity, insanity, madness, forgetfulness, poor memory or worse. There are these five gifts, five great offers, original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unpolluted from the beginning, that are not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and are uncencured & praised by wise recluses & priests Details of The Five Buddhist Precepts (panca-sila): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/pancasila.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma http://uk.geocities.com/bhikkhu_samahita http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma Dhamma-Questions sent to my email are quite Welcome. 36570 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:23am Subject: Re: Basic citta processes (was Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner7-Introduction(d)) Hi Rob M and Phil One characteristics of citta is accumulation. We cannot say accumulations are not in a citta literally. Technically it is not right . Ken O > > > Phil: Akusala accumulations are in the citta, right? > > ===== > > Sorry, Phil. Accumulations are not in a citta. Accumulations > influence the nature of citta that arises (through natural decisive > support condition). > 36571 From: Dan D. Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Great to hear from you, Rob M! Please don't feel obligated to spend a lot of time in this discussion, but I hope you can at least help me a little with this theory. I'll first give the short version of my understanding of the issue. Short version: Akusala-vipaka cittas result from akusala cittas. The akusala-vipaka is morally neutral, i.e. it is not rooted in lobha/dosa/moha, but it IS a result of morally corrupt cittas. Let's not take the discussion as far as the javana cittas because I think we can agree that: 1. the sensation of pain arises prior to the javanas, and 2. pain frequently gives rise to dosa but it is not necessary for it to in all cases. Is it wrong to say "akusalavipaka cittas result from akusala cittas"? Does this differ from "the pain from the tree falling on your leg is a result of your bad kamma" in an essential way? [Certainly, kamma does not cause a tree to fall, but that is not a part of my sentence.] Slightly longer version: I see in your discussion that you identify the sensation of pain as a rupa. If true, then pain would belong to the nevavipaakanavipaakadhammadhammaa -- the dhammaa that are neither resultant nor cause resultants, viz. Nibbana and corporeality (sabbañca ruupaa.m) [vipaka triplet in Dhs. (Matika §3, Dhs §993 (in CSCD or the U Kyaw Khine translation, or §989 in the Rhys Davids translation)]. That would mean that kamma surely doesn't cause a tree to fall and that pain arising from a tree falling does not result from bad kamma. But is that what you are saying? I have always have thought of pain as vedana, a nama. "Pain" is the name we give to the sensation arising from certain anittha rupas. As such, it would not fall under the nevavipaakanavipaakadhammadhammaa, but, rather, the vipaka -- "Dhamma which are the results of wholesome or unwholesome dhamma... (Dhs §991 [cscd])." Here, the akusala dhamma does not cause the tree to fall, but it does serve as cause for the pain. Which particular akusala kamma(s)? Impossible to tell, but we can be sure that it was akusala kamma. For me, this is strictly theory because I have experienced a lot of pain for which I can see no connection to akusala kamma, and my understanding of the nature of pain is not so deep that I can say with conviction anything along the lines of "all pain is caused by ripening of akusala kamma." Easier to say would be the following: Kamma keeps this "being" going in this sphere of existence; beings that keep going in this sphere of existence may experience pain; pain is therefore a natural result (albeit apparently indirect) of kamma; beings in this realm all have bad past kamma; a life rife with good kamma may result in rebirth in a realm where there is no pain; therefore, pain is not only a result of kamma, it is a result of *bad* kamma in particular. However, this seems indirect, convoluted, speculative, contrived, etc. To say I'm not committed to this formulation is an understatement. Is there a good way to talk about pain as akusalavipaka without being so indirect, convoluted, speculative, contrived? I appreciate all your helpful comments. Metta, Dan 36572 From: Dan D. Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Howdy, Mike. I usually think about it in much the same way you do. I don't get stressed about the unconjecturability of assigning a specific kamma (or set of kammas) to a specific vipaka (or set of vipakas) and just think about vipaka as vipaka. The texts, though, talk about vipaka as akusalavipaka and kusalavipaka. This sounds strange (even superstitious), and I wrestle with it sometimes just to try to understand what the texts are saying. For the time being, I will neither swallow nor turn up my nose in disgust. Metta, Dan 36573 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi Howard A blind person from birth will not know he is blind unless people tell him that they can see and describe it. Just like some animal that are naturally blind does not know they are blind. They have other senses for them to navigate around. Without eye sense, light etc, there will be no seeing. Darkness is not about without light. What is darkness - it is space to me :). Ken O > > ============================ > My apologies, Ken. Could you please restate these first two > sentences. > I cannot grasp them. > > With metta, > Howard > 36574 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Meditation ? Hi (sorry dont notice who wrote this :)) > wrote: > > Hi Dhamma Friends, > > > > When most people sit for meditation, I think most people will > perform > > Anapana of some sort, or the various forms of Vipassana. > > Nikayas, but is, when explicated, different from the general > > agreement of what meditation actually is. > > His definition of meditation is partly this: > > A sustained and directed investigation into a chosen aspect of > our > > nature and reality. > > This, I believe, includes processes of directed thought and > > reflection (i.e. investigation and evaluation), in addition to > direct observation. > > Isn't this what we do in our everyday waking moments :) Ah so hard to notice, it just passes us moment by moment and yet we have many people keep telling us that we need to sit in one corner to "think" Sometimes I wonder, when we first awake, isn't thought already arise. Do we need to sit and think to think :). Thinking is only valid in the every moment of our life and not waiting in one corner to reinforce the believe that 'I' must do something. When there is an I, then thinking is already lost, panna is already lost bc we are still attached to the idea of I doing :) and believing that it takes an 'I' to eradicate an 'I'. Conditions arise without 'I' :). So lets be happy with thinking now and not later. Cheers Ken O > Hallo Nori and all > > This summer we had a retreat given by a Birmese Abhidhamma master > and > many times het used the term 'contemplation'. > Our (dutch Theravadin) understanding of it was that it is something > > else than vipassana (mindfullnes) or samatha (absorption, jhanas). > It > is thinking about a (Dhamma-)text, thinking so the text had not to > work like a 'mantra' in Tibetan meditations; it's not 'free > thinking', the thinking is 'confined' in the text and I had to do > it > without getting an opinion. > I think the 'method' you are talking about can best be described > with > the term CONTEMPLATION. > Other members of this DSG are better equipped to translate this > thinking-meditation-contemplation process in terms of the > Abhidhamma > psychology (as far as the Abhidhamma is a psychology). > > To give an example I think of the contemplations of Nyanaponika > about > the Four Brahmavihara's. > I quote the first one, about metta (he translates it with 'love', I > > prefer 'loving kindness') > > > "Love, without desire to possess, knowing well that in the ultimate > > sense there is no possession and no possessor: this is the highest > love. > Love, without speaking and thinking of "I," knowing well that this > so- > called "I" is a mere delusion. > Love, without selecting and excluding, knowing well that to do so > means to create love's own contrasts: dislike, aversion and hatred. > Love, embracing all beings: small and great, far and near, be it on > > earth, in the water or in the air. > Love, embracing impartially all sentient beings, and not only those > > who are useful, pleasing or amusing to us. > Love, embracing all beings, be they noble-minded or low-minded, > good > or evil. The noble and the good are embraced because Love is > flowing > to them spontaneously. The low-minded and evil-minded are included > because they are those who are most in need of Love. In many of > them > the seed of goodness may have died merely because warmth was > lacking > for its growth, because it perished from cold in a loveless world. > Love, embracing all beings, knowing well that we all are fellow > wayfarers through this round of existence -- that we all are > overcome > by the same law of suffering. > Love, but not the sensuous fire that burns, scorches and tortures, > that inflicts more wounds than it cures -- flaring up now, at the > next moment being extinguished, leaving behind more coldness and > loneliness than was felt before. > Rather, Love that lies like a soft but firm hand on the ailing > beings, ever unchanged in its sympathy, without wavering, > unconcerned > with any response it meets. Love that is comforting coolness to > those > who burn with the fire of suffering and passion; that is > life-giving > warmth to those abandoned in the cold desert of loneliness, to > those > who are shivering in the frost of a loveless world; to those whose > hearts have become as if empty and dry by the repeated calls for > help, by deepest despair. > Love, that is a sublime nobility of heart and intellect which > knows, > understands and is ready to help. > Love, that is strength and gives strength: this is the highest > Love. > Love, which by the Enlightened One was named the liberation of the > heart, the most sublime beauty: this is the highest Love. > And what is the highest manifestation of Love? To show to the > world > the path leading to the end of suffering, the path pointed out, > trodden, and realized to perfection by Him, the Exalted One, the > Buddha." > > > Metta > Joop > > > 36575 From: Ken O Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Hi Ken H Yes citta can be an object of another citta. Who says it only belongs to ordinary pple :) See you Ken O --- kenhowardau wrote: > Dear Nina, > > Thanks for your help, but I really need to start again from the > beginning: Does citta sometimes become the object of consciousness > of ordinary people (including those who have never heard the > Dhamma)? > > I won't ask my other questions now because they will be redundant > if > the answer is `no.' > :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H 36576 From: Dan D. Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 8:05am Subject: Re: Natural Decisive Support Condition (pakatupanissaya) Dear Rob M, Thinking about vipaka in terms of natural decisive support condition seems to be very helpful. My synopsis of what you wrote: It is natural decisive support condition that "pushes" the sensation of pain into the consciousness. When a tree falls on a leg, pain (akusalavipaka) only becomes a reality when the attention is adverted to the sensations. Without having first developed the habit of adverting the attention to pain, decisive support condition would not be there, consciousness would not be adverted to the unpleasant sensations, and pain would not arise. When natural decisive support for pain is present, attention is adverted, and pain is felt. "Natural decisive support for pain" is developed via akusala kamma (and concept and prior practice with experience of pain). Thanks. Metta, Dan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Herman / Dan, > > A fundamental principle of Buddhism is that everything arises > because of conditions; there is no God and no self to "decide" > things. The Patthana, the seventh book of the Abhidhamma, explains > conditional relations; ways in which one thing can be a condition > for another. One of these modes of conditioning is "natural decisive > support" (pakatupanissaya). Natural decisive support works as a > condition when one of the following factors is present: > - Strong past concepts > - Strong past citta / cetasika > - Strong past rupa > > "Past" not only includes experiences in the current lifetime, but > also experiences from previous lifetimes. A concept, citta / > cetasika or rupa can be "strong" when: > - It was encountered frequently in the past (a past habit) > - It was experienced very recently (bad news in one moment > influences your reaction to something else in the next moment) > - It was associated with very strong volition in the past (strong > past impression or a solemn vow) > > "Strong past concepts, citta / cetasikas or rupa" are the > conditioning factors, natural decisive support is the mode of > conditioning, but what is conditioned? The texts explain that all 89 > cittas and their associated cetasikas are conditioned. In other > words, natural decisive support plays a part in the arising of every > mental state. Though every single citta is influenced by natural > decisive support, we can see that there are certain cittas where > this conditioning by natural decisive support plays an important > role: > - Sense-door adverting: this citta controls the flow of the citta > process and "decides" that a certain rupa will become the object of > a citta process. Each of the senses is constantly bombarded with > information; it is natural decisive support condition that "decides" > which data will be processed. > - Determining / mind door adverting: this citta controls the flow of > the citta process and "decides" which type of javana (kamma > producing) cittas will follow. Natural decisive support > condition "decides" if our thoughts will be kusala or akusala. > - Javana: these cittas create kamma. The weightiness of the kamma > produced depends on the strength of the volition (cetana). It is > natural decisive support that "decides" how strong the cetana will > be and therefore the weightiness of the resulting kamma. > - Jhana: The arising of the jhana citta depend on natural decisive > support condition. It is this condition that "decides" when we > should enter jhana. > - Path: The arising of the supramundane cittas depend on natural > decisive support condition. It is this condition that "decides" when > we are ready to become a Sotapanna (or higher). > > The popular saying that "people are creatures of habit" is true. If > we do metta meditation each morning, our mind naturally reacts with > metta throughout the day. If we feel drawn to the Dhamma, it is > probably because we studied the Dhamma in a past life and have > accumulations to study the Dhamma in this life as well. If we are > attracted to a person, it is probably because we have been > associated with them in a past life (Yasodhara was the wife of the > Buddha in a previous existence). If we have a "talent" in music or > art, it is probably because of experience in past lives. > > There are hundreds of examples in the Suttas and commentaries where > the character or circumstances of a person is linked to > accumulations from a previous life. The ability to perceive a > person's accumulations is one of the unique abilities of a Buddha > (Arahants and others do not have this ability). > > At the time of the Dipankara Buddha, Sumedha the Hermit made a > solemn vow that he would become a future Buddha. This solemn vow > influenced the Bodhisatta for countless lifetimes. Sariputta and > Moggallana were chief disciples of the Buddha and Ananda was the > attendant of the Buddha because they had made solemn vows in > previous lives that this was the role that they wanted to play. > > An understanding of how this law of nature called natural decisive > support works can be a condition for the creation of kusala kamma: > - We should look for opportunities to perform wholesome deeds. This > searching for and planning a wholesome deed is, in itself, a > wholesome deed. We should ensure that all wholesome deeds are done > with strong volition, mindfulness and clear intention. We should > review and rejoice in wholesome deeds performed and share the merits > of our actions. Each of these activities creates good kamma and good > accumulations; a condition to support the performing of more good > deeds in the future. > - When there is an unwholesome state of mind, we should note it with > mindfulness. Seeing an unwholesome state of mind for what it is > constitutes a wholesome action. Mindfulness arrests the process of > mental proliferation (papanca); the multiplication of unwholesome > states of mind. Practicing mindfulness on an unwholesome state of > mind weakens the power of the accumulation that conditioned the > unwholesome state. > - We should understand the potential power of a solemn vow. To > increase the potency of the vow, it should be made when the mind is > clear and not troubled by restlessness. > > The creation of kusala kamma will bring pleasant results in the > future, but it does not help us to escape from samsara. To escape > from samsara, one must develop the accumulation of seeing things as > they truly are (nama and rupa) and recognize the three > characteristics of realities (anicca, dukkha and anatta). > > We are often deluded into believing in a "self that has control". > Reflecting upon natural decisive support condition supports an > understanding of anatta. To draw an analogy, gravity does > not "decide" to cause something to fall; gravity is a law of nature. > Natural decisive support is also a law of nature. > > Imagine a pile of rough gravel with a ball placed at the top. > Gravity will cause the ball to fall and the laws of physics will > determine the path that the ball takes as it rolls down. The path > that the ball takes will be determined by many factors including the > most recent bounce and any gullies that there may be in the gravel > (i.e. accumulations). From this analogy, we can see: > - It is almost impossible to predict, with accuracy how the mind > will react (i.e. don't know for sure the path the ball may take) > - There is no self in control (i.e. the natural laws of physics / > natural decisive support condition is "in control") > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 36577 From: m. nease Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 8:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Again Dan, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan D." To: Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 7:40 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] > Howdy, Mike. > I usually think about it in much the same way you do. I don't get > stressed about the unconjecturability of assigning a specific kamma > (or set of kammas) to a specific vipaka (or set of vipakas) and just > think about vipaka as vipaka. The texts, though, talk about vipaka as > akusalavipaka and kusalavipaka. This sounds strange (even > superstitious), and I wrestle with it sometimes just to try to > understand what the texts are saying. I'm sure you already understand this, but of course kusala- and akusala-vipaakacitaani are so called only because of the kamma of which they are the result--they are neither in and of themselves (different jaati). Also good to remember, I think, that they really are only cittaani, arising for an instant and subsiding , not physical and not events. My apologies if I belabor these points... Cheers, mike 36578 From: Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta as experiencing, to Dan. Hi, Ken - Thank you for the clarification. :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 9/18/04 11:06:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > A blind person from birth will not know he is blind unless people > tell him that they can see and describe it. Just like some animal > that are naturally blind does not know they are blind. They have > other senses for them to navigate around. Without eye sense, light > etc, there will be no seeing. Darkness is not about without light. > What is darkness - it is space to me :). > > > Ken O > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36579 From: robmoult Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:19pm Subject: Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Hi All, Over the past few weeks, I have developed a habit of smiling at toll booth operators as I pass them. I find this to be a truly effective way of putting metta into my daily life. Often, the toll booth operators smile back at me. I strive not to be excited when they do smile back and I strive not to be let down when they do not smile back. Whether they smile back or not is a function of their own accumulations and their own kamma and should not impact my mental state. Using this technique, I foster equanimity. Sometimes, I imagine the daily work routine of a toll booth operator is not that pleasant. I have compassion and I hope that my smile will provide a few moments of pleasure in a generally monotonous day. When the toll booth operator smiles back at me, there is sympathetic joy in their minds which momentarily pushes aside any thoughts of judgment (of drivers) or boredom. May Dhamma practice be part of your daily life. Metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha, Rob M :-) 36580 From: robmoult Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:23pm Subject: The Perfect Gift Hi All, Blood is an anonymous gift. There is no way that the recipient could know who the donor was. Donating blood is a pure act of giving, without any other possible motives. Blood is free from economics. When a gift is opened, the recipient cannot help but think of how much was paid. Unlike other types of gifts, neither the donor nor the recipient attaches an economic value to a gift of blood. Blood is a very personal gift. What could be more personal than blood? Blood cannot be manufactured, except by a human body. During the act of donating, blood is pumped into the sac by the heart of the donor. The recipient always appreciates a gift of blood. Other types of gifts are sometimes left unused or unappreciated. When a person receives blood it is because they really need it; perhaps it is even a case of life or death. You do not need to be wealthy to donate blood, just healthy. I think that we all agree that health is more important than wealth. Let us celebrate our good health and share it with others who are less fortunate (less healthy) than ourselves by donating blood. Metta, Rob M :-) 36581 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:44pm Subject: Re: Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Hello Rob, all, Thanks for this post. This is also a lesson my non-buddhist daughter reminded me of. Coming out of shopping centre carparks, or at highway toll booths, she always makes eye-contact, hands the money over with a smile at the operator as she asks 'How has your day been today?' Often the operator looks a little startled, but always has a reply (sometimes quite lengthy) and a smile. I commented on this once to her, and she said she'd learned it from her dear friend who is a Hotel manager that people may have to do jobs that are just one step up from an automated process, but we shouldn't treat them as machines - they still eat, sleep, excrete, bleed, have relationships, are happy or not, just like the rest of us. Now - I know that you know this Rob, that everyone on this list knows this ... but how often do we treat others as if they are things and not sentient beings? metta and peace, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi All, > > Over the past few weeks, I have developed a habit of smiling at toll > booth operators as I pass them. I find this to be a truly effective > way of putting metta into my daily life. > > Often, the toll booth operators smile back at me. I strive not to be > excited when they do smile back and I strive not to be let down when > they do not smile back. Whether they smile back or not is a function > of their own accumulations and their own kamma and should not impact > my mental state. Using this technique, I foster equanimity. > > Sometimes, I imagine the daily work routine of a toll booth operator > is not that pleasant. I have compassion and I hope that my smile > will provide a few moments of pleasure in a generally monotonous day. > > When the toll booth operator smiles back at me, there is sympathetic > joy in their minds which momentarily pushes aside any thoughts of > judgment (of drivers) or boredom. > > May Dhamma practice be part of your daily life. > > Metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha, > Rob M :-) 36582 From: Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Hi, Rob - In a message dated 9/18/04 4:26:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > > Hi All, > > Over the past few weeks, I have developed a habit of smiling at toll > booth operators as I pass them. I find this to be a truly effective > way of putting metta into my daily life. > > Often, the toll booth operators smile back at me. I strive not to be > excited when they do smile back and I strive not to be let down when > they do not smile back. Whether they smile back or not is a function > of their own accumulations and their own kamma and should not impact > my mental state. Using this technique, I foster equanimity. > > Sometimes, I imagine the daily work routine of a toll booth operator > is not that pleasant. I have compassion and I hope that my smile > will provide a few moments of pleasure in a generally monotonous day. > > When the toll booth operator smiles back at me, there is sympathetic > joy in their minds which momentarily pushes aside any thoughts of > judgment (of drivers) or boredom. > > May Dhamma practice be part of your daily life. > > Metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha, > Rob M :-) > ======================== Excellent, Rob! I completely empathize with your doing that, and I commend you on it, though it doesn't surprise me an iota that you in particular would do that - both as a wholesome, useful action and as a natural outflowing of goodness. A smile, a good word, some encouragement, a compliment when deserved, sympathy when called for, and kindness in general help the receiver and the bestower both, and sweeten all our lives. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36583 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:05pm Subject: Re: A Succinct Definition of 'Nibbana' Hello Howard, all, Have you read the fourteen sermons in the Nibbana series by Bhikkhu K. Nanaananda? They are in the Noble Quest section of BeyondtheNet. These were given to a community of meditative monks because, "Recently we have had an occasion to listen to a series of sermons on Nibbàna and there have been differences of opinion re garding the interpretation of some deep suttas on Nibbàna in those sermons. And so the venerable Great Preceptor suggested to me that it would be useful to this group if I would give a set of sermons on Nibbàna, touching on those controversial points." http://www.beyondthenet.net/calm/clm_main1.asp metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > In AN X.7, Sariputta is quoted as saying: "The cessation of becoming > -- nibbana -- the cessation of becoming -- nibbana': One perception arose in > me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip > fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of > becoming -- Unbinding -- the cessation of becoming -- Unbinding': One perception > arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of 'The > cessation of becoming -- Unbinding." > I have read elsewhere that somewhere in the Samyutta Nikaya the Buddha > says that the stopping of becoming is nibbana. Given this, a clear definition > 'becoming' yields a clear definition of 'nibbana'. As I understand it, > 'becoming' refers to kamma and kammic fruition; that is, to self- oriented volition > and its leading onward to consequent states. > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36584 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:19pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Natural Decisive Support Condition (pakatupanissaya) Hi Rob and Dan, Thank you very much for this. I greatly appreciate it. What follows are just my ruminations, as I digest the material. More for my own clarification, but everyone is welcome to chip in. ==================== R > One of these modes of conditioning is "natural decisive support" (pakatupanissaya). Natural decisive support works as a condition when one of the following factors is present: - Strong past concepts - Strong past citta / cetasika - Strong past rupa "Past" not only includes experiences in the current lifetime, but also experiences from previous lifetimes. A concept, citta / cetasika or rupa can be "strong" when: - It was encountered frequently in the past (a past habit) - It was experienced very recently (bad news in one moment influences your reaction to something else in the next moment) - It was associated with very strong volition in the past (strong past impression or a solemn vow) ==================== H > The description of natural decisive support condition so far is reading much like one would find a description of learning. ==================== R > - Sense-door adverting: this citta controls the flow of the citta process and "decides" that a certain rupa will become the object of a citta process. Each of the senses is constantly bombarded with information; it is natural decisive support condition that "decides" which data will be processed. - Determining / mind door adverting: this citta controls the flow of the citta process and "decides" which type of javana (kamma producing) cittas will follow. Natural decisive support condition "decides" if our thoughts will be kusala or akusala. - Javana: these cittas create kamma. The weightiness of the kamma produced depends on the strength of the volition (cetana). It is natural decisive support that "decides" how strong the cetana will be and therefore the weightiness of the resulting kamma. - Jhana: The arising of the jhana citta depend on natural decisive support condition. It is this condition that "decides" when we should enter jhana. - Path: The arising of the supramundane cittas depend on natural decisive support condition. It is this condition that "decides" when we are ready to become a Sotapanna (or higher). =================== H > Merely as observation, natural decisive support condition cannot be used as an explanation for the first time a particular citta is conditioned. =================== R > The popular saying that "people are creatures of habit" is true. If we do metta meditation each morning, our mind naturally reacts with metta throughout the day. If we feel drawn to the Dhamma, it is probably because we studied the Dhamma in a past life and have accumulations to study the Dhamma in this life as well. If we are attracted to a person, it is probably because we have been associated with them in a past life (Yasodhara was the wife of the Buddha in a previous existence). If we have a "talent" in music or art, it is probably because of experience in past lives. =================== H > As above, there would still have to be some point at which the beginnings of an attraction or talent sprang into existence from a non-existence. Any accumulation requires a seed, a starting point. This is not to be taken as a deficiency of natural decisive support condition as explanation. But care should be taken when attributing a current reality to a past origin. If something cannot spring out of nothing now, no reason to think it could have happened in the past. So NDSC can explain why, say, there is seeing or not seeing in the context of seeing already being a possibility, but it cannot explain seeing becoming a possibility. As a point for more deliberation, is there then an implicit statement in Buddhist thought that mind, and all the possibilities of mind, have always been there, or in the words of another tradition, there is nothing new under the sun? Kind Regards Herman 36585 From: Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 11:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Succinct Definition of 'Nibbana' Hi, Christine - In a message dated 9/18/04 6:05:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth1@b... writes: > > Hello Howard, all, > > Have you read the fourteen sermons in the Nibbana series by Bhikkhu > K. Nanaananda? They are in the Noble Quest section of > BeyondtheNet. These were given to a community of meditative monks > because, "Recently we have had an occasion to listen to a series of > ser­mons on Nibbàna and there have been differences of opinion re­ > garding the interpretation of some deep suttas on Nibbàna in those > ser­mons. And so the venerable Great Preceptor suggested to me that > it would be useful to this group if I would give a set of sermons on > Nibbàna, touching on those controversial points." > http://www.beyondthenet.net/calm/clm_main1.asp > > metta and peace, > Christine ========================= THANK you! I may have read them, but I don't recall. I certainly WILL read them, because I think very highly of Bhikkhu ~Nanananda. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36586 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:38pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: A Succinct Definition of 'Nibbana' Hi Christine, http://www.beyondthenet.net/calm/clm_main1.asp I guess that takes care of what I'll be doing next :-) Thanks and Kind Regards Herman 36587 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > Hi Andrew > > Ph: So I guess you show good understanding by focussing on > the idea of straightening wrong views as you do below. > > Please note what follows on p.52. The once-returner and > never-returner eradicate different aspects of lobha, > but "only the arahat has eradicated lobha completely." There > is a long, long joureny ahead of us. Countless lifetimes. > Patience is central. That's how I take it. Patience about > the idea of "no craving present" because that won't happen > for a long, long time, but certainly pressing ahead with diligence > as you are with respect to straightening wrong views. Phil, I disagree. Look at the very instructions on how to practise from the Maha-satipatthana Sutta: >Being detached from craving and wrong views note30 he dwells without clinging to anything in the world. Thus, bhikkhus, this is a way in which a bhikkhu dwells perceiving again and again the body as just the body.< This is the instructions on how to practise (from the get-go), not how we are once we reach a certain level of attainment (sotapanna). Seeing two of the three dharma seals in existence is possible, I have done it, I looked at my garbage can and I saw it was changing and not-self, just after two 20-30 minute meditation sessions. And I'm one who goes with the Buddha's assurance of attainment that anyone who practises the four foundations of mindfulness in the manner prescribed for anywhere from seven years down to seven days can reach enlightenment. Why countless lifetimes? Who's to say you will get a human rebirth again? So I do agree with you that we don't eradicate lobha till the later stages of enlightenment as it being one of the three root defilements along with dosa and moha (sp) but I don't think that prevents us from being free of craving beforehand. As Venerable U. Silananda said, "Seeing the true nature of things, practitioners of vipassana will not having craving, let along clinging, to anything in the world." If there is nothing permanent maybe we won't see any reason to crave for it? I don't know exactly, but I certainly think this can all be accomplished at a much quicker rate than you take. If we want to go the route of developing the perfections, then, yes, we have a long journey ahead of us. But there are different paths to take and some of them have shorter roads than others. Even dhammapada has instructions for the seeker to only 'meditate constantly' and lists the different fetters he will leave behind as he breaks through to the state of peace. > > I don't know if you saw it - you probably did because anyone > sensible would would read each and every one > of Nina's posts with keen attention, but yesterday she was > talking about sammalobha, the subtle form of lobha which > is inevitable and doesn't harm others. Let's see if I can find it. > Here it is: > > >>>>N: Fear is no good, it adds more dosa to the latent tendencies of dosa. > Rob > K also wrote about the three cycles of kamma, vipaka and kilesa > (defilements). This is in the Commentaries. I have to check Visuddhimagga > (Ch XVII). Kamma produces a result in the form of vipaaka. We like or > dislike vipaaka and this is defilement. Defilement motivates kamma and this > produces vipaka and so on. We also can look in the Dispeller of Delusion, > Sammohavinodani. > But I also remember A. Sujin: sammalobha and visammalobha. Rob K wrote about > it. Sammalobha: slight lobha, liking food, looking at trees. The countless, > countless unnoticed moments of lobha after a moment of seeing right now, > hearing right now. Think of all the javana cittas in the processes! Or > thinking with neutral feeling: just thinking about a cup. This is usually > with lobha, unless there is dana, sila or bhavana. It is sammalobha, you do > not harm others. This is not the same as evil kamma. > When reading about Kamma patha in the Expositor I see the specific > conditions mentioned to make it a completed action. There are many degrees > of kamma. (end quote) > > Ph: I take this in an encouraging way. Your "no craving present" is not > something > that we should expect any day soon. Aiming for it in this lifetime might > suggest wrong view of self that can do things that the Buddha teaches > are impossible. (What is a javana citta?) He said in the very instructions on how to practise for arahantship in this lifetime, in the here and now, that one dwells detached from craving, detached from wrong views. I have been detached from wrong views of the nature of things and probably can be again in that sense but I'm still not /sure/ about the craving/clinging deal. But the Pali Canon does have a note in MN 130 saying those who practise the noble dhamma look upon clinging with fear, for it produces birth and death. So maybe it is possible. Would be great if Nina or someone of similar intelligence could give me insight as to my questions on wrong views, otherwise I'll continue onto the next chapter, degrees of lobha. Still thinking about how just noticing lobha at different moments will decrease it and hoping that I can do it. peace, AL 36588 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Phil, Just checking, Don't you also owe me a reply from a thread a week or two back? I was really looking forward to reading through it. Compose it if you get a chance, Id appreciate it. Thanks, AL 36589 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > ---> And I'm one who goes with the Buddha's assurance of attainment that > anyone who practises the four foundations of mindfulness in the manner > prescribed for anywhere from seven years down to seven days can reach > enlightenment. Why countless lifetimes? Who's to say you will get a > human rebirth again? > ++++++++++++ Dear Andrew, The Buddha said for one who practices the satipatthana constantly will surely attain. But this is only for the extremely wise at the time of the Buddha who had the accumulations to understand what satipatthana really is - and then for it to arise in succession. Nowadays just for most of us to understand that every moment is anatta and uncontrollable - only namas and rupas -takes time. In the Chullavagga atthakatha it says that 2000 years after the Buddhas parinibbana there can be no more arahants but only anagami at most. What we should be aspiring to is to understand this moment appearing now now:I think if we can do that we will not have wasted this human life and will feel confident in the way. Robert 36590 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:51pm Subject: RE: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Robert, ============== In the Chullavagga atthakatha it says that 2000 years after the Buddhas parinibbana there can be no more arahants but only anagami at most. ============== What is the relevance of the Chullavagga atthakatha to nibbana here and now? Kind Regards Herman 36591 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 6:06pm Subject: RE: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Robert, The following is not / was not intended with any harshness. Please read it as a question about how the Chullavagga atthakatha relates to what the Buddha taught. Kind Regards Herman Hi Robert, ============== In the Chullavagga atthakatha it says that 2000 years after the Buddhas parinibbana there can be no more arahants but only anagami at most. ============== What is the relevance of the Chullavagga atthakatha to nibbana here and now? Kind Regards Herman 36592 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 8:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Dear Herman, Thanks for the great question. There are several ways that it relates: 1. This commentary was explaining the Buddha's statement where he said that the Sasana (teaching) would only last 500 years. Someone might have read that statement in the VinayaChullavagga and Anguttara Nikaya and believed that now (2600 years later) the sasana must be extinct. Now they can be assured that according to Theravada it will last much longer. 2. It also helps us understand the appropriate way of practice. According to the texts there are 3 ways by which nibbana is attained: that is by samathayanika (the one who has mastery of jhana); By samatha and vipassana combined ; and by vipassana alone. The Netti-pakarana (587) "Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava vipassanam upadassati. Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties; The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties. Again in the Netti (746)it says that the Buddha teaches insight [alone] to one who is guidable (neyya) and teaches in detail to neyya. At this time (acording to the texts) there are only padaparama and neyya. The extremely wise types with high accumulations of parami are called Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu are now extinct (this is tangentially explained in the commentary I quoted earlier). Padaparama cannot attain in this life, although they can in future lives.. We, at this time, - so the Theravada commentaries say- are either padaparama or neyya and we need many details so we have to study and consider a great deal as a condition for understanding. From Ledi sayadaw http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/individu.htm ""(1) A Ugghatitannu : an individual who· encounters a Buddha in person, and who is capable of attaining the Holy Paths and the Holy Fruits through the mere hearing of a short concise discourse. (2) A Vipancitannu: an individual who · encounters a Buddha in person, but · who is capable of attaining the Paths and the Fruits only when the short discourse is expounded to him at some length. At the present day, only the following Neyya and Padaparama classes of individuals remain. (3) A Neyya : an individual who needs · to study the sermon and the exposition, and then · to practise the provisions contained therein for 7 days to 60 years, to attain the Paths and the Fruits during this lifetime if he tries hard with guidance from the right teacher. (4) A Padaparama : is an individual who cannot attain the Paths and the Fruits within this lifetime can attain release from worldly ills in his next existence if he dies while practising samatha or vipassana and attains rebirth either as a human being or a deva within the present Buddha Sasana. ""endquote Ledi sayadaw. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > The following is not / was not intended with any harshness. Please read > it as a question about how the Chullavagga atthakatha relates to what > the Buddha taught. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > > > Hi Robert, > > > ============== > In the Chullavagga atthakatha it says that 2000 years after the > Buddhas parinibbana there can be no more arahants but only anagami at > most. > > ============== > > What is the relevance of the Chullavagga atthakatha to nibbana here and > now? > > > Kind Regards > > Herman 36593 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ŒCetasikas' study corner13-Introduction(j) Hi Howard, That is well formulated. I could add something. op 17-09-2004 14:17 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > The statement was not that recognizing that > defilements are not-self is sufficient for their removal, but rather is > *necessary* for that. It is one requisite condition, because "so long as we > take > defilements for self or 'mine' they cannot be eradicated" - that is, so long > as > they are taken as personal and intrinsic, removal is blocked. N: One also takes them for lasting, does not see them as impermanent. A clear understanding is blocked, preventing us to see them as just dhamma, an impersonal element. So long as there is wrong view pañña cannot progress, and it is pañña that can eradicate all defilements. Nina. 36594 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Dear Ken, op 18-09-2004 09:43 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > Thanks for your help, but I really need to start again from the > beginning: N: Good!! We all should start from the beginning, I like that. K: Does citta sometimes become the object of consciousness > of ordinary people (including those who have never heard the > Dhamma)? N: Yes, I think it does. When there is no understanding of the Dhamma people can still realize their anger, their unpleasant feeling, their thinking, as Howard also said in his post to you. (I go into that separately). And see Ken O's post, it is not a previlege of certain people. However, they do not know that these are dhammas, impersonal elements. They take them for mine. Actually, we can change the Q. a little: does citta become the object of consciousness for us, also when we are forgetful, not mindful? Yes. Same for feeling, anger, etc. At such moments we notice them, thus, they are objects of citta, but we do not realize that these are dhammas. We learn the Dhamma, we gain more intellectual understanding, and there is a degree of straightening our wrong views. K: I won't ask my other questions now because they will be redundant if > the answer is `no.' N: Do ask them, since my answer is yes!! It is very useful to talk about basic things like this. Nina. 36595 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] age of wisdom Dear Connie, lucky you. I read it somewhere in the Vis itself but would need time to search. Each decad is characterized, like the reclining age, but my father is not yet reclining. Decad of beauty, of strength. Do not take it too literally, it is never too late to develop understanding. I was in Bgk between forty and fifty. Nina. op 18-09-2004 01:29 schreef connieparker op connieparker@i...: > > Hi, Vis fans, > Just curious. In 'Intro Vis. 83' Nina wrote that "The age from forty to > fifty is the most favorable age to develop wisdom according to the > Visuddhimagga". Does anyone happen to know where? > peace, > connie (at 47) > > 36596 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka. Hi Dan, interesting point. Is it the name kusala.v. and akusala v. you find confusing? Now is the time for me to discuss vipaaka. Right now I am assembling my intro to the akusala vipaka, Visuddhimagga XIV, 101 Larry just posted. I shall try to keep this in mind. The Tiika says something about this. As to kusala vipaaka I have already: The Tiika states that also because kusala cittas are powerful while they occur, they have the meaning of being active.> The fact that they are called kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka merely denotes that they are produced by kusala kamma and akusala kamma. They are just one jaati: the jaati of vipaaka. Nina. op 18-09-2004 16:40 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > The texts, though, talk about vipaka as > akusalavipaka and kusalavipaka. This sounds strange (even > superstitious) 36597 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Dear Matt, op 17-09-2004 15:25 schreef matt roke op mattroke@h... > I hope you don't mind me contributing a thought or two. N: I appreciate all your posts. You explained the matter very well. It is just as if you have been listening to A. Sujin all your life. Have you?? M: We can interlectually appreciate that there are numerous *dark* cittas in > between *light* > cittas but are we experiencing them? I sit here with visible object, sound, > touch and > thinking etc., arising and falling away. So many *dark* cittas and so few > *light* cittas and > yet I only experience the latter. N: Excellent. > M: If *the experience of being without eye-consciousness is very common* then > we > would not need to be reminded of them. N: Yes, we are forgetful of the most common realities of daily life. With appreciation, Nina. 36598 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Japanese temples. Hi Phil, Lodewijk says Nara is no 1. Also Kyoto all around, and Kamakura. We stayed for a night in a temple in Koyasan. We liked the simple life there. I talked to some monks. But it was not easy to talk on Dhamma to monks. They were always very kind. Nina. op 18-09-2004 01:31 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > But I was moved to tears by the golden Kannon at Hase temple > in Kamakura. I wonder if you have visited it? Or if you could > tell me about any other temples you were deeply impressed by > during your time in Japan. Perhaps it would inspire me to make > some pilgrimages of my own while you are all in India. 36599 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta. Hi Phil: K I: (I, 7, §2, The Devas, no 7, Over under Suttas, The heart (mind, citta): Nor what is that whereby the world is led? And what is that whereby it plaques itself (is drawn along)? And what is that above all other things That brings everything beneath its sway? N: The answer of the Sutta is: is thoughts, cittas. Friend James could give you B.B.'s translation. I wish he would again take up the Kindred Sayings thread. You can think of kusala citta and akusala citta that are so powerful. Moreover, citta is the chief in cognizing an object but it is assisted by the cetasikas. Citta is never without cetasikas. Nina. op 18-09-2004 14:17 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > > As a final question in the introduction - I guess it will be the final > one - I think I'll ask something > I've been wondering. How do cittas and cetasikas relate to Dhammapada 1:1? "mind precedes > all mental states. Mind > is their chief; they are all mind wrought. If with an impure mind a person > speaks or acts suffering > follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox." 36600 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Recognizing Wholesome Mental States Hi Rob M, my PED has both: ujju and uju, and as you say in the compound ujukata. I liked your characterizations of the sobhana cetasikas. Nina. op 18-09-2004 01:53 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > I wavered on this point as well. Now I think that I will use > ujukata, since technically ujjukata only arises as part of a > compound. > 36601 From: nori Date: Sat Sep 18, 2004 11:13pm Subject: To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nipâta Hi Dhamma Friends, I am trying to make sense of conflicting statements found in the Sutta-Nipâta. In section one of the Sutta-Nipâta - I. URAGAVAGGA - subsection 3. KHAGGA VISÂNASUTTA It urges one to live and wander alone by stating many reasons in support of it. For example: 6. 'There is (a constant) calling in the midst of company, both when sitting, standing, walking, and going away; (but) let one, looking (only) for freedom from desire and for following his own will, wander alone like a rhinoceros. (39)' --- 7. 'There is sport and amusement in the midst of [1. Comp Dhp. v. 142. 2. Comp. Dhp. v. 345.] p. 7 company, and for children there is great affection; (although) disliking separation from his dear friends, let one wander alone like a rhinoceros. (40)' --- ... And then comes this bold statement: --- 26. 'Having left son and wife, father and mother, wealth, and corn, and relatives, the different objects of desire, let one wander alone like a rhinoceros. (59)' --- ... but then it is written in section 6. PARÂBHAVASUTTA, also in I. URAGAVAGGA: 7. Deity: 'We know this to be so, this is the third loser; tell us the fourth, O Bhagavat, what is the cause (of loss) to the losing (man).' (96) 8. Bhagavat: 'He who being rich does not support mother or father who are old or past their youth,--that is the cause (of loss) to the losing (man).' (97) --- Everyones parents or relatives will one day grow old or sick and will possibly need (or will benefit from) the help of their children; whether for emotional support, monetary support, medical support, or physical support. I imagine that most people (and it is the case for me) would be hesitant to consider the life of a contemplative (that is, wandering recluse in seclusion) for concern for either 'son and wife, father and mother, ...relatives'. I have considered it, and still consider it. However my parents are old, I care about them and would like to be around in case they need me. --- Of course it is well known that Gotama left his father and son to seek realization and emancipation from suffering, despite the pleading from his father not to. However his father was a wealthy king, and could take care of himself as well as his grand son. --- Anyway, I am wondering what others make of these contradictory statements? One in support of supporting your parents, One in support of abandoning them (as well as children and relatives) to benefit oneself. metta, nori 36602 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 0:48am Subject: Eight attainments (attha samaapattiyo) Hello all, I was reading a sutta called "The Counterfeit of the Dhamma" SN 16.13 This sutta lists the five detrimental things that lead to the decay and disappearance of the true Dhamma. The fifth detrimental thing is that the bhikkhus, the bhikkhunis, the male lay followers, and the female lay followers dwell without reverence and deference towards concentration. Bhikkhu Bodhi explains: "Spk: One dwells without reverence for concentration when one does not attain the eight attainments (attha samaapattiyo) or make any effort to attain them". What are the attha samaapattiyo? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 36603 From: matt roke Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:00am Subject: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi All, ================= ================= Robert> "Ananda, if women did not obtain the going forth from the household as homeless, in the dispensation of the Thus Gone One, the dispensation would have lasted longer a thousand years Ananda, as women have obtined the going forth from the household to become homeless, it will not last long, the good Teaching will last only five hundred years Howard> Yes. Harder to set aside, and most disheartening. I read the sutta material and the attempts on poster's parts to "explain," and the matter remains most unsettling. And yet I believe there *must* be an explanation other than the Buddha actually holding sexist views, very disparaging and upsetting views. ================= Whether women corrupted the sasana or not does not change what reality is arising and inpinging on the sense door right now. Whether the Buddha held those views or not, whether the Jataka Tales are true or fiction, whether the Teaching will last 500 or 5,000 years does not change what reality is arising and impinging on the sense door right now. In the citta moment that arises right now there is no Jataka Tales, no women, no men, no Bhikhunis, no sexist views and no self; male or female. Understanding the Dhamma negates the stories and that is what makes it so beautiful and its followers so unique. On a worldly note: women have been men before and will be them again and men have been women before and will come back as them again. So we have all probably lived through this debate countless times before. MattR 36604 From: matt roke Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:02am Subject: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Howard and all, Let me clarify in more detail what I inadequately said earlier. ====================== ====================== Matt> Whether we are in a place where things are clearly discernible, only slightly discernible or not discernible at all, the only realities are seeing and visible object. *Light*, *void of light* and *darkness*, along with black and colours, are concepts experienced in the mind door. Howard> the concept of (relative) darkness or (degees of) dimness appears to be well based in directly observed phenomena. So I find that I remain less than fully convinced on the matter. It may well be the case, and probably *is* the case, that absences in general are known only through the mind door, but that in itself does not make them concept only. ======================= For citta to arise at the eye door there must be an object to experience. That object has characteristics, which the citta then experiences. This is followed by thinking, which gives rise to concepts about the characteristics and names for them. The conceptional name in English is *colour* and *light*. However, the characteristics of the visible object experienced by a citta is not the same as the concept of *colour* and *light* that is experienced by the many cittas of thinking. Therefore I made mention of seeing visible object and thinking (concepts experienced in the mind door) of *colour* and *light*. I don't advocate that we should always avoid using these words when talking about visible object, however I think it helps to do so when discussing the subject you have brought up because we need to understand the realties that are there. The characteristics of visible object vary. And whether they are clearly or slightly discernable, the citta arises at the eye door and experiences them as visible object. It experiences them for the reality that they are, not as being dim or darker or in darkness. That happens in thinking where there is comparison with visible objects that have different characteristics. Shaded, dark or black areas are characteristics of visible objects. A visible object may have no such characteristic (a brightly lit white room) or it may be comprised entirely of that characteristic (a pitch black room). A citta can only arise at the eye door if there is an object to experience. In a place where there is absolutely no light the object it experiences is what we conceptionally refer to as dark, darkness or void of light etc. For there to be hearing there must also be an object for the citta to experience, so if there is no audible object (which we call sound) then the citta will not arise at the ear door. When there is an absence of sound it is because there is no audible object for the citta to experience. When there is an absence of light there is still an object for the citta to experience but it only experiences it for the object reality that it is, not as an absence of light, that happens in the mind door. This is how I understand it to be. Much appreciate your question, I found it most valuable. MattR 36605 From: matt roke Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:24am Subject: [dsg] Picking up thread with Ken and Robert (was The Buddha as physician) Hi Ken and Robert, Thank you for your reply Ken. My apologies for taking so long to answer you, I have limited time. ============================== ============================== Robert> Yet don't we reveal our lack of confidence in the Dhamma by trying to change conditions rather than understanding them. ============================== I think I may have misunderstood what Robert was saying here. I think there was some mention of "cleansing" and that led me to take his point the wrong way. ========================= ========================= KenH> The learned trainee does not think, "It is not good enough to know lobha as lobha, I must set up the conditions for alobha." That would, as Robert has said, indicate a lack of faith in the Dhamma - a lack of faith in the efficacy of knowing dhammas as they are. =============================== I am fine with this. =============================== =============================== Ken> That learned trainee might entertain the thought, "I do not like lobha, therefore I will have alobha instead." If so, he will have the opportunity for knowing lobha as lobha. =============================== Would a learned trainee have such thoughts; Aversion (dosa) towards lobha and desire (lobha) for alobha? I would have thought it is wisdom that conditions alobha not dosa and lobha. MattR 36606 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner2-Preface(a) Hi, Matt Thanks for coming in and sharing your thoughts on this thread, and my apologies for the delay in responding. I always enjoy reading your contributions. What you say here is a useful reminder. It helps to keep in mind that we all share a common objective. Concepts are what we have to start with and will always be working with. Jon --- matt roke wrote: > Hi Jon and Herman, ... > Excuse me for butting in. > > I think we all have the same objective, to try and glean the truth out > of what we have available to us. > > For me I listen to different view points until I find something that I > can experience and know or believe to be real. > > I try to learn, so that there will be wisdom that knows the true nature > of the reality that arises and falls away right now to create this > concept of a Buddha, the Tripitika and the teaching. > > We seek knowledge from concepts so that > there can be the understanding that it is this way. > > MattR 36607 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:11am Subject: Predicting the future Hi all, There have been a few mentions in recent posts of predictions of the future allegedly from the mouth of the Buddha. My reading of the suttas suggests that prediction of the future is an activity spurned by the Buddha (even weather forecasting is abstained from), and my understanding of Buddhist thinking generally is that predicting the future, given the nature of reality, is just not possible (there are undetermined moments, therefore all futures are undetermined). I have acquired the habit of assuming that all canonical predictions of the future originate from sources that haven't quite understood the teachings of the Buddha. I would be happy to receive any feedback on this, no matter how wrong I turn out to be :-) Kind Regards Herman 36608 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking and thoughts -- status of Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Terminology is not consistenly used throughout the suttas, the > word > 'sankhara' itself being a case in point, but I agree that the nature of > dhammas, > most specifically the tilakkhana, is knowable by pa~n~na. > ------------------------------------------------- I think any apparent inconsistency is deliberate. You will recall Nina's series on the word 'dhamma', which has a number of different usages depending on context. But within that range of usage there is consistency, and there is consistency as regards doctrinal aspects of the teachings. ... > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I didn't deny that experiential content (what you call object) > and its presence (vi~n~nana) are distinguishable. As you know, "object" is a translation of the Pali term (arammana) used in the texts. I believe your use of "experiential content" to be idiosyncratic ;-)). Is there some advantage in using this term/concept? > All that I maintained is that > 'vi~n~nana' in the scheme of paticcasamupada is more than mere > experiencing - it is > defiled experiencing, defiled by the sense of subject, by I-making. > ------------------------------------------------- I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that the moment of actual seeing and other 5-sense door consciousness are (or can be) either kusala or akusala in nature? What exactly do you mean by 'defiled experiencing'? (The generally understood (orthodox) position is of course that seeing and other 5-sense door consciousness are vipaka and accordingly are neither kusala or akusala in nature.) > > There is no reference in the suttas to any 'merging' of the two into a > > single 'event'. ... > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Actually, I think there is. I think that is what "vi~n~nanam > anidassanam" pertains to, and I think that the absence of that, the > "normal" experience > of sentient beings, is what the Sheaves of Reeds Sutta points to. That's > the way I see it. Interesting. I'd be grateful if you could post a reference to "vi~n~nanam anidassanam" and the Sheaves of Reeds Sutta so I can see what you are referring to (couldn't find either on a quick look). > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: ... > But the meaning of 'vi~n~nana' in the context of > dependent origination I definitely believe is that of > ignorance-conditioned experiencing. Perhaps you could clarify what exactly what you mean by 'ignorance-conditioned experiencing', since there are a number of ways that expression could be interpreted. > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Vi~n~nana and namarupa are mutually dependent. The Sheaves of > Reeds > Sutta says that. So called visible-object is an instance of namarupa. > --------------------------------------------- As I said, I'd like to have a look at the sutta, but don’t have a reference. > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Perhaps so, Jon. The thought occurs to me that a worldling is > without > wisdom, or at least without much, at all times. At the time a Buddha is > seeing, is he also without wisdom? But perhaps it is true that there is > no wisdom in > either case at the time of merely seeing. I agree that wisdom or its > lack is > a matter of mind, not form. > -------------------------------------------------- As I understand it, the seeing consciousness of the Buddha is vipaka, as for anyone else, and as such is not accompanied by wisdom. Jon 36609 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flippin off the moon Hi, Joop --- jwromeijn wrote: ... > > There is no lack of writings by erudite scholars. But by what > > standard do you measure the views expressed by these other > > writers? Do you trust your own judgment in the matter? > Joop: Yes, and sometime with the help of scolars I trust, for example > David Kalupahana and Stephen Batchelor Yes but my question is, how can one be sure that one's preference for a particular writer (and I'd like to keep this non-personal, it applies to whoever) is not just a reflection of a shared wrong view of the teachings? ... > Joop: (1) To nothing clinging is good, also not to realities I agree with this. > (2) The (paramattha) dhammas are realities, that is: they are > not trancendental (perhaps 'Nibbana' is: we don't know) And because > the dhammas are realities in the Abhidhamma we have to be critical on > comments who make things sibtle and complex. Sorry Joop, but I haven't managed to catch your point here. Would you mind explaining further? Thanks. Jon 36610 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:38am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Herman --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > I agree with you, with a few proviso's. Different people will have a > different understanding of what is comfortable. And for some definitions > of comfort, having a comfortable life entails a great deal of effort to > maintain that. And effort expended in maintaining a comfortable > lifestyle precludes the expending of more profitable effort. But the two efforts you speak of here (effort to maintain a comfortable lifestyle, effort to develop kusala) are efforts of an entirely different kind. They are not mutually exclusive, surely. Of course, a generally hedonistic approach to life would make it difficult to see the value in developing kusala, but not so ordinary 'family' concerns -- never disparaged by the Buddha. > I refer to > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp1-12. > html > > and especially > > It is not without reason that it is said that > As the crested, > blue-necked peacock, > when flying, > never matches > the wild goose > in speed: > Even so the householder > never keeps up with the monk, > the sage secluded, > doing jhana > in the forest. Note that it is a *sage* that is referred to here, not just any ascetic doing jhana (understanding is the key, as always), so the comparison is clear. Now take a different situation. As between the householder with developed/developing understanding of satipatthana and the ascetic with jhana but no interest in satipatthana, who do you think would be praised the more by the Buddha? > H > I don't disagree with you; but the following rephrasings could also > apply. The homeless life is advantageous for those *ready* for living > it. It could well be disadvantageous for a person not *ready* for it. Sounds fair enough ;-)) > I do not advocate a wholesale leaving of the householders life. But I am > in no doubt as to which lifestyle was advocated by the Buddha for those > truly aware of the nature of reality and truly seeking an end to dukkha. There are plenty of references in the suttas to followers who are truly aware of the nature of reality but yet who are householders. Reality is whatever is in whatever circumstances, and asceticism is not a necessary prerequisite for the development of the knowledge that dispels ignorance of what is. The Buddha never disparaged the household life lived properly. He encouraged the pursuit of understanding in whatever circumstances one finds oneself (lay life, anapanasati devotee, etc) Jon 36611 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner13-Introduction(j) Dear Howard, -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Azita (and Sarah) - > > > > > > How does this direct understanding become a condition for 'us' > > to do no evil, etc? > > It sort of makes sense to me, but as there are still defilements > > _surely there are still the conditions for them to arise, and do > > evil? no? > > Maybe the evil performed is a lesser degree than if no > > understanding. Maybe I've answered my own question!!! > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > If I may hazard a guess: The statement was not that recognizing that > defilements are not-self is sufficient for their removal, but rather is > *necessary* for that. It is one requisite condition, because "so long as we take > defilements for self or 'mine' they cannot be eradicated" - that is, so long as > they are taken as personal and intrinsic, removal is blocked. And I think that > is so for clear psychological reasons - whatever is viewed as "self" is viewed > as undivorcible (if that is a word ;-). Thanks for this. I'm still wondering tho, even after the first vipassana-nana, when one knows the difference bet. nama and rupa, if its possible for one to still do evil, even tho it may be a 'small' evil - eg tell a lie. Patience, courage and good cheer. Azita. 36612 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 4:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Dear Matt and others on this thread, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matt roke" wrote: > Hi All, ......snip.... And yet I believe there *must* be an explanation other than > the > Buddha actually holding sexist views, very disparaging and upsetting views. > > ================= > > Whether women corrupted the sasana or not does not change what reality is > arising > and inpinging on the sense door right now. Whether the Buddha held those > views or > not, whether the Jataka Tales are true or fiction, whether the Teaching will > last 500 > or 5,000 years does not change what reality is arising and impinging on the > sense > door right now. > > In the citta moment that arises right now there is no Jataka Tales, no > women, no > men, no Bhikhunis, no sexist views and no self; male or female. > > Understanding the Dhamma negates the stories and that is what makes it so > beautiful > and its followers so unique. > > On a worldly note: women have been men before and will be them again and men > have been women before and will come back as them again. So we have all > probably lived through this debate countless times before. > > MattR IMO, this has been the best take on this subject. I was thinking just this the other day. Maybe it is true, what is being stated about wimmin! The Prophet Muhammad seemed to have a few wimmin problems - but then he had far too many wives!!!!!! We have learnt that a female can never become a Buddha, and [to stir the pot a bit further] it is stated somewhere - but can't say where - that it is somewhat better kamma to be born male than female. Whatever! and may we all have lots of patience, courage and good cheer, to put up with whatever we are. Azita. 36613 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 4:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Andrew > > Don't you also owe me a reply from a thread a week or two back? I was > really looking forward to reading through it. Sorry about that. Things kind of spin out control. What was it? I think I was talking about the rarity of moments of deep insight. I think I've had two. One was described in a post I entitled "My wife turned into paramattha dhammas!" If you go back in the archives to around February or March you'll find it - it spawned a fairly long thread. The gist was that I was lying on the floor one evening, reading ADL, and I suddenly looked up, and GOT IT, really GOT IT about the khandas, and about annica, and anatta. Was it intellectually, merely? Something deeper? I don't know, but it changed my experience of life. I just got home from a long day in Tokyo, so a bit lazy about putting it in deeper words than that - sorry. Try to find the thread, if you'd care to. The second was about a month ago. I was sitting teaching, with a physically attractive student to my left. This is something I deal with on occasion, rising sensual desire/lust, flashes of it, arising in certain situations. (My students are adults, BTW.) In the past I have fooled around with various methods of dealing with this situation, but on this occasion, perhaps inspired by the sutta about the gentleman who sees a set of teeth rather than a beautiful woman walking by, I suddenly and without any thought of doing so saw her as teeth, as elements, as not self, as a collection of impermanent aggregates that only an utter fool would waste another moment in sexual desire towards. I GOT IT. It wasn't an unkind feeling. It was very liberating, and allowed me to return to my usual kindly avuncular non-wolfish ways. It was a deep and sudden insight. It hasn't happened since, though the desire has arisen often enough. I still cope with less direct methods. So yes, I'd say I've had two deep insight moments this year, and in my life. I haven't described them well. They aren't really describable, are they? You can describe your experience of looking at the garbage can, but unless I'm in your skin the words have no import really, do they? I did find a passage in ADL that reminded me that I was wrong to say that the Buddha said it was impossible for a worldling to achieve Arahant in one life. In the suttas, there are examples of worldlings who did. On the other hand, wanted to point out two passages that may urge you towards more patience: Ch. 23 - please read the answer to the question "How does one know that one has attained enlightenment?" It nicely lays out the gradual stages of insight-wisdom. I also like this passage in Chapter 23 : "We cannot expect a great deal of sat and panna in the beginning. However, each moment of right awareness if fruitful, because it can conditon further moments of awareness and thus it can be accumulated. When panna realizes a phenomenon which appears are nama or rupa, there is less clinging to the concept of self and in this way ditthi is gradually eradicated, until finally all latent tendencies of ditthi are eradicated by the magga-citta (lokuttara kusal citta) of the sotapanna; then ditthi will never arise again." For me, sounds like a project for the next who knows how many lifetimes ....but of course it's none of my business how you go about your Dhamma practice and I will stop being a busybody about it. Metta, Phil 36614 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 5:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Dan, > interesting point. Is it the name kusala.v. and akusala v. you find > confusing? Now is the time for me to discuss vipaaka. Right now I am > assembling my intro to the akusala vipaka, Visuddhimagga XIV, 101 Larry just > posted. I shall try to keep this in mind. The Tiika says something about > this. > As to kusala vipaaka I have already: > the mahaa-kusala cittas because of the accompanying cetasikas, their way of > occurring (pavatti-aakaara) is different. The kusala citta performs kusala > through the doors kamma [N: of body, speech or mind], but the vipaakacitta > does not. The vipaakacitta does not produce bodily intimation or speech > intimation. > N: The vipaakacittas do not perform deeds of generosity, etc.> > resultant should be understood as passive like the reflection of a face > in a looking-glass while the profitable is active like the face. > ========================================== > N: The Tiika explains the difference between active (ussaaha or with effort) > and passive (nirussaaha, without effort). We read: named because it is reckoned as the capacity to produce vipaaka, so long as > ignorance, clinging and conceit in the succession of cittas have not been > eradicated (anupacchinnaavijjaata.nhaamaanasantaane). As to vipaakacitta, > this does not have such activity, it is passive (nirussaaha).> > The Tiika states that also because kusala cittas are powerful while they > occur, they have the meaning of being active.> > The fact that they are called kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka merely > denotes that they are produced by kusala kamma and akusala kamma. They are > just one jaati: the jaati of vipaaka. > Nina. > op 18-09-2004 16:40 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > > > The texts, though, talk about vipaka as > > akusalavipaka and kusalavipaka. This sounds strange (even > > superstitious) 36615 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 5:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka. Dear Nina, Thanks for the lovely passages from Vism. and the explanation of the distinction between kamma and vipaka. And, yes, in a sense it is the names kusalavipaka and akusalavipaka that I find confusing. It sounds quite odd to hear that pain is akusalavipaka, i.e. that all pain is caused by past bad kamma. Rob M is helping me enormously with this notion. He said (approximately) that the pain arises because the mind is in the habit of adverting attention to the painful sensation (natural decisive support condition -- NDSC). Without the NDSC, no pain. Also, the NDSC for pain is bolstered by akusala citta. At first glance, this explanation seems to have a lot of merit. [I hope I'm not horrifically misrepresenting Rob M's comments!] Metta, Dan > interesting point. Is it the name kusala.v. and akusala v. you find > confusing? 36616 From: Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nipâta Hi, Nori - In a message dated 9/19/04 2:14:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > Everyones parents or relatives will one day grow old or sick and will > possibly need (or will benefit from) the help of their children; > whether for emotional support, monetary support, medical support, or > physical support. > > I imagine that most people (and it is the case for me) would be > hesitant to consider the life of a contemplative (that is, wandering > recluse in seclusion) for concern for either 'son and wife, father > and mother, ...relatives'. > > I have considered it, and still consider it. However my parents are > old, I care about them and would like to be around in case they need > me. > > --- > > Of course it is well known that Gotama left his father and son to > seek realization and emancipation from suffering, despite the > pleading from his father not to. However his father was a wealthy > king, and could take care of himself as well as his grand son. > > --- > > Anyway, I am wondering what others make of these contradictory > statements? > > One in support of supporting your parents, One in support of > abandoning them (as well as children and relatives) to benefit > oneself. > > > ============================= At the Buddha's time, and perhaps today in some countries, a young son going forth actually relieved the family of some financial burden. In the case of an older son going forth, he might leave all of his wealth and possessions except for bare necessities with the family as a support for them. So, going forth is sometimes a support for the parents. I know of particular cases of westerners who have gone forth after having accumulated some wealth, and who still support the parents. Sometimes money is left in trust. One more thing: The Buddha did mention what an *enormous* debt a person owes to his/her parents, even to the point, as I vaguely recall, of the appropriateness of carrying them around on his/her shoulders. (As you point out, in the case of the Bodhisatta, his parents were well off, and, so, his leaving them was not thoughtless as regards their financial welfare.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36617 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flippin off the moon Hi, Dighanakha You suggest that everything can be seen as a matter of personal judgment ultimately. Well, that's one way of looking at it I suppose, but it still leaves the question of why prefer one source over another. Are you saying there are good reasons for preferring modern writers, or sectarian views, to the traditional commentators? BTW, no-one is taking the ancient texts as 'absolutely authoritative', since that implies uncritical acceptance. As we know, only directly realized knowledge counts in the long run, and the texts are but one factor (although a very important one) in the chain of development leading to that. Jon --- dighanakha wrote: ... > Hello Jon. > > If someone thinks "My own judgment is poor, so I'll trust the > judgment of the ancient arahant theras as reported by > Buddhaghosa" then it is by her own judgment that she has judged > Buddhaghosa's judgment to be better than her own. And it is by > her own judgment that she has judged the reportage of Buddhaghosa > to be a faithful account of the understanding of the Buddha's > arahant disciples (as the Theravada tradition claims) and not > merely one competing sectarian interpretation among others (as > modern scholars claim). So in a sense she is trusting her own > judgment no less than a person who tries to read and understand > the Tipitaka unaided by Buddhaghosa's exegesis, or aided by > Buddhaghosa's exegesis but not treating it as absolutely > authoritative. ... > So it seems that in the final analysis one is always -- and > ineluctably -- trusting one's own judgment. ... > Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker 36618 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati/ Jon II Hi, Eric --- ericlonline wrote: > Hey Jon, ... > In this case the Buddha was talking to monks. But > check out in the Samyuta 41.8 & 41.9. Here the householder > Citta is talking with two ascetics from other traditions. > Citta, a householder like you and me, says he has attained > the 4th Jhana and is reputed to be a non-returner. Wonder how he > attained to the 4th Jhana? Since he is a non-returner, > and had jhanic capabilites, I am sure he must > of practised some sort of samatha meditation. Do you > think it possibly was Anapanasati? Well, it could have been. Jhana is possible for a lay person, if the accumulations from previous lifetimes are appropriate (this phenomenon has been discussed on this list before). But this is not the same as saying that anapanasati was recommended by the Buddha as suitable and appropriate for everyone interested in developing insight. Citta the householder was a most exceptional kind of person (it's true he was like you and me in being a householder, but I suspect the resemblance ends there ;-)). > Well you seem to be agreeing with me then. If in another > Sutta he says it is One Factor and here groups it with > 9 other factors then it seems that he held it in high > regard. Not to mention, Anapanasati was what he was doing > on the eve of his Enlightenment! There is no doubt that anapanasati was highly commended by the Buddha in certain contexts. > Which one of the 9 do you use to cultivate > Right Concentration (i.e. jhana) Jon? Or are > you following an abbreviated version of the 8 > fold path? To my understanding, Right Concentration is the concentration that arises with certain other (mundane) path factors including Right Understanding. Whenever satipatthana is being developed, so is Right Concentration. If and when path consciousness (enlightenment) is attained, the Right Concentration will be of jhana level, and this is why it is described the way it is as a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path. Mundane jhana should not in my view be equated with Right Concentration, since mundane jhana can be developed even by someone who rejects the dhamma in favour of another teaching, including a teaching that asserts the existence of a soul or supreme god and denies the efficacy of deeds. Such a person experiencing jhana is surely not developing Right Concentration (or would you disagree?). > Also, to bolster my position. In the Samyuta just beyond > the 41.9 mentioned above, the Buddha is talking to Headmen. > Here he talks about teaching the SAME dhamma to 3 types of > people e.g. Bhikkhus, lay followers of his and people of other > sects. So, if he says he taught the same dhamma to all, then > Anapanasati was taught for the benefit of all! Couldn't find the passage I'm afraid, but would be happy to comment if you care to provide a reference. Jon 36619 From: Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi, Matt - In a message dated 9/19/04 4:00:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mattroke@h... writes: > Whether women corrupted the sasana or not does not change what reality is > arising > and inpinging on the sense door right now. Whether the Buddha held those > views or > not, whether the Jataka Tales are true or fiction, whether the Teaching will > > last 500 > or 5,000 years does not change what reality is arising and impinging on the > sense > door right now. > > In the citta moment that arises right now there is no Jataka Tales, no > women, no > men, no Bhikhunis, no sexist views and no self; male or female. > > Understanding the Dhamma negates the stories and that is what makes it so > beautiful > and its followers so unique. ============================= I agree with the foregoing, I think it is important, and very well said! I recall also, I think it was with regard to dependent origination and conditionality, that the Buddha said that whether Buddhas arise in the world or not, the Dhamma is an objective reality. Specifically, there is the following: > "Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands, > this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma: All > fabrications are inconstant…."Anguttara Nikaya III.137 (Dhamma-niyama Sutta) ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36620 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:38am Subject: RE: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Matt, You sound like you know what you are talking about :-) Can I ask for some clarifications? ============== M > For citta to arise at the eye door there must be an object to experience. ============== H > Does the object exist independent of the citta or the eye door? Does the eye door exist independent of the citta or the object? Is there only ever one eye door? (I am just wondering why it is rendered "the eye door" as opposed to "an eye door" or "the eye doors") ============== M > That object has characteristics, which the citta then experiences. ============== H > Characteristics is a plural rendition. I would be happy to accept this as your personal experience, but if you are quoting theory, doesn't the theory stipulate otherwise? Kind Regards Herman 36621 From: Dan D. Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 6:47am Subject: Re: Flip-flopping [Matt] Dear Matt, Great comments and questions about "dark" cittas! This issue strikes at the heart of understanding citta. You wrote: "...there are an amazing number of *dark* cittas in between the *light* cittas. And yet it seems as though there is seeing all the time without any gaps; visible object without anything in between." That's testament to the power of sañña (recognition, memory)! One moment of seeing is followed by a long series of hearing, thinking, akusala citta, etc. Then, another moment of seeing. But the long series of "dark" cittas took place so rapidly that the new visual object appears extremely similar to the previous one. The function of sañña is to give the impression "I recognize this object. It is just like the one a moment ago. Oh, yes, I'm seeing the same thing." The "recognize, recognize, recognize" leads to the impression "same, same, same" which leads to an impression of continuous seeing. Now, go through the same exercise for hearing: One moment of hearing is followed by a long series of silent cittas -- seeing, thinking, akusala citta, etc. Sañña recognizes one moment of hearing as being very similar to the previous one, which leads to the impression "same, same, same" and the impression of continuous hearing. Likewise for thinking. It can even seem like all the cittas arising as I sit here are light, noisy, and with unbroken continuity of thought. But, really, each citta has its own characteristics -- hearing, seeing, thinking, akusala, kusala, etc. Matt: "We can intellectually appreciate that there are numerous *dark* cittas in between *light* cittas but are we experiencing them?" Yes, we certainly are experiencing them. However, there may not be understanding that, e.g., seeing is distinct from hearing. On occasion, though, there may be a flash of recognition that moments of seeing are distinctly different from moments of hearing. On reflection after the fact, the moments of hearing seem utterly dark and the moments of seeing, utterly silent. This is not anything like looking for darkness in hearing! It's more like simply understanding the nature of hearing as hearing, seeing as seeing. Matt: "If *the experience of being without eye-consciousness is very common* then we would not need to be reminded of them." We do need to be reminded -- and often. So many moments arise that are not eye-consciousness. We experience them all the time, but it is easy to get confused and see them as moments of eye-consciousness instead of ear-consciousness, etc. They ALL *seem* to be going on continuously, but on closer examination, they are quite distinct -- arising and passing away very rapidly; nothing to cling to; no abiding, continuous Self to cling. Metta, Dan 36622 From: Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi, Matt - In a message dated 9/19/04 4:23:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mattroke@h... writes: > When there is an absence of sound it is because there is no audible object > for > the citta to experience. When there is an absence of light there is still an > > object for > the citta to experience but it only experiences it for the object reality > that it is, not > as an absence of light, that happens in the mind door. > ========================== But this asymmetry makes no sense to me. Absence of sound in the phenomenological (i.e., experiential) sense is commonly called "silence". Is it an ear-door experience or a mind-door experience? I think it is the latter, a sound-oriented mind-door experience which is not a matter of concept. What do you mean by "absence of light"? It seems you mean something not experiential, but as having some physics sense, something not analogous to the experiential absence of sound. When I speak of "darkness" I am speaking of experiential absence of positive visual content in the same way as you speak of absence of sound as there being no audible object "for the citta to experience." This is visual absence known through the mind door. It seem to me that there are many "colors" of sound, but these are all different from degrees of silence. Likewise, it seems to me that there are many colors of sight - here I needn't put 'colors' in quotes - and these are all different from degrees of "darkness". The trouble is that 'darkness' is a term that is not a proper visual analog for the auditory term of 'silence'. We tend to identify 'darkness' with shades of color, the extreme of which is black. But blackness is not "visual silence". We lack a term for visual silence. But that does not mean that we lack visual silence! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36623 From: Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking and thoughts -- status of Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/19/04 5:28:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > As you know, "object" is a translation of the Pali term (arammana) used in > the texts. I believe your use of "experiential content" to be > idiosyncratic ;-)). Is there some advantage in using this term/concept? > > ========================== For me there is an advantage. The term 'content' (for me) lacks a connotation of of independence/self-existence moreso than does the term 'object'. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36624 From: Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking and thoughts -- status of Hi, Jon - In a message dated 9/19/04 5:28:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > >All that I maintained is that > >'vi~n~nana' in the scheme of paticcasamupada is more than mere > >experiencing - it is > >defiled experiencing, defiled by the sense of subject, by I-making. > >------------------------------------------------- > > I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that the moment of actual > seeing and other 5-sense door consciousness are (or can be) either kusala > or akusala in nature? What exactly do you mean by 'defiled experiencing'? > (The generally understood (orthodox) position is of course that seeing > and other 5-sense door consciousness are vipaka and accordingly are > neither kusala or akusala in nature.) > ========================== I am interpreting 'vi~n~nana' in the scheme of dependent origination to refer to the self-oriented knowing: the illusory sense of a subject encountering an object. This, of course, is the consequence of sankhara, which in turn is a consequence of avijja. For further clarification, there is my whole sequence of past posts on this matter to look at. I'd really rather not go through that all again at this juncture, though. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36625 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma-condition. Dear Htoo, There is sahajaata kamma paccaya (conascent), and there is naanakhanika kamma paccaya (working from a different time, asynchronous kamma, of the past). Kamma is cetana cetasika. See the Patthana. Cetana that accompanies each citta conditions the accompanying dhammas by way of sahajaata kamma-condition. It coordinates the work of the accompanying dhammas. See Rob M's post. For those who have U Narada's Guide to Condiitonal Relations: p. 51. Nina. op 17-09-2004 15:17 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > I would say kamma is cetana which accompanied 29 javana cittas in the > past. In the past include time which is not now and future. > > These 29 cittas are > > 1. 12 akusala cittas > 2. 8 mahakusala cittas > 3. 5 rupakusala cittas > 4. 4 arupakusala cittas > > Cetana in other cittas?? I do not know. Once I asked Nina and she > said both expressions are right. These 2 expressions are > > 1. Kamma is cetana in past 29 jvana cittas > 2. Kamma is cetana in all 89 cittas 36626 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Al, (Howard at the end), op 18-09-2004 00:15 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: > Regarding Chapter four of Nina's 'Abhidharma in Daily Life,' Eradication of craving. ================ > There is craving in the lobha-mula-cittas. How do we eradicate this > lobha, this craving. I was told previously that mere recognition of > the citta can decrease its bearing on the mind. But how are we to > root out the craving. Is it the same for craving? From my current > understanding, only when we are seeing things in the present as > impermanent and selfless will there be no craving present. Please > correct me if this is not the case. N: Phil also touched on this point. When kusala citta with daana arises, there is no craving at that moment. Each kusala citta is accompanied by alobha, non-attachment. When we reflect on the Dhamma there is no craving. The person who attains the third stage of enlightenment, the non-retuner has eradicated clinging to sense objects. All kinds of craving can only be eradicated by the arahat. He is liberated from the cycle. The links of ignorance and craving are cut off. Wrong view. ======== A: Next, is wrong views. This is something that captures my interest. > The book I am trying to practise out of, a commentary on the > Maha-satipatthana sutta, states that we need knowledge of Abhidharma > for the third foundation of mindfulness, that is, contemplation of > mind. N: The same is true for the other foundations of mindfulness. I would say, a basic knowledge of citta, cetasika and rupa is most helpful. A: Now I have felt that I could recognize one of these wrong > views, ditthis, as it arose in me. If I could recognize which citta > it accompanied, even better (this should happen as I memorize the > different types of citta). N: We cannot find out much so long as we do not even know the difference between nama and rupa, the first stage of tender insight. I think that it does not help much to try to recognize different kinds of wrong view. When sati of satipatthana arises wrong view may be the object, we cannot predic this. Only then can it be understood more clearly. Wrong view is a kind of clinging, and understanding leads to detachment. Detachment is the goal, but right from the beginning there should be detachment form an idea of: I do it, I shall try to catch this or that dhamma. A: But how am I to know which wrong view it > is, ie an eternal self wrong view (further, does this eternal self > wrong view hold that the body is a self, or does it apply to all > phenomenon?), the annihilation self view, and wrong view about kamma > and vipaka, thinking purification can come about through rites and > rituals. Especially the last one, I wouldnt be able to recognize that > such a wrong view was present in my mind. N: That is very good. It helps to know that we are inclined to manipulate sati so long as we are not sotapannas. It also helps to know that this is not the way. A: ....does absence of wrong view indicate right view is > present? I wouldn't think so. N: There are many levels of right view or pañña. There is no wrong view at a moment of intellectual understanding. But, the latent tendency is there. A: So how do we go about instilling right > view in ourselves? N: So, we have to be careful here. Before we know it, there is an idea of self who wants to do this. But your question is good. As intellectual understanding grows, there will be less conditions for coarse wrong view, of the intellectual level. But when there are conditions for direct awareness and understanding sati and paññaa arise and they are more effective in wearing out wrong view. A: For instance, the Buddha has said right view is > 'undistorted vision' of the existence of this world, the next... There is > also the wrong view of seeing 'self' in things. The latter type can > be annihilated through meditation, I believe, but that only works to > an extent on the former. N: There are two kinds of meditation or bhaavana: samatha and vipassana. Only through vipassana wrong view of self can be eradicated. A:.... I have heard it said that we can > straighten our views by questioning monks and reading good dhamma > books, but I plainly don't see how this is the case. It seems to me > it should be experiential, ie, when you give, you should know that > there is something given, you should know there is mother and father. N: Straightening our views, a good topic. It is the tenth basis of kusala. There are many levels again. It can go together with each kind of kusala. When you speak words of appreciation to your parents with kusala citta, it is a form of dana. At that moment the citta knows the benefit of kusala. That is a level of straightening one's views. Before, we knew very little about kusala and akusala, anyway, not in such a precise way. Straightening our views is not: thinking that you should know that there is something given, you should know there is mother and father. As to the last one, the meaning is: parents you can help with kusala citta, and that kusala citta can bear fruit. A: "There is fruit and result of > good and bad actions," which is not in fact vision but only memorized > from scripture. N: Yes, it is still intellectual understanding. It is bound to be like that. Through insight there can be direct understanding of kamma and vipaaka, no thinking. In fact even when the first stage of insight is reached, but for me it is still theoretical. A: So, straightening wrong views is a topic that I'd like to hear more > about, and I'd also like to learn about the nature of views, right or > wrong, themselves. N: It helps to remember that wrong view is accompanied by clinging and right view is accompanied by detachment. You wrote to Phil: The noticing will not do it, alas. Actually, I should not say alas, it is a good thing. It shows us that we are not possessor of the cittas nor of kusala or akusala. As Howard said: defilements are not-self is sufficient for their removal, but rather is *necessary* for that. It is one requisite condition, because "so long as we take defilements for self or 'mine' they cannot be eradicated" - that is, so long as they are taken as personal and intrinsic, removal is blocked.> We should see defilement as just dhamma, as an impersonal element, arising because of its own conditions. We can reflect on what we read in the suttas: the sotapanna has eradicated wrong view, not the other forms of lobha. He can laugh and cry, has all kinds of emotions. But he does not have coarse akusala. To me this makes a lot of sense. Defilements are so stubborn, think of the latent tendencies, they can condition the arising of akusala citta at anytime. And very sudden and unexpectedly too. The eradication can only be stage by stage. Nina. 36627 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Hi Howard, op 18-09-2004 13:48 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: It is clear, I believe, that > we are commonly and easily aware of many cetasikas. ....when we > are seeing or tasting or smelling or hearing or having bodily feeling or > cognizing, we are also aware (unreflectively) of that also? Now is that not > being > aware of awareness? N: I see it like that. The use of the word awareness could be ambivalent, but i know what you mean. Being conscious. H: This sort of nondual awareness of awareness is > rather much the normal state of affairs, I think, for human beings. > The thing is: I don't think that the direct (i.e., uninferred) > awareness of being aware amounts to taking of a mindstate or act of knowing as > an object in a dualistic manner. In order for a mindstate or act of knowing to be > an arammana in the sense of an object grasped by an act of knowing, there must > be two simultaneous acts of knowing, the subject and the object, and I don't > think that is an occurring situation. N: Only one citta at a time, never two. I find that this makes sense. I cannot think of two things at a time. But, because of our ignorance, it seems that cittas such as seeing and hearing can last and be there at the same time. That is because their true nature of impermanence has not been realized. I do not realize their arising and falling away and thus also I do not realize their anattaness. One citta can only be known by another citta, a citta does not know itself. H: The fresh memory of a mindstate that has recently passed may be the content of a current mindstate, but other than that, awareness of awareness must be a subtle, nondual experience. N: When sati arises it can be aware of seeing that has just fallen away. There can also be awareness (sati) and understanding of awareness that has fallen away a moment ago, and this is very necessary. Otherwise we take awareness (sati) for self. Detachment is the goal, but wrong view is in the way. You see the importance of the eradication of wrong view that has to be first. As you said, so long as we take defilements for self or 'mine' they cannot be eradicated. But now we have to speak about the practice. You are afraid that an idea of subject and object is in the way. When sati is aware of the characteristic of seeing as an experience, there is no need to think of subject and object. It is a matter of just attending to the characteristic of seeing, that is all. And I am reminding myself now!! When sati is aware of what appears through the eyes, colour, light or the visible, name it anything you like, it attends just to that characteristic. No thinking of subject and object, no thinking of nondual experience. In that way you can find out by direct awareness and understanding that there is a kind of dhamma that experiences and that there is a kind of dhamma that does not experience. Visible object does not know: I am looked at! Why should we find out whether an experience is dualistic or not. I think that this does not lead to detachment. One may take a nondual experience for self. Big selves, small selves, always around the corner. Another example. Touch a conglomeration of rupas we call a log and touch the body. Hardness appears. But the hardness of a log is not different from the hardness of the body. This can lead to detachment from my precious body. It is like a log of wood. Shouldn't we profit from the words the Buddha speaks in the suttas about the element of earth that is hardness? Shouldn't we use all means to become detached? We learn that the first stage of insight is knowing the difference between nama and rupa. We learn this, but it also makes sense to me. If we take together body, bodysense, bodily feeling, mental feeling as one mass, we cling, no way out. But when pañña analyses different dhammas, there will be nothing left that is worth clinging to. Just the very ephemeral tiniest elements. Nothing important, nothing attractive. We should remember the ³Discourse on the Manifold Elements² (Middle length Sayings, no 115)where we read: The element of touch is just tangible object, it can be earth or hardness. When the Buddha spoke to Rahula about the element of earth he was not merely speaking in the figurative sense. He said: It seems only symbolic, but it is more. This was a reminder to see the body as earth, that there is not the whole body, only different elements. The four great elements and other rupas. Rahula was so attached to the body. Very important point. Pañña has to know nama and rupa, it cannot be avoided. Nina. 36628 From: connieparker Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:43am Subject: Re: the age of wisdom Dear Nina, In the discussion on 'the material septad', ch. XX, 50: 2.(b) Having attributed the three characteristics according to 'disappearance of what grows old in each stage' thus by means of the first stage, etc., he again attributes the three characteristics according to 'disappearance of what grows old in each stage' by means of the following ten decades: the tender decade, the sport decade, the beauty decade, the strength decade, the understanding decade, the decline decade, the stooping decade, the bent decade, the dotage decade and the prone decade. 51: Herein, as to these decades: in the first place, the first ten years of a person with a hundred years' life are called the tender decade; for then he is a tender unsteady child. the next ten years are called the sport decade; for he is very fond of sport then. The next ten years are called the beauty decade; for his beauty reaches its full extent then. The next ten years are called the strength decade; for his strength and power reach their full extent then. The next ten years are called the understanding decade; for his understanding is well established by then. Even in one naturally weak in understanding some understanding, it seems, arises at that time. The next ten years are called the decline decade; for his fondness for sport and his beauty, strength and understanding decline then. Then next ten years are called the stooping decade; for his figure [620] stoops forward then. The next ten years are called the bent decade; for his figure becomes bent like the end of a plough then. The next ten years are called the dotage decade; for his is doting then and forgets what he does. The next ten years are called the prone decade; for a centenarian mostly lies prone. 52: Herein, in order to attribute the characteristics according to 'disappearance of what grows old in each stage' by means of these decades, the meditator considers thus: The materiality occurring in the first decade ceases there without reaching the second decade: therefore it is impermanent, painful, not self. The materiality occurring in the second decade ... the materiality occurring in the ninth decade ceases there without reaching the tenth decade; the materiality occurring in the tenth decade ceases there without reaching the next becoming: therefore it is impermanent, painful, not self. - This is how he attributes the three characteristics. It goes on (53-60) to break the hundred years and a single year down in various ways, then (61-65) by changes in postures and elements/derived materiality/formations. There is the simile of the lamps' oil and wick (66-67) and then discussion on the materiality arising from nutriment, temperature, kamma and consciousness (68-73) and finally (74-75), natural materiality ("not bound up with faculties and arises along with the aeon of world expansion"), shown by the changing colours of the asoka tree shoot. Parts of Bangkok visit me! I had just mentioned 'the age of wisdom' to a friend in passing, thinking how lucky I am to have found such dhamma friends. Still, no 'my understanding' and only what little may arise to slowly accumulate as long as it is supported by material conditions growing old even as they arise, so a sense of urgency even if I am immature enough to hope there is still time. ;) As a friend said of parents, they are like our personal arahants. Even in repaying them, because they are such great fields of merit, our debt increases. peace, connie Nina wrote: lucky you. I read it somewhere in the Vis itself but would need time to search. Each decad is characterized, like the reclining age, but my father is not yet reclining. Decad of beauty, of strength. Do not take it too literally, it is never too late to develop understanding. I was in Bgk between forty and fifty. Nina. 36629 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:12am Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism ( 07 ) Continue-: Catalin: 13)Doesn't Karma eliminate free will? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Karma is not a Pali word. It is kamma that is Pali word. It is potential that exists because someone did something with impure volition. So it is nothing to do with 'free will'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: For example if X hurts Z then X is forced to hurt Z because Z mistakes from his past lives so the negative karma from Z is transfered to X? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. There is mistake in this statement. X hurts Z. In which way? a) X hurts Z without any unwholesome intention and it is just an incidental, X does not have any kamma that would give rise to effect in his future regarding this hurting. b) X hurts Z with the intention to hurt Z. There is no attraction from Z which invite X to hurt him because of Z's past kamma. But X hurts de novo. So X is responsible for his action and he now owns a new kamma. In both case, Z was hurt. he was hurt because he has past kamma. This kamma does not invite anyone to hurt Z. Anyone A, or B or C or ...V or W or X may hurt Z. Even non-beings may hurt Z because of Z's past kamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: And what if X is just evil and Z is good and was also good in his past lives , why is he suffering from another cause different than karma? And if karma decides everything, and every effect has a cause and causes cannot be created by human beings, isn't that a believe in a unchangeable destiny and the elimination of free will? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. You are wrong to assume these. There are kamma. Kamma exist in different form as the actions when beings did them were different. Kamma does not decide everything. But Kamma does decide what beings does and what they should receive for their action. Here on this earth and in this world, there are many destructions. Destruction of things does not have any kamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 14)Rebirth and karma-where are the proves they exist? They don't seem more real than the gods of ancient Greece or Santa Clauses... It is is true that every effect has a cause but there is no prove of the existence of good and bad outside a particular moral system (and moral systems can be different, and are in constant changing), so that means if in you society is bad to be gay then the gay karma is bad and if the society changes and being gay (for example) is good then also karma is positive? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are talking in the context of unreality. Topic: Being gay Being gay or not gay is not anything to give comment. But if they suffer, they are having the results of their past kamma. This is not related to society. But if societies have different opinions, their reflections on gayhood cause a further suffering. This is another kamma. If you are a gay and your current society does not allow or does not accept gay, you will be suffering because of unacceptance. If you move to another society where all are gays your sufferings regarding reflections will be less. But kamma in your past will not be lessened. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: Who decides what is good and what is bad and how much good and bad karma should be assigned to a particular deed? Like I said, karma and rebirth look like pure mythology. There is no one who decides good and bad. They are intrinsic nature. In Buddhism, there is no mythology. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: To be continued-: 36630 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:14am Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism ( 08 ) Continue-: Catalin: 15)How can we trust personal experiences through meditation and other Buddhist practices? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Your personal experiences is your own experiences and they are good examples. But if you do not have enough wisdom to analyse them, how far you should trust on your personal experiences will have some limitations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: An schizophrenic or someone who takes LSD or someone who stayed too much in the sun may meet Santa Claus, then that means that Santa Claus exists? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You have to prove Santa Claus first. Schizophrenics have perception problem. When perceptions are not right, they can see anything not only Santa Claus but anything imaginable. The same applies to intoxicants, alcohol and drugs. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: And some branches of Tibetan Buddhism even use some weird and questionable methods to attain "truth"... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If you really see what intrinsic nature of the natures, then you will no more have any queries. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 16)Why are sects like pure land Buddhism and nichiren Buddhism (especially SGI) (and even left hand tantra vajrayana Buddhism) considered as being "Buddhist"? Jainism and some Hindu sects are MUCH closer to Buddhism than them! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If wholeness is not well understood, then every part may be assumed as wholeness. There is only one and a single Buddhism. This is no doubt. As soon as someone thinks that there are 2 types, 3 types, 4 types, then they are no more original Buddhism. There are no 2 Buddhas. No 3 Buddhas. There is no Siddattha Gotama as The Buddha for Vajrayana, Hinayana, Mahayana. The Buddha did exist. His name was Siddattha Gotama. He discovered the way to reach nibbana. He left the messages how to reach nibbana. Hindus will be proud if it is said Hinduism is the oldest religion. The father of Siddattha Gotama, the stepmother of Siddhattha Gotama, and most people at that time in India were all Hindu with the exception of a few who practised Dogism, Oxism etc etc. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: To be continued-: 36631 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:15am Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism ( 09 ) Continues-: Catalin: 17)Is Buddhism part of the Hindu religion as some Hindus say who also see Buddha a reincarnations of their God? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. Totally wrong. Completely false. Hindus are all Attavadi while Buddhists are all Anattavadi. Atta and Anatta are opposite. Completely opposite. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 18)Can I be a Buddhist without a Buddhist community existing in my city and country and belonging only in "Internet shanghas" and having only web sites and groups like this one as teachers? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sure, Sir. As soon as you take refuge in The Buddha, The Dhamma, The Sangha, at least at that time you are a Buddhist. As soon as you disgard The Buddha, The Dhamma, The Sangha, you lose your refuge. How about those who are departing and joining? This is a separate issue. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: To be continued-: 36632 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:46am Subject: 21 questions about Buddhism ( 10 ) Continues-: Catalin: 19) If someones believes in the Buddhist philosophy and way of life but rejects Buddhist mythology (karma,rebirth,gods,etc.) is he a Buddhist? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You have to define your mythology here. Whatever reject, if you take refuge in The Buddha, The Dhamma and The Sangha, you will be a Buddhist. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: For example I see Buddhism paths as a way to reprogram the brain and lie it to become happy and stop fearing dead (reaching nirvana), am I a Buddhist(yes,I am a programmer and an engineer :) )? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The Path does not reprogram the brain. There is no brain in ultimate sense. The Path not only stop fear but also eradicate all the defilements and all the fetters. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: And I see karma as a moral law: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Karma is not a Pali word. It is kamma. Anyway, kamma is one of 5 natural laws. They are bija niyama, utuja niyama, kamma niyama, citta niyama and dhamma niyama. Nothing is outside of these 5 laws.And these 5 laws are not laid down by anyone but they are natural laws. No one including Sammasambuddhas can influence these laws. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: if you hurt someone then that someone may hurt you ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Are you thinking immediate effect? As soon as you hurt someone, you have already hurt yourself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: but for example if someone kills someone and no one knows or someones donates huge sums of money without anyone knowing then that person isn't affected in any good or bad way by any paranormal Karma force (maybe only his conscience is affected depending of his view of the world). ---------------- Htoo: Sorry for breakage. This long sentence is not clear at least for me and target cannot be found even though some other people found and replied them. I will be looking forward to Catalin's rephrasing on this long sentence. Will you, Catalin? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 20)Where can I find all the pali canon for download (in English) and also the main writings of the other main Buddhism schools (Zen, Tibetan,Tendai,Pure Land, etc.)?And also a guide with the names of these writings (for example "The pali Canon contains the sutras named X,Y,...")and what they contain and what is their importance in different schools(for example" the pali canon contains sutra X which is important for the Z school but unimportant for the A schools"). I found some collections of e-books but I don't know which belongs to pali canons and which to other schools and which is more important and which is less important to study. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is not a question to answer. You can choose your way. My personal opinion is that I would suggest you to explore the following sites. 1. www.buddhanet.net 2. www.accesstoinsight.org 3. www.metta.lk 4. www.nibbana.com 5. www.buddhism.mandalar.net ....etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: 21)Where are the best places on the Internet to place questions like these? I hope you will forgive my bad English and don't find any of my questions offensive. If this is not the right place to put these questions then I am sorry. Catalin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: dhamma-list, dhammastudygroup, DSList, triplegem, JourneyToNibbana, TeachingsOfBuddha, SariputtaDhamma, and many others. All your writing are legible and you used a good English. Questions are not offensive. And you have been polite as we all can see. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Catalin: PS: I chose to post to these 5 groups because from all the Buddhist groups from Yahoo they seem most active. I again apologize if I broke any rule but I don't know where else could I ask these questions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If you do not yet know the rules, read them. So far in these 21 questions, I did not find anything wrong. So I hope all questions and your way of asking is permissible hopefully by all groups, if not all at least most groups. And this is the end of answer sections to your 21 questions. I have to look for your response that is rephrasing of part of 20th question as I have suggested. May you benefit from these 21 answers. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36633 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:05am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 065 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Own correction has to be done as there is no one who saw the error pointing out. Sotapatti phala lokuttara vipaka citta is 86th citta of 89 cittas in total rather than 85th which is arahatta magga lokuttara kusala citta. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Gotrabhu citta is still kamavacara citta and it is still a puthujana's citta here. But it is the last citta in puthujanahood. So it is also called lineage-changing consciousness. As soon as gotrabhu passes away, sotapatti magga lokuttara kusala citta arises. This is the 82nd citta of 89 cittas in total. >After that 'sotapatti phala lokuttara vipaka citta' follows. There follow another two phala cittas and after that bhavanga cittas arise. These phala cittas are fruition consciousness resulting from sotapatti magga citta. This phala citta is 85th citta of 89 cittas in total. >May you all be free from suffering. >With Unlimited Metta >Htoo Naing 36634 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:43am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 066 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Now dhamma practitioner is sotapatti phalatthana puggala. He is now the second from the bottom in the list of sainthood. There are 8 ariya puggalas. 8 lokuttara cittas arise only in these 8 puggalas. Even though he is now a sotapanna, he is not in phala cittas all the time. He has to do all the routine as he always does. But now his lineage has been changed. He is no more puthujana. He does not have any doubt in The Buddha, The Dhamma, The Sangha. He does not have any wrong view. His defilements are not the same as he had. Now he is a stream-enterer. He is in the stream. That is the stream of dhamma flow and this flow will carry him to the ocean nibbana in not more than 7 rebirths and may be less than that if he attains further higher nanas. He knows that things are not like before. This is not they changed. But his view has been totally changed. There is no more wrong view. He has the right view. This right view makes him live in purity. He meditates on nama dhamma and rupa dhamma. He is in mahasatipatthana whenever he remembers. He has once passed the Path. Next time when he approaches the Path, he has much more powerful wisdom and he can penetrate more than he could. Because of his trying continuously in meditation, good mental factors are his friends even though sometimes there are some defilements. When he reproaches the Path, the necessary dhammas arise in him and he is well calm. He is mindful and he tries to cultivate the already existing his sotapatti magga nana to obtain higher nana. Once when there are necessary dhamma there, kamavacara mahakusala cittas arise in series one after another. At a time he lapses into bhavanga cittas. Bhavanga cittas are arrested by manodvaravajjana citta, which now sees dhamma as anatta and increases dispassion. After its passing away, there arise successive kamavacaramahakusala cittas in the names of parikamma (preparatory consciousness ), upacara( proximity consciousness ), anuloma (balancing-negotiating consciousness ). After anuloma citta, there arises gotrabhu citta which is a kamavacara mahakusala citta but having a lineage-changing capacity. As soon as it arises to leave sotapamhood and it passes away. After that sakadagami magga citta arises penetrating sufferings as sufferings, removing the cause of sufferings, seeing nibbana while Noble Eightfold Path is developing fully. This citta is called 'sakadagami magga lokuttara kusala citta'. It is 83rd citta of 89 cittas in total. After that without gap, its resultant consciousness called 'sakadagami phala lokuttara vipaka citta' arises. This citta is 87th citta of 89 cittas. There follow a further 2 successive sakadagami phala lokuttara citta if there was no parikamma citta. Now kilesas or defilements become much much more thinner than ever before. He is now a sakadagam. Sakadagami is composed of 'sakkim' and 'aagami'. Sakkim means once. Aagami means coming back to gama or sensuous worldly realm. He may be reborn in human realm once after this life. His last life will be in one of 5 suddhavasa catuttha jhana bhumis of ariyas where anagams and arahats dwell. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta Htoo Naing PS:Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36635 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Dear Azita, op 19-09-2004 13:02 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > IMO, this has been the best take on this subject. N: I agree. Long ago I asked Kh Sujin about women compared to a snake. She said: I just take such words as a reminder to be aware of my own defilements. That is why I am inclined to become very silent. There are many kinds of akusala accumulated as latent tendencies. These can suddenly condition very ugly akusala. True, it is a weaker vipaka to be born a woman. But women can become arahats. Nina. 36636 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka. op 19-09-2004 14:47 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: It sounds > quite odd to hear that pain is akusalavipaka, i.e. that all pain is > caused by past bad kamma. Rob M is helping me enormously with this > notion. He said (approximately) that the pain arises because the mind > is in the habit of adverting attention to the painful sensation > (natural decisive support condition -- NDSC). Without the NDSC, no > pain. N: For kamma to produce result as painful feeling it also needs NDSC. But I find this matter very intricate. A. Sujin mentioned this. I do not know about adverting to pain as a cause. D: Also, the NDSC for pain is bolstered by akusala citta. N: I cannot follow that. Nina. 36637 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Flip-flopping [Matt] Dear Dan, I appreciate your post, giving us more reminders while elaborating on Matt's words. Those are helpful discussions. Nina. op 19-09-2004 15:47 schreef Dan D. op onco111@y...: > The "recognize, recognize, recognize" leads to the impression "same, > same, same" which leads to an impression of continuous seeing. 36638 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eight attainments (attha samaapattiyo) Dear Christine, They are eight jhana attainments, rupajhana and arupa jhana. In this annotation I cannot find the sutta. Which part of S.N.? op 19-09-2004 09:48 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth1@b...: > I was reading a sutta called "The Counterfeit of the Dhamma" SN > 16.13 36639 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 0:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Dear Matt, appreciating your post very much. Very helpful. You point out what really matters in life! Nina. op 19-09-2004 10:00 schreef matt roke op mattroke@h...: > Whether women corrupted the sasana or not does not change what reality is > arising > and inpinging on the sense door right now. Whether the Buddha held those > views or > not, whether the Jataka Tales are true or fiction, whether the Teaching will > last 500 > or 5,000 years does not change what reality is arising and impinging on the > sense > door right now. > > In the citta moment that arises right now there is no Jataka Tales, no > women, no > men, no Bhikhunis, no sexist views and no self; male or female. > > Understanding the Dhamma negates the stories and that is what makes it so > beautiful > and its followers so unique. > > On a worldly note: women have been men before and will be them again and men > have been women before and will come back as them again. So we have all > probably lived through this debate countless times before. 36640 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 1:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eight attainments (attha samaapattiyo) Hello Nina, Thank you for that information. It is from Samyutta Nikaya II. The Book of Causation (Nidaanavagga)16.Kassapasa.myutta 13 The Counterfeit of the True Dhamma (B.Bodhi trans. p.681/2) It has the numbers [224] and [225] referring to other translations, I think. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Christine, > They are eight jhana attainments, rupajhana and arupa jhana. In this > annotation I cannot find the sutta. Which part of S.N.? > op 19-09-2004 09:48 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth1@b...: > > > I was reading a sutta called "The Counterfeit of the Dhamma" SN > > 16.13 36641 From: nori Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nipâta Hi Howard, H: > One more thing: The > Buddha did mention what an *enormous* debt a person owes to his/her parents, > even to the point, as I vaguely recall, of the appropriateness of carrying > them around on his/her shoulders. (As you point out, in the case of the > Bodhisatta, his parents were well off, and, so, his leaving them was not thoughtless > as regards their financial welfare.) > > With metta, > Howard Yes, I remember that Sutta. Went something like: 'Even if one were to carry both parents around on his shoulders, one would still not repay ones debt to his/her parents; for parents do much, endure much, for their children.' Something like that, its from memory. I think an important point maybe, is that one should not go forth if it is not appropriate for that one's life. I could imagine in some Buddhist countries, maybe, some parents being happy and proud for their child if they have chosen to go forth. In this case it is probably appropriate. However, what do you think about going forth if doing so worried and stressed the mother (even though being financially, and in other aspects secure)? Thanks for your valuable feedback. metta, nori 36642 From: Bill Saint-Onge Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nipâta Hello All, It seems that I read somewhere that a part of the Thai ordination proceedure was the bhikku-to-be confirming that both parents had given permission for him to go forth. I'm not sure if that's from suttas, or vinaya, or thai custom--or even that it's correct information :) With metta, Bill nori wrote: Hi Howard, H: > One more thing: The > Buddha did mention what an *enormous* debt a person owes to his/her parents, > even to the point, as I vaguely recall, of the appropriateness of carrying > them around on his/her shoulders. (As you point out, in the case of the > Bodhisatta, his parents were well off, and, so, his leaving them was not thoughtless > as regards their financial welfare.) > > With metta, > Howard Yes, I remember that Sutta. Went something like: 'Even if one were to carry both parents around on his shoulders, one would still not repay ones debt to his/her parents; for parents do much, endure much, for their children.' Something like that, its from memory. I think an important point maybe, is that one should not go forth if it is not appropriate for that one's life. I could imagine in some Buddhist countries, maybe, some parents being happy and proud for their child if they have chosen to go forth. In this case it is probably appropriate. However, what do you think about going forth if doing so worried and stressed the mother (even though being financially, and in other aspects secure)? Thanks for your valuable feedback. metta, nori 36643 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 4:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas HI Rob I was very interested to read about your and the toll booth operators. I think about this sort of thing a lot. > Over the past few weeks, I have developed a habit of smiling at toll > booth operators as I pass them. I find this to be a truly effective > way of putting metta into my daily life. The key words here are "developed a habit." I suspect that rather than deciding to smile at toll operators, you became aware one day that it was happening, and that conditioned these mindful moments of smiling. I would say that if someone read your post who had never practiced awareness of brahma-viharas and was impressed by your post and decided to go out and smile at strangers/neutral people in daily life, it wouldn't be the same. I think of the thing i posted recently from "Deeds of merit" in which K Sujin says that the rupa of the tone of voice is a reflection of the citta lying beneath, or words to that effect. I wonder if the same can be said for smiles. The rupa involved in the smile conditioned by citta beneath. Maybe the connection is not so direct. But certainly a smile arising from wholesome citta is different than a smile that is not. Of course one smile is the result of both wholesome and unwholesome cittas that are rising and falling in passing moments. For example, at my job I meet lots of new students in a week. They come and go, as I work for a kind of large chain school where students reserve 40 minute lessons based on their busy schedules. I have many students who are nervous, fatigued or disinterested-looking from the beginning. (Many businessmen are required by their companies to take English lessons whether they want to or not.) There is a lot of ice to break at times. I have become aware of the way a smile can do so much to break the ice, and there are times I take pride in my ability to coax smiles from the dourest of students. It happened the other day, actually. When I met the fellow he looked like a man with a big chip on his shoulder, and within minutes he was smiling. Now, there are both wholesome and unwholesome factors at work here. There is karuna, a concern for his obvious unhappiness at the beginning, and metta wishing him wellbeing. They do arise. But there is also a sense of self-pride at being such a skillful smile inducer. The unwholesome aspect doesn't take away from the wholesome aspect - I used to think it did. Now I understand (in theory at least) that there is kusala and akusala rising and falling all the time, and the idea of having a stretch of undiluted kusala is wrong understanding. In your case, because you have done a lot of work on eradicating defilements that are hindrances to metta, I suspect that metta arises more often in its pure form than it does for me but I'm sure you'll agree that there are akusala cittas at work at times as well. Well, no kidding. >Whether they smile back or not is a function > of their own accumulations and their own kamma and should not impact > my mental state. Using this technique, I foster equanimity. They *always* smile back at me! Keep working on it. (wink) Seriously, this equanimity is so important. As I've posted often enough before, upekkha forms the core of my brahma-viharas contemplations. It is the starting point, tied in with right understanding at the intellectual level of the four noble truths and the three characteristics. BTW, I found a nice line from K Sujin today in the phrases that Sarah compiled (available at zolag) "Panna which performs the function of detachment is the highest meaning of upekkha." I guess what you are talking about above implies detachment from a desire for results from your smiles. > When the toll booth operator smiles back at me, there is sympathetic > joy in their minds which momentarily pushes aside any thoughts of > judgment (of drivers) or boredom. I would have to disagree with this. We can't know the other's cittas. For all you know, there may be conceit and even sexual desire in the other brought on by your smile! Beware!!! That smile of yours could lead to the downfall of the toll booth operator's happy family life! Seriously, of course it's true that the possibility that there will be mudita for the other increases, but I don't think it can be assumed. > Often, the toll booth operators smile back at me. I strive not to be > excited when they do smile back and I strive not to be let down when > they do not smile back. > Sometimes, I imagine the daily work routine of a toll booth operator > is not that pleasant. I have compassion and I hope that my smile > will provide a few moments of pleasure in a generally monotonous day. I really enjoy reading your occasional posts about brahma-viharas, Rob. I sometimes think they are an underappreciated aspect of the Buddha's teaching. > May Dhamma practice be part of your daily life. > > Metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha, > Rob M :-) Back at you! Phil 36644 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 5:54pm Subject: Deeds of merit - When rendering service can there be dosa? Hello all More from "Deeds of Merit" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket, available at http://www.zolag.co.uk/meri2.html We continue in the area of rendering service (veyyaavaca), one of the deeds of merit that fall under sila. In the following exchange, "W" is Ms. Wandhana. W. : Why are there no lobha, dosa or moha while we intend to help other people, for example, by guiding children across the road? S. : If you only think of yourself, of your own pleasure and convenience, you will certainly not guide children across the road. When you are helping others there are cittas with loving kindness or compassion. There is loving kindness if you wish for the happiness of the person you are helping, and there is compassion if you wish him to be free from suffering [27. While you give assistance to others there cannot be dosa, aversion, annoyance or anger, at the same time, otherwise you would give up helping, you could not accomplish the giving of assistance. ** Ph: "While you give assistance to others there cannot be dosa, aversion, annoyance or anger, at the same time, otherwise you would give up helping, you could not accomplish the giving of assistance." Certainly there can be lobha. We know that we felt a pleasure from doing deeds that is not always wholesome. "I am such a good person!" And it seems to me there can be dosa as well. The irritation we feel when we feel obliged to help someone. For example, when I'm in a train and tired and wanting to nap but offer my seat to a mother (usually) with an infant child. There is irritation, but I do it, and doing it helps someone. There is also wholesome concern for the wellbeing of the mother and child involved. Wholesome and unwholesome cittas in quick succession. There is irritation at times when I teach my English students because some of them have very irritating habits (who doesn't?) but I never fail to teach what needs to be taught, and there is a lot of smiling going on. There are wholesome factors at work when the irritation give way to considerate teaching, but then the irritation arises again, and so on, and so on. But I suppose at those times of irritation there is not veyyaavaca (rendering service) in a way that is a deed of merit. It is not kusala if there is irritation arising. Perhaps there are moments of veyyaavaca based in wholesome citta in between the moments of unwholesome aversion. As I said in a post to Rob M (tollbooth operators) I think it might be wrong understanding to think that there can be stretches of only kusala or only akusala happening in what we perceive to be one continuous action with a certain jati. Before coming across Abhidhamma, I'm sure I would think of deeds as only good, or only bad. It's not so simple, I think now. Metta, Phil 36645 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 7:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Al, (Howard at the end), > op 18-09-2004 00:15 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: > > Regarding Chapter four of Nina's 'Abhidharma in Daily Life,' > > Eradication of craving. > ================ > > There is craving in the lobha-mula-cittas. How do we eradicate this > > lobha, this craving. I was told previously that mere recognition of > > the citta can decrease its bearing on the mind. But how are we to > > root out the craving. Is it the same for craving? From my current > > understanding, only when we are seeing things in the present as > > impermanent and selfless will there be no craving present. Please > > correct me if this is not the case. > N: Phil also touched on this point. When kusala citta with daana arises, > there is no craving at that moment. Each kusala citta is accompanied by > alobha, non-attachment. When we reflect on the Dhamma there is no craving. > The person who attains the third stage of enlightenment, the non-retuner has > eradicated clinging to sense objects. All kinds of craving can only be > eradicated by the arahat. He is liberated from the cycle. The links of > ignorance and craving are cut off. I am going to concede this point, it does not seem reasonable that practitioners will have *no* craving just by seeing the impermanence and selflessness of things, perhaps it means something different? That there is no new craving arising, but that deeply entrenched craving has yet to be rooted out - as you pointed out, the non-returning has eradicated craving to sense objects, I'm sure the arahant has eradicated all craving. But this leaves me in a tizzy here because I've read in MN 130, Divine Messengers, that good people in this world, when warned by Divine Messengers, do not dwell in negligence, but practise well the noble dharma, and 'clinging they look upon with fear, for it produces birth and death.' Doesn't this suggest that clinging (and under it, craving) is dealt with at an earlier level, even before attainments, or could the passage just be taken literally that they look upon clinging with fear, until it is all eradicated? Either way, I will bring back the sentiment of my previous post, wherein I feel just sitting here at my computer neglecting work and myself does indeed constitute negligence, and aside from a sitting session of 20 minutes a day, I am still dwelling in negligence, and not one of those who practises well the noble dharma. It is a cause for concern and while I wish to have an understanding, I am willing to put my trust in the author of a very good practise guide that I have and practise dharma as outlined there.. Just a matter of when I can establish myself in some stable meditation for appropriate reflection(s) and practise. > > Wrong view. > ======== > A: Next, is wrong views. This is something that captures my interest. > > The book I am trying to practise out of, a commentary on the > > Maha-satipatthana sutta, states that we need knowledge of Abhidharma > > for the third foundation of mindfulness, that is, contemplation of > > mind. > N: The same is true for the other foundations of mindfulness. I would say, a > basic knowledge of citta, cetasika and rupa is most helpful. > > A: Now I have felt that I could recognize one of these wrong > > views, ditthis, as it arose in me. If I could recognize which citta > > it accompanied, even better (this should happen as I memorize the > > different types of citta). > N: We cannot find out much so long as we do not even know the difference > between nama and rupa, the first stage of tender insight. To cut you off here, I am going to again stress how very important I think right view is. We have two ways of going at it here, well, many ways that I'll divide into two categories: The ways listed by Venerable Sariputta in MN 9, stating that when a disciple understands any of: dependent origination, the sixfold sense-base, contact, the bases of nutriment, or the four noble truths (and some others), he has right view. But in MN 42, the Buddha lists the ten courses of action by body, speech, and mind, that lead to a favorable rebirth. One of them is right view, which he described like this: >He has right view, undistorted vision, thus: 'There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed, and there is fruit and ripening of good and bad kammas, and there is this world and the other world and mother and father and spontaneously (born) beings, and good and virtuous monks and brahmans that have themselves realized by direct knowledge and declared this world and the other world.'< I don't think that any of the vipassana nanas are necessary to have this view, it was to householders after all. Do you propose that we can only come to this view, or at least a partial semblence of it, through the practise of dharma and gaining insight-knowledges? And I do think that the Buddha made it very clear when he said "right view, undistorted vision," that it is plainly seeing reality, not intellectual knowledge. Now, I won't be one to say that you can get this through mere sight, but to me it is clearly just having a straight view of reality as opposed to being nihilistic about the whole thing. I would assert that some aspects of right view can be taken up just by staying present and trying to acquire vision of what really is, that there is mother and father, when you are given a gift that there is something given, and having confidence in monks and nuns who have practised to a high level of realization. Now, I will share an experience I had that you will have to judge for yourself, and take your opinion of me based on what I've said to this group so far, to believe or disbelieve, or form some opinion on. I had been practising vipassana for some weeks in my bedroom and on my back porch at nights after reading Bhante Gunaratana's bestselling 'Mindfulness in Plain English.' At some point, I fell ill, and had to be taken to a psychiatric hospital where I stayed as on an inpatient unit. Although knowing that my meditation was not proper since I had become ill, I figured I could still do some meditation, and take refuge in what I knew. So I was meditating on my bed, meditating a lot, and as a spiritually immature person I would open my eyes to see various things if an occassion for due attention arose. Well, I must have been in just a plain old "good" meditative state of mind, or maybe meditation is just plainly "good," because the Christian man sharing a room with me yelled out something very silly to get my attention and I saw literally an angelic halo around his head with a thin line going back to his body. This man is on his way to heaven, I knew. So that contributes to my right view, that there is a next world, anyway, and has probably influenced me to do good deeds I might not otherwise have done. I guess it's safe to say I have 'mixed' view at this point, leading to both good and bad courses of action. We always hear about in the Pali canon those people who had 'wrong view', reviled the noble ones, and took actions in effect of their wrong views, have reappeared in the bad destination.. hell, etc. And the opposite for beings who held right view and did not revile the noble ones. So this right view is important, it's what motivates us to do actions, even what shapes our courses of action by body, speech, and mind. Know there's a next world, and beings that reappear according to their actions, and you're probably going to go out of your way to do good. Think it's all for naught, say 'Siddartha Sucks' as I've heard it put, and you are probably not going to keep a close watch on your conduct of body, speech, and mind. So it's important that we develop right view, that we *know* in our hearts that these things are true. I don't know how knowledge or vision of spontaneously reappearing beings can come about. Actually I have a few more 'incidents' like the one previously described that I can share if anyone would like to hear, they probably all contribute to my right view. So lastly, I will say, I do not think that vision of the fruit and result of good and bad actions comes as a result of a vipassana nana, but should be undistorted vision, of the actual phenomenon, just as one can have a view that they have a mother and father. So I am still not entirely clear on how talking with monks can settle this out, or what other practise it is that will give us clear vision that there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is something to be said for intellectual right view, but it's not a very solid substitute for the real thing, IMO. We need to have a strong grounding in reality to proceed with our spiritual lives. > A: But how am I to know which wrong view it > > is, ie an eternal self wrong view (further, does this eternal self > > wrong view hold that the body is a self, or does it apply to all > > phenomenon?), the annihilation self view, and wrong view about kamma > > and vipaka, thinking purification can come about through rites and > > rituals. Especially the last one, I wouldnt be able to recognize that > > such a wrong view was present in my mind. > N: That is very good. It helps to know that we are inclined to manipulate > sati so long as we are not sotapannas. It also helps to know that this is > not the way. I can't help but feel you didn't answer the question. I do need to recognize wrong views as they are present in my mind, don't I? Or at least when sati does arise, know which they are so I can understand which is present, right? So I don't know how to recognize which wrong view each one is. Why else did you list them in your book Abhidharma in Daily life if not so we can recognize them? > A: ....does absence of wrong view indicate right view is > > present? I wouldn't think so. > N: There are many levels of right view or pañña. There is no wrong view at a > moment of intellectual understanding. But, the latent tendency is there. I'm gonna bite my tongue, so to speak, on this one because I'm not very experienced with the Abhidharma, and you have been writing about it for years or even decades and likely been exchanging your views and knowledge on it for the same term so I will defer to you here. > > A: So how do we go about instilling right > > view in ourselves? > N: So, we have to be careful here. Before we know it, there is an idea of > self who wants to do this.B Ugh this always gets to me. (Don't let this seem like I'm taking my frustration out on you, this is to all people who say 'wrong view of self') Of course I have wrong view of self until I am sotapanna, so aren't I to operate with what I have? That is, the idea "Andrew will do such and such. Andrew will practise this way, Andrew will be mindful of this much rupa" or is it better to speak in terms of "when this arises, we can understand this, and more of this conditions more of that." To acquaint you with the style I've been practising, I've been reading from a commentary to the Maha-Satipatthana sutta, which gives a description of what mindfulness is, and instructs you to be mindful of such an such a phenomenon in your body or mind. And it stresses that a high, even complete level of mindfulness is necessary. This is in accordance with how I learned to practise vipassana in prior times wherein mindfulness is intentionally cultivated by consistent effort. I accept that sati can come and go when conditions are right, but I think, for instance, that I can be intend to be more mindful of the posture of my body and its smaller movements and positionings, or I can meditate in a fashion where I can be heedful of the qualities of my mind. Please let me know what you guys view on this is so we can get some reconciliation going. >But your question is good. As intellectual > understanding grows, there will be less conditions for coarse wrong view, of > the intellectual level. But when there are conditions for direct awareness > and understanding sati and paññaa arise and they are more effective in > wearing out wrong view. Well then , What are the conditions . Can we cultivate them? If not, then we will just have to go with what comes. Personally, I don't know that my intellectual understanding will grow anytime soon-- I have difficulty understanding things in general-- it's just the way I am, I can't read a book and get a thorough understanding of the material. I can follow instructions in a practise guide, though. > > A: For instance, the Buddha has said right view is > > 'undistorted vision' of the existence of this world, the next... There is > > also the wrong view of seeing 'self' in things. The latter type can > > be annihilated through meditation, I believe, but that only works to > > an extent on the former. > N: There are two kinds of meditation or bhaavana: samatha and vipassana. > Only through vipassana wrong view of self can be eradicated. Right but this is only one type of wrong view. Please see above for the others. > > A:.... I have heard it said that we can > > straighten our views by questioning monks and reading good dhamma > > books, but I plainly don't see how this is the case. It seems to me > > it should be experiential, ie, when you give, you should know that > > there is something given, you should know there is mother and father. > N: Straightening our views, a good topic. It is the tenth basis of kusala. > There are many levels again. It can go together with each kind of kusala. > When you speak words of appreciation to your parents with kusala citta, it > is a form of dana. At that moment the citta knows the benefit of kusala. > That is a level of straightening one's views. I will give you this. I was kind to my parents earlier today and I think it gave me the benefit of seeing my views that are in there, right, wrong, or whatever they are! Generosity indeed. Perhaps we can talk about that in another thread. > You wrote to Phil: different moments will > decrease it and hoping that I can do it.> > The noticing will not do it, alas. Actually, I should not say alas, it is a > good thing. It shows us that we are not possessor of the cittas nor of > kusala or akusala. > As Howard said: defilements > are not-self is sufficient for their removal, but rather is *necessary* for > that. It is one requisite condition, because "so long as we take defilements > for self or 'mine' they cannot be eradicated" - that is, so long as they are > taken as personal and intrinsic, removal is blocked.> > We should see defilement as just dhamma, as an impersonal element, arising > because of its own conditions. We can reflect on what we read in the suttas: > the sotapanna has eradicated wrong view, not the other forms of lobha. He > can laugh and cry, has all kinds of emotions. But he does not have coarse > akusala. To me this makes a lot of sense. > Defilements are so stubborn, think of the latent tendencies, they can > condition the arising of akusala citta at anytime. And very sudden and > unexpectedly too. The eradication can only be stage by stage. > Nina. But didn't you say in ADL that when we know the underlying tendencies of dosa or lobha when we get engaged in frivolous talk we can lessen them? Or something to that effect? Are you getting this? Why do I feel like I'm talking to a machine? be happy and peaceful, andrew levin 36646 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 7:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Japanese temples. Hello Nina (and Lodewijk) > Hi Phil, > Lodewijk says Nara is no 1. Also Kyoto all around, and Kamakura. We stayed > for a night in a temple in Koyasan. We liked the simple life there. I talked > to some monks. But it was not easy to talk on Dhamma to monks. They were > always very kind. Ph: Thanks Nina. Nara is my favourite as well. I lived in Osaka for one year about 10 years ago and went to Nara several times a month to walk in the deer park and visit the great Buddha at Todaiji. At that time I didn't have anything resembling a sincere interest in Buddhism, and I was always drinking beer as I wandered. It would be good to go back again but it is so expensive to travel in Japan. The only ordained Buddhist I have met in Japan was a student who described herself as the youngest nun at Soka Gakai. She had a gold sticker that she gave to other students that she said would make them rich. She was a nun decked out in Prada goods and gold. She said she didn't understand why Japanese people had lost their enthusiasm for Buddhism. Somehow I held my tongue. Thanks also for your feedback about dhammapda 1:1 and cittas. Very helpful. Metta, Phil 36647 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 7:52pm Subject: Re: Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Hi guys, Relatively new Buddhist here. When you develop the Brahma-Viharas, for them to become truly 'divine abidings' do you not have to not only meditate on the feeling, but have it pervade your mind, and even send it out to all four quarters around you? Isn't it then, and only then, a divine abiding? Or at least this is how it is supposed to be developed on the discourse on good will or metta, to expect the elevent described benefits from it. I say this especially because I can think of an evil deed or few the negative karma of which wasn't dissolved by mere 'love' i've had (not to say love isn't a great thing) but i think would be if i really dwelled with an awareness imbued with good will in each direction, as the buddha says a noble disciple abides. like it kind of seems difficult to picture, even for me, and i've done the same thing with harmlessless, that is, sending out thoughts of love and harmlessness in a few directions even over a mile from my house, but if one can get onesself together i would think that it's possible. not only that but you're instructed to maintain it in all four postures and doing whatever you're doing. man good will is great. good will and practising dharma, can't say enough about those two. peace guys, AL --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > > HI Rob > > I was very interested to read about your and the toll booth operators. I > think about > this sort of thing?a lot. > > > Over the past few weeks, I have developed a habit of smiling at toll > > booth operators as I pass them. I find this to be a truly effective > > way of putting metta into my daily life. > > The key words here are "developed a habit." I suspect that rather than > deciding to smile > at toll operators, you became aware one day that it was happening, and that > conditioned > these mindful moments of smiling. I would say that if someone read your post > who had never practiced > awareness of brahma-viharas and was impressed by your post and decided to go > out and smile > at strangers/neutral people in daily life, it wouldn't be the same. > > I think of the thing i posted recently from "Deeds of merit" in which K > Sujin says that the rupa of the tone of voice > is a reflection of the citta lying beneath, or words to that effect. I > wonder if the same can be said for > smiles. The rupa involved in the smile conditioned by citta beneath. Maybe > the connection is not so direct. > But certainly a smile arising from wholesome citta is different than a smile > that is not. > > Of course one smile is the result of both wholesome and unwholesome cittas > that are rising and falling in > passing moments. > For example, at my job I meet lots of new students in a week. They come > and go, as I work for a kind of large > chain school where students reserve 40 minute lessons based on their busy > schedules. I have many students who > are nervous, fatigued or disinterested-looking from the beginning. (Many > businessmen are required by their companies to take English lessons > whether they want to or not.) There is a lot of ice to break at times. I > have become aware of the way a smile can do so much > to break the ice, and there are times I take pride in my ability to coax > smiles from the dourest of students. It happened > the other day, actually. When I met the fellow he looked like a man with a > big chip on his shoulder, and within minutes he > was smiling. Now, there are both wholesome and unwholesome factors at work > here. There is karuna, a concern for his obvious unhappiness at the > beginning, and metta wishing him wellbeing. They do arise. But there is also > a sense of self-pride at being such a skillful smile inducer. The > unwholesome aspect > doesn't take away from the wholesome aspect - I used to think it did. Now I > understand (in theory at least) that there is kusala and akusala rising and > falling all the time, and the idea of having a stretch of undiluted kusala > is wrong understanding. > > In your case, because you have done a lot of work on eradicating > defilements that are hindrances to metta, I suspect that metta arises more > often in its pure form than it does for me but I'm sure you'll agree that > there are akusala cittas at work at times as well. Well, no kidding. > > >Whether they smile back or not is a function > > of their own accumulations and their own kamma and should not impact > > my mental state. Using this technique, I foster equanimity. > > They *always* smile back at me! Keep working on it. (wink) > > Seriously, this equanimity is so important. As I've posted > often enough before, upekkha forms the core of my > brahma-viharas contemplations. It is the starting point, tied in > with right understanding at the intellectual level of the four noble truths > and the three characteristics. > BTW, I found a nice line from K Sujin today in the phrases that Sarah > compiled (available at zolag) "Panna which performs the function of > detachment > is the highest meaning of upekkha." I guess what you are talking about > above > implies detachment from a desire for results from your smiles. > > > > When the toll booth operator smiles back at me, there is sympathetic > > joy in their minds which momentarily pushes aside any thoughts of > > judgment (of drivers) or boredom. > > I would have to disagree with this. We can't know the other's cittas. For > all > you know, there may be conceit and even sexual desire in the other brought > on by your > smile! Beware!!! That smile of yours could lead to the downfall of the toll > booth operator's > happy family life! > Seriously, of course it's true that the possibility that there will be > mudita for the > other increases, > but I don't think it can be assumed. > > > > Often, the toll booth operators smile back at me. I strive not to be > > excited when they do smile back and I strive not to be let down when > > they do not smile back. > Sometimes, I imagine the daily work routine of a > toll booth operator > > is not that pleasant. I have compassion and I hope that my smile > > will provide a few moments of pleasure in a generally monotonous day. > > I really enjoy reading your occasional posts about brahma-viharas, Rob. I > sometimes think > they are an underappreciated aspect of the Buddha's teaching. > > > May Dhamma practice be part of your daily life. > > > > Metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha, > > Rob M :-) > > > Back at you! > > Phil 36648 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Hi Andrew > When you develop the Brahma-Viharas, for them to become truly 'divine > abidings' do you not have to not only meditate on the feeling, but > have it pervade your mind, and even send it out to all four quarters > around you? Isn't it then, and only then, a divine abiding? Or at > least this is how it is supposed to be developed on the discourse on > good will or metta, to expect the elevent described benefits from it. Ph: I practiced in the above way for about a year until I realized (get ready for it!) that in fact it was a self-pleasing exercise that I was using to make the world a more pleasant place to be in. I think the descriptions in the suttas of pervading in all directions are for those who have eradicated (get ready for another UGH!) wrong view of self. I don't say this because I am just reapeating what I've learned from other people. It was from insight into my own experience. The brahma-viharas are wonderful, but I think they are often used in an overly-intentional way that strengthens self view. A comforting way. Now, that's not a bad place to start, but at a certain point I think understanding grows that metta and karuna and the others arise or don't arise in a conditioned way. This is just this beginner's view (and experience.) I feel metta et al are far more variable when they are appreciated as anatta and annica. I really don't understand how one can decide to sit down and pervade metta in all directions without self at the centre of things. On the other hand, when metta arises suddenly during a busy day, there is a great sense of well-being and gratitude to the Buddha for teaching anatta, which is really where our liberation lies, not in any self-directed activities. It seems Rob M has a more intentional approach to brahma-viharas, and obviously you should be listening to him with more attention than to me. > I say this especially because I can think of an evil deed or few the > negative karma of which wasn't dissolved by mere 'love' i've had (not > to say love isn't a great thing) Ph: "Love" is so loaded with cultural associations. I think of metta as friendliness. I feel it arising naturally when barriers are down thanks to a certain degree of right understanding. If that person is -in the absolute sense- an aggregate of rupa and nama (and I have had insight into that, as described in that other post) what is stopping me from being friendly? Where is the barrier? If that person is yanked around by wrong view the same way I am, we are in the same boat, and friendliness arises. but i think would be if i really > dwelled with an awareness imbued with good will in each direction, as > the buddha says a noble disciple abides. like it kind of seems > difficult to picture, even for me, and i've done the same thing with > harmlessless, that is, sending out thoughts of love and harmlessness > in a few directions even over a mile from my house, but if one can get > onesself together i would think that it's possible. not only that but > you're instructed to maintain it in all four postures and doing > whatever you're doing. Ph: Above I said that I now doubted this practice, but your description brings back how wonderful it was while I was doing it. I would go out from my house too, in the nieghbourhood, all around Japan, all around the world, and then the world would become a glowing seed in the Buddha's hand. I do believe visualization is valuable and healing. I remember one day I hurried out to work after doing this, and a man walking towards me smiled and nodded. And then I realized I was smiling without knowing it. That metta session had conditioned this smile to arise without my knowing it, and the man responded to it. (It's very rare in urban or suburban areas of Japan for strangers to greet each other) It was great. And yet, as I said above, I came to see that what I was doing was trying to pain the world in metta. I was trying to avoid unpleasant mental states. I would go for walks in the local park and kind of beam metta around me. I just can't see that being right practice. Later, when better understanding (in my opinion) arose, I would go for walks, and be aware of aversion arising, say because of a man spitting, and then metta for this and mudita for that and more metta and karuna and a lot of indifferent stretches in between. Aware of these moments coming and going in an unconntrolled way. And this helps me to cultivate wisdom that will eradicate hindrances, starting with the coarse ones, and this will allow metta to flow more freely without the need to generate it at home. That's just my take. Metta, Phil p.s I always sign of with "metta" but it's just a habit. There may or may not be metta involved. Usually when I send a post there's a lot of self-pleasure at the way I am putting things, or restlessness, or other unwholesome factors. And sometimes metta. AH! I just felt metta! Time to push the send button! fast! 36649 From: Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nipâta Hi, Nori - In a message dated 9/19/04 6:58:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > However, what do you think about going forth if doing so worried and > stressed the mother (even though being financially, and in other > aspects secure)? ====================== At least in the Theravada tradition, as far as I know, one *may not* go forth without parental approval. (And I mean for adults too!) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36650 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the age of wisdom Dear Connie, Thank you, I remember now. Thank you for the reminders. Not my understanding. And a sense of urgency, Nina. op 19-09-2004 17:43 schreef connieparker op connieparker@i...: > > Parts of Bangkok visit me! I had just mentioned 'the age of wisdom' to a > friend in passing, thinking how lucky I am to have found such dhamma > friends. Still, no 'my understanding' and only what little may arise to > slowly accumulate as long as it is supported by material conditions > growing old even as they arise, so a sense of urgency even if I am > immature enough to hope there is still time. ;) > > As a friend said of parents, they are like our personal arahants. Even in > repaying them, because they are such great fields of merit, our debt > increases. 36651 From: plnao Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Hello again Andrew, and all Banged that last message off before running out on an errand. Would have been better to leave it until I got back, but this topic really interests me and there was no resisting. A bit of a refinement on what I wrote before: I think the descriptions in the suttas of > pervading in all > directions are for those who have eradicated (get ready for another UGH!) > wrong > view of self. Ph: Not eradicated, of course. That would mean sotapanna. Perhaps eradicated or at least loosening of the roots of some coarse defilements? I'm not sure. It's just that I sense that some of the meditation practices described in the suttas are not for everyone - not yet. I think of the precepts. We usually take them as prohibitions from the Buddha, but I feel they represent a description of the way enlightened people behave. And thus this "pervading in all directions" is for me a description of an enlightened person rather than a prescription for an intentional activity. Of course I realize that anyone who read the sutta for the first time would see it as a prescription. Just not for me, yet. I am too heavily wrapped in self to do meditation now without it being an exercise in self-pleasure and the desire of self to get something out of it that would qualify me as a talented Buddhist. But in some lifetime - maybe this one - conditions will arise for me to meditate without self being at the center of it. Re "abides" - the brahma-viharas are described as divine abides. I take this to mean that we will come to abide in them as we eradicate defilements. It's not like we move in and will our new home into taking shape around us. Gradually we move in without even being aware that it's happening. Very gradually. The barriers caused by hindrances, defilements fall away, and we come to abide in metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha in line with our progress along the path. The abiding arises. We can't move in until we are moved in by conditions. That's my feeling about it these days. I think the arising of these abides is a very wonderful thing and along with the paramis (Perfections), they answer the question "What's the Buddha like?" Also it has to be noted, as someone will, that the brahma-viharas are usually treated in the context of jhanas, so the pervading in all directions that is mentioned in those suttas is probably referring to something to be done in jhanas. But then again, maybe not - there is no mention of jhanas in the portion of the Kalama Sutta that is devoted to brahma-viharas. A few typos in my last post, as usual: "Paint" the world in metta, not "pain the world." Metta and karuna are more valuable when they arise on their own, not "variable." (though that is true, come to think of it. More insight through typos.) Metta, Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "plnao" To: Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas > > Hi Andrew > > > > When you develop the Brahma-Viharas, for them to become truly 'divine > > abidings' do you not have to not only meditate on the feeling, but > > have it pervade your mind, and even send it out to all four quarters > > around you? Isn't it then, and only then, a divine abiding? Or at > > least this is how it is supposed to be developed on the discourse on > > good will or metta, to expect the elevent described benefits from it. > > Ph: I practiced in the above way for about a year until I realized (get > ready for it!) > that in fact it was a self-pleasing exercise that I was using to make the > world a > more pleasant place to be in. I don't say this because I am just reapeating what I've > learned from other > people. It was from insight into my own experience. 36653 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:59pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner15-Contact /Phassa(a) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== ***** Part I The Universals Chapter I Contact (phassa) ******* A citta cannot arise alone, it has to be accompanied by cetasikas. When there is seeing, citta cognizes visible object and the cetasikas which accompany the citta also experience visible object. The citta is the "leader", while the cetasikas which share the same object perform each their own task. The cetasikas have each their own characteristic (lakkhanam: specific or generic attribute) function (rasa: function or achievement), manifestation (paccupat-thana: manifestation, appearance or effect) and proximate cause (padatthanam) (Expositor I, Part II, Chapter I, 65). There are many conditions for the different phenomena which appear, but the "proximate cause" or immediate occasion is mentioned in particular when the cetasikas are defined in the commentaries, the Atthasalini (The Expositor) and the Visuddhimagga. There are seven cetasikas which have to arise with every citta; they are called the "universals" (sabbacitta-sadharana). Some cittas are accompanied only by the universals, others are accompanied by several more cetasikas in addition. Thus, every citta is accompanied by at least the seven universals. ***** [Contact (Phassa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 36654 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 0:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner15-Contact /Phassa(a) Hi RobK & Nina, I just reposted the first segment for Phassa because after posting it I found a an error copied from the version on the website which could be rather misleading. It has a line referring to '12 cetasikas' after The Universals below, obviously not correct and not in the book. For those who get the messages in their in boxes, pls ignore the first one. S. --- sarah abbott wrote: > > Part I > The Universals > > Chapter I > Contact (phassa) > ******* 36655 From: plnao Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 0:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner15-Contact /Phassa(a) Hello all >. The cetasikas have each their own characteristic > (lakkhanam: specific or generic attribute) function (rasa: function or > achievement), manifestation (paccupat-thana: manifestation, appearance or > effect) and proximate cause (padatthanam) (Expositor I, Part II, Chapter > I, 65). On this point, here is an exchange from a recent post that might be helpful: (Ken H)> > I can understand that, but I didn't realize dhammas could be known > > only by their characteristics. Just to clarify: Are their > > functions, manifestations and proximate causes never directly > > experienced? > N: Take seeing. Its function is seeing, dassana kicca. It can be directly > experienced, but no need to think of function or manifestation. These are > merely taught to help us to have more understanding of seeing. It is a good > foundation of pariyatti to study these things. Metta, Phil 36656 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 0:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: CSC 4-[Sarah: "citta is..."] Hi Dan, Sorry - I've got behind with reading and replies... --- "Dan D." wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > I don't follow you when you write: "many kinds of right view/right > understanding (see Vism,beg ch X1V), not just satipatthana, but > you're right about mundane and supramundane rt und. in MN117." > > What I see in the beginning of vism XIV is: "Understanding (pañña) is > of many sorts and has various aspects. An answer that attempted to > explain it all would accomplish neither its intention nor its > purpose, and would, besides, lead to distraction; so we whall confine > ourselves to the kind intended here, which is understanding > consisting insight knowledge associated with profitable > consciousness." There is no indication how the other kinds would > consititute "Right view". In particular, I don't see how the > beginning of pages of Vism. XIV support any notion of a "conceptual > right view." Am I missing something? ... S: "Understanding (pañña) is of many sorts and has various aspects" - eg in samatha development. Concepts as object such as the qualities of the Buddha or the Dhamma or any of the other objects. But in this section of the Vism, it is just understanding (insight) of vipassana which is being discussed. Remember, panna accompanies all moments of bhavana (samatha and vipassana). My point was that in MN117, like in Vism under 'Understanding', it is insight (vipassana)- mundane and supramundane which is being referred to as you rightly stressed. Let me know if this doesn't answer your qu clearly enough or if I've misunderstood you. Metta, Sarah ====== 36657 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner13-Introduction(j) Hi Azita, I always enjoy your posts. --- gazita2002 wrote: > > Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. > > > ......... > The realities of our life, including out > > defilements, should be understood as not self. So long as we take > > defilements for self or "mine" they cannot be eradicated. The direct > > understanding of realities as non-self is the condition for not > doing > > evil, for cultivating the good and for purifying one's mind. > > ***** > > A:> How does this direct understanding become a condition for 'us' > to do no evil, etc? .... S: I understand that while there’s clinging to the idea of self, there’s no development of detachment. So along with the lessening of the grip of sakkaya-ditthi (self-view) is the development of understanding with detachment from any conditioned dhammas appearing. This is the way they are seen more clearly for what they are --the value of kusala and the danger of akusala included. Whilst we cling to ‘my kindness’ and so on or ‘my defilements’ which are so bad and so on, no detachment or wisdom which can really see them for what they are - conditioned, impermanent dhammas of no lasting importance, not belonging to anyone. Also as Matt stressed (and you rightly encouraged), not just kusala and akusala but any realities appearing have to be understood in order for views of people and things to be eradicated. .... A:> It sort of makes sense to me, but as there are still defilements > _surely there are still the conditions for them to arise, and do > evil? no? > Maybe the evil performed is a lesser degree than if no > understanding. Maybe I've answered my own question!!! .... S: Right. Without wrong view, they cannot be as strong and insight arises in between. As we know, many kinds of evil can no longer be performed by a sotapanna for this reason. .... > Patience, courage and good cheer, >... ;-) ... Metta, Sarah p.s thanks for repeating the drops of water through the thin sheets of paper helpful analogy for the ‘not so classifiable object’. Just a very small point, after a sense door process, she specified it was ‘reality by way of not so classifiable object’, not a concept. In other cases, it is a ‘concept by way of not so classifiable object’. ========================= 36658 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 0:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Short version: Akusala-vipaka cittas result from akusala cittas. The > akusala-vipaka is morally neutral, i.e. it is not rooted in > lobha/dosa/moha, but it IS a result of morally corrupt cittas. Let's > not take the discussion as far as the javana cittas because I think > we can agree that: 1. the sensation of pain arises prior to the > javanas, and 2. pain frequently gives rise to dosa but it is not > necessary for it to in all cases. > > Is it wrong to say "akusalavipaka cittas result from akusala cittas"? > ===== A real minor point is that I would say that akusala vipaka cittas result from past akusala javana cittas; only javana cittas can create kamma. ===== > Does this differ from "the pain from the tree falling on your leg is > a result of your bad kamma" in an essential way? > [Certainly, kamma does not cause a tree to fall, but that is not a > part of my sentence.] ===== The tree fell because conditions supported this falling (i.e. the roots gave way, there was a wind, etc. but nothing to do with kamma). Now to get technical... There was a tactile object (earth rupa) which arose together with body sensitivity (rupa) when "the tree" (tree is a concept) hit "the leg" (leg is a concept). To paraphrase the Honeyball Sutta (MN18), "Dependent on [body sensitivity] and [tactile object], [body] consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling." There are two types of body consciousness; one is called "akusala vipaka" and the other is "kusala vipaka". Which body consciousness will arise? It depends on the intrinsic nature of the tactile object. If this rupa is inherently undesireable (anittha), then this is a condition for an akusala vipaka body consciousness to arise (note that this citta always arises with painful bodily feeling). In other words, the painful bodily feeling arose because an intrinsically undesireable rupa (the tactile object) arose together with body sensitivity (another rupa). This feeling arose as part of a vipaka citta which carries the label "akusala". When the body consciousness citta accompanied by painful bodily feeling falls away, this is a condition for a new citta arise; a receiving citta accompanied by neutral mental feeling. The receiving citta accompanied by neutral mental feeling is followed by an investigating citta with neutral mental feeling. The falling away of the investigating citta is a condition for the arising of a determining citta with neutral mental feeling. The falling away of the determining citta with neutral mental feeling is a condition for the arising of a javana citta. But which javana citta will arise? This depends on our accumulations. For uninstructed worldlings (that's us), our accumulations are such that a dosa-mula javana citta will almost certainly arise. All dosa-mula cittas arise with unpleasant mental feeling. The sense-door citta process comes to an end and it is then followed by hundreds of thousands of mind-door citta processes that "name", "think about" and "mentally proliferate" (see Honeyball Sutta). In the case of the tree and the leg, most of the javana cittas part of these mind-door processes will be dosa-mula with unpleasant mental feeling. In other words, the painful bodily feeling is over in the duration of a single citta and it is followed by a few cittas accompanied by neutral mental feeling and then by an unbelieveably huge number of cittas accompanied by unpleasant mental feeling. Clearly, pain is almost all in the mind! Now what would happen if a tree were to fall on the leg of an Anagami or an Arahant? There would still be painful bodily feeling during the body consciousness citta. The following receiving, investigating and determining cittas will be with neutral mental feeling (same as for us). However, Anagamis and Arahants no longer has the accumulations to support the arising of dosa so there will be no dosa-mula cittas with unpleasant mental feeling. ===== > > Slightly longer version: I see in your discussion that you identify > the sensation of pain as a rupa. If true, then pain would belong to > the nevavipaakanavipaakadhammadhammaa -- the dhammaa that are neither > resultant nor cause resultants, viz. Nibbana and corporeality > (sabbañca ruupaa.m) [vipaka triplet in Dhs. (Matika §3, Dhs §993 (in > CSCD or the U Kyaw Khine translation, or §989 in the Rhys Davids > translation)]. That would mean that kamma surely doesn't cause a tree > to fall and that pain arising from a tree falling does not result > from bad kamma. But is that what you are saying? ===== I think that I have answered your question in my technical analysis above. Please let me know if I have not. ===== > > I have always have thought of pain as vedana, a nama. "Pain" is the > name we give to the sensation arising from certain anittha rupas. As > such, it would not fall under the nevavipaakanavipaakadhammadhammaa, > but, rather, the vipaka -- "Dhamma which are the results of wholesome > or unwholesome dhamma... (Dhs §991 [cscd])." Here, the akusala dhamma > does not cause the tree to fall, but it does serve as cause for the > pain. Which particular akusala kamma(s)? Impossible to tell, but we > can be sure that it was akusala kamma. For me, this is strictly > theory because I have experienced a lot of pain for which I can see > no connection to akusala kamma, and my understanding of the nature of > pain is not so deep that I can say with conviction anything along the > lines of "all pain is caused by ripening of akusala kamma." > > Easier to say would be the following: Kamma keeps this "being" going > in this sphere of existence; beings that keep going in this sphere of > existence may experience pain; pain is therefore a natural result > (albeit apparently indirect) of kamma; beings in this realm all have > bad past kamma; a life rife with good kamma may result in rebirth in > a realm where there is no pain; therefore, pain is not only a result > of kamma, it is a result of *bad* kamma in particular. However, this > seems indirect, convoluted, speculative, contrived, etc. To say I'm > not committed to this formulation is an understatement. Is there a > good way to talk about pain as akusalavipaka without being so > indirect, convoluted, speculative, contrived? > ===== Is my technical analysis above any less indirect, convoluted, speculative or contrived? :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 36659 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 0:48am Subject: Theory and Practice - Eric Re: Anapanasati/ Sukin Hi Eric, You said: > Sukin, please, I am saying it is both. Study and > practice. I am not saying that contemplation is > not needed or secondary for that matter. But when > push comes to shove, you are going to have to leave > all of this theorizing behind. Either you will > intend to do it via meditation or death will force you! Sukin: I know this, but I got carried away trying to prove my point. But still, I think we may have a different understanding as to what `study' as in pariyatti is, and what it means to `practice', which in dhamma is patipatti. I will go a bit into this later on in this post. ----------------------------------------------------- > S: However now when I read what they have said, I have no > reason to think that they were so, in fact, I consider some of them > quite misguided even. So yes, in those cases where the claim comes > from an unreliable source, I would surely hesitate. > > E: Ok let me ask you in this way. Would you listen to or be > interested in the Buddha before his enlightenment? If you > had the chance to talk with him while he was a mere > Bodhisatta, would you? Sukin: I prefer to avoid considering the dhamma in this way. It is already hard enough not to think it in terms of `people and situations', and `self' being always in the center. But dhamma is about the present arisen reality and it is so rare that I remember this. There is no control over what one will hear and whether right or wrong understanding will follow. Anyway, with regard to the above, firstly I think the Bodhisatta was the most admirable of persons with the exception of when he became the Buddha. Even without Right View, he was greater than the greatest of his disciples. Since this is only an imaginary situation, let's imagine further that someone with such qualities was present `while' there already was the Sasana. Also imagine that Sukin had a degree of Rt. View and he was studying under a certain teacher who may or may not be enlightened, but who taught the Dhamma as existing in the Tipitaka now. Also imagine that Sukin is perceptive enough to identify and appreciate the great qualities of the Bodhisatta. Between the Bodhisatta and this teacher, who would Sukin study under? The Dhamma teacher. The Bodhisatta may be a great inspiration, but what could I learn from him about getting out of samsara? ----------------------------------------------------- > S> People may be able to enter Samadhi in an instant and experience > fascinating states of mind. Some might talk with seemingly great > authority about levels of consciousness and create elaborate > theories about human experience and nature of reality. For me the > test as to whether that person is really wise is in how much > importance he gives to presently arising realities. > > E: This is for each to know and no descriptive signifier > will allow another to realize the present arising realities no > matter how much the benevolent intent. Sukin: One person cannot make another enlightened. But if the conditions are there, he will speak with wisdom and if his audience has the right accumulations, wisdom can arise in him too. But if someone has never heard the Dhamma (except for Buddhas), then this kind of wisdom can never arise. It *must* start with a conceptual description; this happened even in the case of Sariputta. And if a person does understand dhamma, lack of words to describe the experience is no excuse. ------------------------------------------- > S> The Four Noble Truths, if a teaching is consistent with this, then > it would qualify as Right View, otherwise not. Which is another way > of saying that only the Buddha and his followers were/can be > enlightened. > > E: I dont agree. The 4NT's were discovered by the Buddha > not invented by him. Sukin: We are talking about the way things are, which is independent of anyone's observation and opinion. So yes the Buddha did not invent the 4NT. But I hesitate to say that he discovered it, since this makes it too easy and does give an impression that the 4NT is out there to be discovered. But only very great `insight' can glimpse the 4NT via developed understanding of the conditioned nature of realities, particularly a firm understanding of anatta. Do you know anyone else who teaches anatta? ------------------------------------------------------- > S> It seems odd that people, including monks, have meditated (in some > cases on the breath) for 20, 30 or 40 years and all they can talk > about at the end of it, is `calm', `happiness', `peace' and so on. > And when they advice anyone on `understanding' dhamma, they point to > the `formal practice'. > > E: Maybe they are just pointing you in a direction > that they know you will eventually realize the present > arisen dhammas. What was the Buddha doing on the eve > of his Enlightenment? He was doing a formal practice > of meditation which he taught as Anapanasati. Sukin: `Formal', according to whom? Did someone teach him this? What he became enlightened to was what *all* practices did not lead him to. When other teachers `point' you to a direction, why is it away from the moment? And "who" does "what"?! If there is not understanding of what is going on, is this the `cause' leading to the correct `result'? Is this encouraging of blind faith and the following of rites and rituals? ----------------------------------------------------- >E: Sukin, please, I am saying it is both. Study and > practice. I am not saying that contemplation is > not needed or secondary for that matter. But when > push comes to shove, you are going to have to leave > all of this theorizing behind. Either you will > intend to do it via meditation or death will force you! Sukin; Yes theorizing is an annoying habit, but I don't believe in it. But there is no control over what will arise as long as conditions for wrong view and other akusala are still present. The concept of `meditation' as I see it can in fact be a product of such theorizing. When there is any panna arising in the moment, there is no idea about what to "do", because panna, unlike lobha, detaches. Pariyatti as often expressed here, is panna, though of the very basic level. It is the correct understanding in terms of conceptual description, of what is happening NOW. To know that what one understands about the moment is `conceptual' and that it is conditioned is already panna at work. To want something more is the work of `lobha' or else a misunderstanding of the Teachings. Also not knowing that pariyatti is *not* about words but a level of understanding, one may reason that one must leave all this behind and directly `look', meditate. But this is wrong understanding of the moment, conceptually, and instead believing in a concept of `doing something', where a `self' is projected into a future state. One starts with self view and ends up feeding it further with any consequent illusion of result. No one can decide to leave any `theory' behind. Practice as in patipatti, just knows a reality, and if that be `thinking', then naturally there is detachment. But the same applies to any reality, even jhana cittas must be seen with satipatthana. I think the idea that one can and must decide to do away with theory, is a misunderstanding not only of the significance of the relationship between pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha, but also from *not* knowing the moment and having instead only a wrong view of it. Regarding urgency at the time of death, I don't know what I will do, maybe out of `fear' I might think about meditation. :-( But this would be due to self-attachment and lack of confidence. -------------------------------------------------- > > S> I am not saying that direct experience should not be taken into > consideration, if the experience is indeed consistent with the > Teachings, then there is no need to refer to it in retrospect in > order to condition Saddha. > > E: Yes but the raft is not made of books! Why dont > you see this? And where the raft meets the water, > that has nothing to do with books! Now the books > may have helped to build the raft but surely they > must be left behind on the other shore. Sukin: When there is pariyatti, maybe this can be compared to the raft and when patipatti, one is touching the other shore. But each time there is any correct understanding of pariyatti as pariyatti and patipatti as patipatti, then there is no attachment to the raft, but no illusion about being on the other shore either. But to think that one can just decide to let go of the raft and `do' something, and this is `being' on the other shore, may be a case of not even know raft for raft and still being on this shore but thinking otherwise. ------------------------------------------------------ > S> Meditators like to refer to the practice when advising others, but > if indeed there was genuine satipatthana, one will know at the same > time that it has arisen due to causes and conditions unrelated to > any intention to have it. This is I believe why some members of DSG > don't like to talk about their subjective experiences ;-). What is > there after all to talk about when the moments of sati are so rare > and of little strength and these are not tied to any particular > conventional activity!? > > E: Tis a shame in my eyes. All this book knowledge and > a fatalistic attitude of doing nothing is better than > doing something. The Buddhas teaching was a doctrine > of action not inaction! I guess it has followed the way > of the west. Only things described in books matter and > are considered important. Sukin: There is always some dhamma performing its function. In spite of this, some will still behave in a way that a `self' can exercise influence in terms of gaining better understanding. But isn't this a contradiction? If there is no understanding about non-self with regard to the dhammas arising now, how can this lead to any such understanding at the end of the road? But I agree with you that what is described in the books is not important as compared to the experience of the realities which any Right book will refer to. ;-) ------------------------------------------------- > S> You seem to object to `theory', but do you really believe we can > get away from any theory? I think we start with some kind of > conclusion, dwell on them and reinforce them all the time. And if we > have had any experiences and do not check if this is consistent with > the Buddha's teachings, then I believe that it becomes increasingly > hard to get on the right track. > > Again, I am not objecting to theory! But it just > has lost its taste in my mouth. I want the fruit > and no longer pale anemic descriptions of it! Sukin: I think you need to reexamine your understanding of what pariyatti means. Metta, Sukin. Ps: Just FYI, I almost never enjoy reading, have aversion for technical language, can't seem to retain anything read, and do not even bother to try to remember. And 98% of my books have never been read. Very odd accumulations, I know. :-( 36660 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 0:54am Subject: Re: Natural Decisive Support Condition (pakatupanissaya) Hi Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > Thinking about vipaka in terms of natural decisive support condition > seems to be very helpful. > > My synopsis of what you wrote: It is natural decisive support > condition that "pushes" the sensation of pain into the consciousness. > When a tree falls on a leg, pain (akusalavipaka) only becomes a > reality when the attention is adverted to the sensations. Without > having first developed the habit of adverting the attention to pain, > decisive support condition would not be there, consciousness would > not be adverted to the unpleasant sensations, and pain would not > arise. When natural decisive support for pain is present, attention > is adverted, and pain is felt. "Natural decisive support for pain" is > developed via akusala kamma (and concept and prior practice with > experience of pain). ===== Pretty good description. My last post goes through this in a bit more detail. Metta, Rob M :-) 36661 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Dighanakha. --- dighanakha wrote: > Or are you asking if it's true that the Buddha had special > insight into the character of women, as claimed above? My belief > is that he did. And I would expect anything that he said about > women based upon this knowledge to be the truth. But in the > Kunala Jataka there is a flood of wild generalizations about > women that can easily be checked and shown to be false by > observation of the lives and behaviour of actual women. .... S: I think the point that is stressed again and again in the texts is that our observations ‘of the lives and behaviour’ of ‘actaul women’ or men for that matter is incredibly superficial and with just a little understanding we get to see how very little is known of even our own ‘lives and behaviour’, let alone latent tendencies and potential, from moment to moment. Again, I think the qu from ‘The Questions of King Milinda’, 42 ‘Women’s Whiles’, addresses this point very clearly as does the story about Vedehika and her maid, Kali in MN 21. Our behaviour may seem reasonably fine if we’re not sufficiently provoked as Vedika was or for any number of other reasons but whilst I read these texts, including the Jataka, I personally find it helpful to reflect on the danger of ‘my’ defilements. Really, much of the time I don’t even pass small ‘tests’ in daily life very well, so just how would we or I pass really big ‘tests’? .... > Therefore, if it is true that the Buddha spoke only the truth, > and true that he had special insight into women, then the Kunala > Jataka cannot be his teaching. .... S: Like Matt stressed so well, Matt: >Whether women corrupted the sasana or not does not change what reality is arising and inpinging on the sense door right now. Whether the Buddha held those views or not, whether the Jataka Tales are true or fiction, whether the Teaching will last 500 or 5,000 years does not change what reality is arising and impinging on the sense door right now. >In the citta moment that arises right now there is no Jataka Tales, no women, nomen, no Bhikhunis, no sexist views and no self; male or female.< **** S: In other words, the practice still comes back to the present moment and the understanding of present dhammas. It doesn’t mean these are not valid or worthwhile questions, but when we are concerned about any issues which are likely to just lead to more doubts and speculation (talking animals is another favourite or the origins of the Abhidhamma or even details that are beyond our ability to understand), I believe the pariyatti and patipatti (if there is any development of satipatthana) is the knowing of the present thinking and doubt at such times or the frustration, conceit, seeing or visible object or other realities appearing. ..... > On the other hand, if we are going to base our reasoning on the > dsg fundamentalist assumption that the Kunala Jataka WAS spoken > by the Buddha (because its Mahavihara translator said so), then > we shall have to conclude either that the Buddha did not always > speak the truth, or that he did not have even the most > rudimentary everyday understanding of women, let alone special > insight into them. .... S: Or that our own insight is too limited to comprehend and therefore we may need to leave it aside for the time being. .... > But both of these possibilities are contradicted in the Nikayas. > Women's nature would have been known to the Buddha through the > sixth of the ten powers of a Tathagata. And being an arahant, he > would have spoken only what is factual. .... S: Yes. .... > And so my verdict is that the Buddha is not guilty of teaching > the Kunala Jataka. .... S: I understand your concerns, but I reserve judgment or rather, have no reason to reject it as I'm not convinced by your arguments to date. The summary I gave was from the Dict of PP Names. I understand you find it misleading, but I thought it was quite reasonable. .... S: Something which is very puzzling to me, however, is the following: .... > Something else I would draw your attention to (though it is less > probative than the above) is that the Kunala depicts the > Bodhisatta as lying. He lies three times when he is seducing the > white-robed nun Saccatapavi. But in other commentaries (I think > in the Buddhavamsa or the Cariyapitaka Comm) it is stated that a > Bodhisatta never violates the fourth precept. He might break the > others, but never the fourth. .... S: Yes. I read the text for this and also had a quick look at the Pali for the relevant lines and you seem to be right. I’ve also read/heard the same as you about the *third* precept as the exception and I have no explanation here(!!). Something for me to put aside until I hear any explanation for it. I can’t understand why it hasn’t been picked up and discussed by other commentaries. (For others without access to the Jatakas,but following this thread, I’ll put the Dict of PPN summary of the story at the end of this message). I’ll be glad if any Pali experts take a look too. Metta, Sarah ====== ***** Saccatapáví A white robed nun (setasamaní) who lived in a hut in a cemetery near Benares and abstained from four out of every five meals She was held in high esteem. On a certain festival day, some goldsmiths were seated in a tent making merry. One of them, becoming sick through drink, vomited, saying: “Praise be to Saccatapáví." One of the others called him a fool, saying that all women were alike, and accepted a wager of one thousand that he would seduce Saccatapáví. The next day he disguised himself as an ascetic and stood near her hut, worshipping the sun. Saccatapáví saw him and worshipped him, but he neither looked at her nor spoke. On the fourth day he greeted her, and on the sixth day, as she stood near him, they talked of the penances they practiced, and the ascetic professed that his were far more severe than hers. But he confessed that he had found no spiritual calm; neither had she and they agreed that it would be better to return to and enjoy the lay life. He brought her to the city and having lain with her and made her drunk, he handed her over to his friends. This story was related by Kunála (q.v.), who said that he was the goldsmith of the story. J.iv.424, 427f. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ***** 36662 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > Over the past few weeks, I have developed a habit of smiling at toll > > booth operators as I pass them. I find this to be a truly effective > > way of putting metta into my daily life. > > The key words here are "developed a habit." I suspect that rather than > deciding to smile > at toll operators, you became aware one day that it was happening, and that > conditioned > these mindful moments of smiling. I would say that if someone read your post > who had never practiced > awareness of brahma-viharas and was impressed by your post and decided to go > out and smile > at strangers/neutral people in daily life, it wouldn't be the same. ===== Not sure how it would be different. Imagine that I had written a texbook on the brahmaviharas. Would that make my smile any different from a person who had never heard the term before? ===== > > I think of the thing i posted recently from "Deeds of merit" in which K > Sujin says that the rupa of the tone of voice > is a reflection of the citta lying beneath, or words to that effect. I > wonder if the same can be said for > smiles. The rupa involved in the smile conditioned by citta beneath. Maybe > the connection is not so direct. > But certainly a smile arising from wholesome citta is different than a smile > that is not. ===== The connection is extremely direct. K. Sujin was talking about verbal intimation, the creation of sound that communicates our intentions. Verbal intimation is rupa, it does not know anything. It is a special modification of the earth element that causes the vocal apparatus to create sounds to reveal intentions. There is also bodily imtimation, the movement of the body that communicates our intentions (smiles, gestures, etc.). Bodily intimation is also rupa, it does not know anything. It is a special modification of the wind element that causes the body to move in ways to reveal intentions. ===== > > Of course one smile is the result of both wholesome and unwholesome cittas > that are rising and falling in > passing moments. > For example, at my job I meet lots of new students in a week. They come > and go, as I work for a kind of large > chain school where students reserve 40 minute lessons based on their busy > schedules. I have many students who > are nervous, fatigued or disinterested-looking from the beginning. (Many > businessmen are required by their companies to take English lessons > whether they want to or not.) There is a lot of ice to break at times. I > have become aware of the way a smile can do so much > to break the ice, and there are times I take pride in my ability to coax > smiles from the dourest of students. It happened > the other day, actually. When I met the fellow he looked like a man with a > big chip on his shoulder, and within minutes he > was smiling. Now, there are both wholesome and unwholesome factors at work > here. There is karuna, a concern for his obvious unhappiness at the > beginning, and metta wishing him wellbeing. They do arise. But there is also > a sense of self-pride at being such a skillful smile inducer. The > unwholesome aspect > doesn't take away from the wholesome aspect - I used to think it did. Now I > understand (in theory at least) that there is kusala and akusala rising and > falling all the time, and the idea of having a stretch of undiluted kusala > is wrong understanding. ===== There is a difference in my interaction with the toll booth operator and your interaction with your students. By its nature, my interaction with the toll booth operator is quite close to momentary. This makes it much, much simpler than your interaction with your students. ===== > > In your case, because you have done a lot of work on eradicating > defilements that are hindrances to metta, I suspect that metta arises more > often in its pure form than it does for me but I'm sure you'll agree that > there are akusala cittas at work at times as well. Well, no kidding. ===== Can't comment on our comparitive accumulations, but I agree that both kusala and akusala arise and often in close proximity. ===== > > >Whether they smile back or not is a function > > of their own accumulations and their own kamma and should not impact > > my mental state. Using this technique, I foster equanimity. > > They *always* smile back at me! Keep working on it. (wink) > > Seriously, this equanimity is so important. As I've posted > often enough before, upekkha forms the core of my > brahma-viharas contemplations. It is the starting point, tied in > with right understanding at the intellectual level of the four noble truths > and the three characteristics. > BTW, I found a nice line from K Sujin today in the phrases that Sarah > compiled (available at zolag) "Panna which performs the function of > detachment > is the highest meaning of upekkha." I guess what you are talking about > above > implies detachment from a desire for results from your smiles. ===== Absolutely! And because the interaction is momentary, it is easier to be detached. ===== > > > > When the toll booth operator smiles back at me, there is sympathetic > > joy in their minds which momentarily pushes aside any thoughts of > > judgment (of drivers) or boredom. > > I would have to disagree with this. We can't know the other's cittas. For > all > you know, there may be conceit and even sexual desire in the other brought > on by your > smile! Beware!!! That smile of yours could lead to the downfall of the toll > booth operator's > happy family life! ===== You are correct that one cannot catagorically know another's citta. However, if you have seen my picture in the DSG album you will agree that the chances of somebody falling into lust at first sight when they see me is quite remote :-) ===== > Seriously, of course it's true that the possibility that there will be > mudita for the > other increases, > but I don't think it can be assumed. ===== My assumption is based on: - a toll booth operator smile arises in response to my smile - this smile is bodily intimation, indicating the presence of cittas with pleasant mental feeling - Pleasant mental feeling arising with akusala cittas is characterized as inducing excitement whereas pleasant mental feeling arising with kusala cittas is characterized as inducing calm; the type of smiles I get back are of the "calm" type, not of the "excited" type - the characterisitic of mudita is "gladdening" and that seems to fit my observation - the function of mudita is being unenvious at another's success; the toll booth operator is "sharing" my smile - the manifestation of mudita is elimination of boredom; that certainly seems to fit - the proximate cause of mudita is seeing the success of others; my smile certainly prompted the toll booth operator's reaction - mudita can be considered as succeeding when it makes boredom subside and failing when it produces merriment (excitement) In summary, I feel the odds are extremely good that mudita is arising in the mind of the toll booth operator (but of course, I cannot be 100% sure). Metta, Rob M :-) 36663 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? HI Dighanakha, (Phil at the end) --- dighanakha wrote: > Hello Sarah, > > Continuing again, with apologies for the delay. ... S: I assure you, no need to apologise, I need the breaks;-) ... > > At the beginning of your post your expressed bemusement at the > term 'fundamentalist'. As I keep referring to the dsg hardcore by > this term I think I should define what I mean by it. .... S: Bemusement was the right word. I’m not over-fond of your ‘dsg hardcore’ label either a some of our most active and long-term members to date like Howard, for a good example, are very much at the heart of DSG and would not like to be lumped together with me on this thread as you’ve seen from the very varied responses. No problem. .... >I would > not like you to think that I'm calling you a bunch of nitwits or > Al Qaida terrorists or something. ... S: Grateful for this at least;-) ..... >For future reference, this is > what I have in mind: > > "One who affirms a religious textual authority as holistic and > absolute, admitting of neither criticism nor reduction, and to be > interpreted only literally." .... S: Sorry, but no, the hat doesn’t fit ;-) Usually those of us who read abhidhamma everywhere are being asked to read the suttas *more* literally, not less, for a start. Even for the Jataka under discussion, I think I tend to look at the deeper and less literal meaning and to reflect on the latent tendencies which have been accumulated, ready to pounce..... .... > The moral lesson drawn from Jatakas about evil men usually > consists of a recommendation to avoid some particular vice or > folly. The moral lesson drawn from Jatakas about evil women very > often consists of a recommendation to avoid (distrust, disbelieve > shun etc.) women in general. .... S: For me the moral lesson -- whether for men or women -- is to understand the extent of the defilements under various circumstances and to see the urgency of developing the various paramis and especially the importance of really being ‘true’ to what is conditioned at this moment. As I wrote below: .... > S> but I take these as good reminders of how > S> dangerous and powerful anusaya (latent tendencies) are in both > S> men and women and how precious is the opportunity to develop > S> wisdom with detachment now. Otherwise we just continue endlessly > S> in Samsara in our foolish ways, even if some of these tendencies > S> are not so very obvious in this life. > > Hmmm. Well I guess that's one way one might take it. I was paying > more attention to what the cuckoo was advising us to do. Here's a > summary of his advice (from the verses only). > > FOR MEN: > Beware of women. > Never trust your wife to go to the house of a (male) friend. > Don't credit anything they say. > Don't cultivate the acquaintance of women who are intelligent, > nor those who are attractive, popular, married, or parasitical. > Don't trust a woman because you think she likes you, nor because > she is given to crying in your presence. > Don't trust a woman even if you have had ten children with her. > Once you understand what women are really like, flee from all of > them. > Shun women everywhere. > > FOR WOMEN > Drop dead! (nassatha) > Go to hell! (vinassatha) .... S: Well, again my interpetation above might not be so literal.....;-) I’ll sign off by quoting an extract from a post of Phil’s. (Phil, I understand ‘investigation’ to refer to understanding of realites. As you suggest, a moment of mindfulness with understanding is the greatest respect we can pay to the Buddha - no matter where we are or what we are doing. No need to wait until we’re in a temple! Btw, we also like Nara and used to have a keen member on DSG who lived and taught English in a school in Nara as I recall). Metta, Sarah >More from "Deeds of Merit" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket available at http://www.zolag.co.uk/meri2.html K.S. : So long as there are defilements there will be conceit. Conceit is one type of defilement. Some people have a particular defilement to a great extent, but of other kinds of defilements they have only a slight degree. Moreover, there are coarse, medium and subtle defilements, and if one does not investigate and consider ones cittas in detail, one will not know at all the characteristic of each kind of defilement which has been accumulated from one citta to the next citta. The Buddha attained enlightenment and since he had reached the end of the cycle of birth and death, he passed away completely. However, he taught the Dhamma and the Dhamma is his successor. People who pay homage to the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, and who give expression to their respect by the investigation and the practice of the Dhamma, will eradicate defilements stage by stage, until they are all eradicated.< ====== 36664 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Perfect Gift HI RobM, Greatly appreciated all your answers (well, with a couple of Ken H’s amendments) to the 21 questions. Really excellent. I also enjoy your posts and encouragement of dana and all kinds of kusala. Like Phil, I do, however, have some reservations about some of the generalizations, however and I think it’s very important to understand more and more about the varied nature of the cittas (and other dhammas) whilst performing good deeds, so as not live under any illusions. I'm thinking of sacca (truth) parami to really know these cittas. For example, you’ve posted this one on donating blood a few times and I’m going to be a bit of a wet blanket here: --- robmoult wrote: > > Hi All, > > Blood is an anonymous gift. There is no way that the recipient could > know who the donor was. Donating blood is a pure act of giving, > without any other possible motives. .... S: Isn’t this quite a generalization? The generosity involved could be quite small in some instances. For example, as a school child, I started donating blood. It was considered rather a grown-up thing to do and not everyone got permission from their parents, so a few bragging rights went with it for some. I believe we also got to skip a class from memory..... In my case, I had very low blood pressure and it’s always been difficult for anyone to extract blood. Invariably as a small teenager, I’d faint somewhere like on the train platform on my way home afterwards....so, it was actually with some relief that a few years later, after a bout of hepatitis, I was told not to donate blood ever again. In Jon’s case, he has a rare blood type and tends to be called up at odd times to go to the centre to make an extra donation. Now, I’ve never discussed how ‘pure’ his act of giving is, but for most people it would be natural to show more willingness when called out of a boring meeting rather than called up in the middle of lunch. Either way, in his case, it is considered the ‘duty’ of a civil servant and I’m sure the ‘culture’ again affects the act. Mixed motives for most of us for sure. ..... > Blood is free from economics. When a gift is opened, the recipient > cannot help but think of how much was paid. Unlike other types of > gifts, neither the donor nor the recipient attaches an economic > value to a gift of blood. ..... S: Again, I could confess to selling blood in Athens as a teenager in order to earn a meal before hiking home penniless.....;-) I’m not sure about now, but definitely not so long ago in China, I believe everyone was well aware of the price.... .... > Blood is a very personal gift. What could be more personal than > blood? Blood cannot be manufactured, except by a human body. During > the act of donating, blood is pumped into the sac by the heart of > the donor. .... S: :-/ .... > The recipient always appreciates a gift of blood. Other types of > gifts are sometimes left unused or unappreciated. When a person > receives blood it is because they really need it; perhaps it is even > a case of life or death. > > You do not need to be wealthy to donate blood, just healthy. I think > that we all agree that health is more important than wealth. Let us > celebrate our good health and share it with others who are less > fortunate (less healthy) than ourselves by donating blood. .... S: It’s good to encourage donations. I certainly do the same. I just can’t get quite as excited by the ‘pure’ act as you, Rob. So maybe no 'perfect gift' to my mind -- just 'perfect' cittas perhaps? But then, we'd have to refer to the Buddha's!! Smiles - now I don’t drive or go through toll-booths but I do tend to give special attention to street-sweepers and rubbish-collectors on my walks......but again, there’s attachment as well as metta and sometimes they probably think it’s that crazy ‘gwai-por’ (ghost lady) smiling and saying funny words which makes me smile more.... Metta, Sarah p.s the description of how the Kathavatthu came to be written can be read in detail in the introduction to Commentary with the exact events foreseen by the Buddha. I can type it out if anyone wishes. ====== 36665 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Perfect Gift Hi Sarah (and Htoo / Phil), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Like Phil, I do, however, have some reservations about some of the > generalizations, however and I think it's very important to understand > more and more about the varied nature of the cittas (and other dhammas) > whilst performing good deeds, so as not live under any illusions. I'm > thinking of sacca (truth) parami to really know these cittas. > > For example, you've posted this one on donating blood a few times and I'm > going to be a bit of a wet blanket here: A sincere thanks for being a wet blanket. I have said it before :-) and it is a generalization :-) but "I have never learned anything from anybody who agreed with me!" I know that one of the main weaknesses of my writing style is that I tend to generalize. When you are being a wet blanket, you are providing me with a reality check. Frankly, I feel that here on DSG that I am among friends so I don't mind making mistakes and I really appreciate it when I get corrected. For the same reason, I really appreciate the detailed feedback (and corrections) on my book from Htoo and Phil. This book is very important to me. Htoo, Phil and Lee have provided me some excellent feedback. Metta, Rob M :-) 36666 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:36am Subject: Re: Rob M: "...carries the label 'akusala'" Dear Rob M, Your descriptions are wonderful. Thank-you for your patience and for taking the time to go through this -- I'm not quick to catch on. Maybe the answer to my question is hiding in your explanations, but I'm having some catching it. Here's the question in slightly different words: How can we say that bad kamma results in painful bodily sensation? Kamma doesn't cause the tree to fall, but kamma in some sense causes the pain (which, by all accounts, is why the vipaka is called vipaka and akusalavipaka). How so? It is not enough to say: "In other words, the painful bodily feeling arose because an intrinsically undesireable rupa (the tactile object) arose together with body sensitivity (another rupa). This feeling arose as part of a vipaka citta which carries the label 'akusala'," because there is no explanation of any connection to past akusala dhamma as a cause of the pain. I can see that Your analysis that DNSC causes the attention to advert to the sensation is hitting on a great explanation, provided that (1) it is correct (and it seems to be); and (2) DNSC for pain is developed through akusala dhamma. I will need to keep considering these points for some time to really "get it", but in the meantime, I thank you mightily. Dan 36667 From: Dan D. Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: CSC 4-[Sarah: "citta is..."] Dear Sarah, Is not the idea of "conceptual right view" a trap, much like the notion of "conventional right effort"? Isn't it just taking a factor of the eightfold path and reconstituting it as concept rather than cetasika? Is there any canonical or commentarial support for doing that? Metta, Dan 36668 From: Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Hi, Rob - In a message dated 9/20/04 5:29:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > My assumption is based on: > - a toll booth operator smile arises in response to my smile > - this smile is bodily intimation, indicating the presence of cittas > with pleasant mental feeling > - Pleasant mental feeling arising with akusala cittas is > characterized as inducing excitement whereas pleasant mental feeling > arising with kusala cittas is characterized as inducing calm; the > type of smiles I get back are of the "calm" type, not of > the "excited" type > - the characterisitic of mudita is "gladdening" and that seems to > fit my observation > - the function of mudita is being unenvious at another's success; > the toll booth operator is "sharing" my smile > - the manifestation of mudita is elimination of boredom; that > certainly seems to fit > - the proximate cause of mudita is seeing the success of others; my > smile certainly prompted the toll booth operator's reaction > - mudita can be considered as succeeding when it makes boredom > subside and failing when it produces merriment (excitement) > > In summary, I feel the odds are extremely good that mudita is > arising in the mind of the toll booth operator (but of course, I > cannot be 100% sure). > > =========================== I think your comments here are right on. Your inferring mudita is most reasonable. I think there may be some more as well. I think there may also be gratefulness for kindness, joy at being given recognition, and happiness at the chance for sharing a pleasant moment with another human being (but this is close to mudita). BTW, I don't consider verbal and bodily intimation to be simple, conceptually unconstructed phenomena (paramattha dhammas), but behavioral complexes. So I wouldn't call them rupas, but I would refer to them as "rupic". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36669 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:04am Subject: Kamma Hi Nina / Rob K and all, For some time now, my understanding of kamma has been different from K. Sujin (as reported by Sarah). K. Sujin says that only when all of the conditions recorded in the Atthasalini (Vol I, Book I, Part III, Chapter V "Discourse on Courses of Immoral Action" and Chapter VI "Discourse on Courses of Moral Action") are present will kamma be created. K. Sujin says that if all of these conditions are not met, then kamma is not created (but accumulations are reinforced in all cases). My understanding was that all volitional actions created kamma but when the conditions recorded in the Atthasalini were present, the kamma created was strong enough to condition the rebirth linking citta. I checked some Suttas on kamma and they all seem to talk about rebirth but never about kamma ripening during a lifetime. There was stuff about accumulations affecting actions during one's lifetime, but nothing on kamma. I decided to investigate asynchronous kamma condition in the Abhidhamma. My first stop was Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, Table 8.3, "Conditioning and Conditioned States of the Twenty Four Conditions". This did not help much. Then I remembered that the charts in BB's CMA were prepared by U Silananda and that I had a set of lecture notes by U Silananda that included the charts from BB's CMA and often gave more detail. Sure enough, U Silananda's lecture notes went into more detail on asynchronous kamma (Nanakkhanika-kamma)condition: A. Cetana in past lobhamula citta conditions: - at time of rebirth: akusala vipaka upekkha santirana + 10 cetaskias / kammaja-rupa - during existence: 7 akusala vipaka cittas + cetasikas / undesirable kammaja-rupa B. Cetana in past kamavacara kusala cittas, with knowledge, of superior (ukkattha) type, conditions: - at time of rebirth: 8 kamavacara vipakka cittas + cetasikas / kammaja-rupa - during existence: 8 kamavacara vipaka cittas + cetasikas / 8 kusala vipaka cittas + cetasikas / desirable kammaja-rupa C. Cetana in past kamavacara kusala cittas, with knowledge, of inferior (omaka) type, conditions: - at time of rebirth: 4 kamavacara vipakka cittas without nana + cetasikas / kammaja-rupa - during existence: 8 kamavacara vipaka cittas + cetasikas / desirable kammaja-rupa D. Cetana in past kamavacara kusala cittas, without knowledge, of superior (ukkattha) type, conditions: - at time of rebirth: 4 kamavacara vipakka cittas without nana + cetasikas / kammaja-rupa - during existence: 8 kamavacara vipaka cittas + cetasikas / desirable kammaja-rupa E. Cetana in past kamavacara kusala cittas, without knowledge, of inferior (omaka) type, conditions: - at time of rebirth: kusala vipaka upekkha santirana + 10 cetaskias / kammaja-rupa - during existence: 8 kusala vipaka cittas + cetasikas / desirable kammaja-rupa [The table goes on to explain rupavacara, rupavacara for asana-satta state, arupavacara and first magga citta] Here are some observations on this table: 1. Dosa-mula cittas and moha-mula cittas do not create kamma! 2. It would appear as though a past lobha-mula citta conditions rebirth linking into a woeful state (bhavanga is akusala vipaka upekkha santirana) and that it is only during a woeful existence will the 7 akusala vipaka cittas (5 sense consciousness + receiving + investigating) arise as a result of the same lobha-mula citta which propelled one into that state! 3. It would appear as though a past kamavacara kusala citta conditions rebirth linking into a happy destination and that it is only during an existence in a happy destination that the 8 kusala vipaka cittas (5 sense consciousness + receiving + 2 investigating) arise as a result of the same kamavacara kusala citta which propelled one into that state! 4. Kamma is superior (ukkhattha) when preceding and subsequent actions are both kusala (i.e. planning dana -> doing dana -> rejoicing in dana). Kamma is inferior (omaka) when preceding or subsequent actions are akusala (i.e. doing dana for appearances -> doing dana -> regretting doing dana). My previous perspective is that the sense-consciousness citta, the receiving citta and the investigating citta in different citta processes were the vipaka of different past javana cittas. It now appears as though all these vipaka cittas throughout the entire existence are the result of the same javana citta which propelled one into this existence! This is a completely new understanding of kamma and it appears as though K. Sujin may have been correct! I have yet to more fully explore the implications of this, but I would appreciate feedback. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Dan, my exchage with you was a key condition in prompting this line of thought. Much appreciated! 36670 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:27am Subject: Re: Rob M: "...carries the label 'akusala'" Hi Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > How can we say that bad kamma results in painful > bodily sensation? ===== I didn't say that bad kamma results in painful bodily sensation :-). When an inherently unpleasant tactile object meets body sensitivity and body consciousness arises, this body consciousness arises with painful bodily feeling. In simple terms, the pain comes from the awareness of the tree hitting the leg, not some action in a past lifetime! :-) ===== > > Kamma doesn't cause the tree to fall, but kamma in some sense causes > the pain (which, by all accounts, is why the vipaka is called vipaka > and akusalavipaka). ===== The citta is called unwholesome (akusala) even though it has no ethical qualities (i.e. no roots). Just because it is called vipaka does not mean that the originating javana citta has anything to do with the current object. Dan, if it makes you feel any better, your questions have caused me to look into this subject more deeply and make some interesting observations (see my last post titled Kamma). ===== > How so? It is not enough to say: "In other words, > the painful bodily feeling arose because an intrinsically > undesireable rupa (the tactile object) arose together with body > sensitivity (another rupa). This feeling arose as part of a vipaka > citta which carries the label 'akusala'," because there is no > explanation of any connection to past akusala dhamma as a cause of > the pain. ===== Again, I ask why the past akusala javana citta has to have any bearing on the current object. As an analogy, the kamma from our last thought process (the maranasanna vithi) creates the kamma that drives every single one of our bhavanaga cittas for the next existence. Metta, Rob M :-) 36671 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:01am Subject: Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. Text Vis. 101: 101. III. i. A. (b) 'Unprofitable resultant', though is without root-cause only. It is of seven kinds as (50) eye-consciousness, (51)-(54) ear-, nose-, tongue-, and body-consciousness, (55) mind-element with the function of receiving, and (56) mind-consciousness-element with the function of investigating, etc., and having five positions. It should be understood as to characteristic, etc., in the same way as the profitable resultant without root-cause (34)-(41). Intro Vis. 101: The five sense-cognitions of seeing etc., receiving-consciousness (sampa.ticchana-citta) and investigating-consciousness (santiira.na-citta) can be kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta, depending on the kamma that produces them. In this section the Vis. deals with the types of citta that are akusala vipaakacittas. ========== Text Vis: 'Unprofitable resultant', though is without root-cause only. It is of seven kinds as (50) eye-consciousness, (51)-(54) ear-, nose-, tongue-, and body-consciousness, (55) mind-element with the function of receiving, and (56)mind-consciousness-element with the function of investigating, etc., and having five positions. =========== N: There are seven types of akusala vipaakacitta, whereas in the case of ahetuka kusala vipaakacittas, there are eight types. The reason is that there are two types of investigating-consciousness which are kusala vipaaka: one type accompanied by pleasant feeling (when the object is very pleasant) and one type by indifferent feeling. There is only one type of investigating-consciousness that is akusala vipaaka, and it is accompanied by indifferent feeling. There are five positions (.thaana) of satiira.na-citta which is akusala vipaakacitta, and this means that this type of citta can perform the functions of investigating (santiira.na), of retention (tadaaramma.na), of rebirth, of bhavanga and of dying. Text Vis. =============== It should be understood as to characteristic, etc., in the same way as the profitable resultant without root-cause. =========== N: Akusala vipaakacitta is never accompanied by roots, it is ahetuka, rootless. The Tiika states that he said that akusala vipaaka is rootless, because the nature of vipaaka is not reprehensible; it cannot have the roots of lobha, etc. that are the causes of unwise attention (ayoniso manasikaara), and also because it is akusala vipaaka it cannot be associated with the roots of alobha etc., the cause of what is profitable. N: Thus, akusala vipaakacitta is not called ahetuka akusala vipaakacitta; the word ahetuka, rootless, is superfluous because it is always without roots. It is without the akusala roots of lobha, dosa, moha, and without the beautiful roots (sobhana hetus) of alobha, adosa and amoha. It is not reprehensible, unprofitable, nor blameless, profitable. In the case of kusala vipaakacittas, the differentiation of sahetuka and ahetuka has to be made, since kusala kamma can produce eight sahetuka vipaakacittas that can be accompanied by the two roots of alobha and adosa, or by three roots, by alobha, adosa and paññaa, and also eight rootless, ahetuka, kusala vipaakacittas. ****** When seeing arises it may be kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta. It is conditioned by kusala kamma or by akusala kamma. It is not beneficial to try to find out whether seeing is kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta. It is only one moment and it falls away immediately. After it has fallen away javanacittas which are kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise. When there is wise attention to visible object kusala cittas arise, and when there is unwise attention, akusala cittas arise, depending on conditions. Kusala citta is of the jaati that is kusala and akusala citta is of the jaati that is akusala, whereas kusala vipaakacitta and akusala vipaakacitta are only of one jaati, the jaati of vipaaka. As we have seen in the section of kusala vipaakacitta, the Tiika explains that vipaaka is passive, it does not produce any result. Whereas kusala and akusala are active. We read: The investigating-consciousness, santiira.na-citta that is akusala vipaakacitta can perform the function of rebirth, bhavanga and cuti (dying). It can be the result of akusala kamma, motivated by one of eleven types of akusala cittas: eight akusala cittas rooted in attachment (lobha-muula-cittas), two akusala cittas rooted in aversion (dosa-muulacittas) and one akusala citta rooted in ignorance (moha-muula-citta) accompanied by doubt. The moha-muula-citta accompanied by restlessness (uddhacca) produces result only in the course of life. Thus, eleven types can motivate akusala kamma that produces an unhappy rebirth. In that case the rebirth-consciousness is akusala vipaakacitta which is the same type as the investigating-consciousness, santiira.na-citta. As we have seen, this type of citta can perform the functions of investigating (santiira.na), of retention (tadaaramma.na), of rebirth, of bhavanga and of dying. Only one type of akusala vipaakacitta, the santiira.na-citta that is akusala vipaakacitta, can perform the function of rebirth in unhappy planes, but it has many intensities. There are four classes of unhappy planes: the Hell planes, the plane of demons (asuras), the plane of Petas (ghosts) and the animal world. Nobody can escape the result of kamma. Even kamma of many lives ago may have an opportunity to produce an unhappy rebirth. ***** Nina. 36672 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:37am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 067 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Sakadagams have thinner kilesas or defilement than sotapams who have eradicated ditthi and vicikiccha. If they stay the same in this life they will be reborn twice after which there is nibbana. This two rebirths are their final rebirths. The last rebirth will be in one of 5 suddhavasa catuttha jhana rupa brahma bhumis called aviha, atappa, sudassa, sudassi, and akanittha depending on their indriya dhamma which is the most powerful. Saddha will leads to aviha, viriya to atappa, sati to sudassa, samadhi to sudassi, and panna to akanittha. As the last life is in rupa brahma bhumi, the life just before the last life may still be in kama bhumis including manussa bhumi or human realm. These beings are never reborn in 4 apaya bhumis as they will not do any akusala that would lead them rebirth in lower 4 realms. The explanation on uddhacca citta in Tiika tells that sotapams, sakadagams, and anagams may well still have uddhacca which is a moha citta and akusala citta. But they are not reborn in lower realms. This indicates that uddhacca cetasika does not cause rebirth even though it gives its results in the course of life that is pavatti effect. For sakadagams, there left 2 more lives to be reborn. This means that if they die as sakadagams. But some do not stay the same stagnant in this stage of sakadagam. They will continue their dhamma contemplation and they will continue their mahasatipatthanas through four methods namely kayaanupassana, vedanaanupassana, cittaanupassana and dhammaanupassana. At a time, when conditions are right, these sakadagams approach nibbana again. They see dhamma clearly. At a indefinite time, when bhavanga cittas stop and vithi cittas of anagami magga citta and phala cittas arise, the first citta is manodvaravajjana citta. It contemplates on arammana of nama and rupa dhamma that is paramattha dhamma which have marks of anicca, dukkha, and anatta. After that as soon as mano dvara avajjana citta dies out, parikamma or preparatory mahakusala citta arises and falls away. Next arises upacara mahakusala citta which is proximate consciousness to magga citta. After vanishing of upacara mahakusala citta, there arises anuloma mahakusala citta taking the object of mahasatipatthana that is rupa dhamma or nama dhamma which have marks of anicca, dukkha, and anatta. All these cittas are tihetuka kamavacara mahakusala cittas. They are not rupavacara jhana cittas or arupavacara jhana cittas. They are not absorbed but they are viewing paramattha dhamma as anicca or dukkha or anatta. Panatta does not arise and does not fall away. Panatta does not have anicca, dukkha, or anatta. All rupavacara cittas take the object panatta. They will never view on rupa or nama which have marks of anicca, dukkha, and anatta. Mano dvara avajjana citta is a kiriya citta. After that parikamma, upacara, anuloma cittas arise successively without interruption. All these preliminary cittas are kamavacara mahakusala tihetuka cittas. They are not rupavacara rupa jhana cittas or arupavacara arupa jhana cittas. As soon as anuloma mahakusala citta falls away, there arises another mahakusala citta called gotrabhu citta. This citta called gotrabhu citta is also a kamavacara mahakusala citta and it is still in the domain of non-arahats. But this citta is looking at or viewing on or holding or taking nibbana as its object, while it is leaving the old lineage. So it is called lineage-changing consciousness. After its passing away, there arises anagami magga citta. This citta has ekaggata cetasika which is also called samadhi. This samadhi here in anagami magga citta is samma-samadhi. It is one of Noble Eightfold Path. This is dead sure. Again this citta anagami magga citta's samadhi is called appana samadhi. That is it is an absorptive concentration. Yes. The mind at that time is totally absorbed into the object, here the object nibbana. So this can be called lokuttara jhana. Up till now in this vithi vara there is no rupa jhana or arupa jhana cittas. But anagami magga itself is an appana samadhi. This is why one of Dhammapada verse says that without jhana, panna cannot arise and without panna, jhana cannot arise. It is for lokuttara jhanas. It is not for loki jhanas like rupa jhana or arupa jhana. When dhammas are not well understood some people argue that without jhana, nibbana cannot be obtained and they try jhana first and then try to develop panna. This is wrong. For magga nanas to arise, rupa jhana or arupa jhana are not necessary even though if it is good the practitioner is proficient in these 8 jhanas. And these 8 jhanas may have some help in attaining higher nana like magga and phala nanas. But they are not necessary. That is their absence do not hinder arising of magga nana or phala nana. There are sukkavipassakas even in The Buddha time. Sukka means 'pure'. This means that they do not possess any rupavacara jhanas and arupavacara arupa jhanas. But they did attain arahatta magga nana through panna. This arising anagami magga lokuttara kusala citta is 84th citta or 89 cittas in total. As soon as it vanishes, there arise 2 successive phala cittas or fruition consciousness, which are the result of former citta anagami magga lokuttara kusala citta. No other kusala citta gives rise to their resultant citta vipaka immediately but lokuttara kusala cittas do this job immediately. If there is no parikamma kamavacara mahakusala citta, there will arise 3 successive anagami phala lokuttara vipaka cittas. This citta, anagami phala lokuttara vipaka citta is 88th citta of 89 cittas in total. I do hope this message is clear for everyone even though words are very heavy. There left only 2 cittas. After that we will have discussed all 89 cittas. Initially we have discussed some classifications. But as they are useful, they may reappear in later in this thread 'Dhamma Thread'. Citta is a reality. There are 89 cittas and nothing more than that. Citta and cetasikas are inseparable in a given citta. But as cetasikas do have their own characteristics and functions they do worth separate discussion. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta Htoo Naing PS:Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36673 From: nori Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nipâta Hi Howard, Just to add a little something to my last post ... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > Hi Howard, > > H: > > One more thing: The > > Buddha did mention what an *enormous* debt a person owes to his/her > parents, > > even to the point, as I vaguely recall, of the appropriateness of > carrying > > them around on his/her shoulders. (As you point out, in the case of > the > > Bodhisatta, his parents were well off, and, so, his leaving them > was not thoughtless > > as regards their financial welfare.) > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > > Yes, I remember that Sutta. > > Went something like: 'Even if one were to carry both parents around > on his shoulders, one would still not repay ones debt to his/her > parents; for parents do much, endure much, for their children.' > > Something like that, its from memory. > I find alot of the similies the Buddha made pretty funny. It seems he had a sense of humour, like in this example where he used the example of carrying around each parent on both shoulders. Its a funny image. Another one I found funny was a sutta where he gave an example where even if a bhikku stayed close to him at all times. Holding on to his robe, with each foot on top of Buddha's; taking a step every time he took a step; going where ever he goes. He said even if one were to stay that physically close to him, that would not make that bhikku close to him, where as one who practiced the dhamma would. Anyway, I thought that was pretty funny too. > I think an important point maybe, is that one should not go forth if > it is not appropriate for that one's life. > I remember in other suttas where he mentioned some other things that would make it inappropriate for one to go forth - like if one was in debt. Also, if one still lived for sensual pleasures, was still full of greed, etc. it would also not be appropriate. > I could imagine in some Buddhist countries, maybe, some parents being > happy and proud for their child if they have chosen to go forth. > > In this case it is probably appropriate. > > However, what do you think about going forth if doing so worried and > stressed the mother (even though being financially, and in other > aspects secure)? > > Thanks for your valuable feedback. > > > metta, > > nori H: At least in the Theravada tradition, as far as I know, one *may not* go forth without parental approval. (And I mean for adults too!) Are you sure about this ? Where did you hear this from ? metta, nori 36674 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:57am Subject: Re: Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. There are four classes of unhappy planes: the Hell planes, the plane of demons (asuras), the plane of Petas (ghosts) and the animal world. Nobody can escape the result of kamma. Even kamma of many lives ago may have an opportunity to produce an unhappy rebirth. ***** Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina and All, As soon as arahatta magga citta arises any kamma that may give rise to rebirth are destroyed. But there are still kamma as samsara has been very long. These remaining kamma while cannot give rise to rebirth, they may well give rise to their results in the course of life ( pavatti ). As soon as cuti citta of arahats arises, all existing kamma are destroyed completely. Result-ungiven kamma are called ahosi kamma. Until cuti citta of arahats, there are still many potentials that kamma can give rise to their effects. Please see in the case of Venerable Mahamoggallana. As he had the highest jhana power only second to The Buddha, he stayed away from the attackers who were appointed to disarm The Buddha that is to kill the left wing of The Buddha, Mahamoggallana. He stayed so three times. After the third attempt, he reconsidered and look into the past lives with pubbenivasa nana. Then he saw that he did very wicked akusala of killing own parents who were blinds and burden for them as advised by his young wife. This kamma was far away but when it comes... Kamma kamma kamma. No one is creating any thing. But own actions bring kamma immediately even though the results may come at any time. May be in the same life of arising of kamma or may be as long as kappas as in case of Venerable Mahamoggallana. Those who want to avoid unhappy rebirths have to do as many kusalas as possible. Bhavana kusalas will accumulate and at one time, when there are all the necessary conditions, then everything will be transcended. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36675 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:02am Subject: Re: Rob M'sTheory Behind The Buddha's Smile ( 05 ) by Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Rob M and All, > > Theory Behind The Buddha Smile by Rob M at Files section. > > Page 22, in the box. > > 1.A fruit falls = A mango falls. I would say a mango falls. Because > he knows that he is sleeping under a mango tree. > > 2.The man removes his headcovering = The man opens his eyes. I would > say eyes open. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Rob M, I hope you may be able to send your ebook one page a day to my address ' htootintnaing@y... ' starting from page 22. Thanks in advance. With Metta, Htoo Naing 36676 From: Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nipâta Hi, Nori - In a message dated 9/20/04 1:45:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Just to add a little something to my last post ... > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" > wrote: > >Hi Howard, > > > >H: > >>One more thing: The > >>Buddha did mention what an *enormous* debt a person owes to > his/her > >parents, > >>even to the point, as I vaguely recall, of the appropriateness > of > >carrying > >>them around on his/her shoulders. (As you point out, in the case > of > >the > >>Bodhisatta, his parents were well off, and, so, his leaving them > >was not thoughtless > >>as regards their financial welfare.) > >> > >>With metta, > >>Howard > > > > > >Yes, I remember that Sutta. > > > >Went something like: 'Even if one were to carry both parents > around > >on his shoulders, one would still not repay ones debt to his/her > >parents; for parents do much, endure much, for their children.' > > > >Something like that, its from memory. > > > > I find alot of the similies the Buddha made pretty funny. It seems > he had a sense of humour, like in this example where he used the > example of carrying around each parent on both shoulders. Its a > funny image. > ----------------------------------------------- I agree that he had a keen sense of humor. Moreover, besides being fully enlightened, I think he was absolutely *brilliant* intellectually. (Truly amazing!) BTW, as regards the parents-on-shoulders simile, one thought that occurs to me is that the image of carrying one's aged or ill or dependent parents in that way is reminiscent of how a parent might literally carry his young children. Perhaps eliciting such a recollection (and analogy) was intentional on the Buddha's part. The Buddha was a natural master of language and psychology. ----------------------------------------------- > > Another one I found funny was a sutta where he gave an example where > even if a bhikku stayed close to him at all times. Holding on to his > robe, with each foot on top of Buddha's; taking a step every time he > took a step; going where ever he goes. He said even if one were to > stay that physically close to him, that would not make that bhikku > close to him, where as one who practiced the dhamma would. Anyway, I > thought that was pretty funny too. > > >I think an important point maybe, is that one should not go forth > if > >it is not appropriate for that one's life. > > > > I remember in other suttas where he mentioned some other things that > would make it inappropriate for one to go forth - like if one was in > debt. Also, if one still lived for sensual pleasures, was still full > of greed, etc. it would also not be appropriate. > > >I could imagine in some Buddhist countries, maybe, some parents > being > >happy and proud for their child if they have chosen to go forth. > > > >In this case it is probably appropriate. > > > >However, what do you think about going forth if doing so worried > and > >stressed the mother (even though being financially, and in other > >aspects secure)? > > > >Thanks for your valuable feedback. > > > > > >metta, > > > >nori > > > H: At least in the Theravada tradition, as far as I know, one *may > not* go forth without parental approval. (And I mean for adults too!) > > > Are you sure about this ? > > Where did you hear this from ? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: A few years back I attended the ordination of a couple Americans at a Cambodian wat. I had been told by one of the ordinants, who is now very active as a teaching monk and meditator, that such was definitely required. I even recall the *very* touching moment at the ordination ceremony at which he sincerely, with great emotion, thanked his mother for giving her permission. There is also the following from the Buddhist monastic code, the section on ordination: "Applicants falling into the following categories should not be given the Going-forth. As the Going-forth is a preliminary procedure for full Acceptance, this means that they should not receive full Acceptance, either. Any bhikkhu who gives any of these applicants the Going-forth incurs a dukkata. However, the applicant does count as having properly gone forth; if accepted, he is properly accepted, and need not be expelled. (1) Those with obligations. This general category includes the following: (a) A son whose parents have not given their permission. According to the Commentary, this requirement includes foster parents as well as birth parents. There is no need to get a parent's permission if he/she is no longer alive or has abandoned the son. If the parents are divorced, there is no need to get permission from the parent without custody. If the parents are dead, and relatives have come to depend on the applicant, it's a wise policy to inform the relatives before giving him the Going-forth, so as to prevent disagreement, but there is no offense in not doing so. If an applicant ordains with his parents' permission, later disrobes, and then wants to reordain, he must receive his parents' permission again. If an applicant without his parents' permission threatens suicide or other disturbances if not given the Going-forth, the Commentary recommends giving him the Going-forth and then explaining the situation to the parents, advising them to talk to him. If an applicant -- even if he is an only child -- is far from home and asks for the Going-forth, it's allowable to give him the Going-forth and then to send him, with a number of bhikkhus, to inform the parents." ------------------------------------------------ > > > > metta, > > nori ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36677 From: Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nip... Hi again, Nori - In a message dated 9/20/04 2:47:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > A few years back I attended the ordination of a couple Americans at a > Cambodian wat. ======================= To clarify: The wat is in the United States. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36678 From: nori Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 2:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nipâta hi Howard, Thats interesting, considering the Buddha himself went forth despite all the pleading and effort his father gave for him not to go. I wonder if this is also included in the vinaya of the tipitaka ? Thanks for the info. peace, nori 36679 From: plnao Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Perfect Gift Hi Rob, and all Thanks, Rob, for encouraging us to practice dana in this way. This morning I read this from K Sujin: "One cannot develop panna if we don't see the value of dana and sila." (from "phrases" available at http://www.zolag.co.uk/ . Nice material for reflection.) It reminded me that with all my attachment to the idea of developing panna, I don't yet understand the value of dana. (I see the value of sila in helping to eradicate defilements - and that relates to my attachment to the idea of panna.) I hope that reading "Deeds of Merit" will help me develop my appreciation of dana. At this point, I am quite tied up in knots about seeing selfish motives behind much to do with dana. That will change, hopefully. (Our friend Antony hosts a Yahoo group devoted to dana. Perhaps if he sees this, he could provide us with a link.) > A sincere thanks for being a wet blanket. I have said it before :-) > and it is a generalization :-) but "I have never learned anything > from anybody who agreed with me!" The above is directed at Sarah, but if my wetblanket-ish comments in the tollbooth thread were able to help you see even one Dhamma point from a new angle, it would be one small step toward thanking you for all you've taught me (us.) I'll be returning to the tollbooth operators tonight or tommorow when I have time. > I know that one of the main weaknesses of my writing style is that I > tend to generalize. When you are being a wet blanket, you are > providing me with a reality check. Frankly, I feel that here on DSG > that I am among friends so I don't mind making mistakes and I really > appreciate it when I get corrected. Generalzing is not necessarily a mistake, if done with awareness, I think. If we want to introduce Dhamma to newcomers, I think some generalizing is necessary and helpful . In my opinion, we can't go straight to Abhidhamma, for example. > For the same reason, I really appreciate the detailed feedback (and > corrections) on my book from Htoo and Phil. This book is very > important to me. Htoo, Phil and Lee have provided me some excellent > feedback. See my comment above about returning a debt of gratitude to you. And I'd like to let everybody know that I wasn't foolish enough to try to make Dhamma-related comments to Rob similar to those of Htoo. My Dhamma insight is obviously not at that level. They were more in the line of proofreading, editing suggestions about areas that could be expanded etc. Otherwise I would share them here. (Sarah was asking me to do so...) Metta, Phil 36680 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:51pm Subject: RE: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Azita, Always good to read your posts. ========== Maybe it is true, what is being stated about wimmin! The Prophet Muhammad seemed to have a few wimmin problems - but then he had far too many wives!!!!!! We have learnt that a female can never become a Buddha, and [to stir the pot a bit further] it is stated somewhere - but can't say where - that it is somewhat better kamma to be born male than female. Whatever! and may we all have lots of patience, courage and good cheer, to put up with whatever we are. ========== What you say is true; we have learnt. It is a fact of life that the great books which folks use as their moral foundations become self-fulfilling prophecies. The status of women is a case in point. Noone need kid themselves that the improving status of women in the Western world is in any way due to the influence of any of the great books. To the contrary. It is precisely due to the declining influence of the great books that human beings of patience, courage, good cheer and a whole bunch of determination and wisdom can start to cut through the layers and layers of compounded social ignorance. Kind Regards Herman 36681 From: Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. Hi Nina, I was wondering why sense consciousness is more apparent than javana citta. There is only one sense consciousness but 7 javana cittas. Also, I don't see any difference between kusala and akusala visible object. They both are accompanied by neutral feeling. Javana must be a reaction to accumulations. Larry 36682 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:38pm Subject: RE: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Azita, Need to add "with any effect" to the last line so it becomes Hi Azita, Always good to read your posts. ========== Maybe it is true, what is being stated about wimmin! The Prophet Muhammad seemed to have a few wimmin problems - but then he had far too many wives!!!!!! We have learnt that a female can never become a Buddha, and [to stir the pot a bit further] it is stated somewhere - but can't say where - that it is somewhat better kamma to be born male than female. Whatever! and may we all have lots of patience, courage and good cheer, to put up with whatever we are. ========== What you say is true; we have learnt. It is a fact of life that the great books which folks use as their moral foundations become self-fulfilling prophecies. The status of women is a case in point. Noone need kid themselves that the improving status of women in the Western world is in any way due to the influence of any of the great books. To the contrary. It is precisely due to the declining influence of the great books that human beings of patience, courage, good cheer and a whole bunch of determination and wisdom can start to cut through the layers and layers of compounded social ignorance with any effect. Kind Regards Herman 36683 From: Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nipâta Hi, Nori - In a message dated 9/20/04 5:15:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > > hi Howard, > > Thats interesting, considering the Buddha himself went forth despite > all the pleading and effort his father gave for him not to go. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I guess the Buddha-to-be was the one to set the rules! ;-) ----------------------------------------- > > I wonder if this is also included in the vinaya of the tipitaka ? > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, sure. That's what I was referring to when I quoted the Buddhist monastic code. See, for example, the beginning of the article at the following url: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/ariyesako/layguide.html#bhikkhu ------------------------------------------ > > Thanks for the info. > > > peace, > > nori > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36684 From: plnao Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Herman, and all > Noone need kid themselves that the improving status of women in the > Western world is in any way due to the influence of any of the great > books. To the contrary. It is precisely due to the declining influence > of the great books that human beings of patience, courage, good cheer > and a whole bunch of determination and wisdom can start to cut through > the layers and layers of compounded social ignorance with any effect. Ph: Can't comment on whether this is true or not, but would like to point out that it sounds like the same kind of anti-intellectualism that makes many Western Buddhists (especially Zen) unwilling to tolerate discussion based on explicit references to the Buddha's teaching through sutta references, etc. We don't see that here, and I know Herman appreciates suttas, but I'm sure everybody has come across it in more general forums. Metta, Phil 36685 From: m. nease Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Rob (and Dan) ----- Original Message ----- From: "robmoult" To: Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 12:43 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Rob, ----- Original Message ----- From: "robmoult" To: Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 12:43 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] First I want to express my appreciation for your analysis (below). It clearly (I presume!) describes this chain of events, how it would vary depending on accumulations and is also a fine example, I think, of abhidhamma supporting and clarifying the Suttanta. Sticking my neck out a little, I wonder if this suggests to you any implications with regard to pa.ticcasamuppaada (particularly contact-feeling-desire-clinging-becoming) and/or momentary re-becoming (kha.nika punabbhava?). Thanks again and in advance. mike ____________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ The tree fell because conditions supported this falling (i.e. the roots gave way, there was a wind, etc. but nothing to do with kamma). Now to get technical... There was a tactile object (earth rupa) which arose together with body sensitivity (rupa) when "the tree" (tree is a concept) hit "the leg" (leg is a concept). To paraphrase the Honeyball Sutta (MN18), "Dependent on [body sensitivity] and [tactile object], [body] consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling." There are two types of body consciousness; one is called "akusala vipaka" and the other is "kusala vipaka". Which body consciousness will arise? It depends on the intrinsic nature of the tactile object. If this rupa is inherently undesireable (anittha), then this is a condition for an akusala vipaka body consciousness to arise (note that this citta always arises with painful bodily feeling). In other words, the painful bodily feeling arose because an intrinsically undesireable rupa (the tactile object) arose together with body sensitivity (another rupa). This feeling arose as part of a vipaka citta which carries the label "akusala". When the body consciousness citta accompanied by painful bodily feeling falls away, this is a condition for a new citta arise; a receiving citta accompanied by neutral mental feeling. The receiving citta accompanied by neutral mental feeling is followed by an investigating citta with neutral mental feeling. The falling away of the investigating citta is a condition for the arising of a determining citta with neutral mental feeling. The falling away of the determining citta with neutral mental feeling is a condition for the arising of a javana citta. But which javana citta will arise? This depends on our accumulations. For uninstructed worldlings (that's us), our accumulations are such that a dosa-mula javana citta will almost certainly arise. All dosa-mula cittas arise with unpleasant mental feeling. The sense-door citta process comes to an end and it is then followed by hundreds of thousands of mind-door citta processes that "name", "think about" and "mentally proliferate" (see Honeyball Sutta). In the case of the tree and the leg, most of the javana cittas part of these mind-door processes will be dosa-mula with unpleasant mental feeling. In other words, the painful bodily feeling is over in the duration of a single citta and it is followed by a few cittas accompanied by neutral mental feeling and then by an unbelieveably huge number of cittas accompanied by unpleasant mental feeling. Clearly, pain is almost all in the mind! Now what would happen if a tree were to fall on the leg of an Anagami or an Arahant? There would still be painful bodily feeling during the body consciousness citta. The following receiving, investigating and determining cittas will be with neutral mental feeling (same as for us). However, Anagamis and Arahants no longer has the accumulations to support the arising of dosa so there will be no dosa-mula cittas with unpleasant mental feeling. 36686 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:50pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Mike, Nice to hear from you again! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Sticking my neck out a little, I wonder if this suggests to you any > implications with regard to pa.ticcasamuppaada (particularly > contact-feeling-desire-clinging-becoming) and/or momentary re- becoming > (kha.nika punabbhava?). > I have not yet made the connection between the citta process and paticcasamuppada (I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, but I am saying that I haven't seen it yet). As I see it, both describe natural processes at a detailed level. The citta process describes how the mind works with an object while paticcasamuppada describes what binds us to samsara. This binding to samsara can be looked at from the macro level (three cycles / lifetimes) or from a micro level (momentary rebecoming). Studying the citta process in detail has been a great framework for me to better understand the Dhamma. Even this current discussion with Dan has prompted me to examine asynchronous kamma condition in more depth. Mike, your comment has triggered a new line of thinking. I note that the Buddha never discussed the details of the citta process; there are brief allusions to the process in the Patthana and in Buddhaghosa's works, but the details were not laid out until about 1500 years after the Buddha's parinibbana in the Abhidhammatthasangaha. On the other hand, the Buddha put a lot of effort in explaining paticcasamuppada. Clearly, the Buddha placed a lot of importance on understanding paticcasamuppada whereas the citta process was not a very important issue to Him. Mike, thanks to your prompting, I am going to start to explore paticcasamuppada in more depth. I will start by re-posting an earlier message that describes paticcasamuppada by way of Patthana Conditions. Let's see what the feedback is! Metta, Rob M :-) 36687 From: robmoult Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:54pm Subject: Paticca-samuppada by way of Patthana Conditions (Simplified but still long) Hi All, The following was taken from Abhidhamma lecture notes prepared by U Silananda. It has been simplified to exclude: - rupavacara cittas and arupavacara cittas - non-human planes of existence --- 1. Conditioned by ignorance, formations arise. [see Vism XVII 102- 103] Ignorance = moha concomitant with 12 akusala cittas Formations of merit (punnabhisankhara) = cetana in 8 kusala cittas Formations of demerit (apunnabhisankhara) = cetana in 12 akusala cittas Ignorance conditions formations of merit through object condition and decisive support condition Ignorance conditions formations of demerit through: - Object condition - Arammanadhipati (variety of predominance condition) - Arammanupanissaya (variety of decisive support condition) - Decisive support condition - Proximity condition - Contiguity condition - Anantarupanissaya (variety of decisive support condition) - Repetition condition - Absence condition - Disappearance condition - Root condition - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition --- 2. Conditioned by formations, consciousness arises [see Vism XVII 177-180] Formations of merit (punnabhisankhara) = cetana in 8 kusala cittas Formations of demerit (apunnabhisankhara) = cetana in 12 akusala cittas Consciousness = 23 vipaka cittas (7 akusala vipaka + 8 kusala vipaka + 8 mahavipaka) At the time of rebirth, cetana in 8 kusala cittas conditions 8 mahavipaka cittas (i.e. as bhavanga) or kusala vipaka investigating citta with indifferent feeling (i.e. bhavanga for disabled humans) through asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition. During existence, cetana in 8 kusala cittas conditions 8 rootless kusala vipaka cittas through asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition. During existence, cetana in 12 akusala cittas conditions 7 rootless kusala vipaka cittas through asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition. --- 3. Conditioned by consciousness, nama, rupa and namarupa arise [see Vism XVII 201] Consciousness = consciousness concomitant with 23 vipaka cittas + consciousness concomitant with 20 kusala / akusala cittas + "all other consciousness" Nama = 52 cetasikas Rupa = 4 primary elements plus depending ones (i.e. all matter) At the time of rebirth and during existence, consciousness concomitant with 23 vipaka cittas conditions cetasikas concomitant with 23 vipaka cittas through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Faculty condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At the time of rebirth, consciousness concomitant with 23 vipaka cittas conditions rupa through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition (only applies to heart-base rupa) - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Faculty condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At the time of rebirth and during existence, consciousness concomitant with 20 kusala / akusala cittas conditions kamma- produced rupa through decisive support condition. At the time of rebirth and during existence, other consciousness conditions namarupa through as appropriate (Vism XVII 201 states, "but since the whole contents of the Patthana must be cited in order to show how it acts in detail, we do not undertake that.") --- 4. Conditioned by nama, rupa and namarupa, the sixth base and sixfold base arise [see Vism XVII 209 - 217] Nama = 52 cetasikas Rupa = 4 primaries, 6 base matters, jivita and ahara Six bases = eye-base, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-base At time of rebirth, cetasikas concomitant with vipaka cittas with heart-base condition the mind-base through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At time of rebirth, cetasikas concomitant with vipaka cittas with 4 primaries condition the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Conascence condition - Support condition - Result condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, cetasikas concomitant with vipaka cittas condition the vipaka heartbase through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, cetasikas concomitant with non-vipaka cittas condition the non-vipaka heartbase through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, cetasikas concomitant with sense vipaka cittas (eye, ear, etc) condition the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Postnascence condition - Mutuality condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, cetasikas concomitant with non-vipaka cittas condition the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Postnascence condition - Mutuality condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At time of rebirth, the heart-base conditions the mind-base through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At time of rebirth and during existence, the 4 primaries condition the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Conascence condition - Support condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At time of rebirth and during existence, jivita conditions the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Faculty condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, ahara conditions the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) through: - Nutriment condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, the 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) condition mind- base associated with eye-consciousness, etc. through: - Support condition - Prenascence condition - Faculty condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition During existence, the heart base conditions other mind-base through: - Support condition - Prenascence condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At time of rebirth, the 52 cetasikas and heartp-base (namarupa) conditions the mindbase through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Association condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition --- 5. Conditioned by sixth base and sixfold base, contact arises [See Vism XVII 227] Six bases = eye-base, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind-base; or visible-data base, sound base, odour-, flavour-, tangible-data base, dhamma base Contact = eye-contact, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind contact; eye-contact = phassa concomitant with 2 eye-consciousness cittas, ear-contact = phassa concomitant with 2 ear-consciousness cittas, etc., mind-contact = phassa concomitant with 13 vipaka cittas (2 akusala vipaka + 3 kusala vipaka + 8 mahavipaka) The 5 sense-bases (eye-base, etc.) condition the 5 sense-contacts (eye-contact, etc.) through: - Support condition - Prenascence condition - Faculty condition - Disassociation condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Vipaka mind-base conditions vipaka mind contact through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Faculty condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Visible-data base (sound base, etc.) conditions eye-contact (ear- contact, etc.) through: - Object condition - Prenascence condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition At the present moment, visible-data base (sound base, etc.) conditions mind contact through: - Object condition - Prenascence condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Dhamma base conditions mind contact in the past and future through object condition only. --- 6. Conditioned by contact, feeling arises. [See Vism XVII 231 - 232] Contact = eye-contact, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, mind contact; eye-contact = phassa concomitant with 2 eye-consciousness cittas, ear-contact = phassa concomitant with 2 ear-sonsciousness cittas, etc., mind-contact = phassa concomitant with 13 vipaka cittas (2 akusala vipaka + 3 kusala vipaka + 8 mahavipaka) Feeling = feeling born of eye contact, etc.; vedana concomitant with the 23 vipaka cittas (same set of cittas for which phassa is concomitant) Eye-contact (ear-contact, etc.) conditions vedana dependent on eye- base (ear-base, etc.) through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Eye-contact (ear-contact, etc.) conditions vedana concomitant with receiving, investigating and registration cittas through natural decisive support condition. Mind contact conditions vedana concomitant with registration cittas through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Mind contact conditions vedana concomitant with patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti cittas through: - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Result condition - Nutriment condition - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition Mind contact concomitant with mind door conditions vendana concomitant with registration cittas through natural decisive support condition. --- 7. Conditioned by feeling, craving arises. [See Vism XVII 237-238] Feeling = vipaka sukha vedana or vipaka sukha, dukkha and upekkha vedana, or non-vipaka vedana Craving = Craving for sensuous data (visible-data, sound, odour, flavour, tangible-data, dhamma-data) All types of feeling (vipaka sukha vedana, vipaka sukha, dukkha and upekkha vedana, non-vipaka vedana) condition craving through natural decisive support condition. --- 8. Conditioned by craving, clinging arises. [See Vism XVII 248] Craving = Craving for sensuous data (visible-data, sound, odour, flavour, tangible-data, dhamma-data) Clinging = sense desire clinging, false-view clinging, rite-and- ritual clinging, self-clinging (varieties of lobha and ditthi) Craving conditions the arising of sense-desire clinging through natural decisive support condition. Craving conditions the arising of false-view clinging, rite-and- ritual clinging and self-clinging through: - Root condition - Conascence condition - Mutuality condition - Support condition - Natural decisive support condition (without conascence condition) - Association condition - Presence condition - Nondisappearance condition --- 9. Conditioned by clinging, becoming arises. [See Vism XVII 269] Clinging = sense desire clinging, false-view clinging, rite-and- ritual clinging, self-clinging (varieties of lobha and ditthi) Becoming (bhava) = kamma process (kamma-bhava) + rebirth process (upapatti-bhava) Kamma process (kamma-bhava) = cetana and lobha, etc. concomitant with it Rebirth process (upapatti-bhava) = vipaka aggregates and kammaja-rupa Clinging conditions the arising of becoming through support condition. --- 10. Conditioned by becoming, birth arises. Becoming = kamma process (kamma-bhava) only, not rebirth process (upapatti-bhava) --- 11. Conditioned by birth; aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair arises. [See Vism XVII 270] Kamma process (kamma-bhava) conditions the arising of birth through kamma and support condition. Birth conditions the arising of aging, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair through support condition. Metta, Rob M :-) 36688 From: Antony Woods Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:46pm Subject: most moving Buddha quote Dear Sarah and DSG, Veneration to the Most Exalted, the Purified, the Supremely Enlightened Buddha Buddha said: "And what is the taking on of a practice that is painful in the present but yields happiness in the future? There is the case of a person who is normally strongly passionate by nature and frequently experiences pain & grief born of passion; a person who is normally strongly aversive by nature and frequently experiences pain & grief born of aversion; a person who is normally strongly deluded by nature and frequently experiences pain & grief born of delusion. Even though touched with pain & grief, weeping with tearful face, he lives the holy life that is utterly perfect, surpassingly pure. With the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the good bourn, the heavenly world. This is called the taking on of a practice that is painful in the present but yields happiness in the future. Translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu adapted by Antony Woods http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn045.html Comment: I find this one of the most moving paragraphs in the Pali Canon. Maybe I identify with this monk as a martyr who is missing out on having a good time and grieving in such a way that is healthy and beneficial. Normally people are supposed to be ashamed of their suffering. Comments welcome. Thanks / Antony. 36689 From: Antony Woods Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:00pm Subject: Re: The Perfect Gift Dear Sarah, Rob M and all, From "The Gift of Life" by Ven. Dr. Sobhita Thero "There are three ways in the practice of dana: 1. Danaparami - This is the commonly understood practice of the giving of one's wealth, food and labour. 2. Dana upa parami - This is a more vigorous form of giving, such as the donation of one's blood, body parts or organs for the needy. 3. Dana paramattha parami - This is the highest form of giving in which one sacrifices one's life for the sake of others. http://www.4ui.com/eart/159eart1.htm Comment: Don't read the rest of the article! metta / Antony. 36690 From: m. nease Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] Hi Rob, ----- Original Message ----- From: "robmoult" To: Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 5:50 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: 21 questions...[Herman: "how you will see..."] > Nice to hear from you again! My pleasure--I skip a lot of your posts (or skim at best) as they tend to be over my head. Glad to find one pared down to my size for a change...! > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" > wrote: > > Sticking my neck out a little, I wonder if this suggests to you any > > implications with regard to pa.ticcasamuppaada (particularly > > contact-feeling-desire-clinging-becoming) and/or momentary re- > becoming > > (kha.nika punabbhava?). > > I have not yet made the connection between the citta process and > paticcasamuppada (I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, but I am > saying that I haven't seen it yet). The links I've separated out (contact-feeling-desire-clinging-becoming) seem to me very suggestive of everyday, momentary experience--hence my question. > As I see it, both describe natural processes at a detailed level. > The citta process describes how the mind works with an object while > paticcasamuppada describes what binds us to samsara. These are usually treated as two different subjects--I think they may be more or less identical. The latter seems always to be taken to pertain to the end of 'this life' and the beginning of 'the next life'. I don't dispute this but, if 'this life' and 'the next life' are concepts (and I think they are), then this opens a big door with regard to the implications of pa.ticcasamuppaada to the present moment. I assume (presume?) you would agree that sa.msaara is spinning along with 'us' at every moment? In other words, it doesn't seem to me that the wheel only turns at the beginnings and endings of conventional lifetimes. > This binding to samsara can be looked at from the macro level (three > cycles / lifetimes) or from a micro level (momentary rebecoming). Right-- > Studying the citta process in detail has been a great framework for > me to better understand the Dhamma. Even this current discussion > with Dan has prompted me to examine asynchronous kamma condition in > more depth. Me too--the whole exchange has been interesting. > Mike, your comment has triggered a new line of thinking. > > I note that the Buddha never discussed the details of the citta > process; there are brief allusions to the process in the Patthana > and in Buddhaghosa's works, but the details were not laid out until > about 1500 years after the Buddha's parinibbana in the > Abhidhammatthasangaha. > > On the other hand, the Buddha put a lot of effort in explaining > paticcasamuppada. > Clearly, the Buddha placed a lot of importance on > understanding paticcasamuppada Clearly! The Buddha said that 'who sees the Dhamma sees the Tathagata; Sariputta, whom the Buddha called the General of the Dhamma, said (quoting the Buddha in Maha-hatthipadopama Sutta and elsewhere, I think) "Now, the Blessed One has said, "Whoever sees dependent co-arising sees the Dhamma; whoever sees the Dhamma sees dependent co-arising."* > whereas the citta process was not a > very important issue to Him. Unless this understanding was an essential part of his penetration of pa.ticcasamuppaada--If true, then maybe he left it to his chief disciple, known for understanding, to pass it along to those able to comprehend it. > Mike, thanks to your prompting, I am going to start to explore > paticcasamuppada in more depth. I will start by re-posting an > earlier message that describes paticcasamuppada by way of Patthana > Conditions. I tried reading it--back to the children's table for me. I'll be eavesdropping, though. > Let's see what the feedback is! Look forward to it--thanks again, Rob. mike 36691 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:36pm Subject: RE: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Phil, Thanks for your comments. ======================== > Noone need kid themselves that the improving status of women in the > Western world is in any way due to the influence of any of the great > books. To the contrary. It is precisely due to the declining influence > of the great books that human beings of patience, courage, good cheer > and a whole bunch of determination and wisdom can start to cut through > the layers and layers of compounded social ignorance with any effect. Ph: Can't comment on whether this is true or not, but would like to point out that it sounds like the same kind of anti-intellectualism that makes many Western Buddhists (especially Zen) unwilling to tolerate discussion based on explicit references to the Buddha's teaching through sutta references, etc. We don't see that here, and I know Herman appreciates suttas, but I'm sure everybody has come across it in more general forums. ========================= There is not an ounce of life in the logjam of tradition, Phil, and that is my considered opinion :-). You have represented me well, though, I do appreciate the suttas, especially when I see the truth in them (the relationship between what is put forward in them and how reality seems to unfold). But I never feel the obligation to just uphold the "tradition", or to swallow some of the utter tripe that is passed of as wisdom by some of the hangers-on of the tradition. To be honest, I cannot say I have ever seen any willingness on your behalf to begin to contemplate the very uncontroversial notion that most of what you take as Gospel has nothing to do with the Buddha's teaching. I am very happy to discuss just about anything, as you know, but never on the basis that because a statement is in the canon it must be true and real. There is no difference, in effect, between the Holy See of Rome and the Holy See of Ceylon. Who is calling who what here? :-) Kind Regards Herman 36692 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Dear Nina, Howard and Ken O, Thank you for your helpful comments. I tend to get locked into my own preferred ways of understanding dhammas, and it's not always easy to hear what other people are trying to tell me. At least I was partly right: we all agree that our conventional understandings of attachment, anger and unpleasant feeling etc., stem from our experiences of lobha, dosa, domanassa and other cetasikas. That is to say, citta has taken those cetasikas as object (arammana) on various occasions. I took this a step further and assumed that our concepts of `experiencer' and `experiencing' must also have had their origins in paramattha dhammas. I assumed citta had alternative ways of cognising a nama - sometimes seeing it as the "expereincer" (the seer, the hearer, the liker, the disliker, . . ) , and sometimes seeing it simply as the experiencing (seeing, hearing, liking, disliking). That was a wrong assumption. I gather now it is always the latter way. The former belongs purely to intellectual (conceptual) understanding. Even though I liked my old theory, I can live with this new one. If it's in the texts, that's all I need to know. :-) At the risk of confusing the issue, can I ask; is it different when there is panna? When citta, for example, is directly understood as nama (as distinct from rupa), is it still being experienced as 'seeing' 'hearing' etc., or is it being experienced as, "the dhamma that sees?" Kind regards, Ken H 36693 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eight attainments (attha samaapattiyo) Dear Christine and Rob K, Christine, thank you very much. I have the Co in Pali and in Thai. op 19-09-2004 22:23 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth1@b...: This sutta lists the five detrimental things that lead to the decay and disappearance of the true Dhamma. The fifth detrimental thing is that the bhikkhus, the bhikkhunis, the male lay followers, and the female lay followers dwell without reverence and deference towards concentration. Bhikkhu Bodhi explains: "Spk: One dwells without reverence for concentration when one does not attain the eight attainments (attha samaapattiyo) or make any effort to attain them". N: Sutta: The reasons are given for the disappearance of the true Dhamma.When bhikkhus, bhikkhuunis, laymen and laywomen live in disrespect for the Teacher, the Dhamma, the Sangha, the training, and with regard to concentration, samaadhi. B.B. gave a note that this, according to the Co refers to the eight samaapatti (ruupajhaana and aruupajhaana). When we read just this note we may think that also laypeople should make an effort for jhaana. But we should look at the context of this passage of the Co. The Co states that when the practice is accomplished, the realisation (pativedha) will be accomplished. But disrespect leads to the decay of the True dhamma. The Co then elaborates on disrespectful conduct of bhikkhus. A bhikhu carries an umbrella when visiting a stupa, he wears shoes and looks somewhere else. He does not have respect for the Teacher. A bhikkhu is disrespectful when he should listen to Dhamma. He ssleeps while he sits, or he chats and is distracted. He is disrespectful to the Dhamma. Irreverence to the Sangha: the bhikkhu goes to an Elder and sits down without greeting. His behaviour is careless and disrespectful. He does not accept the exhortation of elderly bhikkhus. N: note that here the Co speaks about the bhikkhu's conduct, about his life as a bhikkhu. Co:Irreverence to the threefold training (sikkhaa: siila, samaadhi and paññaa): and no development of the eight attainments, no effort for these. N: Note: this passage comes straight after the passage about the bhikkhu's conduct. I do not see that this implies that all laypeople have to make an effort for jhana. In the sutta it is said: samaadhi, not jhaana. I shall say more about samaadhi. This is an opportunity to go into another text: who is concentrated sees things as they really are (In Vis. and the Transcendental Dependent Arising, Upanisaa Sutta.) This is often quoted. Samaadhi is the proximate cause of seeing things as they are. Rob K wrote about this: op 10-09-2004 03:28 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: > Samma-samadhi is a most necessary ingredient of the eighfactored > path but we must know that it can only arise when there is > samma-ditthi. You can ask Nina too, but I think I am right in saying > that 'proximate cause' doesn't always mean in time sequence. The > Patthana gives conditions that are co-nascent arisng at the same > time. Some teachers don't study Abhidhamma and may tend to > interpret 'proximate' as always meaning prior. N: Not always prior, we have to study the context. In the Upanisaa Sutta, samaadhi is the supporting condition for ñaa.nadassana. Seeing things as they are (yathaabhuuta). This sutta deals with the development of jhana and then, with jhana as foundation, with the development of vipassana. Samaadhi here is not without paññaa, because it is bhaavana, mental development. There are many degrees of samaadhi. Those who do not develop jhaana also need samaadhi when they listen to the Dhamma, study and consider it. In fact, the Dhamma is one of the Recollections, meditation subjects of Samatha. When laypeople behave as the bhikkhu in the Sutta about the Counterfeit Dhamma, they do not consider the dhamma properly, their thoughts are wandering. When there is an opportunity to listen, but one is chatting and thinking of other things, one does not listen and consider with full attention, there is no samaadhi and no understanding. When one listens and considers the Dhamma with full attention, with concentration and understanding, understanding can grow and develop into insight knowledge that sees things as they really are. Moreover, as insight develops in stages, also momentary concentration, khanika samaadhi will develop due to conditions. Nina. 36694 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Dear Rob M, When considering the brahmaviharas, the characteristic etc, concerns only one's own citta. We do not think of the effect op 20-09-2004 10:44 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > - Pleasant mental feeling arising with akusala cittas is > characterized as inducing excitement whereas pleasant mental feeling > arising with kusala cittas is characterized as inducing calm; the > type of smiles I get back are of the "calm" type, not of > the "excited" type N: The question here is: with oneself. We do not mind about the smiles we get back, whether they are excited or calm. We cannot correct the others. R: my > smile certainly prompted the toll booth operator's reaction > - mudita can be considered as succeeding when it makes boredom > subside and failing when it produces merriment (excitement) > > In summary, I feel the odds are extremely good that mudita is > arising in the mind of the toll booth operator (but of course, I > cannot be 100% sure). N: When we do not mind too much about others' reactions we can be more detached, have more equanimity. I am sure you do not think: Oh, oh, how will she/he react to me, but a reader may think that you do while reading the above. Say someone does not like us, but we have metta to him, that is important, the metta citta. What is the citta like. At the same time, one can in this way help others more.Some people may find this a paradox. I find. as Phil does, eqaunimity important for all brahmaviharas, otherwise I get too involved with people's thoughts, with their lives. I get touchy and vulnerable. Nina. P.S. Looking at kamma. Anyway, hard to pinpoint. If we try, it can lead to confusion. 36695 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Japanese temples. Hello Phil, another text: T.A. (Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, p. 207): it is in the context of rebirth-consciousness, but it is for all cittas: (Dhp 1,2.) op 20-09-2004 04:31 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > > Thanks also for your feedback about dhammapda 1:1 and cittas. Very helpful. 36696 From: Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Hi, Ken (and Nina) - In a message dated 9/21/04 1:07:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Dear Nina, Howard and Ken O, > > Thank you for your helpful comments. I tend to get locked into my > own preferred ways of understanding dhammas, and it's not always > easy to hear what other people are trying to tell me. > > At least I was partly right: we all agree that our conventional > understandings of attachment, anger and unpleasant feeling etc., > stem from our experiences of lobha, dosa, domanassa and other > cetasikas. That is to say, citta has taken those cetasikas as object > (arammana) on various occasions. > > I took this a step further and assumed that our concepts > of `experiencer' and `experiencing' must also have had their origins > in paramattha dhammas. I assumed citta had alternative ways of > cognising a nama - sometimes seeing it as the "expereincer" (the > seer, the hearer, the liker, the disliker, . . ) , and sometimes > seeing it simply as the experiencing (seeing, hearing, liking, > disliking). > > That was a wrong assumption. I gather now it is always the latter > way. The former belongs purely to intellectual (conceptual) > understanding. Even though I liked my old theory, I can live with > this new one. If it's in the texts, that's all I need to know. :-) > > At the risk of confusing the issue, can I ask; is it different when > there is panna? When citta, for example, is directly understood as > nama (as distinct from rupa), is it still being experienced > as 'seeing' 'hearing' etc., or is it being experienced as, "the > dhamma that sees?" > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ============================= As I see it, we human beings, and probably sentient beings in general, are, in reality, regularly aware of being aware, not as an experiencer grasping an act of experiencing as an object, however, but nonreflectively. Moreover, I believe that, in reality, whenever there is experiencing of anything, what that amounts to is merely the presence of content, and not a subject grasping an object. However, by in large - that is to say, typically - the way experiencing actually works is *not* the way it seems! We *seem* to experience as an experiencer grasping an experienced thing, a "true subject" grasping a "true object". That is actually the norm! But it is illusion, a mere seeming. It is the ignorance-conditioned, false "look" to experiencing that is standard for the non-arahant, but decreasingly so, I believe, for higher and higher stages of ariyahood. In recent posts of Nina's and mine, there seems to have been a rapprochement of view. It may well be so that our understandings do indeed touch at several points. I'm just not certain exactly at how many points or exactly which ones. I'm not entirely certain that there may not be some mutual misunderstanding of our positions, and that perhaps we are further apart that it seems. But I must say that I do find the apparent agreement quite pleasant, and so I will enjoy it while I can! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36697 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Herman, and all. Points well taken. I really shouldn't have interjected in this thread, so let's leave it at that, if that's ok with you. And bring it back to the issue. While I'm at it, I'll add a note of appreciation for Matt's post. I think too much attention to historical matters and controversies can distract us from the matter at hand. Investigating realities here and now. Metta, Phil 36698 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] most moving Buddha quote Dear Antony & Phil, Antony’s post with the helpful quote is very timely as it neatly addresses some comments I was planning to make in reply to a great post of Phil’s (on the topic of eradicating defilements #36465). --- Antony Woods wrote: <...> >Even though touched with pain & grief, > weeping with tearful face, he lives the holy life that is > utterly perfect, surpassingly pure. With the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the good bourn, the heavenly world. > This is called the taking on of a practice that is painful in the > present but yields happiness in the future. > > Translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu adapted by Antony Woods > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn045.html > A: > Comment: I find this one of the most moving paragraphs in the Pali Canon. .... S: This is followed by the example of the one who doesn’t have strong lust etc. I think the point is that what is of most importance is the living of the ‘holy life’, in other words, the development of wisdom which understands dhammas as they are at this very moment -- conditioned, unalterable, impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self. Not only do they change from life to life, but from moment to moment. We have no idea what our kamma will produce or what accumulated tendencies will arise, but satipatthana can be developed at any moment, regardless of the propensity for lust or aversion. .... A: > Maybe I identify with this monk as a martyr who is missing out on having > a good time and grieving in such a way that is healthy and beneficial. > Normally people are supposed to be ashamed of their suffering. ... S: I don’t think any ‘grieving’ is ever ‘healthy and beneficial’ as it’s always rooted in dosa (aversion) and follows as a result of the passion, aversion and delusion. But as you suggest, being ‘ashamed’ as we usually use this word is useless as it just adds more aversion as Phil pointed out before. When there is understanding, there is acceptance and detachment and no idea of these being ‘my’ states. If we have an idea of any kind of martyrdom or torment as being noble in any way, I think we’re in danger of slipping into the second group who practice ‘torment’ and ascetic practices whicharen’t healthy in any way. Phil referred to manifestations of strong akusala and how these can help one to reflect on the teachings and I agree with this. If there is a beginning of understanding of the dhammas in our life and the unpredictability of the arising of them, there can be awareness and wise reflection when even these very unwelcome visitors make their appearance. I mentioned that I find suttas or Jataka tales which highlight extreme perversions rather helpful for reflection. For one thing, we see that these are far more common than we might think and ‘our’ defilements are not anything special. Our latent tendencies are such that almost anything is possible under the ‘right’ conditions whilst we’re still beginners on the path (and Phil, a few years or decades or even lifetimes with just a very little sati and panna arising when there are favourable conditions are really drops in the ocean of samsara;-)). Phil, I also wished to add that I think it’s natural that when we hear, consider and begin to appreciate the great value of the teachings on anatta, that we continue to look for loop-holes such as looking to perform good deeds which will bring good results or try to organise our lives in a way to avoid excesses with a deep-rooted idea that we really do have some control and so on. In discussions on performing merit including dana, as we’ve both discussed, the motives and cittas tend to be very mixed. When we’re so concerned to be the one performing dana, at times isn’t this a clinging to self, clinging to being the kind person who receives good results? These are just more of my wet blanket comments (and babble;-)) and I’d be grateful for your fabric softening comments for the following one in particular. Antony, you kindly pointed me to some very interesting posts you’d written elsewhere. I just read two or three of the most recent ones only as this list is so busy already. I have no doubt at all about your wonderful accumulations for generosity and they’re a great example for us all. Thank you for sharing these again. I particularly appreciated your honesty in a message I read when you said, ‘I am deluded in thinking that the quality of making merit equates with ME feeling good rather than focusing on the benefit of others’. As Phil has commented before here, we cannot perform all the kind acts we’d like because of financial constraints and because we have to consider family views and concerns. I think this is the right attitude. If one’s deeds are at the expense of family unhappiness or if they lead to secrecy or a lack of respect for the different views of others, then we need to pause and reflect, I think. We can find other ways to help or show kindness that are acceptable to those around us and which don’t involve secrecy or possible dismay. They don’t need to cost money and may just be the appreciation of others’ kind deeds, for example. If we are performing good deeds in order to be a good person, there is no development of understanding with detachment from the presently arising states as you hinted at so well in your ME comment. Phil, back to your post #36465. I disagree with the comments which suggest there cannot be ‘even the smallest steps’ in the development of wisdom whilst ‘very crude defilements’ are still apparent. When you say ‘we have to clean out the gross matter first’ and that you think ‘practices that might seem self-driven on the surface can do that’ (such as the fabric-softening ones), I think this is an example of looking for one of those loop-holes or a lack of confidence in the real power of panna and sati to perform their tasks. It’s back to the idea of a ‘self’ doing a clean-up first, ready for some anatta understanding when the place has been tidied up, isn’t it? We follow our own ways, whether fabric-softening ones or any other kinds, but we need to remember that any of these ways are conditioned and anatta. Even when we think ‘we have to clean out....first’, it’s conditioned thinking that thinks like this which can be known when it arises. I understand your concern about truly crude defilements arising and of course right understanding doesn’t mean ‘go to the nightclub and just have sati’. We may resolve to stay away and go in any case or there may be cruder defilements arising at home than at the night-club. So it still comes back to the present moment and understanding dhammas rather than any wrong idea of a self that can choose and select what dhamma will arise at any moment. As you found, we can learn good lessons from shocking displays of kilesa at work and it’s helpful to be reminded again of what beginners we are. It’s panna with accompanying sobhana cetasikas like hiri and ottappa that will know these states for what they are when they appear. Truly, Phil, I certainly speak for myself here as well when it comes to experience of seeing lots of rot under the mildest of provocations. However, I also have a lot of confidence that the house only begins to really come clean with the development of vipassana. Just one moment of wisdom (at even a beginning level) is like a clean sweep. Anything else is a temporary, surface spot-clean in comparison. Like you, I forget much or most of what I read or hear, but there is no escaping the fact that life only exists in a moment, one world at a time. What’s gone has gone and there can be another beginning of awareness right now if we’ve heard and considered about the present dhammas. If there is awareness of seeing, for example, there is no ‘Phil’, ‘Antony’, ‘Sarah’, ‘strong lust or aversion’. Just ‘seeing’. Like you, I feel a lot of gratitude for having the opportunity to hear about the Truths taught by the Tathagata. So let me sign off with part of another wonderful sutta Antony quoted which reminds us that even the Tathagata is a concept. Metta, Sarah Antony:<....> "How do you construe this, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?" "No, lord." "How do you construe this: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?" "No, lord." "Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?" "No, lord." "And so, Anuradha -- when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life -- is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata -- the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment -- being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?" "No, lord." "Very good, Anuradha. Very good. Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-086.html ========================== 36699 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:00am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner16-Contact /Phassa(b) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.1, Contact (Phassa)contd] ***** The universals arise with every citta and thus they arise with all the cittas of the four jatis: with akusala citta, kusala citta, vipakacitta and kiriyacitta. They arise with all cittas in all planes of existence where there is nama: with the cittas of the woeful planes, in the human being plane, in the deva planes, in the rupa-brahma-planes, except the asanna-satta plane (the plane where there is only rupa not nama) (See my Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 20) and in the arupa-brahma planes. They arise with all cittas of all planes of consciousness: with kamavacara-cittas (sensuous plane of citta), with rupavacara cittas (Plane of rupa-jhanacittas), arupavacara cittas (plane of arupa-jhanacittas) and with lokuttara cittas (cittas which experience nibbana) (Ibidem, Chapter 19) Contact, in Pali: phassa, is mentioned first among the universals. Phassa arises together with every citta; it "contacts" the object so that citta can experience it. When seeing experiences visible object, phassa which accompanies seeing-consciousness also experiences visible object but it performs its own function. At that moment phassa "contacts" visible object and conditions seeing-consciousness to see. The Atthasalini (Expositor, Part IV, chapter I, 108) states about contact: Contact means "it touches" It has touching as its salient characteristic, impact as its function, "coinciding" (of the physical base, object and consciousness) as its manifestation, and the object which has entered the avenue (of awareness) as proximate cause . The Visuddhimagga (Path of Purification XIV, 134) gives a similar definition. ***** [Contact (Phassa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 36700 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:25am Subject: RE: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hi Phil, Thank you for your post. I sincerely hope you don't mind me replying to your posts. I certainly have no problems with your posts. Investigating realities here and now sounds the go to me, too. This would certainly include awareness of whether I am using women as cheaper labour-saving devices or as objects for my own sexual gratification, or whether I judge anything women do or say on the basis that it comes from a woman, not on the merit of the action. While matters of social justice may seem grossly conceptual, I do not think one can proceed with any success to waking up to the subtler tricks of the mind without first recognizing the gross (and baseless) foundations on which we predicate our existences. Just my three pennies, of course Kind Regards Herman ======== Points well taken. I really shouldn't have interjected in this thread, so let's leave it at that, if that's ok with you. And bring it back to the issue. While I'm at it, I'll add a note of appreciation for Matt's post. I think too much attention to historical matters and controversies can distract us from the matter at hand. Investigating realities here and now. Metta, Phil 36701 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Predicting the future Hi Herman, --- Herman Hofman wrote: > I have acquired the habit of assuming that all canonical predictions of > the future originate from sources that haven't quite understood the > teachings of the Buddha. > > I would be happy to receive any feedback on this, no matter how wrong I > turn out to be :-) ... S: I don't think we can ever over-estimate the omniscient knowledge of the Buddha , including his knowledge of any conditions or accumulations he put his mind to. See 'omniscience' in U.P. perhaps. Obviously those who don't accept the authenticity of the Kathavathu, will not accept the commentary to it either;-) Anytime I say 'the Buddha said...' or 'the Buddha predicted...', pls just read it as: 'Sarah says that according to her very limited understanding of what she reads in the xyz text, which has been included in the accepted and approved Theravada teachings at various Councils and is included in the scope of this group's description on the homepage, the Buddha said.......Of course she may be quite wrong and deluded and is not claiming to be any kind of expert or authority or enlightened being';-). Herman, I think your post to AL, #36432 (and one or two earlier ones) were very compassionate and understanding. Also Phil's #36434. As RobM mentioned recently, I also feel very fortunate to read so many truly kind and caring messages from true friends every day and being right or wrong in any thread is not the issue as you hint at above. Metta, Sarah ======= 36702 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nipâta Hi Bill, Howard and Nori, --- Bill Saint-Onge wrote: > Hello All, > > It seems that I read somewhere that a part of the Thai ordination > proceedure was the bhikku-to-be confirming that both parents had given > permission for him to go forth. I'm not sure if that's from suttas, or > vinaya, or thai custom--or even that it's correct information :) .... S: One of the rules for ordination.It's in the Vinaya I'm sure. Howard, I agree with your other points, but I think that for a bhikkhu to continue supporting parents such as from money in trust would be a clear breach of the rules with regard to giving up all home-life requisites and ties. Permission and agreement of parents I see as being like a very great example of dana which I just mentioned to Antony with similar, but greater considerations for family members and so on. If it's not appropriate in this lifetime, it needn't been any hindrance at all to the development of satipatthana. Nori, thx for introducing some good threads. Hope you saw my response on the K.Milinda one. Metta, Sarah ? p.s Howard, you wrote a good comment on visible object to Phil's qu mark and also to Azita (and me) on anatta. Lots of agreement at the moment as you say. On vinnana, we're still way off in terms of agreement, however. You refer to it in D.O. as 'self-oriented knowing: the illusory sense of a subject encountering an object'. Seeing consciousness is an example of vinnana. Seeing just sees, it isn't self-oriented or illusory or anything else. Oops, wasn't intending to step into controversy here...like others, with the list being so busy, I'm trying to keep my toes dry, but accumulations rule yet again.... 36703 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner14-Introduction(k) HI Phil, (I'm behind with some reading, so ignore this if someone else has already replied) --- plnao wrote: > I've been wondering. How do cittas and cetasikas relate to Dhammapada > 1:1? > In the one translation > I have on hand at the moment (Acharya Buddharakkhita) it is "mind > precedes > all mental states. Mind > is their chief; they are all mind wrought. If with an impure mind a > person > speaks or acts suffering > follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox." .... S: The following was included in a longer quote on citta in a recent message I sent to Dan, taken from the commentary to Abhidammattha Sangaha or (T.A.) as Nina refers to it: “That which exists in the mind (cetasi) by occurring in dependence upon it is mentality (cetasika). For it is unable to take an object without consciousness; in the absence of consciousness there is no arising of any mentality at all. But consciousness does occur with an object in the absence of certain mentalities; so mentality is said to occur in dependence upon consciousness. Therefore the Blessed One has said: ‘Dhammas have mind as their forerunner.’ (Dhp 1) This refutes erroneous opinions such as that happiness, etc., are permanent and exist in the absence of consciousness. (cf Vism 511, ChXV1, 85) Alternatively mentality is that which is combined with consciousness.” ***** P: > When I looked at the pali for this, there were no words resembling > citta > or cetasika (I guess these terms > aren't used in the suttas?) but the above sounds similar to the idea of > citta being the king and cetasika being the...what was it...retinue? > followers? .... S: Citta, mano and vinnana have the same meanings, used in different contexts. ... > How can this "mind precedes all mental states" be understood in the > light > of > the book we are about to study? Thanks in advance. .... “That which exists in the mind (cetasi) by occurring in dependence upon it is mentality (cetasika). For it is unable to take an object without consciousness; in the absence of consciousness there is no arising of any mentality at all. " Like in the quote about understanding being the forerunner with regard to the other eightfold path factors, it means they cannot arise without it. Great Qus and comments and also thx for sharing 'Deeds of Merit' and all your helpful reflections on that. Metta, Sarah ======= 36704 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:10am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 068 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Anagami magga nana is not the highest nana. But at least this nana eradicate kama raga or sensuous craving and dosa or hatred. So anagams are like brahmas that is they do nat have any hatred or aversion. If they die in this life without progress, they will all be reborn in one of 5 suddhavasa catuttha jhana rupa brahma bhumis. If anagams do not have rupa jhanas and arupa jhanas they will not be able to do nirodha samapatti. But they can stay in anagami phala samapatti. When in anagami phala samapatti, there is no other object except nibbana. But unlike nirodha samapatti, there are still cittaja rupas and cittas which are anagami phala cittas and they accompanying cetasikas such as Noble Eightfold Path and other kusala cetasikas. This is totally different that there are anagami phala samapatti and nirodha samapatti. But those anagams who do not have rupavacara rupa jhanas and arupavacara arupa jhanas cannot stay in nirodha samapatti. When in nirodha samapatti, there is no citta at all. So there is no cetasika at all. There is no cittaja rupa at all. Nirodha samapatti may be said as saupadisea nibbana. Because as soon as 7 days lifespan of aharaja rupas is reached, anagami phala citta or arahatta phala citta has to arise once followed by bhavanga cittas and then back to life as we would see. Anagams are free of kama raga and free of dosa. They have eradicated 5 fetters or 5 samyojanas. Vicikiccha, ditthi, silabbattaparamasa, kama raga and dosa. As they do not have dosa, they will never cry, never depress, never be frightened and they are free of anxieties. But they still have to eradicate more subtle things like bhava ragaanusaya, manaanusaya, uddhaccaanusaya, and avijjaanusaya. Mahasatipatthana is ongoing. Nibbana has been seen thrice and kilesas have been cleansed layer by layer and they anagams now have very few and thin layer of kilesa. These anusaya akusala include maana or conceit. They have seen nibbana. They have seen nibbana for three times. They may think that they do not have conceit. What is right is that there is no vitikkama kilesa. But there are anusaya kilesa and they are hard to see. Even though they are calm and peaceful, they know that they have not done the job completely. That is the job of cleanseing all kilesa including all anusaya kilesa. Anusaya are potentials and they may at any time arise and appear as pariyutthana kilesa and even vitikkama kilesa. They all have to be eradicated if total extinguishment of all fire is the goal. To fulfil this goal of extinguishing all fire, anagams have to stay in mahasatipatthana and they have to discern dhamma at any moment. When it is the right time and all perfections have been fulfiled, then arahatta magga nana is going to arise soon. When there are all bodhipakkhiya dhammas and arahatta magga citta is just going to arise, the existing contemplation stops and bhavanga cittas follow. They again stop and there arise mano dvara avajjana citta. This citta contemplates on the arammana that is rupa or namma with marks of anicca, dukkha, anatta. It passes away and next arise parikamma kamavacara mahakusala citta arises taking the same object of mano dvara avajjana citta. It passes away and next upacara then anuloma followed by gotrabhu citta. Gotrabhu citta is kamavacara mahakusala citta. It is not lokuttara citta. But it is the last citta in non-arahats. But its object is not rupa or nama with marks of anicca, dukkha, anatta but its object is nibbana. This citta is lineage-changing citta. It leaves non- arahathood. Gotrabhu citta falls away and next arahatta magga citta arises seeing nibbana as its object. This is the highest nana and as soon as it arises, this arahatta magga nana eradicates all kilesa without any trace including anusaya and then the puggala becomes totally pure and he now deserves to receice all kinds of offerings from all sattas manussa, devas, brahmas. The job is done and there is nothing left to eradicate. This citta 'arahatta magga lokuttara kusala citta' is 85th citta of 89 cittas in total. Unlike other kusala cittas, magga kusala cittas immediate give rise to their effect without any interruption of any single moment. This means that as soon as arahatta magga citta passes away, there immediately arises 'arahatta phala lokuttara vipaka citta'. This citta is 89th citta of 89 cittas in total and it is the last citta and the highest of all cittas as it is the most pure and completely free of kilesa. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta Htoo Naing PS:Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36705 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:31am Subject: Fare the well, friend Herman ( was Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ???) Hi Herman > Thank you for your post. I sincerely hope you don't mind me replying to > your posts. I certainly have no problems with your posts. Well, you know to tell the truth I sometimes think some people can't be on the same page, so what's the point? I know that sounds narrow minded, but if you don't see Abhidhamma as the Buddha's teaching, and I do, what basis can we ever discuss things from? I don't know about you, but as far as I'm concerned most debates go around in circles, nothing is proven, neither side gives in, and the result (on my part at least - even just from reading them) is stimulation of restlessness and possibly other of the hindrances that AN V. 51 points to, the five obstacles that "overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment." In my case, awareness is very easily overwhelmed, I can assure you! And I am so easily distracted from what's really important. "Tripe" is not a word that I would use to describe a teaching that is deeply respected by millions of people in several Buddhist countries, no matter how I felt about it. Perhaps in this lifetime or another lifetime you'll feel differently, and perhaps I will. But while you see Abhidhamma the way you do, and I see it the way I do, there's not really much point in discussing Dhamma together, is there? Know what I mean? I don't say that with an ounce of hostility, believe me, I'm just being sensible. So I doubt that I'll be engaging in much discussion with you, but I look forward to reading your interesting posts. And using any irritation, if it arises, as objects of mindfulness! :) Carry on, Herman, in your quest for eradication of all false teachings! And fare thee well! Everyone has a different Dhamma direction, according to conditions. Judging from your posts here, I would say that yours is towards wholesome doubt and investigation as rightly urged in Kalama Sutta. (Perhaps this is just one aspect of your practice) My direction now is toward faith, even with an element of the blind variety. (I wonder if there is a sutta that praises blind faith in a way that balances the Kalama Sutta? I think there is a lot to be said for the motivating power of blind faith, of not needing to answer all one's doubts before believing a teaching, of letting the doubts go and going with the teaching. The Middle Way applies here, of course.) You would say ( I assume) that there is risk there, of falling deep into wrong view from which there is no escape. I can see the risk. Yes, Herman, I walk with eyes open through the Gates of Abhidhamma and kneel at the feet of my teachers, K Sujin and K. Nina. The supreme teacher, the Buddha, is there with them, as he is there with you on your Dhamma path. He is a most splendidly versatile teacher! Let us all venture on in dana, sila and bhavana! Metta, Phil 36706 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:52pm Subject: Void Blinking ...!!! BlankFriends: Non-Empty Void: Void, Void, they say! Void of What ? There is no permanent individuality ‘in here’. All is void continuous same personal identity! There is no stable identical substance ‘out there’. All is void of constant same enduring lasting entity. Both are Void of being in existence & in non-existence! There is only a flux of change, transience & (re)becoming.. Avoiding both these extremes of Eternalism & Annihilationism One should remain in the Middle sticking to Dependent Arising: When this is present, that appears. When this is absent, that does not appear. With the emergence of this, that too arises. With the ceasing of this, that too disappears. Just as there is a mirror and a reflection even so is: The apprehending & the apprehended; That which knows & that which is known; Just this twin Mentality & Materiality; Mere activity of Naming-&-Forming; Manifestations of Mind & Matter !!! Transient indeed is this Dual Dynamic Appearance, Since both elements is momentary, changing, discretely blinking in an ever passing serial sequence of arising & ceasing, how can such ever be said really to exist even for a moment? Even while perceived this moment is already gone, never to return again. This is all, this is the world, and such is all these phenomena: Passing Painful States, Not-Me-nor-I-nor-mine-nor-any-self... Whether internal or external, whether past, present or future, whether fine or gross, whether far or near, whether material or immaterial, whether physical or mental, all constructions are: Void of Lasting Permanence. Void of Enduring Pleasure. Void of Ego-or-Ownership. Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma http://uk.geocities.com/bhikkhu_samahita http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma Dhamma-Questions sent to my email are quite Welcome. 36707 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:36am Subject: Deeds of merit - generosity and cittas that arise from it Hello all More from "Deeds of Merit" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket available at http://www.zolag.co.uk/meri1.html As I mentioned this morning, I read a phrase from K Sujin ("one cannot develop panna if we don't see the value of dana and sila") that made me realize that I have an uderappreciation of dana. I tend to see self lurking subtly at the heart of acts of generosity. I want to consider dana more and hopefully get by this obstacle to right understanding. I initially posted a few passages from the first chapter in the book, on generosity, some months ago, but with your permission I will go back to the beginning of the book, which might mean some double posting from back then. Thanks. In the following exchange, S is K Sujin and W is Ms. Wandhana. *** S: Everybody can just do what he is able to according to his status and the circumstances he is in. Someone may be doing more than he is able to, whereas someone else may be lax in generosity. In both cases the result will be worry and distress. Are there certain things which you like very much? W. : I have a watch which I like very much because I use it to know what time it is. I look at it very often. S. : If you would give it away to someone else would you regret it very much? W. : I would regret it for a long time. S. : Each time we give something away we should know whether, as a consequence, few kusala cittas and many akusala cittas arise, or whether there are more kusala cittas arising than akusala cittas [1. If there are more akusala cittas arising than kusala cittas while we give something away, I think that it would be better to give something else which can be a condition for the arising of more kusala cittas than akusala cittas. People who do not have any understanding of cause and result in life may make a great effort to give, or, on the contrary, they may have no inclination to give at all. If they are ignorant of cause and result and if they have no understanding of the kusala cittas or akusala cittas which arise after the giving, they will either be overdoing generosity or, on the other hand, be negligent. In both cases there will be sorrow afterwards. (end quote) Ph: K Sujin says "each time we give something away we should know whether, as a consequence, few kusala cittas and many akusala cittas arise, or whether there are more kusala cittas arising than akusala cittas [1. If there are more akusala cittas arising than kusala cittas while we give something away, I think that it would be better to give something else which can be a condition for the arising of more kusala cittas than akusala cittas." The obvious question is when we are ignorant worldlings how on earth can we know whether there are kusala cittas or akusala arising? These days I tend to assume there is akusala at work, which might be just as wrong as assuming that there is kusala.. How do we know? As it happens, I found this in my little pocket notebook today : "Panna will know if there's clinging to self." (Sarah said it) In the same way, panna will know if there is kusala or akusala. But our panna is still weak, not developed. Thus again a reminder to patience. We will not know tomorrow whether there is kusala or akusala arising from an act of giving. My current policy is to assume there is both, coming and going in rapid succession. Panna will develop in a way that allows better understanding of what is going in behind an act of giving. BTW, I had an interesting reminder of how this happens this morning. I was just about to get in the shower, which I hoped to finish quickly so I could have some writing time before going to work. Naomi asked me to take out the unburnable garbage, though she was heading out and could do it easily enough. There was irritation, and then something more wholesome arose, a consideration of being generous with my time, to serve her. (I'd just read the above line about "if we do not know about dana...") I felt very calm all of a sudden, felt it was kusala. I got dressed again instead of getting in the shower and got the garbage together, got it out. But then she said there was more garbage in the next room, and the irritation was back. Soon enough the calm was back. I really felt these mental states were not-self, coming and going beyond my control, the wholesome ones conditioned by dhamma study, the unwholesome ones by accumulations rooted in dosa? It was interesting. Metta, Phil 36708 From: Dan D. Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:50am Subject: Re: Rob M: "...carries the label 'akusala'" Dear Rob M, Hello Rob M, We are going around in dizzying circles! I do enjoy the dance, but I may have to step back and do some more reading on vipaka. I wrote that it is not enough to say: "...the painful bodily feeling arose because an intrinsically undesireable rupa (the tactile object) arose together with body sensitivity (another rupa). This feeling arose as part of a vipaka citta which carries the label 'akusala'," because there is no explanation of any connection to past akusala dhamma as a cause of the pain. You responded with my original question: "Again, I ask why the past akusala javana citta has to have any bearing on the current object." The question arises from my readings. For example, Abhidhammtha sangaha lists seven kinds of akusalavipakacittani, one of which is "body-consciousness accompanied by pain" [I§8]. BB's explanations: "[These are] the seven types of consciousness that result from unwholesome kamma." [CMA, Guide to I§8] And, "All twelve unwholseome cittas can generate the seven unwholesome-resultant cittas anywhere in the sensuous world during the course of existence..." [CMA, Guide to V§27] And, "These [vipaka] constitute a third class of citta distinct from the former two, a class that comprises both the results of wholesome kamma and the results of unwholesome kamma." [CMA, Guide to I§3] Bad kamma can result in body-consciousness accompanied by pain; bad kamma can generate body-consciousness accompanied by pain; body- consciousness accompanied by pain is a result of unwholesome kamma. BB even goes so far as to say, "Whether on a given occasion one experiences an undesirable, a moderately desirable, or an extremely desirable object is governed by one's past kamma" [CMA, Guide to IV§17]. These are BB's formulations. I've seen similar formulations in Atthasalini, Dhammasangami, and elsewhere. So, we both ask, "why should past akusala javana citta have any bearing on the current object?" I think you were right when you pointed to conditions (NDSC). I thank you as I step back for some more reading. Metta, Dan 36709 From: Htoo Naing Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:29am Subject: Tracing the mind's track ( 01 ) I. THE MIND AS THE WHOLE There is no doubt that mind exists. This mind as conventionally known is mental body. Kaya or body means a combination of parts. That is parts of the whole. The whole is referred to as body or kaya. There are two kinds of body. Physical body and mental body. Physical body is readily perceivable and its existence is easy to understand. Another body that is mental body is not as conspicuous as that of physical body. This is especially true of other beings' mental body. But at least own mental body can be perceived through thoughtful consideration. The physical body as we all know is a combination of parts. The parts are head, neck, trunk, limbs, joints etc etc. In this there is ultimately no physical body but its existence is due to the construction in our mind that there is physical body as accepted by all. Like physical body, there is another body inside of us. It is mental body. Mental body is mind. It is a body because it is also a combination of parts. These parts are interesting to study even though they are difficult to understand. If each part is studied in detail, it would sound like theoretical study. So now we are going to study mental body as the whole. The mind that is the mind of us is actually continuously operating its various functions and there is a continuous flow of events in the mind. The flow is like the flow of a running river. Events are happening one after another, it is good to be analytical and to see each event in the mind. But in the earlier part of this discussion on ' Tracing the mind's track ' we will explore as a whole that is the mind as the whole. TRACING THE MIND'S TRACK BY HTOO NAING 36710 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:50am Subject: Re: Rob M: "...carries the label 'akusala'" Hi Dan (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > We are going around in dizzying circles! I do enjoy the dance, but I > may have to step back and do some more reading on vipaka. ===== I don't think that we are going around in circles, but we are in a holding pattern :-) You are looking for the relationship between the past kamma-creating citta and the vipaka cittas which arise in the sense door process. This question intrigued me and I started looking into more depth on asynchronous kamma condition as explained in the Patthana. I referred to Abhidhamma lecture notes prepared by U Silananda (the Abhidhamma scholar who prepared the charts found in BB's CMA). What I found really shocked me. It gave me a completely different perspective on kamma (see my post titled "Kamma" addressed to Nina / Rob K). I am still trying to digest the implications (and Nina is also looking into it) but it would APPEAR as though all the vipaka cittas throughout our existence are the result of the single kamma which propelled us into this existence. This is not without precedent. The eye-sensitivity rupa is produced by kamma. The eye-sensitivity rupa arises and falls away billions of times each second. Each new existence of eye-sensitivity rupa is created by kamma. But for a given existence, all the eye-sensitivity rupas produced come from the same kamma; the kamma that propelled us into this existence. For example, if our kamma is such that we are born congenitally blind, then this same kamma will ensure that we are blind for our entire life. The same holds true for the other kamma produced rupas. The billions of bhavanga cittas which arise and fall away each second are all vipaka cittas; they are all the result of a single kamma. The kamma that propelled us into this existence. Interestingly enough, this also settles a long-standing difference of opinion that I have had with Sarah (Sarah was quoting K. Sujin) in K. Sujin's favour! To be frank, I am not yet 100% comfortable with this new concept of kamma (I don't think Nina is either). For example, since the kamma that propelled us into this existence is kusala (this is a happy rebirth), it should not be possible for us to experience akusala vipaka cittas (i.e. no painful bodily feeling). In summary, I don't think that we are going around in circles at all. I think that we may be on the brink of a deeper understanding. I am eagerly awaiting Nina's (or Rob K's or other's) reply; I can visualize Nina pouring over the Patthana as we speak :-) I wish I weren't so busy these days. I would love to spend a week curled up with the Patthana. The Patthana is not light reading but it can be deeply rewarding (see my recent post on paticcasamuppada). ===== > > I wrote that it is not enough to say: "...the painful bodily feeling > arose because an intrinsically undesireable rupa (the tactile object) > arose together with body sensitivity (another rupa). This feeling > arose as part of a vipaka citta which carries the label 'akusala'," > because there is no explanation of any connection to past akusala > dhamma as a cause of the pain. > > You responded with my original question: "Again, I ask why the past > akusala javana citta has to have any bearing on the current object." > > The question arises from my readings. For example, Abhidhammtha > sangaha lists seven kinds of akusalavipakacittani, one of which > is "body-consciousness accompanied by pain" [I§8]. > > BB's explanations: > > "[These are] the seven types of consciousness that result from > unwholesome kamma." [CMA, Guide to I§8] ===== No problem with this... ===== > > And, "All twelve unwholseome cittas can generate the seven > unwholesome-resultant cittas anywhere in the sensuous world during > the course of existence..." [CMA, Guide to V§27] ===== Interesting enough, this is contrary to U Silananda's charts. U Silanda's charts indicate that only lobha-mula javana cittas create kamma. I suspect that this is one of the things that Nina is looking into. ===== > > And, "These [vipaka] constitute a third class of citta distinct from > the former two, a class that comprises both the results of wholesome > kamma and the results of unwholesome kamma." [CMA, Guide to I§3] ===== This one is okay... ===== > > Bad kamma can result in body-consciousness accompanied by pain; bad > kamma can generate body-consciousness accompanied by pain; body- > consciousness accompanied by pain is a result of unwholesome kamma. ===== Yes, this seems to make sense except that it does not match with my understanding of U Silananda's chart. ===== > > BB even goes so far as to say, "Whether on a given occasion one > experiences an undesirable, a moderately desirable, or an extremely > desirable object is governed by one's past kamma" [CMA, Guide to > IV§17]. ===== This is the crux of the matter! ===== > > These are BB's formulations. I've seen similar formulations in > Atthasalini, Dhammasangami, and elsewhere. ===== Any quotes from these texts would help the analysis process. ===== > > So, we both ask, "why should past akusala javana citta have any > bearing on the current object?" I think you were right when you > pointed to conditions (NDSC). I thank you as I step back for some > more reading. > ===== Should be interesting. Metta, Rob M :-) 36711 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > When considering the brahmaviharas, the characteristic etc, concerns only > one's own citta. We do not think of the effect Agreed. My only defence is "artistic license" as I tried to tie all the Brahmaviharas into one context. Reminds me of pre-Renaissance art where you would have multiple scenes from a biblical story presented simultaneously. I also agree that equanimity is critical. Metta, Rob M :-) 36712 From: Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nip... Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/21/04 6:49:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Howard, I agree with your other points, but I think that for a bhikkhu to > continue supporting parents such as from money in trust would be a clear > breach of the rules with regard to giving up all home-life requisites and > ties. > ======================== Well, you may be right with regard to a trust, because a "trust" would seem to still indicate ownership by the Bhikkhu. I suppose that the Bhikkhu would actually need to fully give the holdings away (to his parents and/or others). As far as giving up *all* ties is concerned, well, I doubt that is often observed in a complete fashion. The Buddha, himself, did not sever all ties. In fact, he specifically taught Dhamma to his mother, no? In a heaven realm? (Or so it is written.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36713 From: Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] To support or abandon your parents (child, relatives)? - Sutta-Nip... Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 9/21/04 6:49:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > On vinnana, we're still way off in terms of agreement, however. You refer > to it in D.O. as 'self-oriented knowing: the illusory sense of a subject > encountering an object'. Seeing consciousness is an example of vinnana. > Seeing just sees, it isn't self-oriented or illusory or anything else. > ======================= Our differences on this are mainly with regard to D.O., with respect to which I take 'vi~n~nana' to mean more than experiencing. I've explained why I do so in multiple posts, and I don't want to go through that litany any further, as I'm certain you and others also don't. But outside that context, I understand 'vi~n~nana' to indicate mere presence of experiential content, as I understand vedana to be mere affective taste, and cetana to be mere "impulse". All of the foregoing are impersonal experiential events not involving a knower. [I say "experiential" rather than "mental," because I don't mean to imply it being a mind-door matter.] I wouldn't quite put it as you do, however, in saying "Seeing just sees". I wouldn't put it that way, because the language suggests to me seeing being a thing which does something - seeing being an agent. I do not view it that way. Seeing is not a thing that does something. It is the doing. Instead of saying "Seeing just sees," I would be more inclined to say "Seeing is just seeing," or, better, to say nothing at all. ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36714 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. Hi Larry, op 21-09-2004 01:05 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I was wondering why sense consciousness is more apparent than javana > citta. There is only one sense consciousness but 7 javana cittas. N: When the javana cittas are accompanied by pleasant or unpleasant feeling they seem to be more apparent, aren't they? Often seeing seems to be more apparent, it is as if the world is light all the time. Remember Matt's post about this. Seeing arises time and again, but we have to be reminded that there is not one long moment of seeing. Cittas arise and fall away so rapidly, and after seeing has fallen away there are many other cittas including javana cittas. Seeing arises again and again, that is why it is apparent. When sati and pañña arise the characteristic of seeing can gradually be known: it experiences what is visible. When attachment arises its characteristic can also be known. It likes the object. When different charactreistics can be realized we do not wonder anymore what is more apparent. Whatever appears can be known as only nama or only rupa. L: Also, I don't see any difference between kusala and akusala visible > object. They both are accompanied by neutral feeling. N: I think you mean seeing-consciousness, not visible object. Visible object is rupa, it is neither kusala nor akusala. As to seeing-consciousness, this is not kusala or akusala, but it is kusala vipaaka and akusala vipaaka. It is meaningful that vipaaka is only one jaati, the jaati of vipaaka. It is conditioned by kamma already, and vipaaka itself cannot produce any result. L: Javana must be a reaction to accumulations. A reaction due to our accumulations. They are conditioned by way of natural strong dependence condition. The latent tendencies are so strong. They are latent but powerful. Before there is time to think about vipaka, the javana cittas arise already. Nina. 36715 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Hi Rob M, I like your questions and remarks, an opportunity to consider more. op 20-09-2004 16:04 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > K. Sujin says that only when all of the conditions recorded in the > Atthasalini (Vol I, Book I, Part III, Chapter V "Discourse on > Courses of Immoral Action" and Chapter VI "Discourse on Courses of > Moral Action") are present will kamma be created. K. Sujin says that > if all of these conditions are not met, then kamma is not created > (but accumulations are reinforced in all cases). N: We have to be careful here quoting K. Sujin. Especially as to the last sentence. There can be misunderstandings about what K. Sujin said. Let us look again. R: My understanding was that all volitional actions created kamma but > when the conditions recorded in the Atthasalini were present, the > kamma created was strong enough to condition the rebirth linking > citta. N: No doubt. I am inclined to say instead of: creating, : actions motivated by kamma or volition. I take cetanaa and kamma to be the same, as is stated in the suttas. When not all factors are present as recorded in the Atth., but the akusala is intense it could produce result in the course of life. I prefer not to specify, since these things are not specified in the teachings. Thus: I would not say: every akusala citta produces result. But rather: when the intensity of akusala is such that it can produce result, it can produce result depending on conditons. I tend to keep the intensity more general, because who knows? R: I checked some Suttas on kamma and they all seem to talk about > rebirth but never about kamma ripening during a lifetime. ... N: Yes, they do, take the story of MahaaMoggallana, as given by Htoo. The Vinaya can help us, it gives details about degrees of akusala. A monk pushed his father by accident and the father died. The Buddha asked him: did you have the intention to kill him? We can understand more the intensities of akusala. But why should we find out in detail what conditions which vipaaka at which moment? It is past already, and it is better to understand seeing, hearing or thinking now, akusala now. R:U Silananda's lecture notes went into more detail on > asynchronous kamma (Nanakkhanika-kamma)condition: N: Yes, many of these are in the Vis. studies and the Tiika. Also about the factors that make kusala kamma inferior. Exactly. > R: Here are some observations on this table: > > 1. Dosa-mula cittas and moha-mula cittas do not create kamma! N:Dosa-mula cittas can be very intense, they can motivate evil deeds. As to moha-mula cittas, yes they can. Even the type that is accompanied by uddhacca, restlessness can produce vipaaka in the course of life. We talked about this with A. Sujin. When akusala kamma is committed, say, by lobha, it can produce result as rebirth-consciousness. But in between committing a bad deed there are also moha-muula-cittas accompanied by restlessness and these also can produce result, but only in the course of life. The Tiika to Vis. XIV, 93: : R: 2. It would appear as though a past lobha-mula citta conditions > rebirth linking into a woeful state (bhavanga is akusala vipaka > upekkha santirana) and that it is only during a woeful existence > will the 7 akusala vipaka cittas (5 sense consciousness + receiving > + investigating) arise as a result of the same lobha-mula citta > which propelled one into that state! N: When I said to K. Sujin: the same kamma, she said: do not specify. This is more careful, we have to be very careful. The same for kusala kamma. But we find in the Sutta that the Buddha said that an act of generosity could produce many happy rebirths. He said not to despise generosity. But for each case, we cannot specify. R: It now > appears as though all these vipaka cittas throughout the entire > existence are the result of the same javana citta which propelled > one into this existence! N: See above. Why should we know which kamma? R: This is a completely new understanding of kamma and it appears as > though K. Sujin may have been correct! N: She did not say what you said above. She just gave a warning: do not specify. But if every akusala citta is also akusala kamma, that is going very far! When seeing now, then reading and thinking of the meaning of the letters, this is done with akusala citta when there is no dana, sila or bhavana. Defining meanings, the same. It is good to remember that we are thinking a lot and mostly with akusala citta. Thus, that akusala cittas are countless. But imagine if all such moments were akusala kamma bringing a result! Then we, laypeople, would have to live like the monks, and that is unnatural for us. No jokes, no laughing, no icecream (as Rob K said). What K. Sujin says about samalobha (normal lobha) and visamalobha (harmful lobha) makes sense to me. But I would not specify which is which exactly, where the borderline is. Nina. 36716 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Dear Ken H, op 21-09-2004 07:05 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > > I took this a step further and assumed that our concepts > of `experiencer' and `experiencing' must also have had their origins > in paramattha dhammas. I assumed citta had alternative ways of > cognising a nama - sometimes seeing it as the "expereincer" (the > seer, the hearer, the liker, the disliker, . . ) , and sometimes > seeing it simply as the experiencing (seeing, hearing, liking, > disliking). > > That was a wrong assumption. N: I do not mind words like experiencer or experiencing, it is the characteristic that matters. Is it nama or is it rupa. K: At the risk of confusing the issue, can I ask; is it different when > there is panna? When citta, for example, is directly understood as > nama (as distinct from rupa), is it still being experienced > as 'seeing' 'hearing' etc., or is it being experienced as, "the > dhamma that sees?" N: The dhammas that are objects of pañña do not change, they are just natural, ordinary seeing, hearing, etc. But understanding of them can grow. Seeing is known as dhamma, that means: as not my seeing which is a distorted interpretation of reality. We do not have to think, the dhamma that sees. Sati just attends to the characteristic of seeing when seeing appears, and then pañña can at that moment perform its task of that object. Some of the wrong view can wear away. More remarks are welcome, it is a good topic to consider. Nina. 36717 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Dear AL, op 20-09-2004 04:27 schreef Andrew Levin op andrewlevin@e...: >> All kinds of craving can only be >> eradicated by the arahat. He is liberated from the cycle. The links of >> ignorance and craving are cut off. > AL: I am going to concede this point, it does not seem reasonable that > practitioners will have *no* craving just by seeing the impermanence > and selflessness of things, perhaps it means something different? N: First wrong view has to go. Even when seeing it as anatta, there is still craving arising. It is so deeply accumulated. AL: But this leaves me in a tizzy here because I've read in MN 130, Divine > Messengers, that good people in this world, when warned by Divine > Messengers, do not dwell in negligence, but practise well the noble > dharma, and 'clinging they look upon with fear, for it produces birth > and death.' Doesn't this suggest that clinging (and under it, > craving) is dealt with at an earlier level, even before attainments, > or could the passage just be taken literally that they look upon > clinging with fear, until it is all eradicated? N: They see the danger of craving, since it keeps us in the cycle. Yes, even before any attainment. There are many levels of seeing the danger, also the intellectual level. But it can condition a sense of urgency not to be negligent. I like this sutta very much. A:... I am still dwelling in negligence, and > not one of those who practises well the noble dharma. .. Just a matter of when I can > establish myself in some stable meditation for appropriate > reflection(s) and practise. N: It helps to realize one's negligence as a conditioned dhamma. This is better than thinking: when *shall* I... AL: >> N: We cannot find out much so long as we do not even know the difference >> between nama and rupa, the first stage of tender insight. But in MN 42, the Buddha lists the ten courses of action > by body, speech, and mind, that lead to a favorable rebirth. One of > them is right view, which he described like this: > >> He has right view, undistorted vision, thus: 'There is what is given > and what is offered and what is sacrificed, and there is fruit and > ripening of good and bad kammas, and there is this world and the other > world and mother and father and spontaneously (born) beings, and good > and virtuous monks and brahmans that have themselves realized by > direct knowledge and declared this world and the other world.'< > > I don't think that any of the vipassana nanas are necessary to have > this view, it was to householders after all. Do you propose that we > can only come to this view, or at least a partial semblence of it, > through the practise of dharma and gaining insight-knowledges? N: Yes. And also householders can develop insight. Only when seeing dhamma as dhamma one can grasp what kamma and vipaaka are, and have right view about them as not self, not belonging to self. The Buddha spoke here in conventional language about kamma and vipaaka and right view about them. Take seeing now, that is vipaaka, but without the development of insight we do not have right understanding of it as a conditioned nama. What do we know about seeing without being aware of it right now? A: And I do think that the Buddha made it very clear when he said "right > view, undistorted vision," that it is plainly seeing reality, not > intellectual knowledge. N: Completely right. AL: I would assert > that some aspects of right view can be taken up just by staying > present and trying to acquire vision of what really is,... (snipped) ... So this right view is important, it's what motivates us > to do actions N: Correct. In the Vis study we saw examples how wrong view that there is no result of bad actions motivates a lot of akusala kamma. See Visuddhimagga XIV, 91: AL: I don't know how knowledge or vision of > spontaneously reappearing beings can come about. N: These are results of kusala kamma in the form of birth as a deva. Also rebirth in Hell is spontaneous. But the point is to consider this present moment, the only way to have right view. Then we can read the suttas with more understanding. The sutta you quoted above points to: right understanding of kamma and vipaka. We should not be confused as to details about father and mother, this is a way of explaining the truth of kamma and vipaka by way of conventional language. AL: >> A: But how am I to know which wrong view it >>> is, ie an eternal self wrong view (further, does this eternal self >>> wrong view hold that the body is a self, or does it apply to all >>> phenomenon?), the annihilation self view, and wrong view about kamma >>> and vipaka, thinking purification can come about through rites and >>> rituals. Especially the last one, I wouldnt be able to recognize that >>> such a wrong view was present in my mind. >> N: That is very good. It helps to know that we are inclined to > manipulate >> sati so long as we are not sotapannas. It also helps to know that > this is >> not the way. > > I can't help but feel you didn't answer the question. N: My remark pertains to purification that can come about through rites and rituals.. If this is present the other wrong views will not be eradicated, no hope. We do not have to try to know all kinds of wrong view. A: I do need to > recognize wrong views as they are present in my mind, don't I? ...Why else did you list them in your book Abhidharma in Daily life if not so we can recognize them? N: It is good to know that there are many kinds of wrong views and that the belief in self conditions them. But we cannot recognize each one of them, because pañña should be very keen. Stages of insight again! AL: I've > been reading from a commentary to the Maha-Satipatthana sutta, I accept that sati can come and go when conditions > are right, but I think, for instance, that I can be intend to be more > mindful of the posture of my body and its smaller movements and > positionings, or I can meditate in a fashion where I can be heedful of > the qualities of my mind. Please let me know what you guys view on > this is so we can get some reconciliation going. > Well then , What are the conditions . Can we cultivate them? N: Study of the Dhamma so that we have at least intellectual correct understanding, and also all kinds of kusala, so that we think less of self. If you intend to meditate you could ask yourself: is there clinging to result? >> N: There are two kinds of meditation or bhaavana: samatha and vipassana. >> Only through vipassana wrong view of self can be eradicated. > AL: Right but this is only one type of wrong view. Please see above for > the others. N: These are all connected with the wrong view of self. AL: >> When you speak words of appreciation to your parents with kusala > citta, it >> is a form of dana. At that moment the citta knows the benefit of kusala. >> That is a level of straightening one's views. > AL: I will give you this. I was kind to my parents earlier today and I > think it gave me the benefit of seeing my views that are in there, > right, wrong, or whatever they are! Generosity indeed. Perhaps we > can talk about that in another thread. N: I appreciate this and I am really glad. Generosity, very important to talk about this. See what Phil wrote: Now you have more understanding than before of the citta, that it is citta that is kind. This is the way to learn that there is no owner of kusala, that it depends on the citta that arises because of conditions. Citta is a dhamma. Evenso in the case of the brahmavihaaras, we can understand *our own* (not really ours) citta, not someone else's citta. A: But didn't you say in ADL that when we know the underlying tendencies > of dosa or lobha when we get engaged in frivolous talk we can lessen > them? Or something to that effect? Are you getting this? Why do I > feel like I'm talking to a machine? N: It is more like this: we know that akusala like frivolous talk is conditioned by past accumulations, by the latent tendencies that are accumulated. But sure, they can be weakened by the development of right understanding together with all kinds of kusala. If they are not weakened, how could lokuttara pannñaa eradicate them completely. It is a process going on for countless aeons. As Azita says: patience, courage and good cheer, Nina. 36718 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Process of cittas. Hi Rob M, See Path of Discrimination under behaviour, as discussed before. The Expositor gives all the details, not merely brief allusions. So does the Vis. And as you say, in the Patthana under contiguity condition. Nina. op 21-09-2004 02:50 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > I note that the Buddha never discussed the details of the citta > process; there are brief allusions to the process in the Patthana > and in Buddhaghosa's works, but the details were not laid out until > about 1500 years after the Buddha's parinibbana in the > Abhidhammatthasangaha. 36719 From: jwromeijn Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:05am Subject: Fare the well, friend Herman ( was Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ???) Hallo Phil, Herman and all Phil: > Well, you know to tell the truth I sometimes think some people can't be on > the same page, so what's the point? I know that sounds narrow minded, > but if you don't see Abhidhamma as the Buddha's teaching, and I do, > what basis can we ever discuss things from? I don't know about you, but > as far as I'm concerned most debates go around in circles, nothing is > proven, neither side gives in, Joop: Of course you can decide how to spend your energy, Phil. But perhaps the discussion can be made more general: there are two group active in this DSG:  those who know the whole Tipitaka are the words of the Buddha and that the Commentaries are part of the Canon: they ask and give information out of this frame of reference  those who (also, in their own eyes) are Theravadins but think the Pali Canon is the result of a historical process and that some texts are more genuine than other ones, that some texts has to be taken literally and other can be taken metaphorically. The discussion between Sarah and Dighanakha about fundamentalism, as explained by him in # 36543, is another example. Of course these groups are not homogenous, is is a construct. The question is: can the 'members' is these two groups discuss with each other and how, without boring each other and without going in circles? If the answer is yes, there must be some rules (and of course: respect) The reaction on this message will be: what rules do you propose. But first I'm curious if the answer is yes. To be honest: I doubt, as someone who places himself in the second group and is more interested in the future than in the past of Theravada. With metta, Joop 36720 From: jwromeijn Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: flippin off the moon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Joop > > --- jwromeijn wrote: > ... > > > There is no lack of writings by erudite scholars. But by what > > > standard do you measure the views expressed by these other > > > writers? Do you trust your own judgment in the matter? > > Joop: Yes, and sometime with the help of scolars I trust, for example > > David Kalupahana and Stephen Batchelor > > Yes but my question is, how can one be sure that one's preference for a > particular writer (and I'd like to keep this non-personal, it applies to > whoever) is not just a reflection of a shared wrong view of the teachings? > > ... > > Joop: (1) To nothing clinging is good, also not to realities > > I agree with this. > > > (2) The (paramattha) dhammas are realities, that is: they are > > not trancendental (perhaps 'Nibbana' is: we don't know) And because > > the dhammas are realities in the Abhidhamma we have to be critical on > > comments who make things sibtle and complex. > > Sorry Joop, but I haven't managed to catch your point here. Would you > mind explaining further? Thanks. > > Jon Hallo Jon On the second question: I was too short. I connected 'realities' with 'realism' as a kind of philosophy as opposite of transcendentalistic philosophies (Idealism, metaphysics). And I stated that early buddhism - the oldest parts of the Tipitaka - is in this philosophical way realism (source: the Kalupahana I mentioned). On the first question: we never know that, of no text at all, not of the Pali canon and not of other buddhist or buddhological texts. All I have is my intuition, my intelligence and my experience (for example for meditation) But in general I'm not sure if this kind of discussions are fruitfoll, cf my post # 36719 Metta Joop 36721 From: bluescatplayah Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:12pm Subject: Anger and craving Hello, all, I have not been able to check in latlely due to a very hectic school schedule and various personal occurrances. I trust you are all well. A question has arisen in my practice and study which I hope can be answered. Does anger arise from craving exclusively, or does anger arise, in some instances, from stimuli in which craving is not a factor? It has become apparant, during deep examination, that if anger arises in my own mind that there is always a root cause of either craving or aversion. Aversion, it seems, is but craving in different clothing, for if 'I' crave this, but do not crave that, 'I' crave no contact with that. So the question arises: is anger always born of craving, or are there circumstances in which craving plays no part? Please forward any answers deemed appropriate. With metta Duncan 36722 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:18pm Subject: Fare the well, friend Herman ( was Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ???) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > > > (I wonder if there is a sutta that praises blind faith in a way that > balances the Kalama Sutta? I think there is a lot to be said for the > motivating power of blind faith, of not needing to answer all one's doubts > before believing a teaching, of letting the doubts go and going with the > teaching. The Middle Way applies here, of course.) > > +++++++++++++++ Dear Phillip, You are like me I think. As soon as I heard Abhidhamma it all made sense, but I find it hard to communciate about it to others. I think the Buddha never praised blind faith but he taught conditions so that those who want to know gain confidence. In the Gotamaka sutta: "Monks, I proclaim Dhamma with full comprehension, not without full comprehension. I proclaim Dhamma with causal connexions, not without. I proclaim Dhamma accompanied by wonders, not without wonders. Since I do so there is good reason why I should admonish, there is good reason why I should instruct. Well may ye be glad. Well may ye be satisfied. Well may ye be pleased at the thought: Perfectly enlightened is the Exalted One. Well taught by the Exalted One is Dhamma. Well conducted is the Order.' So spake the Exalted One. And while this explanation was being given, the ten-thousand fold world-system quaked." Robertk 36723 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:45pm Subject: Re: Rob M: "...carries the label 'akusala'" --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > It gave me a completely different > perspective on kamma (see my post titled "Kamma" addressed to Nina / > Rob K). I am still trying to digest the implications (and Nina is > also looking into it) but it would APPEAR as though all the vipaka > cittas throughout our existence are the result of the single kamma > which propelled us into this existence. > > +++++++++ Dear RobM, Lucky I decided to look at this post, did you address another to me? BTW The vipakas that occur in one existence are not all conditioned by the kamma that caused patisandhi citta (although some are). In this human plane we have a fortunate birth caused by kusala kamma: thus it is impossible that the undesirable vipaka that we occasionally/often experience is caused by that kamma. RobertK 36724 From: ericlonline Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:48pm Subject: Fare the well, friend Herman ( was Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ???) Hey Phil, P> My direction now is toward faith, even with an element of the blind variety. (I wonder if there is a sutta that praises blind faith in a way that balances the Kalama Sutta? I think there is a lot to be said for the motivating power of blind faith, of not needing to answer all one's doubts before believing a teaching, of letting the doubts go and going with the teaching. The Middle Way applies here, of course.) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel277.html This sutta is not exactly blind as it shows where one has come from and where faith leads. But then you don't have complete blind faith as you are studying the Abhidhamma and you talk of a Middle Way. The Middle Way between scepticism and credulity (blind faith). PEACE E 36725 From: ericlonline Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 3:59pm Subject: Theory and Practice - Eric Re: Anapanasati/ Sukin Hey Sukin, E> Sukin, please, I am saying it is both. Study and > practice. I am not saying that contemplation is > not needed or secondary for that matter. But when > push comes to shove, you are going to have to leave > all of this theorizing behind. Either you will > intend to do it via meditation or death will force you! Sukin: I know this, but I got carried away trying to prove my point. But still, I think we may have a different understanding as to what `study' as in pariyatti is, and what it means to `practice', which in dhamma is patipatti. I will go a bit into this later on in this post. Great! ----------------------------------------------------- > S: The Bodhisatta may be a great inspiration, but what could I learn from him about getting out of samsara? I guess it depends more on you then on them but isn't that already the case? ----------------------------------------------------- > S> People may be able to enter Samadhi in an instant and experience > fascinating states of mind. Some might talk with seemingly great > authority about levels of consciousness and create elaborate > theories about human experience and nature of reality. For me the > test as to whether that person is really wise is in how much > importance he gives to presently arising realities. > > E: This is for each to know and no descriptive signifier > will allow another to realize the present arising realities no > matter how much the benevolent intent. Sukin: One person cannot make another enlightened. But if the conditions are there, he will speak with wisdom and if his audience has the right accumulations, wisdom can arise in him too. But if someone has never heard the Dhamma (except for Buddhas), then this kind of wisdom can never arise. You see we are in a quandary here. What about when the Buddha was not a Buddha? S> It *must* start with a conceptual description; this happened even in the case of Sariputta. And if a person does understand dhamma, lack of words to describe the experience is no excuse. Well, I would not say *must*. Maybe for you but maybe another sense could enlighten another. ------------------------------------------- > S> The Four Noble Truths, if a teaching is consistent with this, then > it would qualify as Right View, otherwise not. Which is another way > of saying that only the Buddha and his followers were/can be > enlightened. > > E: I dont agree. The 4NT's were discovered by the Buddha > not invented by him. Sukin: We are talking about the way things are, which is independent of anyone's observation and opinion. So yes the Buddha did not invent the 4NT. But I hesitate to say that he discovered it, since this makes it too easy and does give an impression that the 4NT is out there to be discovered. Maybe you like the word 'uncover' better. Nonetheless, if he did not invent it then he found it. S> But only very great `insight' can glimpse the 4NT via developed understanding of the conditioned nature of realities, particularly a firm understanding of anatta. Do you know anyone else who teaches anatta? Krishnamurti, Ramana used it along with (Self). Jed Mckenna uses it and I am sure others. ------------------------------------------------------- > S> It seems odd that people, including monks, have meditated (in some > cases on the breath) for 20, 30 or 40 years and all they can talk > about at the end of it, is `calm', `happiness', `peace' and so on. > And when they advice anyone on `understanding' dhamma, they point to the `formal practice'. > E: Maybe they are just pointing you in a direction > that they know you will eventually realize the present > arisen dhammas. What was the Buddha doing on the eve > of his Enlightenment? He was doing a formal practice > of meditation which he taught as Anapanasati. Sukin: `Formal', according to whom? Did someone teach him this? He discovered it and formally taught it. Formal as in methodical. What is with the aversion to the word 'formal'? Do you informally eat or brush your teeth? One day eat with a shovel and the next with a spoon? One day brush your teeth with a tooth brush and the next a hair brush? S> What he became enlightened to was what *all* practices did not lead him to. When other teachers `point' you to a direction, why is it away from the moment? None of my meditation teachers taught in this way so I dont quite know who you are referring to. S> And "who" does "what"?! If there is not understanding of what is going on, is this the `cause' leading to the correct `result'? Is this encouraging of blind faith and the following of rites and rituals? Dont quite understand you here. The reference to rites and rituals in the suttas is to the belief that slaughtering live stock would get you to heaven and not about samadhi bhavana in the 'formal' systematic way of regarding sense impressions i.e. 4 foundations of mindfulness. ----------------------------------------------------- >E: Sukin, please, I am saying it is both. Study and > practice. I am not saying that contemplation is > not needed or secondary for that matter. But when > push comes to shove, you are going to have to leave > all of this theorizing behind. Either you will > intend to do it via meditation or death will force you! Sukin; Yes theorizing is an annoying habit, but I don't believe in it. But there is no control over what will arise as long as conditions for wrong view and other akusala are still present. The concept of `meditation' as I see it can in fact be a product of such theorizing. Like any other subject. S> When there is any panna arising in the moment, there is no idea about what to "do", because panna, unlike lobha, detaches. I am with you. S> Pariyatti as often expressed here, is panna, though of the very basic level. It is the correct understanding in terms of conceptual description, of what is happening NOW. But then all you 'know' is the conceptual Matrix of NOW and not "NOW". S> To know that what one understands about the moment is `conceptual' and that it is conditioned is already panna at work. Sure ,work like a description of work and not the 'real' work. That has not started yet. We are kind of in school still. We have not even looked in the 'want ads' yet (pun intended). :-) S> To want something more is the work of `lobha' or else a misunderstanding of the Teachings. So you feel there are no wholesome aspirations? S> Also not knowing that pariyatti is *not* about words but a level of understanding, one may reason that one must leave all this behind and directly `look', meditate. Above you say it is words and now you say it is not? So which is it? S> But this is wrong understanding of the moment, conceptually, and instead believing in a concept of `doing something', where a `self' is projected into a future state. Yep, that is how it starts. Then maybe you find you are not in Kansas anymore (reference to the Wizard of Oz). S> One starts with self view and ends up feeding it further with any consequent illusion of result. That is one possiblility. But there is much to realize if you are honest at this point and you see this in action and not merely think this thru. You realize, 'holy shit, I have been deluding myself my whole life!'. This is a big turning point if 'felt' in ones bones or ones guts. There can be great joy here too. Because identity view is being dismantled and many burdens related to 'self' are being dropped. Many fears and doubts can fall away at this time. S> No one can decide to leave any `theory' behind. Practice as in patipatti, just knows a reality, and if that be `thinking', then naturally there is detachment. So you say. But I feel there is right aspiration. S> But the same applies to any reality, even jhana cittas must be seen with satipatthana. Indeed, but one must see them not from the veil of conceptualization but thru direct perception. One must first cultivate the jhanas and then see this, otherwise all this is just more thought and talk. You know, 'the commentators said...blah, blah, blah'. S> I think the idea that one can and must decide to do away with theory, is a misunderstanding not only of the significance of the relationship between pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha, but also from *not* knowing the moment and having instead only a wrong view of it. When you are ready, via death or your own Right Intentions you will see it is the Right thing to do. It is scary because that is all we know but a new type of 'food' will eventually feed the mind or spirit. You will eat kilesa for breakfast lunch and dinner till there are none left! S> Regarding urgency at the time of death, I don't know what I will do, maybe out of `fear' I might think about meditation. :-( But this would be due to self-attachment and lack of confidence. What was the Buddha doing on the eve of his enlightenment? What was he doing when he died? -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------ But I agree with you that what is described in the books is not important as compared to the experience of the realities which any Right book will refer to. ;-) You must be married to a librarian! ------------------------------------------------- > S> You seem to object to `theory', but do you really believe we can > get away from any theory? I think we start with some kind of > conclusion, dwell on them and reinforce them all the time. And if we > have had any experiences and do not check if this is consistent with > the Buddha's teachings, then I believe that it becomes increasingly > hard to get on the right track. E> Again, I am not objecting to theory! But it just > has lost its taste in my mouth. I want the fruit > and no longer pale anemic descriptions of it! Sukin: I think you need to reexamine your understanding of what pariyatti means. It is a possibilty. PEACE E 36726 From: Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. Hi Nina, So, consciousness of red is kamma result but red is not. Also, mind door consciousness of red is not kamma result. What about a gift? A gift is not kamma result and consciousness of a gift is not kamma result. If someone gives you a dollar, only the color etc. of the dollar is kamma result, the value is not and the concept "gift" is not. It seems like there must be more to kamma than citta process. What else is there (that creates kamma) besides citta process? Is this something else ultimately real? Is there such a phenomenon as conventional/nonultimately-real kamma? Is it governed by conditionality? Also, don't you think it is a little hedonistic to say pleasant bodily feeling is always the result of kusala kamma and unpleasant bodily feeling is always the result of akusala kamma? Larry 36727 From: plnao Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of merit - generosity and cittas that arise from it Hello all Just reread this passage from the previous post in this thread and got it a little better. S "each time we give something away we should know whether, as a consequence, few kusala cittas and many akusala cittas arise, or whether there are more kusala cittas arising than akusala cittas K.Sujin is reminding us here that there are always kusala and akusala cittas arising behind an act. The only question is where the preponderance is. The first time I read it I misunderstood it to mean that we should know whether there is kusala or akusala, as thought it would be one or the other. Knowing that would be beyond me now, and it's not the way it works anyways, except in one unimaginably small moment that is already gone. Preponderance of kusala and akusala is a little easier to understand. Are there few kusala cittas and many akusala or more kusala than akusala? Since we know akusala outnumbers kusala, for worldlings, it might be right to start by assuming the former, but stay open to the possibility of the latter, and grateful to the Buddha who teaches the way to make that possibilty a reality. Maybe we should see the ethical implications of an act as a momentary balance sheet rather than one citta that can be pinpointed? Metta, Phil 36728 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:39pm Subject: RE: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Nina, You wrote: =========== As to the expression wrong view, this refers to the wrong view of annihilation view and so on. N: This includes the belief that after death there will not be rebirth. ========== H > I am assured that after death there will be rebirth. In your book I have wrong view. What should I do about that? Kind Regards Herman 36729 From: Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anger and craving Hi Duncan, D: "Hello all, I have not been able to check in lately due to a very hectic school schedule and various personal occurrences. I trust you are all well. A question has arisen in my practice and study which I hope can be answered. Does anger arise from craving exclusively, or does anger arise, in some instances, from stimuli in which craving is not a factor? L: In one sense anger can be conditioned by anything. In another sense craving conditions everything in our life. D: "It has become apparent, during deep examination, that if anger arises in my own mind that there is always a root cause of either craving or aversion. Aversion, it seems, is but craving in different clothing, for if 'I' crave this, but do not crave that, 'I' crave no contact with that." L: Actually anger is a manifestation of aversion (dosa) and technically speaking there is no "I" in aversion. Self view and "I" accompany craving (lobha). IMO dukkha is a manifestation of aversion, so the first two noble truths relate directly to craving and aversion and their pervasiveness. I would say desiring to not do etc. is different from aversion. D: "So the question arises: is anger always born of craving, or are there circumstances in which craving plays no part? Please forward any answers deemed appropriate. With metta Duncan" Larry 36730 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 4:52pm Subject: RE: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Nina, That should have had a no in it, like so : I am assured that after death there will be no rebirth. In your book I have wrong view. What should I do about that? You wrote: =========== As to the expression wrong view, this refers to the wrong view of annihilation view and so on. N: This includes the belief that after death there will not be rebirth. ========== H > I am assured that after death there will be rebirth. In your book I have wrong view. What should I do about that? Kind Regards Herman 36731 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:36pm Subject: RE: Fare the well, friend Herman ( was Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ???) Hi Joop, Phil, and all, Thanks for this post. It is very clear and precise, and you have identified the issues well. Some more comments below. =========== Joop: Of course you can decide how to spend your energy, Phil. But perhaps the discussion can be made more general: there are two group active in this DSG:  those who know the whole Tipitaka are the words of the Buddha and that the Commentaries are part of the Canon: they ask and give information out of this frame of reference  those who (also, in their own eyes) are Theravadins but think the Pali Canon is the result of a historical process and that some texts are more genuine than other ones, that some texts has to be taken literally and other can be taken metaphorically. The discussion between Sarah and Dighanakha about fundamentalism, as explained by him in # 36543, is another example. Of course these groups are not homogenous, is is a construct. The question is: can the 'members' is these two groups discuss with each other and how, without boring each other and without going in circles? If the answer is yes, there must be some rules (and of course: respect) The reaction on this message will be: what rules do you propose. But first I'm curious if the answer is yes. To be honest: I doubt, as someone who places himself in the second group and is more interested in the future than in the past of Theravada. ========== Like you, I doubt that there will ever be progress in communication between the camps you have identified. I think as long as there is respect between the posters, and no implicit obligation to reply to any post, then we can muddle along. It doesn't concern me if people disagree with my posts, or ignore my posts, or write posts to say they don't like my posts or are going to ignore my posts. As long as I can think scientifically, I will apply scientific standards, and as long as there are post written in terms of higher authority or using transcendental or metaphysical concepts, I will attempt to get rephrasings so I can at least test for truth or reality. Kind Regards Herman 36732 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:57pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Theory and Practice - Eric Re: Anapanasati/ Sukin Hi Sukin, > > E: I dont agree. The 4NT's were discovered by the Buddha > not invented by him. Sukin: We are talking about the way things are, which is independent of anyone's observation and opinion. So yes the Buddha did not invent the 4NT. But I hesitate to say that he discovered it, since this makes it too easy and does give an impression that the 4NT is out there to be discovered. But only very great `insight' can glimpse the 4NT via developed understanding of the conditioned nature of realities, particularly a firm understanding of anatta. Do you know anyone else who teaches anatta? ------------------------------------------------------- H > There are many people who understand that there is no self at the helm of all that takes place. David Hume, for one, wrote about this at length. It is not a slight on the Buddha to suggest that others come to similar realizations as him, independently. It would be, however, very silly to institute a priesthood to promote the worship of and taking refuge in David Hume. Or to take out a trade-mark on his insights. One of the realities to be discovered is that humans are a group-animal, and that many people can just not function without authority figures, the leaders of the pack. Being an island unto yourself and knowing the Dhamma for yourself is just not an attractive proposition for most. For these people the preference is to be told what to think and what to do, and the idea that insight is transcendental and unattainable for themselves is very comforting. Kind Regards Herman 36733 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Hi Nina / Rob K / Sarah / Dan / Herman / Larry (and others...) For those of you who have not been following this thread, it started with my discussion with Dan & Herman. This prompted me to explore asynchronous kamma condition in more detail and I was surprised by what I found (see my post 26715). Nina replied to my post in her post 36715 and now this is my reply to Nina. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Rob M, > I like your questions and remarks, an opportunity to consider more. > op 20-09-2004 16:04 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > K. Sujin says that only when all of the conditions recorded in the > > Atthasalini (Vol I, Book I, Part III, Chapter V "Discourse on > > Courses of Immoral Action" and Chapter VI "Discourse on Courses of > > Moral Action") are present will kamma be created. K. Sujin says that > > if all of these conditions are not met, then kamma is not created > > (but accumulations are reinforced in all cases). > N: We have to be careful here quoting K. Sujin. Especially as to the last > sentence. There can be misunderstandings about what K. Sujin said. Let us > look again. ===== Sarah and I have gone over this point a couple of times (I have not discussed this with K. Sujin directly). I may have misunderstood Sarah. Sarah, please help me out here. ===== > R: My understanding was that all volitional actions created kamma but > > when the conditions recorded in the Atthasalini were present, the > > kamma created was strong enough to condition the rebirth linking > > citta. > N: No doubt. I am inclined to say instead of: creating, : actions motivated > by kamma or volition. I take cetanaa and kamma to be the same, as is stated > in the suttas. > When not all factors are present as recorded in the Atth., but the akusala > is intense it could produce result in the course of life. ===== I think that we are in agreement here but my interpretation of Sarah's interpretation of K. Sujin's comments differs from this. Again, I ask Sarah to help me understand better. ===== > I prefer not to specify, since these things are not specified in the > teachings. Thus: I would not say: every akusala citta produces result. But > rather: when the intensity of akusala is such that it can produce result, it > can produce result depending on conditons. I tend to keep the intensity more > general, because who knows? ===== Even though I tend to generalize :-), I would agree that it is wrong to say that every akusala citta produces a result. I like the way that you positioned this. ===== > R: I checked some Suttas on kamma and they all seem to talk about > > rebirth but never about kamma ripening during a lifetime. ... > N: Yes, they do, take the story of MahaaMoggallana, as given by Htoo. The > Vinaya can help us, it gives details about degrees of akusala. A monk pushed > his father by accident and the father died. The Buddha asked him: did you > have the intention to kill him? We can understand more the intensities of > akusala. But why should we find out in detail what conditions which vipaaka > at which moment? It is past already, and it is better to understand seeing, > hearing or thinking now, akusala now. ===== I missed Htoo's story about MahaMoggallana. I agree that there are examples of intensities of cetana. I guess what I am looking for is a Sutta where the Buddha said that a specific incident during an existence (i.e. not a rebirth) was a result of kamma (as distinct from accumulations). ===== > R:U Silananda's lecture notes went into more detail on > > asynchronous kamma (Nanakkhanika-kamma)condition: > N: Yes, many of these are in the Vis. studies and the Tiika. > Also about the factors that make kusala kamma inferior. Exactly. > > > R: Here are some observations on this table: > > > > 1. Dosa-mula cittas and moha-mula cittas do not create kamma! > N:Dosa-mula cittas can be very intense, they can motivate evil deeds. As to > moha-mula cittas, yes they can. Even the type that is accompanied by > uddhacca, restlessness can produce vipaaka in the course of life. We talked > about this with A. Sujin. When akusala kamma is committed, say, by lobha, it > can produce result as rebirth-consciousness. But in between committing a bad > deed there are also moha-muula-cittas accompanied by restlessness and these > also can produce result, but only in the course of life. > The Tiika to Vis. XIV, 93: : twelve kinds of akusala cittas also take any object among the six objects > and arise immediately after the mind-consciousness-element that is the > rootless kiriyacitta accompanied by indifferent feeling, > and that they arise committing kamma, performing deeds through the three > doors of body etc. as the occasion presents itself, such as the course of > action that is killing and so on. > > N: The twelve types of akusala cittas arise after the mind-door > adverting-consciousness which is a rootless kiriyacitta (the > mind-consciousness-element, mano-vinnñaa.na-dhaatu). > They can perform kamma through the three doors of body, speech and mind. > > Tiika: > Excluding here the consciousness rooted in ignorance and accompanied by > restlessness, the other eleven types of unwholesome consciousness produce > rebirth-consciousness in the four unhappy planes and they produce also > result in the course of life in a happy plane. > However, consciousness rooted in ignorance and accompanied by restlessness > produces result only in the course of life.> ===== U Silananda's chart seems to indicate that only cetana in lobha-mula cittas can condition results according to asynchronous kamma condition. You have quoted Tiikas indicating that this is incorrect. U Narada's Guide to Conditional Relations, Chapter IV, page 197 - 205, "Detailed Explanation of Asynchronous Kamma" has a lot of detail on this. I haven't read it all yet, but glancing at the chart on page 198, I see that: - 11 faulty volitions exclusive of restlessness can cause rebirth in the four lower planes - 12 faulty volitions can arise during life in the sensous or the fine material spheres It would appear that U Narada's presentation agrees with the Tiika and contradicts U Silananda's chart. On the other hand, I hesitate to jump to the conclusion that U Silananda was wrong because: - This is not a simple typo, this is a very different interpretation of kamma - U Silananda is a respected authority on Abhidhamma and compiled these notes carefully (I have a list of erratta compiled later; they are primarily typos) The position that I am going to take at this point is that I have misunderstood U Silananda's chart. Somebody recently passed me a complete set of Abhidhamma lectures (I think it is about 80 hours in MP3 format) by U Silananda. I will try to find the talk where he discusses asynchronous kamma condition. ===== > > R: 2. It would appear as though a past lobha-mula citta conditions > > rebirth linking into a woeful state (bhavanga is akusala vipaka > > upekkha santirana) and that it is only during a woeful existence > > will the 7 akusala vipaka cittas (5 sense consciousness + receiving > > + investigating) arise as a result of the same lobha-mula citta > > which propelled one into that state! > N: When I said to K. Sujin: the same kamma, she said: do not specify. > This is more careful, we have to be very careful. The same for kusala kamma. > But we find in the Sutta that the Buddha said that an act of generosity > could produce many happy rebirths. He said not to despise generosity. But > for each case, we cannot specify. ===== This all started with a discussion with Dan and Herman of the sense door citta process. We used the example of a tree falling on a leg causing pain. I said the following: - the tree fell due to many natural conditions, but kamma was not involved - there was a tactile object (a rupa) as part of "tree" and body sensitivity (another rupa) as part of "leg" together and this was a condition for body consciousness citta to arise - because the nature of the rupa was inherently undesireable, the body consciousness which arose is of the "akusala vipaka" type and there was unpleasant bodily feeling - this was followed by receiving citta and investigating citta, both of these also carrying the label "akusala vipaka" (and both with neutral mental feeling) The question that Dan (and I) are stuck on is this: The body sensitivity citta, the receiving citta and the investigating citta are all "vipaka"; this means that they are the result of some past citta. Are these three vipaka cittas similar to the bhavanaga cittas (i.e. all the resultant of the kamma which conditioned rebirth) or are these three vipaka cittas the result of some past action not associated with rebirth. If these three cittas are the result of some past action not associated with rebirth, what is the nature of the relationship? When the tree fell on the leg: - the arising of the tangible object rupa ("the tree") has nothing to do with kamma - body sensitivity rupa ("the leg") is produced by kamma; the kamma which propelled us into this existence. The object of the sense door citta process has nothing to do with kamma; the object arises because of other conditions. However, it is the arising of the object which is a condition for the sense door process to arise. ===== > R: It now > > appears as though all these vipaka cittas throughout the entire > > existence are the result of the same javana citta which propelled > > one into this existence! > N: See above. Why should we know which kamma? ===== I am not trying to understand which specific kamma (as the Sutta says, that would drive one crazy). ===== > R: This is a completely new understanding of kamma and it appears as > > though K. Sujin may have been correct! > N: She did not say what you said above. She just gave a warning: do not > specify. > But if every akusala citta is also akusala kamma, that is going very far! ===== I agree that saying that every akusala citta creates kamma is going too far. My understanding (Sarah, please clarify) is that K. Sjuin's position is that NO akusala citta creates kamma unless all the conditions are present. ===== > When seeing now, then reading and thinking of the meaning of the letters, > this is done with akusala citta when there is no dana, sila or bhavana. > Defining meanings, the same. It is good to remember that we are thinking a > lot and mostly with akusala citta. Thus, that akusala cittas are countless. > But imagine if all such moments were akusala kamma bringing a result! Then > we, laypeople, would have to live like the monks, and that is unnatural for > us. No jokes, no laughing, no icecream (as Rob K said). > What K. Sujin says about samalobha (normal lobha) and visamalobha (harmful > lobha) makes sense to me. But I would not specify which is which exactly, > where the borderline is. ===== Ooops, the other day I did a dana and served a group of monks ice- cream :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 36734 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > So, consciousness of red is kamma result but red is not. Also, mind door > consciousness of red is not kamma result. What about a gift? A gift is > not kamma result and consciousness of a gift is not kamma result. If > someone gives you a dollar, only the color etc. of the dollar is kamma > result, the value is not and the concept "gift" is not. It seems like > there must be more to kamma than citta process. What else is there (that > creates kamma) besides citta process? Is this something else ultimately > real? Is there such a phenomenon as conventional/nonultimately-real > kamma? Is it governed by conditionality? > > Also, don't you think it is a little hedonistic to say pleasant bodily > feeling is always the result of kusala kamma and unpleasant bodily > feeling is always the result of akusala kamma? We are asking many of the same questions. You might want to look at my message 36669, Nina's reply 36715 and my latest reply. Metta, Rob M :-) 36735 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 7:34pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Kamma Hi Rob, I appreciate your line of reasoning, but cannot comment, cuz I just don't know. But you might be able to help me with something I have been trying to determine from another source. You wrote: ============= If these three cittas are the result of some past action not associated with rebirth, what is the nature of the relationship? When the tree fell on the leg: - the arising of the tangible object rupa ("the tree") has nothing to do with kamma - body sensitivity rupa ("the leg") is produced by kamma; the kamma which propelled us into this existence. The object of the sense door citta process has nothing to do with kamma; the object arises because of other conditions. However, it is the arising of the object which is a condition for the sense door process to arise. ===== It is often said, and I accept, that rupa, nama and sense-base all depend on each other. Do they exist independently of each other? There is no emphasis on existence in my question, more on how an unarisen sense-door would "know" that there was a rupa to sense? Kind Regards Herman 36736 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Hi Howard, I can't help laughing. I do not think in the way of positions at all, life is too short for that!! When you write something, even if it is far away from me, I do not mind, but I find it a good idea for myself to consider. I am also grateful for several points to stressed, and for some suttas you gave, like the Removal of Distracting Thoughts. I miss the sutta threads because I do not have enough time reading suttas, although I should make time for that. BTW I liked your description of the ordination in Cambodia. Nina. op 21-09-2004 08:24 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I'm not entirely certain that there may not be some mutual > misunderstanding of our positions, and that perhaps we are further apart that > it seems. > But I must say that I do find the apparent agreement quite pleasant, and so I > will enjoy it while I can! ;-) 36737 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The present moment. Hi Howard, op 21-09-2004 18:03 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I wouldn't quite put it as you do, however, in saying "Seeing just > sees". I wouldn't put it that way, because the language suggests to me seeing > being a thing which does something - seeing being an agent. I do not view it > that > way. Seeing is not a thing that does something. It is the doing. Instead of > saying "Seeing just sees," I would be more inclined to say "Seeing is just > seeing," or, better, to say nothing at all. ;-) N: This makes me think of Matt's post. I read here many wordings about seeing, but you also realize that these are words, better say nothing. And Matt says: this He brings us back to the present moment and that is what matters. Nina. 36738 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Rob M: "...carries the label 'akusala'" Hi Rob M, See my post today. See below. op 21-09-2004 16:50 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > This is not without precedent. The eye-sensitivity rupa is produced > by kamma. The eye-sensitivity rupa arises and falls away billions of > times each second. Each new existence of eye-sensitivity rupa is > created by kamma. But for a given existence, all the eye-sensitivity > rupas produced come from the same kamma; the kamma that propelled us > into this existence. N: This was the point Kh Sujin cautioned me: do not specify which kamma. If we think too much about it, it distracts us from understanding this very moment, like seeing, which is vipaka. Nina. 36739 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of merit - generosity and cittas that arise from it Hello Phil, op 21-09-2004 15:36 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > In the same way, panna will know if there is kusala > or akusala. But our panna is still weak, not developed. Thus again a > reminder to patience. We will not know tomorrow whether there is kusala or > akusala arising from an act of giving. My current policy is to assume there > is both, coming and going in rapid succession. Panna will develop in a way > that allows better understanding of what is going in behind an act of > giving. N: That's it. Pañña will know precisely, but it can still be known more generally, or afterwards by reasoning. That is good too. Before we did not know at all. I like your example of the garbage. Formerly you might have been irritated or speak words with irritation. But we never know conditions ahead of time. Nina. 36740 From: Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The present moment. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/22/04 12:06:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > > op 21-09-2004 18:03 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >I wouldn't quite put it as you do, however, in saying "Seeing just > >sees". I wouldn't put it that way, because the language suggests to me > seeing > >being a thing which does something - seeing being an agent. I do not view > it > >that > >way. Seeing is not a thing that does something. It is the doing. Instead of > >saying "Seeing just sees," I would be more inclined to say "Seeing is just > >seeing," or, better, to say nothing at all. ;-) > N: This makes me think of Matt's post. I read here many wordings about > seeing, but you also realize that these are words, better say nothing. And > Matt says: this the sense door right now.> He brings us back to the present moment and that > is what matters. > Nina. > > ============================ I join you in applauding Matt's post. I like it very much, pointing directly, as it does, to what is of key importance - to what is real. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36741 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > It is often said, and I accept, that rupa, nama and sense-base all > depend on each other. Do they exist independently of each other? There > is no emphasis on existence in my question, more on how an unarisen > sense-door would "know" that there was a rupa to sense? Sense base is a type of rupa, so your first question simplifies to, "do nama and rupa exist independently of each other?" or to put it another way, "if a tree falls in a forest but there is none to hear it, does the sound exist?" My answer is ... (drum roll please)... "this is outside the scope of the Buddha's teaching". This question is formulated as an ontological, phenomenological question. The Buddha's focus was not on defining realities but rather on the mind (mind is what creates conditions conducive to the holy life and what brings us closer to Nibbana); see Culamalunkya Sutta (Mn 63) and Simsapa Sutta (SN LVI.31). The mind often takes rupas as object and when this happens, rupas fall under the scope of the Buddha's teaching. What happens to rupas when they are not interacting with the mind is not of concern to the Buddha; this is the type of speculative question the Buddha refused to answer. Your second question is how an unarisen sense-door would "know" that there was a rupa to sense. There are many laws of nature in this universe but the Buddha only focused on those relevant to the goal of His teachings. For example, the Buddha never talked about gravity. Why did the Buddha choose not to talk about the nature of gravity? Because understanding the nature of gravity does not lead to the holy life or to Nibbana (see Sutta references above). Let us look in more detail at the beginning of the sense door process (to keep it simple, I will not go into sub-moments). t = 0 ===== The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa do not yet exist. The mind is in experiencing a bhavanga citta t = 1 ===== The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa come into existence. The tactile object rupa arises because of temperature and it is governed by natural laws which are outside the scope of the Buddha's teaching. The body sensitivity rupa arises because of kamma; the same kamma which drove you into this existence causes this rupa to arise. The mind is experiencing another bhavanga citta. It is the same as the previous bhavanga citta. This new bhavanga citta is given the name "past bhavanga" merely to designate it's place in the sense door process. t = 2 ===== The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa are interacting with each other. The nature of this interaction is not explained in the Patthana. The Patthana goes into lots of detail about how things interact, but it does not give any description of how matter interacts with other matter. The Patthana details how mind interacts with matter, how matter interacts with mind, etc. but is silent on how matter interacts with matter (matter interacting with matter would cover the laws of physics, chemistry and biology ... outside of the scope of the Buddha's teachings). These two rupas are interacting and the interaction could be strong or weak. What would make the interaction strong vs. weak? A number of items (all outside the scope of the Buddha's teaching). For example, the touch of a light breeze (weak interaction) vs. the touch of a tree falling on my leg (strong interaction). If the interaction is very strong, we can classify the object as "very great" whereas weaker interactions give rise to "great", "slight" or "very slight" objects. The mind is experiencing another bhavanga citta. It is the same as the previous bhavanga cittas. If there is strong interaction going on between the two rupas (i.e. a "very great object"), this new bhavanga citta is given the name "vibrating bhavanga". The commentary gives the analogy of rice on a surface of a drum. If you tap your finger on the side of the drum skin, the rice will jump up because of the vibration. Your finger never touched the rice but the rice reacted to the interaction between your finger and the drum skin. If the interaction between the two rupas is weaker, then the label applied to the bhavanga citta being experienced by the mind is still experencing "past bhavanga". t = 3 ===== The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa continue to interact with each other. The mind is experiencing another bhavanga citta. It is the same as the previous bhavanga cittas. If there is strong interaction going on between the two rupas (i.e. a "very great object"), this new bhavanga citta, which follows the "vibrating bhavanga" is given the name "arresting bhavanga". The commentary gives the analogy that if a runner is told to stop, they still need to take one step after hearing the command before they actually stop. If the interaction between the rupas is strong, but not as strong as for a "very great object", then a "vibrating bhavanga" citta arises and the object is called "great object". t = 4 ===== The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa continue to interact with each other. In the case of a "very great object", the tactile object rupa becomes the object of the mind. In the case of a "very great object", the falling away of the "arresting bhavanga" is a condition for the arising of a five- sense-door adverting citta with neutral feeling. The five sense door adverting citta is functional (kiriya), it does not create kamma nor is it the result of past kamma. The role of the five sense door adverting citta is to control the flow of the mind. When the mind starts to concentrate, one-pointedness comes into play. The mind concentrates attention on the source of the disturbance to the flow of bhavanga. Concentration of attention turns the mind toward the external object. Attention makes the mind different from the previous (bhavanga) mind by controlling the mind to advert to the new object. In the case of a "great object", things are delayed by one or two moments (depending on the strength of the interaction). If the interaction between the two rupas is so weak that it takes the duration of three moments or more for the vibrating bhavanaga to arise, then the object is called "slight" (for "very slight objects", there is no sense door adverting citta at all). t = 5 ===== The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa continue to interact with each other. In the case of a "very great object" or a "great object", the tactile object rupa is the object of the mind. Conditions supporting the arising of a sense-consciousness citta include: - Falling away of the five-sense-door adverting citta - Door at which the object appears (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body); the six senses (including mind) are called doors as they are way that rupas enter into the process - Intrinsic quality of the object (undesirable, neutral, desirable); most rupas are intrinsically neutral, exceptions include a very hot temperature (undesirable) or the sight of a Buddha (desirable) Based on the door and intrinsic quality of the object, one of the ten sense-consciousness mental states will arise: - An undesirable object will cause akusala vipaka cittas to arise - A neutral object or a desirable object supports the arising of kusala vipaka cittas The sense-consciousness citta has the function of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or touching. This is "pure sensing"; there is no processing of the sensory input. The eye-consciousness citta has eye sensitivity as a base; it is located in the physical eye. Other sense-consciousness cittas have their respective sense organs (ear, nose, tongue, body) as a base. Cittas other than the ten sense-consciousness cittas are supported by the "heart-base". In the original Abhidhamma texts, this was "the matter that the mind element is based upon". In classical India, it was believed that the mind was centered in the heart (not the brain). The writers of the commentaries, following the tradition at the time (but not the Buddha's words), called this the "heart-base" (FYI: some on DSG do not agree with my position on heart-base). Herman, this was probably far more than you were asking for, so I will cut it off here. Metta, Rob M :-) 36742 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Rob M: "...carries the label 'akusala'" Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > N: This was the point Kh Sujin cautioned me: do not specify which kamma. If > we think too much about it, it distracts us from understanding this very > moment, like seeing, which is vipaka. In other words, we should analyze... but not too much :-) :-) In seriousness, I agree with you on the importance of avoiding "analysis paralysis". Metta (and appreciation), Rob M :-) 36743 From: Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: function, manifestation, etc. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/22/04 12:22:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > BTW I liked your description of the ordination in Cambodia ===================== I'm happy to hear that. BTW, I didn't make myself clear when I spoke of the ordination being at a "Cambodian wat". It IS "Cambodian" in tradition and in terms of the senior monks, but it is located in the United States. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36744 From: robmoult Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Hi Nina / Rob K / Sarah / Dan / Herman / Larry (and others...), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > For those of you who have not been following this thread, it started > with my discussion with Dan & Herman. This prompted me to explore > asynchronous kamma condition in more detail and I was surprised by > what I found (see my post 26715). Nina replied to my post in her > post 36715 and now this is my reply to Nina. Oops, my original post was 36669. I am sure that is what I typed... Perhaps Mara decided to switch some zeros into ones at Yahoo! to slow our path to enlightenment :-) :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 36745 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Picking up thread with Ken and Robert (was The Buddha as physician) Hi Matt, I was giving my explanation of something Robert K had written: ------------ KenH: > > The learned trainee does not think, "It is not good enough to know lobha as lobha, I must set up the conditions for alobha." That would, as Robert has said, indicate a lack of faith in the Dhamma - a lack of faith in the efficacy of knowing dhammas as they are. > > ------------ Matt: > I am fine with this. > ---------------- I thought you would be. You had simply misunderstood what Robert was saying. ---------------- Ken H: > > That learned trainee might entertain the thought, "I do not like lobha, therefore I will have alobha instead." If so, he will have the opportunity for knowing lobha as lobha. > > ---------------- Matt: > Would a learned trainee have such thoughts; Aversion (dosa) towards lobha and desire (lobha) for alobha? I would have thought it is wisdom that conditions alobha not dosa and lobha. > ---------------- Hopefully, this is just another misunderstanding. A trainee (ariyan disciple) who is not a Non-returner can have lobha and dosa, can he not? That's all I meant by having him say, "I do not like alobha, therefore I shall have alobha instead." I know a Sotapanna can have desire for sense pleasures, but now you've got me worried! Was I right in assuming he could have desire for mental objects, such as alobha? Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matt roke" wrote: > Hi Ken and Robert, > > Thank you for your reply Ken. > My apologies for taking so long to answer you, I have limited time. > > ============================== > ============================== > > Robert> Yet don't we reveal our lack of confidence in the Dhamma by > trying to change conditions rather than understanding them. > > ============================== > > I think I may have misunderstood what Robert was saying here. I > think there was some mention of "cleansing" and that led me to take > his point the wrong way. > > ========================= > ========================= > > KenH> The learned trainee 36746 From: Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. Hi Rob, R: "We are asking many of the same questions. You might want to look at my message 36669, Nina's reply 36715 and my latest reply." L: I doubt if there is a canonical or commentarial answer to most of these questions. My own speculative answer is that everything is kamma result but because some dhammas perform functions beyond a passive resultant function they are designated differently. I can see root consciousnesses as being both results of kamma and creators of kamma. I think contact has to be kamma result, so anything that is contacted is kamma result. However, functional consciousness doesn't seem to fit into this scheme. It is my understanding that "functional" by definition is outside the whole kamma process. So there's a problem. Also there is a vast unresolved murkiness concerning concept and reality. Larry 36747 From: dighanakha Date: Tue Sep 21, 2004 11:15pm Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hello Robert. Dig>> Sure, the verses are considered to be in the Tipitaka and Dig>> the stories are Commentary. I don't think there's any Dig>> controversy about that. But as far as the sexist material Dig>> goes this doesn't help us much because there is actually Dig>> more misogyny in the verses than in the stories. Dig>> then come the verses informing us that we should expect this Dig>> behaviour from ALL women, along with recommendations that Dig>> ALL women should be despised, avoided, distrusted, and Dig>> disbelieved. So the point of my question above is that this Dig>> material, though supposedly approved by the ancient arahant Dig>> theras and the Great Commentator Buddhaghosa, is seriously Dig>> at odds with what is taught about women in the other Nikayas Dig>> of the Sutta Pitaka, and seriously disconfirmed by reality Dig>> (it only takes one exception to falsify a universal Dig>> proposition, e.g. one woman who occasionally speaks the Dig>> truth). R> Does Buddhaghosa say absolutely that all women are to be thought R> of in this way? What I wrote above is that it is the verses that make this claim, not Buddhaghosa. In his word-commentary on the verses Buddhaghosa usually only remarks on points of grammar and word definitions. The verses' statements about women are passed over in silence. I have, however, found one exception in the Kunala Jataka, where Buddhaghosa mitigates the cuckoo's statement slightly (there may be others, but it would require a lot of work to go looking for them). Commenting on the verse: "As all rivers meander, As all forests are made of wood, So all women would do evil When given the opportunity." Buddhaghosa says: " 'All women' means that all women, excepting those whose defilements have been reduced by insight, would do evil." "Opportunity" he then explains as meaning whenever a woman can find a private place large enough to conceal herself and another. Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker To Sarah & Jon, Thank you for your replies. I will answer shortly, but I am doing it in chronological order. _____________________________ Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me.' (Dighanakha Sutta) 36749 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 0:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma (re-post - use this one.) HI RobM, I'm in a rush today, but a few very quick comments here. --- robmoult wrote: > > > K. Sujin says that only when all of the conditions recorded in > the > > > Atthasalini (Vol I, Book I, Part III, Chapter V "Discourse on > > > Courses of Immoral Action" and Chapter VI "Discourse on Courses > of > > > Moral Action") are present will kamma be created. K. Sujin says > that > > > if all of these conditions are not met, then kamma is not created > > > (but accumulations are reinforced in all cases). .... S: I've never put it quite like this or quoted K.Sujin as doing so. Maybe better if you quote from one of my posts;-) Whenever I quote K.Sujin or even paraphrase, I'm extremely careful to get it right from quoted notes or a tape. Actually, I'd be glad to have any quotes/paraphrases I gave a couple of years ago especially re-quoted. .... > > N: We have to be careful here quoting K. Sujin. Especially as to > the last > > sentence. There can be misunderstandings about what K. Sujin said. > Let us > > look again. > > ===== > > Sarah and I have gone over this point a couple of times (I have not > discussed this with K. Sujin directly). I may have misunderstood > Sarah. Sarah, please help me out here. > > ===== > > > R: My understanding was that all volitional actions created kamma .... S: This is the point you've made repeatedly and which as you say I've repeatedly rejected;-). In discussions with K.Sujin she's been very strong in her dismissal of the notion too and when we've discussed texts on the matter she's referred to the points on the different conditions and the three rounds (vatta) I've often reported back. Also, she's often referred to kamma-patha in this context. However, I've always been careful to avoid making a categorical statement like yours above to say that *only* when all the conditions pertaining to kamma-patha are in place will there be kamma bringing results. I've always left a little grey area (mainly to allow for my own limited understanding here), but I quite understand your taking the quotes and comments for being rather more black and white than intended or stated by me. As Nina also said 'kamma is not created' would not be my choice of words (or quote of K.Sujin), but I understand what you mean. Nina has addressed this. ... >>(but accumulations are reinforced in all cases). ... S: Yes, this is a correct paraphrase;-). My main point has always been to refute what I see as a sweeping comment about "all volitional actions created kamma ". I've just fished out a very short exchange with K.Sujin from our last visit in which I briefly referred to moha cittas with uddhacca (restlessness), without doubt which Nina mentioned too: *** Sarah: “Moha citta with uddhacca predominating. The Tiika states it cannot produce vipaka in the form of an unhappy rebirth, but “it does procuce vipaka in the course of life by way of unpleasant experiences through the senses”. K Sujin: "When it's not kamma patha, it just accumulates. One kamma - many, many javanas. Moha without doubt - 'part' of kamma. Uddhacca - the weakest akusala." *** S: This was the entire exchange. I won't add my own comments or paraphrase this time, but leave you and the others to make your own;-) Rob, I think it’s really helpful that you’re raising these points and we can also take up any further discussion or grey area qus in India if you like. ..... N: > > I prefer not to specify, since these things are not specified in > the > > teachings. Thus: I would not say: every akusala citta produces > result. But > > rather: when the intensity of akusala is such that it can produce > result, it > > can produce result depending on conditons. I tend to keep the > intensity more > > general, because who knows? > > ===== > R: > Even though I tend to generalize :-), I would agree that it is wrong > to say that every akusala citta produces a result. I like the way > that you positioned this. ... S: All agreed on this definition then I think. Yes, when it comes to the Abhidhamma, we need to be pretty sure before making generalizations. As I’ve said, I’ve been back on this one many times. .... R: > I agree that saying that every akusala citta creates kamma is going > too far. My understanding (Sarah, please clarify) is that K. Sjuin's > position is that NO akusala citta creates kamma unless all the > conditions are present. ... S: Of course there have to be all the right conditions for it to bring a result, but as I’ve said, I’ve been careful to avoid making the categorical statement you have (to allow for my own limited understanding or misunderstanding here) though as you can read from the quote from K.Sujin I just gave, it could be read that way. ... N: > > What K. Sujin says about samalobha (normal lobha) and visamalobha > (harmful > > lobha) makes sense to me. But I would not specify which is which > exactly, > > where the borderline is. ... S: Yes, I agree. When we were in Burma, we had quite a fun discussion on this topic with some direct questions of Shakti’s;-) K.Sujin stressed we cannot specify but ‘we can know for ourselves’ by understanding the cittas involved. That was very helpful for me. Sometimes we try hard to work it out and have black and white answers when really it just depends on the understanding and knowing when such details will just lead to book knowledge only, not to pariyatti. .... > Ooops, the other day I did a dana and served a group of monks ice- > cream :-) ... S: Anumodhana -- samalobha. Thank you for raising this. I’ve chopped lots as I’m running late. Metta, Sarah p.s I very seldom ask Jon for comments on a thread of mine, but he mentioned that all my quotes and paraphrases on this topic have been just as he heard and understood too, having been present for them all. Of course we may both have misheard/misunderstood many of the details. If I come across anything else, I'll let you know. ====== 36750 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 0:21am Subject: Re: Fare the well, friend Herman ( was Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ???) Hello Joop, Herman, Robert and all > > Joop: Of course you can decide how to spend your energy, Phil. But > perhaps the discussion can be made more general: there are two group > active in this DSG: >  those who know the whole Tipitaka are the words of the Buddha and > that the Commentaries are part of the Canon: they ask and give > information out of this frame of reference >  those who (also, in their own eyes) are Theravadins but think the > Pali Canon is the result of a historical process and that some texts > are more genuine than other ones, that some texts has to be taken > literally and other can be taken metaphorically. Thanks for laying things out so clearly, Joop. Wouldn't there be a sub-group in the first group? (Later I see you recongize that these groups are not homogenous of course) . Personally, I don't consider the commentaries to be part of the Canon. From what I understand, there are Three Baskets. But I approach the commentaries (well, I've hardly approached them yet) with enormous respect, as I would the writing of a very great teacher. Knowing that for many centuries people have turned to these commentaries adds to my respect. If they were lacking in some way, they would have disappeared by know. I'm sure there were many faulty commentaries that have disappeared. So personally I take the commentaries with the greatest respect, but don't consider them part of the Canon. Now, that could lead to my losing some debates, I suppose, if someone pointed out that a position that is supported in the commentary is not supported in the Canon, but I really doubt that would happen very often. And if I did, I wouldn't dwell on it, to tell the truth. I suppose it could be argued that without the commentaries, the Abhidhamma would be impentrable to modern Buddhist, so the commentaries should be considered part and parcel with Abhidhamma. I don't know if that's true. In any case, until recently, I would have put myself in the second group. As recently as this spring, if I recall correctly, I asked the group why the Buddha's teaching can be taken literally, or how we can assume that it was transcribed correctly, without fudging going on in the ...what were they called....the summits when the monks got together and wrote down the Canon. So I am not coming to my current position without having passed through concern about taking things too literally. Like all of us here, I'm sure, I am horrified by religious fundamentalism. I used to play in a punk band that railed again Christian fundamentalists. And here I am taking a line that could be called a kind of fundamentalism. Interesting how life works out. Now I feel there is power to be gained by taking things literally. The blind faith I mentionned. For example, the question of teaching Abhidhamma in the deva realms. I would have scoffed before. Or said, I don't disbelieve it. Now I believe it. Do I believe it deeply in my heart, in my mind? I don't know and I can't quite explain to you how I believe it. I believe it because the Buddha taught so much that has proven helpful in my life. Confidence gained from proven teachings increases confidence in teachings that I cannot prove. Take bhavanga cittas for example. Herman was asking about them the other day. When I first heard about vibrating bhavanga cittas, and 17 cittas in a process, my rational mind wondered how on earth anyone would know that, and truth be told I thought it sounded a bit silly. What has happened since then? I can't explain it, but now I have confidence that the Buddha did see into processes clearly enough to teach us about them, and though I will probably not know them directly myself (I say probably not because Nina said never say never) I haeve confidence that a bhavanga citta vibrates just before it adverts to the object, or something like that, I forget the details at the moment. This blind faith in bhavanga cittas arises often for me these days in other areas of Dhamma. How many years in an aeon? The first time I read it I thought "yeah, right." Now I know that the Buddha teaches this in a way that is both metaphorically helpful (there is no need to press hard, because if it took the Buddha aeons, it will take me aeons too) and literally true. > Joop: Of course you can decide how to spend your energy, Phil. This is it exactly, Joop. This recent exchange hs confirmed for me something that I had sort of been thinking, though not clearly. My Dhamma discussions here are not just encouraging conversations, informative conversations with kind people of intelligence, as everyone here is. They form a central part of my practice, of my bhavana - my mental development. I have recently experienced many cases in which points I have learned from K Sujin and Nina and others, and have taken note of, arise again during my busy daily life in a way that most certainly helps to cultivate the panna that will gradually eradicate defilements. The example I gave in another thread of what happened when my wife asked me to take out the garbage is just one of hundreds of examples that have arisen since I came to DSG. I think bhavana is like a river, the river described in AN V.51: ""Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains -- going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it -- and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a monk has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, when he is without strength and weak in discernment for him to understand what is for his own benefit..." We know what the hindrances are. So, I see bhavana as this river. I don't know exactly how, but I feel a river is a very suitable metaphor for mental development, and since these discussions at DSG are central to my mental development (I am not a meditator, in this lifetime, though that may change due to conditions) openings off the Bhavana River, if you will, should be avoided. Now there is no question that Herman and you and other people that might be in the second group described above are kind and intelligent people, with sincere devotion to Dhamma - that's obvious - but trying to build a bridge between the two viewpoints would be too much of a restlessness causing thing for me now. That might change. I'm a beginner, and the flow of my Bhavana River is still quite piddling. > The question is: can the 'members' is these two groups discuss with > each other and how, without boring each other and without going in > circles? > If the answer is yes, there must be some rules (and of course: > respect) > > The reaction on this message will be: what rules do you propose. But > first I'm curious if the answer is yes. To be honest: I doubt, as > someone who places himself in the second group and is more interested > in the future than in the past of Theravada Ph: Of course they can and do discuss with each other, and fruitfully. It's just that in my case there are already too many openings off my Bhavana River already. And the baseball playoffs are coming up! And the American election! I hope that at DSG I will focus in the most fruitful possible way for me at this time. Funny you mention rules. After posting to Herman and feeling vaguely guilty about it I thought of a helpful metaphor that reassured myself that I wasn't being neurotic and running away from constructive criticism. I guess you're not a North American, but hopefully you will appreciate this. What if two teams tries to play baseball, and one team thought there should be four bases, and the other three? (Three and two would be better here!) They could play the game, but would the result be good baseball? In any case, thank you for your patient feedback, Joop, and thank you Herman and Robert for your feedback. Metta, Phil 36751 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 0:53am Subject: Re: Fare the well, friend Herman ( was Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ???) Thanks Eric! Looks very helpful. Metta, Phil > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel277.html > > This sutta is not exactly blind as it shows where one has > come from and where faith leads. But then you don't have > complete blind faith as you are studying the Abhidhamma > and you talk of a Middle Way. > > The Middle Way between scepticism and credulity (blind > faith). > > PEACE > > E > 36752 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:28am Subject: RE: [dsg] Kamma Hi Robert, Thank you very much for this. I really appreciate the time and effort you have taken. The information is very clear, and certainly not too much to digest. In fact, I'm going to ask for a bit more, your time permitting :-). I have snipped all those bits I think I understand. ======= R> t = 1 ===== The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa come into existence. ===== H > I am not meaning to labour any point, I just want to get it clear to prevent future misunderstandings. Are either of them condition for the other to arise? Are either of them pre-requisites for the other? ===== R > t = 2 ===== The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa are interacting with each other. The mind is experiencing another bhavanga citta. It is the same as the previous bhavanga cittas. ===== H > Is there any information as to how it comes to be known that rupa and body sense are interacting during bhavanga citta? (I'm assuming bhavanga citta has a different object) ===== R > t = 4 ===== The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa continue to interact with each other. In the case of a "very great object", the tactile object rupa becomes the object of the mind. ===== H > Again just for clarity of understanding. Is it correct to understand rupa as being material/totally non-mental? I am simply assuming that in the process of becoming a mental object (through a sense door) there is some translation/representation going on. And isn't a rupa unknown until it is sensed/become a mental object? ===== R > Based on the door and intrinsic quality of the object, one of the ten sense-consciousness mental states will arise: - An undesirable object will cause akusala vipaka cittas to arise ===== H > I struggle with the idea that it is a characteristic of an object to be desirable or otherwise. But who is interested in "Mein Kampf" :-) I struggle even more with the idea of a/kusala as a characteristic of a momentary arising, but enough for one day. Again, thank you very much and kind regards Herman 36753 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:36am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner17-Contact /Phassa(c) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.1, Contact (Phassa)contd] ***** Phassa is different from what we mean in conventional language by physical contact or touch. When we use the word contact in conventional language we may think of the impingement of something external on one of the senses, for example the impingement of hardness on the bodysense. We may use words such as touching or impingement in order to describe phassa, but we should not forget that phassa is nama, a cetasika which arises together with the citta and assists the citta so that it can experience the object which presents itself through the appropriate doorway. When hardness presents itself through the bodysense there is phassa, contact, arising together with the citta which experiences the hardness. Phassa is not the mere collision of hardness with the bodysense, it is not touch in the physical sense. Impact is the function of phassa in the sense that it assists the citta so that it can cognize the object. Phassa is manifested by coinciding or concurrence, namely, by the coinciding of three factors: physical base (vatthu), object and consciousness. . When there is seeing, there is the coinciding of eye (the eyebase), visible object and seeing-consciousness; through this concurrence phassa, which is in this case eye-contact, is manifested. ***** [Contact (Phassa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 36754 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner16-Contact /Phassa(b) Hello all > Contact, in Pali: phassa, is mentioned first among the universals. But it is correct that the universals arise simultaneously with the citta, right? Nevertheless, is there an understood order? Arising simultaneously, but - as paradoxical as it sounds - somehow in order? I read this on p.297 of Manual of Abhidhamma (Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes): "Whenever contact occurs, feeling (vedanna) arises simultaneously, conditioned by that same contact." Soon we will see vitakka(sp?) (applied thought) which is described as kind of leaping on to the object if I recall correctly. Is that also "conditioned by that same contact?" Are all the universals "conditioned by that same contact" Do they condition one another. Ah, maybe that's what "co-nascent condition" means. I've heard that term often enough but still haven't gotten around to it. My rational mind wonders how one thing could condition another that happens simultaneously. It would seem there was a sequence of events, however tiny the gap between them. I know this is a "Cetasikas" study corner, so sorry for bringing M Ab into it, and for jumping ahead to other universals. Metta, Phil 36755 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:18am Subject: Deeds of Merit - inclination to practice kusala which is the way of generosity Hello all More from "Deeds of Merit" by Sujin Borharnwanaket" available at http://www.zolag.co.uk/meri1.html K.S Those who have accumulated the inclination to practise the way of kusala which is generosity and who see the benefit of giving as a means to eliminate defilements, will seize each opportunity to develop generosity. After they have performed deeds of generosity they have no regret, no doubt about their deeds; they are not troubled, no matter what happens to them. The reason is that their intention to be generous is pure at the moments before they give, while they are actually giving and after they have given, thus, at these three periods of time the intention or volition is wholesome (snip) Whereas, when someones citta is not firmly established in kusala, regret or worry may arise after his deed of generosity. He is disheartened and troubled, there are more akusala cittas arising than kusala cittas. Such a person is doing more than he is able to, he is overstraining himself. (end quote) Ph: I think this line "those who have accumulated the inclination to practise the way of kusala which is ....." is very interesting. It makes me think about my inclinations towards various ways of practicing kusala. I wonder if they are easy to identify? I'm going to think about it as I cook dinner. Metta, Phil 36756 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Dear Herman, You asked a few qu. in this post, however I am only attempting to answer one. My head feels like it will explode when I think about how to answer some of these posts, so then I take the easy way out and do nothing, and 'lurk'!!!!! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > Thank you very much for this. I really appreciate the time and effort > you have taken. The information is very clear, and certainly not too > much to digest. In fact, I'm going to ask for a bit more, your time > permitting :-). I have snipped all those bits I think I understand. > ......snip..... > H > Again just for clarity of understanding. Is it correct to understand > rupa as being material/totally non-mental? Az. Yes rupa is material, it does not 'know' anything. I am simply assuming that in > the process of becoming a mental object (through a sense door) there is > some translation/representation going on. And isn't a rupa unknown until > it is sensed/become a mental object? > Az. A rupa is unknown until it is 'experienced' by a nama, which can 'know' rupa and can also know nama. For example: hardness/softness is a type of rupa, it cannot know anything. The citta which is nama, can know this hardness/softness. When it becomes a mental object is is then already a concept, except when it becomes one of those 'not so classifible objects' as Sarah mentioned before in a not so long ago post. > > I struggle with the idea that it is a characteristic of an object to be > desirable or otherwise. But who is interested in "Mein Kampf" :-) > > I struggle even more with the idea of a/kusala as a characteristic of a > momentary arising, but enough for one day. > > Again, thank you very much and kind regards > > Herman Not sure if these help, Herman but I liked your brain-teaser qu. and it helps me to see where I'm coming from, when I try to answer. Patience, courage and good cheer Azita. 36757 From: robmoult Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Robert, ===== I almost missed this post... I thought that it was addressed to Rob K (who often goes by "Robert"). I haven't been called "Robert" since I was a kid :-) :-) ===== > > Thank you very much for this. I really appreciate the time and effort > you have taken. The information is very clear, and certainly not too > much to digest. In fact, I'm going to ask for a bit more, your time > permitting :-). I have snipped all those bits I think I understand. > > ======= > > R> > t = 1 > ===== > The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa come into > existence. > > ===== > > H > I am not meaning to labour any point, I just want to get it clear to > prevent future misunderstandings. Are either of them condition for the > other to arise? Are either of them pre-requisites for the other? ===== There are many types of conditions in the Patthana, but these two rupas are not prerequisites for each other. ===== > > ===== > R > > > t = 2 > ===== > The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa are > interacting with each other. > > The mind is experiencing another bhavanga citta. It is the same as > the previous bhavanga cittas. > > ===== > H > Is there any information as to how it comes to be known that rupa > and body sense are interacting during bhavanga citta? (I'm assuming > bhavanga citta has a different object) ===== I am not aware of any specific expanation other than the rice on the drum analogy. Yes, the bhavanga have an object from the previous existence. ===== > ===== > R > > > t = 4 > ===== > The tactile object rupa and the body sensitivity rupa continue to > interact with each other. In the case of a "very great object", the > tactile object rupa becomes the object of the mind. > > ===== > > H > Again just for clarity of understanding. Is it correct to understand > rupa as being material/totally non-mental? I am simply assuming that in > the process of becoming a mental object (through a sense door) there is > some translation/representation going on. And isn't a rupa unknown until > it is sensed/become a mental object? > ===== Yes rupa is non-mental in that it does not experience anything. During the sense door process the rupa is the object of cittas, but that does not make it "mental". ===== > R > > > Based on the door and intrinsic quality of the object, one of the > ten sense-consciousness mental states will arise: > - An undesirable object will cause akusala vipaka cittas to arise > > ===== > H > > > I struggle with the idea that it is a characteristic of an object to be > desirable or otherwise. But who is interested in "Mein Kampf" :-) > > I struggle even more with the idea of a/kusala as a characteristic of a > momentary arising, but enough for one day. ===== I gotta rush - there is a monk coming to my house to give a Dhamma talk to about 20 guests in a few minutes so I gotta go play host. If "inherent characteristic" makes you uncomfortable, you are really going to have a hard time with how the Abhidhamma explains that we can determine the intrinsic characteristic... "The Sammohavinodani states that the distinction between the intrinsically desirable and undesriable obtains by way of the average being (majjhima- satta): 'It is distinguishable according to what is found desirable at one time and undesirable at another time by average (men such as) accountants, government officials, burgesses, land owners and merchants.' " (quote from Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, p 172. So in brief, we gotta trust accountants, government officials and merchants! We will continue this later... people have arrived. Metta, Rob M :-) 36758 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner16-Contact /Phassa(b) Dear Phil, Do you know, I'm often so interested in the Abhidhamma, that I don't fuss too much about the how, when, where or why or even the if of its authenticity - I feel it so explains events in my life and has made me a 'better' person - even if I say so myself :-o --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: > > > Hello all > > > Contact, in Pali: phassa, is mentioned first among the universals. > > But it is correct that the universals arise simultaneously with the citta, > right? Nevertheless, is there an understood > order? Arising simultaneously, but - as paradoxical as it sounds - somehow > in order? I read this on p.297 of Manual of Abhidhamma (Bhikkhu Bodhi's > notes): > > "Whenever contact occurs, feeling (vedanna) arises simultaneously, > conditioned by that same contact." > > Soon we will see vitakka(sp?) (applied thought) which is described as kind > of leaping on to the object if I recall correctly. Is that also "conditioned > by that same contact?" Are all the universals "conditioned by that same > contact" Do they condition one another. Ah, maybe that's what "co- nascent > condition" means. I've heard that term often enough but still haven't gotten > around to it. > > My rational mind wonders how one thing could condition another that happens > simultaneously. It would seem there was a sequence of events, however tiny > the > gap between them. I know this is a "Cetasikas" study corner, so sorry for > bringing M Ab into it, and for jumping ahead to other universals. > > Metta, > Phil Azita: I think we often try to fit into our 'rational' minds these concepts [and they are only concepts until truly known by panna]. I think that Conditions may be another good study corner, but not now! Altho I can see that these realities are so interconnected that there will be some cross overs. I have a qu. Has the rupa that will be experienced by the dvi- pancavinnana [seeing consciousness etc] already arisen? is that why there is a vibrating bhavanga? patience, courage and good cheer Azita. 36759 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner16-Contact /Phassa(b) Dear Phil [again] I apologise to you, I didn't mean to discourage you from asking qu about conditions. When I reread '....but not now' it sounded a bit rude of me. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > Dear Phil, > > Do you know, I'm often so interested in the Abhidhamma, that I > don't fuss too much about the how, when, where or why or even the if > of its authenticity ...snip.... > > by that same contact?" Are all the universals "conditioned by that > same > > contact" azita: all the universals that arise with one citta condition each other then they fall away with that citta, and then the next citta arises with a new set of universals. I suppose that the falling away of one lot may be a condition for the next lot to arise? Do they condition one another. Ah, maybe that's what "co- > nascent > > condition" means. I've heard that term often enough but still > haven't gotten > > around to it. > > > > My rational mind wonders how one thing could condition another that > happens > > simultaneously. It would seem there was a sequence of events, > however tiny > > the > > gap between them. I know this is a "Cetasikas" study corner, so > sorry for > > bringing M Ab into it, and for jumping ahead to other universals. > > > > Metta, > > Phil > > Azita: I think we often try to fit into our 'rational' minds these > concepts [and they are only concepts until truly known by panna]. > > I think that Conditions may be another good study corner, but > not now! ....snip..... patience, courage and good cheer Azita. 36760 From: plnao Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner16-Contact /Phassa(b) > Dear Phil [again] > I apologise to you, I didn't mean to discourage you from > asking qu about conditions. When I reread '....but not now' it > sounded a bit rude of me. Not at all, Azita! As it turns out, I was surprised to see how a post that I intended to be one quick question about whether there is any order to the universals turned into such a long thing. More of the unwholesome restlessness that causes me to post too often instead of spending more time with the binders containing responses I have printed out. I still have to get back to that "Basic Cittas" thread with Rob, but have been neglecting my homework. BTW, I liked what you said about Abhidhamma being so helpful in daily life that there is no need to fuss about "the how, when, where or why or even the if of its authenticity." If I had read it first I could have cut and pasted it and saved the sprawling epics I wrote to Joon and Herman! You have such a nice way of putting things, short and sweet. Metta, Phil 36761 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: Paying respect. Hello Phil and all, op 21-09-2004 13:31 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Yes, Herman, I walk with eyes open through the Gates of > Abhidhamma and kneel at the feet of my teachers, K Sujin > and K. Nina. The supreme teacher, the Buddha, is there with them, as he is > there with you on your Dhamma path. N: Phil, I pay respect to your kusala citta for your appreciation of the Dhamma. Thus, this is mutual respect and appreciation because of the Dhamma. This is a lovely custom in Thailand and very natural. As I mentioned before, when in India on the last day of each pilgimage, we are all sitting on the ground, and then we kneel and pay respect to each other for all the kusala that people performed during the trip. We do not think of persons, we think of the kusala citta. People who do not know you and who, being not familiar with Asian customs, read your post, may misunderstand you, thinking that you are glorifying persons, but I know you don't. It is the Dhamma that counts, not the persons by means of whom you come into contact with the Dhamma. By the way, one correction, I am not a Dhamma teacher. I like to pay respect to anybody on this list who helps me to consider a little more and understand a little more the Dhamma. Some with their pertinent questions, others with a remark here and there, although they may not even realize how they have helped me. And I know very little about some of them, except their posts. I will not mention names, that is not necessary. With appreciation and gratefulness to all, Nina. 36762 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Hi Rob M, op 22-09-2004 03:40 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: N: >> I prefer not to specify, since these things are not specified in > the >> teachings. Thus: I would not say: every akusala citta produces > result. But >> rather: when the intensity of akusala is such that it can produce > result, it >> can produce result depending on conditons. I tend to keep the > intensity more >> general, because who knows? R: Even though I tend to generalize :-), I would agree that it is wrong > to say that every akusala citta produces a result. I like the way > that you positioned this. >> R: I checked some Suttas on kamma and they all seem to talk about >>> rebirth but never about kamma ripening during a lifetime. ... >> N: Yes, they do, take the story of MahaaMoggallana, as given by > Htoo. R: I missed Htoo's story about MahaMoggallana. I agree that there are > examples of intensities of cetana. I guess what I am looking for is > a Sutta where the Buddha said that a specific incident during an > existence (i.e. not a rebirth) was a result of kamma (as distinct > from accumulations). N: Moggallana had in a previous liufe killed his blind parents. In his last life he became an arahat, but he still had to experience akusala vipaaka produced by that evil kamma. He was killed by bandits. There are more exmaples. Take Angulimala who had killed so many. He became an arahat but had to suffer from his evil kamma before. Take M III, 140, Discourse on the Analysis of the Elements, the story of Pukkusaati who stayed with the Buddha in a potter's dwelling. He became a non-returner but then he was killed by a cow. The Co elaborates about his former life. R:U Silananda's lecture notes went into more detail on >>> asynchronous kamma (Nanakkhanika-kamma)condition: > U Silananda's chart seems to indicate that only cetana in lobha-mula > cittas can condition results according to asynchronous kamma > condition. . I will try to find the talk where he > discusses asynchronous kamma condition. N: You could compare with the Expositor. Also U Narada in Guide to Conditional Relations speaks about asynchronous kamma, which can be strong or weak. p. 51: He explains other factors which make it favorable for kamma to produce result:destiny, time, substratum of birth, effort (payoga) as also found in the Dispeller of delusion. He explains that kamma of the sense sphere may be strong or weak, but that kusala of jhana and lokuttara is always strong. R: > The question that Dan (and I) are stuck on is this: > > The body sensitivity citta, the receiving citta and the > investigating citta are all "vipaka"; this means that they are the > result of some past citta. Are these three vipaka cittas similar to > the bhavanaga cittas (i.e. all the resultant of the kamma which > conditioned rebirth) or are these three vipaka cittas the result of > some past action not associated with rebirth. If these three cittas > are the result of some past action not associated with rebirth, what > is the nature of the relationship? N: We read in the Tiika to the Vis: If in this life the investigating-consciousness in a process is akusala vipaaka, this does not mean that also the bhavangacittas are akusala vipaaka. Impossible, since birth as a human is the result of kusala kamma. All bhavangacittas in our life are kusala vipaaka. Conclusion: the investigating-consciousness in a process that is akusala vipaaka during human life, is the result from another kamma, not from kamma that produced our rebirth. > R: The object of the sense door citta process has nothing to do with > kamma; the object arises because of other conditions. However, it is > the arising of the object which is a condition for the sense door > process to arise. N: And it is kamma which arranged for the sense-cognition to experience that object. It is like a miracle what kamma achieves. > R: I am not trying to understand which specific kamma (as the Sutta > says, that would drive one crazy). > I agree that saying that every akusala citta creates kamma is going > too far. > Ooops, the other day I did a dana and served a group of monks ice- > cream :-) N: I really rejoice in your kusala. That is lovely. Tell us more about your danas. Nina. 36763 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. Hi Larry, op 22-09-2004 01:12 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:, > > So, consciousness of red is kamma result but red is not. N: You must have a reason to use the wording consciousness of red. Seeing is result of kamma. Focussing on red is another citta that arises in a mind-door process. However, this does not mean that seeing does not see red. This is a good topic for considering. Seeing sees all that appears through eyesense, but it does not know, this is red. I used to find it difficult, and it is still difficult for me. A. Sujin said: do you know how many colours there are in this room? Answer: we cannot count them, but seeing sees them all. Not only red is seen when there happens to be a red flower, but also the colours next to it. That shows that seeing does not focus on anything, it just sees all that appears through eyesense. You say: red is not kamma result. No, never the mental result. Colour is rupa. But rupa of the body can be produced by kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition. When you look at a sunburnt part of the body, the red colour is produced by temperature. L: Also, mind door consciousness of red is not kamma result. What about a gift? A gift is > not kamma result and consciousness of a gift is not kamma result. If > someone gives you a dollar, only the color etc. of the dollar is kamma > result, the value is not and the concept "gift" is not. It seems like > there must be more to kamma than citta process. What else is there (that > creates kamma) besides citta process? Is this something else ultimately > real? Is there such a phenomenon as conventional/nonultimately-real > kamma? N: These are difficult questions discussed here before. We read in the suttas about gain and loss, praise and blame, etc. The Buddha explained in the Suttas about kamma and vipaka in conventional terms. We learn through the Abhidhamma about kamma and vipaka in the ultimate sense, thus, as they occur from moment to moment. There is no contradiction here. A gift: it may be pleasant through the eyes, thus, seeing that is kusala vipaaka. Result of kamma. However, it is difficult to know precisely whether just seeing, only one moment, is kusala vipaaka. We think about the gift and then pleasant visible object impinges again and again on the eyesense, and this conditions seeing, kusala vipaaka again and again. By thinking about it we can have a general understanding of what is kusala vipaka. Only through the development of insight we can have a more precise understanding. We can be easily deluded. We look at what we believe to be a pleasant object but there are different doorways through which objects are received. Example: A. Sujin said to me long ago: someone wears a beautiful necklace of heavy beads: pleasant to experience through the eyes, but heavy through the bodysense, thus an unpleasant object is experienced through the bodysense. In the case of bodily wellbeing or misery (among the eight worldly conditions): painful feeling when sick is the result of akusala kamma. When we talk about sickness as a situation in conventional languga there are many different moments. The hearing of bad news, say from the medical doctor. Hearing sound is vipaaka. A. Sujin explained to me: when the sound is produced by citta with compassion, hearing it is kusala vipaaka. Again, there are many different moments, but we confuse the vipaaka, sense-cognitions, with our reactions through thinking about it. L: Is it governed by conditionality? N: Whatever happens does so because of conditions, but these conditions are intricate. Kamma-condition is one condition, but there are other conditions which make it favorable for kamma to produce result right at that moment. > L: Also, don't you think it is a little hedonistic to say pleasant bodily > feeling is always the result of kusala kamma and unpleasant bodily > feeling is always the result of akusala kamma? N: Since bodily feeling is such a short moment, it is most difficult to really understand it. It is merely passive, vipaaka, and it has nothing to do with like or dislike and the pleasant or unpleasant mental feeling that are together with like and dislike. When we think of pleasant and unpleasant bodily feeling we immediately associate these words with pleasant and unpleasant mental feeling that arise so shortly after the bodily feelings that it all seems one moment. In reality this is not so. That is what Rob M explained, saying the feeling is in the mind. We have to carefully consider this. We know so little about this rapidly passing moment of bodily feeling. But when we are sick or in case of accident, the rupa that is tangible object impinges again and again, painful feeling arises again and again, and by thinking about it we realize that there is pain. But immediately we also are bound to have aversion. Only insight can disentangle the different feelings. Vipaaka is a short moment, but as I read in the Tiika to Vis. 102: the result of akusala is not devoid of affliction: na hi akusalassa vipaako adukkho hoti. Nina. 36764 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Deeds of merit - generosity and cittas that arise from it Hello Phil, op 22-09-2004 01:26 schreef plnao op plnao@j...: > Are > there few kusala cittas and many akusala or > more kusala than akusala? Since we know akusala outnumbers kusala, for > worldlings, it might be right to start by assuming the > former, but stay open to the possibility of the latter, and grateful to the > Buddha who teaches the way to make that possibilty a reality. > > Maybe we should see the ethical implications of an act as a momentary > balance sheet > rather than one citta that can be pinpointed? N: You are right we cannot pinpoint different moments. Only through insight we shall know more clearly the different cittas. However, it is not to be denied that there are also kusala cittas. It is not so that there are only akusala cittas. We can have a degree of knowledge about this, but not yet precise from moment to moment. Nina. 36765 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anger and craving Hello duncan, nice to have you back. op 21-09-2004 22:12 schreef bluescatplayah op bluescatplayah@y...: Does anger arise from craving exclusively, or does anger > arise, in some instances, from stimuli in which craving is not a > factor? N: It is also conditioned by ignorance, ignorance of the Buddha's teaching, ignorance of realities. There is ignorance together with each moment of anger. And, as Larry explained, it is also conditioned by craving. But craving does not arise at the same time as anger. In fact, ignorance and craving are the roots of the cycle of birth and death. They are only completely eradoicated by the arahat who has come to the end of birth. D:It has become apparant, during deep examination, that if > anger arises in my own mind that there is always a root cause of > either craving or aversion. N: We can check: when things are not the way we would like them to be there is aversion. As Larry said, there is no I in aversion, it is conditioned. Aversion is accompanied by unpleasant feeling, domanassa. There are many aspects of dukkha, bodily pain and mental unpleasant feeling are aspects of dukkha. D: So the question arises: is anger always > born of craving, or are there circumstances in which craving plays no > part? N: We like pleasant objects and dislike unpleasant objects, and we do not see their futility. So we are swung to and fro between like and dislike. Crying immediately when we do not get what we want. There are deeper causes of defilements: the latent tendencies. These are defilements that are accumulated in the citta like microbes. Formerly you had aversion and craving and these fell away, but they have been accumulated in the citta from moment to moment. Desire and aversion are among the latent tendencies. They can cause at any time, when the circumstances are favorable, when there is the right object, the arising of akusala citta. When the object is pleasant the latent tendency of desire may condition the arising of citta rooted in attachment, it adheres to that object. When the object is unpleasant, the latent tendency of aversion may condition the arising of citta rooted in aversion, it adheres to that object. When the akusala citta falls away, attachment and aversion continue on as latent tendency. Since we have accumulated aversion it will always find an object. There are other conditions for aversion. Wrong friendship can condition all kinds of akusala, even bad deeds motivated by aversion. Wrong friends give wrong examples. Think of children harming animals or elderly people. Climate can condition aversion: when it is too cold you may suffer and have aversion. So you see that there are many different conditioning factors operating in our lives. Nina. 36766 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Herman, op 22-09-2004 01:39 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofman@t...:> > You wrote: > =========== > As to the expression wrong view, this refers to the wrong view of > annihilation view and so on. > > N: This includes the belief that after death there will not be rebirth. > H > I am assured that after death there will be rebirth. In your book I > have wrong view. What should I do about that? N: Think of Gradual Sayings (A ii 245) and apply it. Nina. 36767 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Citta. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Phil: > K I: (I, 7, §2, The Devas, no 7, Over under Suttas, The heart (mind, citta): > Nor what is that whereby the world is led? > And what is that whereby it plaques itself (is drawn along)? > And what is that above all other things > That brings everything beneath its sway? > N: The answer of the Sutta is: is thoughts, cittas. > Friend James could give you B.B.'s translation. I wish he would again take > up the Kindred Sayings thread. Friend Nina, Thank you for the kind mention. I would be happy to give Phil (Hi Phil! ;-) the translation of whatever you are referring to but I am afraid I am a bit out of the loop. I have been spending most of my spare time these days reading past articles from the "The Wheel" from BPS (and meditating, of course). Some of them have been quite enlightening to me and my individual practice. Also, I am not sure what you mean by my "taking up again the Kindred Sayings thread"…but it sure sounds impressive!! Hehehe… Are you sure I participated in anything as lofty as that!!?? ;-)) Anyway, let me know what you would like me to do when you get the chance. I have thought of you and hope that everything is going well with you (I feel I have reasons to smile.). Take care. Metta, James 36768 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:32pm Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 069 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, We have discussed all 89 states of mind. All 89 cittas have been touched. When these 89 cittas are understood, learning of mind phenomena becomes much more easier than without knowledge of these 89 cittas. Whoever at any time will have a citta. This citta may be one of these 89 cittas. Another reality is cetasikas. There are 52 different cetasikas. Before going deep into cetasika dhamma, it is good to discuss cittas more detail. This detailing will make the classifications of citta much more clearer because sometimes cittas are talked as 121 cittas in total. It is said that 'itthamekuuna navuti pabhedam pana maanasam. Ekaviisa satamvaatha, vibhajanti vicakkhanaa'. Those who are wise also critically count cittas as 121 cittas ( eka visa satam_1, 20, 100 = 121 cittas in total ). There are cittas which are kamavacaras, which are rupavacaras, and which are arupavacaras. Just before magga cittas arise, there always arise kamavacara mahakusala cittas namely parikamma, upacara, and anuloma. Those who do not attain jhanas when they are right and fully perfected for magga cittas to arise, the series that has been described in the previous posts arise. Magga and phala cittas arise in this way, there will be 8 total lokuttara cittas. But those who attain 8 jhanas that is all 5 rupa jhanas and all 4 rupa jhanas, if thier magga cittas arise in the vicinity of these jhanas, these lokuttara cittas are counted as lokuttara jhana cittas. There are 5 rupa jhanas as there are 5 total jhana factors. All arupa jhanas have ekaggata jhana factor and upekkha vedana as in case of 5th rupa jhana. So all arupa jhanas can be counted as 5th jhana because they do have jhana factors of the 5th jhana. When in the 1st jhana, the object is the object of jhana. It is not a paramattha dhamma. If object is not paramattha dhamma, there is no reason to discern anicca, dukkha, anatta in that object which actually do not exist. But magga citta can arise in the vicinity of jhana cittas and these magga cittas do have the same cetasikas that jhana cittas have. The practitioner starts with paikamma bhavana and then moves up to upacara bhavana. Unlike those without jhanas, these practitioners who attain jhanas will rise up to appana bhavana. This jhana appana bhavana is rupavacara rupa jhana citta and when in 1st jhana, all arising jhana cittas one after another are absorbed into the jhana object. At a time, as their predetermined period has lapsed they emerge from their 1st jhana and then they do paccavakkhana. At that time and in those vithi vara, cittas are not rupavacara cittas. Instead they all are kamavacara mahakusala tihetuka cittas. They see paramattha dhamma and they see the marks on paramattha dhamma and realise that these paramattha dhamma are all impermanent, suffering, and not self. After paccavakkhana, these vithi vara arise and this is followed by bhavanga cittas. Bhavangas again stop and there arise manodvara avajjana citta arise. After that parikamma kamavacara mahakusala citta arises. The object is jhana citta and its cetasikas and their marks. This high direct knowledge is then transferred to next citta called upacara kamavacara mahakusala citta. This gives its object to anuloma kamavacara mahakusala citta. These 3 cittas, parikamma, upacara, anuloma cittas do have the same jhana cetasikas as their preceeding jhana cittas. In the vicinity of jhana cittas these vithi varas arise and after gotrabhu citta, 'vitakka, vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam sotapatti magga pathamajjhana lokuttara kusala citta' arises. This is 82nd if cittas are counted as 121 cittas. But to avoid confusion, 40 lokuttara cittas will not be numbered again. Lokuttara cittas are all appana samadhi cittas. So all lokuttara cittas are said to be jhana cittas. But we have to be careful that these lokuttara cittas are never rupavacara cittas or they are never arupavacara cittas. They that is all 40 lokuttara cittas are lokuttara cittas. They are not rupavacara cittas and they are not arupavacara cittas. But they can be said that they are jhana cittas because they all are appana citta. Appana means close attention, close looking, close viewing. They are so close that they are fused with the object. Here the only object is nibbana and not other object. All lokuttara cittas have appana samadhi. All lokuttara cittas have higher nana. So it is said that 'without jhana, no panna and without panna, no jhana' in dhammapada. Panna here is not just transferred knowledge of reading or listenoing of others but direct knowledge of magga nana and phala nana. Jhana here is not rupavacara rupa jhanas or arupavacara arupa jhanas but they all are lokuttara appana jhana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS:Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36769 From: robmoult Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:44pm Subject: Fellowship Hi All, About a year ago, my wife commented to a monk that Christians did a much better job of promoting fellowship than Buddhists. My wife noted that it was not uncommon for Christians to organize fellowship meetings at people's houses (this in not uncommon in Malaysia, I believe that it is less common among Christians in Western countries). The monk suggested that we follow the Christians' example and organize a fellowship meeting in our own home. The monk even suggested a few names of lay Dhamma speakers. Since that time, every two or three weeks, we open our house to a group of friends, many of them from my Sunday morning Abhidhamma class. We bought 20 meditation cushions so that everybody feels comfortable on the floor of our living room. We have been very fortunate to have excellent speakers come to our house. Frankly, attending a Dhamma talk in a temple or a Buddhist Centre is really nice, but attending a Dhamma talk in somebody's home is better. Dhamma talks in a home are much more intimate and much more interactive than Dhamma talks in a hall. Having a Dhamma talk in a home drives home the point that Dhamma has to be part of our daily life. It has more impact. Last year, I visited my home town of Toronto. I stopped in at the Sri Lankan temple because this is the tradition that we follow in Malaysia. It is a beautiful temple, but I got the feeling that it was more of a Sri Lankan community centre. I understand why this is so in Western countries but it doesn't help to spread the Dhamma. You (and your friends) may not feel 100% comfortable attending talks given in such an environment. However, if you check, I am confident that the monk would be more than willing to come to your house to give a Dhamma talk to you and your friends (Note: if you choose this approach, best to discuss monk-etiquette with the monk and give your friends some pointers in advance). It is not difficult to organize such a session: 1. Confirm a convenient date with a speaker 2. SMS a group of friends to spread the word 3. Lay out some water / tea / biscuits for after the talk For the past couple of weeks, we have had Ven. Abhinyana as our speaker, an Australian monk who is visiting Malaysia. He is an excellent speaker with sometimes unconventional views that make one think. You can read some of his writings at his website: http://members.tripod.com/anatta0/ These Dhamma fellowship evenings bring a lot of joy into our house, a lot of joy into our life and a lot of joy into our friends' lives as well. It is often close to midnight before people leave and everybody leaves with a smile. As our friends bring their friends along, we get to meet new people as well. My reason in posting this message is to encourage you to consider doing something similar. Perhaps your conditions do not support 20 people... okay, do it with five people. Perhaps Dhamma speakers are difficult to find in your area... okay, pick a list of topics (i.e. gathas from the Mangala Sutta) and rotate who leads the discussion in each session. Perhaps it is difficult to find five Theravada friends... okay, open the discussion to include Mahayana and Vajrayana friends. Perhaps the idea of "every two or three weeks" seems daunting... okay, do it once. On DSG, I know that Christine, Ken H, Azita, Andrew and others organize weekends in Cooran from time to time. Some friends from DSG make "group pilgrimages" to Bangkok, Burma, India and other places. I am confident that those who have participated in these trips come back "charged up" after listening to the Dhamma (dhamma-savana), sharing the Dhamma (dhamma-desana) and straightening out views (ditthijjukamma). Again, I encourage you to consider starting small. It does not have to be elaborate. It is not expensive. I encourage you to literally bring the Dhamma into your home. Metta, Rob M :-) 36770 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:58pm Subject: Rebirth[herman]OK, Abhidharma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Nina, > > That should have had a no in it, like so : > > I am assured that after death there will be no rebirth. In your book I > have wrong view. What should I do about that? > > ++++++++++++ Dear Herman, If you like I could try to help with this. If I understand you rightly you believe that death is the final end for each of us, there is no rebirth? RobertK 36771 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:03pm Subject: RE: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Nina, and everyone, Would somebody be kind enough to post me a link to A ii 245? Thanks and Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] Sent: Thursday, 23 September 2004 3:05 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] OK, Abhidharma Hi Herman, op 22-09-2004 01:39 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofman@t...:> > You wrote: > =========== > As to the expression wrong view, this refers to the wrong view of > annihilation view and so on. > > N: This includes the belief that after death there will not be rebirth. > H > I am assured that after death there will be rebirth. In your book I > have wrong view. What should I do about that? N: Think of Gradual Sayings (A ii 245) and apply it. Nina. 36772 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:17pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Rebirth[herman]OK, Abhidharma Hi Robert, Thanks for your post and the offer of assistance. Some more below. ==== > Hi Nina, > > That should have had a no in it, like so : > > I am assured that after death there will be no rebirth. In your book I > have wrong view. What should I do about that? > > ++++++++++++ Dear Herman, If you like I could try to help with this. If I understand you rightly you believe that death is the final end for each of us, there is no rebirth? ==== Yes, you have understood me well. I will gladly take up your offer of assistance, not because I want to believe there is rebirth, out of any number of beliefs that exist about what happens to people after they die, but because I want to see things as they are. Thanks and Kind Regards Herman 36773 From: Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 4:47pm Subject: Vism.XIV,102 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 102. Profitable resultant, though, has desirable or desirable-neutral objects only, while these have undesirable or undesirable-neutral objects only. The former are of three kinds, being classed according to equanimity, bodily pleasure, and mental joy, while these are of two kinds, being classed according to bodily pain and equanimity. For here it is only body-consciousness that is accompanied by bodily pain; the rest are accompanied by equanimity. And the equanimity in these is inferior, and not very sharp as the pain is; while in the former it is superior, and not very sharp as the pleasure is. So with these seven kinds of unprofitable resultant and the previous sixteen kinds of profitable resultant, sense-sphere resultant consciousness is of twenty-three kinds. 36774 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg]1 Rebirth[herman]OK, Abhidharma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" < > > Dear Herman, > If you like I could try to help with this. If I understand you > rightly you believe that death is the final end for each of us, > there is no rebirth? > ==== > Yes, you have understood me well. I will gladly take up your offer of > assistance, not because I want to believe there is rebirth, out of any > number of beliefs that exist about what happens to people after they > die, but because I want to see things as they are. > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++= Dear Herman, I'll try to write a few posts on this. First I begin with the Kesaputta sutta (incorrectly called the Kalama sutta by modern Buddhists) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-065.html In this sutta the Buddha meets a group of people who wonder about what is true. Some teachers claim that there is a future life and rebirth, while others rubbish the idea. They ask the Buddha who is right. The Buddha replies that for one who has purified the mind: "'If there is a world after death, if there is the fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then this is the basis by which, with the break-up of the body, after death, I will reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world.' This is the first assurance he acquires. "'But if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then here in the present life I look after myself with ease -- free from hostility, free from ill will, free from trouble.' This is the second assurance he acquires. "" For these people who were filled with doubts about the future and past this helped to alay them. They could see that at the very least developing a purified mind gave them advantages in this life. And if there was a fuure life then they would win double (now and in the future) . And so they were able to let go of their doubts and take refuge in the Buddha. The sutta ends: "Magnificent, lord! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has the Blessed One -- through many lines of reasoning -- made the Dhamma clear. We go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May the Blessed One remember us as lay followers who have gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life." RobertK 36775 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner16-Contact /Phassa(b) Dear Azita and Phil, op 22-09-2004 13:52 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > I have a qu. Has the rupa that will be experienced by the dvi- > pancavinnana [seeing consciousness etc] already arisen? is that why > there is a vibrating bhavanga? N: Yes. Rupa is weak at its arising moment, it cannot be doorway nor can it be object. After a rupa (that will be an object) has disturbed the bhavanga-citta it is experienced by the first citta of the process of cittas, by the adverting-consciousness. But at that moment the rupa is already strong, and it can go on until it ceases after a duration of 17 moments of cittas. A: all the universals that arise with one citta condition each other then they fall away with that citta, and then the next citta arises with a new set of universals. I suppose that the falling away of one lot may be a condition for the next lot to arise? N: Each citta that falls away conditions the arising of the following citta by way of contiguity condition. Whenever we say citta we also mean the accompanying cetasikas, the whole lot. Phil had a Q about conascence condition. N: This operates for citta and cetasikas and also for rupas that arise together in a group. For citta and cetasikas that are conascent there are many types of conditions by way of which they condition one another. They fall away together and then there is a different lot. Nina. 36776 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:22pm Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "dighanakha" wrote: > Hello Robert. > > > > Dig>> then come the verses informing us that we should expect this > Dig>> behaviour from ALL women, along with recommendations that > Dig>> ALL women should be despised, avoided, distrusted, and > Dig>> disbelieved. So the point of my question above is that this > Dig>> material, though supposedly approved by the ancient arahant > Dig>> theras and the Great Commentator Buddhaghosa, is seriously > Dig>> at odds with what is taught about women in the other Nikayas > Dig>> of the Sutta Pitaka, and seriously disconfirmed by reality > Dig>> (it only takes one exception to falsify a universal > Dig>> proposition, e.g. one woman who occasionally speaks the > Dig>> truth). > > > R> Does Buddhaghosa say absolutely that all women are to be thought > R> of in this way? > > What I wrote above is that it is the verses that make this claim, > not Buddhaghosa. In his word-commentary on the verses Buddhaghosa > usually only remarks on points of grammar and word definitions. > The verses' statements about women are passed over in silence. I > have, however, found one exception in the Kunala Jataka, where > Buddhaghosa mitigates the cuckoo's statement slightly (there may > be others, but it would require a lot of work to go looking for > them). > > Commenting on the verse: > > "As all rivers meander, > As all forests are made of wood, > So all women would do evil > When given the opportunity." > > Buddhaghosa says: " 'All women' means that all women, excepting > those whose defilements have been reduced by insight, would do > evil." > > "Opportunity" he then explains as meaning whenever a woman can > find a private place large enough to conceal herself and another. > > +++++++++++ Dear DighaNakha, Thanks, great work on finding the piece from Buddhaghosa. I think it shows that there are exceptions to the general comments about women. I feel I have grown up on Jataka and find them all very helpful. Even the rather disparaging comments are useful: they warn. I was a bit romantic in my youth and would feel downhearted when (as happened several times) a love would desert me for another. Now I feel almost free of jealously - if my current girlfriend goes with another man, then I feel that is the way it should be. I contrast this with one of my friends who is so upset that his wife of 12 years left him for a lover, he really cannot accept it. His grief is extreme. RobertK 36777 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Hi Rob M, Recently, I corrected the wording of an answer you had given to Catalin: RM: > When one dies, the physical body falls away but the mind continues with another body. > I thought you had accidentally given the impression of a mind that existed outside the present, momentary, nama and rupa. Now I am wondering if that was entirely accidental.(!) Why, for example, have you told Herman that, in the first three moments of a sense- door process, "the mind is experiencing a bhavanga citta?" Surely, at those times, the mind IS a bhavanga-citta. There is no external mind into which, and out of which, cittas come and go. While I am at it, I might point out some other parts of your answer I found disconcerting: ----------------- RM: > There are many laws of nature in this universe but the Buddha only focused on those relevant to the goal of His teachings. For example, the Buddha never talked about gravity. Why did the Buddha choose not to talk about the nature of gravity? Because understanding the nature of gravity does not lead to the holy life or to Nibbana > ----------------- That gives the impression that gravity is a part of absolute reality. But isn't gravity only a concept? ----------------- RM: > The tactile object rupa arises because of temperature and it is governed by natural laws which are outside the scope of the Buddha's teaching. > ----------------- Is that correct? Has the Buddha only partly explained the conditions governing rupa? ------------------ RM: > This question is formulated as an ontological, phenomenological question. The Buddha's focus was not on defining realities but rather on the mind (mind is what creates conditions conducive to the holy life and what brings us closer to Nibbana); ----------------------- I think you need to accept that the Buddha did define realities: otherwise, you will continue to confuse them with concepts. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 36778 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: CSC 4-[Sarah: "citta is..."] Dear Dan, (Matt, Mike, others in passing), --- "Dan D." wrote: > Dear Sarah, > Is not the idea of "conceptual right view" a trap, much like the > notion of "conventional right effort"? Isn't it just taking a factor > of the eightfold path and reconstituting it as concept rather than > cetasika? Is there any canonical or commentarial support for doing > that? .... S: I’m sure it can be in just the way you describe, but there are degrees of right understanding (of any kind) and it would be for the person using this phrase to clarify further for you;-). I was merely correcting what I saw as an error in what you wrote which suggested that the only panna was mundane and supramundane panna of the eightfold path. This is what I wrote: >S: "Understanding (pañña) is of many sorts and has various aspects" - eg in samatha development. Concepts as object such as the qualities of the Buddha or the Dhamma or any of the other objects. But in this section of the Vism, it is just understanding (insight) of vipassana which is being discussed. Remember, panna accompanies all moments of bhavana (samatha and vipassana). My point was that in MN117, like in Vism under 'Understanding', it is insight (vipassana)- mundane and supramundane which is being referred to as you rightly stressed.< ..... S: Now I don’t think I’ve used ‘conceptual right view’ as a phrase, but like with many other phrases, eg ‘seeing sees visible object’, we need to talk more to the user to find out the implied meaning rather than getting too hung up on the words. We can also use exact the right phraseology but with wrong view....so it just depends on the meanings intended, I think. ***** I’m appreciating your thread with RobM, Mike, Herman and all. Behind on my reading, however, so read a couple of quick comments with that in mind. You mentioned (36512) that you find it hard to take that the pain from the falling tree on your leg is a result of bad kamma. Sometimes there is very strong bodily unpleasant feeling, at other times not. We hear about people falling through windows and so on and not experience painful feelings whilst at other times, they are very strong when we’d expect otherwise. Also, quite unpredictable and different for various people. If a tree falls on both our legs at the same time, the vipaka will not be the same at all. So, it depends on the vipaka as to whether any rupas and what rupas are experienced through the body sense at any instant. There's no time for thinking or adverting to pain, the unpleasant (or painful) bodily feeling just accompanies the body consciousness which experience the rupas. However, I agree with RobM that the kamma couldn’t have its effect without natural decisive support condition too. Hence, kamma and NDSC are very important conditions as he says and of course, without the rupas arising to be experienced through the body sense or the body sense rupas themselves, no opportunity for vipaka cittas either as everyone agrees, I think. Of course, most of what we think of as ‘pain’ is really the mental aversion arising with countless subsequent cittas. the vipaka through the body-sense experiencing just hardness, temperature or motion is so very, very brief. Btw, like you, I thought Matt’s comments on seeing and dark and light cittas, but also your reply (36621) were spot on and very clear. Also Mike’s on kamma (36557) was very good indeed. One brief quote: M:“I’m ‘poor’ now, so I was stingy earlier in this life, or ten or a gazillion lives ago? Who cares? I’d rather understand what’s happening right now.” (Of course, your (Dan’s) concern wasn’t to find out when what happened to cause this as stressed). Kusala and akusala vipaka -- we only mind about which because of kilesa.Without attachment, no concern about what is experienced right now - hence the guarding of the sense doors and development of detachment from whatever is conditioned to arise by way of vipaka. p.s Where did you get your U Kyaw Khine transl of Dhs from and how is it? Dan, all your recent posts have a really ‘sweet’ touch if you don’t mind me saying so. Greatly appreciated. Metta, Sarah ===== 36779 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 0:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner18-Contact /Phassa(d) Dear Friends, Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.1, Contact (Phassa)contd] ***** We read in the 'Discourse of the Honey-ball' (Middle Length sayings I, no. 18) that Maha-kaccana explained to the monks concerning contact: -This situation occurs: that when there is eye, your reverences, when -there is visible object, when there is visual consciousness, one will -recognise the manifestation of sensory impingement (phassa)... When there is the concurrence of the ear, sound and hearing-consciousness, there is the manifestation of ear-contact. When there is the concurrence of body-sense, a tangible object such as hardness and the experience of hardness, there is the manifestation of body-contact. Eye-contact is different from ear-contact and different from body-contact. At each moment of citta there is a different phassa which conditions the citta to experience an object. Phassa is not the doorway through which citta experiences an object. In the case of a sense-door process the rupa which is one of the senses is doorway and in the case of a mind-door process nama is doorway, namely the last bhavanga-citta arising before the mind-door adverting-consciousness, the first citta of the mind-door process (1) ..... (1)See Introduction. ***** [Contact (Phassa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 36780 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 0:45am Subject: Re: Theory and Practice _Sukin & Htoo Dear Htoo, > Ongoing discussion: [ Sukin & Htoo ] > > Sukin: > > I admire your patience, a good example for me. Thank you. :-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I try to be limitless. But sometimes limit arises but I smile > immediately and impatience does not come out evidently. S> (-: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I do not have any comment to give on this matter. But I think > it might be just a continuation of 'dutinga' which he might have been > practising before his final years. > > We worldly people have instincts. Bhikkhus are human beings. They > break one instinct by joining sangha order. Next are food and sleep. > > I do not say, the monk did not sleep. But lying in bed is, I think, > what almost all people of the world will not avoid. > > I do not want to be judgemental but this is my thought which arises > as you asked. S> Yes, no point judging third persons, unless of course the objective is using them as example to show any wrong views we may have. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Htoo: > >I remember that the Venerable preached that, 'When you are on > board like a ship or boat or ferry, you have to note 'moving..moving, > sitting..sitting'. He preached that for lay people...snip.. move to > higher level and this urge changes a bit. > > Sukin: > > I will come back to this later in the post. S> My point here is to discuss about what a beginner needs to hear. For someone with good accumulation of panna, reference to bodily postures may condition an awareness of paramattha dhammas. However someone who is not firm in pariyatti, this may cause him to think that standing, sitting, moving and so on are `realities' to be observed. It is so easy for lobha to be conditioned at any point. So I think for someone with still very weak accumulations of panna, mistaking wrong awareness for sati is very likely to happen, and this will = then condition attachment to the practice. I think it is very important to study first the Teachings and come to know = exactly what satipatthana means and to question any advice for a practice. I understand that there are some people who believe that one must start with the above kind of practice, and that later on one then comes to `observe' paramattha dhammas. I think this is wrong. The correct practice must in my opinion, start with correct intellectual understanding. Do you agree with this? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: 3. Someone may study the Dhamma as he would any worldly subject. In > which case he may be able to remember and recall concepts within the > Teachings quite appropriately to the situation. But this does not > necessarily involve any deep understanding of any one of those concepts. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I accept that. You mean direct knowledge? S> Yes, patipatti. ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > I do believe that you are not boasting, I think that you are very > sincere. But allow me to express my view about the development of > sati and panna. > Htoo: I like these two words. Amara always says these two words. But > I would say there is no panna without sati. > > But there are sati without panna. S> One reason I stress these two words is because many people tend to link the development of `concentration' with the development of panna. I think there is no basis for such a connection. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Htoo: > >Yes. Mahasatipatthana should be our part of life and it should be in > >daily life. > > But we should not abandon the formal practice. When I write this, I > >am thinking that you may disagree. > > Sukin: > > Yes, I do disagree. As I said above, I don't think there can be any > control as to what will be the object of citta and whether there will > be right or wrong view with regard to it. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I know that there is no control. Formal practice I mean sitting > in usual position of lotus. > > The Buddha had done His job that is searching of answers. All arahats > had done their jobs at arahatta magga khana. All their jobs had been > done. But I would say their sitting under a tree as formal practice. > > They are not looking for anything why sikkhas are looking for > arahatta magga nana. But the action of sitting, staying in > mahasatipatthana much not that differ. > > The Buddha did sit. Mahamoggalana did sit. Sariputta did sit.Upali > did sit. Kondanna did sit. Assaji did sit. Ananda did sit. Many other > arahats did sit. > > But these days people are discussing 'formal sitting or not'. I just > smile. > > Amara, Sarah, and some other people would deny sitting. As I > anticipated you, Sukin also reject the idea of sitting. > > I do not put aside pariyatti. But sitting formally is just following > the foregoers. > > I am not sitting in order to 'arise my sati, my panna, my samadhi, my > concentration'. But I do sit daily. I discern on what I experienced > while I am sitting. S> If it is natural for you to sit, I think it is fine. Different people ha= ve different reasons for doing things. The Bhikkhus during the Buddha's time had accumulations to sit. Even the unenlightened disciples had by the time they ordained, very little inclination to do anything else, remember they were developing one kind of kusala or the other as a natural behavior. The enlightened disciples, particularly the anagami and arahat had no more any attraction to sensual objects, so even if they were not in jhana or listening to dhamma, what else could they be doing but `sitting' and observing whatever is arising. But even they would not `choose' this in preference to any other duty that they may have. I think the example they set is not so that we `imitate' their outward behavior, but to delve into the cause which lead to where they finally arrived. And this is to consider the conditioned realities arising in daily= life no matter what our outward circumstance might be, starting first with pariyatti, I think. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > Actually, I have reservation with regard to any `idealistic' attitude > about developing Mahasatipatthana even in daily life. I feel this way > because it can condition the idea of `self' and `control'. In a day > if there is no satipatthana at all, it is good to know this, better > than then following some practice and risk having a false idea of > achievement and progress. > Htoo: > > Here what I can see is initial misunderstanding. If initial idea was > out of way, there will never approach the right way unless the > initial way is recognised as wrong. S> But the tendency to wrong view and attachment is so strong that we have all the time to be reminded about the basics and shown the different manifestations of wrong practice. If we are not in constant touch with the right teachings and be in the company of wise friends sharing our understandings, then I think it is very easy to go wrong. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Htoo: > >I would say mahasatipatthana should be in our daily life. On the > >other hand, formal practice should be practised. > > >The Buddha stayed in phalasamapatti. Great arahats stayed in > >phalasamapatti. Many arahats stayed in phalasamapatti. Some > >arahats sometimes stayed in nirodha sapamatti. > > Sukin: > > But is this the same as "formal practice"? > Htoo: I have explained my view above. They have done their job and > they do not have any more job for liberation. But they do sit in > formal sitting styles. And all sikkha bhikkhus in The Buddha time > sat, stood, walked and so on. Sitting is a part of practice. S> I think these individuals would least need to `sit in order to practice'= and instead would `practice no matter what they did'. But as I expressed above, I think `sitting' was their normal and natural activity. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Htoo: > >But clinging to formal practice without full understanding of > >implication may sound like rituals as Sujin said. > > Sukin: > > This is obvious, but I think any idea of `doing' which disregards in > principle, that there is a dhamma arising "NOW" to be known, is > silabattaparamasa. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > Could you please explain silabattaparamasa? S> This is the dictionary meaning: >>sílabbata-parámása and -upádána: 'attachment (or clinging) to mere rules and ritual', is the 3rd of the 10 fetters (samyojana, q.v.), and one = of the 4 kinds of clinging (upádána, q.v.). It disappears on attaining to Stream-entry (sotápatti). For definition, s. upádána.<< There is the idea that one's present level of sati and panna is too weak to penetrate realties, so one has to perform some `practice' to develop more of this. Usually this is referred to developing concentration, with the idea that a concentrated mind is better able to penetrate realities. But this I believe is wrong view, and encourages attachment. This `practice' is not the same as patipatti and has no causal connection with pariyatti. The latter will point to the reality of the moment, not away from it. If in the moment there is no panna and the `idea of doing something', this *must* be known as conditioned. Otherwise, one will believe in the conclusion and be lead by lobha and wrong view. And this is the path leading to silabbataparamasa. Also there may be the idea of `trying' to experience hardness, seeing, hearing and so on. In this case, it is a failure to see that `self' will fi= nd only its projections, the `concept' of hardness and so on, even though this is very quickly interspersed with any direct contact with the sense objects. There is atta sanna in connection with this kind of awareness and no accompanying understanding of conditionality. This too is silabbataparamasa. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Metta, Sukin. 36781 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 0:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: Theory and Practice _Sukin & Htoo Hi Herman, > Sorry to butt in. The H is for Herman, not Htoo :-) > ============== Sukin: I like your butting in, ;-) only do expect some delay in responding. --------------------------------------------- > S > Firstly, there is no control as to what concepts will be the object > of citta at the moment. > > ============== > > H > I disagree if you are making a statement of fact. Sukin: Please note, I said "at the moment", meaning at this moment. -------------------------------------- > H> The Buddha described and repeated a hundred times over what states you will experience if you ever proceed to following his recommendations re > jhana. Sukin: Are you mistaking conditionality for `control'? Are you identifying an idea of `self' deciding to do something and then going about doing it with control? Is there any satipatthana in the moment to determine which dhamma has indeed arisen in connection with such an idea and motivated any consequent action? Vipassana has absolutely *no* connection with jhana practice. The objects of samatha meditation including breath, which existed before Buddha realized about conditionality and anatta, lead to totally different goals than satipatthana. In the end, all practitioners of jhana, no matter which object they choose, what will determine if they will reach vipassana is whether they will `insight' the present arisen dhamma, in this case, jhana cittas. So in fact in this respect, a jhana adept is in exactly the same position as the dry insight practitioner, both must have enough of the other kind of panna, namely vipassana in order to reach enlightenment. ------------------------------------------ > H> It is precisely because of conditionality that these same states arise > when you follow in his steps. Time and again. Without fail. Sukin: What constitutes the "you" here? Is there not just `conditions'? But though you may agree that it is all conditions, what you are saying here is that the particular condition labeled `jhana practice' is what leads to vipassana. Is this right? If this is what you think, then you are wrong! --------------------------------------------- > H>It may be worthwhile to examine the aversion of the c word (control)? Sukin: Why do you assume `aversion'? > ================ > Sukin: > I don't think there can be any control as to what will be the object of > citta and whether there will be right or wrong view with regard to it. > Actually, I have reservation with regard to any `idealistic' attitude > about developing Mahasatipatthana even in daily life. I feel this way > because it can condition the idea of `self' and `control'. In a day if > there is no satipatthana at all, it is good to know this, better than > then following some practice and risk having a false idea of achievement > and progress. > > ================ > > H > Are you unaware, even with hindsight, that your daily life is full > of activity in which you are creating and maintaining your self-belief > with vigour and determination? And this is preferable to any sort of > activity, regardless of how highly praised by the Buddha, because a self > might be hiding in it? > > I really have to laugh, Sukin. You are a funny fellow :-) > Sukin: So? There is plenty idea of self all day and very little sati of any level. There is the illusion of control precisely because there is no satipatthana. Often this involves an identification of `self' as a concept engaging in `activities' (concepts) in time (more concept) and no awareness of not only paramattha dhammas, but even ignoring other possible interpretations of `self doing something'. But do I prefer this? But you are right; lobha does lead the way all day, against one's better judgement. So is there control? > =============== > H > The truth is you don't *have to* do anything. But you do lots of > things, because you want to. And that's fine by me. But please, don't > control the car while driving, it could condition the idea of self :-) Sukin: Controlling the car with a clear understanding (not that I have ever had any) about realties and concepts is not the same as controlling one's behavior with the idea that correspondingly some "dhammas" can be made to arise or go away at will. --------------------------------- > Kind regards and thanks for the laugh :-) > > Herman Sukin: Hopefully not too many lobha cittas were involved. ;-) Metta, Sukin. 36782 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the age of wisdom Dear Connie & Nina, Thanks for posting this. Connie, enjoy the rest of your 'understanding decade';-). --- connieparker wrote: > In the discussion on 'the material septad', ch. XX, > 50: 2.(b) Having attributed the three characteristics according to > 'disappearance of what grows old in each stage' thus by means of the > first > stage, etc., he again attributes the three characteristics according to > > 'disappearance of what grows old in each stage' by means of the > following > ten decades: the tender decade, the sport decade, the beauty decade, the > > strength decade, the understanding decade, the decline decade, the > stooping decade, the bent decade, the dotage decade and the prone > decade. ... S: I'm glad that Nina encouraged us to read it not too literally, seeing as I'm in decline and Jon's close to stooping;-) 'Never too late to develop understanding' and what an inspiration she, K.Sujin and other friends in later decades are. Nina, I laughed about your father at over 100 and still not reclining. Good for him. For my mother's birthday, I offered her a shawl of various colours and she said 'definitely not black, that's for old ladies'. She declined a bed jacket or shawl for the same reason. I hope Dighanakka's reading our non-literal interpretations here;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 36783 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Flip-flopping Hi Matt, Some of your posts on seeing and visible object have been the best ever on this topic imho. This was just a taste of it (36604): --- matt roke wrote: > Matt> Whether we are in a place where things are clearly discernible, > only > slightly discernible or not discernible at all, the only realities are > seeing > and visible object. *Light*, *void of light* and *darkness*, along with > black > and colours, are concepts experienced in the mind door. > ======================= S: Another one I really liked was at the end (36383): Matt: 'Whether we are in a place where things are clearly discernable, only slightly discernable or not discernable at all, the only realities are seeing and visible object.' It's very seldom for someone to come along here with this appreciation of the 'essence' of abhidhamma at the present moment. Actually, the only comment you've made on DSG which I've seriously questioned and am still puzzled by (in the light of all these other fine posts) is the one in (35790) to Ken H when we were away. I think he responded with some surprise too, but I forget how it went. You wrote: M: 'My understanding is that citta and its accompanying cetasikas experience a reality. That concept (thought) is made up of many cittas. And that citta is said to experience a concept because the reality of each citta that makes up the concept is experienced.' S: This para makes no sense to me. Would you kindly elaborate, perhaps using your own example of seeing and visible object and perhaps a later concept of a visible object? Sorry, to ambush an old post like this. As others will tell you, it's a 'bad' habit of mine. Metta, Sarah ======= 36784 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is Meditation ? Hi Ken O (& Nori), As you know, I’m always glad to see you around....., You wrote to Nori (I think it was), --- Ken O wrote: N:> > > His definition of meditation is partly this: > > > A sustained and directed investigation into a chosen aspect of > > our > > > nature and reality. > > > This, I believe, includes processes of directed thought and > > > reflection (i.e. investigation and evaluation), in addition to > > direct observation. .... K: > Isn't this what we do in our everyday waking moments :) Ah so hard > to notice, it just passes us moment by moment and yet we have many > people keep telling us that we need to sit in one corner to "think" > Sometimes I wonder, when we first awake, isn't thought already arise. > Do we need to sit and think to think :). Thinking is only valid in > the every moment of our life and not waiting in one corner to > reinforce the believe that 'I' must do something. When there is an > I, then thinking is already lost, panna is already lost bc we are > still attached to the idea of I doing :) and believing that it takes > an 'I' to eradicate an 'I'. Conditions arise without 'I' :). So > lets be happy with thinking now and not later. Cheers ... S: Your posts always make me smile. (RobM would approve;-)). ‘Do we need to sit and think to think :)’. Of course, mostly we’re talking about awareness or understanding, but the same comments apply imho of course!! I also agreed with your comments on another thread -- the man on the operating table thread. It’s relevant to Nori’s phantom limbs thread too, so I’ll repeat part of it. You wrote: K: ‘Even our bodily dont feel pain does not meant our mind does not feel it because latencies are always there. Just like a person who lost their arms always have the problem forgetting the lost arms. Just like when we know we have a terminal illness, latencies will always influence us on loss, fear, sadness even before we actually die. How do we end up like this bc of latencies and the three roots.’ RobK also gave a comment of Ven Nyanaponika’s referring to examples of pain whilst under anaesthetic (thx Ro!). Like you (Ken O) said, unpleasant bodily feeling can only arise with body consciousness. Even when we say there’s no body consciousness (such as under an anaesthetic), there is bound to be some, but usually no knowledge of it or very slight I think. As Nori also indicated in the scientific/psychological tests too, the anticipation and mental aversion and unpleasant feeling greatly affect and magnify the perceived experience of painful feelings too. Anyway, this was the good point you already made. Look forward to more of your answers to any qus that catch your interest, Ken O. Maybe you can help Nori with his qus in post (36601) on the Sutta Nipata verses as I’m out of time now. Metta, Sarah p.s Are you still reading the comy to Ab.Sangaha? Any passages you find particularly helpful? ====== 36785 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] 21 questions about Buddhism Dear Catalin, --- Catalin wrote: > All answers I have received on this list and other lists where very > helpful. Right now I am studying the materials from the sites some > pointed at and then I will study the writings from the Pali Canon and > other writings considered important by various schools. > I am also trying to meditate which is not very easy for me as a > beginner. > I am still receiving answers on these and other lists. ... S: Please ask more questions as you study and meditate. You mentioned you don't have a community around you, so make the most of the internet support groups like DSG! I thought RobM and Htoo both gave very detailed, kind and helpful responses to all your difficult questions. We'd all be glad to hear any of your comments on their replies. I think Htoo also asked for a little more clarification if you feel able to give it. .... > I live in Romania in the city of Ploiesti. The informations I have found <....> but none of them existing in my > city and most of them not even close. .... S: I'm very interested to hear you live in Romania. Thx for mentioning it. I had a long chat an an airport earlier this year with a young lady heading home to Romania and I told her about the Romanina students I used to teach in Australia. Many people on this list also just rely on the internet for group support. .... > I am mostly interested in Theravada Buddhism but also teachings from > other schools (like Zen and Tendai and some schools from China) seem > interesting. > If anyone in here knows more about Buddhism in Romania , please let me > know. .... S: I can't help here. Hope you can share more of your interest and reflections on Theravada Buddhism particularly with us here. Metta, Sarah ===== 36786 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:17am Subject: Reincarnation, Hell, Heaven and Nibbana Dear Dhamma Friends, There are hard-to-prove things in this world on this earth and they happen frequently in some areas. They are .. Reincarnation, Hell, Heaven and Nibbana. Only The Buddha's Abhidhamma will be able to explain all these hard- to-proof truths and all truths such as samuti sacca or conventional truth, paramattha sacca or ultimate truths, and Noble Truths or the truth realised by Noble Ariyas. REINCARNATION: Reincarnation is very easy to experience through others if there is no own reincarnation experience. Reincarnation is a bit strange thing as it is not normal from scientific concepts. It is connection of past memories and the present life memories. Science will only explain the current life physical matters only. Not beyond that. For example, they would say that there are stored memories in the brain of the current life. If they are destroyed by disease like Alzeimer's Disease or strokes or other dementia, memories will be lost. But knowledge of unrelated events in a person who has never learns these in this life cannot be explained by scientific means. I think, in this group triplegem, I wrote on some evidence of recarnation. I have a close friend and a cousin. Both are reincarnated people. One remembers his past life family. His past-life-wife is as old as his mother and the place where she lives is far away and unrelated. But he went there and explain everything. With a good will he has a good contact with that old lady and supports her. My cousin was born with a congenital wound or sinus with discharge. This was to be treated seriously. And finally skin transplantation had to be done and finally it healed. That was when he was young. When he became a toddler whenever a lady passed in front of his house, he stopped his playing and called out that lady as 'Mom'. But the lady did not recognise the voice. This happened many times and finally the lady enquired about the matter. He told her that he had been her son in his past life. He was killed by a murderer. This was true and the killer was free from any harm and free from any punishment as no one knew his killing but only the dead body with wound of a sharp object at the neck. The boy could tell who killed, what weapon the killer used, the time of killing and associated or accompanying people who involve in the scene. Because of this the killer was caught and executed. Still there are many other real life stories and all are genuine. Regarding heaven, Buddhism does not say heaven. Instead The Buddha preached that there are separate 31 planes of existence. What we all know is our physical world. There are different lives on this earth. All human beings are in manussa bhumi or human realm. Animals are easy to see and very common. But they are in a separate real called 'tiricchana bhumi'. APAYA BHUMIS AND HELL: This word 'tiricchana' was preached by The Buddha. Tiricchana composes 'ti' and 'chanda'. They have 3 desires. They will sleep, will eat, and will have sex. There is hardly any wholesome actions in that realm. Peta bhumi or the plane of hungry ghost and asurakaya bhumi are another 2 realms which are apaya bhumis or woeful planes of existence. There are real life events who experienced ghosts. In some areas there are festival that feeds the ghosts who are the past parents or relatives of unidentified people of current world. Asurakaya is also a separate bhumi or separate plane of existence. There are people who experienced such experience with asurakaya with the current life body and mind. One of my close friend had been to HELL with the current body and mind. He a relative rather than friend but he is about 3rd or 4th cousin. He used to abuse Buddhist monks. Whenever monks stood in front of his house he would abuse with words and never offer anything. The words were so nasty that they should not appear on this forum. He did this for some time. Once he was nowhere. He was a drinker. So no one recognised his lost. Here you may argue that this may well be hallucination. But he reappeared in his house and shouting in the voice of 'calling for help'. At that time he was not insane. He was mentally sound. He shouted 'Help me acariyas, I am extremely frightened. I will never abuse again. I will not drink again and I will do wholesome things. Help me out'. He stops drinking and stops abusing monks. Instead he offers regular alm food to monks, worship them and help them whenever they need anything like medicine, cloth, books etc etc. When he was asked, he well described the HELL. He was in HELL with the current body while he was lost from the human world. As far as people knew there was no trace of him while he was not in his home that is total lost from the scene. He experienced HELL and he is no more his 'past him' who abuse monks. HEAVEN: Heaven has been talked above. Buddhism does not have heaven. Instead The Buddha preached there are 31 planes of existence. Heaven as non- Buddhists think may be Deva realms. Devas sometimes do have communication with worldly people. But Brahmas hardly do any communication. Brahmas only have eyes and ears as form. They only come to human realm for the reason to worship The Buddha and to listen The Buddha's teachings. The reason why they have eyes and ears is this that is to experience The Buddha's Dhamma. They do not have any sensuous pleasure. So heavenly beings that are in contact with people are only Devas. Even among Devas, higher orders do not come to human realms unless there is a strong reason. Most Devas that are in contact with people are from the lowest order that is 'Catumaharaja Bhumi'. Catu means four and maharaja means great king. Indra or Sakka is the king of Deva world and he also sometimes come to human realm. But mostly when there is a Sammasambuddha. There are some monks who had been to Deva realms with current body and mind that is with this current life. These may sound hard-to- prove but they do exist. The Buddha preached their existence. NIBBANA: This is also hard to understand and one of hard-to-prove thing especially for non-Buddhists and those who are just beginners. But there are people who really experienced NIBBANA with this current body and mind that is in this life. For this the story of 'The turtle and the fish' will have to retell. But there do exist those who experience NIBBANA. NIBBANA is not a sight. It is not a sound. It is not a smell. It is not a taste. It cannot be touched. But it exists and it is one of 4 ultimate realities or one of 4 ultimate truths May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36787 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Toll Booth Operators and the Brahmaviharas Hi Phil, A few of your own posts addressed your own questions and dilemmas better than anything I could have said. For example, to Andrew in (36648), you wrote on metta: --- plnao wrote: >I would go for walks in the > local > park and kind of beam metta around > me. I just can't see that being right practice. Later, when better > understanding (in my opinion) arose, I would go > for walks, and be aware of aversion arising, say because of a man > spitting, > and then metta for this and mudita for > that and more metta and karuna and a lot of indifferent stretches in > between. Aware of these moments coming and > going in an unconntrolled way. And this helps me to cultivate wisdom > that > will eradicate hindrances, starting with the > coarse ones, and this will allow metta to flow more freely without the > need > to generate it at home. ... S: As you indicate, wisdom is the key here. Your comments on the extract from ‘Deeds of Merit’ (36644) were spot on too. ‘wholesome and unwholesome cittas in quick succession’. Btw, I have a friend I practise yoga with. She used to be a well-known actress and ballerina and always has a lovely smile, even when doing extreme back-bends which I know must entail a fair amount of painful feeling. She always looks kind and equanimous, but it’s largely due to her (admirable) training. Another lady in the group never smiles, but I really don’t think we can make too many judgments based on the different tendencies and trainings here. Some cultures stress smiling much more than others. I loved your description of moving into the new home of brahma-viharas and letting them gradually take shape. ‘We come to abide in metta, karuna, mudita and upekkha in line with our progress along the path. the abiding arises. We can’t move in until we are moved in by conditions’. Well put, and as I said, this is the answer to the other points about defilements. Also, you’re right when you refer to the ‘pervading in all directions’ of metta in the light of jhanas. Not something to be done, but a culmination of the development of metta accompanied with a very fine, penetrating understanding of its nature and of the subtlest of defilements which are temporarily suspended at these times. There’s more on this in U.P. under metta from the comy to the Metta Discourse, I think. It refers to the ‘pervading’ whilst in jhana. It’s the culmination of a very highly developed practise of samatha. We can start to just develop a little metta when we have the chance in daily life as you discuss (like when we’re asked to take out the rubbish whilst posting on the list;-)). Anyway, as you know, I also have accumulations to chatter too much.... Metta, Sarah ===== 36788 From: jwromeijn Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:12am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 069 ) Dear Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > We have discussed all 89 states of mind. All 89 cittas have been > touched. When these 89 cittas are understood, learning of mind > phenomena becomes much more easier than without knowledge of these 89 > cittas. Whoever at any time will have a citta. This citta may be one > of these 89 cittas. > > Another reality is cetasikas. There are 52 different cetasikas. > Before going deep into cetasika dhamma, it is good to discuss cittas Because you finished (I think) about 'citta' in the Dhamma Thread and nearly finished your comments on nama about the ebook of RobM, I had the hope you started with the topic 'RUPA'. But I read you continue with Cetasika. Why? Why do you and many scholars of the Abhidhamma do have so little interest in rupa? Is that the idea that 'mind' is higher than 'matter'? In your article about Patthana (found in the 'Files') you once said: "Rupa: This is things in the worlds or in the universe after excluding nama dhamma. It is material things. Some of rupa are substance or materials. Science says many are complex materials, many are compound materials, and some are elements. Element here is being talked on scientific elements like hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, carbon. Ultimate things in physical world from science view are proton, neutron, electron etc. But rupa is more than that." I have some questions to you about 'rupa'. The reason is I want to be a buddhist, accept that the insights of (modern) natural sciences is not important, soteriological seen; but don't accept a unscientific interpretation of the Dhamma. - You said: "Rupa is more than that" Or had we to say: "Rupa is something else than that" ? "Mahabhuta" is many times translated with "(great) elements", that is "fundamentally building blocks". And the four are many times translated with earth, water, heat and air: that are not fundamental building blocks at all, to me that is not a problem because that names are a wrong interpretation, do you agree? - Don't you agree with me that "rupa" should not be translated with "matter" but with "matter as experienced by a human" or with "material qualities" ? This because the BUDDHA WAS SILENT ABOUT PHYSICS and the Abhidhamma should not be seen as a ontology but as a phenomenology, as Ven. Nyanaponika has explained - Don't you agree that nama versus rupa should not be understood as the dichotomy mind-matter in western philosophy (R. Descartes)? - How to combine the idea (of many abhidhammists) that nama is more important than rupa with the teaching of the Middle Way of the Buddha? - Do you think it is fundamentally possible to modernize the list of rupa, still using them as paramatthas? - Nearly all you and others write about Abhidhamma is how it works with a human being. But we should not be anthropocentric. How does nama and rupa and the interaction of them work with an animal? With metta Joop 36789 From: jwromeijn Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:13am Subject: Fare the well, friend Herman ( was Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ???) Dear Phil Thanks for your sincere reaction. Not to continue our discussion for weeks but some feedback: You said: So personally I take the commentaries with the greatest respect, but don't consider them part of the Canon. … I suppose it could be argued that without the commentaries, the Abhidhamma would be impentrable to modern Buddhist, so the commentaries should be considered part and parcel with Abhidhamma. I don't know if that's true. Joop: I agree. When I study the Abhidhammattha Sangaha I hardly read the translation of the pali original but prefer the "guides" of Bhikkhu Bodhi. And that is an example of what I stated in another message some weeks ago: the Commentaries are a screen between the Teachings of the Buddha and a modern man who tries to understand them, we need modern commentaries, with modern metaphores, similes etc. Phil: When I first heard about vibrating bhavanga cittas, and 17 cittas in a process, my rational mind wondered how on earth anyone would know that, and truth be told I thought it sounded a bit silly. Joop: I think this can be combined with modern science how the brain works, so I accept it too and don't call it 'faith' because in this case it doesn't matter me if it had to be taken literal or metaphorical. In other cases it matters to me; my reaction then is not 'faith' or 'disbelief' but an agnostic view as exolained by Stephen Batchelor ('Buddhism without beliefs') Phil: I guess you're not a North American Joop: No, I am from the 'Old Europe' as mr Rumsfield once called it. On one theme you did not react: my statement that I'm more interested in the future than in the past of Theravada, because that's the main reason that I prefer the scond of my constructed 'groups' and not the topi of 'faith' With metta Joop 36790 From: Date: Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner18-Contact / Phassa(d) Hi, Sarah (and Nina) - In a message dated 9/23/04 3:38:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Dear Friends, > > Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch.1, Contact (Phassa)contd] > ***** > We read in the 'Discourse of the Honey-ball' (Middle Length > sayings I, no. 18) that Maha-kaccana explained to the monks concerning > contact: > > -This situation occurs: that when there is eye, your reverences, when > -there is visible object, when there is visual consciousness, one will > -recognise the manifestation of sensory impingement (phassa)... > > When there is the concurrence of the ear, sound and hearing-consciousness, > there is the manifestation of ear-contact. When there is the concurrence > of body-sense, a tangible object such as hardness and the experience of > hardness, there is the manifestation of body-contact. Eye-contact is > different from ear-contact and different from body-contact. At each moment > of citta there is a different phassa which conditions the citta to > experience an object. > > Phassa is not the doorway through which citta experiences an object. > In the case of a sense-door process the rupa which is one of the senses is > doorway and in the case of a mind-door process nama is doorway, namely the > last bhavanga-citta arising before the mind-door adverting-consciousness, > the first citta of the mind-door process (1) > ..... > (1)See Introduction. > ***** > [Contact (Phassa) to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ================================ The foregoing displays, I believe, a subtle difference between Abhidhamma Pitaka and Sutta Pitaka. In the suttas, it is said that sense-door object and (activated/energized/arisen) sense organ serve to condition corresponding sense consciousness, and *the coming together of the three* is contact. But here contact seems to be presented as a subtle, mental, kammic formation - a formation within sankharakkhandha - which *manifests* as that convergence, i.e., which is a needed condition for the convergence of the three. As Nina writes, for example: "When there is the concurrence of body-sense, a tangible object such as hardness and the experience of hardness, there is the manifestation of body-contact." Do you see the difference? In the suttas contact is the convergence, itself - the event of concurrence, whereas in Abhidhamma it is a dhamma that is a condition for that. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 36791 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:19am Subject: Theory and Practice _Sukin & Htoo Dear Sukin, Sarah and All, I hope the discussion 'Theory & Practice_Sukin & Htoo' will be beneficial as to how we should follow the genuine practice. Now I change the original heading with the same heading of this post as if it is a new one. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Dear Htoo, Ongoing discussion: [ Sukin & Htoo ] Sukin: >Sukin: >I will come back to this later in the post. S> My point here is to discuss about what a beginner needs to hear. For someone with good accumulation of panna, reference to bodily postures may condition an awareness of paramattha dhammas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. Through your communication, what I understand that you understand is right. Postures may do as you said. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: However someone who is not firm in pariyatti, this may cause him to think that standing, sitting, moving and so on are `realities' to be observed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I understand. But some develop on their own accord. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: It is so easy for lobha to be conditioned at any point. So I think for someone with still very weak accumulations of panna, mistaking wrong awareness for sati is very likely to happen, and this will = then condition attachment to the practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is a good point. You seem to see very subtle lobha. Good. That is good for you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I think it is very important to study first the Teachings and come to know = exactly what satipatthana means and to question any advice for a practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So say understanding first. Understanding comes from study of The Buddha's Dhamma. You are right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I understand that there are some people who believe that one must start with the above kind of practice, and that later on one then comes to `observe' paramattha dhammas. I think this is wrong. The correct practice must in my opinion, start with correct intellectual understanding. Do you agree with this? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I largely agree. But may I ask you a question? Did Bodhisatta Siddhattha have correct understanding before arising of magga cittas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >I accept that. You mean direct knowledge? S> Yes, patipatti. ----------------------------------------------------------------- >Sukin: >I do believe that you are not boasting, I think that you are very >sincere. But allow me to express my view about the development of >sati and panna. >Htoo: I like these two words. I would say there is no panna without sati. But there are sati without panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: S> One reason I stress these two words is because many people tend to link the development of `concentration' with the development of panna. I think there is no basis for such a connection. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think you are referring to magga panna. But all rupavacara rupa jhanas and arupavacara arupa jhanas do have panna as their accompanying cetasika. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Sukin: >Yes, I do disagree. As I said above, I don't think there can be any >control as to what will be the object of citta and whether there will be right or wrong view with regard to it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: I know that there is no control. Formal practice I mean sitting in usual position of lotus. >I am not sitting in order to 'arise my sati, my panna, my samadhi, my concentration'. But I do sit daily. I discern on what I experienced while I am sitting. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: S> If it is natural for you to sit, I think it is fine. Different people have different reasons for doing things. The Bhikkhus during the Buddha's time......But even they would not `choose' this in preference to any other duty that they may have. I think the example they set is not so that we `imitate' their outward behavior, but to delve into the cause which lead to where they finally arrived. And this is to consider the conditioned realities arising in daily life no matter what our outward circumstance might be, starting first with pariyatti, I think. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo; I have started pariyatti for a long long time. Patipatti follows a bit later. Yes. You are right. Pariyatti first. Without proper understanding there are deep cliff of lobha or attachment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: S> But the tendency to wrong view and attachment is so strong that we have all the time to be reminded about the basics and shown the different manifestations of wrong practice. If we are not in constant touch with the right teachings and be in the company of wise friends sharing our understandings, then I think it is very easy to go wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True, Sukin. Thank you. This is right. Constant touch is essential. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: S> I think these individuals would least need to `sit in order to practice' and instead would `practice no matter what they did'. But as I expressed above, I think `sitting' was their normal and natural activity. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. I meant activity. Yes it is activity. Their sitting is activity. Should other people not do these activities while they are trying to understand The Buddha's Dhamma? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: >Could you please explain silabattaparamasa? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: S> This is the dictionary meaning: > >>sílabbata-parámása and -upádána: 'attachment (or clinging) to mere rules and ritual', is the 3rd of the 10 fetters (samyojana, q.v.), and one = of the 4 kinds of clinging (upádána, q.v.). It disappears on attaining to Stream-entry (sotápatti). For definition, s. upádána.<With Metta, >Htoo Naing > Metta, > Sukin. 36792 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:55am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread ( 069 ) Dear Joop, Thank you very much for your reply. Citta discussion has not finished. Comment on Rob M ebook also has not finished yet. The problem with ebook is that, I could not download it. It may take some time. Below is discussion on what you asked. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: Dear Htoo Naing Because you finished (I think) about 'citta' in the Dhamma Thread and nearly finished your comments on nama about the ebook of RobM, I had the hope you started with the topic 'RUPA'. But I read you continue with Cetasika. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think cetasikas are much much more important. Because kusala, akusala are cetasikas. If cetasikas and their functions are well understood then study of citta will become much more easier. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: Why? Why do you and many scholars of the Abhidhamma do have so little interest in rupa? Is that the idea that 'mind' is higher than 'matter'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Rupa is also needed to be understood. I did not leave its importance. Some people readily see rupa rather than namma. For those sorts of people Ayatanas are taught where 10 ayatanas are all rupa. To understand Ayatana rupas have to be explained. Nothing is higher. What did you mean bt 'mind is higher than matter'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: In your article about Patthana (found in the 'Files') you once said: >>> Htoo's File.."Rupa: This is things in the worlds or in the universe after excluding nama dhamma. It is material things. Some of rupa are substance or materials. Science says many are complex materials, many are compound materials, and some are elements. Element here is being talked on scientific elements like hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, carbon. Ultimate things in physical world from science view are proton, neutron, electron etc. But rupa is more than that." Joop:I have some questions to you about 'rupa'. The reason is I want to be a buddhist, accept that the insights of (modern) natural sciences is not important, soteriological seen; but don't accept a unscientific interpretation of the Dhamma. - You said: "Rupa is more than that" Or had we to say: "Rupa is something else than that" ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Rupas which serve as ayatanas are more than proton, neutron, electron. Rupa is more than that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: "Mahabhuta" is many times translated with "(great) elements", that is "fundamentally building blocks". And the four are many times translated with earth, water, heat and air: that are not fundamental building blocks at all, to me that is not a problem because that names are a wrong interpretation, do you agree? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Earth that you see, water that you see, fire that you see, movement that you see are not 'Mahabhuta'. So they are not building block. These words may be wrong interpretation unless they are said in the specific setting that is not the earth that we can see, not the water that we can see, not the fire that we can see and not the evidence of air that we can see as movement. Yes, I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: - Don't you agree with me that "rupa" should not be translated with "matter" but with "matter as experienced by a human" or with "material qualities" ? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. I do not agree here. We have discussed 'smelled smell and unsmelled smell'. Rupas are rupas and they are real existence. They are not to be confined to anthropocentric. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: This because the BUDDHA WAS SILENT ABOUT PHYSICS and the Abhidhamma should not be seen as a ontology but as a phenomenology, as Ven. Nyanaponika has explained - Don't you agree that nama versus rupa should not be understood as the dichotomy mind-matter in western philosophy (R. Descartes)? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know western philosophy of dichotomy. But mind and matter always work together and they are interdependent except in some circumstances like asannisatta and arupa brahmas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: - How to combine the idea (of many abhidhammists) that nama is more important than rupa with the teaching of the Middle Way of the Buddha? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'More important' from which perspective? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: - Do you think it is fundamentally possible to modernize the list of rupa, still using them as paramatthas? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Rupas are to be experienced and to be known not just to be listed. If experienced, marks on them that is tilakkhana of anicca, dukkha, and anatta will be cognised and finally liberated. Without rupa support, there is no way to be liberated. Rupa is also important. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop: - Nearly all you and others write about Abhidhamma is how it works with a human being. But we should not be anthropocentric. How does nama and rupa and the interaction of them work with an animal? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Abhidhamma have included everything. Upekkha sahagatam akusala vipaka santirana citta is patisandhi citta of animals. This again is also final citta of that life in animals serving as cuti citta. In between as long as they are alive and not on the sense door process, there are santirana cittas arising as bhavanaga cittas. Is this anthropocentric? Abhidhamma is for everyone. Abhidhamma do not have to be adapted for animal lovers and pet lovers. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing > With metta > Joop 36793 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:03am Subject: Re: Fare the well, friend Herman ( was Re: [dsg] "... as parasites a tree." ???) Hi Joop. >On one theme you did not react: my statement that I'm more interested >in the future than in the past of Theravada, because that's the main >reason that I prefer the second of my constructed 'groups' and not the .topic of 'faith' This is another area I can relate to, and it's another reason I would have been in that second of the groups myself some months ago. I live in a non-Theravadin Buddhist country (Japan) and have felt keen interest in participating in some very small way to a revival of what I consider to be the True Dhamma here. (With the exception of Soka Gakai, which may or may not be Buddhist, there is little enthusiasm for Buddhism amoung modern Japanese - it seems to be something that is pulled out and paid for when funerals roll around, and little more than that. My apologies if anyone is offended by that - it's certainly a generalization.) So I have thought about how the Buddhist's teachings could be made accessible to people. That's why I was interested in your comment about "modern metaphors" that you made some weeks ago. Now I have come to feel that the decline of Buddhism is inevitable here, and is happening in a way that was predicted by the Buddha. (Thanks to Robert K for having helped me understand that when we had our talk.) I have become detached from a desire to someday be involved in propogating theravada here in any way, though who knows what conditions may bring along. But when my enthusiasm in that direction was stronger, I often regretted lieteral interpretations of dhamma and was concerned about how unpalatable they would make the Dhamma to contemporary people. Now I am more likely to regret the aversion these contemporary people have to words like "defilement", and observe their unwillingness to tolerate the Buddha's teaching that miserable conditions in this lifetime can be a result of unwholesome deeds in the past, and other tough to take but nevertheless irrefutable (if one goes by the Buddha's teaching) aspects of Dhamma. The future of Theravada? I wouldn't cling to hopes there. Even in Thailand it shows signs of being swamped by fundamentalist Christianity. But I do still hope that I can take some elements of the Buddha's teaching and weave them into children's writing, where I have dormant ambitions. But that won't be Theravada, and it won't have anything to do with real liberation. It will be exploitation of Dhamma in a very indirect way for the temporary sense of well-being of the reader. Real liberation through Dhamma lies in accepting some very uncomfy truths and letting go of notions of self-control that are just too deeply embedded in modern society. It won't happen, methinks. But never say never..... Metta, Phil 36794 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] ‘Cetasikas' study corner18-Contact /Phassa(d) Dear Sarah, It is good to go slow. I would write in small paragraphs rather than long and confusing, idea-losing paragraphs. You will see when I write I just use 4 or 5 sentences for a paragraph. I like the style now you are presenting about Nina's Ceatsikas book. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Cetasikas by Nina van Gorkom. > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch.1, Contact (Phassa)contd] > ***** > We read in the 'Discourse of the Honey-ball' (Middle Length > sayings I, no. 18) that Maha-kaccana explained to the monks concerning > contact: > > -This situation occurs: ......... > (1)See Introduction. > ***** > [Contact (Phassa) to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 36795 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paying respect. Hello Nina, and all > > Yes, Herman, I walk with eyes open through the Gates of > > Abhidhamma and kneel at the feet of my teachers, K Sujin > > and K. Nina. The supreme teacher, the Buddha, is there with them, as he is > > there with you on your Dhamma path. > N: Phil, I pay respect to your kusala citta for your appreciation of the > Dhamma. Ph: Thank you Nina. It's interesting. When I wrote this yesterday, I was in one of my silly, chatty moods and enjoyed writing this in a somewhat tongue in cheek way. And yet, along with that unwholesome mental state, there was wholesome respect as well. And underneath the mock medieval imagery, there was a kind of wholesome resolution or something. There is always a lot going on behind every sentence an unenlightened person says or writes. Thus, this is mutual respect and appreciation because of the Dhamma. > This is a lovely custom in Thailand and very natural. As I mentioned before, > when in India on the last day of each pilgimage, we are all sitting on the > ground, and then we kneel and pay respect to each other for all the kusala > that people performed during the trip. We do not think of persons, we think > of the kusala citta. Ph: I wonder if conditions will arise that lead me to do something like that before and after I read and write messages at DSG. Now there is not enough awareness of respect for everyone here (including the people I can't see Dhamma eye to Dhamma eye with) and gratitude. Well, it does arise on occasion. Better than never. > People who do not know you and who, being not familiar with Asian customs, > read your post, may misunderstand you, thinking that you are glorifying > persons, but I know you don't. It is the Dhamma that counts, not the persons > by means of whom you come into contact with the Dhamma. Ph: I think so too. Thus I am sometimes uncomfortable with the way dana is practiced towards clergy in Asia. There is a sense that they are more worth of Dana by the virtue of their status - there are those teachings about the value of dana depending on the value of the person who receives it. If I gave K Sujin a loaf of my delicious banana bread would it have more dana merit than if I gave it to my foul-mouthed co-worker Roger? Technically speaking it would. But if a person like yourself takes the Buddha's teaching and passes it on to her readers in a way that gives at least right intellectual understanding as well as fueling enthusiasm that might lead to further understanding in practice, well, there is respect for the person and the hard work that went into the books. Yes, that hard work was Dhamma, so it is Dhamma we are talking about, but in a conventional sense we should acknowlege the person. >By the way, one > correction, I am not a Dhamma teacher. Ph: But if a lot of people learn from you, doesn't that make you a teacher? Is there a certain formal procedure in becoming a Dhamma teacher that you haven't taken? Since I haven't had a chance to deal directly with K Sujin there is a tendency - to be honest- to think of you as my teacher rather than her. That is why I am making a point to read K Sujin's books and phrases to remind myself that without her you wouldn't have the insight that you do. Have I fallen into glorifying people again? It is all Dhamma. > I like to pay respect to anybody on this list who helps me to consider a > little more and understand a little more the Dhamma. Some with their > pertinent questions, others with a remark here and there, although they may > not even realize how they have helped me. And I know very little about some > of them, except their posts. I will not mention names, that is not > necessary. With appreciation and gratefulness to all, > Nina. Metta, Phil p.s thanks also for all feedback in other threads that i haven't responded too. 36796 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:32am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 069 ) & Explanation Dear Dhamma Friends, This is to support Dhamma Thread. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I think citta does not need any more explanation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Another reality is cetasikas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Cetasika also does not need to explain more. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > It is said that 'itthamekuuna navuti pabhedam pana maanasam. Ekaviisa satamvaatha, vibhajanti vicakkhanaa'. Those who are wise also critically count cittas as 121 cittas ( eka visa satam_1, 20, 100 = 121 cittas in total ). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Etha/ ittha means 'these' 'such things'. Ekuuna is made up of 'eka' and 'uuna'. Eka is 'one' and 'uuna' means reduction or deduction. Ekuuna means 'deduction of one'. Nava is 'nine'. Navuti means 'ninety'. Ekuuna navuti means 1-reducing-90. That means 89. This is 89 cittas in total. Pabhedam means 'detailing'. In the spread form. Maanasam means 'citta'. Eka = 1, viisa = 20, satam = 100. So there are 121 cittas in total. Vaatha means 'in the other way'. Vicakkhana means 'the wise'. Vibhajanti means 'criticise', study, consider. There are 89 cittas and they are also learned as 121 cittas in the other way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > There are cittas which are kamavacaras, which are rupavacaras, and > which are arupavacaras. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kamaavacara = dhamma related to kama bhumis. Kama here means 5 senses and related 6th sense. Avacara means 'frequently arising'. Kamavacara means frequently arising in kama bhumi. Kamaavacara cittas are most or almost all of the cittas that arise in kama bhumis. There are 4 apaya kama bhumis, 1 manussa bhumi or human realm, 6 deva bhumis. Kamaavacara cittas can also arise in rupa bhumis and arupa bhumis. Rupaavacara = Rupa + avacara. The same as kamaavacara. Rupa here means rupa brahma bhumis. Not rupa of rupa dhamma. Arupavacara = Arupa + avacara. Arupa here means arupa brahmas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Just before magga cittas arise, there always arise kamavacara mahakusala cittas namely parikamma, upacara, and anuloma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Magga = path. Here it is the Path to Nibbana. Magga cittas are path- consciousness seeing nibbana as their object. They are lokuttara cittas. Loka means kama loka, rupa loka, and arupa loka that is kama bhumis, rupa bhumis, arupa bhumis. Uttara means noble, superior, 'beyond' loka. Lokuttara means 'not related to lokas' and it means ' superior to loka' 'beyond lokas'. Maha = great, kusala = wholesome Parikamma = preparatory Upacara = proximity Anuloma = suitability, in straight forward order Parikamma prepares. Upacara is like a crown-prince. He has a deputy power. It is close to higher citta. So it is said proximity consciousness. Anuloma negotiates. It adjusts with lower cittas and next arising higher cittas. It also means advancing because it arises in straight forward order. As soon as anuloma arises, citta will not go back. Instead it steps forward to higher stage. Before arising of anuloma citta, all vipassana cittas can go back to non-vipassana cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Those who do not attain jhanas when they are right and fully > perfected for magga cittas to arise, the series that has been > described in the previous posts arise. Magga and phala cittas arise > in this way, there will be 8 total lokuttara cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jhana are dhammas that destroy hindrances. Phala are fruit and they are fruition-consciousness. That means they are the resultant consciousness due to their counterpart magga cittas or path-consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > But those who attain 8 jhanas that is all 5 rupa jhanas and all 4 > rupa jhanas, if thier magga cittas arise in the vicinity of these > jhanas, these lokuttara cittas are counted as lokuttara jhana cittas. > There are 5 rupa jhanas as there are 5 total jhana factors. All arupa > jhanas have ekaggata jhana factor and upekkha vedana as in case of > 5th rupa jhana. So all arupa jhanas can be counted as 5th jhana > because they do have jhana factors of the 5th jhana. > > When in the 1st jhana, the object is the object of jhana. It is not a > paramattha dhamma. If object is not paramattha dhamma, there is no > reason to discern anicca, dukkha, anatta in that object which > actually do not exist. But magga citta can arise in the vicinity of > jhana cittas and these magga cittas do have the same cetasikas that > jhana cittas have. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I think all these are clear and not need to explain. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > The practitioner starts with paikamma bhavana and then moves up to > upacara bhavana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhavana is mental cultivation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Unlike those without jhanas, these practitioners who > attain jhanas will rise up to appana bhavana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Appana = close look. So close that looker and lookee fuse. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >This jhana appana > bhavana is rupavacara rupa jhana citta and when in 1st jhana, all > arising jhana cittas one after another are absorbed into the jhana > object. At a time, as their predetermined period has lapsed they > emerge from their 1st jhana and then they do paccavakkhana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Paccavakkhana is to characterise, to scrutinise, to check, to examine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >At that time and in those vithi vara, cittas are not rupavacara > cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Vithi means 'serial and in the right order'. There is a highway road joining two cities. In between are many towns and villages. The road is a single and the only road. If the road is followed the towns and villages appear serially and no town missed or no village missed out. Like this panca dvara vithi cittas arise in exact manner depending on their vara. Vara = turn, the turn If there are 10 people coming one after another, if one has gone, next coming man is 2nd. Next coming is 3rd. The 4th turn is for the 4th man. The 5th turn is for the 5th man etc etc. In vara there are different vara. Some have full series of vithi cittas, some do not have tadarammana cittas, some do not have javana cittas and so on. This is about vara. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Instead they all are kamavacara mahakusala tihetuka cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tihetuka = Ti + Hetuka , ti = 3, hetu means root. hetu are root causes of nama dhamma. They are lobha or attachment, dosa or aversion, moha or delusion, alobha or dana or non-attachment, adosa or non-aversion, amoha or non-delusion or panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > They see paramattha dhamma and they see the marks on paramattha > dhamma and realise that these paramattha dhamma are all impermanent, > suffering, and not self. After paccavakkhana, these vithi vara arise > and this is followed by bhavanga cittas. Bhavangas again stop and > there arise manodvara avajjana citta arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhavanga = bhava + anga. Bhava is life. Anga is part. Mano is mind, dvara means door. Avajjana means 'turn the attention to', 'contemplate on'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > After that parikamma kamavacara mahakusala citta arises. The object > is jhana citta and its cetasikas and their marks. This high direct > knowledge is then transferred to next citta called upacara kamavacara > mahakusala citta. This gives its object to anuloma kamavacara > mahakusala citta. These 3 cittas, parikamma, upacara, anuloma cittas > do have the same jhana cetasikas as their preceeding jhana cittas. In > the vicinity of jhana cittas these vithi varas arise and after > gotrabhu citta, 'vitakka, vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam > sotapatti magga pathamajjhana lokuttara kusala citta' arises. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekaggata are cetasikas and they will be explained in cetasika portion. Sahitam means 'saha' that is along with, together with, mixed with, composed in. These 5 cetasika and their citta are inseparable. They are mixed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This is 82nd if cittas are counted as 121 cittas. But to avoid > confusion, 40 lokuttara cittas will not be numbered again. Lokuttara > cittas are all appana samadhi cittas....... magga nana and phala nana. Jhana here is not rupavacara rupa jhanas or arupavacara arupa jhanas but they all are lokuttara appana jhana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I think all other words have been explained. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36797 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:15am Subject: Dhamma Thread ( 070 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, When lokuttara cittas arise in the vicinity of rupavacara jhanas or arupavacara jhana, they are referred to as lokuttara jhana cittas. Here we need to be clear that all magga cittas and phala cittas whether they arise in the vicinity of kamavacara mahakusala tihetuka cittas or in the vicinity of rupavacara rupakusala tihetuka cittas or arupavacara arupakusala tihetuka citta, they all are lokuttara cittas. All these lokuttara cittas have appana samadhi. Samadhi are a collection of ekaggata cetasikas that successively arise with successively arising cittas. If the object is a single object, then it is more concentrated. In jhanas there is a single object that is the object for jhana. In maggas, there is only a single object. It is nibbana. By the same token, all phala cittas have a single object and it is nibbana. In kamavacara cittas, if there is a single object and each arising citta takes that single object, it is said to be well concentrated. If objects are changing like 'thinking on a tree, then think about a river, then think about a train, then about a child, then about a book, etc etc, then this is quite evident that how scatter cittas are and how upset cittas are and they are not concentrated. All lokuttara cittas are concentrated well. The concentration in them is samma-samadhi of Noble Eightfold Path and this is no doubt. Samma means good, right, wholesome. All good concentration may be assumed as samma-samadhi. That is samadhi which are not miccha- samadhi are samma-samadhi. But if the accompanying citta is not of one of 8 lokuttara citta, then it nis not of the samma-samadhi of Noble Eightfold Path. This samadhi is called lokuttara samadhi. There are lokiya samadhi. They may be samma-samadhi if they are not miccha-samadhi. If someone says ''only jhana cittas are samma-samadhi'', I have no reason to deny them. But this samadhi is lokiya samadhi. Not of lokuttara samadhi, which again is samma-samadhi of Noble Eightfold Path. If they think that 'only jhanas are samma-samadhi and without jhanas magga and phala cannot be obtained', they can practise their way there and I have no right to stop anyone. Those who did not have any rupavacara rupa jhanas and arupavacara arupa jhanas once developed the highest nana and attained magga nana, then magga cittas and phala cittas arose in them are all 8 pure lokuttara cittas. These 8 cittas have been discussed in the previous posts. When these 8 lokuttara cittas arise in the vicinity of rupavacara rupa jhanas or arupavacara arupa jhanas, they do have the same character that is the same amount of cetasikas that rupavacara jhanas and arupavacara jhanas have. The only difference is that lokuttara jhana cittas all look at nibbana instead of jhana objects. There is no citta that takes 2 objects at the same moment or at the same cittakkhana. They are looking at nibbana, they are taking nibbana as their object. So they are lokuttara cittas. On the other hand, they arise in the vicinity of rupavacara jhanas or arupavacara jhanas. So they do have the same cetasikas as rupavacara jhanas or arupavacara jhanas. As there are 5 jhanas, then there are 40 lokuttara jhana cittas. They are 1. vitakka, vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam sotapatti magga pathamajjhana lokuttara kusala citta 2. vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam sotapatti magga dutiyajjhana lokuttara kusala citta 3. piti, sukhekaggata sahitam sotapatti magga tatiyajjhana lokuttara kusala citta 4. sukhekaggata sahitam sotapatti magga catutthajjhana lokuttara kusala citta 5. upekkhekaggata sahitam sotapatti magga pancamajjhana lokuttara kusala citta 6. vitakka, vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam sotapatti phala pathamajjhana lokuttara vipaka citta 7. vicara, piti, sukhekaggata sahitam sotapatti phala dutiyajjhana lokuttara vipaka citta 8. piti, sukhekaggata sahitam sotapatti phala tatiyajjhana lokuttara vipaka citta 9. sukhekaggata sahitam sotapatti phala catutthajjhana lokuttara vipaka citta 10.upekkhekaggata sahitam sotapatti phala pancamajjhana lokuttara vipaka citta. 11 to 20 are sakadagami, 21 to 30 are anagami, and 31 to 40 are arahatta. So there will be in total 40 lokuttara jhana cittas. Their object is nibbana and not object of rupa jhana or arupa jhana. They are appana citta because they have appana samadhi. They all are absorbed into the object nibbana. Not only these 40 lokuttara jhana cittas are absorbed into the object nibbana, magga and phala cittas which arise without rupavacara jhanas or arupavacara jhanas are also appana cittas. They that is 8 lokuttara cittas all have appana samadhi. They can also be called as jhana. That is why dhammapada says 'without jhana, no panna and without panna, no jhana'. This referred to lokuttara cittas. This does not refer to rupavacara rupa jhana cittas nor arupavacara arupa jhana cittas. I do not say they are not good. They all are good and they are very powerful to suppress all kilesas and kilesa cannot arise in the presence of these 8 jhanas. But not all those who attain 8 jhanas are arahats or anagams or sakadagams or sotapams but puthujana can attain all 8 jhanas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS:Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 36798 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:17am Subject: Self control for crude defilements? (was Re: [dsg] most moving Buddha quote9 Hi Sarah > Phil, I also wished to add that I think it's natural that when we hear, > consider and begin to appreciate the great value of the teachings on > anatta, that we continue to look for loop-holes such as looking to perform > good deeds which will bring good results or try to organise our lives in a > way to avoid excesses with a deep-rooted idea that we really do have some > control and so on. In discussions on performing merit including dana, as > we've both discussed, the motives and cittas tend to be very mixed. When > we're so concerned to be the one performing dana, at times isn't this a > clinging to self, clinging to being the kind person who receives good > results? I was thinking about this today. I am definitely moving closer to understanding the futility of thinking one has control in eradicating defilements, but I am still thinking about whether there is a place for self-control and will power, early on. I used internet pornography, say - what an unthinkable example, but let's use it! ;) To rid myself of this, I could allow panna to gradually show me the disadvantages of such akusala. That could take a long time. Would take a long time. Or I could cling to a self-image of a man who has taken great steps to clean himself of pronography. Take encouragement from this self-image, though it is a self-image, and wrong view. It could be effective dealing with a crude - just about as crude as they come - defilement like pornography. There are suttas that use self-images in this way to encourage monks. Somewhere in AN there is a sutta that compares monks resisting the attractions of women to warriors, and the commentary I read said that this sort of heroic imagery helped them to overcome the temptations. This use of self-imagery in similes. So if I have a self-image of being virtuous in overcoming a very unwholesome habit, it seems similar to the warrior monks resisting babes in that AN sutta. (I trust you know the one I'm referring to - if not, I could try to track it down.) So I think this could help at the level of crude defilements that have an expression in very outstandingly bad behaviour. But it wouldn't do any good for subtler defilements, such as joining in on salcoius talk with co-workers, or even subtler ones than that, all the salacious thoughts that pop up beyond my control. Would resorting to self-image in an aware way with respect to crude defilements deepen self-view and make it more likely to interfere in a insiduous way in other subtler areas? I can't say. And I don't even know for sure if I still resort to this sort of thing. I think I don't these days. It could be that coming across Abhidhamma has liberated me from that. Or it could be something I'll do again. I guess it's still that idea of employing self to do the work that will lead to self losing its job, as I posted some months ago. This is the sort of thing I'm sure to understand much more clearly in a few years time, so no need to continue discussing it now, unless you'd really like to. > > Phil, back to your post #36465. I disagree with the comments which suggest > there cannot be 'even the smallest steps' in the development of wisdom > whilst 'very crude defilements' are still apparent. Yes, you're right. this was wrong. > > When you say 'we have to clean out the gross matter first' and that you > think 'practices that might seem self-driven on the surface can do that' > (such as the fabric-softening ones), I think this is an example of looking > for one of those loop-holes or a lack of confidence in the real power of > panna and sati to perform their tasks. Or maybe impatience, knowing how gradual panna is. "Lack of confidence in the real power of panna and sati to perform their tasks." That's a good line, Sarah, I like that. It's back to the idea of a 'self' > doing a clean-up first, ready for some anatta understanding when the place > has been tidied up, isn't it? We follow our own ways, whether > fabric-softening ones or any other kinds, but we need to remember that any > of these ways are conditioned and anatta. Even when we think 'we have to > clean out....first', it's conditioned thinking that thinks like this > which can be known when it arises. Good reminder. Thanks. That last sentence. > > As you found, we can learn good lessons from shocking displays of kilesa > at work and it's helpful to be reminded again of what beginners we are. > It's panna with accompanying sobhana cetasikas like hiri and ottappa that > will know these states for what they are when they appear. Yes. Hiri and ottapa. That's what they're there for. I've been meaning to ask Rob M about the way he described ottappa in his wholesome states post. (It's great. One of those things I like to stick on a wall somewhere to see quite often.) He describes ottapa related to respect for others (bhikkhu Bodhi describeds it that way as welll) and he refers to the golden rule. I have a little bit harsher understanding of it as being a fear of getting burned by the kamma of one's deeds. That understanding probably comes from the description I read somewhere in a commentary - I can't remember where - of hiri being the thing that stops us from grabbing the excrement covered end of a pole and ottapa being the thing that stops us from grabbing the red hot end. Truly, Phil, I > certainly speak for myself here as well when it comes to experience of > seeing lots of rot under the mildest of provocations. However, I also have > a lot of confidence that the house only begins to really come clean with > the development of vipassana. Just one moment of wisdom (at even a > beginning level) is like a clean sweep. Anything else is a temporary, > surface spot-clean in comparison. Nice. Another good line! "Just one moment of wisdom is like a clean sweep." Nina often mentions in her books about the way we want big results and fail to appreciate the value of one moment of mindfulness. Thanks for your thoughtful comments and all your support, Sarah. Metta, Phil 36799 From: plnao Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:45am Subject: Deeds of Merit - quality of gift effects result for the giver! Hello all More from "Deeds of Merit" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket, available at http://www.zolag.co.uk/meri1.html S. : In the case of someone who gives something which is less valuable or less beautiful than what he possesses or uses himself, there is generosity of a slave (dasa daana). The person who gives is a slave of attachment. He is not yet able to give things away which are just as good as or more excellent than the things he has himself.... he still clings to his possessions. When he receives the result of his deed by way of the experience of an object through eyes, ears, nose, tongue or body [3, this result will be inferior, because kamma produces its appropriate result . The giving away of things which are equal to or of the same value as one has oneself or uses oneself is generosity as a friend (sahaaya daana). When such a person receives the result of his deed by way of the experience of an object through eyes, ears, nose, tongue or body, this result will be fairly good but not extraordinary good, in accordance with that kamma. Giving things which are more excellent than those one has or uses himself is generosity of a master (daana pati). The person who gives is a master in giving, not a slave of clinging to possessions. If someone is still a slave of clinging, of attachment to things which are good, which are of excellent quality, he will not be able to give. The result of giving excellent things is the acquiring of excellent things or the experience of objects through the senses which are extraordinarily good. Such result is in accordance with kamma, the cause. (end quote - for sake of space, i had to remove some interesting comments by ms. wandhana. my apologies.) metta, phil 36800 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:48am Subject: Re: CSC 4-[Sarah: "citta is..."] Dear Sarah, Thank-you for the well-considered comments and post. I have a number of questions still [and I'm also working on the kamma-vipaka issue at the same time]. My question is: Is not the idea of "conceptual right view" a trap, much like the notion of "conventional right effort"? This question arises because I see you and Jon and Rob K and Mike and me and others being very careful to consider the "samma" in "right effort" and make a strong case for "conventional right effort" as really a form of wrong effort -- not just a lesser degree of Right Effort, but qualitatively distinct and quite different from Right Effort. My guess is that "conceptual right view" (e.g., BB in his introduction to Samma Ditthi sutta http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/r_view/r_view00.htm) is akin to "conventional right effort" in that it is not simply a lesser degree of Right View but is distinctly different from Right View in essential quality with very little truly in common. They may *sound* like they are the same thing when people talk about them, but with Right View the talk is a description of the piercing, direct view of reality that is Right View; whereas with "conceptual right view", the talk is a piecing together of a theory by logic and rationation. > .... > S: I'm sure it can be in just the way you describe, but there are degrees > of right understanding (of any kind) and it would be for the person using > this phrase to clarify further for you;-). I was merely correcting what I > saw as an error in what you wrote which suggested that the only panna was > mundane and supramundane panna of the eightfold path. There are certainly different kinds and degrees of pañña, including a conceptual understanding of Dhamma doctrines. But can conceptualizations -- *any* conceptualizations -- really be called "right view"? My working hypothesis is that conceptualizations are simply ditthi, which is to be distinguished from Samma Ditthi, not only in degree but also in kind. > S: Now I don't think I've used `conceptual right view' as a phrase, I don't know that you have either. I was just rudely bringing the discussion back to MY question! > like with many other phrases, eg `seeing sees visible object', we need to > talk more to the user to find out the implied meaning rather than getting > too hung up on the words. We can also use exact the right phraseology but > with wrong view....so it just depends on the meanings intended, I think. > ***** You bet. But doesn't "conceptual right view" really sound like an oxymoron? Isn't Sammaditthi really about clear viewing of reality rather than "correct" conceptualization of reality? > You mentioned (36512) that you find it hard to take that the pain from the > falling tree on your leg is a result of bad kamma. > > Sometimes there is very strong bodily unpleasant feeling, at other times > not. We hear about people falling through windows and so on and not > experience painful feelings whilst at other times, they are very strong > when we'd expect otherwise. Also, quite unpredictable and different for > various people. If a tree falls on both our legs at the same time, the > vipaka will not be the same at all. So, it depends on the vipaka as to > whether any rupas and what rupas are experienced through the body sense at > any instant. There's no time for thinking or adverting to pain, the > unpleasant (or painful) bodily feeling just accompanies the body > consciousness which experience the rupas. However, I agree with RobM that > the kamma couldn't have its effect without natural decisive support > condition too. Hence, kamma and NDSC are very important conditions as he > says and of course, without the rupas arising to be experienced through > the body sense or the body sense rupas themselves, no opportunity for > vipaka cittas either as everyone agrees, I think. More on this topic later.... > p.s Where did you get your U Kyaw Khine transl of Dhs from and how is it? A few years ago, there was a kindly gentleman on the list who was a psychologist and ran a little Buddhist bookstore. He had spent some time in Burma and acquired some interesting books, including this translation of Dhs by a Burmese monk and published by the "Department for the Promotion and Propagation of the Sasana". There are 2000 copies in print. I don't recall the name of the man who sent me the book, but Rob K has one as well, so maybe he can help. Dhs seems like it would not be super difficult to translate, but C Rhy Davids sure made a mess of it! Compared to that, the Khine is wonderful. An added benefit is that the chapter and section headings match the CSCD so it is easy to do cross-referencing to the Pali. Metta, Dan 36801 From: robmoult Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 8:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > I thought you had accidentally given the impression of a mind that > existed outside the present, momentary, nama and rupa. Now I am > wondering if that was entirely accidental.(!) Why, for example, > have you told Herman that, in the first three moments of a sense- > door process, "the mind is experiencing a bhavanga citta?" > > Surely, at those times, the mind IS a bhavanga-citta. There is no > external mind into which, and out of which, cittas come and go. ===== You are absolutely correct. Thank you for making this correction. I will be on the lookout for similar mistakes in the future. ===== > > While I am at it, I might point out some other parts of your answer > I found disconcerting: > > ----------------- > RM: > There are many laws of nature in this universe but the Buddha > only focused on those relevant to the goal of His teachings. For > example, the Buddha never talked about gravity. Why did the Buddha > choose not to talk about the nature of gravity? Because > understanding the nature of gravity does not lead to the holy life > or to Nibbana > > ----------------- > > That gives the impression that gravity is a part of absolute > reality. But isn't gravity only a concept? ===== There are many laws of nature. One of these laws of nature is the law of kamma. The law of kamma is "only a concept" but the Buddha talked about it because it was within the scope of His teachings. Another law of nature is the law of gravity. It is also "only a concept" and the Buddha did not talk about it because it was not within the scope of His teachings. ===== > > ----------------- > RM: > The tactile object rupa arises because of temperature and > it is governed by natural laws which are outside the scope of the > Buddha's teaching. > > ----------------- > > Is that correct? Has the Buddha only partly explained the conditions > governing rupa? ===== The Abhidhammattha Sangaha lists the 24 condtions described in the Patthana according to the following six groupings: - Mind as a condition for mind - Mind as a condition for mind-and-matter - Mind as a condition for matter - Matter as a condition for mind - Concepts and mind-and-matter as a condition for mind - Mind-and-matter as a condition for mind-and-matter You will note that there is no discussion of matter as a condition for matter. ===== > > ------------------ > RM: > This question is formulated as an ontological, > phenomenological question. The Buddha's focus was not on defining > realities but rather on the mind (mind is what creates conditions > conducive to the holy life and what brings us closer to Nibbana); > ----------------------- > > I think you need to accept that the Buddha did define realities: > otherwise, you will continue to confuse them with concepts. :-) I am preparing a relatively lengthy post on this (sorry, I don't think that you are going to like it). You could save me a lot of effort if you could find a Sutta where the Buddha talked about "existence / non-existence" or "reality / non-reality". I sincerely hope that you can find such a Sutta. Metta, Rob M :-) 36802 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Intro Visuddhimagga XIV, 101. Hi Larry, While you are waiting for Rob's answer, I am just butting in. I am thinking of your remark about concept and reality you still find murky (I don't blame you, it is difficult!) and then I read Azita's remark about this matter I found very helpful. op 22-09-2004 07:39 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:> L: Also there is a vast unresolved murkiness concerning concept and reality. N: I am sorry about that. There were many posts and I wonder what is still unresolved? Perhaps we should mind what Azita says: < Azita: , I think we often try to fit into our 'rational' minds these concepts [and they are only concepts until truly known by panna].> So, many things are bound to be murky so long as insight has not been developed. But we can begin! And there is the level of intellectual understanding. I am wondering whether there is anything I can do, because it may be an annoying question for you when you are studying. Since I am at your post I try to say something about your other questions. > L: I doubt if there is a canonical or commentarial answer to most of > these questions. My own speculative answer is that everything is kamma > result N: Do you remember Sivaka sutta? S.N. XXXVI, 21, I translated the Co. and subco. Not everything is result of kamma. I can post some of it. <"Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans."> I can post more, no trouble, you are welcome. L: but because some dhammas perform functions beyond a passive > resultant function they are designated differently. I can see root > consciousnesses as being both results of kamma and creators of kamma. N: I would rather say: hetus can be associated with kusala citta or akusala citta, and also with vipaakacitta, namely sahetuka kusala vipaaka or mahaavipaaka. Also with inoperative citta, kiriyacitta. When we say root consciousness it may cause confusion. L: I think contact has to be kamma result, so anything that is contacted is > kamma result. N: See cetasika study corner. Phassa is a universal arising with each citta, thus, it can be of all four jaatis. It also arises with kusala citta and akusala citta. L: However, functional consciousness doesn't seem to fit into > this scheme. It is my understanding that "functional" by definition is > outside the whole kamma process. N: Indeed, it is neither cause nor result. Nina. 36803 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:00am Subject: Re: [dsg]suttas. Dear Friend James, I was hoping you still would follow posts! Thanks for your nice letter. op 22-09-2004 20:05 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: >> Hi Phil: >> K I: (I, 7, §2, The Devas, no 7, Over under Suttas, The heart > (mind, citta): >> Nor what is that whereby the world is led? ... I have been spending most of my > spare time these days reading past articles from the "The Wheel" > from BPS (and meditating, of course). Some of them have been quite > enlightening to me and my individual practice. N: Perhaps you can share some of it? J: Also, I am not sure > what you mean by my "taking up again the Kindred Sayings thread"…but > it sure sounds impressive!! Hehehe… Are you sure I participated in > anything as lofty as that!!?? ;-)) N: :-)) You used to have a sutta thread together with Christine and Victor (where is he?). You started with Kindred Sayings and you were posting translations of B.B. which I liked. It gives me pleasure to quote, for example this sutta: End quote. See, friend James, how involved you were? And I kept your note. I used to take the sutta along to my morning coffee and look at the Commentary I have in Thai. Those were good times!!! And as I am quoting this sutta, I find it a wonderful reminder. J: Anyway, let me know what you > would like me to do when you get the chance. I have thought of you > and hope that everything is going well with you (I feel I have > reasons to smile.). Take care. N: Now, it depends on your time and inclination. I know it is a lot of work because the B.B. transl are not on line. The above was just a hint :-)) Take care, Nina. 36804 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:17am Subject: Rob M'sTheory Behind The Buddha's Smile ( 06 ) by Htoo Dear Rob M and all, Rob M ebook is clearly written and easy to understand for everage people. Here I give some reputation on his pages. Page 22. 1.Registration The topic Mind-Door Process has 4 bullets in above ebook 'Theory Behind The Buddha's Smile'. In the 2nd last or 3rd bullet Rob writes as Two Registration Mental States. I think, we have discussed this before. I prefer 'Retention Mental State'. There is an object. It was passed by the past bhavanga mental state because it initially is not strong to serve as an object for mental state. After that there is vibrating bhavanga mental state. There has not arisen vithi citta because bhavanga cittas are ongoing but they vibrate. After that as there is a reminder that an object arises, bhavanga cittas are arrested. After that adverting co0nsciousness advert the attention to the object. Next citta receives that and next citta investigate the object. After that is determining consciousness. This is followed by 7 successive javana cittas. After that there only left 2 cittakkhana lifespan for the object. In this the arising cittas do not register any thing. These 2 cittas are one of 8 mahavipaka cittas or one of 3 santirana cittas. All are vipaka cittas and they arise just as a continutions. They just retain the object that was taken by javana cittas. So they should be retention consciousness rather than registration consciousness. I think Nina uses retention for this tadarammana citta. The Pali word is Tadaarammana. This means 'the''then' 'after' 'following' etc etc. So this means post javana or following javana or they just retain. Tadaarmmana does not means 'registration'. But anyway the book is readable and understandable. 2. Clear and obscure This a good translation. Bhtu means big, huge, large, great. Vi means distinctive or particular or especial. So vibhuuta sounds like clear while avibhuta means negative unclear or obscure. This is good point. 3. Javana and kamma-creating I agree. But not all javana are kamma-creating. There are 26 javana cittas that do not give rise to kamma. They are smiling citta of The Buddha, 8 mahakiriya cittas, 5 rupakiriya cittas, 4 arupa kiriya cittas, 8 lokuttara cittas. 12 akusala javana give akusala kamma, 8 mahakusala javana give kamavacara kusala kamma, 5 rupakusala give rupa kusala kamma, 4 arupakusala give arupa kusala kamma. So javana should not be kamma-creating even though it is right for non-arahats. Page 23. 4. Good point. Other may may not agree. But I like your writing here. 'A conformationational process that effectively '' copies the rupa into a mental object''. This is right. The arisen object is a rupa and it has passed away when the first bhavanga citta after tadarammana citta arises. Even though it does not exist any more, it is copied or printed to the mind at the mnind door process. 5. You describe that there are different processes and you depict them with lines and links. After the sense door process there always follow mind door process that take the object but working through for the chracterisation of that object, attha pannatta of the object that is the intrinsic name of that object. Intrinsic name here means 'attha pannatta' that is its true name. Example is 'water'. As soon as you hear water, you know. Those Pali speakers who hear 'udaka' know that it is water. Those Japanese who hear 'mistu' know that it is water. Those Hindis who hear 'Paani' know it is water. Those Chinese who hear 'suei' know it is water. Those Myanmar who hear 'yay' know it is water. This means that there is an intrinsic name for water rather than the voice itself. After that mind door process, mental states are for attending the voiced name or sadda pannatta. Here individual will think of their own language while the former process took for intrinsic name. After this there follow numerous characterisation for that rupa. That is why The Buddha preached that there are a million of millions cittas happen in a blink. Page 24 is perfect. Page 25. 5. Here Rob, you just put many religions together centering on a specific part of brain. This brain is also just construction and it is pannatta. But scientifically manifested brain waves may differ from one mental state to another. Even though there are calmness, this is not the same if cittas are not the same. For example those with ditthi or wrong view and those with right view differ. Only The Buddha will know any citta that arise. Thanks Rob M for sending me your ebook. I can open it and read it. Thank you very much. May these criticisms be beneficial. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 36805 From: dighanakha Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:42am Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hello Sarah, S> Bemusement was the right word. IÕm not over-fond of your S> Ôdsg hardcoreÕ label either a some of our most active and S> long-term members to date like Howard, for a good example, S> are very much at the heart of DSG and would not like to be S> lumped together with me on this thread as youÕve seen from S> the very varied responses. No problem. Do you have any suggestion for how one might distinguish you, Jon, Robert K, Nina, etc. from dsg's more independently-minded contributors? Kh Sujin's disciples? Sujinians? Sugeniuses? ASS's (i.e. Acharn Sujin's students)? dig>> "One who affirms a religious textual authority as holistic dig>> and absolute, admitting of neither criticism nor reduction, dig>> and to be interpreted only literally." S> Sorry, but no, the hat doesnÕt fit ;-) Usually those of us S> who read abhidhamma everywhere are being asked to read the S> suttas *more* literally, not less, for a start. Even for the S> Jataka under discussion, I think I tend to look at the S> deeper and less literal meaning and to reflect on the latent S> tendencies which have been accumulated, ready to pounce..... Point taken. Let me qualify it: "One who affirms a religious textual authority as holistic and absolute, admitting of neither criticism nor reduction, and to be interpreted only literally, except where a literal interpretation would conflict with the commitment to holism etc. or would lead to a demonstrably absurd or monstrous conclusion." In general, a person with great trust in Buddhaghosa will incline to literalism, since B'ghosa himself is a literalist to a fairly extreme degree. But it is the previous points (the commitment to holism etc.) that I perceive as being more prominent among the Sugeniuses. dig> FOR WOMEN dig> Drop dead! (nassatha) dig> Go to hell! (vinassatha) S> Well, again my interpetation above might not be so literal.....;-) Quite so. This is an example of literalism being abandoned because the consequence would otherwise be monstrous. Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me.' (Dighanakha Sutta) 36806 From: dighanakha Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:44am Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hello Sarah. S> You're obviously extremely well-read in the texts and I'm S> intrigued by the opening colouful messages from many new S> members here;-). Thank you for the welcome message. S> Can I persuade you to also share a little more about S> yourself or background, such as where you live? I live outside Anabhinandana. S> p.s If the name sticks, can we be given a short nickname to S> address you by? Thx;-) In fact Dighanakha Nutcracker *is* the short version. The long version goes on for four lines. Still, if it needs to be truncated further, I suppose you could take off the nakha leaving "Digger", or take off the Digha leaving "Knacker". Or take off the cracker leaving "Nut", or take off the Nut leaving "Cracker". Or chop off both ends leaving "Ghana", the Pali for nose. Or just shorten it to "D". Take your pick. Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ The view of those ascetics and brahmins who are of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me' is close to non-attachment, close to non-bondage, close to non-delighting, close to non-cleaving, close to non-grasping. (Dighanakha Sutta) 36807 From: dighanakha Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:46am Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hello Sarah, S> Like Matt stressed so well, S> Matt: Whether women corrupted the sasana or not does not S> change what reality is arising and inpinging on the sense S> door right now. Whether the Buddha held those views or not, S> whether the Jataka Tales are true or fiction, whether the S> Teaching will last 500 or 5,000 years does not change what S> reality is arising and impinging on the sense door right S> now. S> In the citta moment that arises right now there is no Jataka S> Tales, no women, nomen, no Bhikhunis, no sexist views and no S> self; male or female. Though Matt's comment has met with the list's general approval, I am not myself satisfied with it. The Jataka stories' judgments on women are grossly in error and this casts a shadow of doubt on the good judgment of the commentators. To try and lift this shadow by appealing to some other doctrine from these same commentators would be a case of "Ask my fellow if I be a thief!" And it is only from the commentators that we get the idea that the Buddha's Dhamma has to do with paramattha dhammas and citta-khanas. These terms are not found in the Tipitaka -- not even in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. The shadow of doubt cast by the commentators' judgments on women should reasonably be taken to cover what they say about other things. Why trust what a man has to say about micro-scale momentary mental events, if he can't even get it right about the observable behaviour of one half of the human race? Furthermore, it is not as if this is an isolated instance. There are many other subjects on which the commentators' views can be shown mistaken by simple observation -- in some cases by observations that the commentators could easily have made for themselves. For example, taking a less emotive subject than women, here are some of Buddhaghosa's thoughts on language (nirutti), from the chapter on the four discriminations in the Sammohavinodani: "A mother is a Tamil, a father is an Andhakan. If a child born to them hears the mother's voice first, he will speak Tamil; if he hears the father's voice first, he will speak Andhakan. If he hears the voice of neither of them, he will speak the dialect of Magadha (i.e. Pali). "One who is born in a great forest where there is no habitation and no other person to speak to: the power of speech will arise naturally in him and he will speak the dialect of Magadha. "The dialect of Magadha predominates throughout the hell realms, among animals, hungry ghosts, and in the worlds of humans and devas. "The remaining 18 languages other than the dialect of Magadha, such as the languages of savages, Andhakans, Bactrians, Tamils etc., are all subject to change. The dialect of Magadha -- the speech of Brahmas, the Ariyan speech -- is the only language not subject to change." Apart from what is said about the language of hungry ghosts etc. (which is unverifiable) everything above is wrong. Language acquisition in children is the result of ongoing interactive communication. It has nothing to do with which parent speaks to the child first. The children of deaf and dumb parents do not grow up speaking Pali. Nor do those children who have spent years incarcerated in cellars by mentally disturbed parents, who have fed them but never spoken to them. There are well-documented cases of this: if the children are rescued they do not speak any language at all; if the incarceration has lasted from birth to puberty then the very faculty of language acquisition is normally destroyed. The claims that Buddhaghosa is making for the Pali language are exactly the same as those made for Sanskrit by the brahmins, for Ardhamagadhi by the Jains, for Latin or Hebrew by medieval Schoolmen etc. etc. I don't doubt that other parallels would be found in any culture that has not yet evolved a scientific approach to linguistics. It seems to me that a passage like this shows clearly the extent to which Buddhaghosa (or the writer he was translating) was limited by the science of his day. If he can be so wildly wrong in his linguistics (or sexology, physiology, anatomy, Buddhist history, geography...etc.), why trust him on psychology? dig> On the other hand, if we are going to base our reasoning on dig> the dsg fundamentalist assumption that the Kunala Jataka WAS dig> spoken by the Buddha (because its Mahavihara translator said dig> so), then we shall have to conclude either that the Buddha dig> did not always speak the truth, or that he did not have even dig> the most rudimentary everyday understanding of women, let dig> alone special insight into them. S> Or that our own insight is too limited to comprehend and S> therefore we may need to leave it aside for the time being. Our insight in the sense of insight into the three characteristics may be limited, but there are whole fields of knowledge where we know better than Buddhaghosa simply because empirical scientific knowledge is cummulative and we were born later than him. I am pasting a link here to Richard Dawkins' Dimbleby Lecture, "Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder". His remarks on Aristotle, it seems to me, would apply with full force to the Mahavihara commentators: http://www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/WorldOfDawkins-archive/Dawkins/Work/ Articles/1996-11-12dimbleby.shtml "You could give Aristotle a tutorial. And you could thrill him to the core of his being. Aristotle was an encyclopedic polymath, an all time intellect. Yet not only can you know more than him about the world. You also can have a deeper understanding of how everything works. Such is the privilege of living after Newton, Darwin, Einstein, Planck, Watson, Crick and their colleagues." S> Something which is very puzzling to me, however, is the S> following: dig> Something else I would draw your attention to (though it is dig> less probative than the above) is that the Kunala depicts dig> the Bodhisatta as lying. He lies three times when he is dig> seducing the white-robed nun Saccatapavi. But in other dig> commentaries (I think in the Buddhavamsa or the Cariyapitaka dig> Comm) it is stated that a Bodhisatta never violates the dig> fourth precept. He might break the others, but never the dig> fourth. S> Yes. I read the text for this and also had a quick look S> at the Pali for the relevant lines and you seem to be S> right. IÕve also read/heard the same as you about the S> *third* precept as the exception and I have no explanation S> here(!!). It isn't the third precept. In fact there are many Jatakas where the Bodhisatta is a philanderer who goes around seducing other men's wives. It's definitely the fourth precept the commentators say he can't break. But I gave a wrong source. It's not the Cariyapitaka but the Jatakanidana, in the scene where Dipankara Buddha is teaching sacca-parami to the brahmin Sumedha. Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ The view of those ascetics and brahmins who are of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me' is close to non-attachment, close to non-bondage, close to non-delighting, close to non-cleaving, close to non-grasping. (Dighanakha Sutta) 36808 From: dighanakha Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:48am Subject: Re: "... as parasites a tree." ??? Hello Sarah (and Jon), S> So are all women (and men) capable of such despicable S> motives or acts as accused of in the Jataka tale or S> elsewhere or do the examples just pertain to the S> exceptionally bad lot? Again, I would suspend judgment, but S> have always found the following tale from Qus of King S> Milinda very interesting indeed: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/sbe3515.htm S> Please read the rest at the link and let me know what you S> think! Sorry to disappoint, but I think Nagasena's argument is flawed. To notice the flaw one needs to see the verses in their original contexts. King Milinda quotes the following verse: "Should they get opportunity or secrecy Or get a suitable wooer All women would do evil; Failing another, then even with a cripple." (Kunala Jataka) Note the phrase "All women". This is a universal proposition and only one exception is needed to falsify it. Milinda believes he has found an exception. He quotes another verse: "The woman called Amara, who was the wife of Mahosadha, stayed in the village while her husband was away on a journey. Remaining in private and alone and making her husband like unto a king, she committed no evil though she was offered a thousand (kahapanas)." (Maha-ummagga Jataka) Ah! So there's at least *one* faithful wife in the universe. Milinda then challenges Nagasena to show that the two quotes are not contradictory. Nagasena responds by arguing that there is no contradiction because Amara did NOT get "opportunity, secrecy or a suitable wooer" as specified in the first verse. But it is only by sleight of hand that he can defend this view. He equivocates by using the terms "opportunity", "secrecy" and "suitable wooer" in an entirely different sense to that which they have in the verse from the Kunala Jataka, when it is read in context. If the words are taken in their Kunala Jataka sense, it is clear that Amara DID obtain opportunity, privacy and a suitable wooer. In the Kunala verse 'opportunity' merely means that the woman finds a space big enough to contain herself and her lover. 'Privacy' means that the place is sufficiently roofed and walled to conceal herself and her lover. "Suitable wooer" means any man who wants to have sex with her. But Nagasena allows these terms to cover just about anything. Take 'secrecy' for example: "And, further, she refused to do wrong because, on consideration, she was not sure of keeping the thing secret from the world. For even could she have kept it secret from men, yet she could not have concealed it from spiritsÊ-- even could she have kept it secret from spirits, yet she could not have concealed it from those recluses who have the power of knowing the thoughts of others -- even could she have kept it secret from them, yet she could not have concealed it from those of the gods who can read the hearts of men -- even could she have kept it secret from the gods, yet she could not have escaped, herself, from the knowledge of her sin -- even could she have remained ignorant of it herself, yet she could not have kept it secret from (the law of the result which follows on) unrighteousness. Such were the various reasons which led her to abstain from doing wrong because she could not be sure of secrecy." So Amara was faithful because she was a woman of good character, and Nagasena stetches the meaning of "opportunity and privacy" to encompass good character, even though the terms mean nothing of the kind in the Kunala. Now that's called cheating! S> I hope this partly answerÕs DighanakhaÕs qu in his post to S> Christine about how some Ôhardcore dsg members deal with S> this problemÕ. In short, speaking only for myself, I just S> leave aside parts of the texts I have difficulty with, S> knowing how very little wisdom has been accumulated to S> date....just enough to have confidence that itÕs likely to S> be this ignorance rather than the texts themselves that S> blinds my vision. How far are you prepared to take this policy? For example, when you read this, from Buddhaghosa's Sammohavinodani: "A mother is a Tamil, a father is an Andhakan. If a child born to them hears the mother's voice first, he will speak Tamil; if he hears the father's voice first, he will speak Andhakan. If he hears the voice of neither of them, he will speak the dialect of Magadha (i.e. Pali). "A child who is born in a great jungle where there is no human habitation and no other person to speak to: the power of speech will arise naturally in him and he will speak the dialect of Magadha." I would guess, Sarah, that with your background in psychology, you might well have some difficulty believing these statements to be an accurate account of language acquisition in children. Would you say that it's likely to be your "ignorance that is blinding your vision", or would you say that Buddhaghosa was simply mistaken here? S> As Jon also wrote before to Howard: J> Actually, there are a number of aspects to the teachings J> that run counter to either our taught values or innately J> held beliefs, but many of these things we have now come to J> recognise as having merit or as more than likely being in J> accordance with the way things are.Ó Jon, do you think that the above statement about wolf-children growing up speaking Pali is likely to be in accordance with the way things are? S> p.s Btw, Dighanakha, I thought your parody on the S> Ôconsistent approach to the textsÕ starting with ÒIn the S> Kunala Jataka we learn that all women are actually different S> from how they conventionally appear to beÓ, was rather witty S> and clever, not that I wish to encourage you;-). Okay, I promise not to repeat the performance terribly often. But if the moderators will permit me one more .... guess who this is: "You seem to overlook the fact that Buddhaghosa was only addressing the case of a child born to an *Andhakan* father and a *Tamil* mother. He does not suggest that the same would be true of a child born to a French father and an American mother, nor any of the other mixed marriage offspring tested by modern linguistic researchers. Since there are no Andhakans nowadays this is a teaching that is not relevant to our everyday lives in the kind of world in which we now live. The causes and conditions that would lead to an encounter with an Andhakan are just not present. That does not of course mean that I would wish to reject or exclude this aspect of commentarial insight. In fact I see no reason to doubt that if there WERE an Andhakan man, and if he DID marry a Tamil, and if they DID beget a child we would find the outcome to be exactly as specified in the Sammohavinodani. "As for the child who grows up without hearing human speech, I agree that *to you and me* it may seem difficult to believe that he is making anything more than incoherent grunts and yelps. But who are we to judge that those grunts and yelps are not the dialect of Magadha? Since the Sammohavinodani DOES contain an authoritative statement saying that the the dialect of Magadha is the language that the child would be speaking, what else could those grunts and yelps possibly be?" ;-) Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ The view of those ascetics and brahmins who are of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me' is close to non-attachment, close to non-bondage, close to non-delighting, close to non-cleaving, close to non-grasping. (Dighanakha Sutta) 36809 From: dighanakha Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:51am Subject: Re: 1 Rebirth[herman]OK, Abhidharma Hello Robert. R> I'll try to write a few posts on this. First I begin with the R> Kesaputta sutta (incorrectly called the Kalama sutta by modern R> Buddhists) Oh my, them wicked modern Buddhists! In fact I doubt that "Kalama Sutta" originates with modern Buddhists, unless by 'modern' you mean from the 10th century onwards. You will find the sutta called by this name in the Abhinava Tika, in its section on the Brahmajala Sutta. It is common for a sutta to be known by three or four different names in the Commentaries. Sincerely, Dighanakha Nutcracker _____________________________ Truly, Master Gotama, I am of this persuasion, of this view: 'everything is not pleasing to me.' (Dighanakha Sutta) 36810 From: jwromeijn Date: Thu Sep 23, 2004 0:03p