44000 From: "alpha16draconis" Date: Sun Apr 3, 2005 10:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is cittuppada? alpha16draconis I found it a reference to it in "A Manual of Abhidhamma" by Narada pg. 142 Cittuppada, literally means a genesis of Citta. Here the term means consciousness itself. In other instances it implies the collection of mental states together with consciousness. I think it is just a synonym for citta, but another text translated it as state of consciousness, which confused me. Stephen. 44001 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Apr 3, 2005 11:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Friends, Precepts, Books, and sayings christine_forsy... Hello Jon, all, Thank you for your additional explanation, but, doesn't it seem that something more than a fleeting mind moment is meant in these suttas ... about being an Actor, about being a Soldier; about dealing in business of weapons, living beings, meat, intoxicants, and poisons; and long lists of the varieties of Wrong Livelihood for Contemplatives http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn42-002.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn42-003.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-177.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn02.html#livelihood metta and peace, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Chris > > Thanks for the report and impressions of Bangkok. I'm glad you found it > useful, as I did too. > > Just a further comment on the right livelihood issue. > > --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > > > Well, have to say I still don't quite understand the Right > > Livelihood part ... Jon tried to explain to me about how 'you can > > work in an abattoir and still have RL ... in all the moments that > > you aren't actually slaughtering an animal, or performing other > > akusala ..' > > Right speech, r. action and r. livelihood are all restraints, that is to > say, they occur at the moment of restraint from wrong speech, action or > livelihood. > > In the case of r. livelihood in particular, this is restraint of speech or > action that occurs in the furtherance of one's livelihood. > > Where a person's livelihood is slaughtering animals, it is inevitable that > there will be a lot of moments of wrong livelihood. But the pursuit of > any livelihood also involves, for example, opportunities for > honesty/dishonesty, so a moment of restraint from dishonesty by the person > would be a moment of right livelihood, regardless of the nature of the > occupation being followed. > > Conversely, a person may be engaged in a very commendable occupation, but > have poor speech and general moral conduct, in which case there could be > many moments of wrong livelihood. > > I hope this is clearer. > > Jon 44002 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Apr 3, 2005 11:57pm Subject: Re: Dhamma in the City gazita2002 Hello Rob, A profitable time, and I came home with a CD of the whole three days. Ummm, I have seen The Matrix and I do remember thinking while watching, that there were reminders for me about some aspect or other of Dhamma, but cannot now remember what. I guess dhamma reminders need not be limited to actually listening to dhamma. A point that I think many of us forget or at least, for me, at the times when clinging to trying to understand a 'sticky point'. Right understanding has to arise as naturally as the clinging arises - anywhere and anytime given the right conditions. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Hi Azita, Sounds like you had a profitable time. > To me The Matrix movie gives a analogy of what insight is. > Robert > > 44003 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 1:14am Subject: Re: Dhamma in the City rjkjp1 Send IM --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > > days. > Ummm, I have seen The Matrix and I do remember thinking while > watching, that there were reminders for me about some aspect or other > of Dhamma, but cannot now remember what. > I guess dhamma reminders need not be limited to actually > ---- HI Azita, One nice scene is when Neo returns to the matrix for the first time . He sees a cafe where he used to frequent and says something about how real it still seems - even though he knows it is an illusion. He asks Trinity what that means (his feeling). Trinity: "It doesn't mean anything, just that the Matrix can't show you who you really are". So we live our lives in this conceptual world, trying to make our mark (or just trying to survive), but all our actions are only expressions of of avijja (ignorance) , and Tanha(greed). Those are the elements we need to understand, along with the other realities. robertk 44004 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 1:15am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking processes. gazita2002 dear Nina and Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > op 01-04-2005 02:39 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > > N: Firm sanna is the proximate cause of sati of satipatthana. We learn > > again and again about nama and rupa, about their different > > characteristics. And when we listened and considered a great deal, and > > intellecual understanding has been accumulated sufficiently, it can be > > immediately known when nama appears to the sati and when rupa. No need > > to say it or define it. > > Azita: On reading this again, another aspect of Sanna occurred to me, in relation to the 5th precept - refrain from intoxicants. If it takes firm rememberance of intellectual understanding, to be a conditon for sati to arise in some future time, then the taking of intoxicants hinders that remembrance, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the being, I suppose. What do you think? Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 44005 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 1:28am Subject: Re: A Question Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 jonoabb Hi Charles --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > > > Jon, > > This is a tough one (the idea) so I understand why you could be feeling > lost. > > "In a nut shell" > > The point of not suffering even though there is clinging is based on the > principle of transforming a samsaric experience into an enlightening > one. This takes wisdom concentration, and morality/basic goodness. > > An example of this is the practice of single pointed meditation that is > fixed on an object. We are actually clinging to the object. > > Does that help?? Thanks. Two questions of clarification, please: 1) You mention 'transforming a samsaric experience into an enlightening one'. Can you put that in more specific terms (preferably by reference to something in the suttas or other texts)? 2) You seem to be saying that single-pointed concentration on an object must involve clinging. If so, what do you understand by the development of samatha/jhana? Jon 44006 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 1:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Having no opinions jonoabb Hi Charles --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > > > Hi Jon > ... > If you remove consciousness you could not tell if you were thinking, nor > would you be able to sense objects. I would think, you would have no > reason to think since without consciousness there is no-awareness. And > keep in mind that consciousness and concoting/thinking are seperate > aggregets. To my understanding, 'thinking' is a conventional term for a particular kind of consciousness, that is to say, vinnana and its accompanying cetasikas, thus, all 4 nama-khandhas. Jon 44007 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is cittuppada? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "alpha16draconis" wrote: > > I found it a reference to it in "A Manual of Abhidhamma" by Narada > pg. 142 > > Cittuppada, literally means a genesis of Citta. Here the term means > consciousness itself. In other instances it implies the collection of > mental states together with consciousness. > > I think it is just a synonym for citta, but another text translated it > as state of consciousness, which confused me. > > Stephen. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Dhamma Friends, Regarding 'cittuppaada', it is made up of 'citta' and 'uppaada'. Uppada has a middle 'a' and this 'a' has a bar over it and pronounced as 'aa' which is a long vowel. So I spell it as 'uppaada'. Citta is '' ceto + atta ''. Atta is existence. Ceto means 'mind' or mind-related. Citta is a moment of consciousness which exists(atta) as a mental(ceto) phenomenon. Uppaada means 'arising' 'appearing' 'coming into existence'. Examples of 'cittuppaada'. When a man is angry, there is a series of akusala vithi vara called 'dosa javana'. There are 7 successive dosa mula cittas. So there are 7 cittuppaadas. There is little difference between 'citta' and cittuppaada'. But they are not synonyms. Cittuppaada indicates 'occurrence' while citta indicate 'existence' of mental body. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44008 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XIV, 150 and Tiika nilovg Hi Larry, op 04-04-2005 02:14 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: What is vipaka chanda? N: Chanda does not arise with ahetuka cittas, thus not with ahetuka vipaakacittas, such as seeing, receiving-consciousness etc. It accompanies all sobhana cittas, thus also mahaavipakacittas, mahaa-kiriyacittas. As we learnt, mahaa-vipakacittas are accompanied by wholesome roots, sobhana hetus, they are the results of mahaa-kusala kamma. Rebirth-consciousness that is mahaa-vipakacitta is accompanied by alobha and adosa and it may be accompanied by paññaa. This kind of vipaakacitta is also accompanied by chanda. This is not an active wish to do, but merely result. We have to remember Vis. Ch XIV, 100: The Tiika states that also because kusala cittas are powerful while they occur, they have the meaning of being active.> Nina. 44009 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Friends, Precepts, Books, and sayings jonoabb Hi Chris I think the problem here is one of context. I took your question to be about Right Livelihood as a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path. Suttas about 'types of business that should not be engaged in' are on a slightly different, though related, point (I think you'll find they do not actually equate following a specific occupation with Wrong Livelihood of the NEP). For those of us who are fortunate enough not to be engaged in any of the 'types of business that should not be engaged in', questions of Right Livelihood may still arise (some examples: dishonesty regarding hours of attendance or reason for absence from work, unauthorised use of employer's property for personal matters, mis-statement of fact in report sheet, bad-mouthing of colleague for personal advancement, etc). Jon --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > > > Hello Jon, all, > > Thank you for your additional explanation, but, doesn't it seem that > something more than a fleeting mind moment is meant in these > suttas ... about being an Actor, about being a Soldier; about > dealing in business of weapons, living beings, meat, intoxicants, > and poisons; and long lists of the varieties of Wrong Livelihood > for Contemplatives > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn42-002.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn42-003.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-177.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn02.html#livelihood > > > metta and peace, > Chris 44010 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 2:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is cittuppada? nilovg Hi Stephen and Jon, op 04-04-2005 05:01 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@...: > > Cittuppada is not a term I'm familiar with, but you may find something of > interest in the message at: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12008?ordered=1&simpl e=> 1 N: I met this term also. Dhammasangani Pali: 1418, not translated in English. But Sarah has it. Which dhammas are present objects... dasa cittuppaadaa... I am inclined to see it as cittas that have arisen. Htoo has a very good explanation, thank you, Htoo. I look at T.A. (Co to Abh. Sangaha, p. 67): I think the emphasis is on that it arises. And also: it cannot arise without cetasikas. Maybe Mike would perhaps look under consciousness, arising of consciousness at the index. There is more, but I have little time today, almost off. Nina. 44011 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 2:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XIV, 150 and Tiika jonoabb Hi Nina Many thanks for this post, which is full of very interesting material. Of special interest to me is the close connection between chanda and right effort (and yoniso manasikara). We may be inclined to see an intention to perform kusala as being a necessary or useful supportive factor, but I think the passages (including the one from STA) make it clear that chanda is the factor that performs the function in question. Jon --- nina wrote: ... > Tiika: Therefore he said ŒIt should be regarded as the extending of the > mental hand in the apprehending of an object.¹ When this has arisen with > kusala dhammas it is called kusala chanda, because it has originated > from right attention (yoniso manasikaara). > > N: When there is right attention to the object, the javana cittas are > kusala and thus accompanied by kusala chanda. > We read in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 57) which > translates chanda as purpose: is > the state of wanting an object. It has the characteristic of desiring to > act. Thus it is said that it is like the reaching out of the hand of > consciousness to take hold of an object. At the time of offering alms, > it is > wanting something that can be offered, like an archer wanting to take up > arrows in order to shoot.> 44012 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is cittuppada? jonoabb Nina, Stephen, Htoo Just a further reference or two I've turned up (apologies for any repetition of points already made). 'Cittuppadapa' is the name of one of the Divisions (Kanda) of the Dhammasnagani: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/tipintr4.htm The compound ceta cittuppada is regarded by some as a synonym for citta, mana, mano, vinnana: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/mtinmon1.htm In the context of the paramis, it is used to refer to the act of consciousness that constitutes an aspiration for Buddhahood: http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of%20insight.htm Jon --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Stephen and Jon, > N: I met this term also. Dhammasangani Pali: 1418, not translated in > English. But Sarah has it. 44013 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 2:37am Subject: Re: What is citta? htootintnaing Dear Tep and DSG members, Actually, this post 'What is citta' is just an old post at my own web site, which I frequently linked. It is at 'www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana1.html'. A total of 78 pages have been written. I will answer you questions below. Tep wrote: Dear Friend Htoo (and other DSG members) - I think your message (#43934) is one of the many reprints you have made on this subject. May I suggest that you kindly consider expanding the text to include answers to the following questions: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is fine. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: It is the nature that is aware of its object. No other dhamma or no other nature can know anything including themselves. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- T: Why? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because it is its own nature. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: A citta arises, it passes away immediately after its arising. > Another citta arises, and again it falls away. Next arises and dies > out immediately. This kind of uninterruptedness is the manifestation > of citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- T: Why? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because it is its own manifestation. Example; your mind is not static. This is always right. Even if you have jhanas, your mind is still not static. One citta arises and then immediately falls away. Without interruption, there arise another citta. Once U Han Tun (Triplegem member) posted at Triplegem that-- 'He was looking at a painting. Suddenly he hearda familiar voice of his friend, who was calling him. He was shocked to know the 'successiveness of 2 different cittas' in a short time. He equated that phenomena as 'cuti citta of last life and patisandhi citta of current life'. Your question 'Why?' has to be answered as 'because it is its own manifestation'. I will have no answer if you ask 'why cakkhuvinnana sees rupaarammana'? :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep continued: And what makes it behave that way? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is citta niyama. No one or nothing makes it behave that way. When niyama dhamma are not understood, some appoint God as if God is creating such and such thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: There are 89 cittas in total. T: How could this statement be practically (experimentally) verified? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If you want to practically verify you will need to have experienced all cittas in this life with the exception of 9 cittas, which are 5 rupavipaka cittas and 4 arupavipaka cittas. These 9 cittas are not yours and these are also not of The Buddha. The Buddha in His Buddhahood did not have these 9 cittas. These 9 cittas are patisandhi, bhavanga citta and cuti citta of brahmas. Leaving these 9 cittas there left 80 cittas. You can experience these 80 if you are arduously, diligently try to have all 8 jhanas and all 8 magga cittas, which means you will have to be a jhanalabhii arahat to experience all these. If you do not believe, verify yourself my trying to become jhanalabhi arahat. As jhanalabhi there will have abhinna. So you will have see or perceive other bahiddhika cittas as well. This is for verification. Otherwise verification will have to be less strong. But the other way to see these cittas are by taking your mind as a base and then analyse them as far as you can. Example cittas have been written in my old posts and I have been posting them with different heading. 1. You can have lobha citta or lobha mula citta with happy mind and unprompted and without wrong view. 2. sometimes with wrong view 3. sometimes with prompt like lobha arise only after stimulation. 4. sometimes you may not have gross happiness and your feeling may be just indifferent. 5. likewise dosa cittas have 2 forms. One is unpromptednness and another is with prompt. 6. moha mula cittas have 2 kinds. One is spreading mind and another is suspicious mind. And many other cittas. When you have 1st jhana, you will experience 1st jhana or 1st jhana rupakusala citta. If you end up with 1st jhana and you become an arahat, then you will experience 1st jhana rupakiriya citta. Likewise 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th rupakusala and rupakiriya will be experienced. The same applies to 4 arupakusala cittas and 4 arupakiriya cittas. You will never have 5 rupavipaka cittas and 4 arupavipaka cittas. When you experienced arahatta phala citta, then you will already have experienced all lower 7 lokuttara cittas and they will never arise again but arahatta phala will arise when you were in arahatta-phalka- samapatti. There are 8 lokuttara cittas. There are 4 arupa jhanas. So there are 4 arupakusala cittas. And there are 4 arupakiriya cittas. They resultant cittas arupavipaka cittas are patisandhi citta, bhavanga citta, and cuti citta of arupa brahma and not of deva or human or other brahmas or other beings. The same applies to 5 rupa jhanas. As there are 5 rupa jhana, there are 5 rupakusala cittas. If arahats have attained rupa jhanas, then there may arise 5 rupakiriya cittas. But rupavipaka cittas are patisandhi cittas, bhavangacittas, and cuti cittas of rupa brahmas and not of human or deva or arupa brahmas or other beings. SO there are a) 8 lokuttara cittas b)12 arupavacara cittas c)15 rupavacara cittas -------------------- 35 cittas are higher cittas and difficult to attain. 89 - 35 = 54 cittas are kaamaavacara cittas. By analysis you may (or may not be) become happy to accept these cittas. 54 kaamaavacara cittas are nothing but those cittas at arise at 5 panca-dvara of cakkhu pasada, sota pasada, ghana pasada, jivha pasada, and kaya pasada. How do they become 54 ? At cakkhu dvara there are 46 cittas. At sota dvara there are 46 cittas. At ghana dvara there are 46 cittas. At jivha dvara there are 46 cittas. At kaya dvara there are 46 cittas. At cakkhu pasada there are 46 cittas that can arise at. 44 cittas are the same at other dvaras. But 2 new cittas at each new dvara. They are 2. 2 cittas of sotavinnana cittas(1 kusalavipaka and 1 akusalavipaka) 3. 2 cittas of ghanavinnana cittas ,, 4. 2 cittas of jivhavinnana cittas ,, 5. 2 cittas of kayavinnana cittas ,, 46 cittas at cakkhu dvara + 8 extra cittas at 4 other dvaras make 54 total kaamaavacara cittas ( 46 + 8 = 54 ). How do they become 46 cittas. Example; cakkhudvara vithi vara ( cakkhuvinnana vithi vara ) a) bhavanguppaccheda citta ( 19 bhavanga cittas ) b) pancadvara avajjana citta ( 1 ahetuka kiriya citta) c) cakkhu vinnana citta ( 2 cakkhu vinnana cittas) d) sampaticchana citta (2 sampaticchana cittas) e) santirana citta (3 santirana cittas) f) votthapana citta ( 1 manodvara avajjana citta ) g) javana citta(29 kama javana citta_12 aku,8 mahaku,8 mahaki,1 hasi) h) tadaarammana cittas (11 cittas, 8 mahavi and 3 santirana) -------------------------------- 46 cittas a) 10/19 bhavanga cittas ( 2 santirana, 8 mahavi for kama satta) 9 cittas are for rupa and arupa brahmas b) 1 pancadvaravajjana citta c) 2 cakkhu vinnana cittas d) 2 sampaticchana cittas e) 1/3 santirana cittas f) 1 manodvara avajjana citta g) 29 kaama javana cittas h) 0/11 tadarammana citta ------- 46 cittas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep continued: How is such fact (given that it is true) useful for insight knowledge development? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If you really know lobha mula citta in its fullest essence, it will not develop in you mind at all. This is just an example how insight may develop in your mind because of studying of abhidhamma. But just studying and reflecting will not be enough. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: If you could answer the above questions in a straightforward fashion, then the subject "What is citta?" would become more interesting (at least to me). Kindest regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have answered straight forward. I hope these help you develop a good mind. With Metta, Htoo Naing > > ======== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > From four realities, first, citta needs to be understood. It is the > > nature that is aware of its object. No other dhamma or no other > > nature can know anything including themselves. But citta can know > > everything possible including cittas. > > 44014 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (294) htootintnaing Dear Kel, Mike and All, Thanks Kel for your explanation. Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > I find it useful to remember it's 3 value logic, not 2. Your > question make it sound like you think other jhanas can be > accompanied by miccha-samadi. All akusala won't be accompanied by > samma-anything. Some are accompanied by miccha and some doesn't > have either. Hence the 3 value are like: pleasant, unpleasant and > neutral feelings. By the same token all kusala won't be accompanied > by miccha-anything. Some might lack samma but it falls > into "neutral" category which lacks both. Technically though all > kusala cittas are accompanied by sati. Also all jhana cittas have > panna, only 4/8 maha-kusala cittas lack panna. > > - kel > > > covered this already, but can even the 2nd and 4th aruupajhaanas-- > with > > paramattha dhammas as objects--still be micchaasamaadhi if > unaccompanied by > > sammaadi.t.thi, sammaasati etc.? 44015 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (294) htootintnaing Mike wrote: Hi Htoo and Nina, Thanks Htoo, I found this very helpful and interesting too. Sorry if you've covered this already, but can even the 2nd and 4th aruupajhaanas- -with paramattha dhammas as objects--still be micchaasamaadhi if unaccompanied by sammaadi.t.thi, sammaasati etc.? Thanks in advance, mike -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Dear Mike, I have a feeling regarding your question. What I understand is that you asked '2nd or 4th arupa jhana while taking paramattha object' may not still have sammaa-samaadhi and sammaa- sati of Noble Eightfold Path. 2 teachers of Bodhisatta had 2nd arupa jhana. The sammaadhi they has is good. But their sammaadhi is not of Bodhipakkhiya dhamma even though they are not micchaa-samaadhi. I hope this makes clear. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44016 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 2:57am Subject: Re: Vipassana / Tep htootintnaing Dear Ken H and Tep, Sorry for my butting in. Duutinga are the practice that suit to individuals who have different caritas or habit. Lustful beings have to practise differently from angry-typed beings and so on. There are 13 duutingas and they are described in visuddhimagga. With Metta, Htoo Naing -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Thank you for your encouraging words. I am glad to accept your > suggestion to re-examine the issues. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > T: > For this mail I have just one concern about your opinion on > the "jhana meditators". > > KH: Isn't it true that sitting for long periods with a straight back > while living in a cemetery or at the base of a tree applies only to > jhana meditators? 44017 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 3:05am Subject: Atthakatha, tiikaa, anutiikaa & ? madhutiikaa htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > you make me hungry for anutiika, but where to get it? Can you add from it? > Translating it from Burmese? That would be wonderful. > Nina. > op 02-04-2005 12:31 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > Thanks for your reply. Tiika is good. Anutiika is also good to learn. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Atthakatha and tiikaa are ancient commentaries and subcommentaries and I believe they were passed over by genuine arahats bhikkhus. Even all tiikaa are not available in full translations including Myanmar, English and others. Anutiikaa are finer subcommentaries that arose round about 3rd and 4th Buddhists' Councils and they were written by learned and practising bhikkhus and all are in Pali. Still there are other tiikaas. I remember one of my teacher said there are 'madhutiikaas'. It is also 1000 years old. With respect, Htoo Naing 44018 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 3:19am Subject: Dhamma Thread (296) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 non-material absorptive stillings or 4 arupa jhanas. 1. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa jhana 2. vinnaanancaayatana arupa jhana 3. akincinnaayatana arupa jhana 4. n'evasannaanaasannaayatana arupa jhana Dhamma Threads is currently discussing on beings and cittas in arupa brahma bhumis or non-material realms. Just before discussing on 'cittas in arupa brahmas' 12 different cittas of arupavacara cittas will be explained here. There are 4 arupa jhanas. Please see above and previous posts. When human beings who are intelligent enough to attain arupa jhanas or when deva beings who are intelligent enough to attain arupa jhana or when rupa brahma attain arupa jhana or when arupa brahma are in arupa jhana-samapatti there develop these 4 arupa jhanas. When such development happen, cittas in such events are all arupakusala cittas. As kusala cittas they will have the power of giving rise to arupavipaka cittas later in next lives if they are reborn in arupa brahma realms. As there are 4 arupa jhanas, there are 4 arupakusala cittas. They are 1. akasanancayatana arupakusala citta 2. vinnanancayatana arupakusala citta 3. akincinnayatana arupakusala citta 4. nevasannanasannayatana arupakusala citta. When arahats have attained arupa jhanas and when they are in arupa jhana-samapatti, the cittas in that jhana-samapatti will all be arupakiriya cittas. As there are 4 arupa jhanas there will be 4 arupakiriya cittas. They are 1. akasanancayatana arupakiriya citta 2. vinnannancayatana arupakiriya citta 3. akincinnayatana arupakiriya citta 4. nevasannanasannayatana arupakiriya citta. Any one of human beings or deva beings or rupa brahma beings, all of whom have attained arupa jhana and die with that arupa jhana will be reborn with their respective arupavipaka cittas. If arupa brahmas die with arupakusala cittas they will be reborn in the same arupa brahma realm or to higher realms but not to lower arupa brahma realms. When beings are reborn in 4 separate arupa brahma realms, their citta will be one of these 4 arupavipaka cittas. 1. akasanancayatana arupavipaka citta 2. vinnanancayatana arupavipaka citta 3. akincinnayatana arupavipaka citta 4. nevasannanasannayatana arupavipaka citta May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44019 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 5:43am Subject: Dhamma Thread (297) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 non-material absorptive stillings or 4 arupa jhanas. 1. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa jhana Aa-kaa-saa-nan-caa-ya-ta-na a-ruu-pa jhaa-na or non-material absorption absorbed in the 'boundless space' 2. vinnaanancaayatana arupa jhana Vin-naa-nan-caa-ya-ta-na a-ruu-pa jhaa-na or non-material absorption absorbed in the 'boundless consciousness' 3. aakincinnaayatana arupa jhana Aa-kin-cin-naa-ya-ta-na a-ruu-pa jhaa-na or non-material absorption absorbed in the sphere of 'nothingness' 4. n'evasannaanaasannaayatana arupa jhana Ne-va-san-naa-naa-san-naa-ya-ta-na a-ruu-pa jhaa-na or non-material absorption absorbed in the sphere neither perception nor non-perception'. All these 4 non-material absorption or 4 arupa jhana are cittas. They are absorptive mind or absorptive consciousness. These jhana cittas are cittas that frequently arise in arupa brahma realms even though they may also arise in human beings, deva beings and rupa brahma beings. As they are more frequent in arupa brahmas they are called arupavacara cittas. Arupa brahmas are reborn with 1. akasanancayatana arupavipaka citta if they are reborn in 1st arupa bhumi or akasanancayatana bhumi. 2. vinnanancayatana arupavipaka citta if they are reborn in 2nd arupa bhumi or vinnanancayatana bhumi. 3. akincinnayatana arupavipaka citta if they are reborn in 3rd arupa bhumi or akincinnayata bhumi. 4. nevasannanasannayatana arupavipaka citta if they are reborn in 4th arupa bhumi or nevasannanasannayatana bhumi. As soon as they are reborn these 4 cittas each perform as patisandhi citta for each of 4 realms of arupa brahmas. These arupa patisandhi or non-material rebirth consciousness are immediately and uninterruptedly followed by 1st bhavanaga citta, which has the same characteristics and the same accompaniments as patisandhi citta or linking consciousnesness or rebirth consciousness. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44020 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 5:54am Subject: Akusala cittas htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, After discussion on 4 of 8 lobha mula citta or 8 attachment-rooted consciousness, the remaining lobha cittas or attachment-consciousness will be discussed along with 2 dosa mula cittas or 2 aversion-rooted consciousness and 2 moha mula cittas or 2 ignorance-rooted consciousness. The fifth lobha citta is seen as in a case of a child while he is listening his parents' talking interestingly. He is not particularly happy because he does not fully understand adult's speech. But as there is lobha he is listening actively. There is wrong view as he does not know kamma well. And no one is urging him to listen. The sixth lobha citta is seen as in case of a child while he is receiving a present and being told that it is for him. He is not particularly happy. This is upekkha. He does not know kamma. But he is told that the present is for him. Before he hears this, lobha citta does not arise. When told, it arises. This is sasankharika or being urged. The seventh lobha citta can be seen in case of an adult when he is counting some notes of money. He is not particularly happy as this amount of money is nothing to do with somanassa. He knows kamma well. No one is urging him in his action. The eighth lobha citta can be seen in case of an adult when he is counting some notes of other people's money when he is told that the notes he is counting is for him. Amount is not much and he has to be urgerd. So this is sasankharika lobha citta. There are 2 dosa mula cittas. They are _ 1.domanassa sahagatam patigha samyuttam asankharika cittam 2.domanassa sahagatam patigha samyuttam sasankharika cittam. Domanassa means unpleasant feeling in mind. Patigha means destroying, hurting, impinging, hitting. The first dosa citta can be seen in most of dosa cittas where people apparently behaving aggressively like killing, hitting, pounding, kicking, swearing etc etc. The second dosa citta can be seen in the case when a man is told something and he did not hear that. A friend told that it was you who is foolish. Then he becomes angry. He has to be prompted. So this is sasankharika citta. There are 2 moha mula cittas. They are_ 1.upekkha sahagatam vicikiccha samyutta cittam 2.upekkha sahagatam uddhcca samyutta cittam The first moha citta is seen in a case of undecisiveness when a person cannot decide right or wrong and he has suspicion on the matter. The second moha citta can be seen in most people while they are wandering thinking fancily. This can be seen especially in case of grief reaction. When someone lost, then there is restlessness and people concerned are upseted. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44021 From: "mnease" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 5:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is cittuppada? mlnease Hi Nina, Stephen and Jon, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 2:04 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] What is cittuppada? > Maybe Mike would perhaps look under consciousness, arising of consciousness > at the index. There is more, but I have little time today, almost off. I'll be glad to when I have time but have to be off early and back late myself today through Wednesday--I'll get back to you when time permits. mike 44022 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 6:10am Subject: Dhamma Thread (298) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, As soon as reborn in one of 4 arupa brahma realms, the first citta in beings in any of 4 arupa brahma realms is patisandhi citta or rebirth- consciousness. These rebirth-consciousness or patisandhi citta do the job of linking. The cittas that do the job of linking here are 1. akasanancayatana arupavipaka citta or resultant consciousness absorbed in the object of 'boundless space' 2. vinnanancayatana arupavipaka citta or resultant consciousness absorbed in the object of 'boundless consciousness' 3. akincinnayatana arupavipaka citta or resultant consciousness absorbed in the object of 'nothingness' 4. nevasannanasannayatana arupavipaka citta or resultant consciousness absorbed in the object of neither 'perception' not 'non-perception' What do they link? Akasanancayatana arupavipaka citta links 'the 1st bhavanaga citta of akasanancayatana arupa brahma' to 'cuti citta or dying consciousness of immediate previous life'. Vinnanancayatana arupavipaka citta links 'the 1st bhavanaga citta or life-continuing consciousness of vinnanancayatana arupa brahma' to 'cuti citta or dying consciousness of immediate previous life'. Akincinnayatana arupavipaka citta links 'the 1st bhavanaga citta or life continuing consciousness of akincinnayatana arupa brahma' to 'cuti citta or dying consciousness of immediate previous life'. Nevasanna-na-sannayatana arupavipaka citta links 'the 1st bhavanga citta of nevasannanasannayatana arupa brahma' to 'cuti citta or dying consciousness of immediate previous life'. Bhavanga cittas ( here arupavipaka cittas ) have the same characterisitics, the same accompanying dhamma, the same object, the same footing or the same ground as in case of patisandhi citta or rebirth-consciousness (here arupavipaka cittas ). The only difference is the function. Patisandhi citta or rebirth- consciousness does the job of linking as mentioned above while bhavanga citta or life-continuing consciousness does the job of continuation of life as there are still kamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44023 From: "mnease" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (294) mlnease Hi Htoo, ----- Original Message ----- From: "htootintnaing" To: Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 2:50 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (294) > Dear Mike, I have a feeling regarding your question. > > What I understand is that you asked '2nd or 4th arupa jhana while > taking paramattha object' may not still have sammaa-samaadhi and > sammaa- > sati of Noble Eightfold Path. > > 2 teachers of Bodhisatta had 2nd arupa jhana. The sammaadhi they has > is > good. But their sammaadhi is not of Bodhipakkhiya dhamma even though > they are not micchaa-samaadhi. > > I hope this makes clear. This does help and makes sense I think, thanks--I'll look into it further and get back to you if I have more questions. mike 44024 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 7:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (294) nilovg Hi Mike, true jhana has to be accompanied by sati and paññaa, otherwise it is not real jhana, but only what may be erroneaously taken for jhana. Nina. op 03-04-2005 20:44 schreef mnease op mlnease@...: > Thanks Htoo, I found this very helpful and interesting too. Sorry if you've > covered this already, but can even the 2nd and 4th aruupajhaanas--with > paramattha dhammas as objects--still be micchaasamaadhi if unaccompanied by > sammaadi.t.thi, sammaasati etc.? 44025 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 7:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] sutta and abhidhamma. nilovg Hi TG, Yes, very necessary to also read and consider suttas, I could not agree more. I like your remarks, I just thought of the sense objects this morning. We learn in the Abhidhamma about the objects experienced through the six doors, but we have to apply this in life through the development of insight. We had on the Pali list the sutta: Here is AN 6.01.05,6 and 7 A"nguttaranikaayo The Gradated Collection Chakkanipaatapaa.li Group of Sixes 1. Aahuneyyavaggo Group One: Worthiness of Adoration 5. Pa.thama-aajaaniiyasutta.m ...Here, o Bhikkhus, a king's lucky, thoroughbred horse is patient in regards to sights, patient in regards to sounds, patient in regards to smells, patient in regards to tastes, patient in regards to sensations, and is endowed with beauty. ... Here, o Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu is patient in regards to sights, patient in regards to sounds, patient in regards to smells, patient in regards to tastes, patient in regards to sensations, patient in regards to ideas.... The PtS transl: he endures these objects. The sutta gives us an extra stimulant to be aware now of the objects appearing through the six doors. These objects are not always so pleasant. There were conditions for me to experience an unpleasant object, some harsh speech, but the sutta reminded me to face it with understanding. We cannot yet escape from nama and rupa! You use the word sensibility, true, the sutta reminds us: all this is our life now. All we learn about the sensedoors are to be applied by developing insight. Nina. op 04-04-2005 03:17 schreef TGrand458@... op TGrand458@...: > I have respect for the Abhidhamma as being an ingenius systemization of the > Buddha's teaching. I take Abhidhamma as being an assist to understanding the > Suttas. The Buddha's teaching in the Suttas have a very carefully crafted > sensibility to them that is lacking in Abhidhamma. If one studies Abhidhamma > without deeply ingraining the overall sensibility found in the Suttas, I > believe > it is very easy to go off on a wrong tangent. (Its easy enough anyway.) 44026 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 7:40am Subject: Re:thinking processes. buddhistmeditat... Dear Azita - Thank you for initiating the discussion. It is true that firm rememberance - an aspect of sanna - is weakened by intoxicants like alcoholic drinks. Some friends of mine can drink several glasses (even mixing drinks of different kinds) and still can drive back home safely. I think they might counterbalance the alcohol effect by sati on the danger of drunk driving. So, in them the sanna of danger arose and the alcoholic effect was lessened. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > dear Nina and Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > op 01-04-2005 02:39 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > > > > N: Firm sanna is the proximate cause of sati of satipatthana. We > learn > > > again and again about nama and rupa, about their different > > > characteristics. And when we listened and considered a great > deal, and > > > intellecual understanding has been accumulated sufficiently, it > can be > > > immediately known when nama appears to the sati and when rupa. No > need > > > to say it or define it. > > > > > Azita: On reading this again, another aspect of Sanna occurred to > me, in relation to the 5th precept - refrain from intoxicants. If it > takes firm rememberance of intellectual understanding, to be a > conditon for sati to arise in some future time, then the taking of > intoxicants hinders that remembrance, to a greater or lesser degree > depending on the being, I suppose. What do you think? > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. 44027 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unchanging, For All Times TGrand458@... In a message dated 4/3/2005 8:10:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, jonoabb@... writes: Your closing remark is a point well made. The crux of the matter here is whether the Buddha taught the importance of knowing as they are the different kinds of consciousness and their objects. Jon Hi Jon I agree with this statement. What we may not completely agree on is -- what the Buddha wanted us to know about them... or ... in how to know them so that samsara is overcome. TG 44028 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 3:03pm Subject: Re: Vipassana ( Ken H & Htoo 2nd discussion) kenhowardau Dear Htoo, Thank you for continuing the discussion: -------------------------------------- H: > When I saw the sentence 'Breathing in long, he knows he breathes in long', I was shocked. Like you I did not accept in my mind regarding that sentence. If you re-read 'Vipassana' post (the source of this discussion) you will see what I have written on the whole matter. --------------------------------------- You agreed in an earlier post that vipassana was not a 'set of steps to be followed,' and so I know that you look beyond conventional understanding when studying suttas. A conventional understanding assumes that satipatthana begins with mindfulness of concepts, which leads to mindfulness of nama and rupa, which leads to mindfulness of Nibbana. In fact, there is only the present moment: there is no time for preliminary steps. --------------------------- KH: > > You should also have stressed that *strenuous* practice is not > > good effort. Htoo: > Is Venerable Ananda's *strenuous* practice not good effort? He was already a sotapanna at that time while he was strenuously practising vipassana in order to rocket up to arahatta magga. > ---------------------------- I was suggesting that anyone who strives (in the conventional sense) to attain enlightenment is not on the right path. As I understand the suttas, striving involves the idea of a self who can be annihilated, while laziness (standing still) involves the idea of a self who can live forever. The Middle Way is kusala citta with joy or equanimity plus right understanding. Right effort is not strenuous in the sense of being burdensome: it is "lovely at the beginning, lovely at the middle and lovely at the end." ---------------- KH: > > An example is someone sitting stoically and happy with his or her own sitting power. It might be subtle lobha and it might also be wrong view (of control over dhammas - belief in the efficacy of rite and ritual). Htoo: > I will leave this part. ---------------- If you don't want to talk about, I won't badger you. However, you were a little bit critical of people who did not practise sitting meditation - suggesting there was subtle lobha for intellectual understanding. I was suggesting that the danger can be even greater for people who do practise sitting meditation. ------------------ KH: > > You will have noticed that the majority of DSG members believe in formal sitting. Htoo: > If so, I will be really happy. But what I noticed was some were in the middle of lokiiya mess like 'driving' 'swimming'. ------------------ Do you mean some go about their normal daily-life activities? I think that is the only option - considering vipassana is 'right understanding of the present moment' and there is no preliminary set of steps. -------------------------- H: > I think you are talking 'daily life vipassana'. But when I wrote on 'Vipassana' post, I just went through mahasatipatthana sutta and just fit with my vipassana experience. In the later part 'sight and sound' will be involved. But what I discussed was that 'when concentrating on movement phenomena of the body all other sense doors are apparently shut. I did not say 'sight and sound' has to be thrown away. > -------------------------- I find the first part of the sutta hard to follow. That's why I would like you to write about it again - identifying the individual cittas involved. But doesn't that first part describe the normal daily life of bhikkhu who has mastered jhana (with breath as object) and who practises jhana and vipassana in tandem? ------------------------------------------------- H: > > > Did The Buddha say 'Vipassana must be allowed to arise > > > naturally at any time in daily life'? KH: > > See my above quote from the Mahasatipatthana Sutta. Htoo: > You did not quote a sutta. -------------------------------------------------- I was referring to where I quoted: " . . . when looking toward & looking away...when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, . . ." There is no supernatural power by which we can decree, "Let there be vipassana now!" So a bhikkhu carries on as normal, allowing right understanding to arise to the extent that conditions permit. ------------------- Htoo: > Anaagam Saya Thet Kyi taught Sayagyi U Ba Khin. Sayagyi U Ba Khin taught SN Goenka. But I have no idea why you said 'it is contrary to the Dhamma'. Which words, which part of instructions or teachings are contrary to the Dhamma? ------------------- I have only heard audiotapes and seen a couple of videotapes of SN Goenka, and he struck me as a wise, witty, charismatic, compassionate man. I know now, however, that he made the same mistake that all of us are prone to make when we cannot see the Middle Way: he believed in trying to control dhammas. In particular, he taught formal meditation. :-) Ken H 44029 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 4:55pm Subject: Re: Vipassana ( Ken H & Htoo 2nd discussion) kenhowardau Hi Carl, I am flattered to be mentioned in the same sentence as Htoo. Unfortunately, however, my Abhidhamma studies are still at the introductory level. Enthusiasm for anatta gives me the confidence to mix it with the best of them. :-) Ken H > Carl writes: I hope this discussion will continue. I very much > appreciate Htoo posting "vipassana". The strong points being raised > are very instructive to me as a lay student. I would wish for no one > to become frustrated in views. It is good (for me) to see such > learned Abhidhamists "butting heads" over something as important as > vipassana "practice". 44030 From: "alpha16draconis" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 5:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is cittuppada? alpha16draconis > Htoo Naing, Thank you for clarifying that distinction. Stephen. 44031 From: "mnease" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 5:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (294) mlnease Hi Nina, Thanks, with Htoo's comments this is beginning to make sense. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (294) Hi Mike, true jhana has to be accompanied by sati and paññaa, otherwise it is not real jhana, but only what may be erroneaously taken for jhana. Nina. op 03-04-2005 20:44 schreef mnease op mlnease@...: > Thanks Htoo, I found this very helpful and interesting too. Sorry if you've > covered this already, but can even the 2nd and 4th aruupajhaanas--with > paramattha dhammas as objects--still be micchaasamaadhi if unaccompanied by > sammaadi.t.thi, sammaasati etc.? 44032 From: "mlnease" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 5:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (294) mlnease Hi Kel, Please excuse the slow response: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Mike, > > I find it useful to remember it's 3 value logic, not 2. Your > question make it sound like you think other jhanas can be > accompanied by miccha-samadi. All akusala won't be accompanied by > samma-anything. Some are accompanied by miccha and some doesn't > have either. Hence the 3 value are like: pleasant, unpleasant and > neutral feelings. By the same token all kusala won't be accompanied > by miccha-anything. Some might lack samma but it falls > into "neutral" category which lacks both. Technically though all > kusala cittas are accompanied by sati. Also all jhana cittas have > panna, only 4/8 maha-kusala cittas lack panna. Yes, '3 value' is the key I think, this dovetails nicely with Htoo's and Nina's explanations. (Funny, this was the solution to a long- sought database problem I had years ago...) Thanks again. mike 44033 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 7:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Unchanging, For All Times jonoabb Hi TG --- TGrand458@... wrote: > > In a message dated 4/3/2005 8:10:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, > jonoabb@... writes: > Your closing remark is a point well made. The crux of the matter here > is whether the Buddha taught the importance of knowing as they are the > different kinds of consciousness and their objects. > > Jon > > Hi Jon > > I agree with this statement. It's good to find some agreement ;-)). > What we may not completely agree on is -- what > the Buddha wanted us to know about them... or ... in how to know them so > that samsara is overcome. Before we can discuss what is to be known about 'them', we need to be agreed about what 'them' is, and it seems to me that it is on this that we do not completely agree. To me, the 'different kinds of consciousness and their objects' is a way of summarising the ayatanas and/or the elements, and these in turn are ways of classifying dhammas. To give a example, at the moment of seeing closet door, the dhammas appearing could be either seeing, visible object, or thinking (but not hardness, and not a composite state). Only a dhamma that is actually appearing can be known as it truly is. A composite state has no individual characteristic by which it can be known/experienced. Jon 44034 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 8:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Spoke with Bhikkhu Bodhi last night Re: insight knowledges jonoabb Hi Andrew --- Andrew Levin wrote: ... > After the service, which was based on Samyutta Nikaya 75-77 (I don't > have a copy so I don't know if this is enough to identify the sutta, > but it was regarding a deity asking the Buddha about the nature of > things in the world.), I waited for a spot, and got down on my knees > in front of him, told him I'd been reading his book, "The Noble > Eightfold Path," and had gotten most of the supplementary reading. > Now he had written that volume not in exhaustive detail, (the reason > for the recommended reading was added in the back), and I was unclear > on the best way to proceed with mindfulness of breathing, > specifically towards acheiving the insight knowledges. I asked if he > had any ideas on what to read further on that or any alternative > ideas than described in either his book or the others, and he told me > that mindfulness of breathing is *not* the only contemplation that > will elicit the insight knowledges. So I take this to mean that > other contemplations, like the contemplation on the repulsive nature > of the body, or the contemplation on the four elements, could yield > the desired result, too. In addition, he told me to continue with > mindfulness of breathing, even though it is a difficult meditation > subject. ... You were very fortunate to have the opportunity to listen to Bhikkhu Bodhi. He has a considerable knowledge of the texts, and a pleasant, unassuming manner. I think it's unfortunate you did not have the chance to put specific questions to BB, of the kind we discuss here. But I appreciate that the format of the occasion was fixed; in the circumstances, you made the most of the opportunities available. While I have a lot of respect for Bhikkhu Bodhi's scholarship, I think when it comes to 'practice' one needs to consider any advice given very carefully against the whole of the Tipitaka. In particular, I think that advice given in the circumstances of your meeting should be taken as something to reflect on and consider, rather than to 'go out and do', and I'm sure this would have been how it was intended by BB himself. Just a couple of points about mindfulness of breathing. First, this is not a practice that was recommended by the Buddha for all and sundry. If you read the sutta references carefully, you'll see it was mentioned in the context of monks who were leading a certain lifestyle and in whom mindfulness and concentration were already highly developed. Secondly, although mindfulness of breathing can be developed in conjunction with insight, it is not itself the development of insight. My suggestion would be to focus your effort on your own study of the texts, rather than placing too much reliance on the writings or opinions of others. I think you'll find that much of what is contained in 'practice guides' is the author's own idea and is not directly supported by the texts. Hope you find this helpful. Jon 44035 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Akusala cittas nilovg Dear Htoo, thank you for answering about anutiika. Just a remark about the child's wrong view. It is so dofficult to tell, unless the child speaks out: there is no kamma. But here there may perhaps be only moha. He is too small for expressing wrong view or even think of kamma and vipaaka. I am just going away and cannot attend to your answer this week. Nina. op 04-04-2005 14:54 schreef Htoo Naing op htootintnaing@...: > The fifth lobha citta is seen as in a case of a child while he is listening > his parents' talking interestingly. He is not particularly happy because he > does not fully understand adult's speech. But as there is lobha he is > listening actively. There is wrong view as he does not know kamma well. And no > one is urging him to listen. 44036 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 10:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 kenhowardau Hi Charles, Thanks for your reply, and don't worry about being too busy to post: there is no hurry. --------------------- KH: > > I see what you mean, however, the conditioned dhamma known as faith (saddha), is not blind faith: it is confidence in wholesomeness. Saddha could never 'block out the Truth.' ............................................. C: > It is blind when the faith is not based on the "experience" (i.e., seen, heard,etc...) as the truth. When you think it is true because it is logical, or a teacher --including the Buddha--, etc..., convinces you of its truth. I have no-clue what you could mean by: "Saddha could never 'block out the Truth.'" ------------- I agreed that faith, in the ordinary sense of the word, could be wholesome or unwholesome. When it is unwholesome [blind] faith it can, as you said, "block you from seeing the truth." Then I said, "However, the conditioned dhamma known as faith (saddha) is not blind faith; it is confidence in wholesomeness." Do you see the difference? An absolute reality always has the same characteristics, function and manifestation. Saddha can only be kusala: it can never be akusala. So, for example, it could never "block you from seeing the truth." --------------------------------- KH: > > . . . Therefore, it is not justifiable to think of faith or doubt <. . .> in those ways. To think of either of them, "This is mine," is to have attachment (lobha); "This am I" is to have conceit (mana), and, "This is my self," is to have wrong view (miccha-ditthi). They are unwholesome (akusala) misconceptions. .............................................. C: > I don't understand what you are trying to say. ------------------- I was simply trying to say what the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta says. There can't be right understanding of a dhamma when it is conceived with the notion, "This is mine" "This am I" or "This is my self." Do you have a different interpretation? ------------------------------- KH: > > I would suggest that other disciplines (e.g., music, science, sport, religion) could be effectively studied and practised with unwholesome (as well as wholesome) consciousness. The Dhamma, however, requires purely kusala study and purely kusala practice. .............................. C: > Wrong again, I know of killers who use Dhamma to sharpen their skills as killers. Now if you consider killing as wholesome, well ... What is a "purely kusala study and purely kusala practice?" -------------------- If we are listening to a Dhamma talk for the wrong reasons - attachment, aversion or ignorance - then that listening will not lead to insight. Killers might listen to a Dhamma talk in order to sharpen their killing skills, but that is not Dhamma study: it won't increase their insight, and it won't lead to enlightenment. As uninstructed worldlings, we can be pretty sure most of our listening will be for the wrong reasons (including subtle attachment). However, if there is a moment when the Dhamma is heard with non-attachment and non-aversion, then there is kusala consciousness at that one precious moment, and progress towards insight will be made. ---------------- C: > Have you experienced this as true, or do you except this by faith? Often, faith and doubt, is what keeps you trapped; lost in I, me, and mine. ---------------- I am trying to say that I don't see Dhamma study and Dhamma practice in quite the same way you do. Rather than have conventional theories about faith, doubt, love, hate, and all the other mental factors, I just want to understand the actual dhammas; saddha, vicikiccha, adosa, dosa, and so on. So for me, Dhamma study is the study of dhammas. That might seem dry and impersonal, but it is the only way to go (in my opinion). ------------------------- C: > > > So you disagree with the Kalama suttra? A case in point: The Buddha claimed that experience is the truth you should accept as real (Ref:Kalama Suttra). However, scientist today have proven that the senses can be fooled, therefore what you experience may not be real. This is a contradiction, and you should be asking your- self, "So what can be relied on as Truth/real?" ------------------------- K: > > I like that, and I agree entirely. ................................................ C: > So are you ready to go for the Masters? ------------------ I agreed for reasons that you might consider wrong reasons. And then I rambled on with a lot of rubbish that doesn't mean much to me - now that I look at it again. The Kalama Sutta is hard to interpret. At first sight, it seems to be saying that doubt (vicikiccha) can be a good thing. But vicikiccha is an unwholesome paramattha dhamma - it can never be a good thing. As you have often said, difficulty in explaining indicates a shaky grasp of the subject matter. I might leave it to others to explain my understanding of the Kalama Sutta. :-) I will just say that the KS is frequently misquoted. Contrary many popular interpretations, it does not tell us to value our own experiences above the teaching of a Buddha. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Hi Ken, > > I am back to work so posting will be slow again. > > 44037 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Apr 4, 2005 11:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 christine_forsy... Hello KenH, Charles,and all, This is from Bhikkhu Bodhi's article on "A look at the Kalama Sutta" "On the basis of a single passage, quoted out of context, the Buddha has been made out to be a pragmatic empiricist who dismisses all doctrine and faith, and whose Dhamma is simply a freethinker's kit to truth which invites each one to accept and reject whatever he likes. But does the Kalama Sutta really justify such views? Or do we meet in these claims just another set of variations on that egregious old tendency to interpret the Dhamma according to whatever notions are congenial to oneself -- or to those to whom one is preaching?" http://www.vipassana.com/resources/bodhi/look_at_kalama_sutta.php metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" < C: > > > So you disagree with the Kalama suttra? > A case in point: > The Buddha claimed that experience is the truth you should accept as > real (Ref:Kalama Suttra). However, scientist today have proven that > the senses can be fooled, therefore what you experience may not be > real. This is a contradiction, and you should be asking your- > self, "So what can be relied on as Truth/real?" > ------------------------- > K: > > I like that, and I agree entirely. > ................................................ > > C: > So are you ready to go for the Masters? > ------------------ > > I agreed for reasons that you might consider wrong reasons. And then > I rambled on with a lot of rubbish that doesn't mean much to me - > now that I look at it again. The Kalama Sutta is hard to interpret. > At first sight, it seems to be saying that doubt (vicikiccha) can be > a good thing. But vicikiccha is an unwholesome paramattha dhamma - > it can never be a good thing. > > As you have often said, difficulty in explaining indicates a shaky > grasp of the subject matter. I might leave it to others to explain > my understanding of the Kalama Sutta. :-) > > I will just say that the KS is frequently misquoted. Contrary many > popular interpretations, it does not tell us to value our own > experiences above the teaching of a Buddha. > > Ken H 44038 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Akusala cittas htootintnaing Dear Nina, You wrote: Dear Htoo, thank you for answering about anutiika. Just a remark about the child's wrong view. It is so dofficult to tell, unless the child speaks out: there is no kamma. But here there may perhaps be only moha. He is too small for expressing wrong view or even think of kamma and vipaaka. I am just going away and cannot attend to your answer this week. Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, When you are back this message will be ready for you. The example of the child case is just ordinary example. There are many possibilities when there is rapid flow of cittas in succession. Thinking of kamma etc is not the case. It is just for understanding of beginners. Example child, if he is a born sotapanna will not have any ditthi or wrong view. Here there need not any thinking. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44039 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma jonoabb Hi Geoff (and Matthew) Just a comment on your discussion about consciousness vs. brain. --- sunnaloka wrote: ... > The sum *is* greater than its parts. Consciousness as a > phenomenon `is more than' its component material processes > precisely > because it has interior subjectivity/depth, which its parts could > never have because they are of a lower level of organization. That > is, they are exterior surface phenomena. No molecule or even complex > arrangement of molecules `possesses' consciousness. > Consciousness is > a higher order phenomenon, which in human beings is capable of not > only appreciating the organic complexity of the human brain, but is > also capable of employing fantastic qualitative measurements > involving logic and truth status and ethical priority, etc.. In the Dhamma, 'consciousness' is the name given to a particular class of phenomena that can be directly expereinced. It is not to be confused with the conventional concept of consciousness (and it has nothing to do with brain, which is not a phenomenon that is experienced at all in our life). The seeing that is occurring right now is a kind of consciousness. It is a phenomenon of a kind completely different from the visible object that is seen now -- that phenomeneon does not experience an object. > But this doesn't (necessarily) make consciousness any more real > than > brain. Consciousness, because it is dependent upon it's parts, is > therefore empty of any inherently existing own-nature (to use > Madhyamika phrasing). Just as the brain is dependent upon cells. And > cells are dependent upon molecules. The 'phenomena' of the Dhamma have no component parts -- if they did then those component parts, and not the compounded entity, would be the phenomena spoken of ;-)) Jon 44040 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking processes. jonoabb Hi Tep (and Azita) --- Tep Sastri wrote: ... > It is true that firm rememberance - an aspect of sanna - is weakened > by intoxicants like alcoholic drinks. Some friends of mine can drink > several glasses (even mixing drinks of different kinds) and still can > drive back home safely. I think they might counterbalance the alcohol > effect by sati on the danger of drunk driving. So, in them the sanna > of danger arose and the alcoholic effect was lessened. This sounds like a classic case of alcohol-induced mis-perception (and/or post-event rationalisation)! I don't like their chances of successfully defending a drunk-driving charge ;-)) Jon 44041 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 2:04am Subject: Re: Vipassana ( Ken H & Htoo 2nd discussion) htootintnaing Dear Ken H, Thanks for your reply. As I agree almost all parts of the message, I will not reply as 'my usual way'. The only area is 'I will leave it'. There you commented that I was a bit critical about 'not practising'. Now I know your point. I am flexible one. I like your smile :-) regarding 'formal meditation'. And I agree that 'formal meditation' may well be ritual. But I am still not well digested regarding this point of 'formal meditation' even though I accept your explanation. Sarah could not help me clear in that matter like you. Amara of DSList accused me of 'such thing'. She also could not help people clearly. When I wrote 60 messages which were just conventionalising of mahasatipatthana sutta, some did not agree and there were many complaints. The worst is one who is not the current member of DSG. I will leave it alone. I have a plan to check all my 60 messages with second approach as if I had not written them. I have a plan to write on 'mahasatipatthana sutta' with original Pali, their translations, their interpretation with abhidhamma terms and so on. But I am not sure I will have enough time. With much respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > Thank you for continuing the discussion: > > -------------------------------------- > H: > When I saw the sentence 'Breathing in long, he knows he > breathes in long', I was shocked. Like you I did not accept in my > mind regarding that sentence. If you re-read 'Vipassana' post (the > source of this discussion) you will see what I have written on the > whole matter. --- snip --- snip --- In particular, > he taught formal meditation. > :-) > > Ken H 44042 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 2:05am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H jonoabb Hi Evan (and KenH) --- Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: > > Ken > > In your post you state: > > I should add that, in my humble opinion, there are no genuine jhana > meditators in the world today. > > Could you please elaborate on this because I don't understand your > meaning here. I think what KenH may mean is that there are lots of people nowadays who claim to have attained jhanas (and who even claim to be able to teach it in a course!) but that if you look at what they have to say about the development of samatha/jhana, it doesn't match with the ancient texts on the subject. Jon 44043 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (294) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Hi Mike, true jhana has to be accompanied by sati and paññaa, otherwise it is not real jhana, but only what may be erroneaously taken for jhana. Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Mike, Nina, and interested members, Yes. Jhanas are always accompanied by 'sati' and 'panna'. Otherwise they are not real jhana. In Myanmar 'jhana' is used as an ordinary term sometimes. Example is 'He is in jhana of reading' 'He is in jhana of fishing' 'He is in jhana of love-making' etc etc. There are 7 jhanangas 1. vitakka 2. vicaara 3. piiti 4. somanassa 5. domanassa 6. ekaggataa 7. upekkhaa Domanassa is a jhananga. It is also a compoent of jhana. But here it is akusala jhana. When wars were going to happen, the leaders did have this 'domanassa jhananga' and this led to breaking out of wars. So usage has to be confined to specific things. When we talk jhana in the setting of 'Theravada Buddhism' it is rupavacara rupa jhana and arupavacara arupa jhana. Jhana is not akusala in that setting. Again, even in that 'realm of citta' that is rupavacara rupa jhana and arupavacara arupa jhana, they may not be Bodhipakkhiya dhamma. Example jhanas are jhanas of ancient hermits and jhanas of 2 teachers of Bodhisattas. Their jhanas were full of kusala. There were sati and panna. But they lacked 'anicca-sanna, anicca-panna, anatta-sanna, anatta-panna'. So their jhana even though they were genuine 'arupavacara arupa jhana' which were kusala dhamma are not 'samma-samaadhi' of Noble Eightfold Path of 37 Bodhipakkhiya dhamma. Because they never obtained Bodhi Nana at all. Even true jhana may not be 'right-concentration' or 'samma-samaadhi' when there is no 'right-view' or 'samma-ditthi'. Here again, jhanalabhii do not have ditthi when they are in jhana. But if they are not of the disciples of The Buddha or if they themselves are not Paccekkabuddhas, their jhanas are not 'samma-samaadhi'. Akusala jhanas are no way to be assumed as 'samma-samaadhi'. With respect, Htoo Naing 44046 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 2:53am Subject: Dhamma Thread (300) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Arupa brahma beings and their patisandhi cittas or rebirth consciousness, their bhavanga cittas or life-continuing consciousness, and their cuti cittas or life-ending consciousness have been discussed in the previous post. As soon as they are reborn in arupa brahma bhumis or realm, the first citta is one of 4 arupavipaka cittas serving as patisandhi citta or linking consciousness, which is in the place of rebirth consciousness. This citta just lasts a moment and it is immediately followed bt many mnay bhavanga cittas, which are also the same citta like the patisandhi citta. But entity-wise, timing-wise bhavanga cittas are totally different from the patisandhi citta and function also differs. At a point, the flow of bhavanga cittas stops and there arises the first vithi citta. Even though these arupa brahma beings are beings without any rupa they do have cittas or consciousness. Their namakkhandhas are called 4 namakkhandhaa. Because there are 'vedanakkhandhas, sannakkhandhas, sankharakkhandhas, and vinnanakkhandhas' only and there is no rupakkhandha at all. Vedanakkhandha is (vedana + kkhandhaa) and vedana is feeling, khandhaa is aggregate. Sanna is perception. Sankhara is mental formations such as volition (cetana), attention (manasikara), contact (phassa) etc etc. And vinnanaa here is 'citta' in the purest form. But no citta exists in a single entity but there always is 4 namakkhandhas of vedana, sanna, sankhara, and vinnana and these 4 are inseparable and they behave as if a kind of juice which composes water, sugar, salt, taste etc and inseparable. This is according to 'sampayutta paccaya' as The Buddha preached in Patthana. What is the first vithi citta in arupa brahmas? May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44047 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 2:55am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (299) htootintnaing Dear Mods, I just re-post DT (300) because the heading was not changed. Could you please delete the exact copy of 300 with the heading '299' ? Thanks in advance. Htoo Naing 44048 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 3:26am Subject: Dhamma Thread (301) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, What is the first vithi citta in arupa brahmas? The first vithi citta that arises in arupa brahmas is manodvara- avajjana citta. This citta which is mind-door-adverting consciousness just passes away and it is immediately followed by the first jhavana series in respective arupa brahmas. This javana citta is not arupavacara citta even though the host being is an arupa brahma. But the citta which is the first javana citta in that arupa brahma is kaamaavacara citta and it is akusala citta. This akusala citta is lobha mula citta. There are 7 successive lobha javana cittas. Depending on accumulation of the respective arupa brahma there may or may not follow continuing lobha javana cittas. If arupa brahma in question is a puthujana arupa brahma he may continue to have lobha javana in vithi after vithi inbetween which are arupa bhavanga cittas of arupavipaka cittas. If arupa brahma in question is anagami arupa brahma there will not be very long lobha javana as in case of puthujana arupa brahma. When paccavakkhana javana arises and looks into the foregoing cittas and find that it is just kaamaavacara javana, the arupa brahma with greater accumulation will contemplate on the matter and he will soon switch on arupa jhana as arupakusala javana cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44049 From: Htoo Naing Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 4:02am Subject: Non-Beautiful Consciousness htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 30 asobhana cittas or non-beautiful consciousness. 12 akusala cittas or 12 unwholesome consciousness are also non-beautiful consciousness. They are 8 lobha mula citta or attachment-rooted consciousness, 2 dosa mula citta or aversion-rooted consciousness and 2 moha mula cittas or ignorance-rooted consciousness. Other non-beautiful cittas are 18 ahetuka cittas or 18 root-less consciousness. Even though they are not akusala cittas they are called non-beautiful consciousness because they do not carry any hetu or root as in beautiful consciousness like dvihetuka sobhana cittas or double-rooted consciousness and tihetuka sobhana cittas or triple-rooted consciousness. Hetu or root-dhamma are 1.alobha or non-attachment, 2.adosa or non-aversion, which is also known as metta, 3.amoha or non-ignorance, which is also known as panna or wisdom, 4.lobha or attchment, 5.dosa or aversion, and 6.moha or ignorance. When all of these 6 root dhammas do not arise in cittas they are called rootless consciousness or ahetuka citta. As they do not have beautiful cetasikas like alobha, adosa, and amoha they are called asobhana citta or non-beautiful consciousness. Again these 18 ahetuka cittas or rootless consciousness can be divided into three separate groups. They are 7 akusala vipakacittas or 7 unwholesome-resultant consciousness, 8 kusalavipakacittas or 8 wholesome-resultant consciousness and 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas or 3 rootless-functional consciousness. Ahetuka means rootless that is absence of all 6 roots. Vipaka means the results. Kiriya means ' just performance and there is no kammic force left due to that performance'. There are 7 ahetuka akusala vipakacittas. They are_ 1. upekkha sahagatam cakkhuvinnana citta 2. upekkha sahagatam sotavinnana citta 3. upekkha sagagatam ghanavinnana citta 4. upekkha sahagatam jivhavinnana citta 5. dukkha sahagatam kayavinnana citta 6. upekkha sahagatam sampaticchana citta 7. upekkha sahagatam santirana citta Cakkhu means 'related to eye'. Vinnana is made of 'vi' and 'nana'. Vi means distinctinct, particular, special. Nana means knowledge. So vinnana are special knowledge. When a citta arise at eye while seeing a colour, that citta particularly knows the colour. No other citta can know the colour. So it is a form of vinnana citta. Sota means 'related to ear', ghana means 'related to nose', jivha means 'related to tongue', kaya means 'related to physical body'. Dukkha means ' feeling of hard to bear' or bodily pain or discomfort . Sampaticchana is made up of sam which means 'well' and paticchana which means ' receiving'. So sampaticchana citta is well-receiving consciousness that receives the object transferred by the former citta which arose just before its arising. Santirana is made up of san which means ' well ' and tirana which means 'appropriately investigating'. So santirana citta is a consciousness that looks into the object of sampaticchana to work out what it is. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44050 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 4:05am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Ken > > In your post you state: > > I should add that, in my humble opinion, there are no genuine jhana > meditators in the world today. > > Could you please elaborate on this because I don't understand your > meaning here. > > Hi Evan, Many people base their Buddhist practices on jhana, but it seems that they do so in spite of ancient Theravada texts rather than because of them. Jhana is much harder than commonly thought. It is theoretically possible only for those humans and heavenly beings whose rebirth (patisandhi) citta is accompanied by all three noble root-conditions (alobha, adosa and amoha). Satipatthana, by comparison, is less demanding: it can be practised by beings with only amoha and adosa root-conditions. My knowledge of the subject comes only from DSG discussions. There are several relevant posts in the files, and, rather than put them into my own words, I will simply cut and paste from one of them. It was alleged that some DSG people were discouraging others from practising jhana. In message 11565, Kom listed ten possible reasons why that might not be such a bad thing. Kom did not say definitely that no one on the world today was practising genuine jhana. That was my opinion, but I based it on the same type of information that he gives here: ----------- > Possible reasons why some people in DSG seem to dissuade people from Jhana: 1) Satipatthana (knowing realities as they are) is the path to nibbana.Even if you develop Jhana, you would have to develop satipatthana to reach nibbana. There is no dispute (even within DSG!) about this point as far as I know. 2) As nibbana attainment is the highest fruit of the Buddha's teaching, it is of paramount importance for a beginner (like I am) to first learn what Satipatthana is, and what realities are. Learning about this is already overwhelming to some of us. 3) Beyond studying realities and satipatthana, it is important to develop all kinds of kusala (wholesome deeds, words, and thoughts) knowing that without these development, reaching nibbana is impossible. I believe the Buddha taught that all kusala states (for the right reasons) are supportive of reaching nibbana. Jhana, as a kusala state, clearly falls within this parameter. 4) Developing other kusala states (besides Jhana) can happen for everybody, in their everyday life, regardless of what life they take (householder or a monk), and what their accumulations are. Learning about other kinds of kusala states that are very natural in our daily life as a householder are already surprisingly intricate and detailed. Before learning about Buddhism, did you know that the joy that rises after seeing other people doing good deeds can be wholesome states? 5) Jhana is said to be a kuru-kamma (a heavy kamma that if retained just before death, it will give results immediately in the next life) that gives result for a long time (at least 1 kappa, in the first rupa plane). Because of this, it is extremely hard to develop, and only few people with the right accumulations can develop this. 6) Learning how to develop Jhana is most likely to be as intricate as learning about satipathana and about realities conceptually. How many people in DSG truly devote their time to learning about the intiricacies of Jhana? As far as I can tell, none of the people that you may think of (certainly, people I think of) as DSG institution devote their time to doing this. 7) The texts say this about Jhana: a) Have 10 obstacles (pari-potha), versus just 1 for satipathana b) Extremely hard to maintain c) Most people that were mentioned to develop Jhana clearly see faults in the 5 sensualities. 8) Getting more controversial: a) The 10 obstacles mentioned are virtually impossible to overcome with a life of a householder who so much enjoy the 5 sensualities. b) Having just one strong desire will force you to start over from the beginning. How many Jatakas about Bodhisatta that you have seen where the bodhisatta lost all his Jhana attainment because he saw a beautiful woman? Are you married? Are you engaged in sexual relationship? Now, the probability of the attainment is becoming less and less. c) Do you see faults of the 5 sensualities? Are you willing to attenuate, very substantially, the seeking / exposures to the 5 sensualities in everyday life? Or is this a temporary thing? d) Many people are attracted to Buddhism because the mediation offers "peace" in dailylife. The peace they are after is unlikely to be the "right" peace, and is not the highest fruit. Peace in Buddhism at the minimum means kusala, with Jhana being higher kusala, with nibbana being the highest peace. 9) Really controversial: a) Nowadays, Many people who think they are developing Jhana are deluded. They can't tell the difference between the kusala states and states with attachment (lobha) and delusion (moha). Take anapanasati for example. Try observing your breath right now. If you are like me, the feeling of that observation will be neutral. Is that kusala or akusala? If you can't tell the difference, then you can't develop Jhana through Anapanasati. Now, try take something simpler, development through compassion (karuna). Pick you kid. When you do something for your kid when he is in pain, it can be either because of the attachment you have for your kid, or for the kusala compassion you have for him. Can you tell the difference? One gauge that was given is that if you equivalently treat other people (not the one you know or like) in the same situation, it is likely to be compassion. Without being able to tell the difference between kusala and akusala state, you can't develop this to the level of total absorption. b) Jhana attainment is not neccessary to attain the path. The tipitaka mentioned instances of Ariyans without Jhana attainments. c) People develop tranquil meditation believe that by doing this, the wisdom will become sharper when observing other realities. Some people think that panna at the patti-patti (practice) level can only become sharper because there are development of panna (about realities) at all levels, not because of the tranquility that one might attain via tranquil meditation. 10) A point I have heard, remembered, but haven't bought into: Developing tranquil meditation nowadays is only possible to the level of upacara (access concentration), but not Jhana (total absorption). I think my conclusion is that it only feels like that there seems to be a institutional discouragement only because: I) Priority of learning II) Hard to verify the genuine instances of Jhana development. III) Unclear if needed for path attainment. Kom > ---------------------- Kind regards, Ken H 44051 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 5:16am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... Jon, Thanks for explaining that. I have come across people who claim to attain jhana regularly in practice but I remember thinking at the time that their description of what their jhanic state was did not coincide with the suttas and other descriptions I had read. Thanks, Evan Hi Evan (and KenH) --- Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: > > Ken > > In your post you state: > > I should add that, in my humble opinion, there are no genuine jhana > meditators in the world today. > > Could you please elaborate on this because I don't understand your > meaning here. I think what KenH may mean is that there are lots of people nowadays who claim to have attained jhanas (and who even claim to be able to teach it in a course!) but that if you look at what they have to say about the development of samatha/jhana, it doesn't match with the ancient texts on the subject. Jon 44052 From: "rahula_80" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 5:20am Subject: Meditation/Stess/Research rahula_80 Hi, Can anyone give me a few references to researches (in journal etc) that supports the view that meditation reduces stress. Thanks, Rahula 44053 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 5:39am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... Ken, I'd like to address some of the points you make and get your thoughts on them: -- Ken Hi Evan, Many people base their Buddhist practices on jhana, but it seems that they do so in spite of ancient Theravada texts rather than because of them. -- Evan So many of the suttas have the Buddha explaining that a bukkhu totally secluded from sense pleasures etc... attains first jhana, second.... fourth jhana... and then other attainments. So as far as I can see, the Buddha is exhorting us to practice the jhanas. -- Ken Jhana is much harder than commonly thought. It is theoretically possible only for those humans and heavenly beings whose rebirth (patisandhi) citta is accompanied by all three noble root-conditions (alobha, adosa and amoha). Satipatthana, by comparison, is less demanding: it can be practised by beings with only amoha and adosa root-conditions. -- Evan There is no question that for a householder, especially in the western world which is drowning in sense pleasure, this is an exceedingly difficult task. Possibly, however, on a reasonably long retreat with a suitable experienced Buddhist monk as the teacher, one could attain jhana (for what it's "worth"). -- Ken My knowledge of the subject comes only from DSG discussions. There are several relevant posts in the files, and, rather than put them into my own words, I will simply cut and paste from one of them. It was alleged that some DSG people were discouraging others from practising jhana. In message 11565, Kom listed ten possible reasons why that might not be such a bad thing. Kom did not say definitely that no one on the world today was practising genuine jhana. That was my opinion, but I based it on the same type of information that he gives here: -- Evan I think that there are many Theravadin Buddhist monks who can attain jhana without difficulty - up to fourth jhana and beyond. Rather than reproduce the rest of the email response and respond on a line by line basis, I would like to make a general comment that I was under the impression that the 8-fold noble path was divided into 3 broad areas: virtue, concentration and wisdom. Even though each is not independent of the other, they do tend to build on each other. One that has not practiced virtue and therefore has an agitated mind can find it extremely difficult to develop concentration. Concentration provides support for the development of wisdom. It allows the mind to "see" processes that one cannot see clearly in our everyday state of mind. If one can attain jhana and sit and notice each and every thought as it arises, as it sustains and as it falls then wait for long periods of time between these thoughts and then notice the same process occurring again and again with no seeming connection between thoughts and no "self" behind the generation of these thoughts, surely there the mind is picking apart the veil of delusion. Noticing the mind in that way begins to pull apart the delusion of a self and of permanence - as one sits noticing each and every thought rise and fall. Surely this is what it is all about? Noticing processes in our everyday mind state is far less effective because our mind is too dull to notice enough. Development of concentration helps to support the development of wisdom because finer and finer processes can be noticed. Anyway, I think I have made my point. Let me know what you think. Kind Regards, Evan 44054 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 7:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > This is from Bhikkhu Bodhi's article on "A look at the Kalama Sutta" > "On the basis of a single passage, quoted out of context, the Buddha > has been made out to be a pragmatic empiricist who dismisses all > doctrine and faith, and whose Dhamma is simply a freethinker's kit > to truth which invites each one to accept and reject whatever he > likes. But does the Kalama Sutta really justify such views? Or do we > meet in these claims just another set of variations on that > egregious old tendency to interpret the Dhamma according to whatever > notions are congenial to oneself -- or to those to whom one is > preaching?" Joop: That in fact what I said, of other persons, but also as a description of wishful thinking, in #43874 of the thread "Re: Buddha Nature / Luminous Citta": And about the beautifull sutta: "Luminous, monks, is the mind, and it is defiled by incoming defilements." … If the Buddha did mean Buddha-Nature with "this luminous mind" (citta): I don't know; so I do not believe the (Theravada-) commentatators like Bhikkhu Bodhi: they don't like suttas they don't understand so it's possible that they re-interpretate them because they understand that interpretation… … interpretation of luminous mind as the bhavanga-citta? My answer: I don't know, but I don't think so: saying that it is a bhavanga-citta is making this sutta harmless and less incomprehensible, less 'mystical'. But without more proof for any interpretation a honest answer (with a scientific attitude) should say: we don't know what this sutta means. Metta Joop 44055 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 8:09am Subject: Decisive Support Condition htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 24 conditions that serve as conditional relations between different kinds of dhamma. These 24 conditions are also known as 24 paccayas or 24 causes or 24 supporting dhamma. In the widest sense, among these 24 conditional relationships upanissaya paccaya or decisive-support condition has the widest relations between and among different dhamma. ''Purimaa purimaa kusalaa dhammaa pacchimaanam pacchimaanam akusalaanam dhammaanam kesanci upanissaya paccayena paccayo''. There are instants that kusala dhammas are being developed as a good deed or wholesome deed or meritorious deed. So it can be said that the beginning is started with wholesome actions. This can be seen in case when we do great offering to others. When we are offering we are happy and we are sincere that we do good things to other people. But 'sometimes' during that wholesome actions or around that wholesome actions that arise thinking that are not appropriate for kusala dhamma and this may finally lead to opposite called akusala dhamma. When there is a good start but there is a bad ending. This happen sometimes and the foregoing wholesome actions or kusala dhamma serves as 'decisive support condition' or 'upanissaya paccaya' for later unwholesome actions or akusala dhammas. Purima means 'front' 'before' 'foregoing'. Here kusala dhamma such as offering and kusala cittas that do the offering are foregoing dhamma or purima dhamma. When they go before what follow after them is pacchima dhamma. Pacchima means 'back' 'last' 'following'. Here pacchima dhammas are akusala dhamma. So kusala dhamma may serve as upanissaya paccaya for akusala dhamma in some way (kesanci). Here the condition is not proximity condition or anantara paccaya or it is also not contiguity condition or samanantara paccaya. So it is not necessary that the foregoing kusala dhammas have to be immediately followed by akusala dhamma. This cannot happen. Because kusala dhamma and akusala dhamma cannot be neighbour and they never arise in proximity condition or contiguity condition. But as explained above kusala dhamma may in some way support akusala dhamma and this sometimes happen. As in above example when offerings are being carried out there are kusala dhamma. But the merit doers may have inappropriate thinking on his own deeds. For example they may develop lobha or attachment to their own deeds and this attachment may further leads to other akusala dhamma. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44056 From: Htoo Naing Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 8:32am Subject: Non-Beautiful Consciousness Continue htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 30 asobhana cittas or 30 non-beautiful consciousness. It is no doubt that 12 akusala cittas or 12 unwholesome consciousness are ugly and non-beautiful. But still there are 18 non-beautiful consciousness or 18 asobhana cittas. Some of them are not ugly but they are not beautiful. So it will appropriate if they are called non-beautiful consciousness. 7 ahetuka akusalavipaka cittas or 7 root-less unwholsome-resultant consciousness are 5 vinnana cittas or 5 sense-consciousness of bad results namely cakkhu-vinnana citta or eye-consciousness, sota-vinnana citta or ear-consciousness, ghana-vinnana citta or nose-consciousness, jivha-vinnana citta or tongue-consciousness, and kaya-vinnana citta or body-consciousness. There are 2 more cittas and these 2 extra cittas are sampaticchana citta or receiving consciousness and santirana citta or investigating consciousness. So there are altogether 7 cittas that are resultant consciousness derived from akusala actions in the past lives. There are 8 ahetuka kusalavipaka cittas . These are 8 rootless wholesome resultant consciousness. They are_ 1. upekkha sahagatam kusalavipaka cakkhuvinnana citta 2. upekkha sahagatam kusalavipaka sotavinnana citta 3. upekkha sahagatam kusalavipaka ghanavinnana citta 4. upekkha sahagatam kusalavipaka jivhavinnana citta 5. sukha sahagatam kusalavipaka kayavinnana citta 6. upekkha sahagatam kusalavipaka sampaticchana citta 7. somanassa sahagatam kusalavipaka santirana citta 8. upekkha sahagatam kusalavipaka santirana citta They cittas are the resultant cittas supported by kusala kamma or wholesome deeds. Sukha means 'physical pleasure'. There are 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas or 3 root-less functional or inoperational consciousness. They are_ 1. upekkha sahagatam pancadvaravajjana citta 2. upekkha sahagatam manodvaravajjana citta 3. somanassa sahagatam hasituppada citta Panca means 'five'. Dvara means 'door'. Avajjana is made up of 'aa' and 'vijjana'. Avaijjana means 'contemplating on the object' 'adverting the object' 'turning the attention to the object'. Pancadvaravajjana citta is a consciousness that turns the attention to ruparammana or sight (colour-light) saddarammana or sound, gandharammana or smell, rasarammana or taste, and photthabbarammana or touch-senses (which may be pathavi-hardness, tejo-temperature, or vayo-supportiveness). Ruparammana is the object of colour or sight. Saddarammana is the object of sound. Gandharammana is the object of smell. Rasarammana is the object of taste. And Photthabbarammana is the object of bodily touches like consistency, temperature and movement or pressure or supportiveness. Manodvaravajjana citta is a citta that arise at manodvara or mind door. It turns the attention to mind object or dhammarammana. Dhammarammana includes 89 cittas or 89 consciousness, 52 cetasikas or 52 mental factors, 5 pasada rupa or 5 sense-door bases, 16 sukhuma rupa or 16 subtle materials, nibbana, and pannatta or names. Pasada is the nature that has clearing effect on rupa that are collected together. Sukhuma means 'subtle'. Pannatta means 'concepts' or 'conceptualisation'. Hasituppada comes from ' hasi' and 'uppada'. Hasa or hasi is humour or sense of humour. Uppada means 'arising'. Hasituppada means 'arising of humourous sense'. Hasituppada citta is the citta that arises when arahats smile. This citta is kiriya citta. So it has no kammic force. It is rootless citta. These three consciousness are also rootless consciousness like the first 7 akusala-vipaka cittas and then 8 kusala-vipaka cittas. They all make ( 3 + 7 + 8 = 18 ) 18 root-less consciousness and they are non-beautiful consciousness. Along with 12 akusala cittas, there are a total of 30 asobhana cittas or 30 non-beautiful consciousness. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44057 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 5:06pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H jonoabb Hi Evan (and All in a PS) --- Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: > > Jon, > > Thanks for explaining that. I have come across people who claim to > attain jhana regularly in practice but I remember thinking at the time > that their description of what their jhanic state was did not coincide > with the suttas and other descriptions I had read. > > Thanks, > > Evan Yes, although I was referring mainly to their description of the development of samatha leading to the supposed jhana. Most people equate concentration with samatha. Jon PS Sent from Samui Airport on the way back to Hong Kong, via Bangkok (James, make the most of the last few hours before the moderators return). 44058 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 5:49pm Subject: (No subject) Evan_Stamatopou... To those that believe the brain is everything or the brain is mind, the link below is to a talk by Ajahn Brahmavamso (about 6MB download) in which he describes a meditator who while in Jhana was about to be pronounced dead. My question is: how can one be "dead" but still have a mind if it is the brain that provides the mind? http://www.buddhistfellowship.org/Dhamma%20Talk_Download/AjahnBrahm_Jhan a-June 2003_talk_mp3.mp3 Kind Regards, Evan 44059 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 8:56pm Subject: Aeternum vale Rusty! Farewell forever christine_forsy... Dear Group, The first two diary entries have been seen by some of you before. This is long, but I needed to write it. Twelve years or more ago, I forget exactly when, a stray dog - a Great Dane/Alsatian cross-breed, a gentle giant we called Rusty - came into the lives of myself and my family. He was to stay for only one night 'until we find his owner' ... but we never did, and he never moved on. Nothing very special about him - just a dog. Changes inevitably came, children grew up, finished school, went to University, moved out of home - the dog and I lived companiably together on a small rural property. He was good natured, gentle, obedient mostly - except when hiding at bath-time, and disobeying the rule about not going on carpets by entering the study to listen whenever he heard the Sound Files of the BrahmaViharas being chanted. ================== 2nd week of September, 2004. This morning, just before I left for work, he started fitting. I panicked a little but, looking back over today, what seems strange is that I somehow found the strength alone to lift a 46g kilogram fitting dog into the hatch-back of my small car. It took four of us to lift him out at the Veterinary Hospital. An anxious day, many tests, no definite conclusions - but, what there is doesn't bode well. The Vet says "Chris, it's something we've never seen before in our combined forty years of practice, so I'm taking the CT Scan results to the University tonight, we'll know something definite by mid-morning tomorrow - I want you to be prepared to make some decisions ..." Rusty is on a valium/phenobarb./wide spectrum antibiotic drip, in 'twilight' sleep. There is so much 'important' suffering in the world, brutal, horrific, unfair, and seemingly ever increasing - and I see so much grief and trauma everyday at the hospital. Trying to get things in perspective here. Just a dog. But I keep remembering scenes from the past. Rusty - as a pup whirling round and round on the rotary clothes hoist when his teeth caught in a towel he had been trying to pull off; Rusty - as a young dog bailed up by a scotty bantam hen (one tenth his size) with her a dozen chicks behind her outstretched wings; as an inquisitive black and tan pup making a nuisance of himself when my son was milking our house cow and having his furry face painted white with an accurate squirt from a teat; at Christmas time proud of his red santa hat and cotton wool beard with tinsel round his collar; a hullaballoo in the front paddock, Rusty running fast towards the house, couldn't see what was chasing him, thought it might be a goanna or a red- bellied black snake ... turned out to be a Chihuahua named Dolores who was visiting next door. Just a dog. I don't know what the decisions are that I will need to be "prepared to make" - not exactly. But I can guess ... My daughter, who was eleven years old when we found him under our car after a Debating contest one night at the school, took time off work to sit with us today. My son is wandering in India, somewhere south of Goa, last we heard, and he will be fiercely against what I know the Vet will be asking ... As a follower of the Teachings, I always look to them to see how I am to live. The First Precept is "I undertake the training rule to abstain from killing living beings" In the Dhammapada v.246-7, the Buddha says: "Whoever destroys living beings, ..... whatever man indulges thus extirpates the roots of himself even here in this very world." Somehow - though this is very clear - it is against what every compassionate person I know will be expecting me to do .... ============================ 3rd week of September, 2004 On Wednesday, I explained to a kindly Veterinarian that I wouldn't have Rusty 'put down', but would prefer further investigations. I said that only if he couldn't be kept comfortable while 'allowing nature to take it's course' would we need to discuss 'other options' again. Today, I visited Rusty at the Animal Hospital. He has had most of the back of his neck shaved, has drips connected to each front paw and a catheter connected elsewhere. He is feeling very sorry for himself (and I am too!). But he knew I was there, which is more than he has known for the last couple of days. The CT scan showed no tumours, but, instead, a 1/2 cm space across the back of the top of the cranium filled with air, indicating that he has brain degeneration - he also has inflammatory meningitis. It may be that in a few days time he can come Home, and continue treatment orally instead of by drip. The hospital staff - the receptionists, the cleaners, the veterinary doctors, the university trainees, were all beaming and coming by continually to say how glad they were to have such an 'unexpected win'! So ... brain degeneration ... that's sad, yes, and no one would deny it ... but that's just the way it is ... and, really, how much brain does a furry chap need in order to lie on the grass in the morning sun, and under a shady tree in the afternoon; to chase hares and magpies across the paddocks; to come when called for dinner; and to know who it is that loves him unconditionally? :) :) :) :) :) =========================== Wednesday 6 April, 2005 For a week I had been with spiritual friends in Bangkok and on Sunday 3 April, I flew back into Brisbane after a long night flight via Sydney. I was met by my daughter, and after the usual luggage retrieval, we moved towards the car - "Oh, by the way, Mum - there's is something I have to tell you ..." Rusty had become ill in the kennels and had been taken to the local veterinarian - my son and daughter wouldn't allow the Vet to euthanise him. He was sent to the Animal Hospital. And so began a round of tests (some under general anaesthetic), x-rays, biopsy, ultrasounds, in a fruitless quest to find the cause and the cure. After being in intensive care and 'specialed' for three days and nights, he was not improving and the Veterinarian said there was not a good chance that he ever would. I decided to end his suffering. I thought of him dying there in the sterile atmosphere of the hospital with the moans and cries of sick and fretting animals. I thought of him dying there with no contact with the warm earth, without the scents of his home wafting on an afternoon breeze, without the sounds he was used to, of crows, magpies, and ducks on the dam; of cows lowing, horses whinneying, and the rustle of small animals in the undergrowth. So I gathered some reminders - eucalptus leaves and those of the lemon-scented tea tree - where he always lay in the shade on a hot summer's afternoon as he waited for me to come home from work; some grasses and herbs from the garden where he buried his bones, and branchlets from the sacred bamboo on which he rubbed his back. My son and daughter and I were taken to be in a room with him - he was on the floor on a mattress and covered up to the neck by a blanket. We knelt beside him and kissed his swollen face and held him and told him we loved him. We cried, but not too much ... 'let him only feel love, not our own self-pity' ... I crumpled the leaves and grass near his face so that the scent would be strong for him - we all placed our hands on him and gently stroked him. The vet did what had to be done, and when he died the change was so imperceptible that we had to be told he was gone. Such a mystery is Death - such a mystery is life. Aeternum vale Rusty! Farewell forever .. Just a Dog .. Chris 44060 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 1:14am Subject: Back (Was: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: ... > PS Sent from Samui Airport on the way back to Hong Kong, via Bangkok > (James, make the most of the last few hours before the moderators return). Dear Sarah and Jon I don't understand exactly what you mean with this remark; but I think you want again spend much time on your DSG-moderator activities. Maybe a part of it is to restructure and revitalize DSG, and I hope this will be the case. Some suggestions - More than one field of discussion. For example:  Discussions within the frame of reference of Abhidhamma - Buddhaghosa - Sujin  Technical questions about that frame of reference  Discussions about but not totally wihin that frame of reference  Broader Buddhistic discussions - More thread-discipline (on this moment many participants are too lazy to change the name of the thread if they start another topic) - Less a family-like communication within the DSG-community (no personal information of participants) Metta Joop 44061 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 1:42am Subject: Back (Was: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H christine_forsy... Sorry Joop - perhaps you are referring to my post which came immediately before yours, about the death of my sole companion of many years, and the fact that it was my decision that ensured his death. With no Buddhist friends closer than 200 kms, I found little real understanding of how I was feeling in those colleagues I see each day. An animal's death is difficult - a Christian society's reaction makes it such an unvalidated or 'disenfranchised' grief. And I looked to the internet for understanding and support from those who view life from a Buddhist perspective. I didn't realise it would be viewed as inappropriate content for this list. I had assumed dsg was for those interested in understanding the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka. The Present Moment, to me, most certainly includes what happens in Daily Life, the joys and the heartbreaks of ordinary life. But if as you put it, it should have " - Less a family-like communication within the DSG-community (no personal information of participants" then it is not the place for me. May you always be well and happy Joop, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > ... > > PS Sent from Samui Airport on the way back to Hong Kong, via > Bangkok > > (James, make the most of the last few hours before the moderators > return). > > > Dear Sarah and Jon > > I don't understand exactly what you mean with this remark; but I > think you want again spend much time on your DSG-moderator activities. > Maybe a part of it is to restructure and revitalize DSG, and I hope > this will be the case. > Some suggestions > > - More than one field of discussion. For example: >  Discussions within the frame of reference of Abhidhamma - > Buddhaghosa - Sujin >  Technical questions about that frame of reference >  Discussions about but not totally wihin that frame of reference >  Broader Buddhistic discussions > > - More thread-discipline (on this moment many participants are too > lazy to change the name of the thread if they start another topic) > > - Less a family-like communication within the DSG-community (no > personal information of participants) > > Metta > > Joop 44062 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 2:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aeternum vale Rusty! Farewell forever sarahprocterabb... Hi Chris (SarahF & Luke), --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Aeternum vale Rusty! Farewell forever .. Just a Dog .. > ... Just back to the luxury of a computer -- I didn't have Jon's ingenuity (and patience perhaps:-))to get around the sloooow connections, regular losses of connections and non-working keys in Samui, though I did try a couple of times --- We were very sorry to just read about Rusty and send our condolences and best wishes to you, SarahF and Luke too. We all know how much a part of your family he's been for so long, and like you said to Nina about her father, he's also become part of our extended DSG family too (photo in 'Significant Others' album for newbies to see). You gave him the best life that a dog can have and let's hope that all that listening to brahma vihara recordings, time being surrounded by Dhamma books and all the pleasure he gave you all may just lead to happy results:-). Perhaps he (or that continued stram of cittas) may rejoice in our offerings of dhamma too.... I'm very glad you were back in time to be with him and collect all those favourite, familiar twigs and leaves and so on. It sounds like Sarah and Luke (your children) handled everything beautifully in your absence and so sensitively on your arrival back. Perhaps you or Connie could re-post the link to that great letter she wrote to Rusty too:-) And back we come again to seeing and visible object; just a moment of seeing and then immediately stories about what is seen with usually no awareness. Even now there can be awareness of that seeing or visible object. This is all life consists of from moment to moment - seeing, hearing, likes, dislikes and so on, whether for us or 'just a dog'. Thinking of you all...keep sharing your feelings, reflections and diary musings. We'll be glad to read them. Perhaps SarahF may like to share her reflections and any questions on life/death too. Metta Sarah (& Jon) p.s All, I have lots of musings from our recent trip - perhaps I'll try to write a brief summary of one a day. Any requests for clarifications or comments will be most welcome. =============== 44063 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 2:47am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 158- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (h) sarahprocterabb... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] The Atthasåliní (I, Part IV, Chapter I, 120,121) gives a definition of viriya which is similar to the one given by the Visuddhimagga. Apart from this definition it gives first another one and here it deals with viriya under the aspect of “controlling faculty” or indriya . The Påli term “indriya” means “governing or ruling principle”. When kusala viriya has been developed it becomes a “controlling faculty”. The controlling faculty of viriya “controls” or inhibits laziness, a defilement opposed to energy (1). We read in the Atthasåliní: * "From its overcoming idleness it is a controlling faculty in the sense of predominance …Its characteristic is strengthening, and grasp or support. As an old house stands when strengthened by new pillars, so the aspirant (meditator), when strengthened by energy, does not fall off or deteriorate as to moral states. Thus should the characteristic of strengthening be understood…" * The Atthasåliní then uses a simile of a small army which, if it goes to battle, might be repulsed. However, when they are supported by a strong reinforcement sent by the king, they can defeat the hostile army. We read: * "… thus energy does not allow associated states to recede, to retreat; it uplifts, supports them. Hence it has been said that energy has the characteristic of supporting." * *** 1) See Dhammasangaùi §13, and for its explanation: Atthasåliní I, Part IV, Chapter 2, 146. There are five indriyas which should be developed together. They are the “spiritual faculties” which are the following wholesome qualities: saddhå (confidence), viriya, sati, samådhi (concentration) and paññå. These faculties control or overcome the defilements which are their opposites. When indriyas have been developed to the degree that they are “unshakable”, they are “powers” or “strengths”, balas. Powers cannot be shaken by the defilements which are their opposites. ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44064 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aeternum vale Rusty! Farewell forever christine_forsy... Hello Sarah, and (Connie), Thank you for your comforting letter - you are very kind. I am feeling O.K. at the moment, though I expect there to be ups and downs. I will pass your letter on to SarahF and Luke. The Dhamma is a safety net - and a little understanding is better than a lot of self pity .. but, no control, you know :-). Yes, I have kept Connie's letter, and it still brings a smile. Thank you Connie. :-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/37046 metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Chris (SarahF & Luke), > > --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > > Aeternum vale Rusty! Farewell forever .. Just a Dog .. > > > ... > Just back to the luxury of a computer -- I didn't have Jon's ingenuity > (and patience perhaps:-))to get around the sloooow connections, regular > losses of connections and non-working keys in Samui, though I did try a > couple of times --- > > We were very sorry to just read about Rusty and send our condolences and > best wishes to you, SarahF and Luke too. We all know how much a part of > your family he's been for so long, and like you said to Nina about her > father, he's also become part of our extended DSG family too (photo in > 'Significant Others' album for newbies to see). > > You gave him the best life that a dog can have and let's hope that all > that listening to brahma vihara recordings, time being surrounded by > Dhamma books and all the pleasure he gave you all may just lead to happy > results:-). Perhaps he (or that continued stram of cittas) may rejoice in > our offerings of dhamma too.... > > I'm very glad you were back in time to be with him and collect all those > favourite, familiar twigs and leaves and so on. It sounds like Sarah and > Luke (your children) handled everything beautifully in your absence and so > sensitively on your arrival back. > > Perhaps you or Connie could re-post the link to that great letter she > wrote to Rusty too:-) > > And back we come again to seeing and visible object; just a moment of > seeing and then immediately stories about what is seen with usually no > awareness. Even now there can be awareness of that seeing or visible > object. > > This is all life consists of from moment to moment - seeing, hearing, > likes, dislikes and so on, whether for us or 'just a dog'. > > Thinking of you all...keep sharing your feelings, reflections and diary > musings. We'll be glad to read them. Perhaps SarahF may like to share her > reflections and any questions on life/death too. > > Metta > > Sarah (& Jon) > p.s All, I have lots of musings from our recent trip - perhaps I'll try to > write a brief summary of one a day. Any requests for clarifications or > comments will be most welcome. > =============== 44065 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 3:58am Subject: Dhamma Thread (302) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are cittas that can arise in arupa brahmas and there are other cittas that cannot arise in arupa brahmas. There are 12 akusala cittas. But 2 dosa mula cittas or 2 aversion- rooted consciousness cannot arise in arupa brahma as all brahmas rupa or arupa never have any dosa. Why? This happens because all jhanas rupa or arupa become jhanas only after complete clearing of dosa. So arupa brahmas can have 10 akusala cittas out of 12 akusala cittas. They do not have any rupas and so they do not have eye, ear, nose, tongue, body. So there is no 10 panca-vinnana cittas or 10 or 5 pairs of sense-consciousness. As these is no panca-vinnana cittas, there is no receiving consciousness or 2 sampaticchana cittas and no investigating consciousness or 3 santirana cittas. So arupa brahmas do not have 15 ahetuka vipaka cittas. As they do not have sense organs, they do not have pancadvaravajjana citta. So out of 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas, only 2 ahetuka kiriya cittas can arise in them. Out of 30 asobhana cittas or non-beautiful consciousness, 10 akusala cittas and 2 ahetuka cittas can arise in them. So there are 12 asobhana cittas that can arise in arupa brahmas. There are 24 kama sobhana cittas. But 8 mahavipaka cittas, which serve as patisandhi, bhavanga, and cuti citta of kama sattas cannot arise in arupa brahmas. When they do non-jhana kusala, they have 8 mahakusala cittas or if they are arahatta arupa brahma, then they will have 8 mahakiriya cittas. So there are 16 kama sobhana cittas that can arise in arupa brahmas. Arupa brahmas do not do any rupa jhanas. What they do regarding jhana is their level arupa jhana or higher arupa jhanas. So they do not have any of 15 rupavacara cittas ( 5 rupakusala, 5 rupavipaka, 5 rupakiriya ). They can have 12 arupavacara cittas ( 4 arupakusala, 4 arupavipaka, 4 arupakiriya ). Arupa brahmas can have the following cittas. a) 10 akusala cittas (8 lobha, 2 moha ) b) 2 ahetuka kiriya cittas (1 manodvaravajjana, 1 hasituppada) c) 16 kama sobhana cittas (8 mahakusala cittas, 8 mahakiriya cittas) d) 12 arupavacara cittas (4arupakusala,4 arupavipaka,4 arupakiriya) e) 7 lokuttara cittas (sotapatti magga citta never arises there) ---------------- 47 cittas Again, akasanancayatana brahmas do not have higher arupavipaka cittas and any arupa brahma do not have arupavipaka cittas which is not of their realm. So there will be 44 maximal possible cittas in arupa brahmas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44066 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 4:13am Subject: Dhamma Thread (303) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, In arupa brahmas, possible vithi varas are 1. manodvara-kama-javana vithi vara of lobha 2. manodvara-kama-javana vithi vara of moha 3. manodvara-kama-javana vithi vara of hasa or smile 4. manodvara-kama-javana vithi vara of kama-kusala 5. manodvara-kama-javana vithi vara of kama-kiriya 6. manodvara-appana-javana vithi vara of arupakusala 7. manodvara-appana-javana vithi vara of arupakiriya 8. manodvara-appana-javana vithi vara of lokuttara kusala 9. manodvara-appana-javana vithi vara of lokuttara vipaka (fruition) Mano or mana means 'mind' 'mind-related'. Dvara means 'door'. Manodvara means 'mind-door'. Manodvara is the last bhavanga citta just before the first vithi citta of any vithi vara. Kama means 'sensuous things like sight, sound, smell, taste,touch'. Javana means 'swift'. Here javana means 'javana cittas'. Javana cittas are cittas that arise in 7 successive moments when in kama- javana and infinite moments when in appana-javana in samapatti or attainment. Appana means 'close'. It is so close that it is hard to say whether there is any space between the object and the citta'. Vithi means 'serial'. Vara means 'a turn' or 'the turn'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44068 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 4:37am Subject: Back (Was: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Sorry Joop - perhaps you are referring to my post which came > immediately before yours, about the death of my sole companion of > many years, and the fact that it was my decision that ensured his > death. Dear Christine Sorry for your dog (and your grief) and for my message that was crude to you. My remark about 'personal' things had nothing to do with your message but more with James who had the feeling that otherrs members are the favorites of the 'elders', that's a kinf of family-emotions. Metta Joop 44069 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 4:53am Subject: Back (Was: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H christine_forsy... Dear Joop, Thank you for clarifying and settling any misunderstanding. I am a little more reactive than usual at the moment and appreciate your patience. metta and peace, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > wrote: > > > > Sorry Joop - perhaps you are referring to my post which came > > immediately before yours, about the death of my sole companion of > > many years, and the fact that it was my decision that ensured his > > death. > > > Dear Christine > > Sorry for your dog (and your grief) and for my message that was crude > to you. > My remark about 'personal' things had nothing to do with your message > but more with James who had the feeling that otherrs members are the > favorites of the 'elders', that's a kinf of family-emotions. > > Metta > > Joop 44070 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 4:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau Hi Evan, I wrote: ------------- > > Many people base their Buddhist practices on jhana, but it seems that they do so in spite of ancient Theravada texts rather than because of them. ------------ And you replied: ---------------------------- > So as far as I can see, the Buddha is exhorting us to practice the jhanas. ------------- As you know, there were, in the Buddha's day, many men and women with "little dust in their eyes." Some of them (a small fraction, I think) were living as strict ascetics and practising jhana. They were exhorted to continue with their practice. Others were living as householders, but had the wisdom and ascetic tendencies that made them capable of jhana. Many of those people were exhorted to leave their homes, go to a remote forest, or cemetery (etc.) and develop jhana (and vipassana, of course). But you probably know all this better than I do. When I said people today aspire to jhana "in spite of the ancient Theravada texts rather than because of them." I meant they have not studied the meaning of jhana, and they think it is something ordinary people are capable of. By the way, there was typo in my previous message: I meant to say a dvihetu-patisandhika (person born with only two of the three noble root conditions) was born with alobha and adosa - not amoha and adosa. ---------------------- <. . .> E: > There is no question that for a householder, especially in the western world which is drowning in sense pleasure, this is an exceedingly difficult task. Possibly, however, on a reasonably long retreat with a suitable experienced Buddhist monk as the teacher, one could attain jhana (for what it's "worth"). ----------------- Possibly, yes, but I would think it extremely unlikely. The hard part of jhana development is not so much living in rags at the foot of a tree in the middle of nowhere: the hard part is getting to the stage where taking up that lifestyle would be a beneficial thing to do. For us ordinary people, hunger, cold, biting insects, isolation, etc., etc., would be the last things to bring about tranquillity. This is what Kom was driving at with his examples of how hard it is to become "established in morality" (and to know karuna from attachment, etc.). It takes many lifetimes to accumulate that kind of wisdom. Unlike in the Buddha's day, there aren't many saintly people around, and those that are around would be more interested in developing vipassana than in developing jhana. --------------- <. . .> E: > I think that there are many Theravadin Buddhist monks who can attain jhana without difficulty - up to fourth jhana and beyond. ---------------- People of all persuasions (Buddhist and non-Buddhist) can bring about amazing results from intensive meditation, prayer, sensory deprivation, self-hypnosis, physical endurance, and so on. Who is to say when it is jhana and when it is not? ----------------------- E: > Rather than reproduce the rest of the email response and respond on a line by line basis, I would like to make a general comment that I was under the impression that the 8-fold noble path was divided into 3 broad areas: virtue, concentration and wisdom. Even though each is not independent of the other, they do tend to build on each other. One that has not practiced virtue and therefore has an agitated mind can find it extremely difficult to develop concentration. Concentration provides support for the development of wisdom. It allows the mind to "see" processes that one cannot see clearly in our everyday state of mind. ------------------------------------------ Without disagreeing with what you say, I would like to remind you there are only dhammas: In a moment of vipassana, there are dhammas that represent virtue, concentration and wisdom. For that split second of virtuous kamma, there is right concentration (the dhamma, samma-samadhi) that is providing support for right wisdom (the dhamma, sama-ditthi (panna)). ------------------------------------------------------------ E: > If one can attain jhana and sit and notice each and every thought as it arises, as it sustains and as it falls then wait for long periods of time between these thoughts and then notice the same process occurring again and again with no seeming connection between thoughts and no "self" behind the generation of these thoughts, surely there the mind is picking apart the veil of delusion. Noticing the mind in that way begins to pull apart the delusion of a self and of permanence - as one sits noticing each and every thought rise and fall. ------------------------------------------------------------- That is an excellent description of the kind of formal practice commonly mistaken for jhana. However, the texts describe jhana very differently. Its object is a kasina (or sometimes, the breath), so thoughts are never observed by jhana consciousness. Rise and fall are never observed by jhana consciousness - just the kasina (as I understand it). --------------------------------- E: > Surely this is what it is all about? --------------------------------- Here, I think you are saying, "This is what the Buddha's teaching is all about." If so, I would have to disagree. Satipatthana is all about conditioned dhammas (most notably, samma-ditthi and samma- sati) perceiving another conditioned dhamma (any dhamma that becomes the object of consciousness) as it really is - i.e., as being a conditioned, mental or physical phenomenon with the three characteristics; anicca, dukkha and anatta. Dhammas last less than a billionth of a second, and so there is no conventional technique that could ever perceive one. Therefore, a practice of sitting still and quiet has no more advantages than would a practice of running wildly and shouting. Samma-sati and panna will arise to perform their functions at any moment in daily life when the right conditions are present. The factors that lead to the right conditions' being present are; association with wise friends, hearing the true Dhamma and wise consideration of the true Dhamma. --------------------------------------------------- E: > Noticing processes in our everyday mind state is far less effective because our mind is too dull to notice enough. Development of concentration helps to support the development of wisdom because finer and finer processes can be noticed. --------------------------------------------------- It is important to know that right understanding can arise to know one of the dhammas that are arising *here and now.* Even if there is sloth and torpor, panna can arise to know sloth or torpor or any other, co-arising, dhamma. --------------------------------------------- E: > Anyway, I think I have made my point. Let me know what you think. --------------------------------------------- Thanks for the chance to talk about it. I look forward to your further comments. Ken H 44071 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 5:12am Subject: RE: Back (Was: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... Or they forget to put a subject at all for new threads (like I did). Kind Regards, Evan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: ... > PS Sent from Samui Airport on the way back to Hong Kong, via Bangkok > (James, make the most of the last few hours before the moderators return). Dear Sarah and Jon I don't understand exactly what you mean with this remark; but I think you want again spend much time on your DSG-moderator activities. Maybe a part of it is to restructure and revitalize DSG, and I hope this will be the case. Some suggestions - More than one field of discussion. For example:  Discussions within the frame of reference of Abhidhamma - Buddhaghosa - Sujin  Technical questions about that frame of reference  Discussions about but not totally wihin that frame of reference  Broader Buddhistic discussions - More thread-discipline (on this moment many participants are too lazy to change the name of the thread if they start another topic) - Less a family-like communication within the DSG-community (no personal information of participants) Metta Joop 44073 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 6:39am Subject: Musings1: "It is by discussion ....that his wisdom is to be known...." sarahprocterabb... Hi Chris, Evan, Ken H & All, Chris quoted the following: 'One has to know someone for a very long time to know what their Sila is.' We discussed how little can be known by outer appearances and indeed we’ve discussed SN3:11 Seven Jatilas before on DSG (with James) in which the Buddha is speaking to King Pasenadi which ends with the verses: “A man is not easily known by the outward form Nor should one trust a quick appraisal, For in the guise of the well controlled Uncontrolled men move in this world. “Like a counterfeit earring made of clay, Like a bronze half-pence coated with gold, Some move about in disguise: Inwardly impure, outwardly beautiful.” ***** We may look for teachers or practitioners with apparent calm, concentration, non-reactivity or apparent wisdom or dignity, but would we know? Earlier in the sutta we read the lines which I referred to, (but couldn't find the reference for): “It is by living together with someone, great king, that his virtue is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard. “It is by dealing with someone, great king, that his honesty is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard. “It is in adversities, great king, that a person’s fortitude is to be known, and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard. “It is by discussion with someone, great king, that his wisdom is to be known, , and that after a long time, not after a short time; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; by one who is wise, not by a dullard.” ***** Without discussing, questioning and attending wisely for a long time, there is no way we can have any idea about another wisdom. In another discussion we also considered how we cannot appreciate the virtues we don’t have ourselves and how our respect and appreciation of the Buddha’s virtues can only be according to our very limited wisdom. (to be contd) Metta, Sarah ======= 44074 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 8:37am Subject: Dhamma Thread (304) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Threads talk about 'citta'. Cittas are discussed to some details. Cittas are classified according to their specific components and their borne characters. Cetasikas are also discussed in Dhamma Threads. Cetasika the word has 'ceta' and 'ika'. Ceto or ceta or cittameans 'mind' 'consciousness' or mind-related. Ika is a grammatical suffix and it is related to position. Example; dvara means 'door' and dvarika means 'at door' or 'things at the door'. Cetasikas are 'things at the citta'. So they are called 'mental factors' or 'things in the mind'. Rupa are also discussed to some extent. Nibbana is discussed sensitively. Pannatti or 'names' are also discussed. Still there may be problems related to 'pannatti'. Citta and cetasikas combinations are discussed later on in the earlier posts of Dhamma Thread. Processing of different citta in a series of procession is also discussed as vithi. After that different vithi varas are discussed to some details. When close to number 300, Dhamma Threads are about bhumis or realms and cittas that can arise in these bhumis or realm. So far different bhumis have also been discussed. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44075 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 11:22am Subject: [dsg] Spoke with Bhikkhu Bodhi last night Re: insight knowledges lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Andrew > > You were very fortunate to have the opportunity to listen to Bhikkhu > Bodhi. He has a considerable knowledge of the texts, and a pleasant, > unassuming manner. > > I think it's unfortunate you did not have the chance to put specific > questions to BB, of the kind we discuss here. But I appreciate that the > format of the occasion was fixed; in the circumstances, you made the most > of the opportunities available. Jon, all the stuff on Abhidharma-- I have learned here and from Nina's ADL-- has been plain and simple so far. Mostly the same with what I have been reading from the Bhikshu's CMA. With the exception of what I've been discussing about the nature of mundane right view, and understanding dhammas as they are present to understand kamma and vipaka (if this type of understanding is indeed necessary for right view, which I glean from his talk that I might), there aren't any questions I have pertaining to Abhidhamma that I could ask, nothing I've been trying to figure out or anything, frankly because I think there are things we can do, as practitioners, to cultivate the factors of the path, actively working as a person, be we made up of namas or rupas or not, to attain stages of enlightenment. This is a point you may see in my discussions with Sarah (the thread "new view on satipatthana"). This has been brought up by people here other than myself, including someone raising the point that the Buddha told some of his order "That's how you should train yourselves." For me, this is not a new spec of information that might change the way I look at things, it is something extra that shows what I believe *lots* of scripture references- purposeful action. This includes the gradual training, the sutta on mindfulness of the body, the (Maha-) Satipatthana sutta, the Potthapada sutta, and more I could cite. The Buddha gives instructions to them all on how to practise. It's clear as day. And he declared very many of his order (if not all) and very man of his lay followers to have reached enlightenment during his ministry. That's why I don't see eye to eye with people here, where it seems one is encouraged to practise only a few nama or rupa on occasion, and to acheive enlightenment in scores, hundreds, or eons of lives and years away. With all the enlightened ones in this dispensation, who's to say we don't have the same chance? We may not all have sufficient meritorious deeds in our past to acheive in this lifetime, but we all still have a reasonable chance of acheiving it within this dispensation if we practise well in this and future lifetimes. > While I have a lot of respect for Bhikkhu Bodhi's scholarship, I think > when it comes to 'practice' one needs to consider any advice given very > carefully against the whole of the Tipitaka. In particular, I think that > advice given in the circumstances of your meeting should be taken as > something to reflect on and consider, rather than to 'go out and do', and > I'm sure this would have been how it was intended by BB himself. Well the book gave pretty specific instructions and referred to specific passages in other words about how to practise right mindfulness. I quote from B.B.'s "Noble Eightfold Path": >>>The fourth step, "calming the bodily function," involves a progressive quieting down of the breath and its associated bodily functions until they become extremely fine and subtle. Beyond these four basic steps lie more advanced practices which direct mindfulness of breathing towards deep concentration and insight. <<< This is in accord with my understanding and the content a few other books I have read (and many I have not) where mindfulness of breathing is the chief 'producer' or 'bringer' or insight. He says it right there. > Just a couple of points about mindfulness of breathing. First, this is > not a practice that was recommended by the Buddha for all and sundry. If > you read the sutta references carefully, you'll see it was mentioned in > the context of monks who were leading a certain lifestyle and in whom > mindfulness and concentration were already highly developed. You'll have to show me where this was the case. If you tell me that the sutta on mindfulness of the body (MN 119) was like this because he was giving it to the order of monks, I would not say that that proves that these instructions were only given to monks who were already developed in mindfulness and concentration on other areas. If it were the case, we'd see where they would start somewhere in the texts, but, I do not believe they do, because we can start with mindfulness of breathing, of the body, and of feelings, mental states, and dhammas. Even my personal experience accords with this- I have talked to someone on an online forum on which there is a consensus this person is enlightened - has done it by simple walking and sitting meditation. A good friend established in dharma, practising the noble eightfold path, tells me he has friends who have acheived the third stage of awakening. I realize I am coming on strong here, but everything in my experience, especially the modern books and practise guides on meditation, go on the same basis. > Secondly, > although mindfulness of breathing can be developed in conjunction with > insight, it is not itself the development of insight. I see it as the vehicle for the development of insight, from what I have read. I had been having some difficulties with the practise of it, which is why I brought it up to Bhikkhu Bodhi. He told me to continue practising even though it's difficult, and I understood the rest of his reply to mean that other contemplations can elicit the insight-knowledges as well. This leaves a small area of uncertainty and doubt for me - that is, how essential mindfulness of breathing is, and its place and cultivating insight, especially in relation to the other contemplations which can do the same. Personally I have acheived some virtue and wisdom with mindfulness of breathing for a greater or lesser period of time. Granted, nothing as far as vipassana nanas, enough to convince me that it's a very feasible option for laypeople and monastics alike. > My suggestion would be to focus your effort on your own study of the > texts, rather than placing too much reliance on the writings or opinions > of others. I think you'll find that much of what is contained in > 'practice guides' is the author's own idea and is not directly supported > by the texts. > > Hope you find this helpful. > > Jon Jon, my own study does not go well, as I am not well, but I have had occasion to read the nikayas and develop some preliminary understanding of how things are to be done. Speaking with the high monk at my temple and on occasion seeing the noble one(s), and reading works by those who are said to be accomplished, has been pretty much in line with my understanding of how things are to be done. I do know that Nina has cited some text or another which says mindfulness of breathing is intended for some special order of monks only, and I do not have access to these texts (I only have two of the Nikayas as far as the canon is concerned, then the Vissudhimagga and some other modern and modernish books, no sub-commentaries or anything), but I would still say the preponderance of evidence suggests we practise the noble eightfold path or the four foundations of mindfulness. Abhidhamma to me means knowing the exact realities, at the same level, or an even deeper level, than the contemplations on the elements, contemplation on consciousness, and so on, rather than a method or vehicle of practise on its own. Eg. I think it was Sarah who said she had spent some time in the order and was labeling states of consciousness with words, and we both agreed that a deeper understanding of the exact realities would be more effective than mere labeling. That's my story and I'm stickin to it. peace, alevin 44076 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 0:51pm Subject: Re: Aeternum vale Rusty! Farewell forever christine_forsy... Hello KenH, Thank you for your kind wishes - I do think I did the compassionate thing - he has really been failing since last September and I didn't expect him to live out this coming winter. I'm actually feeling O.K. - though I expect there will be more moments like when I came home, opened the fridge to get the milk .. and found the dog food. The Five Recollections will have an added insight each morning: I am of the nature to grow old, I have not gone beyond old age. I am of the nature to become ill, I have not gone beyond sickness. I am of the nature to die, I have not gone beyond death. All that is dear and delightful to me will change and vanish. I am the owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related to my actions, abide supported by my actions, whatever action I do, whether good or evil, of that I will become heir. An animal's death is difficult, society's reaction and assessment of the value of an animal makes it such an unvalidated or 'disenfranchised' grief - in a similar vein to that of the death of a same-gender partner, or a miscarriage or still-birth. Hard for anyone, not just a buddhist. May he (and each one of us) have a fortunate re-birth. metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > Sorry about dear old Rusty. I liked the idea of having gum leaves and > other familiar things there for him. He would have known you were > trying to help. > > Also; thanks for helping out with the Kalama Sutta - again. > > Ken H 44077 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 3:49pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... ------------------------------------------------------------ E: > If one can attain jhana and sit and notice each and every thought as it arises, as it sustains and as it falls then wait for long periods of time between these thoughts and then notice the same process occurring again and again with no seeming connection between thoughts and no "self" behind the generation of these thoughts, surely there the mind is picking apart the veil of delusion. Noticing the mind in that way begins to pull apart the delusion of a self and of permanence - as one sits noticing each and every thought rise and fall. ------------------------------------------------------------- -- Ken That is an excellent description of the kind of formal practice commonly mistaken for jhana. However, the texts describe jhana very differently. Its object is a kasina (or sometimes, the breath), so thoughts are never observed by jhana consciousness. Rise and fall are never observed by jhana consciousness - just the kasina (as I understand it). -- -- Evan Hi Ken, Entering jhana requires that the mind concentrate on a kasina but once in Jhana, three things happen to the mind. It becomes extremely tranquil, it becomes extremely joyous and it becomes extremely powerful, able to notice phenomena at a much greater depth than ever before. What also happens is that the sensation of a body disappears, the sensation of space and where you are disappears, the mind seems to expand (this is noticed particularly coming out of jhana). So, yes you are right that the kasina is important for entering jhana but once jhana has been entered, the nimita becomes the focus because there is no more breath. I have supplied a url in another post of a talk by Ajahn Brahmavamso on jhana. In it there is an interesting story about a person who entered jhana (about 10-12 minutes in the talk). Download it and listen to the whole talk. I did that yesterday and found it very interesting. http://www.buddhistfellowship.org/Dhamma%20Talk_Download/AjahnBrahm_Jhan a-June 2003_talk_mp3.mp3 Kind Regards, Evan 44078 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 7:17pm Subject: Re:thinking processes. gazita2002 Dear Tep, Ooooh, not agreeing with you on this one, Tep. Sounds to me like a whole lot of thinking going on. "they counterbalance the effect of alcohol by sati". I, of course, can't know what others can do, but this doesn't sound like true Sati to me. Sounds like the bravery that comes along with being intoxicated. Sure, we say Sati can arise anytime, anywhere, however I doubt very much that Sati would arise when one is intoxicated. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Azita - > > Thank you for initiating the discussion. > > It is true that firm rememberance - an aspect of sanna - is weakened > by intoxicants like alcoholic drinks. Some friends of mine can drink > several glasses (even mixing drinks of different kinds) and still can > drive back home safely. I think they might counterbalance the alcohol > effect by sati on the danger of drunk driving. So, in them the sanna > of danger arose and the alcoholic effect was lessened. > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > > ========= > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" > wrote: > > > > dear Nina and Tep, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > > wrote: > > > op 01-04-2005 02:39 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > > > > > > N: Firm sanna is the proximate cause of sati of satipatthana. We > > learn > > > > again and again about nama and rupa, about their different > > > > characteristics. And when we listened and considered a great > > deal, and > > > > intellecual understanding has been accumulated sufficiently, it > > can be > > > > immediately known when nama appears to the sati and when rupa. No > > need > > > > to say it or define it. > > > > > > > > Azita: On reading this again, another aspect of Sanna occurred to > > me, in relation to the 5th precept - refrain from intoxicants. If it > > takes firm rememberance of intellectual understanding, to be a > > conditon for sati to arise in some future time, then the taking of > > intoxicants hinders that remembrance, to a greater or lesser degree > > depending on the being, I suppose. What do you think? > > > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > > Azita. 44079 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 8:36pm Subject: Re:thinking processes. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > Ooooh, not agreeing with you on this one, Tep. Sounds to me like > a whole lot of thinking going on. > "they counterbalance the effect of alcohol by sati". I, of > course, can't know what others can do, but this doesn't sound like > true Sati to me. Sounds like the bravery that comes along with being > intoxicated. > Sure, we say Sati can arise anytime, anywhere, however I doubt > very much that Sati would arise when one is intoxicated. > > ======= Dear Azita, There is the Dhammapada 142 commentary Santati the minister: For seven days, the king's minister enjoyed himself to his heart's content, getting intoxicated with drink and infatuated with the young dancer. On the seventh day, riding the ornamented royal elephant, he went down to the riverside for a bath. On the way, he met the Buddha going on an alms-round, and being drunk, he just bowed casually, as a sign of respect to the Buddha. Santati and his party spent the whole day at the riverside, bathing, eating, drinking and thus thoroughly enjoying themselves. In the evening the minister and his party went to the garden to have more drinks and to be entertained by the dancer. The dancer, on her part, tried her best to entertain the minister. For the whole week she was living on reduced diet to keep herself trim. While dancing, she suffered a severe stroke and collapsed, and at that instant she died with her eyes and mouth wide open. The minister was shocked and deeply distressed. He went to the Buddha, accompanied by his followers, and related to him about the grief and anguish he suffered on account of the sudden death of the dancer. He then said to the Buddha, "Venerable Sir! Please help me get over my sorrow; be my refuge, and let me have the peace of mind." To him the Buddha replied, "Rest assured my son, you have come to one, who could help you, One who could be a constant solace to you and who will be your refuge. The tears you have shed due to the death of this dancer throughout the round of rebirths is more than the waters of all the oceans."The Buddha then instructed the minister in verse. The meaning of the verse is as follows. "In the past there has been in you clinging (upadana) due to craving; get rid of it. In future, do not let such clinging occur in you. Do not also harbour any clinging in the present; by not having any clinging, craving and passion will be calmed in you and you will realize Nibbana." After hearing the verse, the minister attained arahatship" RobertK 44080 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Wed Apr 6, 2005 9:13pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... Ken, I have just found another description of the jhanas and this is also by Ajahn Brahmavamso. It makes for VERY interesting reading. Hope you like it too. http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/thejhanas.pdf Kind Regards, Evan 44081 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 0:10am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 159- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (i) sarahprocterabb... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] The word “energy” as it is used in conventional language does not render the precise meaning of viriya. When we for example say that we are full of energy, what do we mean? Energy for what? Is it energy accompanying akusala citta or energy accompanying kusala citta? Besides, there are also vipåkacittas and kiriyacittas which are accompanied by viriya. We are inclined to take energy for self, but energy is saòkhåra dhamma, a conditioned dhamma. Energy is conditioned by the citta and the other cetasikas it accompanies and thus there is a different kind of energy with different cittas. In order to have more understanding about viriya we should study which types of cittas it accompanies. ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44082 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 0:50am Subject: Musings2 - Recollection of the Buddha's virtues sarahprocterabb... Dear All, I wrote that ‘in another discussion we also considered how we cannot appreciate the virtues we don’t have ourselves and how our respect and appreciation of the Buddha’s virtues can only be according to our very limited wisdom’ We discussed how when the recollection of the Buddha is an object of samatha(calm)development, only access concentration can be attained and this degree of concentration only by an ariyan. Simply put, any development of samatha has to be accompanied by the wisdom which understands how the object (in this case the Budha’s virtues) can condition calm. A non-ariyan cannot sufficiently appreciate or respect these virtues. With more understanding of the Path, there will be more and more reflection and this will be deeper and deeper. The same applies to all the six recollections (anussati)as objects of samatha, i.e 1)recollection of the Buddha (buddhaanussati), 2) the Dhamma (dhammaanussati), 3) the Sangha (sanghaanussati), 4) sila (siilaanussati), 5) dana (caagaanussati), 6) heavenly beings (devataanussati). As quoted in Nyantiloka’s dictionary, we read that ‘the noble disciple’ recollects: *** >(1) "The noble disciple, Mahánáma, recollects thus: 'This Blessed One is holy, a fully Enlightened One, perfected in wisdom and conduct, faring happily, knower of the worlds, unsurpassed leader of men to be trained, teacher of heavenly beings and men, a Buddha, a Blessed One.' (2) 'Well proclaimed by the Blessed One is the Doctrine (dhamma), directly visible, with immediate fruit, inviting investigation, leading on to Nibbána, to be comprehended by the wise, each by himself.' (3) 'Of good conduct is the Community (Sangha) of the Blessed One's disciples, of upright conduct, living on the right path, performing their duties, to wit: the 4 pairs of men or 8 individuals (s. ariya puggala). This Community of the Blessed One's disciples is worthy of offerings, worthy of hospitality, worthy of gifts, worthy of reverence with raised hands, the unsurpassed field for doing meritorious deeds.' (4) "The noble disciple further recollects his own morality (síla) which is unbroken, without any breach, undefiled, untarnished, conducive to liberation, praised by the wise, not dependent (on craving or opinions), leading to concentration. (5) "The noble disciple further recollects his own liberality (cága) thus: 'Blessed truly am I, highly blessed am I who, amongst beings defiled with the filth of stinginess, live with heart free from stinginess, liberal, open-handed, rejoicing in giving, ready to give anything asked for, glad to give and share with others.' (6) "The noble disciple further recollects the heavenly beings (devatá): 'There are the heavenly beings of the retinue of the Four Great Kings, the heavenly beings of the World of the Thirty-Three, the Yámadevas ... and there are heavenly beings besides (s. deva). Such faith, such morality, such knowledge, such liberality, such insight, possessed of which those heavenly beings, after vanishing from here, are reborn in those worlds, such things are also found in me.' " (A. III,70; VI,10; XI,12). "At the time when the noble disciple recollects the Perfect One ... at such a time his mind is neither possessed of greed, nor of hate, nor of delusion. Quite upright at such a time is his mind owing to the Perfect One ... With upright mind the noble disciple attains understanding of the sense, understanding of the law, attains joy through the law. In the joyous one rapture arises. With heart enraptured, his whole being becomes stilled. Stilled within his being, he feels happiness; and the mind of the happy one becomes firm. Of this noble disciple it is said that amongst those gone astray, he walks on the right path, among those suffering he abides free from suffering. Thus having reached the stream of the law, he develops the recollection of the Enlightened One...." (A.VI.10).< ***** S: We’re bound to contemplate or meditate on some of these recollections from time to time and there is samatha (calm) with any wholesome moments, but any such reflections or samatha development can only be according to our limited understanding of the Buddha’s qualities and the other objects at this time. Not even an arahant can fully fathom the Buddha’s knowledge and attain jhana with these objects of samatha. Several times it was discussed how our comments about the difficulty of comprehending the Four Noble Truths can be in fact a kind of praise and appreciation of the Buddha’s virtues at such a time. We also discussed how samatha (calm) cannot be developed by paying special attention to particular objects. (to be contd). Metta, Sarah ==== 44083 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 2:00am Subject: Dhamma Thread (305) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When Dhamma in its essence is seen, there will not be much attachment to those illusionary things of today's worldly things. This is even true for intellectual contemplation let alone direct knowledge and realization. 'Seen' here speaks loud and bears many meanings. If it is at pativedha level or realization level, there is no need to say anyhting regarding Dhamma as realizers already seen everything related to Dhamma in its essence. 'Seen' here also means 'simple understanding on the matter'. This understanding will at least help 'not doing unwholesome things'. And this kind of understanding lessen 'madness at worldly things'. 'Puthujanno ummattakko'. All worldly beings are not free of illusionary concepts. They will have some forms of madness more or less however they are intelligent. Citta and cetasikas always co-arise and pass away at the same time in every single moment. Is it difficult to see these citta and cetasikas? This will depend on how much have we perfected in many of past lives including this current life learning in real Dhamma. Citta and cetasikas, which co-arise is collectively known as 'nama dhamma'. There are also rupa dhamma. These rupa do not have to be confused with our concepts in physical matters. As concepts are concepts and they are not real matter. Early in Dhamma Thread, citta has been discussed in some details. Cetasikas in their each entity have been discussed to some extent. Cittas have their name because of co-arising cetasikas and these different combinations are named as 89 cittas or 121 cittas. This citta has these cetasikas and that citta has those cetasikas and these matters have also been discussed in the earlier posts of Dhamma Thread. When cetasikas are centred, different calculation of cittas in comparison with each cetasika has been discussed in the earlier posts. Examples are 'vitakka' can arise in 55 cittas or 121 cittas and it cannot arise in other 66 cittas. These combinations or nama dhamma, which comprises 'pure citta' and 'different combinations of cetasikas' are also discussed as they are functioning to work their different jobs. While each citta is performing its specific job, their approximation and their occurence in a serial manner constitutes a series called 'vithi vara'. Different vithi varas are also explained in the earlier posts. After these different vithi varas or 'processions of consciousness', different beings of different realms and their consciousness are discussed to some extent. Rupa are enumerated and each has been explained. Their arising, their lifespan, their aggregates and their passing away in beings are all discussed in the previous posts. Nibbana and pannatti are also discussed frequently. Current Dhamma Thread just finishes at bhumis or realms and the cittas in those 31 bhumis or realms have been discussed in last few posts. To summerise, there are 4 sets of 4 or 'catu-catukka dhamma'. 1. 4 bhumis or 4 realms or catu-bhumi 2. 4 rebirth or 4 patisandhi 3. 4 kinds of 4 kamma 4. 4 kinds of death or 4 maranuppatti May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44084 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Having no opinions sarahprocterabb... Hi Joop, I have some posts which I had planeed to reply to before going away, but ran out of time. So back to this old thread of ours:-). --- Joop wrote: >S: Of course this refers to wrong views....As it says in the >dictionary "The rejection > of speculative views and theories is a prominent feature in A chapter > of the Sutta-Nipáta, the Atthaka-Vagga." This is the chapter of > Eights which the Paramatthaka Sutta is from." > > Joop: Nothing of course; 'of course' does not exist. Yes, the sutta > is about rekecting speculative views and theories, but the text of it > states more than that. More than is stated in some other Teachings of > the Buddha. I accept the tension that exists between suttas and I > know many people cannot handle this kind of inconstistencies. ... S: I accept we may interpret suttas a little (or a lot at times perhaps) differently and I know my own understanding of many suttas changes with more input from the commentaries and explanations from friends like yourself. Personally,I don't mind any apparent inconsistencies or difficulites, but have confidence that these are due to either a) my own lack of understanding or b)limited Pali,translation and commentary resources. In this case, I don't see any inconsistency, but may well be missing something. ... > Sarah: "2. When there is samma ditthi (right view), there is of > course no speculation, conceit or greed involved, but instead the > direct knowledge (or panna, understanding) of paramatha dhammas > (highest truths)." > > Joop: I agree, but I should stop this statement > with "understanding)"; because one can think to easy about the lists > of 89 cittas, 28 (or another number) rupas etc when you talk > about 'paramatha dhammas'. .... S: Fair enough. Actually, when there is any kind of right view or any kind of kusala (wholesome consciousness) at all, there is no speculation, conceit or greed. I expect I made my comment because we were discussing 'ditthi', but samma ditthi doesn't have to be satipatthana. When we discuss namas and rupas or paramattha dhammas, no need to count or list these. It's just a matter of what can be directly known as reality or truth. ... > Sarah: "4. I'd like to stress that samma ditthi (right view) is a > synonym for panna (right understanding). In other words, right view > is not a speculative opinion of any kind, but direct knowledge of > dhammas." > > Joop: Yes, that's very important. But that's only true from the > moment I experience any 'right view' from within. Till that moment > they are, when I read about them in dsg or other texts, theories that > may be correct. And I take this vague notion that thy are correct, > with me in my meditation/comtemplations, with the open mind and the > attitude that these - in essence still conventional theories - got > right views in the highest sense TO ME. > (I add that 'TO ME' to it because 'right views' don't exist as such - > that essentialism - they can only exist in individuals) ... S: Yes, theories may be correct and if reflections are right, at moments of wise reflection, there is a level of right view and this is not what is being referred to as speculations or views in the sutta as I read it. At the moment any kind of right view arises, it exists. (The same for wrong views or any other dhammas for that matter). As soon as these states fall away, they no longer exist. What we refer to conventionally as speculations or views are actually the non-existent concepts or ideas that are conceived by various cittas and cetasikas. I'm still a bit 'fuzzy-headed', so I'm probably not making much sense. ... > > In fact that more or less the same as what you say: > "Of course there are many degrees and kinds of panna or right view, > not just direct insight. Reflecting wisely on kamma or on the Truths, > even at a theoretical level can be with right view or panna. This is > pariyatti (wise reflecting and consideration) which has to develop in > order for patipatti(direct knowledge or understanding) to arise and > develop." .. S: Oh, good, I said it better before. ... <...> > Joop: You talk about wrong views and right views. That one dichotomy. > But when I use in my brains the (dutch word for) view, I think many > time more 'opinion' or 'theory' and than the dichotomy is: correct > view versus incorrect view. And 'incorrect' is a theory when it's > falsified (Popper). > When I say that as an effect of my meditation I less and less have > opinions, then a third dichotomy is playing a role: useful opinions > and useless opinions. .... S: Let's be clear that samma and micha ditthi (right and wrong view) refer to 'real' cetasikas (mental factors) which arise momentarily, accompanying a citta and then fall away. What you are referring to are concepts (pannati) which are 'thought' about either wisely or unwisely. (See 'thinking' in U.P.) ... > > Let's for example take the opinion I had for years and still have not > left behind me totally: 'George W. Bush is an dangerous idiot" > I have arguments that this is a correct theory (his refusal to > participate in the Kyoto-protocol for example; Irak) > It was a useful opinion two years ago when I with others tried to > prevent that the Netherlands participated in the Irak-war. But now I > feel it's useless, because it's futile. > That why it's a wrong view, because there is hate in me when I state > this opinion. .... S: Right. This is just thinking and opinions like this are quite useless, especially when conceived or proliferated with ignorance, attachment or aversion. It always comes back to the present state of mind and as you say, hate is always 'wrong', even if the idea itself can scientifically or in other terms can be proved to be correct. Wrong view (micha ditthi)does not necessarily enter the picture while you have these ideas however. It depends if there is any view about truths and realities. Probably it's there, because there's an idea of the people existing and being responsible for others' kamma. Only wisdom can know at such times. .... > > Another example, from Joseph Goldsteins book 'One Dhamma: the > emerging Western Buddhism' (I only have a dutch translation so I had > to translate it back to english) about attachment to opinions. It's > about a Tibetan Rinpoche of whom was stated that he was an > incarnation of Sariputta. He thought: that is not possible because > Sariputta was (according the Pali Canon) an arahat so he is not > reborn so nobody in this century can be an incarnation of him. So > after some time thinking about that he concluded to have no opinion > about this topic anymore. ... S: this is an example of what I just wrote about in Musings2 - how we can only appreciate the Buddha's and arahants' qualities and the Truths according to our limited wisdom at the time. Yes, there can be no reincarnations of arahants. ... > I still have problems with that, I think Goldstein is - partly > without realizing that - converted from a Theravada to a Tibetan > Buddhist. But maybe he is firther on his path than I am. .... I always have some interest in his writings/teachings because we both studied with the same teacher in India initially (Munindra), but we all read, reflect and practise according to where our right and wrong understandings take us. Metta, Sarah p.s Thank you for your suggestions of areas of discussion.I think everyone raises and 'buys into' areas of interest. I appreciate your broader topics and deep reflections a lot, Joop. I don't see the keeping of a thread name as indicating any laziness. Some people prefer to keep the same subject heading so it's easy to search back threads, others like to change them and make them relevant. So we leave this to everyone's discretion and just insist there is a subject heading. As for the family-like communication - well, it's always been like this and as Chris indicated, there is some support for it, but we all just post in our own styles. Mine is very different from Jon's, for example. You have your own friendly and kind style and I was glad you shared some personal details initially and told us you were going into hospital and wouldn't be around. More on 'luminous' later. 44085 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 2:11am Subject: Dhamma Thread (306) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 sets of 4 or 'catu-catukka dhamma'. 1. 4 bhumis or 4 realms or catu-bhumi 2. 4 rebirth or 4 patisandhi 3. 4 kinds of 4 kamma 4. 4 kinds of death or 4 maranuppatti 4 bhumis or 4 sphere of dwellers are 1. apaaya bhumis or woeful planes of existence (4 realms) 2. kaama sugati bhumis ( 1 manussa, 6 deva bhumis_ 7 realms) 3. rupa bhumis ( 16 rupa brahma bhumis_16 realms) 4. arupa bhumis ( 4 arupa brahma bhumis-4 realms) and altogether there are 31 bhumis or 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 4 rebirths or 4 patisandhis are almost the same with these 4 bhumis. They are 1. apaaya patisandhi or woeful rebirth 2. kaama sugati patisandhi or happy sensuous rebirth 3. rupa patisandhi or fine material rebirth 4. arupa patisandhi or non-material rebirth If different cittas are understood, there is no way that one cannot understand these 4 bhumis, 4 patisandhis and 31 bhumis or 31 realms and 31 representative beings of each realm. This representative beings are just an illusionary concept. Kamma is a wide subject and it will be discussed at some time. In the coming posts 4 kinds of death or 4 maranauppatti will be discussed. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44086 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 2:52am Subject: Vipassana & Mahasatipatthana Sutta htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Mahasatipatthana sutta, which is preached in Kuruu is described in 'Digha Nikaaya- Mahavagga' DN-22. With the exception of introductory passage, all other words are The Buddha's vacana or The Buddha's words. Here are The Buddha's words in original forms. Venerable Ananda's words in introductor passage are _ 'Evam me sutam _ Ekam samayam bhagavaa kuruusu viharati kammaasadhammam naama kuruunam nigamo. Tatra kho bhagava bhikkhu aamanesi 'Bhikkhavo'ti. 'Bhaddante'ti te bhikkhuu bhagavato paccassosum. Bhagavaa etadavo ca_' This introductory passage is followed by The Buddha's vacana or The Buddha's words. They are _ 'Ekaayano ayam bhikkhave maggo sattaanam visuddhiyaa soka paridevaanam samatikkamaaya dukkha domanassaanam atthangamaaya ~naayassa adhigamaaya nibbaanassa sacchikiriyaaya, yadidam cattaaro satipatthaanaa.' This is followed by 'uddeso' and then followed by 'kaayaanupassanaa aanaapaana pabba'. In aanaapaana pabba, The Buddha described like this. 'Kathanca pana bhikkhave bhikkhu kaaye kaayaanupassi viharati. idha bhikkhave bhikkhu arannagato vaa rukkhamuulagato vaa sunnaagaaragato vaa nisiidati pallinkam aabhujitva ujum kaayam panidhaaya parimukham satim upatthapetva. So satova assasati, satova passasati.' 1.'Diiham vaa assasanto 'diigham assasaamii' ti pajaanaati, diigham vaa passasanto 'diigham passasaamii' ti pajaanaati. 2.'Rassam vaa assasanto 'rassam assasaamii' ti pajaanaati, rassam vaa passasanto 'rassam passasaamii' ti pajaanaati.' 3.'Sabba kaayapatisamvedii assasissaamii' ti sikkhati, 'sabba kaayapatisamvedii passasissaamii' ti sikkhati.' 4.'Passambhayam kaaya sankhaaram assasissaamii' to sikkhati, 'passambhayam kaaya sankhaaram passasissaamii' ti sikkhati.' These are so subtle that ordinary scholars do not fully understand this part of sutta. Among above numbered 'passages', there is no mention of 'tension' by The Buddha. There is no mention of 'release' by The Buddha. There is no word that mentions as 'let it go' by The Buddha. Mahasatipatthana comprises 4 anupassana. Kaayanupassana is just a part of mahasatipatthana. Among kaayanupassana, aanaapaana pabba is just a part of kaayaanupassana only. May you all benefit from The Buddha's genuine words. With unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44087 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Having no opinions jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Joop, > .... Dear Sarah Thanks, no problem that it took more time than usual >S: Of course this refers to wrong views.... > Joop: Nothing of course; 'of course' does not exist. … .. S: I accept we may interpret suttas a little (or a lot at times perhaps) differently and I know my own understanding of many suttas changes with more input from the commentaries and explanations from friends like yourself. Personally, I don't mind any apparent inconsistencies or difficulites, but have confidence that these are due to either a) my own lack of understanding or b)limited Pali translation and commentary resources. In this case, I don't see any inconsistency, but may well be missing something. Joop: Yes, you did miss something - the most important - of my point: WE EVEN SHOULD NOT HAVE RIGHT VIEWS. Or said in another rather buddhistic (but perhaps more Nagarjuna than Theravada) way: even right views are a raft we should leave behind us ! Or to say in the best way, to avoid that this opinion refers to itself: An effect of my insight-meditation is that I less and less need any view, right or wrong. With the rest of what you wrote on the topic 'Having no opinions' I have no problems. But your "ps" that's about my message 'Back': I do not hope that's the only thing Jon and you as dsg-moderators have to say about it and James' leaving. I really hope the structure and part of the culture of dsg changes because - as ever - the root of my annoyance is within me but I still try to avoid external things that annoy me. Saying something about oneself can give information so somebody else can understand messages of that person better, OK. But in an Forum in which not-atta and not-attach are so central, the need to do so is doubtful. Family-communication: when you praise somebody that his or her message is very good, somebody else (for example James) can think: why does she never praise me? That's the danger of this mechanism. Metta Joop 44088 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 3:49am Subject: [dsg] Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Ken, > > I have just found another description of the jhanas and this is also by > Ajahn Brahmavamso. It makes for VERY interesting reading. Hope you like > it too. > > http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/thejhanas.pdf > > Hi Evan, Judging from the little I have read so far, I can't say I like it. It contradicts my understanding that; (1) jhana is not unique to the teaching of a Buddha; (2) jhana is not necessary for the attainment of enlightenment;(3) the Bodhisatta was taught jhana by his two teachers, and (4) he proved that it did not lead to final release from dukkha. If you are not clear on any of those points, I think it would be well worth your while to raise them on DSG. I might briefly make one other criticism: In arguing that jhana cannot be the object of clinging the author says: "It should be pointed out that the Buddha's word for attachment, upadana, only refers to attachment to the comfort and pleasure of the five-senses or world or to attachment to various forms of wrong view (such as a view of self). It never means attachment to wholesome things, like Jhana." I am sure that is wrong. Any wholesome conditioned dhamma (with the exception of Path-consciousness) can become the object of [unwholesome] clinging consciousness. Ken H 44089 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: --- snip --- I am sure that is wrong. Any wholesome conditioned dhamma (with the exception of Path-consciousness) can become the object of [unwholesome] clinging consciousness. Ken H -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Ken H, Evan and All, That is upanissaya paccayo. Please visit www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana78.html. Wholesome conditioned dhamma may be a supporting dhamma (paccaya dhamma) for clinging consciousness. But this paccaya is not like anantara paccaya. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44090 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 4:24am Subject: RE: [dsg] Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... Ken, Great isn't it? It challenged a lot of my preconceptions too (the first 3 you mention I also understood about jhana). I am re-evaluating what I understand about jhana and its "position" in Buddhism. As I see it though, it's ok for us to theorise and draw conclusions from suttas, abbhidamma and commentaries but when a bikkhu speaks from experience, one has to listen and re-evaluate ones position. Kind Regards, Evan -- Ken wrote Hi Evan, Judging from the little I have read so far, I can't say I like it. It contradicts my understanding that; (1) jhana is not unique to the teaching of a Buddha; (2) jhana is not necessary for the attainment of enlightenment;(3) the Bodhisatta was taught jhana by his two teachers, and (4) he proved that it did not lead to final release from dukkha. If you are not clear on any of those points, I think it would be well worth your while to raise them on DSG. I might briefly make one other criticism: In arguing that jhana cannot be the object of clinging the author says: "It should be pointed out that the Buddha's word for attachment, upadana, only refers to attachment to the comfort and pleasure of the five-senses or world or to attachment to various forms of wrong view (such as a view of self). It never means attachment to wholesome things, like Jhana." I am sure that is wrong. Any wholesome conditioned dhamma (with the exception of Path-consciousness) can become the object of [unwholesome] clinging consciousness. Ken H 44091 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 4:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau Dear Htoo, Thanks for helping out. I was thinking a wholesome nama (jhanna- citta, for example) might condition clinging mind-door consciousness by way of arammana-paccaya. Ken H > > > --- snip --- > > Dear Ken H, Evan and All, > > That is upanissaya paccayo. Please visit > www.geocities.com/htootintnaing/patthana78.html. > > Wholesome conditioned dhamma may be a supporting dhamma (paccaya > dhamma) for clinging consciousness. But this paccaya is not like > anantara paccaya. > 44092 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Having no opinions sarahprocterabb... Hi Joop (& James), --- Joop wrote: > > Joop: Yes, you did miss something - the most important - of my point: > WE EVEN SHOULD NOT HAVE RIGHT VIEWS. > Or said in another rather buddhistic (but perhaps more Nagarjuna than > Theravada) way: even right views are a raft we should leave behind > us ! .... S: If by 'RIGHT VIEWS' you are referring to samma ditthi or panna, then the Buddha had right views most the time and it is this same samma ditthi or panna that needs to be cultivated as I read the texts. When we read about the raft simile, it is the attachment to such views that needs to be discarded. Attachment is the 2nd Noble Truth - the cause of Suffering. (see 'Raft' in U.P. if you have time). ... > Or to say in the best way, to avoid that this opinion refers to > itself: > An effect of my insight-meditation is that I less and less need any > view, right or wrong. ... S: This is not how I understand the teachings or the effect of insight-meditation (vipassana bhavana). By clearly understanding dhammas, the objects of satipatthana, then samma ditthi or sampajanna (clear comprehension) grows and becomes firmer and firmer so that stages of insight and eventually stages of enlightenment can be attained with samma ditthi. ... > With the rest of what you wrote on the topic 'Having no opinions' I > have no problems. ... S: I'll be glad to look at and discuss any references, such as the raft simile later. ... > But your "ps" that's about my message 'Back': I do not hope that's > the only thing Jon and you as dsg-moderators have to say about it and > James' leaving. ... S: Anything I write here under my own name is as a member, just like you, not as a moderator. For mod issues/comments, pls write to us off-list if you have any Qs or comments. In any case I thought James told Nina he was just going quiet and reading posts. That's all I've heard, but I'm glad to read about your concern for him. On a personal level, we've always felt very friendly to James and always had his best interests at heart, to the extent that we've been accused of showing favourtism to him:-). I've also often praised posts he's written such as his kind one to Azita just before we went away, though as KenH would say, I can't think anyone would be fussed either way by any comments or praise I might give. From my perspective, we've had many excellent discussions too. As Nina pointed out, we're all subject to the 8 worldly conditions and yes, the cause of our problems is within us. I liked some comments Kel made when he suggested our practice can be tested as we read and respond to messages too (or something to that effect. Indeed mudita (sympathetic joy) is one of the brahma viharas that we have many opportunities to develop at these times. Can we be glad when others receive gains, praise or good fortune? With an appreciation of the way that kamma and accumulations work, I think it's easier. While we read through the messages in our absence, we thought they were really great quality and very 'dynamic', so I can only thank everyone for the contributions. I appreciate that you may have different opinions on this too, so we can just agree to differ:-). James mentioned that the list is often better when we're away and I'm very happy to hear this.....just as I was happy to hear Htoo praising some comments Ken H had made which were more helpful than some of mine:-). (Look f/w to your continued discussions, Htoo and Ken H, like others have mentioned while I consider my next trip to the waves:-). Joop & James, seriously, I have no interest in being a leader and as I told someone recently, see myself more as a coordinator or sign-post (who makes lots of mistakes and often gets it wrong for the record:-)) I can also see that you or others might not like my style, but I just do my best. As you rightly say, there is no Joop, James or Sarah - just a combination of ever changing cittas, cetasikas and rupas. Developing more understanding of these dhammas is what we're here for as far as I'm concerned too. Metta, Sarah ======= 44093 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: Having no opinions buddhatrue Hi Sarah and Joop, Sarah: In any case I thought James told Nina he was just going quiet and reading posts. James: Yes, that is right, I haven't left the group. I am just reading posts and seeing how things develop. Sarah: On a personal level, we've always felt very friendly to James and always had his best interests at heart, to the extent that we've been accused of showing favourtism to him:-). James: Now, some may think that this contradicts my assertions about the dynamics of this group, but it actually supports them. Think about it: Why would certain members accuse you of showing favoritism to me? After all, this is a discussion group; I don't get treats or money from you. Here is how I see it: it is because in the past you, as recognized leader, communicated with me in a friendly style (even when disagreeing) while those other members saw me as the `enemy'. Now, because of that criticism, you communicate with me in a cool and distant style. If you really had my best interests at heart, you wouldn't be so strongly influenced by what other people demand of you. Like it or not, you are being forced into being the leadership of a closed faction in this group. While this exists, there will never be open communication and I will feel uncomfortable to participate. Sarah: I can't think anyone would be fussed either way by any comments or praise I might give. James: Don't be so sure. Why do you think you were criticized for showing me favoritism? Is it because of those cuddle sessions we have once a month in Bali? ;-)) (Just kidding, Jon) Sarah: I liked some comments Kel made when he suggested our practice can be tested as we read and respond to messages too (or something to that effect. Indeed mudita (sympathetic joy) is one of the brahma viharas that we have many opportunities to develop at these times. James: I liked what Kel had to say about that also. He had his head on straight. Unfortunately, I am not so magnanimous. Metta, James 44094 From: Htoo Naing Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 10:24am Subject: Kusala cittas htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 54 kamavacara cittas or 54 sensuous consciousness, 12 akusala cittas or 12 unwholesome consciousness and 18 ahetuka cittas or 18 rootless consciousness are collectively called asobhana cittas or non-beautiful consciousness. 12 akusala cittas are ugly dead sure no doubt. But 18 ahetuka cittas are also called asobhana cittas because they lack beautiful cetasikas such as alobha, adosa, and amoha. After 30 asobhana cittas, there left 24 kamavacara cittas. They are called 24 kama sobhana cittas. Alobha is non-attachment or source of offering or dana. Adosa is non-hurting nature and it can be called metta or loving kindness. Amoha is non-delusion or non-ignorance or panna or wisdom. These 24 kamasobhana cittas can be divided into three groups according to their origin or jati. They are 8 mahakusala cittas, 8 mahavipaka cittas, and 8 mahakiriya cittas. There are kama kusala which arise in kama bhumis. Rupakusala are kusala that arise in connection with rupa jhana. And arupakusala are kusala that arise in connection with arupa jhana. Kama is sensuous things that are related to five senses. Kusala is wholesome. Bhumi means 'the place where sattas with similar characters arise and dwell'. To differentiate kama kusala from other kusala such as rupakusala, arupakusala, and lokuttara kusala which are magga cittas, kamavacara cittas are named as mahakusala cittas. Maha means 'great'. Mahakusala are cittas that arise as kusala cittas in kama bhumi. Mahavipaka cittas are just vipaka cittas or resultant consciousness. There are also ahetuka vipaka cittas. These ahetuka vipaka cittas are asobhana cittas. Sobhana vipaka cittas are also called sahetuka vipaka cittas because they have hetukas or roots. To differentiate kama from ahetuka vipaka, rupavipaka, and arupavipaka, kamavacara vipaka cittas are called mahavipaka cittas. By the same token, to differentiate kamavacara cittas from rupakiriya and arupakiriya, kamavacara cittas are called mahakiriya cittas. Vipaka cittas are resultant consciousness and they will not give rise to any kammic force or effects. So do kiriya cittas. Kiriya cittas are just performance and they do not have any kammic force. There are 8 mahakusala cittas. They are_ 1.somanassa sahagatam nana samyuttam asankharika mahakusala citta 2.somanassa sahagatam nana samyuttam sasankharika mahakusala citta 3.somanassa sahagatam nana vippayuttam asankharika mahakusala citta 4.somanassa sahagatam nana vippayuttam sasankharika mahakusala citta 5.upekkha sahagatam nana samyuttam asankharika mahakusala citta 6.upekkha sahagatam nana samyuttam sasankharika mahakusala citta 7.upekkha sahagatam nana vippayuttam asankharika mahakusala citta 8.upekkha sahagatam nana vippayuttam sasankharika mahakusala citta 8 mahavipaka cittas are all the same with the exception just to change the name mahavipaka instead of mahakusala. And 8 mahakiriya cittas are also the same names with the exception to replace mahakiriya citta. Here, nana means panna or wisdom. It is amoha cetasika. With unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44095 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 10:42am Subject: Guardian Meditations htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are caturarakkha dhamma or 4 guardian dhamma. They protect the bearers. What are they? These caturarakkha dhamma or 4 guardian dhamma or 4 guardian meditations are 1. Buddhaanussati 2. Mettaasati 3. Asubhasati 4. Maranassati The best reference is The Buddha. The Buddha is completely free of all defilements and all fetters and The Buddha is free of vaasanaa or habit. No one is superior to The Buddha. So 'the mindfulness with reference to The Buddha and The Buddha's attributes' are the best dhamma and this will protect the bearer of this dhamma who grow 'the mindfulness in The Buddha and The Buddha's attributes'. People who always live with metta have a good guardian. That guardian is metta. Metta guards them. Metta helps out to be free from enemies. This happens because metta is the opposite of enemies. Enemies include intrinsic and extrinsic or internal and external. Internal enemy is dosa or hatred. This enemy is the chief. If we can tackle him we will conquer all enemies. External enemies are like 'weapon, fire, poison, animals' etc etc. Metta protects the bearers of metta. Asubhasati also protects those who bear 'the mindfulness on beings regarding as 'foul' 'unattractive' 'disgusting' 'non-beautiful' etc. Subha sanna or 'the idea that attractive, beautiful, desirable' knock down the Dhamma practitioners if they are not mindful on Dhamma. When this sati or mindfulness is always with us, it will protect us. Maranassati or 'the mindfulness that death is inevitable' is also a good dhamma. Almost everyone is full of maana or conceit and this again adds many other akusala if not mindful. Maana or conceit encroaches in different forms and different intensities. Only arahats will be totally free of conceit or maana. Otherwise all other beings are full of maana or conceit. Marana or death is the best tool to deal with 'maana' or conceit. Maranassati protects the bears of 'the mindfulness on death'. These 4 caturarakkha dhamma should be borne daily and as frequently as possible. Whatever kind of meditation is being performed, all these 4 caturarakkha dhamma should be borne with us. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44097 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 0:21pm Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi everyone, According to the Pitaka is jhanacitta as rupavacara kusala citta and rupavacara kiriya citta attainable in kamavacara bhumi? I'm still wondering why post canonical commentators state that jhanacitta cannot have sensory form as object ... what the canonical precident for this understanding would be??? As always any help is greatly appreciated, Geoff 44098 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 1:06pm Subject: Forward from MomBetty (Re: Aeternum vale Rusty! Farewell forever) christine_forsy... Dear Group, I received this beautiful comforting letter off-list but thought, as there is permission to do so, that I would share it with you all. metta, Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: mombetty@... To: Christine Forsyth Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 11:56 PM Subject: sincere condolences Dear Chris, What can I say; I'm no good with words. As I read your beautiful eulogy about Rusty tears came to my eyes, but not so much out of sadness because that is attachment, but rather of joy for the love, care and respect you, Sarah and Luke gave him in his last days in this life. You made his passing as comfortable as it could possibly be in remembrance for the love and companionship he so freely gave you in this life. There is no better illustration of metta and karuna (and maybe upekha later, when you finally feel at peace), from you and your family given to Rusty in those last hours spent with him. And that was truly kusala. Than Ajarn told us many times that there is no control over the last javanas that arise just before the cuti citta, the javanas that help determine what the very next life is to be. But I truly believe that the last hours and minutes spent with Rusty, letting him smell the familiar scents of leaves and your being with him, stroking him, telling him you love him must have provided conditions for those last javana cittas to bring "him" to life again in a "sobhana" realm. I cannot possibly know for sure, but I take comfort in that it might be so. I'm sorry that one of the list members felt your beautiful eulogy was not fitting for DSG. But then, of what use is Dhamma if it is divorced from everyday life? Your entire eulogy was filled with Dhamma: a life of dana by Rusty and the wonderful arising of metta and karuna during Rusty's last hours by making his passing as comfortable as it could possibly be. It was a lovely lesson for all of us. With lots of anomodhana for this truly beautiful act of dana, much love, Betty PS: I felt I should send this to you directly, but if you wish to share it with DSG, then by all means do so. ________________________________________________________ Mom Bongkojpriya Yugala Bangkok 10900, Thailand 44099 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 1:51pm Subject: Re: Meditation/Stess/Research bupleurum Rahula: > Can anyone give me a few references to researches (in journal etc) > that supports the view that meditation reduces stress. > The following site has a huge, searchable database (100's of references) of research on the physical and psychological effects of meditation. It also has a series of on-line articles which summarize the research to date: http://www.noetic.org/research/medbiblio/ch_intro1.htm Best wishes, Matthew 44100 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 2:14pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Jon: > In the Dhamma, 'consciousness' is the name given > to a particular class of phenomena that can be > directly expereinced. It is not to be confused with > the conventional concept of consciousness (and it has > nothing to do with brain, which is not a phenomenon > that is experienced at all in our life). The brain is that which experiences. It has everything to do with dhamma. All mental activities (including dhamma practice) occur in the brain. The evidence for this is overwhelming at this point. The Buddha did not have access to this evidence, but would surely have elaborated a different theory of consciousness if he were born today instead of 2500 years ago. > The 'phenomena' of the Dhamma have no component parts > -- if they did then > those component parts, and not the compounded entity, > would be the phenomena spoken of ;-)) Could you give me an example of a "phenomenon" which has no component parts? Matthew 44101 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 3:18pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... Matthew, I will use material from an earlier post of mine to respond to this. In a talk given by Ajahn Brahmavamso, he relates a story of one of his lay followers who went into meditation and after hours was sent to hospital presumed dead. He was put on an ECG and EEG and no signal could be measured. The doctors tried to resuscitate him by applying a number of electric shocks to no avail. The meditator decided to exit his meditation feeling fine but was confused as to why he woke up in a hospital. So if the brain is where the mind "resides" or is in fact the mind, what happened to this meditator when his heart and brain showed no electrical activity whatsoever for a number of hours? I believe that once the brain does not receive oxygenated blood for a period of 6 minutes it is likely that the person will experience some sort of brain damage. What about a few hours? Death must surely be the outcome here. Anyway, check out Ajahn Bramavamso's talk (the story is relayed about 10-12 minutes into the talk). http://www.buddhistfellowship.org/Dhamma%20Talk_Download/AjahnBrahm_Jhan a-June 2003_talk_mp3.mp3 Kind Regards, Evan -- Jon > In the Dhamma, 'consciousness' is the name given > to a particular class of phenomena that can be > directly expereinced. It is not to be confused with > the conventional concept of consciousness (and it has > nothing to do with brain, which is not a phenomenon > that is experienced at all in our life). -- Matthew The brain is that which experiences. It has everything to do with dhamma. All mental activities (including dhamma practice) occur in the brain. The evidence for this is overwhelming at this point. The Buddha did not have access to this evidence, but would surely have elaborated a different theory of consciousness if he were born today instead of 2500 years ago. 44102 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 4:22pm Subject: Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau Hi Evan, --------------------------- E: > Great isn't it? It challenged a lot of my preconceptions too -------------------------- I don't share your enthusiasm for Ajahn Brahmavamso's teaching. Opinions similar to those raised in his book have already been discussed on DSG. So the four points I listed weren't just preconceptions, they were also post-conceptions. :-) ------------------------------------------------ E: > (the first 3 you mention I also understood about jhana). ------------------------------------------------- I wonder why you left out the fourth - "the Bodhisatta proved that jhana did not lead to final release from Dukkha." I was simply referring to the historical account where Gotama took leave of his jhana instructors, convinced that they had not shown him Nibbana. Here's a quote from 'The Buddha and His Teachings' by Narada Maha Thera: "Still he felt that his quest for the highest truth was not achieved. He had gained complete mastery of his mind, but his ultimate goal was far ahead. He was seeking for the highest, the Nibbana, the complete cessation of suffering, the total extinction of all forms of craving. Dissatisfied with this doctrine too, he departed thence, content therewith no longer. "He realised that his spiritual aspirations were far higher than those under whom he chose to learn. He realised that there was none capable enough to teach him what he yearned for - the highest truth. He also realised that the highest truth is to be found within oneself and ceased to seek external aid." In order to support his opinions, Ajahn Brahmavamso had to show that the Buddha had not learnt jhana under his two former teachers. He relied on the fact that the Bodhisatta later remembered having attained jhana as a small child. I admit, that does suggest his teachers had taught him something else. But do other writers draw that conclusion? Naradha certainly didn't, nor do any others I can think of. If I had to take a wild guess, I would say it related to the fact that the Buddha was entirely self-taught. It was a little bit like instances in our own lives where we have heard an explanation and said, "Oh yes, that's true! I knew that. It just slipped my mind." :-) --------------------------------------------- E: > I am re-evaluating what I understand about jhana and its "position" in Buddhism. --------------------------------------------- Changing the subject for a moment: I was suggesting to Charles recently that it was better to hear, discuss and consider the Dhamma, as found in the chosen texts, rather than to be interested in one's own understanding. Do you see the point I was getting at? --------------------------------------------------------- E: > As I see it though, it's ok for us to theorise and draw conclusions from suttas, abbhidamma and commentaries but when a bikkhu speaks from experience, one has to listen and re-evaluate ones position. ---------------------------------------------------------- I agree that every bhikkhu should be respected for his dedication, but there is no reason to believe his understanding has necessarily progressed further than our own. Besides, every meditation teacher (bhikkhu or not) seems to contradict every other mediation teacher in one way or another. Don't forget the story of 'the man, the boy and the donkey.' That ended in tragedy. :-) Ken H 44103 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 6:53pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Evan wrote: > In a talk given by Ajahn Brahmavamso, he relates a story of > one of his lay followers who went into meditation and > after hours was sent to hospital presumed dead. He was put > on an ECG and EEG and no signal could be > measured. > check out Ajahn Bramavamso's talk > http://www.buddhistfellowship.org/audio_downloads.htm Thanks for the link, Evan. I listened to the recording by Ajahn Brahmavamso. A very interesting anecdote. But, from a scientific point of view, that's all it is -- an anecdote. If someone were to reproduce what Brahmavamso claims occured (no EKG or EEG signal whatsoever, for hours) this would be an extraordinary discovery indeed. But as Carl Sagan used to say, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." I am very skeptical of Brahmavamso's story, and for a number of reasons. First of all, a voluminous amount of research has been done on meditation (you can find a large database of research here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/44099) Since the 1930s, scientists have been doing empirical studies of yoga and meditation. Many of the early researchers travelled throughout India with electro-encephalographs and accessory instruments to record respiration, skin temperature, skin conductance, and finger blood- volume changes in meditating yogis. There is a large amount of documentation of their findings, much of it summarized at the website above. Studies have confirmed that meditating yogis can produce remarkable changes in their autonomic functions. They can lower their EKG and pulse to very low levels. Amazing changes also occur in their EEG readings, including recurrent beta rhythms of 18-20 cycles per second. Similar studies have been done on practitioners in other traditions, including Japanese Zen, Tibetan Buddhism, TM and Theravadan Vipassana. However, none of these studies has ever documented a practitioner who was able to actually cease *all* of the electrical activity in the heart and/or brain. This would indeed be a miraculous feat since only a few minutes of oxygen deprivation is enough to do permanent brain damage. I don't believe that the frantic emergency room described in Brahmavamso's story is a very reliable source of information. It should not be difficult to reproduce those events under more controlled conditions. But based on all the evidence we have from a great many other studies, I wouldn't hold my breath. Matthew P.S. With the advent of modern imaging techniques, such as PET and MRI, research on the physiology of meditation has gone way beyond mere EEG and brain waves. See this article for a summary: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43610 44104 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 7:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma jonoabb Hi Matthew --- Matthew Miller wrote: ... > The brain is that which experiences. It has everything to do with > dhamma. All mental activities (including dhamma practice) occur in > the brain. The evidence for this is overwhelming at this point. The presently arising phenomena do not include a 'brain'. The existence of a brain at this moment can only be inferred. It is not part of the 'world' that appears and can be verified by direct experience. > The Buddha did not have access to this evidence, but would surely have > elaborated a different theory of consciousness if he were born today > instead of 2500 years ago. What in particular do you think would be different about the 4 Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, the 5 khandhas, the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha, anatta, etc, if the Buddha were born today insttead of 2500 years ago? > > The 'phenomena' of the Dhamma have no component parts > > -- if they did then > > those component parts, and not the compounded entity, > > would be the phenomena spoken of ;-)) > > Could you give me an example of a "phenomenon" which has no component > parts? Some examples are: seeing consciousness, the object experienced by seeing consciousness, hearing consciousness, the object experienced by hearing consciousness, hardness, attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa). Jon 44105 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 7:53 pm Subject: Re:thinking processes. buddhistmeditat... Dear RobertK (and Azita) - The drunken Santati's attainment of Arahantship in such a short period of time was a huge step change - an incredible transformation. Wasn't it an unusual case, Rob? I think Santati must have no other faults beside the drinking and clinging to sensuality. How would you explain this incredible story? Kind regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > There is the Dhammapada 142 commentary > Santati the minister: For seven days, the king's minister enjoyed > himself to his heart's content, getting intoxicated with drink and > infatuated with the young dancer. On the seventh day, riding the > ornamented royal elephant, he went down to the riverside for a bath. > On the way, he met the Buddha going on an alms-round, and being > drunk, he just bowed casually, as a sign of respect to the > Buddha. Santati and his party spent the whole day at the > riverside, bathing, eating, drinking and thus thoroughly enjoying > themselves. (snipped) The Buddha then instructed the minister in verse. > The meaning of the verse is as follows. > > "In the past there has been in you clinging (upadana) due to > craving; get rid of it. In future, do not let such clinging occur in > you. Do not also harbour any clinging in the present; by not having > any clinging, craving and passion will be calmed in you and you will > realize Nibbana." > > After hearing the verse, the minister attained arahatship" > RobertK 44106 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 8:41 pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 160- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (j) sarahprocterabb... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] Viriya accompanies all akusala cittas and all sobhana cittas (1) (including jhånacittas and lokuttara cittas), but it does not arise with all vipåkacittas and with all kiriyacittas. Viriya does not accompany the dvi-pañca-viññåùas, the sense-cognitions. Seeing or hearing do not need viriya in order to experience their objects. The mind-door adverting-consciousness, mano-dvåråvajjana-citta and the hasituppåda-citta which causes smiling in the case of arahats are the only ahetuka cittas (rootless cittas) which are accompanied by viriya (2). We read in the Visuddhimagga that the function of viriya is to consolidate conascent states. Viriya strengthens, supports the citta and the other cetasikas it accompanies so that they can carry out their work and do not “collapse”. *** 1) Sobhana cittas, beautiful cittas, are cittas accompanied by sobhana cetasikas. They include not only kusala cittas but also vipåkacittas accompanied by sobhana cetasikas and kiriyacittas (of the arahat) accompanied by sobhana cetasikas. The sobhana cittas of the sense-sphere, kåmåvacara sobhana cittas, are: mahå-kusala cittas, mahå-vipåkacittas and mahå-kiriyacittas. “Mahå” means: ”great”. Sobhana cittas also include jhånacittas and lokuttara cittas. 2) For details see Appendix 4. ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44107 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 10:24pm Subject: Re:thinking processes. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear RobertK (and Azita) - > > The drunken Santati's attainment of Arahantship in such a short period > of time was a huge step change - an incredible transformation. Wasn't > it an unusual case, Rob? I think Santati must have no other faults > beside the drinking and clinging to sensuality. > > How would you explain this incredible story? > > > --------------- Dear tep, not so incredible I think. He had developed the right path for aeons, it was time. The commentary to this sutta notes that the alcohol in his blood was burned away as insight grew. This life is only a tiny moment in samsara and so we need to strive to find the right way, if we make efforts in the wrong path it will only prolong samsara and lead to more wrong effort in future lives. Robertk 44108 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 10:55pm Subject: Musings3 - Recollection of Death and other special reflections sarahprocterabb... Dear Htoo, Chris, Azita, RobK & All, I mentioned that ‘we also discussed how samatha (calm) cannot be developed by paying special attention to particular objects’. We were reminded that there is no need for any particular reflections, such as reflections on the Buddha’s virtues or recollections on death, for example. Otherwise, again there’s bound to be attachment when there’s any idea of specially thinking of any object in order to have calm and attachment is likely to arise after such reflections too. As we know, the path is subtle and we may not be aware of the attachments and expectations creeping in at these times. Even at such times of special attending, however, there can be moments of satipatthana, understanding the mental states when there’s such ‘trying to think’ with attachment. Of course, this doesn’t mean there cannot naturally and spontaneously be wholesome reflections on the Buddha’s virtues or death or other objects in our ordinary daily life, but I think it’s easy to misunderstand passages such as the following one as suggesting instructions to follow, rather than a description of the wise as we’ve discussed in other contexts: "The monk devoted to this recollection of death is at all time indefatigable, gains the idea of disgust with regard to all forms of existence, gives up delight in life, detests evil, does not hoard up things, is free from stinginess with regard to the necessities of life, the idea of impermanence (anicca) becomes familiar to him; and through pursuing it, the idea of misery (dukkha) and of impersonality (anattá) become present to him .... Free from fear and bewilderment will he pass away at death; and should he not yet realize the Deathless State in his life-time, he will at the dissolution of the body attain to a happy course of existence" (Vis.M. VIII). ***** As we were reminded in this context, it’s very easy to stick to the words of the teachings, without any understanding at this moment. We can talk about maranussati (recollection of death) for example or set aside a time for these reflections, but what about this moment? It’s only thinking, not understanding the present dhammas, or the arising and falling away of these dhammas now. We also discussed how there cannot be any growth of samatha (calm) or developed wholesome concentration, such as access(upacara), without momentary calm being apparent first. If we give or have metta now, the calm may not be apparent. But when there’s more development of these or other kinds of wholesome states, the calm shows up and becomes more and more apparent in ordinary life. Again, this is not by any wishing or special attention. So the purpose is not to specially concentrate, but to understand any dhammas appearing in daily life. Attachment and calm are dhammas that need to be clearly distinguished. We also discussed the differences between the development of concentration and calm. (to be contd). Metta, Sarah ========= 44109 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 sarahprocterabb... Hi Andrew L, (Tep, AN inquirer see* at end of post) Thank you for being patient – I believe I replied to 3 of your big posts before I went away, but have another couple which I didn’t get to in front of me:-). I was also very glad to see you having discussions with Connie, Jon and others and to read your reports on your meeting with B.Bodhi* As usual, in this post you raise good questions: --- Andrew Levin wrote: > Creating more metta will still be a challenge, as will maintaining it, > but reading about metta and > harmlessness has helped. I have sent out thoughts of harmlessness to my > ex's, over a mile past my > house from my bedroom when I was first being introduced to dharma. Less > rigid thought patterns, > and getting metta to flow, was how it was done. .... S: We had a big laugh in Bkk last week when one friend was talking about the metta he had for Jon when he was far, far away (as opposed to sitting near him in a dhamma discussion:-)). The point was that metta is friendliness or kindness, without it being any special person when we’re on the bus, in the same room, going to the store and so on. It’s like generosity – we can think about it in our bedroom, but what about the actual sharing and giving when we have opportunities? (This doesn’t mean you can’t have kind thoughts or metta even at other times on your own, but whether on our own or with people, the near enemy of attachment is always nearby, I think). .... > This brings me to a point I should have made earlier. I still want you > to know that I think people can > follow the instructions from a book, from an online PDF, and create > metta, and do contemplations and > meditations as found in Vism. and countless other, modern, and ancient > texts. In the Vism, do we not > have the statement that for repulsiveness of the body meditation one > should go to a good friend, and > learn the skills? One has to recite the names of the body parts orally > and mentally for just under a year > and learn other skills as well. Then one goes to a secluded place and > begins contemplating on each of > the body parts until one becomes clearest. .... S: This is not how I understand the passages. See my last message (Musings3). I think such following of instructions are motivated by clinging to Self – trying to have metta, repulsiveness for the body and so on, rather than understanding what is conditioned at this very moment of trying so hard. ..... > I brought up the additional example of having read a PDF where the > instructor recommended one find > a characteristic or manifestation of each element in a specific part of > the body, say, the mouth, and go > on to try to detect similar qualities throughout the body to eventually > be mindful of the elements > throughuot the entire body. This, too, is sort of done by a person > intentionally, a deliberate practise. > However this is not just waiting for conditions to come up. ... S: As you point out, this is ‘done by a person intentionally’. It is not the understanding of elements as anatta, as conditioned dhammas. Awareness and understanding have to develop with detachment, not selection. .... > Additionally, you can look at the nine charnel contemplations as an > example of something we must > deliberately do (if we choose to do it, that is), not just fit into > daily life. And even if we do do > Abhidhamma in 'daily life' I read in Nina's book that we are to be > mindful of realities appearing in the > moment. Isn't this similar to what I proposed, being mindful in the > present moment, only making my > practise the focus of my life, not having my practise be recognizing > something here and there in a > completely diferent life. .... S: When it’s something ‘we must deliberately do’, it’s not understanding in daily life. Did you read the discussion between Ken H and Htoo on this topic? It was very good. Being aware of realities appearing now is not the same as having a special practice as you describe. No self can be aware and if there’s any trying to be aware, the reality is attachment, not awareness. .... > I have given you the example of sati, of how I have established > mindfulness of the entire body, which > transfers over to mindfulness in sitting meditation. Nina proposes to > counter ignorance or aversion we > need mindfulness. Again, what do you see this mindfulness as. .... S: What you describe as mindfulness, I see as a special focusing. The mindfulness which counters ingnorance or aversion is not any focusing, but the momentary awareness which arises, is aware of any dhamma appearing (without any selection) and falls away immediately. If there is a wish or intention for it to arise or be aware of a particular object such as sensations in the body, this will be a hindrance, as I see it. .... >And how > would you distinguish the > kind of mindfulness I talk about, being aroused intentionally, vs the > kind of mindfulness that you > speak about that is for one nama or rupa, but does not have the four > foundations of mindfulness as its > proximate cause (instead discussing the teachings?)? .... S: the four foundations are the proximate cause: hardness, softness, heat, cold, feeling, anger, attachment, seeing, visible object – these are examples of dhammas included in the four foundations. Without the arising of such dhammas, mindfulness cannot be mindful when one appears (i.e is the object of the javana cittas). It’s impossible for mindfulness or any other dhamma to be ‘aroused intentionally’ except in our imaginations. .... >Please forgive me > if I addressed this in one of > the other two posts on this thread, I just feel it's an essesntial > point. If you can, please go back to > where I described this originally and think about it. We should be able > to reconcile these two views, > don't you think? ... S: I agree it is THE essential point. Whilst we continue to think that dhammas can be controlled or that there is a self to do this, there won’t be any awareness of namas and rupas as elements. I don’t honestly think there is any reconciliation between the ideas of following a manual to be aware of particular objects (often not even dhammas) in order and understanding what satipatthana really means. <....> > Right but can't we endeavor to learn about different realities by way of > thinking ourselves into learning > about them, say, by reading about the characteristics of dosa, moha, and > lobha, in > Nina's 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life?' .... S: It’s helpful, very helpful, to read and reflect on different realities as you’re doing. I’m not exactly sure of your Qu, but if you’re wondering if we can think ourselves into being aware of dhammas, then the answer is no. We can read and consider in order to understand dhammas as anatta better, but not specially try to experience what we read about. .... > I'm with you for non-conceptual awareness, but would you believe me if a > noble one told me to > note 'aversion, aversion' where it appears? .... S: I would say, be wary of any advice in the name of ‘a noble one’. See my Musings2 post. Noting ‘aversion, aversion’ where it appears is not the development of satipatthana as I understand. Andrew, please don’t be misled by what you’ve heard about others’ attainments. ... > Sorry if this one's a little messy, I had to rush to get the post in. > 45-50 minutes for computer group. ... S: It wasn’t messy at all. Good points and I enjoy our discussions. I apologise for sounding so emphatic at times. Metta, Sarah *Tep and Andrew, sometimes I draw B.Bodhi’s attention to particular posts here, so I will do this with your report of the meeting and Tep’s Qus. He may or may not respond, but if he does, I’ll forward any response to the list. (I’ll try to do it next week sometime). If anyone has anything else they’d like me to draw to his attention, pls let me know here in the next few days. Someone (I forget who- Geoff?) asked about the translations of Anguttara Nikaya. The only complete translation for now is the PTS one, but BB has been working on his complete translation (expanding the excellent anthology ‘Numerical Discourses’) for sometime. The work has been hampered a lot by his long-standing headaches. As I write this, I’ve just remembered that there is a translation of AN on line here, along with the Pali: http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/index.html ==== 44110 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 2 sarahprocterabb... Hi Andrew L, Here’s the second one: --- Andrew Levin wrote: > I do not know that sati arises with all kinds of wholesome > consciousness, at all. I know that it can > maintain wholesome states and prevent negative, unwholesome states but > it is new to me that it arises > with all wholesome states. If this is true. ... S: We need to distinguish between sati (awareness) which arises with all wholesome consciousness – any moment of dana, sila or bhavana—and sati in satipatthana which only aware of a nama or rupa and is always accompanied by right understanding. .... > It seems to me that if wise reflection can condition sati, or reflecting > on the nature of a nama or rupa > after discussion about it or reading the dhamma, it is not such a long > jump to say that sati can be > conditioned intentionally, through sitting meditation. .... S: It can never be conditioned intentionally by any means in that it arises dependent on conditions such as wise reflection, not on a wishing or special intention to have it arise. There is a big difference between atta view and anatta view. .... >At the least, > wholesome deeds conditioning sati > can get a good portion of it going. What other methods are there for > the arising of sati, that you > acknowledge, and do I get you right, that it is your position that sati > can be mindful of nama and rupa > by discussing the nature of that particular nama or rupa? This would > seem to contradict your position > that we have to wait for whichever nama and rupa comes to the fore on > any given occasion to be > mindful of it. ... S: More good questions. I know it may seem contradictory but it’s not. Remember, it’s not self that performs good deeds, discusses namas and rupas or waits. The discussion is merely for the purpose of understanding that whether we do this or that, there are in fact only conditioned namas and rupas arising and falling away and not in anyone’s control. Right now as we speak there is seeing and visible object. There can be immediate awareness of one of these when their characteristics appear. When seeing appears and awareness arises (not by any trying), there is no other world, no thinking, no hearing, no Andrew or Sarah at all. It’s just the dhamma which experiences what is seen. Likewise, if there’s awareness of what is seen (i.e visible object), there is no sound, no thought, nothing else appearing at that moment. There are no problems, no disturbances, no clinging to details. No one can choose to have seeing, visible object, hearing or any other dhamma appear at any instant. Now there may be a subtle attention or trying to experience seeing, but this is another dhamma – thinking or attachment—and these too can be known. .... > There is some correlation here with your view and mine, for instance, if > wrong views arise, or moha > or dosa, it is said (in ADL, and by inference I assume that you agree > with this stance) that being > mindful of it is the way to eradicate these defilements. .... S: yes. If wrong view, moha or any other defilement doesn’t appear, it can’t be known and gradually eradicated. So instead of being dismayed, we can welcome any defilements as objects of satipatthana. (btw, sometime I wan’t to correct something I said before about wrong view and kamma patha, but will do so later, maybe in a Musing). .... > Please describe further how the sati that you describe can be cultivated > and what other function(s) it > has. Certainly one moment of sati conditions the next, but there must > be an initial cause. .... S: Here we are talking about sati of satipatthana. It develops by firstly understanding its characteristic and then beginning to understand when it arises. This may sound simple but it isn’t because there is so little and it’s so weak in the beginning, surrounded by lots of ignorance. So it’s common for there to be doubts and uncertainties. (KenH & Charles,: in the Kalama sutta, it reads ‘you may well doubt’ {i.e it’s natural to doubt], not ‘you should doubt’ – as you say, doubt is always unwholesome). The initial cause for sati is reflection or ‘firm remembrance’ whilst reflection on the teachings as Azita and Nina have been discussing. If we don’t hear/read and consider carefully about namas and rupas, there won’t be any development of sati. If we reflect and try to have sati arise, there also won’t be any sati:-). .... > Certainly right view does not encompass complex theories about the > detailed workings of worlds, but > it has been said that right view should include knowledge that beings > are reborn spontaneously, and or > in accordance with their deeds (kamma & vipaka) and it should include > knowledge of suffering and its > origin, cessation, and way to practise for its cessation (ie, reflection > on the four noble truths, mundane > right view.) .... S: It has to develop. If there is no clear understanding of namas and rupas directly, there cannot be any higher understanding. .... >I would like to discuss this more with you, as right view > is the first path factor that should > be cultivated in the Noble Eightfold Path, and in one of the books I am > reading to foster right view, > ("The Four Noble Truths" by Francis Story) the author talks about the > psychological mechanism > whereby suffering is suppressed from coming to the fore of our > consciousness and we therefore take > refuge in pleasure and pleasurable experiences. .... S: Before there can be any understanding of the Truth of Suffering as inherent in all conditioned dhammas, those dhammas have to be directly known first. In other words, if there is no awareness of seeing or visible object, there won’t be any understanding of the impermanence of those dhammas or the suffering as a result of such impermanence. ... >I have seen suffering > of other people and recognized > my own, but reflecting on this, and the principles of kamma, to create > something that can qualify as > right view, is not an easy task. ... S: Right. This is just thinking about suffering and kamma rather than directly understanding them. If you look in U.P. under ‘dukkha’, you’ll see there are 3 kinds of dukkha. What you see and experience is the first kind, ‘dukkha, dukkha’ (unpleasant mental and bodily experiencies), rather than the second kind (of change) or the third kind which is the inherent dukkha of all conditioned dhammas. It’s good you appreciate the difficulty. ... > I again would disagree that wrong view of self is the cause of all wrong > views. ... S: When wrong view of self is eradicated, so are all other wrong views. We can discuss this further, but this is getting too long now, so I’ll wait for any replies from you to any of my earlier posts or these ones first. Many thanks for all your other helpful comments which I’ve had to snip. Look forward to hearing how any of mine sound and where you see the differences now. Metta, Sarah ====== 44111 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 1:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Ken, > > I > > http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/thejhanas.pdf > > Kind Regards, > > Evan >======== Dear Evan, wow, I just read the article. Surprisng that a Theravada monk would write something like this. Do you know him, maybe you can help him to drop his beliefs? Robertk 44112 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 1:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] I am new and Learning sarahprocterabb... Dear Inga (and any other Newbies), --- ingafrankie wrote: > For someone who is very new and wanting to learn more. What would you > suggest for myself to read and study. > Thanks for any help ... Firstly, a belated welcome from me to DSG!. Please consider telling us a little more about yourself and where you live. I know Jon and Nina gave brief replies. I'd suggest: 1) Ask your own questions (the simpler the better) and just follow these threads or others in simple language until you have more familiarity with Pali terms and the various ideas being discussed here. 2) As Jon suggested, look at the posts under 'New to the list and new to Dhamma' in Useful Posts in the files section. 3) Look at either of these books by Nina Van Gorkom: 'Buddhism in Daily Life' or 'The Buddha's Path' and see if you find them helpful. If so, consider downloading them for easier reading: http://www.vipassana.info/ http://www.abhidhamma.org/ http://www.zolag.co.uk/ 4) Print out the simple Pali glossary in the files section 5)Keep a link to Nyantiloka's dictionary handy for understanding more about key terms or concepts: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic_idx.html 6) Let us know how you're getting one. We've all been new to it all and you'll do us a favour by asking any questions or making any comments of your own. Metta, Sarah ======== 44113 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 1:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H sarahprocterabb... Hi KenH (& Evan), You're having a good discussion. --- kenhowardau wrote: > > By the way, there was typo in my previous message: I meant to say a > dvihetu-patisandhika (person born with only two of the three noble > root conditions) was born with alobha and adosa - not amoha and > adosa. ... S: I didn't notice the typo, but wasn't sure that it was correct to suggest those with two roots could develop satipatthana. It's a bit of a sensitive one as I know someone else (maybe Kel) has suggested that those with two roots can attain to the highest insights, but not become sotapannas. This was contrary to my understanding, so I asked for a reference which I'm patiently waiting for:-). Meanwhile, I don't believe that any development of satipatthana is possible for them in this life, though other kinds of kusala, such as dana and sila are, which may act as supporting conditions for satipatthana in future. Some people listened to the Buddha but didn't develop any understanding. In any case, it's not an important point and easily leads to speculations about things we can have no idea about:-/. ... > Possibly, yes, but I would think it extremely unlikely. The hard > part of jhana development is not so much living in rags at the foot > of a tree in the middle of nowhere: the hard part is getting to the > stage where taking up that lifestyle would be a beneficial thing to > do. For us ordinary people, hunger, cold, biting insects, > isolation, etc., etc., would be the last things to bring about > tranquillity. .... :-)) Metta, Sarah p.s Evan, are you in Australia too?Y ======== 44114 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 2:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Having no opinions sarahprocterabb... Hi James (& Joop), --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > Hi Sarah and Joop, > > Sarah: In any case I thought James told Nina he was just going quiet > and reading posts. > > James: Yes, that is right, I haven't left the group. I am just > reading posts and seeing how things develop. ... S:Thanks for clarifying and for your other comments. Now Bali – how about a DSG get together there if India and Thailand don’t work for you???:-). Seriously, I thought I always communicated with everyone here in a friendly style, but you’ve pointed out the delusion I must work with:-/ Let’s hope things don’t go rapidly downhill now that we’re back to ‘control and overshadow things’. Sounds most ominous. It’s actually a bit of a mystery to me as to whether you’re really happy or sad when we go away, but no need to answer that. ... > James: I liked what Kel had to say about that also. He had his head > on straight. Unfortunately, I am not so magnanimous. .... S: Oh well, we all have different strengths and weaknesses. As Nina pointed out, you have your own good qualities, most importantly, a very keen studying and questioning of the Teachings and great confidence in them. No need to compare oneself with others, otherwise most likely mana (conceit) will be there again as it is for all of us so much more often than we like to admit. Perhaps we can just learn to appreciate any examples of magnanimity or other good states we see and this in itself is a kind of ‘anumodana’ or rejoicing in others’ good fortune, a kind of mudita (sympathetic joy) which I referred to yesterday. I find it makes life so much easier when there is more mudita in daily life ( it’s free and doesn’t depend on anyone’s praise:-)). I think it's a very important quality that is not discussed much outside Buddhist countries or communities - rejoicing in others generosity, good sila, kindness, good fortune of any kind and so on. Some of your comments reminded me of some similar ones that another friend made a long time ago. Here are the links to a couple of replies which I found helpful by Kom and Betty, following some reminders of Howard’s which I also found useful and compassionate: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12884 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12887 Just ignore them if they don’t work for you. I’m always very glad to hear any of your reflections on any aspects of the Dhamma, James and once again, I apologise for any of my short-comings. Let me know if there are any Dhamma topics you’d like to discuss anytime. Metta, Sarah ========> 44115 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa Madness: Seeing with the Tongue sarahprocterabb... Hi Matthew*(RobM & James), Another oldie- I'm actually very interested to see where your various threads lead. Many of the articles you point to are in areas where I have an interest as I mentioned, but the difference is that I don't see them as having any bearing on understanding any Truths of any real significance in life (i.e for understanding the 4 Noble Truths) which is why I turned to the dhamma, paticularly the abhidhamma when I became disillusioned with psychology and cognitive science as being able to really make sense of the world. --- Matthew Miller wrote: > From a scientific point of view, abhidhamma is based on 1) scriptural > authority, and/or 2) personal observation of one's own consciousness > (introspection). While useful, these are actually the two poorest > forms of evidence. The difficulties with scriptural authority should > be obvious, so I'll focus on introspection. ... S: From a scientific point of view, yes. From an understanding of (abhi)dhamma, I'm not sure I see it being based on either of these. .... > At best, introspection is one tool among many for learning about the > mind. But it is not without its flaws. > > Some have held that introspective access to one's mental states cannot > be erroneous or, at least, that it overrides all other evidence. > Descartes is famous for this. The Abhidhamma seems to fall in this > camp as well, with its insistence that nama/rupa arising in > consciousness are "ultimate realities." ... S: I agree that introspection is very unreliable. I don't equate the development of satipatthana with introspection (a kind of thinking about experiences). Namas and rupas can be proved by the development of satipatthana to be 'ultimate realities' or any other name. Seeing can be tested and proved right now to be a nama without any self in it. Visible object can be proved to be the dhamma which is seen, the only light reality. If it wasn't possible, the Buddha wouldn't have taught the path. it can never be understood through scientific research. Incidentally, I tried to find (without success)a detailed post I wrote to RobM in a good discussion we had on another area of research you touched on relating to areas of the brain which researchers conclude is related to 'self' and 'non-self' awareness. Rob, can you give a link to our earlier discussion or my post as I think Matthew might find it interesting. James may have also participated. If either of you have any further comments, I'd be glad of your input here too. .... > But introspection can be very erroneous. Psychological research has > found that, in introspection, we often misrepresent our own mental > states. Many introspective judgments result from confabulation. > People literally invent mental states to explain their own behavior in > ways that are expected or acceptable. Daniel Dennett and others have > argued that all introspective reports can be treated as reports of > useful fictions. ... S: I agree with all this - it has no connection with insight as far as I know. It's like when people discuss their meditative experiences without having heard about namas and rupas. .... > Blindsight is a well-documented phenomenon in which a blind person can > accurately point to an object. In the time of the Buddha, this would > certainly have been taken as a example of ESP or mystical power. .... S: I'm not so sure at all.....I think there may well be other explanations. Metta, Sarah *When some of us referred recently to meeting Matt in Bkk, it was to Matt R, not to Matthew M, addressed here as Matt also by some. ===== 44116 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 7, 2005 11:00pm Subject: Away for Weekend upasaka_howard Hi, all - I will reply to any posts intended for me after the weekend. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44117 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 1:20am Subject: OK - Kalama Sutta - Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles I see some thing needs to be clarified that is a tad off a point I was trying to make. http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/news/essay09.html There is some truth to this link. The Goal of the Kalama Sutta is to point people (free thinkers and bounded thinkers) to what is really important and true, and that they should not be ignore what is really important and true just because .... What is true and important "When you yourselves know: 'These things are bad, blamable, censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them... When you yourselves know: 'These things are good, blameless, praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them." " Now ask your self -- does doctrine, ...etc. fall under this, no. Therefore it is ok to doubt. However don't doubt those things that are bad, blamable, ...etc. This means it is ok to doubt the doctrine of no-self, but don't doubt that it is bad to steal, ...etc. Don't doubt the effects of morality and immorality. ----- Original Message ----- From: Christine Forsyth <...> Hello KenH, Charles,and all, This is from Bhikkhu Bodhi's article on "A look at the Kalama Sutta" "On the basis of a single passage, quoted out of context, the Buddha has been made out to be a pragmatic empiricist who dismisses all doctrine and faith, and whose Dhamma is simply a freethinker's kit to truth which invites each one to accept and reject whatever he likes. But does the Kalama Sutta really justify such views? Or do we meet in these claims just another set of variations on that egregious old tendency to interpret the Dhamma according to whatever notions are congenial to oneself -- or to those to whom one is preaching?" http://www.vipassana.com/resources/bodhi/look_at_kalama_sutta.php <...> 44118 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 2:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles Hi Ken, KH: > > I see what you mean, however, the conditioned dhamma known as faith (saddha), is not blind faith: it is confidence in wholesomeness. Saddha could never 'block out the Truth.' ---------------------------- C: > It is blind when the faith is not based on the "experience" (i.e., seen, heard,etc...) as the truth. When you think it is true because it is logical, or a teacher --including the Buddha--, etc..., convinces you of its truth. I have no-clue what you could mean by: "Saddha could never 'block out the Truth.'" ------------------- KH: I agreed that faith, in the ordinary sense of the word, could be wholesome or unwholesome. When it is unwholesome [blind] faith it can, as you said, "block you from seeing the truth." Then I said, "However, the conditioned dhamma known as faith (saddha) is not blind faith; it is confidence in wholesomeness." Do you see the difference? An absolute reality always has the same characteristics, function and manifestation. Saddha can only be kusala: it can never be akusala. So, for example, it could never "block you from seeing the truth." ............................................. Faith is empty (neither wholesome or unwholesome), what you have faith-in can be considered wholesome or unwholesome. So, is your faith/confidence in the no-self doctrine "blind" or based on what you have experienced as true? **************************** KH: > > . . . Therefore, it is not justifiable to think of faith or doubt <. . .> in those ways. To think of either of them, "This is mine," is to have attachment (lobha); "This am I" is to have conceit (mana), and, "This is my self," is to have wrong view (miccha-ditthi). They are unwholesome (akusala) misconceptions. ------------------- C: > I don't understand what you are trying to say. ------------------- K: I was simply trying to say what the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta says. There can't be right understanding of a dhamma when it is conceived with the notion, "This is mine" "This am I" or "This is my self." Do you have a different interpretation? ......................................... If at the moment of conception, with the three (I, my-self, mine), you are place/born in a cycle that leads to suffering, then you are right. However, if it does not place "you" in a cycle that leads to suffering, then you are wrong. Remember the real issues are "desire" and "attachment." Therefore, if you understand how to transform/transmute these two so that you can avoid the cycles of suffering, even when the three (I, my-self, mine) are born, you have the Right Understanding. ******************** KH: > > I would suggest that other disciplines (e.g., music, science, sport, religion) could be effectively studied and practised with unwholesome (as well as wholesome) consciousness. The Dhamma, however, requires purely kusala study and purely kusala practice. ----------------------------------- C: > Wrong again, I know of killers who use Dhamma to sharpen their skills as killers. Now if you consider killing as wholesome, well ... What is a "purely kusala study and purely kusala practice?" -------------------- KH: If we are listening to a Dhamma talk for the wrong reasons - attachment, aversion or ignorance - then that listening will not lead to insight. Killers might listen to a Dhamma talk in order to sharpen their killing skills, but that is not Dhamma study: it won't increase their insight, and it won't lead to enlightenment. As uninstructed worldlings, we can be pretty sure most of our listening will be for the wrong reasons (including subtle attachment). However, if there is a moment when the Dhamma is heard with non-attachment and non-aversion, then there is kusala consciousness at that one precious moment, and progress towards insight will be made. .............................................. This is also true (90%) for any type of study, science and music included, not just Dharama. I say 90% because if you look at that "insight" as just clear understanding alone then ... Now if that clear understanding is rooted in morality then, you are 100% correct. ***************** C: > Have you experienced this as true, or do you except this by faith? Often, faith and doubt, is what keeps you trapped; lost in I, me, and mine. ---------------- KH: I am trying to say that I don't see Dhamma study and Dhamma practice in quite the same way you do. Rather than have conventional theories about faith, doubt, love, hate, and all the other mental factors, I just want to understand the actual dhammas; saddha, vicikiccha, adosa, dosa, and so on. So for me, Dhamma study is the study of dhammas. That might seem dry and impersonal, but it is the only way to go (in my opinion). ..................................... What do you mean by "saddha, vicikiccha, adosa, dosa, and so on?" ********************* C: > > > So you disagree with the Kalama suttra? A case in point: The Buddha claimed that experience is the truth you should accept as real (Ref:Kalama Suttra). However, scientist today have proven that the senses can be fooled, therefore what you experience may not be real. This is a contradiction, and you should be asking your-self, "So what can be relied on as Truth/real?" ------------------------- K: > > I like that, and I agree entirely. ------------------------- C: > So are you ready to go for the Masters? ------------------ KH: I agreed for reasons that you might consider wrong reasons. And then I rambled on with a lot of rubbish that doesn't mean much to me - now that I look at it again. The Kalama Sutta is hard to interpret. At first sight, it seems to be saying that doubt (vicikiccha) can be a good thing. But vicikiccha is an unwholesome paramattha dhamma - it can never be a good thing. As you have often said, difficulty in explaining indicates a shaky grasp of the subject matter. I might leave it to others to explain my understanding of the Kalama Sutta. :-) I will just say that the KS is frequently misquoted. Contrary many popular interpretations, it does not tell us to value our own experiences above the teaching of a Buddha. ......................................... When you say "... doubt (vicikiccha) ... is an unwholesome paramattha dhamma - it can never be a good thing." I am force to say, you are being one dimensional, extreme. You have lost sight of the Middle Path. What the KS does tell us. If a teaching of any type, including a Buddha's, contradicts what you know to true, value what you know to be true more. ChgarlesD 44119 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] dacostacharles Hi Evan, You asked: {To those that believe the brain is everything or the brain is mind, the link below is to a talk by Ajahn Brahmavamso (about 6MB download) in which he describes a meditator who while in Jhana was about to be pronounced dead. My question is: how can one be "dead" but still have a mind if it is the brain that provides the mind? } I am sure that Ajahn Brahmavamso would agree that when one is in the high Jhana, there is very little mind activity. When there is very there is very little mind activity, there is very little brain activity. If your brain activity is well below normal (not necessarily 0), you would be pronounced dead. However, sciences has admitted that there are still discoveries to be made (they don't know it all). CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Evan Stamatopoulos To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 06 April, 2005 02:49 Subject: [dsg] http://www.buddhistfellowship.org/Dhamma%20Talk_Download/AjahnBrahm_Jhan a-June 2003_talk_mp3.mp3 Evan 44120 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeing with the Tongue dacostacharles Hi Andrew, You say "The point I was trying to make - and didn't do a very clear job of it - is that it is a mistake to equate "natural" with "ethical". " I agree 100% but then I am not a complete evolutionist. In the evolutionist camp, what is natural is ethical, but what is natural is different for each species. For example, it would be unnatural for a primate child to eat its mother. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrew <...> Andrew: In schoolbooks in Elizabethan England, children were encouraged to copy the "good" behaviour of bees and ants - "working hard", "devotion to a Queen", "thrift" and so on. But that was, of course, people superimposing their own ethical outlook on nature. As Gould pointed out, none of these schoolbooks ever dealt with creatures that DIDN'T fit with the ethical ideas of the authors e.g. there is a species of wasp in which the newly born young devour their mother! Nobody ever told the school kiddies that this was "natural" behaviour and therefore "good". Charles, with your comments, you are merely superimposing your own ethical ideas onto nature and saying "this is good" but "that is bad". The point I was trying to make - and didn't do a very clear job of it - is that it is a mistake to equate "natural" with "ethical". <....> 44121 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 2:59am Subject: Re: A Question Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles Hi Jon, You ask the following good questions: { 1) You mention 'transforming a samsaric experience into an enlightening one'. Can you put that in more specific terms (preferably by reference to something in the suttas or other texts)? 2) You seem to be saying that single-pointed concentration on an object must involve clinging. If so, what do you understand by the development of samatha/jhana? } The Idea of 'transforming a samsaric experience into an enlightening one' is a Mahayana concept. And, from a Therevadin prospective, it is based on something call the Radiant Wheel of Dependant Origination. I am sorry to say I can't remember the suttra references, but hopefully I will be vesting a Tai (Forest monk tradition) center in a few weeks, so I intend on getting the book on DO that talks about the Radiant Wheel. Samatha/jhana is not a natural state, you work at creating and preserving it. If you have to work at keeping the state, you are clinging to it (Mahayanist like to call this transformed clinging). The analogy of the monkey mind is more natural. I am defining clinging very broadly, "to resist separation from, or the changing of." CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 04 April, 2005 10:28 Subject: Re: A Question Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 Charles DaCosta wrote: > This is a tough one (the idea) so I understand why you could be feeling > lost. > "In a nut shell" > > The point of not suffering even though there is clinging is based on the > principle of transforming a samsaric experience into an enlightening > one. This takes wisdom concentration, and morality/basic goodness. > > An example of this is the practice of single pointed meditation that is > fixed on an object. We are actually clinging to the object. > > Does that help?? 44122 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 4:17am Subject: Re: Musings3 - Recollection of Death and other special reflections htootintnaing So the purpose is not to specially concentrate, but to understand any dhammas appearing in daily life. Attachment and calm are dhammas that need to be clearly distinguished. We also discussed the differences between the development of concentration and calm. (to be contd). Metta, Sarah ========= -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah, I think there is needed to penetrate conventional things. Ultimate things cannot voice itself. But through conventional things. I know 'someone is going to a forest and sit under a tree with crossed leg with erect body and trying to develop sati and panna'. With Great Compassion, Htoo Naing 44123 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 4:19am Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma htootintnaing Hi, Will deal with later. Htoo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sunnaloka" wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > According to the Pitaka is jhanacitta as rupavacara kusala citta and > rupavacara kiriya citta attainable in kamavacara bhumi? > > I'm still wondering why post canonical commentators state that > jhanacitta cannot have sensory form as object ... what the canonical > precident for this understanding would be??? > > As always any help is greatly appreciated, > > Geoff 44124 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 7:31am Subject: Re: Seeing with the Tongue bupleurum Andrew: > Charles, with your comments, you are > merely superimposing your own ethical ideas onto nature and > saying "this is good" but "that is bad". > it is a mistake to equate "natural" with "ethical". I agree with you about superimposing primate ethics onto the behavior of ants and bees. However, these ethics are not just anyone's "own ethical ideas." Our ethical instincts are those of primates and they evolved in the natural world. We are communal creatures, and we evolved an ethics which reflects the demands of a interdependence between highly intelligent creatures. Our own ethical behavior is based on thoughts and feelings of guilt, reciprocity, obligation, expectations, rules, and community concern which are adaptations to our unique primate social situation. This situation evolved over millions of years. Like dogs, elephants and other communal creatures, we are remarkably trainable since we have adapted to a rule-based social order. Dogs are an example of another species that have and obey social rules; that's why we like them so much, even though they're large carnivores. On the other hand, our moral sensibilities are often appalled by the behavior of animals less similar to us, such as cuckoos. Cuckoos are parasitic birds that lay their eggs in the nests of other birds, which then act as unknowing foster parents. After hatching, the baby cuckoo will throw the host's own chicks out of the nest. From our primate point of view, cuckoos violate all kinds of precepts :-) In behaving this way, are cuckoos accumulating bad karma? If someone were to answer yes, then I would suggest that they are "superimposing" primate morality on a cosmic scale. Matthew 44125 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 7:46am Subject: Dhamma Thread (307) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kinds of death or 'catu maranuppatti'. Death is cessation of life. 'Aayukkhayena, kammakkhayena, ubhayakkhayena, upacchedaka kammunaa ceti catudhaa maranuppatti naama'. Aayu means 'lifespan' 'life' 'existence'. Khaya means 'used up' 'emptied' 'expiration'. Ubhaya means 'both' 'two'. Upacchedaka is 'cutting up when both lifespan and kamma still allow further staying or further living or further existing'. Ceti = Ca + iti = such Catu means 'four' and catudhaa means 'four folds'. Marana means 'death' and uppatti means 'arising'. Maranuppatti means 'arising of death' or 'occurrence of death'. There are 4 kinds of death. They are 1) aayukkhayena or using-up / expiration of lifespan 2) kammakkhayena or using-up of kamma that allows a limited stay 3) ubhayakkhayena or using-up of both lifespan and kamma 4) upacchedaka or cutting up of life while both lifespan and kamma are still there. People or beings are all subjected to death. Regarding death, there are 4 kinds which cause death of beings. The first kind of death is that all beings have to die when the lifespan of their species ends. This is almost always explained with a simile of oil-lighting. In a small earthern cup, tripod wisp of cotton is placed and then the cup is filled with oil. The cotton wisp is soaked with oil starts from their pods or feet and the oil ascend up the stem and to the top. The top part is then lighted with a fire and there is oil-lit fire. If the wisp is burnt, there will be no more fire. This is compared with aayukkhayena. When there is no more lifespan, beings cannot live any more. Example is we are in the era where the lifespan hardly exceeds beyond 120 years. Most die between 70 years to 90 years. This is aayukkhayena or expiration of lifespan. The second kind of death is kammakkhayena or expiration of kamma. Even though natural lifespan is 100 years in human being todays, some human beings just have 20 years to live as their kamma just allows for 20 years. In that case, they cannot live longer than their kamma admit them to stay. This is compared with oil in the oil-lit fire. When there is no more oil, the fire begins to cease firing or lighting. The third kind of death is ubhayakkhayena or expiration of both lifespan and kamma. This is like someone who no more has kamma to live beyond at some point say about 80 years, where 80 years is the maximal limit for natural living in that being. But when there is still kamma and lifespan is physically supported by sophisticated advanced technology, beings may stay beyond natural lifespan. Ubhayakkhayena is expiration of both lifespan and kamma and cause death. There is a kind of kamma causing death unexpectedly. This unexpectedness is really unbelievable. Example is someone does have enough kamma to live in a current life for 80 years is he is still 10 years in his current life. Kamma is left enough for him to live long. As life span is also 80 years and he is still 10 years, lifespan also allows him to stay longer in his current life. In that case, if he dies suddenly, this death is caused by 'upacchedaka kamma' and maranuppatti is upacchedaka maranuppatti. This is compared with extinguishment of oil-lit fire by strong wind while there are both enough cotton wisp and enough oil to still light on. If there is inevitable death coming, there always is a race. This is the race of kamma. And this race cause arising of different cittas in a given being who is just going to die soon. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44126 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 8:36am Subject: Dhamma Thread (308) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When dying, there always is a race. That is a race of kamma. This kamma race manifests as different vithi vara and finally one of these kamma wins the race and that kamma becomes manifests as 'marana-asanna-javana vithi'. At any stage, anyone is encouraged to ask anything whether Pali words or contents or explanations on Dhamma Thread. This comprises all old posts on Dhamma Thread, and current Dhamma Threads. ''Tathaa ca marantaanam pana marana kaale yathaa raham abhimukhiibhuutam bhavantare patisandhi janakam kammam vaa, tam kammam karana kaale ruupaadikamupaladdha pubbamupakarana bhuutanca kamma nimittam vaa, anantara muppajjamaana bhave upalabhitabba mupabhogabhuutanca gati nimittam vaa, Kammabalena channam dvaaraanam annatara sami.m paccupatthaati.'' Tato param tameva tatopatthitam aarammanam aarabbha vipaccamaanaka kammaanuruupam parisuddham, upakkilittham vaa upalabhitabbabhavaa nuruupam tatthonatamva citta santaanam abhinhnam pavattati bahullena. Tameva vaa pana janaka bhuutam kammam abhinavakarana vasena dvarapattam hoti. When one of 4 causes of death causes death to a being, there always is a race of kamma. This racing manifests as citta vithi and these vithi finally lead to marana-asanna vithi. In vithi portion, all vithi varas have been explained. This vithi vara is not a new. But it has different name as this arises near death. And this vithi vara is called marana-asanna-javana vithi vara. They may be just kamavacara panca-dvara-vithi vara or kamavacara manodvara-vithi vara or rarely and very very rarely this vithi vara may be appana vithi vara, which is not samapatti but as marana-asanna appana vithi. Marantaanam pana marana kaale; When dying while at the time of near death, Yatha raham; as if Abhimukkhiibhuutam; very clearly arises in front of one. Abhi means 'extreme' 'clearly' 'greatly' and mukha means 'mouth'. Abhimukhii means 'in front of mouth' or 'in front of nose or eyes' or 'right in front of one as a clear picture'. Bhuutam means 'arise in a clear form'. Bhavantare here means 'flowing bhavanga cittas'. Patisandhi janaka kamma means 'rebirth causing kamma'. This means 'when dying bhavanga cittas stop and kamma which has the power of giving rise to patisandhi or rebirth comes out in front of dying being as a clear picture. As there are many kamma in the past, there is a race. When one kamma succeeds, it arises and behave particularly as if it happens right now. 'Tam kamma karana kaale; Tam means 'that' and tam kamma means 'that wining kamma'. Karana means 'commit' and kaale means 'the time'. Tam kamma karana kaale means 'when that kamma was being committed,..' Ruupaadi kammupaladdha is made up of 'rupa + adi + kamma + upa + laddha' Rupa here means 'materials used when that kamma is committed'. Upaladdha means 'bearing'. Ruupadikammupaladdha are 'robe, food, monastry, utensil etc or monks or animals or human beings being killed. Pubba mupakarana bhuutanca kamma nimittam vaa, Pubba means 'before'. Upakarana (pubba upakarana becomes 'pubba mupakarana in Pali grammar') are like 'flowers' 'white umbrellas' 'knives' 'spears' 'guns'. Both beings (sattas) being offered or being killed and things involved in offering or killing are known as 'kamma nimitta'. Anatara here means 'immediate next life, which does not have any antara or spacing or interval'. Upajja means 'arise' and upajjamaana means 'going to arise'. Bhave here means 'next life'. Upalabhi means 'attain' and upabhoga means 'utilization'. Gati means 'to go' and here it means 'next life, which is to go to'. This passage means 'when dying there arise object, which may be attainment of next life or 'utilization of next life properties' and these objects are known as gati-nimitta. So when dying, there arises a kamma. This kamma wins other kamma while in the race and comes out as a clear object. Or When dying, there arises an object, which is kamma-nimitta, which again are beings(satta) offered/ beings(satta) killed or things involved in offering / killing. Or When dying, there arises an object, which is gati-nimitta, which again are beings (sattas) to be seen in next life or materials or properties that are of next life. So when dying one of these 3 things arises. Three things are 1. kamma 2. kamma-nimitta 3. gati-nimitta May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44127 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 8:47am Subject: Dhamma Thread (309) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When dying one of these 3 things arises. Three things are 1. kamma 2. kamma-nimitta 3. gati-nimitta When kamma arises, it appears very clearly in the mind as if that past kamma is being committed at the time of dying currently. Example is killing a man with great hatred. This killing may be long long time ago. But when the killer is dying, he clear see in his mind that he is very angry and with that anger he kill his enemy. At the time of his dying, he is not killing any being. But this is old kamma and it appears at manodvara and the kamma arises as if anew. If the kamma is good kamma like offering food to monks or The Buddha, the mind at the time of near dying becomes very clean, light, flexible, happy and this kamma arises at manodvara as if anew. This kamma wins in the race and all other kamma are defeated. There are many many kamma even in a life. Samsarawise, there are countless kamma. When kamma that can give rise to rebirth did not exist apparently in the current life, other kamma in the past lives come out anew and it will give rise to patisandhi. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44128 From: Matthew Miller Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 8:50am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Jon: > The presently arising phenomena do not include a 'brain'. > The existence of a brain at this moment can only be inferred. > It is not part of the 'world' that appears and can be verified > by direct experience. "Direct experience" is only a small part of the tools that we have for understanding reality, and it is demonstrably unreliable by itself. For example, it fails to account for many areas of reality which we cannot directly perceive (e.g. chemical reactions, cellular physiology, galaxy formation) but which we can still infer from evidence and predict with great accuracy. There are criteria for determining reality which are just as valid as (and ultimately more reliable than) direct experience, such as predictability, reproducibility, usability. I'm not sure if you are claiming that the only verifiable reality is that which we directly experience. If so, I disagree. To claim that areas of reality do not exist simply because we cannot verify them by "direct experience" is like an infant who thinks that his Mommy ceases to exist as soon as she leaves the room. Our ability to recognize that objects have a constant existence beyond our perception was a powerful developmental milestone of early childhood. If one were to pursue this idea of "direct experience" as being the only verifiable world, it would lead to solipsism -- e.g. "Since I cannot directly experience other people's minds, how can I be sure that they are not mindless robots?" or "How can I be sure that I am not the only consciousness in the universe?" > > Could you give me an example of a "phenomenon" > > which has no component > > parts? > > Some examples are: seeing consciousness, the object > experienced by seeing consciousness, hearing consciousness, > the object experienced by hearing > consciousness, hardness, attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa). > All of these things are the products of complex physical and chemical processes. Most of these processes occur below the threshold of our awareness, and for good reason -- the consciousness only receives a filtered version of reality with the emphasis on those aspects which are immediately useful. Think of a king sitting in his throne room, receiving edited reports from his ministers about the state of the kingdom. The king would be foolish to suppose that the reality of his kingdom consisted only of the "direct experience" of these reports. But let me turn this around a bit, because I do not believe that the Buddha merely taught "seeing realities as they arise in direct experience." He also taught all kinds of metaphysics. Take karma, for example. Has anyone on this list had a "direct experience" of karma? Matthew 44129 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 8:56am Subject: Re: Vipassana & Mahasatipatthana Sutta htootintnaing The Buddha continued: 4.'Passambhayam kaaya sankhaaram assasissaamii' to sikkhati, 'passambhayam kaaya sankhaaram passasissaamii' ti sikkhati.' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- There is no word for 'relax' or 'let it go'. But the breathing must not be harsh or subtle and anything under control. That is it must be natural. It is 'passambhayam kaaya sankharam'. The Buddha did not say to relax. But just breahte naturally and to be aware the whole action of breathing. Not the whole physical body of head to toe. This is aanaapaana pabba. If scientists could invent a new device that can detect the sound and voice that happened 2700 years ago, then the device would detect these words came out from The Buddha mouth. May you all benefit from The Buddha's genuine words. With unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44130 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 0:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" > wrote: > > Ken, > > > > I > > > > http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/thejhanas.pdf > > > > Kind Regards, > > > > Evan > >======== . _________ Dear Evan, I should have made it clear I was only referring to the point Ken and you were discussing about the Buddha"s prior teachers having jhana, not to the rest of the article. robertk 44131 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 1:00pm Subject: Re: Musings3 - Recollection of Death and other special reflections kelvin_lwin Hi Sarah, So does this mean we should ignore Chapter III to IX of Visuddhimagga? - kel > I mentioned that `we also discussed how samatha (calm) cannot be developed > by paying special attention to particular objects'. We were reminded that > there is no need for any particular reflections, such as reflections on > the Buddha's virtues or recollections on death, for example. 44132 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 1:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H kelvin_lwin Hi Sarah, > S: I didn't notice the typo, but wasn't sure that it was correct to > suggest those with two roots could develop satipatthana. It's a bit of a > sensitive one as I know someone else (maybe Kel) has suggested that those > with two roots can attain to the highest insights, but not become > sotapannas. This was contrary to my understanding, so I asked for a > reference which I'm patiently waiting for:-). Kel: As far as I recalled, you got references about Buddhas and Great Disciples. And we had this lengthy discussion about gotrabhu and anuloma nanas. When it came to dvihetuka we both admitted lack of references (with :P). I checked my position with Burmese monks and they agreed but I didn't ask them to give exact references since I thought it was done. We don't have class this saturday cause of early Burmese New Year festival on sunday. People are busy cooking. So I might bug my teacher tonight to see if he can find references since he should be free. - kel 44133 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 4:51pm Subject: Re:thinking processes. gazita2002 Dear Rob and Tep, I'm on holidays, away from home, on a tropical island - literally. Therefore, haven't really been keeping up with this thread {too busy doing nothing :-)}. My comment to Rob was something like: makes it sound easy, doesn't it? One would get the idea that it does not matter how one behaves, freedom from clinging is still possible. However, Santati must have developed wisdom in many previous lives, to be able to attain arahatship after hearing these words from the Buddha. We must remember too, that it is the Buddha who spoke these words, the most enlightened being of all times. A timely reminder, Rob, - this life is only a tiny moment in samsara....in future lives. May all beings be happy, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > Dear RobertK (and Azita) - > > > > The drunken Santati's attainment of Arahantship in such a short > period > > of time was a huge step change - an incredible transformation. > Wasn't > > it an unusual case, Rob? I think Santati must have no other faults > > beside the drinking and clinging to sensuality. > > > > How would you explain this incredible story? > > > > > > --------------- > Dear tep, > not so incredible I think. He had developed the right path for > aeons, it was time. > The commentary to this sutta notes that the alcohol in his blood was > burned away as insight grew. > This life is only a tiny moment in samsara and so we need to strive > to find the right way, if we make efforts in the wrong path it will > only prolong samsara and lead to more wrong effort in future lives. > Robertk 44134 From: "budnewsweb" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 10:16am Subject: Oh! Relly! Many People Know Aphidham?(Thaiman Who Have Bad Eng) budnewsweb So happy to discover this group. A little people will learn Aphidham . Sommanus peeti gusol I feel that. very nicwe to meet you to all. Sory my eng so bad. 44135 From: "Carl" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 5:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 c7carl Hi Sarah and Andrew Sarah wrote: .......big snips)...... > S: When it's something `we must deliberately do', it's not understanding > in daily life. Did you read the discussion between Ken H and Htoo on this > topic? It was very good...(snip)....(Sarah) Carl writes: Hi Sarah, I think you liked Ken H's response very much. But perhaps you should reconsider what Htoo said (or didn't say). Htoo remains apart from the notion that formal meditation is a waste of time (my words). I believe that Htoo is still pondering your viewpoint on Vipassana. The discussion was not concluded and the two views of Vipassana "meditation" exist louder than ever. As Andrew, I also wonder how these two views can be resolved. My view is as Andrew's with the addition that vipassana is also a 24 hour 7 days a week effort. I am totaly confused! I am very troubled because these two views have aroused doubts about vipassana. How can one notion be right and the other wrong? Htoo's position (as I see it) seems remarkably in contrast to the standard DSG position of the staunch Abhidhammists here. Can there be any doubt that Htoo is an Abhidamma expert? Sarah, I dont know if this fits in anywhere in this discussion, but I am wondering about the terms "prompted and unprompted" Is this the definition of prompted? "sansankharika [sasa'nkhaarika] induced, instigated, either by oneself or someone else." Thanks, Carl 44136 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 5:48pm Subject: Re: Oh! Relly! Many People Know Aphidham?(Thaiman Who Have Bad Eng) buddhistmeditat... Hi Thaiman - I am glad that you are happy to join us. It is not just you who have bad English; my writing also needs polishing. Don't worry, keep writing and these smart people here will adapt. Please be welcome! Warm regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "budnewsweb" wrote: > > > So happy to discover this group. > > A little people will learn Aphidham . > > Sommanus peeti gusol I feel that. > > very nicwe to meet you to all. > > Sory my eng so bad. 44137 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 6:10pm Subject: Re:thinking processes. buddhistmeditat... Dear RobertK and Azita - Rob said it so neatly : "This life is only a tiny moment in samsara and so we need to strive to find the right way, if we make efforts in the wrong path it will only prolong samsara and lead to more wrong effort in future lives". To me making efforts in the wrong path(s) has not been a problem. The difficulty is with consistently making right effort in the right path: it is not easy because there are other Path factors that we have to condition at the same time, such that the five indriyas are in good balance. Azita, did you immediately start to pack and fly back home, after receiving the "timely reminder" from Rob? Regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Dear Rob and Tep, > > I'm on holidays, away from home, on a tropical island - > literally. Therefore, haven't really been keeping up with this > thread {too busy doing nothing :-)}. > > My comment to Rob was something like: > makes it sound easy, doesn't it? One would get the idea that it > does not matter how one behaves, freedom from clinging is still > possible. > However, Santati must have developed wisdom in many previous > lives, to be able to attain arahatship after hearing these words > from the Buddha. We must remember too, that it is the Buddha who > spoke these words, the most enlightened being of all times. > > A timely reminder, Rob, - this life is only a tiny moment in > samsara....in future lives. > > May all beings be happy, > Azita. > > 44138 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 6:38pm Subject: Re: Oh! Relly! Many People Know Aphidham?(Thaiman Who Have Bad Eng) christine_forsy... "budnewsweb" Sawatdee Kaa, dii chan chue Christine kaa. khun chue arai? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "budnewsweb" wrote: > > > So happy to discover this group. > > A little people will learn Aphidham . > > Sommanus peeti gusol I feel that. > > very nicwe to meet you to all. > > Sory my eng so bad. my ben rai :-) Welcome to dhamma study group. Thank you for writing :-) metta, Chris 44139 From: "cosmique1000" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 9:17pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma cosmique1000 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Miller wrote: >To claim that areas of reality do not exist simply because we cannot verify them by > "direct experience" is like an infant who thinks that his Mommy> ceases to exist as soon as she leaves the room. Our ability to > recognize that objects have a constant existence beyond our > perception was a powerful developmental milestone of early childhood. > But let me turn this around a bit, because I do not believe that the > Buddha merely taught "seeing realities as they arise in direct > experience." He also taught all kinds of metaphysics. Take karma, > for example. Hello Matthew and all, I hope you don't mind my butting in for a while. I think "direct experience" means "seeing how things are" rather than just "seeing whether things are or not, or whether they arise or not". For an "unenlightened child" his mommy exists when she is perceived by him and does not exist when she is not, but for an "enlightened child", whether his mommy is perceived or not, she is anicca (impermanent), dukkha (suffering), and anatta (not his mommy at all!). Adopting such an approach helps one to avoid a great deal of pointless metaphysical speculation about existence of this or that such as god, soul, aliens etc. It does not matter at all whether they all exist or not. What matters is that they all have the above three characteristics. Metta, Cosmique 44140 From: "budnewsweb" Date: Fri Apr 8, 2005 8:42pm Subject: Re: Oh! Relly! Many People Know Aphidham?(Thaiman Who Have Bad Eng) budnewsweb My name is "Bundit" krub . you can call me "Bandit" .I'm very happy to join this group because so hard to meet people who know aphidhamma. Many people take effect of dhamma that "Ariya People" can do. Bud thay resist because of effect. What is the because of effect? Pariyut Patibut and must be on step. Can't skip it . In thailand Have alittle bit people to know this. Even somepeople who know Aphidhamma But not all over and don't to be faithful with themself .They exaggerated themself with wrong dhamma. nice to meet you and nice to join this group so much. (If you can speak thai tell me please . My eng very bad) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > "budnewsweb" Sawatdee Kaa, > > dii chan chue Christine kaa. khun chue arai? > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "budnewsweb" > wrote: > > > > > > So happy to discover this group. > > > > A little people will learn Aphidham . > > > > Sommanus peeti gusol I feel that. > > > > very nicwe to meet you to all. > > > > Sory my eng so bad. > > my ben rai :-) > > Welcome to dhamma study group. Thank you for writing :-) > > metta, > Chris 44141 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 0:11am Subject: Re: New view on satipatthana 1 buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: > > Hi Sarah and Andrew > > > Sarah wrote: .......big snips)...... > > S: When it's something `we must deliberately do', > it's not > understanding > > in daily life. Did you read the discussion between Ken H and Htoo > on this > > topic? It was very good...(snip)....(Sarah) > > Carl writes: > Hi Sarah, > I think you liked Ken H's response very much. But perhaps you should > reconsider what Htoo said (or didn't say). Htoo remains apart from > the notion that formal meditation is a waste of time (my words). I > believe that Htoo is still pondering your viewpoint on Vipassana. The > discussion was not concluded and the two views of > Vipassana "meditation" exist louder than ever. As Andrew, I also > wonder how these two views can be resolved. > > My view is as Andrew's with the addition that vipassana is also a 24 > hour 7 days a week effort. > > I am totaly confused! I am very troubled because these two views have > aroused doubts about vipassana. How can one notion be right and the > other wrong? Htoo's position (as I see it) seems remarkably in > contrast to the standard DSG position of the staunch Abhidhammists > here. Can there be any doubt that Htoo is an Abhidamma expert? Hi Carl (and Sarah), I really like the points you raise and the manner in which you raise them. It cannot be denied that Htoo is EXTREMELY knowledgeable about the Abhidhamma, almost nauseatingly so ;-)), and yet he doesn't agree with the K. Sujin faction here about crucial issues related to practice. Sarah can cheer on anyone who chooses to tassel with him, but the intelligent members (like you) will see right through that type of politicking. However, one minor point, just to let you know I am paying attention, you write, "My view is as Andrew's with the addition that vipassana is also a 24 hour 7 days a week effort." The Buddha taught that vipassana can only be practiced during waking hours, not while asleep, so it couldn't be 24/7. However, I agree with you that it should occupy as much of the waking hours as possible (with reinforcement through yogic meditation- sitting, walking, standing, or lying). Metta, James 44142 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 0:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Spoke with Bhikkhu Bodhi last night Re: insight knowledges jonoabb Hi Andrew Thanks for the detailed reply which, as with all your posts, is full of meaty stuff. I will respond on some of the points raised. Andrew Levin wrote: >... With the exception >of what I've been discussing about the nature of mundane right view, >and understanding dhammas as they are present to understand kamma and >vipaka (if this type of understanding is indeed necessary for right >view, which I glean from his talk that I might), there aren't any >questions I have pertaining to Abhidhamma that I could ask, nothing >I've been trying to figure out or anything, frankly because I think >there are things we can do, as practitioners, to cultivate the >factors of the path, actively working as a person, be we made up of >namas or rupas or not, to attain stages of enlightenment. > Well I was actually thinking of questions relating to 'practice', and in particular to what is the 'practice' at the present moment when there is no opportunity for the kind of 'purposeful action' you mention below. These 'ordinary' moments are the major part of the day for us. Do you see the teachings as addressing this issue? I'm not sure what BB's answer would be, but I don't see him as someone who takes the view ' the more formal practice the better'. >This is a >point you may see in my discussions with Sarah (the thread "new view >on satipatthana"). This has been brought up by people here other >than myself, including someone raising the point that the Buddha told >some of his order "That's how you should train yourselves." For me, >this is not a new spec of information that might change the way I >look at things, it is something extra that shows what I believe >*lots* of scripture references- purposeful action. This includes the >gradual training, the sutta on mindfulness of the body, the (Maha-) >Satipatthana sutta, the Potthapada sutta, and more I could cite. The >Buddha gives instructions to them all on how to practise. It's clear >as day. > I think if you read the suttas themselves carefully and with the help of the commentaries you'll find that they are not so much instructions to undertake purposeful action, but more like descriptions of what cause brings what result. The problem is that most people rely on brief quotes they come across in books, which of course sound convincing enough in the context, but are not the full story. Not so long ago I had a discussion with Howard on passages that mention 'how you should train yourselves'. None of the examples raised by Howard were specific actions to be done, as far as I could tell, but you may have some different passages in mind. >And he declared very many of his order (if not all) and very >man of his lay followers to have reached enlightenment during his >ministry. That's why I don't see eye to eye with people here, where >it seems one is encouraged to practise only a few nama or rupa on >occasion, and to acheive enlightenment in scores, hundreds, or eons >of lives and years away. > > There may be some misunderstanding of what has been said on this subject. As I understand the teachings, *any* presently appearing dhamma is potentially the object of awareness/iinsight, and that awareness/insight may arise at any time. The scope for 'practise' is not limited to a chosen time, situation and/or object, and thus is wider (not narrower) than suggested by those who advocate purposeful action of some kind. >With all the enlightened ones in this >dispensation, who's to say we don't have the same chance? We may not >all have sufficient meritorious deeds in our past to acheive in this >lifetime, but we all still have a reasonable chance of acheiving it >within this dispensation if we practise well in this and future >lifetimes. > > I think this is something we can't know and don't need to spend time speculating about. >Well the book gave pretty specific instructions and referred to >specific passages in other words about how to practise right >mindfulness. I quote from B.B.'s "Noble Eightfold Path": > > > >>>>The fourth step, "calming the bodily function," involves a >>>> >>>> >progressive quieting down of the breath and its associated bodily >functions until they become extremely fine and subtle. Beyond these >four basic steps lie more advanced practices which direct mindfulness >of breathing towards deep concentration and insight. <<< > >This is in accord with my understanding and the content a few other >books I have read (and many I have not) where mindfulness of >breathing is the chief 'producer' or 'bringer' or insight. > >He says it right there. > > This is a crucial point. I would not read the quoted passage from BB as saying that 'mindfulness of breathing is the chief 'producer' or 'bringer' or insight'. However, if this is your view, could you give a sutta reference that supports it? What do you see as being the significance of breath in particular, as opposed to other samatha subjects? The rest of your post deals in detail with mindfulness of breathing. If you don't mind, I'll snip here and respond to that separately. Jon 44143 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 0:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H jonoabb Hi Evan Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: >As I see it though, it's ok for us to theorise and draw conclusions from >suttas, abbhidamma and commentaries but when a bikkhu speaks from >experience, one has to listen and re-evaluate ones position. > > I think the advice in the Kalama Sutta applies whether the statement in question comes from a bhikkhu or from a lay person (and I think extra caution is called for where the speaker holds himself out as having attainments). Everything we hear should be tested against the original teachings. BTW, I do not think the texts are to be used for theorising, but for gaining a theoretical understanding (if you see the difference), as a basis for a more direct understanding. Jon 44144 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma jonoabb Hi Geoff I notice that Htoo is going to respond on this, and I'm sure he will do so in detail. I'd just like to comment briefly on the implicit assumption (as I see it) in your question that in the various bhumis only cittas of that particular bhumi can arise. As I understand it, this is not the case; bhumis are named as they are because most of the cittas that arise in the bhumi are of that same variety. Hope this clarifies somewhat. Jon sunnaloka wrote: >Hi everyone, > >According to the Pitaka is jhanacitta as rupavacara kusala citta and >rupavacara kiriya citta attainable in kamavacara bhumi? > >I'm still wondering why post canonical commentators state that >jhanacitta cannot have sensory form as object ... what the canonical >precident for this understanding would be??? > >As always any help is greatly appreciated, > >Geoff > > 44145 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 0:50am Subject: Re: A Question Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 jonoabb Hi Charles Charles DaCosta wrote: >The Idea of 'transforming a samsaric experience into an enlightening one' is a Mahayana concept. And, from a Therevadin prospective, it is based on something call the Radiant Wheel of Dependant Origination. > >I am sorry to say I can't remember the suttra references, but hopefully I will be vesting a Tai (Forest monk tradition) center in a few weeks, so I intend on getting the book on DO that talks about the Radiant Wheel. > > I would think that only at moments of satipatthana and/or insight can there be a 'transforming' of the mundane, and then only in a figurative sense. >Samatha/jhana is not a natural state, you work at creating and preserving it. If you have to work at keeping the state, you are clinging to it (Mahayanist like to call this transformed clinging). The analogy of the monkey mind is more natural. > >I am defining clinging very broadly, "to resist separation from, or the changing of." > > I agree that samatha gained can be lost unless the right conditions are there. I would think we have all gained and lost jhana in the past. Jon 44146 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 1:11am Subject: Re: Oh! Relly! Many People Know Aphidham?(Thaiman Who Have Bad Eng) christine_forsy... Hello Bandit, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "budnewsweb" wrote: > > > My name is "Bundit" krub . you can call me "Bandit" .I'm very happy > to join this group because so hard to meet people who know aphidhamma. > > Many people take effect of dhamma that "Ariya People" can do. > > Bud thay resist because of effect. > > What is the because of effect? > > Pariyut Patibut > > and must be on step. > > Can't skip it . > > In thailand Have alittle bit people to know this. > > Even somepeople who know Aphidhamma But not all over and don't to be > faithful with themself .They exaggerated themself with wrong dhamma. > > nice to meet you and nice to join this group so much. > > (If you can speak thai tell me please . My eng very bad) mai dai ... nit noi ... di-chun yak rian pa sa thai. Some people on this List speak Thai. They are: Jon, Mom Betty, Sukin, Azita, RobK, Matt R, Num, Kom and others. I hope they will write and introduce themselves. Please see: http://www.dhammahome.com/index.php?lang=0 metta, Chris 44147 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma jonoabb Hi Matthew Matthew Miller wrote: >"Direct experience" is only a small part of the tools that we have >for understanding reality, and it is demonstrably unreliable by >itself. For example, it fails to account for many areas of reality >which we cannot directly perceive (e.g. chemical reactions, cellular >physiology, galaxy formation) but which we can still infer from >evidence and predict with great accuracy. > > I suspect we are working from different definitions of 'reality'. What's yours? >There are criteria for determining reality which are just as valid as >(and ultimately more reliable than) direct experience, such as >predictability, reproducibility, usability. > > I am not knocking scientific research, but I think it cannot measure the dhammas of which the Buddha spoke. >I'm not sure if you are claiming that the only verifiable reality is >that which we directly experience. > No, I'm not claiming that. I'm saying that only a presently appearing dhamma can be directly experienced as it truly is. >>>Could you give me an example of a "phenomenon" >>>which has no component >>>parts? >>> >>> >>Some examples are: seeing consciousness, the object >>experienced by seeing consciousness, hearing consciousness, >>the object experienced by hearing >>consciousness, hardness, attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa). >> >> > >All of these things are the products of complex physical and chemical >processes. Most of these processes occur below the threshold of our >awareness, and for good reason -- the consciousness only receives a >filtered version of reality with the emphasis on those aspects which >are immediately useful. Think of a king sitting in his throne room, >receiving edited reports from his ministers about the state of the >kingdom. The king would be foolish to suppose that the reality of >his kingdom consisted only of the "direct experience" of these >reports. > > Good analogy, but not applicable to the moment of pure sense-door experience that precedes the thinking processes which constitute the filtering you refer to. >But let me turn this around a bit, because I do not believe that the >Buddha merely taught "seeing realities as they arise in direct >experience." He also taught all kinds of metaphysics. Take karma, >for example. > >Has anyone on this list had a "direct experience" of karma? > > As one of the 24 conditioning factors that pertain between dhammas, kamma is capable of being directly experienced by insight (but I think we can safely say it would require a level of developed insight that is beyond anyone on this list ;-)) Jon 44148 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 2:25am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 161- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (k) sarahprocterabb... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] Viriya accompanies every kusala citta and it supports the citta and accompanying cetasikas so that they can carry out their work in a wholesome way. When there is loving kindness, it is strengthened and supported by kusala viriya. If there were no viriya accompanying the kusala citta, no kusala could be performed. Also when the citta is akusala citta, viriya accompanies the citta and the cetasikas so that they can carry out their work in the unwholesome way. Viriya accompanies every akusala citta. When there is anger, dosa, it is strengthened and supported by viriya. Viriya which accompanies akusala citta is wrong effort and viriya which accompanies kusala citta is right effort. ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44149 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 4:02am Subject: Re: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi KenH (& Evan), > > ... > S: I didn't notice the typo, but wasn't sure that it was correct to > suggest those with two roots could develop satipatthana. KH: Thanks Sarah, I'll spot the typos if you'll continue to spot the factual errors (brainos?). It is extremely important that someone points out inconsistencies with the texts. Otherwise DSG would follow other groups into a maze of directionless waffling. S: > In any case, it's not an important point and easily leads to speculations > about things we can have no idea about:-/. KH: I'm sure that's right, and entirely consistent with the texts. Ken H 44150 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 4:12am Subject: Re: About rafts (Was: [dsg] Having no opinions jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Joop (& James), ..... Dear Sarah S: If by 'RIGHT VIEWS' you are referring to samma ditthi or panna, then the Buddha had right views most the time and it is this same samma ditthi or panna that needs to be cultivated as I read the texts. Joop: A view only exists in terms of concepts, of words. A right view is a view and I try to avoid to have one, that's the way I want to use the texts. So rests the wisdom (panna), I accept that as something I want to have; but WISDOM IS WITHOUT WORDS, WITHOUT CONCEPTS, and can only be approached, never be touched in any text. S: When we read about the raft simile, it is the attachment to such views that needs to be discarded. Attachment is the 2nd Noble Truth - the cause of Suffering. (see 'Raft' in U.P. if you have time). Joop: I know that's about clinging, about attachment. So what do you want to state? I only found one message in UP about 'Raft', your #24878 and that has hardly to do with our topic: "Can we leave all the Teachings - as a raft - behind us?" This has (for me) to do with a topic I raised some weeks ago about 'Skilful means' (43903). My hypothesis was that the word 'skilful means' in hardly used in Theravada as in Mahayana but that also according Theravada the Buddha used this pedagogical technique. A 'raft' is (to me) an example of a 'skilful means': who is more wise can leave a big part of the literal interpretation of the Tipitaka as a raft, as something that was useful so should not be dealed with disdain, and can be left behind on the further buddhistic path. But again: we can only discuss fruitful about this topic if you want to use a frame of reference broader than that of one Theravada- tradition. S: This is not how I understand the teachings or the effect of insight-meditation (vipassana bhavana). By clearly understanding dhammas, the objects of satipatthana, then samma ditthi or sampajanna (clear comprehension) grows and becomes firmer and firmer so that stages of insight and eventually stages of enlightenment can be attained with samma ditthi. Joop: This makes our 'discussion' really funny: you say that I should read in the teachings what I experience in my (insight-)meditation. I use the word 'discussion' but in fact it's hardly a communication because we write out of different frames of reference, as I said in my neglected proposal to the moderators (but in this case it's not a big problems, your narrowmindedness only helps me formulating what's important for me and what is my path). Metta Joop 44151 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 4:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Geoff > > I notice that Htoo is going to respond on this, and I'm sure he will do > so in detail. I'd just like to comment briefly on the implicit > assumption (as I see it) in your question that in the various bhumis > only cittas of that particular bhumi can arise. As I understand it, > this is not the case; bhumis are named as they are because most of the > cittas that arise in the bhumi are of that same variety. > > Hope this clarifies somewhat. > > Jon > > sunnaloka wrote: > > >Hi everyone, > > > >According to the Pitaka is jhanacitta as rupavacara kusala citta and > >rupavacara kiriya citta attainable in kamavacara bhumi? > > > >I'm still wondering why post canonical commentators state that > >jhanacitta cannot have sensory form as object ... what the canonical > >precident for this understanding would be??? > > > >As always any help is greatly appreciated, > > > >Geoff ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Geoff and All, Thanks Jon for reminder. As Jon said, it is not the case that kamavacara cittas are just confined to kama bhumi. Kamavacara cittas do arise in brahmas. When they came down to The Buddha and saw The Buddha, they did have cakkhuvinnana cittas and kama javana of seeing The Buddha. There are 4 planes of citta. This is not bhumi. 4 planes of citta are 1. kamavacara citta 2. rupavacara citta 3. arupavacara citta 4. lokuttara citta As lokuttara cittas are beyond loka (kama loka, rupa loka, arupa loka), the object of lokuttara citta is not of kama object, rupa object, and arupa object. The only object for lokuttara citta is nibbana. Arupavacara cittas take the object of arupa jhanas. So kama object can never be the object of arupa jhana cittas and arupavacara cittas. Likewise, rupavacara cittas take the object of pannatti and no other object can be the object of rupavacara citta. The only object is pannatti. It is patibhaga nimitta pannatta in case where jhana takes patibhaga nimitta. Where jhana does not take patibhaga nimitta pannatta, it will take satta pannatta as in case of brahmavihara kammatthana. Kamavacara cittas are mostly taking kama object. They can take pannatti but not in the form as in case of rupa jhana cittas. Kamavacara cittas can take the essence of nibbana or the meaning of nibbana but not the true nibbana. This only happen at the magga kaala when all 8 Path factors are fully (FULLY) developed. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44152 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 4:53am Subject: Dhamma Thread (310) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, To repeat, at the time of near death, there always is a race. In that race, the participants are kamma. Kamma are the past actions which had been committed in the current life or may be even in other previous lives. How do they arise? What are they? Are they realities? I think, once someone has asked on this topic. The current posts are not on kamma but on dying process and how beings die and are reborn in the next life without any interruption of moment of time. Whatever kamma succeeds, there are 3 possibilities for cittas near death. The possibilities here is for the object. There are 3 possible objects. They are 1. kamma 2. kamma nimitta 3. gati nimitta May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44153 From: "budnewsweb" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 4:53am Subject: Re: Oh! Relly! ...Thank You Chris. budnewsweb > > mai dai ... nit noi ... di-chun yak rian pa sa thai. > > Some people on this List speak Thai. They are: Jon, Mom Betty, > Sukin, Azita, RobK, Matt R, Num, Kom and others. I hope they will > write and introduce themselves. > > Please see: > http://www.dhammahome.com/index.php?lang=0 > > metta, > Chris thank you to all. and your matta ,too. 44154 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 6:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 sarahprocterabb... Hi Carl, I like all your well-considered reflections and sincere interest. I don’t have much time now after a busy work day, but wish to just get back to your post. --- Carl wrote: <...> >. The > discussion was not concluded and the two views of > Vipassana "meditation" exist louder than ever. As Andrew, I also > wonder how these two views can be resolved. > > My view is as Andrew's with the addition that vipassana is also a 24 > hour 7 days a week effort. > > I am totaly confused! I am very troubled because these two views have > aroused doubts about vipassana. .... S: I think that many of us use ‘vipassana’ in different ways. When I use this term, I follow the Pali texts which define it as ‘insight’ or understanding or wisdom. Before we looked at many of the synonyms for these various terms. (See ‘vipassana’ in U.P.). I agree with you (& James) that anytime except for when we're in deep sleep is a suitable time to develop awareness and understanding. I think that if you ask Htoo for definitions of vipassana, there won’t be any disagreement. When it comes to what is meant by meditation and what support there is for commonly held ideas – well that’s just what he and Ken H were discussing, so I’ll leave it there for now. As I said, I think it’s a good discussion – meaning I appreciate the reflections, comments and good-will on both sides. ... >How can one notion be right and the > other wrong? Htoo's position (as I see it) seems remarkably in > contrast to the standard DSG position of the staunch Abhidhammists > here. Can there be any doubt that Htoo is an Abhidamma expert? .... As Htoo knows, I have the highest regard for most of what he writes and there’s no doubt about his great knowledge and familiarity of Abhidhamma texts.I learn a lot from many of his posts and our discussions which are always cordial. Can aspects of the texts be interpreted in different ways? He’ll be the first to agree that this is so and btw, I don’t think anything I express is ‘the standard DSG position’ as represented by anything other than a handful of noisy people, but I understand what you mean:-) I think we need to ask what the Abhidhamma is. As I see it, it’s no different from the Dhamma which is no different from the realities/phenomena/dhammas arising and falling away with their various characteristics at this very moment. Seeing is Abhidhamma, visible object is Abhidhamma, feeling, perception, hardness, softness, all namas and rupas are Abhidhamma. Any direct understanding of them when they are apparent (i.e just at the present moment ever) is vipassana bhavana (mental development/meditation). You may find this article on ‘Abhidhamma and Vipassana’ helpful if you haven’t read it already. There should not be any distinction between the theory and practice as I see it: http://www.abhidhamma.org/sitagu%20sayadaw.htm > Sarah, I dont know if this fits in anywhere in this discussion, but I > am wondering about the terms "prompted and unprompted" > > Is this the definition of prompted? > "sansankharika [sasa'nkhaarika] induced, instigated, either by > oneself or someone else." ... S: I think it’s a bit of a red herring here. These terms refer to strong and weak states of consciousness. For example, when we give, the generosity may be strong and unprompted when the opportunity arises or rather weak, needing some kind of encouragement, urging or further reflecting, for example. (Again, check these in U.P. or ask me more if you like.) I appreciate your input. There are bound to be confusions and doubts and these are temporary mental states, namas, too. I hope this helps and am very happy to continue this discussion about the meaning of vipassana bhavana (development/meditation) if you have any further comments/queeries. Metta, Sarah ======= 44155 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 7:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 kenhowardau Hi Charles, Towards the end of your message, you asked: --------------- > What do you mean by "saddha, vicikiccha, adosa, dosa, and so on?" --------------- I was referring to paramattha dhammas (absolute realities), which I have been talking about throughout our discussion. If you study the Abhidhamma, you will find that it defines all of the things that really exist. At any point in time, including now, there are, really, only paramattha dhammas. The reason for studying the Buddha's teaching is to know those dhammas. Returning to the beginning of your message: ------------------------------ C: > Faith is empty (neither wholesome or unwholesome), what you have faith-in can be considered wholesome or unwholesome. ----------------------------- Does what you have said there help us to understand the dhammas that are arising now? When you say "faith," are you referring to a dhamma? If so, which of the dhammas defined in the Abhidhamma is it? ------------------------------------------------ C: > So, is your faith/confidence in the no-self doctrine "blind" or based on what you have experienced as true? ---------------------------------------------- As I have said several times, the paramattha dhamma known as "faith" (or, in Pali, "saddha") is never blind. So, if you want to talk about a moment of consciousness when there is 'blindness to the truth' then there is no point in referring to the paramattha dhamma known as "faith" - because it never arises at such moments. According to the Abhidhamma, 'blindness to knowledge' is the characteristic of the dhamma known as "moha" (ignorance). ------------------------------------------------- C: > > > I don't understand what you are trying to say. .............. KH: > > I was simply trying to say what the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta says: There can't be right understanding of a dhamma when it is conceived with the notion, "This is mine" "This am I" or "This is my self." Do you have a different interpretation? ......................................... C: > If at the moment of conception, with the three (I, my-self, mine), you are place/born in a cycle that leads to suffering, then you are right. However, if it does not place "you" in a cycle that leads to suffering, then you are wrong. Remember the real issues are "desire" and "attachment." Therefore, if you understand how to transform/transmute these two so that you can avoid the cycles of suffering, even when the three (I, my-self, mine) are born, you have the Right Understanding. ------------------------------------------------- Is that your interpretation of the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta (or of any other sutta)? If so, then I would like to discuss it further. Otherwise, I think we should stick to discussing dhammas. ----------------- KH: > > I would suggest that other disciplines (e.g., music, science, sport, religion) could be effectively studied and practised with unwholesome (as well as wholesome) consciousness. > As uninstructed worldlings, we can be pretty sure most of our listening will be for the wrong reasons (including subtle attachment). However, if there is a moment when the Dhamma is heard with non-attachment and non-aversion, then there is kusala consciousness at that one precious moment, and progress towards insight will be made. .............................................. C: > This is also true (90%) for any type of study, science and music included, not just Dharama. I say 90% because if you look at that "insight" as just clear understanding alone then ... Now if that clear understanding is rooted in morality then, you are 100% correct. ------------------- Again, I would prefer we discuss the Dhamma as found in the ancient texts. So, when we refer to "insight" we should be referring to the paramattha dhamma known as "insight" (in Pali, "panna" "samma- ditthi" "vipassana"). Insight is always (100% of the time) rooted in morality. In other words, panna always co-arises with alobha (greedlessness) and adosa (harmlessness). --------------------------------- C: When you say "... doubt (vicikiccha) ... is an unwholesome paramattha dhamma - it can never be a good thing." I am force to say, you are being one dimensional, extreme. You have lost sight of the Middle Path. --------------------------------- No, I am sure the Middle Path is to know the dhammas that are arising now. Vicikiccha is a dhamma that arises in certain kinds of unwholesome consciousness. It doubts the Dhamma (the 4NT's etc.). As Sarah has explained, a poor Pali-to-English translation of the Kalama Sutta has given the impression that vicikiccha can be a good thing (can arise in wholesome consciousness). ------------------------------------------------------ C: > What the [Kalama Sutta] does tell us. If a teaching of any type, including a Buddha's, contradicts what you know to true, value what you know to be true more. ------------------------------------------------------- No, I am sure the Kalama Sutta tells us nothing of the sort. (See the Bhikkhu Bodhi article Christine referred us to.) According to the Abhidhamma, the only time we really "know something to be true" is in a moment of consciousness in which panna has arisen. The Buddha's teaching can never contradict such moments of panna because the Buddha's teaching *is* panna. Ken H 44156 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 8:05am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Jon: > I suspect we are working from different definitions of 'reality'. > What's yours? I'm not so sure if it's wise to work from a pre-conceived definition of 'reality'. So I'll just offer Philip K. Dick's open-ended definition: "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick (American writer, 1928-1982) Matthew Miller 44157 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 8:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Jon and Htoo Naing, Jon, my understanding is exactly what you've stated: > I'd just like to comment briefly on the implicit > assumption (as I see it) in your question that in the various bhumis > only cittas of that particular bhumi can arise. As I understand it, > this is not the case; bhumis are named as they are because most of the > cittas that arise in the bhumi are of that same variety. And as I understand this, there is therefore no direct one to one correlation regarding the relationship of avacara and bhumi. So why would jhanacitta, which is rupavacara, not be able to take as its object a paramattha dhamma (which I assume are 'on' the kamavacara bhumi since vipassana occurs on/in kamavacara bhumi)? My question (to either of you, or anyone else) is: what canonical Tipitaka precedent (i.e. what Tipitaka statement) is there that says jhanacitta cannot take paramattha dhamma as object? This notion is not definitively stated in the Sutta Pitaka as far as I know (it isn't stated in the Patisambhidamagga). So is it stated in the Abhidhamma Pitaka (of which I have no access at present time)? Or is this a post canonical development of the Mahavihara commentators? Htoo, says: > rupavacara cittas take the object of pannatti and no other > object can be the object of rupavacara citta. The only object is > pannatti. Htoo, is this stated in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, or is this a post canonical commentarial development? Metta, Geoff 44158 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 9:13am Subject: Re: New view on satipatthana 1 kelvin_lwin Hi Sarah, Carl, Htoo and James As far as I know Htoo is on solid ground with what most Burmese saydaws teach. > You may find this article on `Abhidhamma and Vipassana' helpful if you > haven't read it already. There should not be any distinction between the > theory and practice as I see it: > http://www.abhidhamma.org/sitagu%20sayadaw.htm Since you mentioned Sitagu sayadaw http://www.sitagu.org/meditation.html - excerpt While there many varieties of meditation practice that fall under both of these two main categories, the varieties that are practiced during group meditation all involve a seated posture. Generally, the meditators at Sitagu Vihara practice meditation on the in & out breathing (anapanasati ). This traditional form of meditation can be used both as a type of concentration meditation and insight meditation. Traditionally, this form of meditation involves sitting in a cross-legged position on the floor with an erect posture and focusing the minds attention on the sensation of the breath as it enters and exits the tip of the nose. Those who are not comfortable sitting on the floor may also practice this type of meditation while seated upright in a chair. http://www.sitagu.org/dhamma/upo_retreat.html I spent three nights there, passing the days in sitting and walking mediation, reading about the Dhamma, and reflecting on the qualities of the Buddha. > > Is this the definition of prompted? > > "sansankharika [sasa'nkhaarika] induced, instigated, either by > > oneself or someone else." > ... > S: I think it's a bit of a red herring here. These terms refer to strong > and weak states of consciousness. Nina posted before of why jhana and lokuttara cittas can't be said to be either prompted or unprompted. Basically because it's unclear which one and could be both or either. - kel 44159 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 10:06am Subject: Re: A Question Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles Hi Jon Charles: The Idea of 'transforming a samsaric experience into an enlightening one' is a Mahayana concept. And, from a Therevadin prospective, it is based on something call the Radiant Wheel of Dependant Origination. I am sorry to say I can't remember the suttra references, but hopefully I will be vesting a Tai (Forest monk tradition) center in a few weeks, so I intend on getting the book on DO that talks about the Radiant Wheel. ------------------------------------------------ Jon Replied: I would think that only at moments of satipatthana and/or insight can there be a 'transforming' of the mundane, and then only in a figurative sense. ........................................................ Yes, especially when there is insight; however I am not sure what you mean by "in a figurative sense." ************************* Charles: Samatha/jhana is not a natural state, you work at creating and preserving it. If you have to work at keeping the state, you are clinging to it (Mahayanist like to call this transformed clinging). The analogy of the monkey mind is more natural. I am defining clinging very broadly, "to resist separation from, or the changing of." -------------------------------------------- Jon: I agree that samatha gained can be lost unless the right conditions are there. I would think we have all gained and lost jhana in the past. .................................. Yes 44160 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 3:20pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sunnaloka" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff wrote: Hi Jon and Htoo Naing, Jon, my understanding is exactly what you've stated: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So Geoff and Jon agreed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff: ..snip.. ..And as I understand this, there is therefore no direct one to one correlation regarding the relationship of avacara and bhumi. So why would jhanacitta, which is rupavacara, not be able to take as its object a paramattha dhamma (which I assume are 'on' the kamavacara bhumi since vipassana occurs on/in kamavacara bhumi)? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 5 Rupavacara rupakusala cittas ( rupa jhanas of non-arahats ) 5 Rupavacara rupakiriya cittas ( rupa jhanas of arahats ) 5 Rupavacara rupavipaka cittas ( bhavanga cittas of rupa brahmas ) There are altogether 15 rupavacara cittas. 10 cittas are rupa jhanas. But they are 5 jhanas. 5 cittas are bhavanga cittas of rupa brahma. They are like shade of rupakusala cittas. So their object are exactly the same as rupakusala cittas. All rupa jhanas take panatti as their object. While rupa jhana cittas are taking panatti as their object, they are taking paramattha as their object. Pannatti does not arise. Panatti does not fall away. Panatti does not have anicca lakkhanaa. Panatti does not have dukkha lakkhanaa. Panatti does not have anatta lakkhanaa. Panatta seems stable, permanent, eternal and that is why jhanas are unshakable and like mountains. Rupavacara rupa jhana cittas can never take paramattha dhamma as their object. As soon as paramattha dhamma is taken as object, the cittas that take paramatha dhamma are no more 'rupavacara rupa jhana cittas'. They will be kaamaavacara mahakusala citta or kaamaavacara mahakiriya cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff: My question (to either of you, or anyone else) is: what canonical Tipitaka precedent (i.e. what Tipitaka statement) is there that says jhanacitta cannot take paramattha dhamma as object? This notion is not definitively stated in the Sutta Pitaka as far as I know (it isn't stated in the Patisambhidamagga). So is it stated in the Abhidhamma Pitaka (of which I have no access at present time)? Or is this a post canonical development of the Mahavihara commentators? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not a historian. I do not believe that anyone added new to what are taught. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Geoff wrote: > Htoo, says: > > > rupavacara cittas take the object of pannatti and no other > > object can be the object of rupavacara citta. The only object is > > pannatti. Htoo, is this stated in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, or is this a post canonical commentarial development? Metta, Geoff ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 60. Aaruppesu dutiya catutthaani mahaggataarammanaani. 61. Sesaani mahaggatacittaani sabbaanipi panattaarammanaani. Abhidhammatthasangaha says like that. Abhidhammatthasangaha was a small text. It is known as 'little-finger atthakathaa'. No one added anything what The Buddha taught. Atthakathaa and tiikaas are what ancient great bhikkhus wrote to explain Pali in teachings. There were many many many teachings. Atthakathaa and tiikaa do help to understand the teachings. The above text was written by Venerable Anuruddhaa of Celon, who dwelled in Tumuulasoma Monastry, which again was once occupied by Venerable Mahinda. 60. In arupa jhana - Aaruppesu ( aaruppa + esu ) at 2nd, at 4th - dutiya catutthaani ( dutiya/2nd + catuttha/4th + ni/ at) higher objects - mahaggataarammanaani ( mahaggata + arammana + ni) In arupa jhanas, 2nd and 4th arupa jhanas have 'mahaggata object' as their arammana. Mahaggata objects are mahaggata cittas. 2nd arupa jhana takes 'mahagatta citta called 1st arupa jhana citta' and 4th arupa jhana takes 'mahaggata citta called 3rd arupa jhana citta'. So 2nd and 4th arupa jhana cittas take 'mahagatta objects'. Mahaggata cittas are not panatta. 61. All other things left - Sesaani ( sesa/things left + ni/at) In Jhana cittas -Mahaggatacittaani ( mahaggata/jhana +citta+ni) all these jhanas - sabbaanipi ( sabba/these jhanas left + nipi) have pannatta object - panattaarammanaani. This is not later invention. All jhana cittas, that is all rupa jhanas and all arupa jhanas with the exception of 2nd arupa and 4th arupa jhana, all other jhanas or all other jhana cittas take the object of pannatti or all other jhana citta have pannatti as their object. There are 30 kammatthana objects, where those 30 kammatthana meditating citta take as their object and can develop into full jhana that is up to 'appanaa jhana' or 'rupavacara rupa jhanas' or 'arupavacara arupa jhana'. These 30 kammatthanas are 1. 10 kasina objects All 10 are initially visual object. When the mind becomes clearer, there arise a mental image. That image is no more visual object but nimitta pannatta. Again that nimitta pannatta called uggaha nimitta is replaced by another image or object called patibhaga nimitta or counter image of 'mental image'. This counter image is totally different from 'mental image' and also completely different from 'visual image'. These are nimitta pannatta and not paramattha dhamma or paramattha arammana. So all kasina-derived jhanas do take pannatti as their object and they cannot take any other object as their object. They cannot take paramattha object. 2. 10 asubha kamatthana objects This is quite evident that there is no being as paramattha dhamma. All beings are pannatti. Beings in the form of death are also pannatti and not paramattha dhamma. So all 10 asubha kammatthana kusala cittas take pannatti as their objects and no other object can be the object of asubha kammatthana. 'Death people' is pannatti. Not paramattha dhamma. 3. 4 brahmavihara/ brahmacariya kammatthana objects Again, these objects are people or beings. There is no being as paramattha but beings are all pannatti. So all 4 brahmacariya kammatthana objects are pannatti and they cannot be paramattha dhamma. 4. 1 kayagataasat kamatthana object hair, teeth, skin etc are all pannatti and never paramattha. All 32 parts of the body are pannatti. 5. 1 aanaapanassati kammatthana object The breath is pannatti and not paramattha. Breathing meditation can well be jhana object. When it serves as jhana object, it is just pannatti. First there is an object and when uggaha nimitta arise, it is pannatti and when patibhaga nimitta arise, then it is also pannatti. If there is constant vanishing, jhana cannot be developed. If there is anicca, jhana cannot be developed. Pannatti serves as if it is permanent and this makes jhanas unshakable and make mountains. When in true jhana, even thunder storm cannot shake 'the jhana'. 6. 4 aruppa kammatthana object 1st and 3rd arupa jhana take pannatti. 1st take the idea of 'boundless space' and 3rd arupa jhana take pannatti of 'nothingness'. Only these 30 kammatthana can give rise to full jhana or 'appanaa jhana'. And 28 takes pannatti as their object while 2nd and 4th arupa jhana take mahaggata objects. This is the extract of Tipitaka. No one adds any new idea. There are people who do not respect 'Abhidhamma' and they even said 'Abhidhamma' was not taught by The Buddha or Abhidhamma was not preached by The Buddha and they said Abhidhamma is later invention or later adding etc etc. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44161 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 3:39pm Subject: Re: New view on satipatthana 1 htootintnaing Dear Kel, Sarah, Ken H, Carl, James and All, Thanks Kel for your information. 'Formal sitting' :-)) :-)) :-)) Whatever one is doing, a clear ground is necessary. On the ground, I stand. As soon as the ground sinks, then I sink. For insight, there needs a ground. Whether that ground is jhana or not, it is the necessary ground to have cleared all the hindrances. In daily life, there are many thought processes and many thought moments. I do not assume that 'formal sitting' is fortification. Here I just include 'formal sitting'. :-)) Hmmm aversive word? I did not find any Pali as 'formal sitting'. But I believe that as soon as one thinks 'he is fortifying the practice', it may not be right. For jhana practice, stationary postures do need to be maintained. Otherwise, there will be distraction from jhana's object. That is why sitting is necessary for jhana. Standing may do the job. Lying may do the job. But walking is not the practice of jhana cittas. If one has jhana cittas and if they are walking then it is no more the output of kamavacara cittas. Walking in that jhanalabhii is no more ordinary walking or no more the output of kamavacara cittas. In walking, there are many many steps of movement. That is why stationary postures are preferred for foundation for jhana. Even in stationary postures, the mind is not atable as long as not in jhana. But vipassana is not looking for jhana. But a good concentration is needed. This is the ground what we should look for. Siila, samaadhi, pannaa. These are necessary for the Path. Regarding 'sasankharika' and 'asankharika', there is no sankharika in jhanas and lokuttara cittas. Because they are appanaa. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, Carl, Htoo and James > > As far as I know Htoo is on solid ground with what most Burmese > saydaws teach. > > > You may find this article on `Abhidhamma and Vipassana' helpful if > you > > haven't read it already. There should not be any distinction > between the > > theory and practice as I see it: > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/sitagu%20sayadaw.htm > Since you mentioned Sitagu sayadaw > > http://www.sitagu.org/meditation.html - excerpt > While there many varieties of meditation practice that fall under > both of these two main categories, the varieties that are practiced > during group meditation all involve a seated posture. Generally, the > meditators at Sitagu Vihara practice meditation on the in & out > breathing (anapanasati ). This traditional form of meditation can be > used both as a type of concentration meditation and insight > meditation. Traditionally, this form of meditation involves sitting > in a cross-legged position on the floor with an erect posture and > focusing the minds attention on the sensation of the breath as it > enters and exits the tip of the nose. Those who are not comfortable > sitting on the floor may also practice this type of meditation while > seated upright in a chair. > > http://www.sitagu.org/dhamma/upo_retreat.html > I spent three nights there, passing the days in sitting and walking > mediation, reading about the Dhamma, and reflecting on the qualities > of the Buddha. > > > > Is this the definition of prompted? > > > "sansankharika [sasa'nkhaarika] induced, instigated, either by > > > oneself or someone else." > > ... > > S: I think it's a bit of a red herring here. These terms refer to > strong > > and weak states of consciousness. > > Nina posted before of why jhana and lokuttara cittas can't be > said to be either prompted or unprompted. Basically because it's > unclear which one and could be both or either. > > - kel 44162 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 4:15pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (311) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When dying or when near death, one of the following 3 things come to the mind of dying beings. They are 1. kamma 2. kamma nimitta 3. gati nimitta It is 'at near the death' or 'just before the death' that matters linking to another life as a rebirth consciousness. The whole life will definitely end at the vanishing of cuti citta or dying consciousness. The whole life is started with patisandhi citta or rebirth consciousness. In between are bhavanga cittas or life-continuing consciousness provided there is no consciousness directed to current objects. Just before the death is 'the last series of consciousness', which is immediately followed by cuti citta or dying consciousness or life- ending consciousness. Just before that 'last series of consciousness' are some series of consciousness. They are thought processes, which are procession of consciousness or vithi cittas. The cittas in these series take the object from 3 possible objects. 1. object of old kamma 2. object that is kamma-nimitta 3. object that is gati-nimitta Here kamma is not an object. But when kamma is the main thing near dying, then there will be a race or competition of kamma. These kamma are past actions. If these arise, they will take the same objects when these kamma committed the actions. a) Kamma arising near death When dying, or when near death, there arise series of thought. These thoughts may be good thoughts like 'offering things to people' 'keeping precepts' 'charity actions' etc. Or may be bad thoughts like 'angry mind killing people or animals' 'greedy mind raping a woman' 'lying so that others are greatly affected' etc etc. These are past actions and not new actions doing at the time of near- death. One of these old kamma wins the race and it comes out as the leading kamma while other kamma are defeated by this kamma. When this kamma wins, being concerned experiences a mind as if he or she is doing the same thing when he or she did that action such as killing or offering. At that event, the object is the same object when kamma was committed. b)The object,Kamma-nimitta,serving as object of 'final thought process When the winner,kamma did its action, there always was 'directed being or beings who was or were affected by that kamma. It is called upaladdha. They are people who received charity etc or they are animals or people who were killed. When the winner kamma did its action, there always was 'associated things'. They are called upakarana. They are robe, food, monastry, medicine or knives, guns, spears etc. When these are seen anew or heard anew or smelled anew or tasted anew or touched anew or thought anew, this means that the winner kamma is the kamma that did along with these beings or these associated things. c) gati-nimitta When dying, or near death, there always is objects. These objects may well be some scene in the future life, or some food that future life will have or some edifice that future life will dwell. The dying beings see or hear or smell or taste or touch or think these future things at the present. At the end of the last series, there arises cuti citta or dying consciousness and the current life ends compeletely after vanishing of that cuti citta. But as that last series contains kamma potentials,even though cuti citta ends, there are still kamma and this kamma causes arising of new rebirth consciousness. This new rebirth consciousness is the resultant consciousness of cittas that were committing actions in the last series of previous life and this very first consciousness, which is patisandhi citta or linking consciousness or rebirth consciousness reveals that the kamma- candle light is already lit. This process of changing life continues as long as there is tanha or craving, which is the chief cause of all suffering or dukkha. This tanha or craving is only eradicated by arahatta magga nana and as soon as it is eradicated, there is no more rebirth. Then the process of changing life totally cease. But there will be vipaka or resultant effects of remaining kamma and these are all cease to exist as soon as cuti-citta of arahat vanishes. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44163 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 4:47pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (312) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Abhidhammatthasangaha text; vithimuttasangaha 91. paccaasanna maranassa tassa viithi cittaavasaane, bhavangayakkhaye vaa javana vasena paccuppanna bhava pariyosaanabhuutam cuti cittam uppajjitvaa nirujjhati. Tasami.m niruddhaa vasaane tassaanantara meva tathaagahitam aarammanam aarabbha savatthukam, avatthuka meva vaa yathaaraham avijjaanusaya parikkhittena tahnaanusaya mulakena sankhaarena janiyamaanam sampayuttehi pariggshamaanam sahajaataanamadhitthaanabhaavena pubbangamabhuutam bhavantara patisandhaana vasena patisandhi sankhaatam maanasam uppajjamaana meva patitthaati bhavantare. Paccaasanna maranassa_ near death or very close to death, tassa viithi cittaa vasaane_ those procession-consciousness ends or bhavangayakkhaye vaa _ life-continuing-consciousness ends or javana vasena _ mental impulsive-consciousness ends or paccuppanna bhava _current life pariyosaana_ends, bhuutam/clearly cuti cittam_dying consciousness uppajjitva_having arisen nirujjhati_fallen away When dying, in any being, at the end of the final thought process that is at the end of retention-consciousness or tadaarammana citta or at the end of mental impulsive consciousness or javana citta or at the end of the final thought process after arising and ending of life-continuing consciousness or bhavanga citta, the current life ends with arising and passing away of cuti citta or dying-consciousness or life-ending consciousness or life-ceasing consciousness. To summarise in the simplest way; A life starts with patisandhi citta or rebirth consciousness and ends with cuti citta or life-ending consciousness or life-ceasing consciousness or dying consciousness. In between these 2 cittas of the very first and the very last citta or consciousness, there are bhavanga cittas or life-continuing consciousness provided there is no current object attracting the mind. As soon as current objects intervene the flow of life-continuing consciousness or bhavanga cittas, the flow is disturbed and come to cease and the alternative kind of consciousness called vithi citta or citta in procession starts to arise. These cittas in procession or vithi cittas arise in series in the manner of serialness. There are infinite series of such procession of consciousness or vithi cittas. The first series is always 'lobha javana vithi vara' or 'attachment impulsion process'. The last series is 'the final thought process' in a life and it is known as 'marana-asanna-javana vithi vara'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44164 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 5:03pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (313) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Abhidhammatthasangaha text; vithimuttasangaha 91. paccaasanna maranassa tassa viithi cittaavasaane, bhavangakkhaye vaa cavana vasena paccuppanna bhava pariyosaanabhuutam cuti cittam uppajjitvaa nirujjhati. Tasami.m niruddhaa vasaane tassa anantara meva tathaagahitam aarammanam aarabbha savatthukam, avatthuka meva vaa yathaaraham avijja anusaya parikkhittena tahna anusaya mulakena sankhaarena janiya maanam sampayuttehi pariggshamaanam sahajaataa namadhitthaana bhaavena pubbangama bhuutam bhavantara patisandhaana vasena patisandhi sankhaatam maanasam uppajja maana meva patitthaati bhavantare. When dying, at the end of the final thought process that is at the end of retention-consciousness or at the end of impulsion consciousness or after the final thought process life-continuing consciousness arises and at the end of that life-continuing consciousness there arise cavana or cuti citta and at the end of cuti citta, the current life ends and cease to exist. Tasami.m niruddhaa vasaane_after that ceasing consciousness, tassa anantara meva tathaagahitam_that consciousness without interruption taking the same object along with hadaya vatthu or wihtout hadaya vatthu arises as patisandhi citta, which has avijja anusaya and tahna anusaya along with other anusaya serving as the very first consciousness in that next life and that citta, patisandhi citta is immediately followed by bhavanga citta or life-continuing consciousness. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44165 From: "Carl" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 5:04pm Subject: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 c7carl Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: >Hi Carl, > .... > S: I think that many of us use `vipassana' in different ways. When I use > this term, I follow the Pali texts which define it as `insight' or > understanding or wisdom. C: Yes, as you say, 'insight' or insight meditation, or vipassana meditation. ==================================================================== > S: Before we looked at many of the synonyms for > these various terms. (See `vipassana' in U.P.). I agree with you (& James) > that anytime except for when we're in deep sleep is a suitable time to > develop awareness and understanding. C: Yes, many synonyms. Spinning of word meanings in a desired direction or to maintain a particular point of view. For instance "vipsanna practice" What does practice mean? ==================================================================== >S: I think that if you ask Htoo for definitions of vipassana, there won't be > any disagreement. C: I think you are spinning now! Is it unclear that we are discussing "insight meditation"? This is from the discussion of KenH and Htoo on the subject of vipassana that you refered to previously as being "very good". ----------- From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 5, 2005 2:04 am Subject: Re: Vipassana ( Ken H & Htoo 2nd discussion) Htoo wrote to KenH, in part.. (msg #44041) Htoo:.....(snip)....And I agree that 'formal meditation' may well be ritual. But I am still not well digested regarding this point of 'formal meditation' even though I accept your explanation. Sarah could not help me clear in that matter like you. Amara of DSList accused me of 'such thing'. She also could not help people clearly. When I wrote 60 messages which were just conventionalising of mahasatipatthana sutta, some did not agree and there were many complaints. The worst is one who is not the current member of DSG. I will leave it alone....Htoo...(snip) ...............................end quote..................... ====================================================================== >S: When it comes to what is meant by meditation and what support there is for > commonly held ideas – well that's just what he and Ken H were discussing, > so I'll leave it there for now. C: Why? Isn't that exactly what we are discussing? Isn't that the crux of the rift concerning vipassanna (insight)? Do you think this rift is inconsequential? =================================================================== >S: As Htoo knows, I have the highest regard for most of what he writes and > there's no doubt about his great knowledge and familiarity of Abhidhamma > texts.I learn a lot from many of his posts and our discussions which are > always cordial. Can aspects of the texts be interpreted in different > ways? He'll be the first to agree that this is so and btw, I don't think > anything I express is `the standard DSG position' as represented by > anything other than a handful of noisy people, but I understand what you > mean:-) C: Thanks for understanding :-) . You say "As Htoo knows, I have the highest regard for most of what he writes" Hmmmmm, I wonder what you mean here. :-) ================================================================= > S: I think we need to ask what the Abhidhamma is. As I see it, it's no > different from the Dhamma which is no different from the > realities/phenomena/dhammas arising and falling away with their various > characteristics at this very moment. Seeing is Abhidhamma, visible object > is Abhidhamma, feeling, perception, hardness, softness, all namas and > rupas are Abhidhamma. Any direct understanding of them when they are > apparent (i.e just at the present moment ever) is vipassana bhavana > (mental development/meditation). C: Yes, I agree, even when you say "(i.e just at the present moment ever)". :-) How could it be otherwise?. Do you feel that so called "sitting vipassana meditation, or perhaps so called "formal vipassana meditation" is not at the present moment? =================================================================== >S: You may find this article on `Abhidhamma and Vipassana' helpful if you > haven't read it already. There should not be any distinction between the > theory and practice as I see it: > http://www.abhidhamma.org/sitagu%20sayadaw.htm C: Thank you Sarah, and again, this is my understanding also. I see no difference in potential between the non-sitters "vipassana practise" and that of the sitters "vipassana practise". All the same. No need to spin words. I wonder if you would say the word "practise" has two different meanings here? ==================================================================== Thank you, Carl p.s. Appoligies to Htoo if I have oversteped in so freely quoting. If so, I would consider it an honor to be reprimanded by Htoo. 44166 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 5:13pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Cosmique: > I hope you don't mind my butting in for a while. Butt away! Welcome onboard! > for an "enlightened child", whether his mommy is > perceived or not, she is anicca > (impermanent), dukkha (suffering), and anatta (not his mommy at > all!). > ... What matters is that they all have the above > three characteristics. Buddhism is an art of happiness. It is concerned with reality only insofar as it helps people eliminate suffering and find true happiness. To this end, it uses various techniques, such as emphasizing the anicca aspects of the world. However, seeing the world as anicca is not a complete picture of "the way things are," nor does it aspire to be. It is a psychological technique of shifting emphasis onto the impermanent aspects of life so that our minds do not cling to things and produce suffering. Of course, if we are trying to understand the world "as it really is", without the agenda of making people happy, we can see that the universe is indifferent to human interests. The universe itself is neither dukkha nor non-dukkha. Nor is it pure anicca; there are relative degrees of permanence in nature. What would pure impermanence be like? A kaleidoscopic, evanescent chaos? However, there are certain characteristics of reality which, while ultimately impermanent, still have relative permanence, at least from the narrow perspective of our human existence. The sun stays pretty much the same throughout our brief lives, as do the laws of physics, the DNA in our cells, as well as most of the important factors that shape our lives. Sure, we can choose to focus on the changing aspects of existence, if that makes us cling & suffer less, but we do so by ignoring the relatively unchanging aspects of the world. > for an "enlightened child", whether his mommy is > perceived or not, she is anicca > (impermanent), dukkha (suffering), and anatta (not his mommy at > all!). An enlightened infant? Hmm. I'm not sure how useful it would be for a 3 month-old to see its mother as anicca and anatta. Indeed, in the womb, the world is arguably completely anicca and anatta. The development of a sense of permanence and self in childhood are crucial for survival. The Tibetan Buddhist Chogyam Trungpa once remarked that the philosophy of "no-self" should not be foisted on very small children. In childhood, he said, one should "jazz oneself up" (his words) and build a strong sense of self-esteem (atta). To do otherwise would cause maladaption and suffering. Matthew 44167 From: "mnease" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 6:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma & the Way to the Goblin City mlnease Hi Htoo and All, Very well written I think, Htoo, especially ----- Original Message ----- From: "htootintnaing" To: Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 3:20 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma "Pannatti does not arise. Panatti does not fall away. Panatti does not have anicca lakkhanaa. Panatti does not have dukkha lakkhanaa. Panatti does not have anatta lakkhanaa. Panatta seems stable, permanent, eternal and that is why jhanas are unshakable and like mountains." Yes, 'impterturbable'--akkhobbha or nibbikaara. This reminded me of something in the Dispeller, from the Classification of the Structure of Conditions, (ii)[Ignorance as a Condition of Formations], (paragraph 662): "...Also, not aware of the suffering in change [and suffering] in formations [present] in immaterial results, through the perversion of [perceiving them as] eternal, etc., he initiates the formation of the imperturbable which is the mental formation, like one who has lost his way and takes the road to a goblin city." mike 44168 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 10:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Htoo, I respect the sincerity of your faith and your knowledge of the exegetical interpretation of the Tipitaka, but when I read the Sutta Pitaka I don't find much of what is presented in the Visuddhimagga for example. The Buddha said in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta that authority for any teaching lies in the Sutta Pitaka and Vinaya Pitaka, so I'm trying to trace the notions of the commentators back to their source, and cannot find any source in the Sutta Pitaka, and so now I'm wondering if these notions are supported in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. So when you say: > No one adds any new idea. Well, I'm not so sure. And so my question (to anyone) still is: what canonical Tipitaka precedent (i.e. what Tipitaka statement) is there that says jhanacitta cannot take paramattha dhamma as object? This notion is not definitively stated in the Sutta Pitaka as far as I know (it isn't stated in the Patisambhidamagga). So is it stated in the Abhidhamma Pitaka (of which I have no access at present time)? Or is this a post canonical development of the Mahavihara commentators? Respectfully yours, Geoff 44169 From: "oselok" Date: Sat Apr 9, 2005 11:18pm Subject: Is memory a mano-dhamma? oselok Hello, Let me ask a simple question: is memory about an impression of sight or sound, an object of mano, or an object of corresponding sense doors? Mettena cittena, Dmytro http://dhamma.ru/sadhu/ 44170 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 0:56am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 162- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (l) sarahprocterabb... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] Kusala viriya can be energy for dåna, for síla, for samatha or for vipassanå. It depends on conditions which type of kusala arises at a particular moment. If one wants, for example, to subdue defilements through the development of calm and one knows how to develop calm, there is energy and perseverance with the development of calm. If one’s goal is knowing realities as they are there are conditions for energy for vipassanå. This kind of energy or effort arises together with the citta which is mindful of a nåma or rúpa appearing now, at this moment. Right effort arises because of its own conditions; there is no self who can exert himself. When we have a notion of self who has to make an effort to be aware, there is wrong effort instead of right effort. Right effort is a conditioned dhamma, saòkhåra dhamma, which arises because of its own conditions. It does not last, it falls away immediately with the citta it accompanies and then wrong effort may arise. ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44171 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Spoke with Bhikkhu Bodhi last night Re: insight knowledges nilovg Hi Andrew L, op 06-04-2005 20:22 schreef Andrew Levin op lone.renunciant@...: > I do know that Nina has cited some text or another which says > mindfulness of breathing is intended for some special order of monks > only, and I do not have access to these texts (I only have two of the > Nikayas as far as the canon is concerned, then the Vissudhimagga and > some other modern and modernish books, no sub-commentaries or > anything), N: I did not say intended for some special order of monks. In the Visuddhimagga it is stated that this subject is most difficult and intended for maha-purisas, and Buddha's sons. At the same time we read about laypeople in the Buddha's time who practised it. But the main thing is that one should have precise understanding of this subject. A: Abhidhamma to me means knowing the exact realities, > at the same level, or an even deeper level, than the contemplations > on the elements, contemplation on consciousness, and so on, rather > than a method or vehicle of practise on its own. N: Agreed. But the elements and cittas etc. are Abhidhamma. They are realities. Nina. 44172 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aeternum vale Rusty! Farewell forever nilovg Dear Christine, Just back I am very sorry to hear about Rusty. My father lost many dogs during his long life, but we still talk about these good companions. We feel sympathy with you and your children. I like you quoting the five recollections, those mean a lot to me. It is appropritae what Sarah says. See below. op 06-04-2005 11:39 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > And back we come again to seeing and visible object; just a moment of > seeing and then immediately stories about what is seen with usually no > awareness. Even now there can be awareness of that seeing or visible > object. > This is all life consists of from moment to moment - seeing, hearing, > likes, dislikes and so on, whether for us or 'just a dog'. N: But sometimes we are not ready for it, I know. It is hard: life is only a moment. Easier said than done! But I hope what you just heard in Bgk can be of comfort in this difficult time. I just heard on India tape:< Life goes on with people and things and we think they are real. But it is not like that at all! There should be detachment from the beginning.> That detachment from the beginning is so hard since we accumulated attachment. But at the same time Kh Sujin repeated: patience is the highest ascetism. We should develop the Path with patience. Nina. 44173 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Akusala cittas nilovg Dear Htoo, op 05-04-2005 10:43 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > Example child, if he is a born sotapanna will not have any ditthi or > wrong view. Here there need not any thinking. N: So, this example is about the latent tendency of wrong view of the child. I understand that you want to make it simple. Nina. 44174 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Geoff, op 07-04-2005 21:21 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: > According to the Pitaka is jhanacitta as rupavacara kusala citta and > rupavacara kiriya citta attainable in kamavacara bhumi? N: We have to differentiate plane of citta and plane of existence when using the word bhumi. Yes of course, jhana can be cultivated in the human plane. We raed all this in the suttas. But the result of jhana does not occur in this plane. That is rebirth in a rupa brahma plane of existence. G: : I'm still wondering why post canonical commentators state that > jhanacitta cannot have sensory form as object ... what the canonical > precident for this understanding would be??? N:Think of the sutta texts: aloof from sense impressions.. The aim is to be away from sense objects and the attachment involved. Nina. 44175 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sasankharika, to Carl. nilovg Hi Carl, op 09-04-2005 02:07 schreef Carl op c7carl@...: > > Sarah, I dont know if this fits in anywhere in this discussion, but I > am wondering about the terms "prompted and unprompted" > > Is this the definition of prompted? > "sansankharika [sasa'nkhaarika] induced, instigated, either by > oneself or someone else." N: Yes, but more is explained by the Tiika Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV, 83. I quote: This explanation indicates the difference in quality between kusala citta that arises spontaneously, without any hesitation, and kusala citta that is more hesitant, that needs prompting. There are many different degrees of kusala and they are dependent on different conditions. Confidence in the benefit of kusala has many degrees. Through satipatthana confidence in kusala develops.> Nina. 44176 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 jonoabb Hi Carl I hope you don't mind me butting in here. Carl wrote: >Hi Sarah, >I think you liked Ken H's response very much. But perhaps you should >reconsider what Htoo said (or didn't say). Htoo remains apart from >the notion that formal meditation is a waste of time (my words). I >believe that Htoo is still pondering your viewpoint on Vipassana. The >discussion was not concluded and the two views of >Vipassana "meditation" exist louder than ever. As Andrew, I also >wonder how these two views can be resolved. > > I think Htoo has since clarified his view further. However, it's not really a question of whose view is what, but of the correct understanding of what the Buddha said on the subject. On this there is no simple answer because, unfortunately we start from a position of much ignorance and wrong view. But one thing for sure is that there will always be diverging views, strongly held, on the matter, and we cannot expect a resolution of these views (and this was so even in the time of the Buddha himself). >My view is as Andrew's with the addition that vipassana is also a 24 >hour 7 days a week effort. > >I am totaly confused! I am very troubled because these two views have >aroused doubts about vipassana. How can one notion be right and the >other wrong? > > Yes, it is indeed confusing. However, if it's of any comfort, you are far from being alone in your confusion (and discouragement, perhaps), and there are also many others who have been through the same and have survived ;-)). I think the best thing in this situation is to keep focussed on one's study and enquiry and reflection, building on the understanding that is already there but not expecting any quick results or breakthroughs. Besides, must one view be 'right' and the other 'wrong'? >Htoo's position (as I see it) seems remarkably in >contrast to the standard DSG position of the staunch Abhidhammists >here. Can there be any doubt that Htoo is an Abhidamma expert? > > I would say, and I'm sure Htoo would agree, that knowledge of the Tipitaka is one thing, and a proper understanding of the teachings another. 'Book' knowledge is not the same as (correct) intellectual understanding (pariyatti). >Sarah, I dont know if this fits in anywhere in this discussion, but I >am wondering about the terms "prompted and unprompted" > >Is this the definition of prompted? >"sansankharika [sasa'nkhaarika] induced, instigated, either by >oneself or someone else." > > I think you are suggesting that the development of insight needs prompting, and I would agree with that in general. Understanding of the level of satipatthana is weak and needs all the help it can get. What kind of prompting? On my reading of the suttas, the prompting encouraged by the Buddha was studying the words of the Buddha, being in contact with others who have good understanding of the teachings and listening to/reading what they have to say about the development of insight and other kusala, considering and reflecting on what one has heard/read about the teachings, and of course applying what one has come to properly understand. Recommendations to this effect are found throughout the suttas. It is true that the Buddha also gave other recommendations on occasion, but we need to consider the particular context, for example, whether the 'roots of trees' lifestyle is being recommended for all or for just a selected audience. There are no quick answers to these questions, but perseverance will be rewarded I believe ;-)) Hope this helps. Jon 44177 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:14am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma kenhowardau Hi Matthew, There are many interpretations of the Buddha's Dhamma that divert from the ancient Theravadin texts. But your interpretation is so diverse as to be unrecognisable. I hope this is not a rude question, but I would like to know if you are aware of the variance. Do you, for example, realise that the texts say all dhammas, with the exception of Nibbana, are anicca and dukkha, and all dhammas, including Nibbana, are anatta? Have you acquired your interpretation on your own, or does it belong to an established School of Buddhism? I apologise if these are tactless questions. Ken H M: > Buddhism is an art of happiness. It is concerned with reality only insofar as it helps people eliminate suffering and find true happiness. To this end, it uses various techniques, such as emphasizing the anicca aspects of the world. However, seeing the world as anicca is not a complete picture of "the way things are," nor does it aspire to be. It is a psychological technique of shifting emphasis onto the impermanent aspects of life so that our minds do not cling to things and produce suffering. Of course, if we are trying to understand the world "as it really is", without the agenda of making people happy, we can see that the universe is indifferent to human interests. The universe itself is neither dukkha nor non-dukkha. Nor is it pure anicca; there are relative degrees of permanence in nature. What would pure impermanence be like? A kaleidoscopic, evanescent chaos? However, there are certain characteristics of reality which, while ultimately impermanent, still have relative permanence, at least from the narrow perspective of our human existence. The sun stays pretty much the same throughout our brief lives, as do the laws of physics, the DNA in our cells, as well as most of the important factors that shape our lives. Sure, we can choose to focus on the changing aspects of existence, if that makes us cling & suffer less, but we do so by ignoring the relatively unchanging aspects of the world. Cosmique: > > for an "enlightened child", whether his mommy is > perceived or not, she is anicca > (impermanent), dukkha (suffering), and anatta (not his mommy at > all!). M: > An enlightened infant? Hmm. I'm not sure how useful it would be for a 3 month-old to see its mother as anicca and anatta. Indeed, in the womb, the world is arguably completely anicca and anatta. The development of a sense of permanence and self in childhood are crucial for survival. The Tibetan Buddhist Chogyam Trungpa once remarked that the philosophy of "no-self" should not be foisted on very small children. In childhood, he said, one should "jazz oneself up" (his words) and build a strong sense of self-esteem (atta). To do otherwise would cause maladaption and suffering. Matthew 44178 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma jonoabb Hi Matthew Matthew Miller wrote: >I'm not so sure if it's wise to work from a pre-conceived definition >of 'reality'. So I'll just offer Philip K. Dick's open-ended >definition: > >"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go >away." > -- Philip K. Dick (American writer, 1928-1982) > > This is not a bad definition at all. Reality is what is there no matter whether you think about it or no matter what you call it. Do not the phenomena identified by the Buddha as 'dhammas' fit that description: seeing consciousness, visible object, hearing consciousness, audible object, attachment, aversion, pleasant and unpleasant feeling, hardness, etc. As I see it, 'reality' must be something that is universal, both as to individual beings and as to past, present and future. Otherwise, what would be the point of trying to understand it? Jon 44179 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma jonoabb Hi Geoff sunnaloka wrote: >My question (to either of you, or anyone else) is: what canonical >Tipitaka precedent (i.e. what Tipitaka statement) is there that says >jhanacitta cannot take paramattha dhamma as object? This notion is not >definitively stated in the Sutta Pitaka as far as I know (it isn't >stated in the Patisambhidamagga). So is it stated in the Abhidhamma >Pitaka (of which I have no access at present time)? Or is this a post >canonical development of the Mahavihara commentators? > >Htoo, says: > > > >>rupavacara cittas take the object of pannatti and no other >>object can be the object of rupavacara citta. The only object is >>pannatti. >> >> > >Htoo, is this stated in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, or is this a post >canonical commentarial development? > > I see Nina has mentioned a relevant passage from the texts. But in any event, as Nina also says, the aim of jhana is to be without sense-door experiences, as these are seen as a cause for the arising of akusala citta. So it seems odd to be asserting (if anyone is) that a sense-door object could be the object of jhana citta. Perhaps you could explain where you are coming from on this one. What paramattha dhammas do you have in mind? Jon 44180 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:22am Subject: Re: A Question Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 jonoabb Hi Charles Charles DaCosta wrote: >Jon Replied: I would think that only at moments of satipatthana and/or insight can there be a 'transforming' of the mundane, and then only in a figurative sense. >........................................................ > >Yes, especially when there is insight; however I am not sure what you mean by "in a figurative sense." > > I mean that a moment of mundane insight is not in itself a transforming moment, but it is by virtue of the accumulated effect of such moments that a transformation eventually occurs. Jon 44181 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 jonoabb Hi Htoo There are many good observations in your post that I agree with, but I would like to pick up one point that I question. htootintnaing wrote: >For jhana practice, stationary postures do need to be maintained. >Otherwise, there will be distraction from jhana's object. That is why >sitting is necessary for jhana. Standing may do the job. Lying may do >the job. But walking is not the practice of jhana cittas. > >If one has jhana cittas and if they are walking then it is no more >the output of kamavacara cittas. Walking in that jhanalabhii is no >more ordinary walking or no more the output of kamavacara cittas. > >In walking, there are many many steps of movement. > >That is why stationary postures are preferred for foundation for >jhana. > >Even in stationary postures, the mind is not atable as long as not in >jhana. > > As I understand it, those monks whose lives were devoted to the development of jhana did not cease that development whenever they walked or moved. So whether sitting or going about their necessary daily activities, the development of samatha continued. You will be familiar with the story in the Vism concerning the elder Mahatissa who was in jhana while walking to the village on his alms round. Jon 44182 From: cosmique Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma cosmique1000 Hi Matthew, Matthew Miller wrote: ...seeing the world as anicca is not a complete picture of "the way things are," nor does it aspire to be. It is a psychological technique of shifting emphasis onto the impermanent aspects of life so that our minds do not cling to things and produce suffering. Buddhism is meaningless without the “psychological technique”. In order to get the complete picture, anicca has to be complemented by dukkha and, especially, anatta. These three aspects make up "seeing things as ther really are". If one of the tree is missing, the picture is going to be incomplete and might degenerate into religious belief. But if one's mind is shifted to impersonality of whatever is perceived – one's body, for example - one is not going to grieve when it ceases. That’s the simple secret of the art of happiness. It is for the pragmatic reason that Buddha avoided answering the 10 unanswered questions regarding metaphysical issues. If a person gets rid of his “I”, he is not interested anymore to know whom he was, or whether he was in a previous life; whom he will be, or whether he will be in a life to come. By the same token other realities and concepts are treated. What about aliens, god, matter or anti-matter? Firstly, they all are impermanent. And even if they have a certain degree of permanence, as you put it, still they are not self-contained or self-sufficient because they arose due to certain causes and conditions. With this view in mind, one’s search for permanent existence is over. Secondly, clinging to them brings about dukkha. I agree, they are not dukkha or sukha in and of themselves. Having this in mind, one’s lust for happy life out there and disgust for unhappy life here are over. Thirdly, they are impersonal, not-mine, not-me, not-I. Such a view puts an end to time-consuming speculations about “real selves”, “true natures”, “spirits”, etc. If a man is not interested in soccer, he does not care about who won the final game. I think Buddhas’s pragmatic approach exhausts all options of “spiritual searches” and brings minds back to earth, yet charged with totally different vision. It is like in the case of a Zen master who said that before his spiritual search, mountains were mountains and rivers were rivers. When he started his Zen practice mountains and rivers ceased to be mountains and rivers. After he realized the truth, mountains and rivers became mountains and rivers again. What else needs to be added? An enlightened infant? Hmm. I'm not sure how useful it would be for a 3 month-old to see its mother as anicca and anatta. Indeed, in the womb, the world is arguably completely anicca and anatta. The development of a sense of permanence and self in childhood are crucial for survival. The Tibetan Buddhist Chogyam Trungpa once remarked that the philosophy of "no-self" should not be foisted on very small children. In childhood, he said, one should "jazz oneself up" (his words) and build a strong sense of self-esteem (atta). To do otherwise would cause maladaption and suffering. The “enlightened child” is just a parable based on your illustration. Do not take it literally. By “the child & his mommy” I meant any perceiving subject and any perceived object respectively. Needless to say, to teach children anatta is a sort of sacrilege and profanation. It is of the same use as teaching them quantum physics or feeding them with roasted beef instead of milk for it will cause nothing but confusion in their minds. For each thing there is its season. On the other hand, I think that some aspects of the Dhamma such as death, impermanence, suffering need to be taught to kids lest kids grow too naive not to know that “this world is not their home, they are just passing thru…” Metta, Cosmique The heaviness of one's burden is due to one's grasping. 44183 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings4 - Calm and Concentration sarahprocterabb... Dear Htoo, Kel & All, In Musings 3, I mentioned that ‘the purpose is not to specially concentrate, but to understand any dhammas appearing in daily life. Attachment and calm are dhammas that need to be clearly distinguished. We also discussed the differences between the development of concentration and calm”. Concentration or samadhi is ekaggata cetasika (a mental factor) which arises at every moment unknowingly. For example at moments of seeing consciousness there is momentary concentration, but do we have any idea? From Nyantiloka’s dictionary” Samádhi --'concentration'; lit. 'the (mental) state of being firmly fixed' (sam+á+dhá), is the fixing of the mind on a single object. "One-pointedness of mind (cittass' ekaggatá), Brother Visakha, this is called concentration" (M. 44). Concentration - though often very weak - is one of the 7 mental concomitants inseparably associated with all consciousness.” *** Calm is passaddhi cetasika and only arises with wholesome moments of consciousness. When there is more kusala (wholesome consciousness) in a day, then calm grows. Calm is conditioned by concentration (ekaggata) and concentration is conditioned and supported by calm (passaddhi). They have different characteristics, but initially when kusala grows, I understand that it is calm which is more likely to be apparent. When panna (understanding) grows, it eventually becomes a bojjhanga (enlightenment factor)along with samadhi (concentration). Adhi citta (higher concentration) is the development of right concentration(i.e momentary ekaggata or samadhi) and calm (passaddhi) which are perfected only at the stage of anagami when attachment to sensuous objects is eradicated. When concentration seems to be apparent, such as when we’re working on a difficult task, it is the akusala (unwholesome) concentration which is known at such times and it is this kind of concentration which we cling to. The strength of concentration at any moment depends on the accompanying cetasikas, so when there hasn’t been a lot of understanding developed of any kind, strong concentration is always unwholesome. I think this is very important, because otherwise it’s easy to take such concentration for being the development of skilful samadhi or samatha. When the citta (consciousness) is kusala (wholesome), other qualities of other wholesome mental states such as metta, dana or calm appear instead. So it’s wrong to conclude that concentration is so important that we must see it, because when we think like this we’re bound to be clinging to akusala concentration. It’s not easy at all for kusala concentration to be the object of understanding and we therefore cannot measure calm or understanding by the concentration which shows up. In fact in the development of satipatthana, I understand it is only at stages of insight that concentration and wisdom become ‘yoked’ (yuganaddha). Then the strength of both grow together and the characteristic of the former is known to be arising with panna (wisdom). In the development of samatha (calm), if upacara or appana samadhi* are attained, the level of concentration and calm supports panna and vice versa. Clearly the concentration is of a different degree and quality and lasts for more moments. However, without developing any understanding of calm and other wholesome qualities when they arise naturally at moments of samatha (such as at moments of metta or dana or wise reflections as discussed last time), we’re bound to be misled by other qualities including attachment and unwholesome concentration. Then there won’t be any development of any kind of bhavana (mental development/meditation). I also found it useful to discuss in more detail about the two meanings or kinds of jhana (to be contd) Metta, Sarah * “In concentration one distinguishes 3 grades of intensity: • (1) 'Preparatory concentration' (parikamma-samádhi) existing at the beginning of the mental exercise. • (2) 'Neighbourhood concentration' (upacára-samádhi), i.e. concentration 'approaching' but not yet attaining the 1st absorption (jhána), which in certain mental exercises is marked by the appearance of the so-called 'counter-image' (patibhága-nimitta). (3) 'Attainment concentration' (appaná-samádhi), i.e. that concentration which is present during the absorptions.” ======== 44184 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:13am Subject: Re: About rafts (Was: [dsg] Having no opinions jonoabb Hi Joop May I butt in here? >Dear Sarah > >S: If by 'RIGHT VIEWS' you are referring to samma ditthi or panna, >then the Buddha had right views most the time and it is this same >samma ditthi or panna that needs to be cultivated as I read the texts. > >Joop: A view only exists in terms of concepts, of words. A right view >is a view and I try to avoid to have one, that's the way I want to >use the texts. >So rests the wisdom (panna), I accept that as something I want to >have; but WISDOM IS WITHOUT WORDS, WITHOUT CONCEPTS, and can only be >approached, never be touched in any text. > > I see a misunderstanding in use of terminology occurring here. Yes, panna is a mental factor that occurs without words or concepts. However, one of the terms used in the texts for panna is samma-ditthi, which translates as 'Right View'. Now 'right view' here does not refer to 'a view' in the ordinary sense of the word; it means just the same as panna, namely, a mental factor that arises with consciousness. Nonetheless, to my understanding, the aim should be the development of panna, rather than the absence of concepts/views. When there is panna, there is no wrong conceptualising. In any event, is there anything wrong with concepts per se? What would be the point of having no concepts (if that were indeed possible) if there was no developed insight? >I only found one message in UP about 'Raft', your #24878 and that has >hardly to do with our topic: >"Can we leave all the Teachings - as a raft - behind us?" >This has (for me) to do with a topic I raised some weeks ago >about 'Skilful means' (43903). My hypothesis was that the >word 'skilful means' in hardly used in Theravada as in Mahayana but >that also according Theravada the Buddha used this pedagogical >technique. A 'raft' is (to me) an example of a 'skilful means': who >is more wise can leave a big part of the literal interpretation of >the Tipitaka as a raft, as something that was useful so should not be >dealed with disdain, and can be left behind on the further buddhistic >path. > > The simile of the raft is just that, a simile. The purpose of the simile seems to be to point out that even the teachings are not to be clung to. To elevate the raft to the status of a 'skilful means' seems to be stretching the sutta somewhat, don't you think? >But again: we can only discuss fruitful about this topic if you want >to use a frame of reference broader than that of one Theravada- >tradition. > > Well, as long as you can keep your points related to the Theravada tradition, we can discuss them. Perhaps you can use some skilful means of discussion to do this ;-)) >Joop: This makes our 'discussion' really funny: you say that I should >read in the teachings what I experience in my (insight-)meditation. >I use the word 'discussion' but in fact it's hardly a communication >because we write out of different frames of reference, as I said in >my neglected proposal to the moderators (but in this case it's not a >big problems, your narrowmindedness only helps me formulating what's >important for me and what is my path). > > Well, every list has it's declared scope, for obvious reasons. As long as you can relate your comments to our group description, we can discuss them. Jon 44185 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Aeternum vale Rusty! Farewell forever christine_forsy... Hello Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Christine, > Just back I am very sorry to hear about Rusty. My father lost many dogs > during his long life, but we still talk about these good companions. We feel > sympathy with you and your children. > I like you quoting the five recollections, those mean a lot to me. ------------------------------------ Christine: Thank you for your post Nina. I'll let SarahF and Luke know of your sympathy. Yes, there is nothing like the experience of the death of a dear companion to bring home the truth of the five recollections and the dukkha inherent in the five khandas. :-) --------------------------------- > It is appropritae what Sarah says. See below. > op 06-04-2005 11:39 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > > And back we come again to seeing and visible object; just a moment of > > seeing and then immediately stories about what is seen with usually no > > awareness. Even now there can be awareness of that seeing or visible > > object. > > This is all life consists of from moment to moment - seeing, hearing, > > likes, dislikes and so on, whether for us or 'just a dog'. > N: But sometimes we are not ready for it, I know. It is hard: life is only a > moment. Easier said than done! But I hope what you just heard in Bgk can be > of comfort in this difficult time. > I just heard on India tape:< Life goes on with people and things and we > think they are real. But it is not like that at all! There should be > detachment from the beginning.> > That detachment from the beginning is so hard since we accumulated > attachment. But at the same time Kh Sujin repeated: patience is the highest > ascetism. We should develop the Path with patience. > Nina. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine: Yes, I liked Sarah's reminders. Life as a moment has basically been forgotten most of the time this last week. But we're getting back to normal now, with the help of some emails from good dhamma friends. :-) I'm glad you reminded me of Kh Sujin's saying about patience. I just posted it on another list as well. :-) I like to recall another saying of hers: "Begin Again!". metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 44186 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sarahprocterabb... Hi Geoff (& Htoo), --- sunnaloka wrote: > > > Hi Htoo, > > I respect the sincerity of your faith and your knowledge of the > exegetical interpretation of the Tipitaka, but when I read the Sutta > Pitaka I don't find much of what is presented in the Visuddhimagga > for example. The Buddha said in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta that > authority for any teaching lies in the Sutta Pitaka and Vinaya > Pitaka, .... S: I agree with all Htoo's comments here. The comy to the sutta makes it clear that this refers to the Dhamma-Vinaya, the Tipitaka: "And during my life, I have taught these: the four foundations of mindfulenss (satipatthana) etc.....In various ways I have analysed these doctrinal matters and have taught the basket of Suttanta. All of that basket of Suttanta will perform the role of Teacher for you when I attain parinibbana. "And during my life, I have taught these: the five aggregates, twelve spheres (ayatanas) etc.......I have analysed these things in detail and taught the Abhidhamma-pitaka, which is adorned by the Mahapatthana......All of that, the basket of the Abhidhamma, will perform the role of the Teacher for you when I attain parinibbana. "Thus all of this has been told and discussed for forty-five years .....; three baskets, five Nikayas, nine branches (angas), eighty-four thousand groups of dhamma remain. I alone attain parinibbana, and now I alone advise and instruct. After I have attained parinibbana, these eighty-four thousand groups of dhamma will advise and instruct you." (PTS transl) .... >so I'm trying to trace the notions of the commentators back > to their source, and cannot find any source in the Sutta Pitaka, and > so now I'm wondering if these notions are supported in the Abhidhamma > Pitaka. So when you say: > > > No one adds any new idea. > > Well, I'm not so sure. And so my question (to anyone) still is: what > canonical Tipitaka precedent (i.e. what Tipitaka statement) is there > that says jhanacitta cannot take paramattha dhamma as object? This > notion is not definitively stated in the Sutta Pitaka as far as I > know (it isn't stated in the Patisambhidamagga). So is it stated in > the Abhidhamma Pitaka (of which I have no access at present time)? Or > is this a post canonical development of the Mahavihara commentators? ... S: In the Abhidhamma Pitaka, all paramattha dhammas are clearly categorised. Any thing which is not included is by implication not a paramattha dhamma. When we refer to person (as object of the brahma viharas), kasina, breath etc, what paramattha dhammas can they be? From BB's CMA on the same section Htoo quoted in Narada's transl: 111,18: "Among the immaterial (consciousness), the second and fourth take sublime objects. All the remaining sublime consciousness take concepts as objects. The supramundane consciousness take Nibbana as object." BB's Guide based on the commentary: "'Among the immaterial, etc': the second immaterial citta takes the first immaterial citta as object, while the fourth immaterial citta takes the third as object. Thus these two cittas take sublime entities as object. " 'All the remaining sublime consciousnesses': the fine-material jhana cittas take as object a conceptual entity such as the counterpart sign in the case of the kasinas, or living beings in the case of the illimitables. The first immaterial citta takes as object the concept of infinite space, the third takes as object the concept of nothingness or non-existence." Metta, Sarah ==== 44187 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings3 - Recollection of Death and other special reflections sarahprocterabb... Hi Kel, --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > > So does this mean we should ignore Chapter III to IX of > Visuddhimagga? ... S: No, but any part of the teachings will be read according to our limited understanding. As we see with ch X1V, without the assistance of the Tika, considerable Abhidhamma knowledge and good friends, it's not easy to read and comprehend. Even when we have all this assistance, our accumulated ignorance, attachment and wrong views take us off-track all the time, especially when we forget that the entire teachings are about the development of satipatthana, the development of understanding dhammas as elements, devoid of self, at this very moment. Even the first few lines in chapter 111 need a lot of discussion, understanding and reflection, I think. How about you? Metta, Sarah S:> > I mentioned that `we also discussed how samatha (calm) cannot be > developed > > by paying special attention to particular objects'. We were reminded > that > > there is no need for any particular reflections, such as reflections > on > > the Buddha's virtues or recollections on death, for example. 44188 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:23am Subject: Re: About rafts (Was: [dsg] Having no opinions jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Joop > > May I butt in here? ... Hallo Jon, and Sarah Jon: Now 'right view' here does not refer to 'a view' in the ordinary sense of the word; it means just the same as panna, namely, a mental factor that arises with consciousness. Joop: I have an explanation like yours in Nyatiloka's Dictionary this morning. I think my mental flexibility is big enough to accept the idea that a 'right view' is not a view. Jon: Nonetheless, to my understanding, the aim should be the development of panna, rather than the absence of concepts/views. When there is panna, there is no wrong conceptualising. In any event, is there anything wrong with concepts per se? What would be the point of having no concepts (if that were indeed possible) if there was no developed insight? Joop: It's a matter of aims and means to that aim, to that end of developping panna. I experience that trying to have no opinions, to realize constantly that I'm conceptualizing, is a mean to that end (if this method is according the 'texts' or not). Jon: The simile of the raft is just that, a simile. The purpose of the simile seems to be to point out that even the teachings are not to be cung to. To elevate the raft to the status of a 'skilful means' seems to be stretching the sutta somewhat, don't you think? Joop: No, I don't think it's overstretching. Jon: Well, as long as you can keep your points related to the Theravada tradition, we can discuss them. Perhaps you can use some skilful means of discussion to do this ;-)) … every list has it's declared scope, for obvious reasons. As long as you can relate your comments to our group description, we can discuss them. Joop: If you talk about the third of my proposed 'fields of discussion (see under), that it's OK. When you say only the first and second field, than my reaction is: that's not enough because on this moment comparing Theravada and Mahayana is important to me. When I state something and the reaction is: that's not so according the (in fact: one) Theravada tradition, that's not inspiring enough. Metta Joop Part of my proposal about the DSG-structure: - More than one field of discussion. For example:  Discussions within the frame of reference of Abhidhamma - Buddhaghosa - Sujin  Technical questions about that frame of reference  Discussions about but not totally within that frame of reference  Broader Buddhistic discussions 44189 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H sarahprocterabb... Hi Kel, --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > > Kel: As far as I recalled, you got references about Buddhas and > Great Disciples. And we had this lengthy discussion about gotrabhu > and anuloma nanas. ... S: More lengthy discussions in Bkk - will say more in a Musing down the line. in short, I'm sticking to my story for now:-). ... >When it came to dvihetuka we both admitted lack of > references (with :P). I checked my position with Burmese monks and > they agreed but I didn't ask them to give exact references since I > thought it was done. We don't have class this saturday cause of early > Burmese New Year festival on sunday. People are busy cooking. So I > might bug my teacher tonight to see if he can find references since he > should be free. ... S: Thx - look f/w to anything you find. I believe you'll just find references which make it clear that those with 2 roots cannot reach enlightenment or attain jhanas. The rest we infer differently according to our understanding. We can never know about someone's roots but we can question why someone listens to the teachings, especially on anatta and gets nothing out of it. I think any further speculation, however, is useless. If we don't have more specific references, we can just leave it open and agree we don't know:-/. Metta, Sarah ======= 44190 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo > > There are many good observations in your post that I agree with, but I > would l ... snip ... ...snip ...So whether sitting or going about their necessary daily > activities, the development of samatha continued. You will be familiar > with the story in the Vism concerning the elder Mahatissa who was in > jhana while walking to the village on his alms round. > > Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, Thanks for your reply. If in walking, these movements of walking are all cittaja ruupa and they have to be so. If the cittas are all jhanas, then these walking movements have to be abhinna's output. Otherwise walking cannot be done by jhanas. Because the object of jhana is separate and not the movement and intention to move. As there are infinite moments, jhana cittas may arise in between. So these jhanas are not in the form of jhana-samapatti or jhana- attainment. In Myanmar, once there was a novice. He went alm round to 3 differtent villages. This happened for a long time. Only when 3 villagers of 3 different villages met, they talked about the4 novice and came to know that the novice was going alm round at the same time. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44191 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Akusala cittas htootintnaing Dear Nina, Yes, indeed. But sometimes simplification does not satisfy all grades of people. With respect, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > op 05-04-2005 10:43 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > Example child, if he is a born sotapanna will not have any ditthi or > > wrong view. Here there need not any thinking. > N: So, this example is about the latent tendency of wrong view of the child. > I understand that you want to make it simple. > Nina. 44192 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:41am Subject: Re: Is memory a mano-dhamma? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "oselok" wrote: > > > Hello, > > Let me ask a simple question: > > is memory about an impression of sight or sound, an object of mano, or > an object of corresponding sense doors? > > Mettena cittena, Dmytro > > http://dhamma.ru/sadhu/ -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Oselok, You asked 'is memory about an imprerssion of sight or sound'? is memory about an object of mano? is memory about an object of corresponding sense doors? Here I have ask you 'what is impression'? Question 1 needs your response. Question 2 : Yes. Memory is an object of mano or mind. Question 3 : Hard to answer because your question is not specific. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44193 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sunnaloka" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > I respect the sincerity of your faith and your knowledge of the > exegetical interpretation of the Tipitaka, but when I read the Sutta > Pitaka I don't find much of what is presented in the Visuddhimagga > for example. The Buddha said in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta that > authority for any teaching lies in the Sutta Pitaka and Vinaya > Pitaka, so I'm trying to trace the notions of the commentators back > to their source, and cannot find any source in the Sutta Pitaka, and > so now I'm wondering if these notions are supported in the Abhidhamma > Pitaka. So when you say: > > > No one adds any new idea. > > Well, I'm not so sure. And so my question (to anyone) still is: what > canonical Tipitaka precedent (i.e. what Tipitaka statement) is there > that says jhanacitta cannot take paramattha dhamma as object? This > notion is not definitively stated in the Sutta Pitaka as far as I > know (it isn't stated in the Patisambhidamagga). So is it stated in > the Abhidhamma Pitaka (of which I have no access at present time)? Or > is this a post canonical development of the Mahavihara commentators? > > Respectfully yours, > > Geoff ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Geoff, As far as I met, people are talking Sutta, sutta, sutta. But when their understanding is checked, they even do not fully understand what suttas say. Even a single sutta is not fully worked out by such people. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44194 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:56am Subject: Dhamma Thread (314) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When a being is just going to be reborn in a kama bhumi or in a plane of 11 sensuous planes of existence, there will be the object related to those bhumi. Near death, especially in the final thought process, there are only 5 impulsive consciousness or 5 javana cittas. These javana cittas take the object like 'sight of knives, spears, guns' or 'sight of monks, The Buddha, monastry' or sound of 'crying animals' 'or 'sound of bell' 'sound of chanting' etc etc. Or some see 'the wall of abdhomen of future mother' 'great fire of hell' or sound of mother or sound of 'crying for help' etc. While these appear, marana-asanna-javana take them as current object and death comes. And this is immediately followed by patisandhi citta or rebirth consciousness. This consciousness take the same object of marana-asanna-javana cittas and they take the current object. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44195 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Geoff and Htoo, op 10-04-2005 07:26 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: what > canonical Tipitaka precedent (i.e. what Tipitaka statement) is there > that says jhanacitta cannot take paramattha dhamma as object? This > notion is not definitively stated in the Sutta Pitaka as far as I > know (it isn't stated in the Patisambhidamagga). So is it stated in > the Abhidhamma Pitaka (of which I have no access at present time)? Or > is this a post canonical development of the Mahavihara commentators? N: Perhaps I could give an example. The Elements is also a meditation subject of samatha, but the aim is not: to know the elements as only paramattha dhammas devoid of self. The aim is: the elimination of clinging ot the elements. That is quite a different story. The earth kasina means: everything is earth, we cling to earth but it is only earth. Thus, when we think of the different aims it will be clearer what the object and the objective is of samatha and of vipassana. Nina. 44196 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is memory a mano-dhamma? nilovg hello Dmytro, op 10-04-2005 08:18 schreef oselok op nibbanka@...: > is memory about an impression of sight or sound, an object of mano, or > an object of corresponding sense doors? N: Mano is another word for citta, no matter it arises in a sense-door process, a mind-door process or it is process free. But I think that you mean: an object experienced through the mind-door. Memory or saññaa accompanies each citta. Otherwise you could not think about sight or sound later on, in a mind-door process. Thus, memory about sight or sound can arise in a mind-door process. Does this answer your question? If it is not clear, let me know, Nina. 44197 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:03am Subject: Dhamma Thread (315) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Just before death, there comes a race and it is the race of kamma. There are many many kamma in the whole samsara. Among them one of kamma comes out as a leading kamma when death is approaching. There are 3 possibilities for arising near death. These possibilities are 1. kamma 2. kamma nimitta 3. gati nimitta Here both kamma nimitta and gati nimitta may be the current object, or future object or the past object. (There may be some who would not agree with these. Once citta-A/Citta-B business dealt with these objects.) But when kamma is the main encounter, the object is the past object only. Because the kamma that arises near death is the shade of the old action and it is not that the being is committing at near death. So if kamma is the chief when dying, then marana-asanna-javana cittas take the object which is the past object. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44198 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma htootintnaing N: Perhaps I could give an example. The Elements is also a meditation > subject of samatha, but the aim is not: to know the elements as only > paramattha dhammas devoid of self. The aim is: the elimination of clinging > ot the elements. That is quite a different story. > The earth kasina means: everything is earth, we cling to earth but it is > only earth. > Thus, when we think of the different aims it will be clearer what the object > and the objective is of samatha and of vipassana. > Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Geoff, and All, Thanks NIna for your kind explanation. There is definitely some difference between 2 types of meditation. With respect, Htoo Naing 44199 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:29am Subject: Dhamma Thread (316) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Abhidhammatthasangaha: vithimuttasangaha; 93. 'Ruupaavacara patisandhiyaa pana panattibhuutam kammanimitta mevaarammanam hoti.' When a dying being is developing rupa jhana, then marana asanna javana will be jhana cittas. In that case all the object of such rupa jhanas are panatti or concepts or names. Ruupaavacara patisandhiyaa_ In rupa brahma rebirth Pannatti bhuutam _ pannatta becomes clearly the object. These pannatti are called 'kamma-nimitta'. Meva here is 'eva' and it means 'such' or 'such that'. 94. 'tathaa aruupa patisandhiyaa ca mahaggatabhuutam panattibhuutanca kammanimittameva yathaarahamaarammanam hoti.' Likewise, non-material rebirth have 2 different objects and they are 'mahaggatabhuutam' or 'mahaggata citta as object' and pannattibhuutanca_ pannatti object. So depending on which plane of arupa bhumi, the object will be mahaggata cittas or pannatti. 95.' asannasattaanam pana jiivita navaka meva patisandhi bhaavena patitthaati, tasamaa te ruupa patisandhikaa naam.' In consciousness-less beings or asannisatta brahmas, the rupa of jiivita navaka kalaapa serves as patisandhi. This is called rupa- patisandhi. There is no consciousness or no citta at all in these asannisatta brahma and this is true for their whole life as long as they are in that realm. Patisandhi or rebirth is rupa-patisandhi or material- rebirth and cuti is rupa-cuti or material-death. While they are living, they live with rupa-bhavanga and there is no citta at all. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44200 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is memory a mano-dhamma? jonoabb Hi Dmytro Welcome to the list from me. oselok wrote: >Let me ask a simple question: > >is memory about an impression of sight or sound, an object of mano, or >an object of corresponding sense doors? > > Your question is not such a simple one ;-)). As far as I know, the texts do not describe in detail what happens when there is the remembering of a previously experienced sense-door object. As I understand it, at such time there is no experience of the relevant sense-door object, there is simply the mental act of remembering a previous experience that was marked at the time. So the consciousness at the moment would be mind-door consciousness, with concept as its object. Is this how you would see it? Jon 44201 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:21am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi everyone, I appreciate your timely response to my queries, and respect your faith in and knowledge of the post Tipiaka commentarial interpretation of jhana, but none of you are presenting any explicit canonial statement regarding the use of learning sign, counerpart sign, etc., to attain 'fixed samadhi' wherein the object is a mental image of form and not the actual form -- visible form or tactile form for example. Just to clarify, when I say 'Tipitaka' and 'canon' I mean Vinaya Pitaka, Sutta Pitaka (but not the texts only included in Burmese edition), and the seven canonical texts of Abhidhamma Pitaka. And so my question still is: What's the canonical Tipitaka statement that explicitly validates and confirms that the object of jhanacitta is a counterpart sign (or whatever the commentators say it is), and not simply the visible form or tactile form. Also, what statement explicitly confirms that jhana is a state of 'fixed samadhi'? I am a faithful Dhamma practitioner myself, so please don't think I'm just trying to stir up trouble. I'd search the Abhidhamma texts myself, but I just recently purchased the Patisambhidamagga which cost over $100.00 Canadian funds with shipping, etc., and I simply can't afford to purchase the Dhammasangani and others at this time. I've joined this discussion group because the home page states: A discussion forum for anyone interested in understanding the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, the original record of the Buddha's word in the Theravada tradition.... And I'm interested in these three baskets of the Tipitaka right now, and not the commentaries, which I have some access to (Nina's teachings are available online, as are other teachings and some of the old commentaries themselves, for example), and so I'm specifically looking for canonical Tipitaka statements which support the commentarial methodology relating to jhana. Metta, Geoff 44202 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma lbidd2 Hi all, I'm wondering why tranquility isn't the object of jhana. It seems to be the goal of jhana. Jhana factors are dropped in order to experience greater tranquility. If vitakka and vicara is the projection of a concept, how is the nimitta sustained when vitakka and vicara cease? Larry 44203 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:55am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Ken H: > Do you, for example, realise that the texts say all dhammas, with > the exception of Nibbana, are anicca and dukkha, and all dhammas, > including Nibbana, are anatta? Yes, and this is where Buddhism oversteps its authority, IMO. When Buddhism goes beyond being a psychological technique for eliminating suffering and begins to claim that it describes "things as they really are," then it is making scientific statements. These statements are either purely speculative (e.g. karma) or based on the evidence of contemplative introspection, which is very unreliable, as I described here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43520 Cosmique: > In order to get the complete picture, anicca has to be > complemented by dukkha and, especially, anatta. > These three aspects make up "seeing > things as they really are". The thrust of this discussion so far has to do with the fact that Buddhism, whatever its value as a technique for finding happiness, is not a complete picture of the world. I disagree that seeing the world as anicca, dukkha and anatta is "seeing things as they really are." If you see the world as anicca, dukkha and anatta, then you are purposefully shifting your emphasis onto certain aspects of the world for the psychological effect of reducing clinging & suffering. If you wanted to truly "see things as they really are," you need to go beyond contemplative Dhamma practice. Matthew 44204 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:59pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma sunnaloka Hello Matthew, Good to see you're still at it. Guess you didn't buy the holistic approach. Anyway, I don't have much else to say regarding brain/consciousness debate, as I pretty much agree with Wilber's Integral Psychology, which is a hybrid of holism and Buddhist Madhyamika, and anything else I'd have to say on the matter would just be a reiteration of what he's written, and what I've already expressed here. But curiosity got the better of me again when I read: > I disagree that seeing the world as anicca [...]is > "seeing things as they really are." Does science have evidence that any conditioned phenomenon isn't anicca? Geoff 44205 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma jonoabb Geoff Since the role of the commentaries is to elaborate on what is in the suttas, there will not always be an 'explicit canonical statement' of the kind you seem to be looking for. However, there is usually a reference, such as the one given by Nina, on which the commentarial reference hangs its hat. I'd be interested to know the basis for the idea that the object of jhana citta is the actual visible object rather than an image of it (if that's what you're suggesting). Jon sunnaloka wrote: >Hi everyone, > >I appreciate your timely response to my queries, and respect your >faith in and knowledge of the post Tipiaka commentarial >interpretation of jhana, but none of you are presenting any explicit >canonial statement regarding the use of learning sign, counerpart >sign, etc., to attain 'fixed samadhi' wherein the object is a mental >image of form and not the actual form -- visible form or tactile form >for example. > > 44206 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:11pm Subject: Re: About rafts (Was: [dsg] Having no opinions jonoabb Hi Joop Joop wrote: >Jon: Nonetheless, to my understanding, the aim should be the >development of panna, rather than the absence of concepts/views. When >there is panna, there is no wrong conceptualising. In any event, is >there anything wrong with concepts per se? What would be the point of >having no concepts (if that were indeed possible) if there was no >developed insight? > >Joop: It's a matter of aims and means to that aim, to that end of >developping panna. I experience that trying to have no opinions, to >realize constantly that I'm conceptualizing, is a mean to that end >(if this method is according the 'texts' or not). > > If you're saying you've found a new means to the same end that the Buddha spoke about, then I'd have to say I'm sceptical ;-)) >Jon: Well, as long as you can keep your points related to the >Theravada tradition, we can discuss them. Perhaps you can use some >skilful means of discussion to do this ;-)) >… every list has it's declared scope, for obvious reasons. As long as >you can relate your comments to our group description, we can discuss >them. > >Joop: If you talk about the third of my proposed 'fields of >discussion (see under), that it's OK. When you say only the first and >second field, than my reaction is: that's not enough because on this >moment comparing Theravada and Mahayana is important to me. When I >state something and the reaction is: that's not so according the (in >fact: one) Theravada tradition, that's not inspiring enough. > > As I say, as long as you can relate your comments to the Theravada tradition, they won't be off-topic. Jon >Part of my proposal about the DSG-structure: > - More than one field of discussion. For example: > Discussions within the frame of reference of Abhidhamma - >Buddhaghosa - Sujin > Technical questions about that frame of reference > Discussions about but not totally within that frame of reference > Broader Buddhistic discussions > > 44207 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 jonoabb Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >Dear Jon, > >Thanks for your reply. If in walking, these movements of walking are >all cittaja ruupa and they have to be so. > >If the cittas are all jhanas, then these walking movements have to be >abhinna's output. Otherwise walking cannot be done by jhanas. Because >the object of jhana is separate and not the movement and intention to >move. > >As there are infinite moments, jhana cittas may arise in between. So >these jhanas are not in the form of jhana-samapatti or jhana- >attainment. > > My understanding is that moments of samatha bhavana (e.g., metta, karuna) can occur at any time, regardless of the present activity. When it comes to jhana, the same may apply if the jhana is of sufficiently developed strength (e.g., there is mastery). Jon >In Myanmar, once there was a novice. He went alm round to 3 >differtent villages. This happened for a long time. Only when 3 >villagers of 3 different villages met, they talked about the4 novice >and came to know that the novice was going alm round at the same time. > >With Metta, > >Htoo Naing 44208 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:23pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... Ken H: > Do you, for example, realise that the texts say all dhammas, with > the exception of Nibbana, are anicca and dukkha, and all dhammas, > including Nibbana, are anatta? Matt: Yes, and this is where Buddhism oversteps its authority, IMO. When Buddhism goes beyond being a psychological technique for eliminating suffering and begins to claim that it describes "things as they really are," then it is making scientific statements. These statements are either purely speculative (e.g. karma) or based on the evidence of contemplative introspection, which is very unreliable, as I described here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43520 --Evan That may be your opinion but it sounds to me that you are making it up as you go along. If Buddhism were just a psychology or philosophy, then it would fall way short of its stated objective. So no, it is way beyond that. Cosmique: > In order to get the complete picture, anicca has to be > complemented by dukkha and, especially, anatta. > These three aspects make up "seeing > things as they really are". Matt: The thrust of this discussion so far has to do with the fact that Buddhism, whatever its value as a technique for finding happiness, is not a complete picture of the world. I disagree that seeing the world as anicca, dukkha and anatta is "seeing things as they really are." If you see the world as anicca, dukkha and anatta, then you are purposefully shifting your emphasis onto certain aspects of the world for the psychological effect of reducing clinging & suffering. If you wanted to truly "see things as they really are," you need to go beyond contemplative Dhamma practice. Matthew --Evan Buddhism is NOT a technique for finding happiness. Happiness is a by-product of Buddhist practice. Happiness is NOT the stated objective of Buddhism. Comtemplation is NOT Dhamma practice. Contemplation alone will NOT lead one to "see things as they really are". Am I going to quote dhamma to support my statements? No. I don't have the time. What I will do is state that you and I can happily agree to disagree because I will not in this lifetime see things as you do. Kind Regards, Evan Stamatopoulos 44209 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:33pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... ------------------------------------------------ E: > (the first 3 you mention I also understood about jhana). ------------------------------------------------- Ken: I wonder why you left out the fourth - "the Bodhisatta proved that jhana did not lead to final release from Dukkha." I was simply referring to the historical account where Gotama took leave of his jhana instructors, convinced that they had not shown him Nibbana. Here's a quote from 'The Buddha and His Teachings' by Narada Maha Thera: "Still he felt that his quest for the highest truth was not achieved. He had gained complete mastery of his mind, but his ultimate goal was far ahead. He was seeking for the highest, the Nibbana, the complete cessation of suffering, the total extinction of all forms of craving. Dissatisfied with this doctrine too, he departed thence, content therewith no longer. "He realised that his spiritual aspirations were far higher than those under whom he chose to learn. He realised that there was none capable enough to teach him what he yearned for - the highest truth. He also realised that the highest truth is to be found within oneself and ceased to seek external aid." In order to support his opinions, Ajahn Brahmavamso had to show that the Buddha had not learnt jhana under his two former teachers. He relied on the fact that the Bodhisatta later remembered having attained jhana as a small child. I admit, that does suggest his teachers had taught him something else. But do other writers draw that conclusion? Naradha certainly didn't, nor do any others I can think of. If I had to take a wild guess, I would say it related to the fact that the Buddha was entirely self-taught. It was a little bit like instances in our own lives where we have heard an explanation and said, "Oh yes, that's true! I knew that. It just slipped my mind." :-) --Evan Ken, I agree that the jhanas alone are not going to lead to liberation, however, a mind that can attain the jhanas (esp up to 4th jhana) is sharp enough to start to notice and pick apart the veil of delusion. Without a mind of that power, delusion cannot be dispelled. Before you say that one can attain liberation with insight alone, I will also agree with you before you get the change to say it. However, on the path to increasing one's insight ability, the mind's power/ability/flexibility increases to that equivalent to jhana. So it's a similar sort of process with a different emphasis. --------------------------------------------------------- E: > As I see it though, it's ok for us to theorise and draw conclusions from suttas, abbhidamma and commentaries but when a bikkhu speaks from experience, one has to listen and re-evaluate ones position. ---------------------------------------------------------- I agree that every bhikkhu should be respected for his dedication, but there is no reason to believe his understanding has necessarily progressed further than our own. Besides, every meditation teacher (bhikkhu or not) seems to contradict every other mediation teacher in one way or another. Don't forget the story of 'the man, the boy and the donkey.' That ended in tragedy. :-) Ken H -- Evan Well, a Bhikkhu/Bhikkhuni who can attain at will the 4 lower jhanas would have so much more insight and "mind capability" that there is no way I could see myself making a comment that his/her understanding has necessarily progressed further than our own. Kind Regards, Evan 44210 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:52pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Welcome back, Geoff. I hope you enjoyed the retreat. Geoff: > Does science have evidence that any conditioned phenomenon isn't > anicca? No. Ultimately, all phenomena ("conditioned" or otherwise) are subject to entropy. Indeed, there is no evidence of *anything* unconditioned or deathless in nature. However, in my previous message in the thread, I pointed out that "permanence" and "impermanence" are relative terms. There are many characteristics of reality which, while impermanent on a geological or astronomical scale, still have relative permanence, at least from the narrow perspective of our human existence. See here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/44166 Geoff: > I pretty much agree with Wilber's > Integral Psychology, which is a hybrid > of holism and Buddhist Madhyamika Ken Wilber's philosophy is imaginative and he seems to practice what he preaches. To be honest, I find his vast, complex explanatory scheme fairly impenetrable. But ultimately it is a speculative construction, unfalsifiable and unverifiable. I read an interview with Wilber in John Horgan's book "Rational Mysticism." I must admit that I found his apparent pride in his own spiritual attainment a bit disturbing. Not even the Dalai Lama, Wilber said, could maintain self-awareness during sleep as he, Wilber, could. He struck me as a bit of a megalomaniac. Matthew BTW, I would recommend Horgan's book to everyone on this list who is interesting in challenging their own assumptions. You can find it here: http://tinyurl.com/4symg Here's an excerpt from Anthony Campbell's review of the book: "The question that lies at the heart of the book is: do these altered states of consciousness tell us anything about ourselves, the universe, or the Meaning of Life? There is no doubt that people often feel themselves to have been vouchsafed knowledge of this kind, and mystical or ecstatic experiences may affect the whole subsequent course of people's lives. But does this guarantee that the knowledge so gained is authentic? If it is, should we, as some Eastern religions advocate, devote our lives to seeking 'enlightenment', or would this be simply to mire ourselves ever more deeply in a bog of self- deception? "The answer that Horgan reaches at the end of his exploration is, essentially, a negative one. Mystical experience, no matter how compelling it feels at the time, does not provide us with assurance of immortality or rebirth or of our cosmic significance. It also -- and this seems to me to be important -- does not endow those who attain it with superior moral wisdom: some apparently enlightened individuals have behaved as badly as anyone else. You may find this either liberating or deeply depressing, depending on how you look at it." 44211 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:53pm Subject: Vism.XIV,151 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 151. (xxix) The act of resolving66 is 'resolution'. It has the characteristic of conviction. Its function is not to grope. It is manifested as decisiveness. Its proximate cause is a thing to be convinced about. It should be regarded as like a boundary-post owing to its immovableness with respect to the object. -------------------------- Note 66. ' "The act of resolving" should be understood as the act of being convinced (sanni.t.thaana) about an object, not as trusting (pasaadana)' (Pm.489). See par.140. 44212 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:00pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Evan: > Buddhism is NOT a technique for finding happiness. > Happiness is a by-product of Buddhist practice. > Happiness is NOT the stated objective > of Buddhism. Comtemplation is NOT Dhamma > practice. Contemplation alone > will NOT lead one to "see things as they really are". Am I going to > quote dhamma to support my statements? No. I don't have the time. Didn't the Buddha say that, just as the sea has but one flavor which is salty, so too his Dhamma has only one flavor -- liberation from suffering? Isn't the whole point of Buddhism the liberation from suffering? Matthew 44213 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:06pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... > Evan wrote: > In a talk given by Ajahn Brahmavamso, he relates a story of > one of his lay followers who went into meditation and > after hours was sent to hospital presumed dead. He was put > on an ECG and EEG and no signal could be > measured. > check out Ajahn Bramavamso's talk > http://www.buddhistfellowship.org/audio_downloads.htm Matt: Thanks for the link, Evan. I listened to the recording by Ajahn Brahmavamso. A very interesting anecdote. But, from a scientific point of view, that's all it is -- an anecdote. If someone were to reproduce what Brahmavamso claims occured (no EKG or EEG signal whatsoever, for hours) this would be an extraordinary discovery indeed. But as Carl Sagan used to say, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." I am very skeptical of Brahmavamso's story, and for a number of reasons. First of all, a voluminous amount of research has been done on meditation (you can find a large database of research here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/44099) Since the 1930s, scientists have been doing empirical studies of yoga and meditation. Many of the early researchers travelled throughout India with electro-encephalographs and accessory instruments to record respiration, skin temperature, skin conductance, and finger blood- volume changes in meditating yogis. There is a large amount of documentation of their findings, much of it summarized at the website above. Studies have confirmed that meditating yogis can produce remarkable changes in their autonomic functions. They can lower their EKG and pulse to very low levels. Amazing changes also occur in their EEG readings, including recurrent beta rhythms of 18-20 cycles per second. Similar studies have been done on practitioners in other traditions, including Japanese Zen, Tibetan Buddhism, TM and Theravadan Vipassana. However, none of these studies has ever documented a practitioner who was able to actually cease *all* of the electrical activity in the heart and/or brain. This would indeed be a miraculous feat since only a few minutes of oxygen deprivation is enough to do permanent brain damage. -- Evan No, that's not quite true. There have been studies published in scientific journals which, upon examination of people who have been pronounced clinically dead, have had out of body experiences and come back from them, the conclusion is that the mind exists beyond the electrical activity of the brain. Unfortunately I can't find the references at the moment but I will post them when I come across them again. Matt: I don't believe that the frantic emergency room described in Brahmavamso's story is a very reliable source of information. It should not be difficult to reproduce those events under more controlled conditions. But based on all the evidence we have from a great many other studies, I wouldn't hold my breath. Matthew P.S. With the advent of modern imaging techniques, such as PET and MRI, research on the physiology of meditation has gone way beyond mere EEG and brain waves. See this article for a summary: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43610 -- Evan OK, I read the paragraph describing the research on Baime. Unfortunately, the experiment performed was too primitive to produce any serious results. If Baime could move his finger during meditation to trigger the recording equipment, he was not in jhana. In jhana there is no body, no brain, no space and no time. So there will be no finger to move. Let me tell you what sort of experiment will convince me. You will need 2 extremely experience Buddhist monks preferably Theravadin. One will be wired up to and EEG and MRI machine and he will start to meditate to get into the jhanas one by one. The role of the other experienced monk is to tell the researchers when the monk enters jhana and what level of jhana the meditating monk is in. This will give conclusive evidence of what the brain is doing during "real" meditation. If you have links to that sort of research I would be VERY interested to read it. Kind Regards, Evan 44214 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:07pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings3 - Recollection of Death and other special reflections kelvin_lwin Hi Sarah, I think it's pretty clear what is meant and what should be done. Only remaining question to me is whether or not someone can do it. - kel > Even the first few lines in chapter 111 need a lot of discussion, > understanding and reflection, I think. How about you? 44215 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:08pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... .... :-)) Metta, Sarah p.s Evan, are you in Australia too?Y ======== Sarah, Yes, I live in Melbourne (just down the road from the BSV). Kind Regards, Evan 44216 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:10pm Subject: RE: [dsg] I am new and Learning Evan_Stamatopou... I don't know if anyone has suggested it yet, but I started my learning at: www.buddhanet.net Kind Regards, Evan 44217 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:12pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... > Ken, > > I > > http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/thejhanas.pdf > > Kind Regards, > > Evan >======== Dear Evan, wow, I just read the article. Surprisng that a Theravada monk would write something like this. Do you know him, maybe you can help him to drop his beliefs? Robertk Robert, He is in Western Australia which is about 3,000 km from where I live. I have heard him talk but I don't really know him. He is quite well known and is quite experienced. As for helping him to do anything, I would not presume. Kind Regards, Evan 44218 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Sarah kelvin_lwin Hi Sarah, > S: in short, I'm sticking to my story for now:-). I would not expect anything less. > S: references which make it clear that those with 2 roots cannot reach > enlightenment or attain jhanas. The rest we infer differently >according to our understanding. Yes that's what I'm told too. I don't infer anything, I just recite what I'm taught. > more specific references, we can just leave it open and agree we don't > know:-/. Apparently there isn't any conclusive references so I'll happily leave it at that also. - kel 44219 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:37pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... Matthew, Philip K. Dick was a schizophrenic science fiction writer. What "authority" does he have to define "reality" - although I do think it's not a bad attempt but not a very rigorous one. Kind Regards, Evan PS I checked the Oxford dictionary definition but as many dictionary definitions it was rather vague also hence why I haven't reproduced it here. Jon: > I suspect we are working from different definitions of 'reality'. > What's yours? I'm not so sure if it's wise to work from a pre-conceived definition of 'reality'. So I'll just offer Philip K. Dick's open-ended definition: "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick (American writer, 1928-1982) Matthew Miller 44220 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:46pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... Cosmique: > I hope you don't mind my butting in for a while. Butt away! Welcome onboard! > for an "enlightened child", whether his mommy is > perceived or not, she is anicca > (impermanent), dukkha (suffering), and anatta (not his mommy at > all!). > ... What matters is that they all have the above > three characteristics. Matthew: Buddhism is an art of happiness. It is concerned with reality only insofar as it helps people eliminate suffering and find true happiness. To this end, it uses various techniques, such as emphasizing the anicca aspects of the world. --Evan No! Buddhism is NOT an art of happiness (I have said this in another of my responses but I do want to make my point clear so, like the Buddha in the suttas, I will repeat myself). Happiness is a by-product of Buddhist practice. Matthew: However, seeing the world as anicca is not a complete picture of "the way things are," nor does it aspire to be. It is a psychological technique of shifting emphasis onto the impermanent aspects of life so that our minds do not cling to things and produce suffering. Of course, if we are trying to understand the world "as it really is", without the agenda of making people happy, we can see that the universe is indifferent to human interests. The universe itself is neither dukkha nor non-dukkha. Nor is it pure anicca; there are relative degrees of permanence in nature. What would pure impermanence be like? A kaleidoscopic, evanescent chaos? However, there are certain characteristics of reality which, while ultimately impermanent, still have relative permanence, at least from the narrow perspective of our human existence. The sun stays pretty much the same throughout our brief lives, as do the laws of physics, the DNA in our cells, as well as most of the important factors that shape our lives. Sure, we can choose to focus on the changing aspects of existence, if that makes us cling & suffer less, but we do so by ignoring the relatively unchanging aspects of the world. --Evan "Relative unchanging aspects"? I am used to more scientific and rigorous analysis that this from you Matthew. Surely something is either permanent or it is not - there is no relativity about it. Just because we view something from an extremely short lifespan it doesn't mean that changes do not occur, however slow. I know that is what you are saying here but I do feel that you are skirting around saying that all conditioned things are impermanent. If that is what you mean, then please say it. Cosmique: > for an "enlightened child", whether his mommy is > perceived or not, she is anicca > (impermanent), dukkha (suffering), and anatta (not his mommy at > all!). Matthew: An enlightened infant? Hmm. I'm not sure how useful it would be for a 3 month-old to see its mother as anicca and anatta. Indeed, in the womb, the world is arguably completely anicca and anatta. The development of a sense of permanence and self in childhood are crucial for survival. The Tibetan Buddhist Chogyam Trungpa once remarked that the philosophy of "no-self" should not be foisted on very small children. In childhood, he said, one should "jazz oneself up" (his words) and build a strong sense of self-esteem (atta). To do otherwise would cause maladaption and suffering. Matthew --Evan Kind Regards, Evan 44221 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma lbidd2 Hi Geoff, Regarding a sutta precedent for jhana nimitta see MN 121.5: "Further, Ananda, the monk -- not attending to the perception of human being, not attending to the perception of wilderness -- attends to the singleness based on the perception of earth. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of earth. Just as a bull's hide is stretched free from wrinkles with a hundred stakes, even so -- without attending to all the ridges & hollows, the river ravines, the tracts of stumps & thorns, the craggy irregularities of this earth -- he attends to the singleness based on the perception of earth. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of earth. "He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of human being are not present. Whatever disturbances would exist based on the perception of wilderness are not present. There is only this modicum of disturbance: the singleness based on the perception of earth.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of human being. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of wilderness. There is only this non-emptiness: the singleness based on the perception of earth.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure. L: In MN 77.24&25 kasina meditation and jhana seem to be different, and so, open to interpretation what this means. Larry http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn121.html 44222 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:53pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... Evan: > Buddhism is NOT a technique for finding happiness. > Happiness is a by-product of Buddhist practice. > Happiness is NOT the stated objective > of Buddhism. Comtemplation is NOT Dhamma > practice. Contemplation alone > will NOT lead one to "see things as they really are". Am I going to > quote dhamma to support my statements? No. I don't have the time. Matthew: Didn't the Buddha say that, just as the sea has but one flavor which is salty, so too his Dhamma has only one flavor -- liberation from suffering? Isn't the whole point of Buddhism the liberation from suffering? Matthew --Evan Matthew, Yes that is true, but happiness is not liberation. All I was saying is that the Buddha taught the path to liberation from suffering, not the path to happiness although happiness comes with liberation. Maybe I'm splitting hairs but I don't think that happiness and liberation are the same thing - they are related in that happiness is required for liberation. Kind Regards, Evan 44223 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:55pm Subject: Evan christine_forsy... Hello Evan, Glad to see another aussie; even Gum Suckers are welcome :-) Actually more than welcome ... this place is too top-heavy with Banana Benders. :-) [KenH, AndrewT, Azita, Steve, and I] onya, Chris 44224 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:00pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Evan Evan_Stamatopou... Hello Evan, Glad to see another aussie; even Gum Suckers are welcome :-) Actually more than welcome ... this place is too top-heavy with Banana Benders. :-) [KenH, AndrewT, Azita, Steve, and I] onya, Chris Hi Chris, Thanks for the welcome but you must excuse my ignorance on 2 terms you have used: Gum Suckers and Banana Benders. Could you "Please explain?" Kind Regards, Evan 44225 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Evan christine_forsy... Hello Evan, How can this be? An australian who doesn't know the terms for those living in other states? Whatever it is that's happening in Victoria is more serious than we thought ... :-) must be too much aerial ping-pong .. but I'm afraid to go on in case I get another please explain. :-) A thought ... have you lived in Australia all your life? metta, Chris from Queensland --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > > Hello Evan, > > Glad to see another aussie; even Gum Suckers are welcome :-) Actually > more than welcome ... this place is too top-heavy with Banana > Benders. :-) [KenH, AndrewT, Azita, Steve, and I] > > onya, > Chris > > Hi Chris, > > Thanks for the welcome but you must excuse my ignorance on 2 terms you > have used: Gum Suckers and Banana Benders. > > Could you "Please explain?" > > Kind Regards, > > Evan 44226 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:36pm Subject: Re: New view on satipatthana 1 lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > .... > S: We had a big laugh in Bkk last week when one friend was talking about > the metta he had for Jon when he was far, far away (as opposed to sitting > near him in a dhamma discussion:-)). The point was that metta is > friendliness or kindness, without it being any special person when we're > on the bus, in the same room, going to the store and so on. It's like > generosity – we can think about it in our bedroom, but what about the > actual sharing and giving when we have opportunities? (This doesn't mean > you can't have kind thoughts or metta even at other times on your own, but > whether on our own or with people, the near enemy of attachment is always > nearby, I think). Good simile. Metta was something that I felt I could generate for someone at any time. You bring up generosity. This is not something that I've had a good 'guide' on doing (as w/ metta), rather something I can perform outright, or, on the other end, try to cultivate by reducing my greed. And when I say perform outright, I mean doing it because of knowing its benefits, such as giving some gift(s) to the Sangha, or letting someone step in line before me, which are easy to do, but to counter my greedy character I know I can't just 'think' about generosity in my free time and have it work any better. I really have the same view of metta now one year later, where it's been so long that I think reciting phrases in my mind over & over would just be tiring, so I'd want a clean start. However, I have recently, had compassion for someone spontaneously by identifying with his suffering. This is something I could try to extend on and improve from. If I get you right, indeed attachment is always at the fore, but at least from my experience, if we get some love going, it takes on a life of its own. If anyone knows something similar about generosity, or even renunciation, please share. [Deliberate, intentional, and directed practise] > S: This is not how I understand the passages. See my last message > (Musings3). Noted your points, but I'll refer you to Kel's post from Friday, and offer the four foundations of mindfulness as additional examples on how even non-aryans may follow instructions to practise on. Indeed, how else would they be aryans if they had not developed concentration? I think such following of instructions are motivated by > clinging to Self – trying to have metta, repulsiveness for the body and so > on, rather than understanding what is conditioned at this very moment of > trying so hard. Well, then maybe this breaks from the 'trying to understand a dhamma at this very moment' purpose for a bit. But I've certainly had success with a method of trying to really feel a person's personality and situation and generate metta based on that. You couldn't get me to think twice about its efficacy. So perhaps we can use a little of both methods, not be so strict with 'one dhamma in the present moment.' Like I think of how my practise on the path should be, and I see myself practising the four foundations of mindfulness, as I have said before, being mindful in the present moment, yet also taking some time aside to generate metta or karuna for beings near or far. Now with my recent experience with karuna I'd say it's possible to have it arise without any 'trying' but it is also possible for it to arise with deliberate methods. I even have a book, "The Four Sublime States," by Nyanaponika Thera, and have done similar 'metta-creation' work before. > ..... > > I brought up the additional example of having read a PDF where the > > instructor recommended one find > > a characteristic or manifestation of each element in a specific part of > > the body, say, the mouth, and go > > on to try to detect similar qualities throughout the body to eventually > > be mindful of the elements > > throughuot the entire body. This, too, is sort of done by a person > > intentionally, a deliberate practise. > > However this is not just waiting for conditions to come up. > ... > S: As you point out, this is `done by a person intentionally'. It is not > the understanding of elements as anatta, as conditioned dhammas. Awareness > and understanding have to develop with detachment, not selection. > .... Would reference the above text but not sure what we are trying to identify dhammas *as* in the four elements reflection. As they are, I suppose, but towards what end specifically, I cannot be sure. Insight-knowledges? Access concentration? Come to think of it, if we do this specific practise deliberately, we will come to have less of a self-view of ourselves at all, not just in the exact moment. So again, some 'time out' from understanding each present dhamma as anatta and so forth, might be called for here. > .... > S: When it's something `we must deliberately do', it's not understanding > in daily life. Did you read the discussion between Ken H and Htoo on this > topic? It was very good. Being aware of realities appearing now is not the > same as having a special practice as you describe. No self can be aware Sarah, I haven't read your posts, I'm a bit overflooded here as a matter of fact, but again, what is the ultimate aim of practise? If we can have a worthy goal in mind and our volition and other faculties can work towards deliberate practise perhaps, even, developing awareness, we can come to a still greater view of non-self. This is what the Buddha wants us to acheive with the reflection on the four great elements, I believe. Or at least one of the aims as I've read it. I guess I shouldn't say as I don't know the ultimate aim specifically had in mind for this practise, even more response from Bhikkhu Bodhi would help me formulate some ideas there. > and if there's any trying to be aware, the reality is attachment, not > awareness. Well I guess this brings us back to our fundamental stands on what awareness and mindfulness are. Again, I'll bring up the examples of having non-conceptual awareness developed for both inside and outself of this body by seated breathing meditation, and, of mindful awareness pervading nearly every spot in all directions in a single room, the apparent cause only being reading that mindful awareness is part of the gradual training and trying to act in accordance with it. (Explicitly, mindfulness was gained first, sort of making everything feel more real, and awareness pervaded the room later when I was seated at a desk). Soo we've got a little work to do in this department, I think. > .... > > I have given you the example of sati, of how I have established > > mindfulness of the entire body, which > > transfers over to mindfulness in sitting meditation. Nina proposes to > > counter ignorance or aversion we > > need mindfulness. Again, what do you see this mindfulness as. > .... > S: What you describe as mindfulness, I see as a special focusing. The > mindfulness which counters ingnorance or aversion is not any focusing, but > the momentary awareness which arises, is aware of any dhamma appearing > (without any selection) and falls away immediately. If there is a wish or > intention for it to arise or be aware of a particular object such as > sensations in the body, this will be a hindrance, as I see it. And here we are. Please describe your concept of mindfulness in greater detail. Ie its causes, characteristics, its scope, maybe we can get somewhere. > .... > S: the four foundations are the proximate cause: hardness, softness, heat, > cold, feeling, anger, attachment, seeing, visible object – these are > examples of dhammas included in the four foundations. Without the arising > of such dhammas, mindfulness cannot be mindful when one appears (i.e is > the object of the javana cittas). It's impossible for mindfulness or any > other dhamma to be `aroused intentionally' except in our imaginations. Well aren't all dhammas 'arising' and passing each moment? When you say knowing the arising and passing of a dhamma isn't it only meant 'each one as it arises to'.. say attention? Or a specific citta? Couldn't you see it being "aroused intentionally" by a specific method that is more than just the element of "wishing for"? > .... > >Please forgive me > > if I addressed this in one of > > the other two posts on this thread, I just feel it's an essesntial > > point. If you can, please go back to > > where I described this originally and think about it. We should be able > > to reconcile these two views, > > don't you think? > ... > S: I agree it is THE essential point. Whilst we continue to think that > dhammas can be controlled or that there is a self to do this, there won't > be any awareness of namas and rupas as elements. I don't honestly think > there is any reconciliation between the ideas of following a manual to be > aware of particular objects (often not even dhammas) in order and > understanding what satipatthana really means. Well, vipassana meditation has helped me realize less 'control' of things is to be had and I would still say certain processes in all their non-selfness can be called upon and aroused while before all self-belief is eradicated. And what can I say Sarah, about following a manual or instruction. I have all my experience backing this up. I have generated a mile's worth of harmlessness, metta for large numbers of people, some sort of mindfulness or awareness for entire sets of reality appearing to me as they happen, mindfulness of the qualities of my mind (which the Buddha even praises-- see Maha-mangala sutta), and large amounts of awareness, still with some self-belief. In fact as I see it the way to eradicate self-belief all together is just by following this course of practise. > <....> > > Right but can't we endeavor to learn about different realities by way of > > thinking ourselves into learning > > about them, say, by reading about the characteristics of dosa, moha, and > > lobha, in > > Nina's 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life?' > .... > S: It's helpful, very helpful, to read and reflect on different realities > as you're doing. I'm not exactly sure of your Qu, but if you're wondering > if we can think ourselves into being aware of dhammas, then the answer is > no. We can read and consider in order to understand dhammas as anatta > better, but not specially try to experience what we read about. Sure we can think ourselves through things. You had to think to pay for CMA didn't you? Similarly we can start with thinking and get ourselves to a point where we can be more aware and so on. But then again I don't want to touch on where we talk about self-belief-motivated practise eventually eliminating belief of self. Did we ever settle that? Looks like this is becoming a big stumbling block. > .... > > I'm with you for non-conceptual awareness, but would you believe me if a > > noble one told me to > > note 'aversion, aversion' where it appears? > .... > S: I would say, be wary of any advice in the name of `a noble one'. See my > Musings2 post. Noting `aversion, aversion' where it appears is not the > development of satipatthana as I understand. Andrew, please don't be > misled by what you've heard about others' attainments. Well no one told me he's a noble one but he certainly seemed to act in a way completely in accord with dhamma (righteous conduct) and made a sensible statement before that about the dhamma. I guess I just assumed. But even if he's not arya, isn't it good to see a True Man, as they're called in the suttas? His point seems to be OK. I brought up the example of waiting for the bus that morning and having the sun make me want to walk away and this is what he told me to do. Isn't anger/annoyance and so on just aversion? Recognizing it as such seems fine to me, I guess you could say calling it something isn't recognizing it, but it's better to label it and act equanimiously than letting it go unknown and influence me to do something rooted in aversion, don't you think? No- Soul, Andrew 44227 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:56pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Evan: > No, that's not quite true. There have been studies published in > scientific journals which, upon examination of people who have been > pronounced clinically dead, have had out of body experiences > and come > back from them, the conclusion is that the mind exists beyond the > electrical activity of the brain. Unfortunately I can't find the > references at the moment but I will post them when I come across > them > again. I recommend that you take a look at Susan Blackmore's "Dying to Live: Near Death Experiences": http://tinyurl.com/56muw In this well-documented and well-researched book, Blackmore takes a comprehensive and critical look at all of the supposed evidence for near-death out-of-body experiences and demonstrates how there is nothing to suggest that these are anything other than neurological phenomena. Matthew 44228 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:09pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Evan: > Yes that is true, but happiness is not liberation. > All I was saying is > that the Buddha taught the path to liberation > from suffering, not the > path to happiness although happiness comes > with liberation. Maybe I'm > splitting hairs but I don't think that > happiness and liberation are the > same thing - they are related in that > happiness is required for > liberation. Yes, I think that this is just fussing over semantics. It was the Dalai Lama who defined Buddhism as an "Art of Happiness." Whether you agree or disagree depends on how you define happiness, I suppose. Matthew 44229 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:10pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma kenhowardau Hi Matthew, We were talking about all conditioned dhammas' being anicca and dukkha; and all dhammas' being anatta. You wrote: ------------------------ M: > Yes, and this is where Buddhism oversteps its authority, IMO. When Buddhism goes beyond being a psychological technique for eliminating suffering and begins to claim that it describes "things as they really are," then it is making scientific statements. ------------------------- I can't help agreeing to some extent. For example, if I want to understand the physics and the chemistry of the sun, moon and planets, I wouldn't look to the Pali Canon. But no answers that I obtain from conventional science can possibly affect the Dhamma in any way. For example, when science proved that matter was ultimately quarks, strings and gluons that had absolutely no bearing on the Buddha's explanation of rupa. Someone might ask, was the Buddha aware of quarks, strings and gluons? I think the answer would be, "No," because no one ever asked him. If he had been asked, he could have turned his mind to the question and immediately answered, "They are concepts that will be known to certain physical sciences of the twentieth century." But no one asked those scientific questions, and he didn't make those scientific statements because they have absolutely no bearing on the Dhamma. Quarks, strings, and gluons - along with all other objects known to the conventional sciences - are not dhammas: they have none of the ti-lakkhana (anicca, dukkha and anatta). If our civilisation can survive long enough, new sub-atomic objects will be discovered, but they too will not be dhammas. --------------------------------- M: > These statements are either purely speculative (e.g. karma) or based on the evidence of contemplative introspection, which is very unreliable, as I described here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43520 --------------------------------- I have read that message. Firstly, it assumes that a scientist's view of the Dhamma is different to that of a non-scientist. That is incorrect - a scientist can be just as good a Buddhist as anyone can. It is not a matter of suspending "better (scientific) judgement" because the Dhamma deals with realities beyond the field of conventional knowledge. Secondly, you wrongly represented the Abhidhamma as saying that "introspective access to one's mental states cannot be erroneous or, at least, that it overrides all other evidence." That is so foreign to my understanding of the Abhidhamma that I hardly know how to relate to it. Our ideas of (introspective access to) nama and rupa are so erroneous as to be laughable. That is why we are called uninstructed worldlings - run-of-the-mill, ordinary, many- folk. --------------------------------------- M: > The thrust of this discussion so far has to do with the fact that Buddhism, whatever its value as a technique for finding happiness, is not a complete picture of the world. I disagree that seeing the world as anicca, dukkha and anatta is "seeing things as they really are." ------------------------------------------------------------- I think I understand your point, and the answer is simple (although many modern-day Buddhists reject it): the world as we know it is neither anicca, dukkha nor anatta. You wrote to Cosmique in your previous post about a child seeing its mother as anicca, and about the sun's having a degree of permanence. You were right to query concepts of anicca in those instances because they are not what the Buddha taught and they are wrong. As I keep saying, conceptual objects are not dhammas, and so they are neither anicca, dukkha nor anatta. ----------------------- M: > If you see the world as anicca, dukkha and anatta, then you are purposefully shifting your emphasis onto certain aspects of the world for the psychological effect of reducing clinging & suffering. ----------------------- I can't argue with that. Modern-day Buddhism, religious mumbo jumbo and New Age therapies all involve psychological techniques for reducing clinging and suffering. Let's not confuse any of those things with the Dhamma that is found in the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries. ---------------------------------------- M: > If you wanted to truly "see things as they really are," you need to go beyond contemplative Dhamma practice. --------------------------------------- We agree, but for different reasons. Ken H 44230 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:50pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Evan Evan_Stamatopou... Hello Evan, How can this be? An australian who doesn't know the terms for those living in other states? Whatever it is that's happening in Victoria is more serious than we thought ... :-) must be too much aerial ping-pong .. but I'm afraid to go on in case I get another please explain. :-) A thought ... have you lived in Australia all your life? metta, Chris from Queensland Chris, Yes, I have lived in Australia all my life but haven't heard those terms before. I have only recently heard some terms like "Flat out like a lizard drinking water" which I use all the time now. So I assume that banana benders are from Qld but the other term must refer to Vics? Kind Regards, Evan 44231 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:53pm Subject: Re: Oh! Relly! ...Khun Bundit sukinderpal Dear Khun Bundit, Sawadee Krap and welcome to DSG. Are you living in Thailand, Bangkok? Some of us get together to discuss Dhamma every Saturday. I would be glad if you will find the time to join us sometime. We usually do it in English, but often we mix Thai in too. So even if you're English is not very good, this is not a problem. :-) You can contact me on my mobile if you wish. The no. is 01 8254012. Metta, Sukin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "budnewsweb" wrote: > > > > > > > mai dai ... nit noi ... di-chun yak rian pa sa thai. > > > > Some people on this List speak Thai. They are: Jon, Mom Betty, > > Sukin, Azita, RobK, Matt R, Num, Kom and others. I hope they will > > write and introduce themselves. > > > > Please see: > > http://www.dhammahome.com/index.php?lang=0 > > > > metta, > > Chris > > > thank you to all. > > and your matta ,too. 44232 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 10:55pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 163- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (m) sarahprocterabb... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] As we read in the definition of the Visuddhimagga, the proximate cause of viriya is “a sense of urgency or grounds for the initiation of energy”. Birth, old age and death can remind us of the urgency to develop right understanding which eventually will lead to freedom from the cycle of birth and death. When we are “urged” to be mindful of realities, there is no self who makes an effort to be mindful. Right effort which is a reality arising because of its own conditions strengthens and supports the citta with mindfulness. There is energy, courage and perseverance to develop the eightfold Path since this is the only way leading to the end of dukkha. The Visuddhimagga and the Atthasåliní, when they mention that the proximate cause of viriya is a sense of urgency, quote the words, “bestirred, he strives wisely”, from a sutta of the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Fours, Chapter XII, §3, The Goad). In this sutta we read about four kinds of horses. One horse is already stirred to activity when he sees the shadow of the goadstick, whereas another one is not stirred by that, but is only stirred when his coat is pricked by the goad. Another one is stirred only when his flesh is pierced by the goad. We read about the fourth kind of horse: * "Once more, monks, we may have a goodly thorough-bred steed, which is stirred, feels agitation neither at the sight of the goadstick nor when his coat is pricked, nor yet when his flesh is pierced with the goadstick; but when he is pierced to the very bone he is stirred…" ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44233 From: cosmique Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma cosmique1000 Hi all, Matthew Miller wrote: +++++I disagree that seeing the world as anicca, dukkha and anatta is "seeing things as they really are." If you see the world as anicca, dukkha and anatta, then you are purposefully shifting your emphasis onto certain aspects of the world for the psychological effect of reducing clinging & suffering. If you wanted to truly "see things as they really are," you need to go beyond contemplative Dhamma practice.++++++++++ To me Buddha is more of a psychiatrist rather than (meta-) physician. If a patient comes to a psychiatrist complaining that he suffers from depression, anger, neurosis, etc., the doctor will give him an appropriate method to relieve his mental pain. If the patient begin to persistently ask the doctor about the matter make-up, electrons, protons, or who created the world, or whether this world is eternal or not, the doctor will send the patient to a chemist or physicist, or astronomer, or a witch doctor. If the psychologist begins to speculate in an attempt to answer his patient’s numerous questions, he will get beyond his professional scope. And his reasoning might develop into a set of beliefs, or superstitions about this and that. Buddha said that he knew a lot of things about the world, but he revealed only what was beneficial for the cessation of suffering. When Buddhism tries to explain what is beyond its original purpose it takes risk to become a religious system like Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, etc. whose doctrines are not always in harmony with the science. This being the case, Buddha Dhamma might loose its universal applicability and relevance for all times end epochs. If we read numerous volumes of In Buddhist literature as to the nature of the Universe, science, etc., we may find a lot funny and naive things (not taught by Buddha, by the way) that no one will accept today. Does it mean that Buddhism is wrong? Absolutely not! As a technique, as a vision that relieves sufferings and brings mental peace, it is right and effective for all places and times. Even if we assume that there are ugly green-faced aliens living somewhere out there, they will find the Dhamma relevant too because suffering is universal, but metaphysics varies from system to system, from place to place. Every new scientific discovery in the future might wipe away a metaphysical or religious view widely accepted today. It does not threaten Buddhism at all, if it clings to its original task set forth by Gotama, that is, teaching suffering and cessation of suffering without metaphysics. Take for example, Christianity. Fundamentalists try their utmost to prove that the Earth was created 6000 years ago (!) and all this kind of stuff. Is there any serious scientist who believes in this theory? But why do they fight for this theory? Because their religion claims to have all answers as to astronomy, physics chemistry, history, etc. And if the modern science proves that at least one of the their theories is wrong, the whole building of their faith is going to collapse and the Bible will become just a good book of Jewish folklore. However, the core of the Buddha dhamma is akalika, beyond time, i.e. it is applicable for all times no matter what scientific discoveries were, are, or will be. Metta, Cosmique The heaviness of one's burden is due to one's grasping. 44234 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:56pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma buddhatrue Hi Matthew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Miller" wrote: > I recommend that you take a look at Susan Blackmore's "Dying to Live: > Near Death Experiences": > > http://tinyurl.com/56muw > > In this well-documented and well-researched book, Blackmore takes a > comprehensive and critical look at all of the supposed evidence for > near-death out-of-body experiences and demonstrates how there is > nothing to suggest that these are anything other than neurological > phenomena. > > Matthew I haven't read this book by Susan Blackmore but I did some Internet research on her background. After having an out-of-body experience she began a thirty year career as a parapsychologist, studying everything strange and bizarre. Finally, after being fed up with "having an open mind" about everything, as she explains, she decides to go to the other extreme to prove that there isn't anything going on beyond the physical brain: http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/ http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/journalism/NS2000.html Now, she is doing research into consciousness and, it appears to me, that she is drawing conclusions about consciousness with the mistaken notion that there is an abiding self: http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/jcs02.htm In other words, I do not believe that she is a credible, scientific source for your contentions. Her viewpoint is biased by personal frustrations and disappointments; additionally, she lacks an extensive background in scientific research . Do you happen to have any other sources for your contention? BTW, the near death experience is when the consciousness is going to be re-established in another loka (realm) but the body doesn't die after all so the consciousness isn't re-established. People who have near death experiences report experiencing heavenly realms and hellish realms, according to their kamma. Perhaps you might like to read this article about the 31 Planes of Existence: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/allexistence.pdf Metta, James 44235 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 0:20am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... James, That is an excellent document on the 31 planes of existence which I read early on in my Buddhist path. Well recommended! Kind Regards, Evan James: Perhaps you might like to read this article about the 31 Planes of Existence: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/allexistence.pdf Metta, James 44236 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:34am Subject: Musings5 - Burning sarahprocterabb... Dear Nina, Htoo, Chris & All, (This series of ‘Musings’ are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) *** In Musings4 I referred to discussions on the development of calm and concentration. Many times on DSG we’ve all discussed in detail the two meanings of jhana*.I found it useful to discuss these in more detail. In particular I was interested to know whether they referred to any moments of samatha and vipassana bhavana (mental development). Jhana is derived from jhayati,(Sk dhyana). Often we read jhayati or jhayatha (below) translated as ‘meditate’, such as in the Sallekhasutta, MN8, which we discussed with Jim’s Pali expertise a long time ago. The Buddha said to Cunda: ”There are these roots of trees, these empty huts. Meditate, Cunda, do not delay or else you will regret it later. This is our instruction to you.” (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl). The two meanings of jhana refer to arammanupanijjhana, referring to moments of samatha development and lakkhanupanijjhana, referring to the development of satipatthana. K.Sujin stressed that jhana means ‘burning’ in both instances. Both kinds of jhana are included in the quote above and elsewhere(see below*) When we refer to arammanupanijjhana, the burning aspect refers to the (wholesome) concentrating on the object in the development of samatha. ‘Jhana’ here refers to the very beginning of samatha development up to appana samadhi (absorption). At such moments, the defilements are ‘burnt’ away. When we refer to lakkhanupanijjhana, there is the burning of unwholesome states at any moment of satipatthana by knowing the lakkhana (characteristic) of reality. When there is right understanding, unwholesome cittas cannot arise. It continues to ‘burn’ until all defeilements are completely burnt away. For either kind of bhavana (mental development/meditation), there is ‘burning’ from the very beginning. Without burning from the start, it’s impossible that jhanas or supramundane states can be attained. So when we are urged to 'meditate' or develop wholesome states, we are being urged to see the value and urgency of samatha and satipatthana development at this very moment with right understanding, not with any idea of a self that can bring about such development. Some may question whether ordinary moments of wholesome cittas, such as moments of metta or generosity can be referred to as jhana or ‘burning’. Without any development (i.e without wisdom of samatha or vipassana accompanying such states), we cannot really refer to them as burning, as I understand, but it was suggested that we do not need to think about this aspect. We also discussed how we all make mistakes according to our very limited knowledge and this can make us humble. (to be contd). Metta, Sarah *Some of the previous posts on the two meanings of jhana can be found under ‘Jhana -2 meanings’ and ‘Meditation in the Texts’ in Useful Posts. Here is an extract from one of Nina’s: * >We read in the ³Discourse on Expunging²(M. I, no 8, Sallekhasutta) that the Buddha said to Cunda: ³These, Cunda, are the roots of trees, these are empty places. Meditate, Cunda; do not be slothful; be not remorseful later. This is our instruction to you.² In Pali the word ³jhåyathå² is used, that can be translated as contemplate. The Commentary to this sutta, the ³Papañcasúdaní², explains that there are two meanings of jhåna: contemplation on the thirtyeight objects of samatha (aramma.núpanijjhåna), and contemplation on the characteristics (lakkhaùúpanijjhåna), beginning with impermanence, with reference to the khandhas, the sense-fields (åyatanas) and so on. The Commentary states: ³It is said, develop samatha and vipassanå. Do not be slothful; be not remorseful later.² And here is the Pali about the objects of meditation: Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8): Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi (thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca aniccaadito (beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini upanijjhaayatha. Samatha~n ca vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati maapamajjittha(do not be neglectful).< ============================================= 44237 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings3 - Recollection of Death and other special reflections sarahprocterabb... Hi Htoo, Azita* --- htootintnaing wrote: S:> So the purpose is not to specially concentrate, but to understand any > dhammas appearing in daily life. Attachment and calm are dhammas that > need to be clearly distinguished. We also discussed the differences > between the development of concentration and calm. (to be contd). .... H:> I think there is needed to penetrate conventional things. Ultimate > things cannot voice itself. But through conventional things. > > I know 'someone is going to a forest and sit under a tree with > crossed > leg with erect body and trying to develop sati and panna'. .... S: I'm sorry but I can't understand your comments here. Pls elaborate. Metta, Sarah p.s Htoo, Slowly catching up with your many good posts in the DT series. A good summary of the series to date in #44074. (Other comments later). #43901 was also a good one you wrote for those interested in science and for those new to the Abhidhamma. I'm just reminded by a comment Htoo made about the new yahoo. *All - The search function on the list homepage works much better now, I think. If, like Azita, you have periods when you don't read mail, you can opt for the summary of posts, key in your name on return, and you may be surprised to see how often it popped up in your absence:-). I just tried it for 'Azita' and also 'spiral', Howard's favourite. Also, click on 'date' in messages if you haven't worked out that this is the way to reverse the date order. ======= 44238 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 sarahprocterabb... Hi Carl, --- Carl wrote: > > C: Yes, I agree, even when you say "(i.e just at the present moment > ever)". :-) How could it be otherwise?. Do you feel that so > called "sitting vipassana meditation, or perhaps so called "formal > vipassana meditation" is not at the present moment? .... S: The present moment is right now. So, now what is the present dhamma or reality? Can any other reality be known? Right now, we're not engaged in what you refer to as "sitting vipassana meditation, or "formal vipassana meditation", so this has no bearing right now on any awareness of present dhammas, wouldn't you agree. Let's stick to a discussion of the constituents of 'life' right now. Can we agree that these are merely passing namas and rupas? Can we agree that vipassana meditation can only refer to the direct understanding of any of these namas and rupas which are apparent now? ... > C: <...> > I see no difference in potential between the non-sitters "vipassana > practise" and that of the sitters "vipassana practise". All the > same. No need to spin words. > I wonder if you would say the word "practise" has two different > meanings here? ... S: I think that "vipassana practise" refers to the momentary development of understanding of dhammas and that it can only develop when there is a clear theoretical basic knowledge of what such dhammas are. It is immaterial whether we're sitting, standing, walking, posting or anything else. If there's any idea of any of these activities being more or less 'suitable' for "vipassana practise", it's likely to be a hindrance. Are we on the same page now? Metta, Sarah ========= 44239 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 sarahprocterabb... Hi Htoo, I had a couple more comments to add on our old thread but ran out of time before my trip. I apologise for the delay- you've probably forgotten about it by now:-/ --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo's old post:> No one will say 'that child is doing daana or siila > or bhavanaa when he is reading or learning'. > ... > S: probably not, but maybe. He may be studying to make his mother or > teacher happy. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: No. Pleasing behaviour to his teacher or his mother is initial > javana cittas just before he is sinking in reading. It will be > akusala if it is lobha loaded or dosa loaded. What I used as simile > was that he is 'purely reading or learning'. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: We may just be quibbling over words her, but what I was wishing to stress was that in any activity, whether 'reading', 'learning', 'walking' or 'swimming' even, the cittas change rapidly as you know. Mostly the javanas will be akusala as we both agree now, I think, but even when intent on one's study or swimming strokes, there may be momentary wise reflections or kind thoughts for example. We can generalise, but in truth we can only learn to know our own cittas at any time. ... ***** > Sarah: > > He may be refraining from bad deeds or speech. He may be > helping his friend. > ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > No. This example shifts to others. Reading is not related with > refraining from bad deeds or speech. If you do not agree then please > consult '3 virati cetasikas' again. They are 'aniyata yogi cetasikas'. ... S: No one has suggested anything about the 3 virati arising together in this context. Even whilst reading, the vithi (processes of cittas) change rapidly. I do a lot of work with teenagers and I assure you that even whilst reading, there can be plenty of bad deeds, speech and occasionally refrainging from such activities or helping a friend:-) .... > 3 virati cetasikas are 'aniyata yogi cetasikas'. They do not co-arise > unless co-arising citta is lokuttara citta. > > So the boy will not have any of virati when he is reading or learning. .... S: There's no question about the 3 virati as you write. I can't understand how it follows that the poor boy 'will not have any of virati when he is reading or learning'. Why not? How about if he's reading out loud and tempted to harshly shout out the words in anger, but abstains and speaks quietly instead? How about if he's tempted to take his sister's computer, but abstains again? Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes. ***** ... H:> > > He is not doing daana, siila, bhavana. So what will you say? > > > Again he is not killing, stealing, sexing, lying, intoxicating. > > > Does he do any akusala? What will you say? > ... > S: Akusala doesn't have to be concerned with one of the above. > .... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I know. But for simplicity I wrote those things because they > are kamma patha. :-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Yes, but we can't say that just because it isn't akusala kamma patha, that it must be kusala:-/ I don't think this is 'simplicity :-). .... ***** <...> > Htoo: I know. There are 9 causes of dosa. But even in the absence of > cause dosa can arise. Actually I was talking on 'the boy's reading or > learning'. His reading is not dosa. And not lobha if it is a simple > wish to learn. ... S: Most likely it is lobha:-). ... Htoo:> When there is no lobha, no dosa and there is no vicikiccha then the > only akusala citta will be uddhacca. When he is concentrating on > reading or learning there is no uddhacca. ... S: Again, I disagree. Uddhacca (restlessness) arises with every akusala citta as you know and it can be very subtle. When there is the slightest excitement in what we are reading or when we feel enthusiastic about the subject, usually it's attachment with uddhacca, though this is usually considered a 'positive' characteristic. As I wrote in one of the Musings, usually any strong concentration is akusala. It's not calm at such moments. Metta, Sarah ======== 44240 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:23am Subject: Awareness of What? bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Awareness of What?: The Four Frame of Reference: Understand and be continuously quite aware of exactly that: Any Body is just a frame of changing forms on loan, whether internal or external, past, present or future, fine or foul.. Comprehend and be firmly mindful and quite aware of that: Any Feeling is merely a momentary affective response, whether own or other, past, present or future, pleasant or painful.. Realize and be continually attentive and quite aware of that: Any Mentality of Mind is only a cacophony of passing moods, whether glad or sad, past, present or future, subtle or gross.. Know & be constantly remembering and quite aware of that: Any Phenomena are simply constructed & transient mental states, whether internal or external, past, present or future, fine or foul.. Friendship is the Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka 44241 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Evan christine_forsy... Hello Evan, I can see that there will have to be some serious tutoring supplied from the Queensland Mob. :-) Queenslanders are Banana Benders - and some tasteless persons also call them Cane Toads; Victorians are Gum Suckers; and those from New South Wales are called Cockroaches (and worse, depending on who is winning the Rugby League State of Origin matches). Actually anyone south of Queensland may, on occasion, be called a Mexican. A person living in South Australia is called a Crow Eater - (even one of our moderators is a C-E); someone living in Western Australia is called a Sand Groper, those living in the Northern Territory are Top-enders; and someone from Tasmania is called a Taswegian or an Apple-eater. Note for Mods .... required Dhamma content ..... :-) For all Banana Benders, Cockroaches, Cane Toads, Gum Suckers, Mexicans, Crow-eaters, Sand Gropers, Top-enders, Taswegians and Apple-eaters: "Think: Happy, at rest, may all beings be happy at heart. Whatever beings there may be, weak or strong, without exception, long, large, middling, short, subtle, blatant, seen & unseen, near & far, born & seeking birth: May all beings be happy at heart." Sutta Nipata I.8 metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > > Hello Evan, > > How can this be? An australian who doesn't know the terms for those > living in other states? Whatever it is that's happening in Victoria > is more serious than we thought ... :-) must be too much aerial > ping-pong .. but I'm afraid to go on in case I get another please > explain. :-) A thought ... have you lived in Australia all your > life? > > metta, > Chris from Queensland > > Chris, > > Yes, I have lived in Australia all my life but haven't heard those terms > before. I have only recently heard some terms like "Flat out like a > lizard drinking water" which I use all the time now. So I assume that > banana benders are from Qld but the other term must refer to Vics? > > Kind Regards, > > Evan > 44242 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:21am Subject: Re: Musings5 - Burning christine_forsy... Hello Sarah, and all, "But, after all, brains are not the best things in the world." "Have you any?" inquired the Scarecrow. "No, my head is quite empty," answered the Woodman. "But once I had brains, and a heart also; so, having tried them both, I should much rather have a heart." Sometimes I feel like the the Tin Woodman in the Wizard of Oz - I think I will remember things but they vanish out of my head the minute my mind wanders off. Out of the discussions in Bangkok a week or two back, the one thing I remember about "There are these roots of trees, these empty huts. Meditate, Cunda, do not delay or else you will regret it later. This is our instruction to you." is that terms such as Develop! and Go! were said by the Buddha, and heard by the recipient, as meaning "Whatever you are doing now .... develop ... go..." That is, the context of the teaching in any sutta is all important. metta, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Nina, Htoo, Chris & All, > > (This series of `Musings' are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with > A.Sujin) > *** > In Musings4 I referred to discussions on the development of calm and > concentration. Many times on DSG we've all discussed in detail the two > meanings of jhana*.I found it useful to discuss these in more detail. In > particular I was interested to know whether they referred to any moments > of samatha and vipassana bhavana (mental development). > > Jhana is derived from jhayati,(Sk dhyana). Often we read jhayati or > jhayatha (below) translated as `meditate', such as in the Sallekhasutta, > MN8, which we discussed with Jim's Pali expertise a long time ago. The > Buddha said to Cunda: > > "There are these roots of trees, these empty huts. Meditate, Cunda, do not > delay or else you will regret it later. This is our instruction to you." > (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl). > > The two meanings of jhana refer to arammanupanijjhana, referring to > moments of samatha development and lakkhanupanijjhana, referring to the > development of satipatthana. K.Sujin stressed that jhana means `burning' > in both instances. > > Both kinds of jhana are included in the quote above and elsewhere (see > below*) > > When we refer to arammanupanijjhana, the burning aspect refers to the > (wholesome) concentrating on the object in the development of samatha. > `Jhana' here refers to the very beginning of samatha development up to > appana samadhi (absorption). At such moments, the defilements are `burnt' > away. > > When we refer to lakkhanupanijjhana, there is the burning of unwholesome > states at any moment of satipatthana by knowing the lakkhana > (characteristic) of reality. When there is right understanding, > unwholesome cittas cannot arise. It continues to `burn' until all > defeilements are completely burnt away. > > For either kind of bhavana (mental development/meditation), there is > `burning' from the very beginning. Without burning from the start, it's > impossible that jhanas or supramundane states can be attained. So when we > are urged to 'meditate' or develop wholesome states, we are being urged to > see the value and urgency of samatha and satipatthana development at this > very moment with right understanding, not with any idea of a self that can > bring about such development. > > Some may question whether ordinary moments of wholesome cittas, such as > moments of metta or generosity can be referred to as jhana or `burning'. > Without any development (i.e without wisdom of samatha or vipassana > accompanying such states), we cannot really refer to them as burning, as I > understand, but it was suggested that we do not need to think about this > aspect. We also discussed how we all make mistakes according to our very > limited knowledge and this can make us humble. (to be contd). > > Metta, > > Sarah > > *Some of the previous posts on the two meanings of jhana can be found > under `Jhana -2 meanings' and `Meditation in the Texts' in Useful Posts. > Here is an extract from one of Nina's: > > * >We read in the ³Discourse on Expunging²(M. I, no 8, Sallekhasutta) that > the Buddha said to Cunda: > > ³These, Cunda, are the roots of trees, these are empty places. Meditate, > Cunda; do not be slothful; be not remorseful later. This is our > instruction to you.² > > In Pali the word ³jhåyathå² is used, that can be translated as > contemplate. The Commentary to this sutta, the ³Papañcasúdaní², explains > that there are two meanings of jhåna: > contemplation on the thirtyeight objects of samatha (aramma.núpanijjhåna), > and contemplation on the characteristics (lakkhaùúpanijjhåna), beginning > with impermanence, with reference to the khandhas, the sense-fields > (åyatanas) and so on. The Commentary states: ³It is said, develop samatha > and vipassanå. Do not be slothful; be not remorseful later.² > > And here is the Pali about the objects of meditation: > Papa~ncasuudanii, Atthk to the Sallekhasutta (M.N. I,8): > Jhaayathaa ti. aaramma.nuupanijjhaanena a.t.thati.msaaramma.naahi > (thirtyeight objects of samatha), lakkha.nuupanijjhaanena ca aniccaadito > (beginning with aniccaa) khandhaayatanaadiini upanijjhaayatha. Samatha~n > ca vipassana~ca va.d.dhetaa(develop) ti vutta.m hoti. Maa pamaadatthaati > maapamajjittha(do not be neglectful).< > ============================================= 44243 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:42am Subject: Re: Musings5 - Burning htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Dear Nina, Htoo, Chris & All, (This series of `Musings' are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) *** In Musings4 I referred to discussions on the development of calm and > concentration. Many times on DSG we've all discussed in detail the two meanings of jhana*.I found it useful to discuss these ..snip.. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah, Thanks for your message. Here is a part of your post quoted. ''"There are these roots of trees, these empty huts. Meditate, Cunda, do not delay or else you will regret it later. This is our instruction to you." (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl).'' I was looking for this 'paragraph'. Is it 'Cunda'? Once I saw someone quoted as 'Ananda'. Are there any other sources that say the same paragraph with the name 'Ananda'? I means 'Are there any words which say--> Meditate Ananda, do not delay or else you will regret it later. This is our instruction to you.' One question for you and all other DSG member here. Does this paragraph suggest to do formally? :-)) With much respect, Htoo Naing 44244 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:49am Subject: Re:thinking processes. gazita2002 Hello Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear RobertK and Azita - > > Rob said it so neatly : "This life is only a tiny moment in samsara and > so we need to strive to find the right way, if we make efforts in the wrong > path it will only prolong samsara and lead to more wrong effort in future > lives". To me making efforts in the wrong path(s) has not been a > problem. The difficulty is with consistently making right effort in the right > path: it is not easy because there are other Path factors that we have > to condition at the same time, such that the five indriyas are in good > balance. > > Azita, did you immediately start to pack and fly back home, after > receiving the "timely reminder" from Rob? Regards, Tep Azita: No, I did not and I'm very curious to know why you think I would. Please let me know, Tep. May we all be well and happy, Azita. 44245 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 htootintnaing Sara wrote: Hi Htoo, I had a couple more comments to add on our old thread but ran out of time before my trip. I apologise for the delay- you've probably forgotten about it by now:-/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is fine. I do not forget it. All your messages in the reply post is clear. So I will not reply mostly because I agree. That is reading of a boy and its implications. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: We may just be quibbling over words her, but what I was wishing to stress was that in any activity, whether 'reading', 'learning', 'walking' or 'swimming' even, the cittas change rapidly as you know. Mostly the javanas will be akusala as we both agree now, I think, but even when intent on one's study or swimming strokes, there may be momentary wise reflections or kind thoughts for example. We can generalise, but in truth we can only learn to know our own cittas at any time. ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. Most of the time, yes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** ... S: No one has suggested anything about the 3 virati arising together in this context. Even whilst reading, the vithi (processes of cittas) change rapidly. I do a lot of work with teenagers and I assure you that even whilst reading, there can be plenty of bad deeds, speech and occasionally refrainging from such activities or helping a friend:-) .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 3 virati cetasikas arise in single out of 3. If 'kaaya-ducarita virati' arises, vaci-ducarita virati and macchaajiva virati do not arise. When vaci-ducarita virati arises, kaaya-ducarita virati and macchaajiiva virati do not arise. When macchaajiiva virati arises, kaaya-ducarita virati and vaci-ducarita virati doe not arise. They are mutually exclusive in 8 mahakusala cittas. Let us go back to the boy. He is purely reading. Just go for a single profile of one moment of javana citta in the middle of reading. He reads and apperceives that 'a' means 'one and unspecified representative of the whole group of something'. Here javana is 'understanding' of the concept 'a' and its meaning. The object is no more vision of the word on the page of the book but the object is pannatti, which bears ''the meaning of the word'a' in its full essence.'' When javana cittas are taking that object of panatti 'a' and its full meaning, that javana cittas have to be kamavacara cittas. Because there are 55 javana cittas. 26 ( 8 lokuttara cittas + 5 rupakusala jhanas + 5 rupakiriya jhanas + 4 arupakusala jhana + 4 arupakiriya jhana _ for other readers) are appana javana cittas and the boy is not developing appanaa javana. There are 29 javana cittas left for the boy. Again 8 mahakiriya cittas arise only in arahats. There left 21 javana cittas. Hasituppada citta or smiling-consciousness of arahats cannot arise in the boy in question. So there are 20 javana cittas. Among these 20 javana cittas, 12 cittas are akusala cittas and 8 cittas are mahakusala cittas. He is reading. One of javana cittas while he is reading has to be one of these 20 cittas. When he is reading, he is not directed to kaaya-ducarita or kaayasucarita, vaci-ducarita or vaci-sucarita. He is not linked with livelihood when reading. I do not believe he will be in the middle of javana cittas with any of 3 virati cetasikas while reading. I know your examples. If he is taking his sister's computer and the mind is not at reading of words on the screen but on the position of computer then it may well be kaaya-ducarita. But I already said 'purely reading'. He is absorbed in reading and unperturbable at that moment. Purely reading. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .... S: There's no question about the 3 virati as you write. I can't understand how it follows that the poor boy 'will not have any of virati when he is reading or learning'. Why not? How about if he's reading out loud and tempted to harshly shout out the words in anger, but abstains and speaks quietly instead? How about if he's tempted to take his sister's computer, but abstains again? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have argued on these above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes. ***** ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) :-)) :-)) I have been contemplating. I already said that it is written in a book written in Myanmar. I already told you the author. I did not say I accept or do not accept. But generally I agree that when a boy is reading his school lessons, most of his javana cittas will be akusala cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: Akusala doesn't have to be concerned with one of the above. .... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What I understand is that you are talking 'cittuppaada'. If it is true, yes you are right. That is akusala doesn't have to be concerned with one of 'killing-stealing-sexing-lying-intoxicating'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S:Yes, but we can't say that just because it isn't akusala kamma patha, that it must be kusala:-/I don't think this is 'simplicity :-). .... ***** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Generally yes. We cannot overgeneralize. But there are 2 alternative that is 8 mahakusala cittas and 12 akusala cittas while the boy is 'PURELY READING AND UNDERSTANDING'. Here I add, UNDERSTANDING. If understanding involve, how will you say? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Most likely it is lobha:-). ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course. (I snipped as we both know the snipped part.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Again, I disagree. Uddhacca (restlessness) arises with every akusala citta as you know and it can be very subtle. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You missed the point. I was not talking on uddhacca-cetasika. I was talking on uddhacca-citta. Please re-read my earlier reply. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: When there is the slightest excitement in what we are reading or when we feel enthusiastic about the subject, usually it's attachment with uddhacca, though this is usually considered a 'positive' characteristic. As I wrote in one of the Musings,usually any strong concentration is akusala. It's not calm at such moments. Metta, Sarah ======== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Again, I was talking on uddhacca-citta and not on uddhacca cetasika. The boy is reading. And at a point where we cut as a profile through his javana cittas, one of these reading javana cittas will be a) one of 8 mahakusala cittas b) one of 12 akusala cittas When he is reading, there is no reason to arise vicikiccha cittas, if his reading material is his school lessons and not Dhamma lessons. When he is absorbed in reading and understanding, he is not wandering astray but concentrates on 'the concept that bears the meaning of words on the paper of his school lesson book. So no vicikiccha and uddhacca cittas. I am not talking on cetasikas. There left 10 akusala cittas and 8 mahakusala cittas. If he is not in the state of happiness and just indifferent then there will be 4 lobha cittas and 4 mahakusala cittas left. If he is not disturbed by reading and by understanding of his lessons, there is no reason to arise dosa, while he is PURELY READING AND UNDERSTANDING. So there left 2 alternatives a) 4 lobha mula cittas b) 4 mahakusala cittas If he is alert and no need to be self-stimulated or self-prompted there will be 2 alternatives. a) 2 lobha cittas b) 2 mahakusala cittas These cittas are difficult to be differentiated. a) Moha, uddhacca, ahirika, anottappa b) Saddha, sati, hiri, ottappa But how does he understand his school lesson with 2 lobha cittas? There is no panna in 2 lobha cittas. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44246 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 htootintnaing Jon wrote: Hi Htoo > htootintnaing wrote: > >Dear Jon, > >Thanks for your reply. If in walking, these movements of walking are all cittaja ruupa and they have to be so. If the cittas are all jhanas, then these walking movements have to be abhinna's output. Otherwise walking cannot be done by jhanas. Because the object of jhana is separate and not the movement and intention to move. > >As there are infinite moments, jhana cittas may arise in between. So > >these jhanas are not in the form of jhana-samapatti or jhana- > >attainment. My understanding is that moments of samatha bhavana (e.g., metta, karuna) can occur at any time, regardless of the present activity. When it comes to jhana, the same may apply if the jhana is of sufficiently developed strength (e.g., there is mastery). Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree, Jon. Thanks for your information. But may I ask a question. 'Are we become a machine running automatically when we are thinking on different things while the body is in some activities like walking fast and thinking what to do when we arrive the office?' What I believe is that the body is moving and this is cittaja rupa and without cittas these movements never arise. So among billions of cittas in distraction (from walking fast) some cittas direct to fast walking. The novice cannot think or direct to his walking if he is in absorptive jhana cittas. Then those rupas of walking will be cittaja rupas of abhinna. Otherwise, he will have to do entering-coming-out of jhana in a quick and successive manner. Jhana cittas in 1st jhana cannot walk, and 2nd jhana, 3rd jhana, 4th jhana cannot walk. Only abhinna will be able to walk. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >In Myanmar, once there was a novice. He went alm round to 3 >differtent villages. This happened for a long time. Only when 3 >villagers of 3 different villages met, they talked about the4 novice >and came to know that the novice was going alm round at the same time. >With Metta, >Htoo Naing 44247 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:08am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau Hi Evan, You wrote: ------------------------- > Ken, I agree that the jhanas alone are not going to lead to liberation, however, a mind that can attain the jhanas (esp up to 4th jhana) is sharp enough to start to notice and pick apart the veil of delusion. ------------------------- A jhana meditator has accumulated tendencies for kusala consciousness, and that will make vipassana easier. However, he can also have accumulations for very akusala consciousness. If he has very strong wrong-views (however suppressed), then he might not be able to practice vipassana at any level. I think there are examples of such people in the Tipitaka. ------------------- E: > Without a mind of that power, delusion cannot be dispelled. ------------------- Remembering that dhana, sila and bhavana are free of moha, we can say that we are all capable of dispelling delusion. But perhaps that is not what you meant by 'dispelled.' In a moment of Path-consciousness, some delusions are permanently dispelled. And I agree; at those moments the mind is concentrated with great power. That power is developed by countless moments of satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------------------- E: > Before you say that one can attain liberation with insight alone, I will also agree with you before you get the chance to say it. However, on the path to increasing one's insight ability, the mind's power/ability/flexibility increases to that equivalent to jhana. So it's a similar sort of process with a different emphasis. ----------------------------------------------------------- I agree. Jhana is developed after devoting many lifetimes to samatha. It requires understanding the difference between kusala and akusala. So there are similarities with vipassana, which is also developed over many lifetimes. However it requires understanding the characteristics of nama and rupa. ------------------------------------------ KH: > > Don't forget the story of 'the man, the boy and the donkey.' That ended in tragedy. :-) > Evan: Well, a Bhikkhu/Bhikkhuni who can attain at will the 4 lower jhanas would have so much more insight and "mind capability" that there is no way I could see myself making a comment that his/her understanding has necessarily progressed further than our own. ------------------------------------------- (I realise you meant to type ' *not* necessarily progressed further than our own.') Sure, a bhikkhu with any of the attainments has progressed further than we have, but you seem to be presuming B. Brahmavamso has done that. Has he said so? In message 44073, Sarah has quoted texts explaining that it takes a wise person to know the attainments of others, and even then, only after a long, close association. I think a bhikkhu who announces attainment puts us all in an invidious position. We don't want to gainsay a bhikkhu, but until we can prove it for ourselves, how can we know whether to believe him or not? Ken H 44248 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:16am Subject: Dhamma Thread (317) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Marana-asanna javana cittas are 'the final series of thought moments' in a life and at the end of that series there usually follows cuti citta or dying consciousness or life-ending consciousness or life- ceasing consciousness. Sometimes just before cuti citta and just after the last (5th) marana- asanna javana citta, there is a bhavanga citta. These cittuppaada will depend on rupas of both arammana/object and hadaya/heart or seat of mind. There are 19 patisandhi cittas and there are 20 patisandhi or 20 rebirth. One extra patisandhi is rupa-patisandhi of asannisatta brahmaas. There is no interval between the cuti citta of immediate previous life and patisandhi citta of the current life or between the cuti citta of this current life and patisandhi citta of next life. There is no interval at all. Quite swift. So fast. Too rapid. Dreadfully quick. No one can stop this. Even The Buddha, The Exalted One, The Supreme One, The Well Gone One, Bhagava, The Teacher cannot stop or cut up this point. Only arahatta phala nana will stop this bridge of 'no interval' which connect cuti citta and next life patisandhi citta. Because arahatta phala cittas, who act as marana-asanna javana cittas are so pure, so clean, free of defilement, free of kamma and as there is no more sankhara or new kamma the bridge is broken and when the last javana citta of arahattas' marana-asanna javana citta passes away, arahatta cuti citta arises. As soon as that cuti citta passes away, the whole circle of birth- rebirth is completely destroyed and asankhata dhaatu behaves itself as uncomparable bliss and that asankhata dhaatu is nibbana dhaatu. This dhaatu is just a name as compared to sankhata dhaatu. In actaul sense, nibbana is not dhaatu of any of 18 dhaatu. So nibbana may be called as 'adhaatu' (my opinion, my word). Attano sabhaavam dhaaretiiti dhaatu. Atta means 'self'. This is grammatical word and not of atta-anatta matter. Sabhaava means 'with bhaava' or 'with nature'. Bhava means 'nature' 'existence' 'natural existence'. Sabhaava means 'natural characterisitcs' or 'intrinsic nature'. Dhaareti means 'bear' 'bring' 'carry' 'hold'. Iti means 'such'. Dhaaretiiti means 'as bearing' 'as it bears' 'as it brings' 'as it carries'. Dhaatu means 'element'. There are 18 elements or 18 dhaatus and they all bear their own 'intrinsic characteristics'. Among these 18 dhaatus, nibbana is not one of these 18 dhaatu. But nibbana is used to called 'asankhata dhaatu'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44249 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:36am Subject: Dhamma Thread (318) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The Buddha saw all the changings of life from one to another when He attained dibbacakkha nana. This nana is the 2nd power that He attained just before He became a Buddha. The 1st power is pubbenivaasa nana and it is recollection of all past lives without any obstruction. This means that The Buddha can know all His past lives. Even paccekabuddhas cannot know all their past lives without obstruction let alone Moggallana Thera. After the 1st power was attained, Buddha-to-be continued His effort and He attained the 2nd nana called dibbacakkhu or divine eyes. This nana sees all the changings of life. One life ends with cuti citta and without any interval there arise patisandhi citta. This is temporal linkage and this patisandhi citta may home on anywhere and not confined to the area where the dead being lived. Even though there is a constant changing of lives through out 31 bhumis or 31 realms, this changing is not at random. This means that there is a unique system of how beings change from one life to another. Examples; Hell beings when dies can never be reborn in rupa brahma bhumis or arupa brahma bhumi. Rupa brahmas when die can never be reborn in hell realm directly. I just remember a story of a pig. (Christine may remember this). In Myanmar, there is a saying. 'Byan mart pyii hmaa ta win win, wet sa gyin hmaa ta myunt myunt'. Byan mar = brahma pyi = bhumi (country) hmaa = at, in ta win win = brightening, shining wet = pig sa gyin = eating vessel for animals like cows, pigs ta myunt myunt = ruminously chewing First in the brahma bhumi, then in the animal realm as a pig. This is just to show how dreadful life is. In actual, brahma cannot be reborn directly in the hell or animal or other woeful realms. Abhidhammatthasangaha: vithimuttasangaha; 98. 'aaruppa cutiyaa honti, hetthimaaruppa vajjitaa. Paramaaruppasandhi ca, tathaa kaama tihetkaa.' 'ruupaavacara cutiyaa, ahetu rahitaa siyyum. Sabbaa kaama tihetuhmaa, kaamesveva panetaraa. Ayamettha cutipatisandhikkamo.' May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44250 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:05am Subject: Dhamma Thread (319) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The aim of writing Dhamma Thread posts is to go through necessary Dhamma for understanding and then to move on to merging with daily activities. For those who cannot accept abhidhamma and who do not believe 'a rupa has a lifespan of 17 cittas' and who even said that 'The Buddha cannot see these cittas' and who says 'rupas are so fast that mind cannot follow rupas' can leave all these posts on Dhamma Thread. What I dare say is that all Dhamma Thread posts will be in line with Tipitaka and the facts can be checked against the Teachings. That is the whole treachings of The Buddha and not just a word or a single stanza of teachings. The Buddha saw all beings at their cuti, at their patisandhi when dibbacakkhu nana arose in the middle watch of His 35th birthday, on which He became a Sammasambuddha. There is a unique system which life should be followed after which life. Abhidhammatthasangaha: vithimuttasangaha; 98. 'aaruppa cutiyaa honti, hetthimaaruppa vajjitaa. Paramaaruppasandhi ca, tathaa kaama tihetkaa.' 'ruupaavacara cutiyaa, ahetu rahitaa siyyum. Sabbaa kaama tihetuhmaa, kaamesveva panetaraa. Ayamettha cutipatisandhikkamo.' Aaruppa = arupa brahma, cutiyaa = when dies, aaruppa cutiyaa = when arupa brahma die. Hetthima = lower, hetthimaaruppa = lower arupa brahma Vajjitaa = excepting Paramaa = higher, paramaaruppa sandhi = higher arupa rebirth. So when arupa brahma dies, they are reborn in higher arupa brahma bhumis. Ca = or Tathaa = in the same way Kaama tihetukaa = tihetuka kaama rebirth or higher sensuous rebirth. So arupa brahmas can never be reborn in 4 woeful planes and they cannot be reborn with dvihetuka patisandhi or ahetuka patisandhi like deaf-and-damb. Ruupavacara cutiyaa = when rupa brahmas die, Ahetu rahitaa siyyum = excepting ahetuka patisandhi Sabba kaama tihetuhmaa = all of tihetuka kaama patisandhi So when rupa brahmas die, they may be reborn in kaama bhumis with tihetuka patisandhi and they will not be reborn in ahetuka patisandhi like 4 woeful planes. They may be reborn in arupa brahma bhumis if they practise arupa jhanas. After death of rupa brahmas, 18 patisandhis can arise after exclusion of 2 ahetuka patisandhis from 20 patisandhis. After death of tihetuka kaama beings, all 20 patisandhis can arise. That is why 'manussa bhumi' or 'human realm' is said to be in the junction of all 31 bhumis or 31 realms. They can go anywhere directly if there are conditions. After death of dvihetuka and ahetuka beings, they can only reborn with 10 kaama patisandhis. That is 2 ahetuka patisandhis and 8 mahakusalavipaka kama sugati patisandhi. Ayamettha cuti patisandhikkamo. Such are 'the serialness of cuti followed by patisandhi'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1)Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 2) Apology for many Pali words. They have to be used to avoid delay. If there is any unclearity, please just reply. 44251 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma jonoabb Hi Larry Larry wrote: >Hi all, > >I'm wondering why tranquility isn't the object of jhana. It seems to be >the goal of jhana. Jhana factors are dropped in order to experience >greater tranquility. If vitakka and vicara is the projection of a >concept, how is the nimitta sustained when vitakka and vicara cease? > > Tranquillity (a kusala mental factor) is indeed what characterises moments of samatha consciiousness (and also jhana consciousness, although as jhana is approached the factor of concentration becomes more prominent). I would see the goal of jhana as being (temporary) freedom from the arising of akusala. Vitakka and vicara are, like tranquillity, mental factors that arise with a moment of consciousness. They are not the projection of a concept. They perform a function that apparently can be dispensed with as higher stages of jhana are attained. Jon 44252 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings5 - Burning sarahprocterabb... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > ''"There are these roots of trees, these empty huts. Meditate, > Cunda, > do not delay or else you will regret it later. This is our > instruction > to you." (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl).'' > > I was looking for this 'paragraph'. Is it 'Cunda'? ... S: In the sutta mentioned, yes. ... > > Once I saw someone quoted as 'Ananda'. Are there any other sources > that > say the same paragraph with the name 'Ananda'? > > I means 'Are there any words which say--> Meditate Ananda, do not > delay > or else you will regret it later. This is our instruction to you.' ... S: Yes. MN152 Indriyabhavana Sutta. Exactly the same words to Ananda as you say. .... > > One question for you and all other DSG member here. > > Does this paragraph suggest to do formally? :-)) .... S: Is there any 'formally' in the Pali? :-)) Metta, Sarah ======== 44253 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Geoff, op 10-04-2005 17:21 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: > And so my question still is: What's the canonical Tipitaka statement > that explicitly validates and confirms that the object of jhanacitta > is a counterpart sign (or whatever the commentators say it is), and > not simply the visible form or tactile form. Also, what statement > explicitly confirms that jhana is a state of 'fixed samadhi'? > N: Book of Analysis (Vibhanga), the second Book of the Abhidhamma: Ch 12, Analysis of Jhana. §538: Abandoning covetousness in the world means: ...Therein what is the world? The five aggregates (as objects of) the attachments are the world...> § 564: §602; § 603: § 625: In this chapter the jhana-facors are dealt with and the stages of rupa-jhana and arupa-jhana. **** As to counterpart sign etc: these are not expressively mentioned. The yogavacara cannot immediately dwell in jhana. Jhana is a development. The names of parikamma nimitta etc. merely denote that there is development. He has to persevere with patience and look again and again at the kasina. BTW, the Path of Discrimination deals with insight, the whole work deals with the development of insight, also when jhana is included. Nina. 44254 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Larry, op 10-04-2005 19:35 schreef Larry op LBIDD@...: > I'm wondering why tranquility isn't the object of jhana. It seems to be > the goal of jhana. Jhana factors are dropped in order to experience > greater tranquility. N: Let's talk first about what tranquillity is. It is being removed from attachment to sense objects. It is this kind of tranquillity that is the goal of jhana, not a kind of feeling, feeling tranquil. Jhana itself is this kind of tranquillity. But there is also an object that is tranquillity: recollection of peace or nibbana. Only ariyans are successful and only access can be attained with this subject. L:If vitakka and vicara is the projection of a concept, how is the nimitta sustained when vitakka and vicara cease? N: Because more progress has been made. The nimitta in jhana is not the same as a concept that is the object of thinking for example right now, while we discuss. It is not necessary to think in order to experience the nimitta. Besides, vitakka and vicara are not the same as what we mean by thinking in conventional language. They arise also in sense-door processes. Nina. 44255 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:12am Subject: Farewell (was Re: About rafts (Was: [dsg] Having no opinions jwromeijn Dear Jon, Sarah, and all --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > If you're saying you've found a new means to the same end that the > Buddha spoke about, then I'd have to say I'm sceptical ;-)) > ...................... My first success with a Theravadin skilful means: Jon getting sceptical But it's not enough. I leave DSG, because my annoyance about the dominant orthodoxy makes me making more and more provocative messages. And that's not good for anybody. I learned a lot, from other messages, from discussions and from making - as clear as possible - my messages. My Global Buddhistic path will continue: with much Theravada input, and some Mahayana, and without ideas that are for me not the core of buddhism but old Indian culture. Thanks and metta Joop 44256 From: Matthew Miller Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:46am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum James: > I haven't read this book by Susan Blackmore but I did some Internet > research on her background. After having an out-of-body experience > she began a thirty year career as a parapsychologist, studying > everything strange and bizarre... > In other words, I do not believe that she is a credible, scientific > source for your contentions. Her viewpoint is biased by personal > frustrations and disappointments James, I do wish that you would actually read Blackmore's book rather than resorting outright to ad hominen arguments. The fact that Blackmore spent 30 years studying parapsychology (which includes near-death experiences as one of its "strange and bizarre" subjects) and that she herself had an out-of-body experience, would arguably make her uniquely qualified to write a book on this subject. In any case, the book is quite well-researched and well-documented. Check it out. > Do you happen to have > any other sources for your contention? Another good book is "Reincarnation: A Critical Examination" by Paul Edwards. Of course, I would argue that the burden of proof is really on those who claim (without any supporting evidence) that the mind can continue without the brain. What sources do you have for your "contention"? (Sorry, but "The Buddha says so" doesn't count :-) Matthew 44257 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma abhidhammika Dear Evan, Christine, Nina, Matt, Mike, Robert K and all How are you? Happiness (sukha) is a type of feeling (vedanaa). There are four Ruupa Jhaanas and Four Aruupa Jhaanas. While in the second Ruupa Jhaana, the pratitioner who attains it can drop (i.e remove) thinking (vitakko) and rethinking (vicaaro). When the pratitioner reaches the level of the Fourth Ruupa Jhaana, he or she drops happiness (sukha) whenever they enter this Jhaana. As the Fourth Ruupa Jhaana becomes more refine than the preceding Jhaanas, the pratitioner comes to find happiness to be gross, and so always transcends the latter and is content with neutral feeling. Liberation (mokkha, vimutti) is not a type of feeling. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: Evan: > Buddhism is NOT a technique for finding happiness. > Happiness is a by-product of Buddhist practice. > Happiness is NOT the stated objective > of Buddhism. Comtemplation is NOT Dhamma > practice. Contemplation alone > will NOT lead one to "see things as they really are". Am I going to > quote dhamma to support my statements? No. I don't have the time. Matthew: Didn't the Buddha say that, just as the sea has but one flavor which is salty, so too his Dhamma has only one flavor -- liberation from suffering? Isn't the whole point of Buddhism the liberation from suffering? Matthew --Evan Matthew, Yes that is true, but happiness is not liberation. All I was saying is that the Buddha taught the path to liberation from suffering, not the path to happiness although happiness comes with liberation. Maybe I'm splitting hairs but I don't think that happiness and liberation are the same thing - they are related in that happiness is required for liberation. Kind Regards, Evan Replies Author Date 44228 Re: The Brain on Dhamma ... Yes, I think that this is just fussing over semantics. It was the Dalai La... Matthew Miller bupleurum 1:09 pm 44258 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:26am Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Nina, Thanks for the Pitaka references, they are very helpful. But could you please give me the specific context of these two statements: > §602; > § 603: (object) operception, audible (object) perception...> Are these two statements specifically referring to the first form jhana? If so, how is that stated prior to these two verses? Geoff 44259 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Cosmique: > To me Buddha is more of a psychiatrist... > When Buddhism tries to explain what is beyond its original purpose > it takes risk to become a religious system like > Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, etc. whose doctrines are > not always in harmony with the science. > Every new scientific discovery in the future might wipe away > a metaphysical or religious view widely accepted today. > It does not threaten Buddhism at all, if it > clings to its original task set forth by Gotama, that is, > teaching suffering and cessation of suffering > without metaphysics. Cosmique, you and I are pretty much in complete agreement here. However, there are many who still cling to Buddhist metaphysics. For example, in another post in this thread, James gave a link to a document on the "31 planes of existence" which is about as metaphysical as you can get: James: > Perhaps you might like to > read this article about the 31 Planes of Existence: > http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/allexistence.pdf In that document, under Tiracchaana Yoni (the animal realm, p.31) the author writes: "behaving like an animal will get one to this plane." That strikes me as odd, since we *are* animals. Matthew 44260 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:07am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma buddhatrue Hi Matthew, Matthew: James, I do wish that you would actually read Blackmore's book rather than resorting outright to ad hominen arguments. James: I would read her book, or at least parts of it, if I could get access to it. Unfortunately, I live in Cairo, Egypt and there isn't a lot of access to English books. You haven't quoted anything from the book as support, just the title, so that is all I have to go on. Maybe you could quote something from the book? Also, I don't believe that I resorted to ad hominen arguments because I pointed out those aspects of the author which relate directly to the subject matter; it's not like I said, "Oh, did you see that freaky haircut she has with five different colors? She can't be trusted!" ;-)) Matthew: In any case, the book is quite well-researched and well- documented. James: So you say; but I know that if it contradicts the teachings of Buddhism then it isn't well-researched or documented enough. Therefore, I am already doubtful. You would have to prove it to me. Matthew: Another good book is "Reincarnation: A Critical Examination" by Paul Edwards. James: Thanks, but Buddhists don't believe in reincarnation either, they believe in rebirth. Also, I don't have access to English books. Do you have any Internet sources? Matthew: Of course, I would argue that the burden of proof is really on those who claim (without any supporting evidence) that the mind can continue without the brain. What sources do you have for your "contention"? (Sorry, but "The Buddha says so" doesn't count :-) James: Why not? This is a Buddhist group and I use the words of Lord Buddha to prove whatever is pertinent; he was the supreme authority. If you don't have the wisdom to accept the teaching of Lord Buddha, that is your problem. In my opinion, scientific skeptics suffer from a constipation of the heart. Metta, James 44261 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma buddhatrue Hi Matthew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Miller" wrote: > > Cosmique, you and I are pretty much in complete agreement here. > > However, there are many who still cling to Buddhist metaphysics. For > example, in another post in this thread, James gave a link to a > document on the "31 planes of existence" which is about as > metaphysical as you can get: > > James: > > Perhaps you might like to > > read this article about the 31 Planes of Existence: > > http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/allexistence.pdf > > In that document, under Tiracchaana Yoni (the animal realm, p.31) the > author writes: "behaving like an animal will get one to this plane." > That strikes me as odd, since we *are* animals. I see that you're talking about me to other people. ;-)) You are correct, however, I do firmly believe in Buddhist metaphysics. I even believe in the Buddha's teachings of supernormal powers, which many in the `core' of this group don't. However, your argument here is faulty. First, humans are animals in form only, but not in mind. Secondly, the category of `animals' according to Buddhist cosmology includes insects, and I don't think you would argue that humans are insects also, would you? Metta, James > Matthew 44262 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:41am Subject: Re:thinking processes. buddhistmeditat... Dear Azita - Because RobK advised as follows: -- This life is only a tiny moment in samsara and so we need to strive to find the right way. And because you admitted that you were then "too busy doing nothing". Furthermore, according to Theragatha VI.13 : "Make the day not-in-vain, a little or a lot. However much the day passes, that's how much less is life. Your last day approaches. This isn't your time to be heedless". Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Hello Tep, > > > Azita: No, I did not and I'm very curious to know why you think I > would. Please let me know, Tep. > > May we all be well and happy, > Azita. 44263 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:01am Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Jon and Larry, Jon says: > However, there is usually a > reference, such as the one given by Nina, on which the commentarial > reference hangs its hat. Sorry for my denseness, but what reference given by Nina is the one on which commentarial interpretation hangs its hat? > I'd be interested to know the basis for the idea that the object of > jhana citta is the actual visible object rather than an image of it > (if that's what you're suggesting). At this point I'm just inquiring, and so am not asserting anything specifically, but the two suttas that you bring up Larry, MN 77 & MN 121 could possibly be interpreted as stating that the bare perception of visible form is the object of 'perception of earth' in MN 121, and the first two of the eight releases/liberations (vimokkha is it??) and the first two of the eight ?masteries? (I don't know the pali term, and am using Sister Upalavanna's translation) stated in MN 77 could be referring to form jhana, again with visible form as object. Also, the way jhana is described in MN 77 and AN V.28 could be interpreted as meaning the piti and sukha that is being experienced in form jhana is a result of phassa between tactile sensation, the body, and tactile consciousness. In the statement that the meditator 'permeate' and 'pervade' the entire body with piti and sukha, it seems explicit that the meditator is fully aware of the body (i.e. tactile form). See: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-028.html Metta, Geoff 44264 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings5 - Burning nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you very much. It is most important not to forget the two meanings of jhana: referring to arammanupanijjhana (objects of samatha), and referring to lakkhanupanijjhana, the development of satipatthana. The Buddha did not teach jhaana for its own sake and those who developed arammanupanijjhana had, in the end, also to develop lakkhanupanijjhana, understanding of all characterstics that appeared, including jhanacitta. Otherwise one would take it for self. I looked up in PED jhaayati and found two meanings: burning and thinking closely of an object. There are two different stems. Thinking closely of an object jhaayati, sk. dhyaayati, and burning, of another stem (sk. ksaayati). Also text references are given but that is quite a study. Nina. op 11-04-2005 10:34 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@... > Jhana is derived from jhayati,(Sk dhyana). Often we read jhayati or > jhayatha (below) translated as ‘meditate’, such as in the Sallekhasutta, > MN8, which we discussed with Jim’s Pali expertise a long time ago. 44265 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhana and bodily movement. nilovg Dear Htoo and Jon, I remember discussing with A. Sujin about Sariputta who attained jhana and was also fanning the Buddha. Dighanakasutta. As I understood, he could enter and emerge from jhana very quickly and do the fanning movement with kaamavacara cittas in between. Nina. op 11-04-2005 13:53 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > What I believe is that the body is moving and this is cittaja rupa > and without cittas these movements never arise. So among billions of > cittas in distraction (from walking fast) some cittas direct to fast > walking. > > The novice cannot think or direct to his walking if he is in > absorptive jhana cittas. Then those rupas of walking will be cittaja > rupas of abhinna. > > Otherwise, he will have to do entering-coming-out of jhana in a quick > and successive manner. 44266 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 0:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Geoff, op 11-04-2005 17:26 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: ... But could > you please give me the specific context of these two statements: > >> §602; N: This is after the fourth stage of rupajhana, and now he will enter the first stage of arupa jhana. >> § 603: means: ...Visible >> (object) perception, audible (object) perception...> N: the same. §604: These arise in a sens-door process, having sense objects. This in contrast to jhana subjects of meditation. G: Are these two statements specifically referring to the first form > jhana? If so, how is that stated prior to these two verses? Prior to first rupa-jhana is about subduing the hindrances, and then the abandoning of the jhanafactors that are no longer needed. . But there is more in Dhammasangani, Ch II. It deals with the fourfold system and the fivefold system. It also deals with the kasinas of earth, water, fire, air, blue-black, yellow. red. white. Brahmaviharas, foul. In Ch III the arupajhanas. Now I understand more what you are wondering about. You wrote to Jon: He looks at a kasina, and sure, the object of rupajhana is still connected with rupa, it is coarser than arupa jhana. However, looking at earth will change to having a mental image, going away from visible object, it merely begins with looking. It is quite different from our ordinary looking about the house, etc. Nina. Nina. 44267 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 0:45pm Subject: Farewell (was Re: About rafts (Was: [dsg] Having no opinions buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Dear Jon, Sarah, and all > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > > > If you're saying you've found a new means to the same end that the > > Buddha spoke about, then I'd have to say I'm sceptical ;-)) > > > ...................... > > My first success with a Theravadin skilful means: Jon getting > sceptical > > But it's not enough. I leave DSG, because my annoyance about the > dominant orthodoxy makes me making more and more provocative > messages. And that's not good for anybody. Hi Joop, Oh darn, another member chased off by the supposedly "open" discussion here! Can't say I blame you, but can't say I approve either. After all, I have quit and returned so many times it is embarrassing. Maybe you should do like what I am doing currently: stick around but don't participate as much. After all, every once in a while a real nugget of knowledge comes along that it would be a shame to miss. Anyway, take care. Metta, James 44268 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: jhana and bodily movement. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo and Jon, > I remember discussing with A. Sujin about Sariputta who attained jhana and > was also fanning the Buddha. Dighanakasutta. As I understood, he could enter > and emerge from jhana very quickly and do the fanning movement with > kaamavacara cittas in between. > Nina. I do not see how this would be possible. Was this your conclusion or A. Sujin's? Because the words of Sariputta himself, recorded in the Theragatha (995,996), state: "It was to another that the Blessed One was teaching the Dhamma; to the Dhamma-preaching I listened intently for my own good. And not in vain, for freed from all defilements, I gained release." http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html#attain So, are you contenting that Sariputta was entering and exiting jhana, fanning the Buddha, and listening intently to a dhamma discourse, all at the same time? To me, this seems impossible. Metta, James 44269 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:52pm Subject: [dsg] Re: jhana and bodily movement. christine_forsy... Hello James, Nina,Jon, all, James, I think you are referring to the passage in the Dighanakha Sutta MN 74 p. 606 of B. Bodhi's translation? v.14 "Now on that occasion the venerable Saariputta was standing behind the Blessed One fanning him. The he thought: "The Blessed One, indeed, speaks of the abandoning of these things through direct knowledge; the Sublime One, indeed, speaks of the relinquishing of these things through direct knowledge." As the venerable Saariputta considered this, through not clinging his mind was liberated from the taints." [attained arahantship] See what you think of the Anupada Sutta 'One by One as They Occurred' MN 111 p. 899 of B. Bodhi's translation, particularly v.20 where there is a more in-depth description (by the Buddha) of how Saariputta attains arahantship. I see no difficulty in MN 111 being an expansion of the incident only touched on in MN 74. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" >>>courtesy snip<<< 44270 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Nina, You say: > He looks at a kasina, and sure, the object of rupajhana is still > connected with rupa [....] However, looking at earth will change to > having a mental image, going away from visible object, it merely >begins with looking. Okay, is there a Pitaka statement that confirms/supports this? And why would earth kasina jhana necessitate the cessation of perception of sensory form (i.e. visible and tactile form), again based upon the Abidhamma Pitaka description of kasina as object of jhana? And kasina jhana aside, there still seems to be no explicit Pitaka statement that says a requirement of the first rupa jhana (anapanasati for example) is the cessation of perception of the five sensory forms (khandha, ayatana, dhatu, whatever), or the cessation of the five sensory form consciousnesses (khandha, dhatu or whatever). Again, the description of the first two of the eight releases/liberations (vimokkha??), and the first two of the eight ?? masteries?? given in MN 77, and the description of 'perception of earth' in MN 121, seems to indicate that bare visible form, no more no less, can be the object of jhana ('external form' in MN 77 and 'earth' in MN 121). Also, the description of jhana given in MN 77 and AN V.28 seems to indicate that the yogi has full awareness of the body in jhana, and possibly, although it's not explicitly stated, that piti and sukha are 'pervading' and 'permeating' the body because they are a result of body phassa. You say: > It is quite different from our ordinary looking about > the house, etc. Yes:-)) Nina, I'm certainly not implying that form jhana is no different than just sitting around, or watching t.v., which involve a much less refined level of samadhi than does jhana, otherwise many couch-potatoes would be highly developed yogis!! But there are many who assert that 'fixed samadhi' regarding form jhana (kasina, anapanasati, and the like) was never a teaching of Buddha, and the closest he came to any type of 'fixed samadhi' was in relation to formless jhana, after cessation of form perception. Geoff 44271 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Nina, I forgot to ask in previous post about this: > ?604: what is diversity of perceptions? The perception, perceiving, state > of perceiving of one who has not attained (to jhaana) but who is > possessed of mind-element (mano-dhaatu) and possessed of > mano-viñ±¡¡.na-dhaatu).> Isn't this quote also referring to attainment of perception of infinite space? If so, then I don't follow your comment after this verse: > These arise in a sens-door process, having sense objects. This in > contrast to jhana subjects of meditation. Geoff 44272 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 jonoabb Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >'Are we become a machine running automatically when we are thinking >on different things while the body is in some activities like walking >fast and thinking what to do when we arrive the office?' > >What I believe is that the body is moving and this is cittaja rupa >and without cittas these movements never arise. So among billions of >cittas in distraction (from walking fast) some cittas direct to fast >walking. > >The novice cannot think or direct to his walking if he is in >absorptive jhana cittas. Then those rupas of walking will be cittaja >rupas of abhinna. > >Otherwise, he will have to do entering-coming-out of jhana in a quick >and successive manner. > >Jhana cittas in 1st jhana cannot walk, and 2nd jhana, 3rd jhana, 4th >jhana cannot walk. Only abhinna will be able to walk. > > As I understand it, in those with highly developed jhana, jhana cittas may alternate with ordinary (non-jhana) cittas, thus allowing the person to perform an ordinary activity and be 'in jhana' at the same time. I seem to recall references (either in the suttas or commentaries) to those could take their meditation subject on alms round and back again, and I believe this refers to a similar phenomenon -- simultaneous samatha and ordinary activity. Jon 44273 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 3:06pm Subject: Re: jhana and bodily movement. buddhatrue Hi Christine, Thanks for writing. Chris: I see no difficulty in MN 111 being an expansion of the incident only touched on in MN 74. James: I do see a problem because I don't believe it is possible to be fanning the Buddha, listening to a discourse, and being in jhana at the same time. I agree with Htoo, the body must be still and stable in order to enter jhana. As far as the Anupada Sutta, I don't believe that it is authentic. I have posted about this matter before. I don't believe that it is possible to be in jhana, when the senses are cut off, and then to be aware of sensory input at the same time. It just can't be done. Actually, as far as I know, according to the Abhidhamma this isn't possible either. Jhana cittas are of a particular nature and aren't like the cittas of sensory input. Metta, James 44274 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 2:59pm Subject: Re: Farewell (was Re: About rafts (Was: [dsg] Having no opinions jonoabb Dear Joop Joop wrote: >My first success with a Theravadin skilful means: Jon getting >sceptical > >But it's not enough. I leave DSG, because my annoyance about the >dominant orthodoxy makes me making more and more provocative >messages. And that's not good for anybody. > >I learned a lot, from other messages, from discussions and from >making - as clear as possible - my messages. >My Global Buddhistic path will continue: with much Theravada input, >and some Mahayana, and without ideas that are for me not the core of >buddhism but old Indian culture. >Thanks and metta > >Joop > > I do hope you won't leave. Your contribution to the list is appreciated by Sarah and me, and by many other members, I'm sure. It takes all types to have a stimulating discussion, but of course it also takes degree of tolerance to the 'fixed positions' of others (especially those infuriating orthodoxists ;-)), and I know this can seem like hard going at times. However, I think you'll find it worth the effort in the long run. I hope you'll stay around. I'm interested in your closing remark about 'ideas that are not the core of Buddhism but old Indian culture'. I was not aware you saw things this way. If possible, please elaborate further. Jon 44275 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma lbidd2 Geoff: "...the two suttas that you bring up Larry, MN 77 & MN 121 could possibly be interpreted as stating..." Hi Geoff, "Could possibly be interpreted" is the crux of the matter. If a sutta needs interpretation why not resort to the commentaries and people who have extensive first hand experience? Larry 44276 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 4/11/05 12:10:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > constipation of the heart ==================== Good phrase-making, James!! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44277 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma lbidd2 Nina: "Let's talk first about what tranquillity is. It is being removed from attachment to sense objects. It is this kind of tranquillity that is the goal of jhana, not a kind of feeling, feeling tranquil." Hi Nina and Jon, I disagree. I think tranquility here is the tranquility cetasikas, not a concept. As for the role of vitakka and vicara in jhana I found this note in Vism. but the sutta notation doesn't conform; any idea where it comes from? Vism.III, note 4. 'Applied thought that occurs as though absorbing (appento) assocated states in the object is absorption (appanaa). Accordingly it is described as "absorption, absorbing (appanaa vyappanaa)" (M.iii,73). Larry 44278 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Evan Evan_Stamatopou... Christine, Thanks for the lesson. I had heard of some of those terms but most of them were a mystery. Kind Regards, Evan 44279 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 5:00pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... ------------------------------------------ KH: > > Don't forget the story of 'the man, the boy and the donkey.' That ended in tragedy. :-) --Evan You must excuse my ignorance here. I can't forget the story because I don't know the story. Is this some sort of inside joke or am I missing something here? Please let me out of my misery. > Evan: Well, a Bhikkhu/Bhikkhuni who can attain at will the 4 lower jhanas would have so much more insight and "mind capability" that there is no way I could see myself making a comment that his/her understanding has necessarily progressed further than our own. ------------------------------------------- --KH (I realise you meant to type ' *not* necessarily progressed further than our own.') --Evan Thanks for realising that. It was of course a typo. --KH Sure, a bhikkhu with any of the attainments has progressed further than we have, but you seem to be presuming B. Brahmavamso has done that. Has he said so? In message 44073, Sarah has quoted texts explaining that it takes a wise person to know the attainments of others, and even then, only after a long, close association. I think a bhikkhu who announces attainment puts us all in an invidious position. We don't want to gainsay a bhikkhu, but until we can prove it for ourselves, how can we know whether to believe him or not? Ken H Ken, As far as I know Ajahn Brahm has not made claim to any attainments, however, when I listen to talks from various bhikkhus, I pay particular attention to how they relate their "stories" or discussions. When bhikkhus talk about jhana, it can fairly easily be discerned who is speaking from experience and who is not. Other bikkhus that I have been on retreat with are also capable of these attainments (they are after all only mundane attainments) such as Ven. Mahinda and Ven. Rakkhita. I think that if one is spending many years in seclusion and puts forth energy, with suitable instruction, these attainments are achieved. Kind Regards, Evan 44280 From: Matthew Miller Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:31pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum James: > I see that you're talking about me to other people. ;-)) You are > correct, however, I do firmly believe in Buddhist metaphysics. I > even believe in the Buddha's teachings of supernormal powers, which > many in the `core' of this group don't. However, your argument here > is faulty. First, humans are animals in form only, but not in > mind. Secondly, the category of `animals' according to Buddhist > cosmology includes insects, and I don't think you would argue that > humans are insects also, would you? We and insects evolved from the same ancestors and are more similar than not. Seventy percent of the genes found in fruit flies are also present in humans. Our similarity allows us to use the fruit fly genome to understand human biology better, and treat human diseases. The key discoveries for understanding the molecular basis for how the human brain functions have come from the fruit fly. See here: http://archives.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/03/23/fruit.fly.genome/ James: > First, humans are animals in form only, but not in > mind. Ah, we finally return to the topic of this thread... "Mind" is not something that just sprang into existence with humans. We can see the gradual emergence of mental functions coinciding with the gradual evolution of brain structure. As we move from simple organisms up the phylogenic chain, we see more elaborate cognitive functions emerging. The simplest brains merely control and coordinate movement and body functions such as heartbeat, blood pressure, fluid balance and body temperature. As the brain evolved in complexity, and especially with the emergence of larger cortices in mammals, we see the gradual emergence of "higher" functions like cognition, emotion, memory, motor learning and other sorts of learning. The difference between our minds and those of our nearest animal relatives is only one of degrees. Matthew 44282 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:28pm Subject: Greetings and salutations foamflowers Hello everyone, My name is Lisa I practice Vipassana meditation taught by SN Goenka for almost 15 years. For six months prior to going to my first meditaton retreat I studied from the Nikayas and in particular from the Majjhima Nikaya. My favorite is the Dhammapada for it's simple and clear message of faith, duty and virtue. The Dhammapada plus the Nikayas gave me inspiration and faith to continue my study and also work very hard to learn meditation, which I had never done before. Three years after introduction to meditation and sutra I studied with a Monk who first introduced me to Dhamma. Sunim (=monk) is a Soen (=Zen) Abbot from Korea and I also went to two or three ten day retreats a year for three years. I sat for ten days and also served for ten days. Sunim left the States to go back to Korea three years after I met him. For the last 12 years I've meditated on my own and studied sutra. Once a year I take a ten day silent Vipassana retreat to sit and serve. This year I will go to a Satipatthana retreat through SN Goenkas meditation center. The view of reality as it is becomes his right view. Thought of reality as it is becomes his right thought. Effort toward reality as it is becomes his right effort. Awareness of reality as it is becomes his right awareness. Concentration on reality as it is becomes his right concentration. His actions of body and speech and his livelihood become truly purified. Thus the Noble Eightfold Path advances him toward development and fulfillment. >149, Maha-Salayatanika Sutta "Those truths of which before I had only heard, now I dwell having experienced them directly within the body, and I observe them with penetrating insight." >S. XLVIII (IV). v. 10 (50), Apana Sutta (spoken by Sariputta, chief >disciple of the Buddha) >(From the introduction to the noble eight fold path in this study) With Metta, Lisa 44283 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:43pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau Hi Evan, You wrote: ------------------ > You must excuse my ignorance here. I can't forget the story because I don't know the story. Is this some sort of inside joke or am I missing something here? Please let me out of my misery. ------------------- KH: I think it is one of Aesop's Fables. A man sets off for town with his grandson and a donkey. He meets someone who criticises him for making the little boy walk and so he puts him on the donkey. Later, someone says the boy should be taught respect for his elders, and so the man rides while the boy walks. Then someone says, 'That's silly, you should both ride.' Then someone says 'You should be ashamed of yourselves overloading that poor donkey. Get off and carry the donkey.' Struggling under the weight of the donkey, they fall off a bridge and all three of them drown. I think that man had it easy when you consider all the expert advice we Dhamma students are offered. Once we have decided to study the teachings of the Buddha - as found in the ancient Theravadin texts - we should either stick to that decision, or give it away and take up new project. We shouldn't combine different, conflicting, teachings. ----------------- <. . .> E: > As far as I know Ajahn Brahm has not made claim to any attainments, however, when I listen to talks from various bhikkhus, I pay particular attention to how they relate their "stories" or discussions. When bhikkhus talk about jhana, it can fairly easily be discerned who is speaking from experience and who is not. Other bikkhus that I have been on retreat with are also capable of these attainments (they are after all only mundane attainments) such as Ven. Mahinda and Ven. Rakkhita. I think that if one is spending many years in seclusion and puts forth energy, with suitable instruction, these attainments are achieved. ------------------ KH: I know these things can sound convincing, but are they consistent with the Pali Canon and ancient commentaries? From what I have seen and heard of those texts, jhana is a world away from anything ordinary people are capable of. I think it was a quote from the Visuddhimagga where I read that, of every one hundred thousand students (or was it ten thousand?) who undertake training in jhana (and I'm sure that means being accepted by an accomplished teacher; not just trying it on the lounge-room floor) only one will attain access concentration. Of every one hundred thousand who attain access concentration, only one will attain the first jhana. And so on up. Besides all that, we should consider the purpose of developing jhana. You have been told that it sharpens the mind for vipassana practice, but I'm sure that is not in the texts. According to the texts, jhana can become a 'vehicle for vipassana' only for those who have mastered it. You have to be able to enter and exit it at will so that the jhana factors can be taken as objects of vipassana. So, a little bit of practice at home, or even accomplishment in the early jhanas, has no special bearing on satipatthana. In fact, it can be detrimental: if you have the idea that dhammas are known by concentrating - rather than by understanding - then you are on the wrong path. Ken H 44284 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:40pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... Hi Ken, You wrote: KH: I think it is one of Aesop's Fables. A man sets off for town with his grandson and a donkey. He meets someone who criticises him for making the little boy walk and so he puts him on the donkey. Later, someone says the boy should be taught respect for his elders, and so the man rides while the boy walks. Then someone says, 'That's silly, you should both ride.' Then someone says 'You should be ashamed of yourselves overloading that poor donkey. Get off and carry the donkey.' Struggling under the weight of the donkey, they fall off a bridge and all three of them drown. I think that man had it easy when you consider all the expert advice we Dhamma students are offered. Once we have decided to study the teachings of the Buddha - as found in the ancient Theravadin texts - we should either stick to that decision, or give it away and take up new project. We shouldn't combine different, conflicting, teachings. --Evan Now I understand. When I found Buddhism (or it found me more to the point) I immediately recognised it as the path for me, however, even today I don't try to reject opposing position without reflecting on them and "giving them a chance". KH: I know these things can sound convincing, but are they consistent with the Pali Canon and ancient commentaries? From what I have seen and heard of those texts, jhana is a world away from anything ordinary people are capable of. I think it was a quote from the Visuddhimagga where I read that, of every one hundred thousand students (or was it ten thousand?) who undertake training in jhana (and I'm sure that means being accepted by an accomplished teacher; not just trying it on the lounge-room floor) only one will attain access concentration. Of every one hundred thousand who attain access concentration, only one will attain the first jhana. And so on up. --Evan I will admit to not having read the Visuddhimagga as yet. I nearly ordered it from Amazon yesterday but something stopped me. I will make that purchase soon. However the Nikayas mention the jhanas frequently. The Buddha instructed his disciples to practice the jhanas frequently. Even though the Buddha acknowledges the existence of dry insight meditators and arahants, I don't recall in the suttas that he ever instructed practicing in that way. Whenever he instructed his disciples to practice it was starting off with the jhanas. This comment could cause me a great deal of trouble but I will attempt to thwart that by stating that my memory is the weak point here. If the Buddha did otherwise, please give me the sutta reference and I will reread it. KH: Besides all that, we should consider the purpose of developing jhana. You have been told that it sharpens the mind for vipassana practice, but I'm sure that is not in the texts. According to the texts, jhana can become a 'vehicle for vipassana' only for those who have mastered it. You have to be able to enter and exit it at will so that the jhana factors can be taken as objects of vipassana. --Evan Well, can't the Noble 8-Fold Path be categorised into 3 groups? Virtue, Concentration and Wisdom with each group providing support for the next. Jhana can be used to develop the concentration required for the development of wisdom. KH: So, a little bit of practice at home, or even accomplishment in the early jhanas, has no special bearing on satipatthana. In fact, it can be detrimental: if you have the idea that dhammas are known by concentrating - rather than by understanding - then you are on the wrong path. Ken H --Evan Ken, I have not done "insight" meditation before but I assume that the examination of the rise and fall of phenomena can be called insight meditation. Based on this assumption, if a meditator sits and cannot discern the rise of each and every thought, the sustaining of each and every thought and the fall of each and every thought, how can s/he be said to be and insight meditator? If the meditator sits and notices the rise of each and every thought, the sustaining of each and every thought and the fall of each and every thought, then that meditator is noticing the rise and fall of phenomena of the mind. S/he is an insight meditator. S/he is also in jhana. A mind that is not powerful enough to examine the rise and fall of phenomena (mind or otherwise) is a mind that cannot do "proper" insight meditation. However, and this is the caveat, a dry insight meditator after much practice will develop a mind that is powerful enough to notice the rise and fall of phenomena and therefore can notice enough phenomena at a deep enough level to be called insight meditation. I was under the impression that it is more difficult to be a dry insight meditator than one that comes to wisdom by development of the jhanas. Your Visuddhimagga quote above with the "hundred thousand" would dispel this preconception of mine. I think I had better make that purchase sooner rather than later. Kind Regards, Evan 44285 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:50pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 164- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (n) sarahprocterabb... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] We then read about four kinds of people who are compared to these horses: * >"In this case, monks, here we may have a certain goodly thorough-bred man who hears it said that in such and such a village or township is a woman or a man afflicted or dead. Thereat he is stirred, he feels agitation. Thus agitated he strictly applies himself. Thus applied he both realizes in his own person the supreme truth, and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom… Again, monks, here we may have a goodly thoroughbred man who does not hear it said that in such or such a village or township is a woman or a man afflicted or dead, but with his own eyes sees it. Thereupon he is stirred… Then again, monks, here we may have a certain goodly thoroughbred man who does not hear it said… nor yet with his own eyes sees a woman or man afflicted or dead, but his own kinsman or bloodrelation is afflicted or dead. Thereupon he is stirred… Once more, monks, here we may have a goodly thoroughbred man who neither hears it said… nor yet with his own eyes sees… nor is his own kinsman or blood-relation afflicted or dead, but he himself is stricken with painful bodily feelings, grievous, sharp, racking, distracting, discomforting, that drain the life away. Thereat he is stirred, he feels agitation. Being so stirred he strictly applies himself. Thus applied he both realizes with his own person the supreme truth and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom…"< * Sickness, old age and death are realities of daily life which can remind us of the urgency to develop right understanding, they are like a “goadstick” which can “stir” us. They are the proximate cause of right effort, which is energy for mindfulness of the reality appearing at the present moment. ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44286 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 0:21am Subject: Musings6 - Learning Respect from our Mistakes! sarahprocterabb... Dear Nina, Chris, Sukin, Htoo & All, (This series of ‘Musings’ are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) In India I remember Nina and I discussed the errors we often make and our concerns about being careful with what we write. It was helpful to discuss this topic further. A.Sujin’s emphatic comment was to ask ‘who can know all?’. It is respectful to make mistakes and be humble as a result. We all make lots of mistakes and usually we don’t have any idea if we’ve said something wrong. When we know, it’s an opportunity to show respect to the Buddha. Our understanding is so very little and we can appreciate again his great wisdom. When we see the mistakes, it’s an opportunity to study further, appreciate any assistance and ‘begin again’! No one, not even the arahants, could ever know everything the Buddha knew, so let’s be humble. As I’m writing, I’m reflecting again on the simile of the dustrag which was briefly mentioned:. As Nina wrote before: http://www.dhammastudy.com/lv9.html “Khun Sujin had reminded us in India to become like a dustrag which serves for wiping the feet. A dustrag takes up filth and is undisturbed by it. One should become as humble as a dustrag. Sariputta, who could forgive anybody, no matter whether that person treated him in an unjust manner, compared himself with a dustrag. He had no conceit. When right understanding has been developed one will cling less to the self, there will be more humbleness.....”[see* for sutta extract below] **** Sometimes we all find it difficult to ask questions in discussions and so we reflected again on the various kinds of mana (conceit) that are likely to arise at such times when we are concerned about our limited knowledge, what others may think of us, comparing ourselves to others in anyway and so on. Of course, some people are just quiet by nature or prefer to listen. Only panna (understanding) can know the mental states at any time. From the reminders in Nina's earlier letter again: “It is beneficial to be reminded again of the dustrag, because humbleness seems to go against our nature. As understanding develops it must lead to letting go of namas and rupas. What we take for self are only impermanent namas and rupas. When their impermanence has been realized can they be as important as before? “ ***** When we make mistakes or have such concerns about how we will appear, what about the reality arising? We may think the problem is the error, concerns about leading others astray or the limited knowledge, but the dhamma is just the reality which is appearing at the time when we think like this. We were also repeatedly reminded that: * ‘only the word cannot help us to have an understanding of dhammas’. In other words, book knowledge is not the same as direct knowledge. I was told that some friends are no longer interested to participate in discussions or really reflect on the dhamma, preferring to translate Pali or develop some other expertise. Is there any real understanding of the dhammas that we study intently or do we often forget that the dhammas are not in 'the book'? Further reminders on this topic: *‘ When it comes to the Abhidhamma, we don’t need to call it anything’ *‘When there is awareness of seeing or visible object, it’s not a word, but a reality’ *‘The Dhamma depends on the understanding of reality. It must be the understanding of the 3 Pitakas.' ***** If we reflect further on the value of the Teachings, we’ll come back again and again to see how much or little we know because we’re reading and talking about the panna (wisdom) of the Buddha and arahants. So, to repeat the point, if we know how very limited our understanding is and welcome our mistakes or foolish pride, we’ll feel very humble and respectful when we read and reflect further and especially when panna grows and appreciates this more. We also discussed more on aspects of patience, such as wholesome effort and non-aversion, when we face difficulties or hear harsh speech. (to be contd) Metta, Sarah *From 'Sariputta's Lion's Roar', p231,’Numerical Discourses of the Buddha'(Bodhi)' "Just as, Lord, people throw upon the earth things clean and unclean, dung, urine, spittle, pus and blood, yet for all that the earth has no revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with a heart that is like the earth, vast, exalted and measureless, without hostility and without ill will. However, one in whom mindfulness directed on the body in regard to the body is not present may well hit a fellow monk and leave without an apology. "Just as. Lord, people use water to wash things clean and unclean, things soiled....... "Just as, Lord, fire burns things clean and unclean, things soiled.... "Just as, Lord, the wind blows over things clean and unclean..... "Lord, just as a duster wipes over things clean and unclean, things soiled with dung, urine, pus and blood, yet for all that the duster has no revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with a heart that is like a duster.... "Lord, just as an outcast boy or girl, begging-vessel in hand and clad in rags, enters a village with a humble heart; even so, Lord, do I dwell with a heart like that of an outcast youth, a heart that is vast, exalted and measureless, without hostility and without ill will...... ======== 44287 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings5 - Burning sarahprocterabb... Dear Nina. Thank you for your additional comments. Just on the last point about the derivation: --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > I looked up in PED jhaayati and found two meanings: burning and thinking > closely of an object. > There are two different stems. Thinking closely of an object jhaayati, > sk. > dhyaayati, and burning, of another stem (sk. ksaayati). Also text > references > are given but that is quite a study. ... S: Yes, I remember that Jim wrote about this before and I should have referred to this message again before mentioning any stem:-/: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3184?ordered=1 Actually I did check the derivation of jhana in the PTS dict, but under jhana, for the derivation, it just gave the note I mentioned: Jhana (p. 286) (nt.) [from jhayati,(1) BSk. dhyana. I didn’t go further. Now jhayati (1) which it refers to, is the first stem you mention above, derived from sk dhyaayati, but as you point out, this is given as being derived from didheti – shine, perceive and in meaning meditate, contemplate etc, rather than burning. Both in India (in brief) and on this visit (in more detail), K.Sujin was only interested in (emphatically) stressing the meaning of ‘burning’ for jhana. When she asked me initially on the meaning as I understood it, I briefly mentioned the other derivation and meaning of shining etc (which you’d reminded me of after I last wrote to BB), but as I say she just stressed the ‘burning’ aspect in the context of the two kinds of jhana. I’ll pursue it further next time (or we can in India perhaps). I like this quote from the Vism which I had intended to include and may if I re-write that Musing (leaving out any jhana derivation:-)): 1,7 “Develops Consciousness and Understanding : develops both concentration and insight. For it is concentration that is described here under the heading of ‘consciousness’, and insight under that of ‘understanding’. [4] Ardent (atapin) : possessing energy. For it is energy that is called ‘ardour (atapa)’ in the sense of burning up and consuming (atapana-paritapana) defilements. He has that, thus he is ardent. Sagacious: it is understanding that is called ‘sagacity’; possessing that, is the meaning.” Gunaratana also has a paragraph in his book on the Jhanas on the etymology*. It would be useful to have access perhaps to the section in Vin A which he mentions. He refers here to ‘jhapeti’ to burn up, but I see in PTS dict that jhapeti can mean jhayati: ‘to destroy by means of jhana’. When the Pali gives jhaayati or jhaayattha in context, I also wonder how anyone knows which stem the form used is derived from. For example, can we translate the line as” “Burn up or destroy the mental defilements (by developing samatha and insight), Ananda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later....”???? Metta, Sarah *>Etymology of Jhana The great Buddhist commentator Buddhaghosa traces the Pali word "jhana" (Skt. dhyana) to two verbal forms. One, the etymologically correct derivation, is the verb jhayati, meaning to think or meditate; the other is a more playful derivation, intended to illuminate its function rather than its verbal source, from the verb jhapeti meaning to burn up. He explains: "It burns up opposing states, thus it is jhana" (Vin.A. i, 116), the purport being that jhana "burns up" or destroys the mental defilements preventing the developing the development of serenity and insight. In the same passage Buddhaghosa says that jhana has the characteristic mark of contemplation (upanijjhana). Contemplation, he states, is twofold: the contemplation of the object and the contemplation of the characteristics of phenomena. The former is exercised by the eight attainments of serenity together with their access, since these contemplate the object used as the basis for developing concentration; for this reason these attainments are given the name "jhana" in the mainstream of Pali meditative exposition. However, Buddhaghosa also allows that the term "jhana" can be extended loosely to insight (vipassana), the paths and the fruits on the ground that these perform the work of contemplating the characteristics of things the three marks of impermanence, suffering and non-self in the case of insight, Nibbana in the case of the paths and fruits. In brief the twofold meaning of jhana as "contemplation" and "burning up" can be brought into connection with the meditative process as follows. By fixing his mind on the object the meditator reduces and eliminates the lower mental qualities such as the five hindrances and promotes the growth of the higher qualities such as the jhana factors, which lead the mind to complete absorption in the object. Then by contemplating the characteristics of phenomena with insight, the meditator eventually reaches the supramundane jhana of the four paths, and with this jhana he burns up the defilements and attains the liberating experience of the fruits. < 44288 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H christine_forsy... Hello KenH, :-) I think I prefer this Sufi tale of Mulla Nasruddin to the Aesops' fable you told us - has a kinder ending ... 'Mulla and his son were riding the donkey to the town market. A group of people passed. Mulla heard them whisper: "what times are these ? look at those two, have no mercy on the poor animal !" Mulla hearing this tells his son to get off and continue the journey on foot. Another group of people passing by and seeing this comment: "What times are these ? look at this man. His poor son with his frail body has to walk while he at his best age is riding the donkey !" Hearing this mulla tells his son to ride the donkey and he himself gets off to walk the rest of the way. A third group of people seeing this remark: "What times are these ? This young man is riding the donkey while his sickly old father has to walk ! " Hearing this mulla tells his son to get off the animal and they both walk with the donkey trailing behind. Another group passing by point to them laughing: "look at these idiots. They have a donkey and they are walking all the way to the market !"' INTERPRETATIONS: People bray like donkeys. Listen to your heart As many mouths, as many opinions http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Nasrudin#people.27s_talk metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > Struggling under the weight of the donkey, they > fall off a bridge and all three of them drown. 44289 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings3 - Recollection of Death and other special reflections sarahprocterabb... Hi Kel, --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > > I think it's pretty clear what is meant and what should be done. > Only remaining question to me is whether or not someone can do it. ... S: What do you think? Can anyone do anything? Metta, Sarah S:> > Even the first few lines in chapter 111 need a lot of discussion, > > understanding and reflection, I think. How about you? 44290 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vipassana / Sarah sarahprocterabb... Hi Kel, --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > > > S: in short, I'm sticking to my story for now:-). > I would not expect anything less. ... S: LOL - anyway, I'll get back to that later. I certainly raised all the references which you and Dhammanando had pointed me to. ... > > > S: references which make it clear that those with 2 roots cannot > reach > > enlightenment or attain jhanas. The rest we infer differently > >according to our understanding. > Yes that's what I'm told too. I don't infer anything, I just > recite what I'm taught. ... S: Isn't that inferring if you agree with what you recite? ... > > > more specific references, we can just leave it open and agree we > don't > > know:-/. > Apparently there isn't any conclusive references so I'll happily > leave it at that also. ... S: From this I gather that your teacher is not saying categorically that satipatthana and stages of insight can be obtained with 2 roots as you indicated before, so we're all in agreement:-). I appreciate your going back and raising it again. Your teachers know the texts extremely well, so I'm grateful that you can help check points with them. Metta, Sarah ====== 44291 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: Musings6 - Learning Respect from our Mistakes! christine_forsy... Hello Sarah, and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: >>>snipped for brevity only<<< >Sometimes we all find it difficult to ask questions in discussions >and so we reflected again on the various kinds of mana (conceit) >that are likely to arise at such times when we are concerned about >our limited knowledge,what others may think of us, comparing >ourselves to others in anyway and so on. Of course, some people are >just quiet by nature or prefer to listen. Only panna >(understanding) can >know the mental states at any time. I remember this discussion and the hesitancy I felt about asking questions with a number of members present (some with vibrant outgoing personalities) who had known each other and had been 'doing Dhamma' for thirty years or more. But I also remember feeling exactly the same and making the same discoveries about what Mana actually is and realising that I could 'see' mana in [just about] everything I said and did, when I first visited Bangkok. Looking through the Useful Posts on Conceit (mana), I came across this oldie - three years ago - and wonder why I don't feel any further 'advanced'. When will I be done with it?! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17732 metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 44292 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:24am Subject: Re:thinking processes. gazita2002 Dear Tep, I think you may have taken my comment "too busy doing nothing", a little too seriously - it was meant to be a tiny joke - but never mind. I was in fact, visiting a friend who used to be a monk in T'land and Sri Lanka & who disrobed a few years ago. We discussed the cetasika Sanna, which arises with every citta, and how it is Sanna that allows us to remember ea. other when we meet. It is great having a friend who can say to you, while waiting at the bus stop, that in fact there is no 'us' to wait & no bus or bus stop, that what we think about is just an illusion. I think your quote from the Theragatha is a wonderful reminder. I will write it in my diary, so I can read it often and hopefully, be a condition for me not to be heedless. May we all be well and happy, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Azita - > > Because RobK advised as follows: > > -- This life is only a tiny moment in samsara and so we need to strive to > find the right way. > > And because you admitted that you were then "too busy doing > nothing". > > Furthermore, according to Theragatha VI.13 : > > "Make the day not-in-vain, a little or a lot. > However much the day passes, that's how much less is life. > Your last day approaches. This isn't your time to be heedless". > > > Warm regards, > > > Tep > 44293 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau Hi Evan, -------------------------------- E: > When I found Buddhism (or it found me more to the point) I immediately recognised it as the path for me, however, even today I don't try to reject opposing position without reflecting on them and "giving them a chance". ------------------ KH: I agree there is no need for censorship. We can read as many philosophies we like, but we should not be thinking, "All teachings lead to the same goal," or anything silly like that. ----------------------- E: > the Nikayas mention the jhanas frequently. The Buddha instructed his disciples to practice the jhanas frequently. Even though the Buddha acknowledges the existence of dry insight meditators and arahants, I don't recall in the suttas that he ever instructed practicing in that way. Whenever he instructed his disciples to practice it was starting off with the jhanas. This comment could cause me a great deal of trouble but I will attempt to thwart that by stating that my memory is the weak point here. If the Buddha did otherwise, please give me the sutta reference and I will reread it. ---------------- KH: In the useful posts file, under "Dry Insight," there is one post from Nina (12371) and two from Robert K (30793 and 30799). I think they will answer your questions. -------------------------------- E: > Well, can't the Noble 8-Fold Path be categorised into 3 groups? Virtue, Concentration and Wisdom with each group providing support for the next. Jhana can be used to develop the concentration required for the development of wisdom. --------------------------------------------------------- No, it doesn't work that way. Every moment of right understanding has virtue, concentration and wisdom. (To be more specific; it has the cetasikas, adosa, samadhi and panna and sometimes virati.) That is the way the Eightfold Path is developed - all the factors together, not as eight individual steps. -------------------------------------------- E: > I have not done "insight" meditation before but I assume that the examination of the rise and fall of phenomena can be called insight meditation. Based on this assumption, if a meditator sits and cannot discern the rise of each and every thought, the sustaining of each and every thought and the fall of each and every thought, how can s/he be said to be and insight meditator? -------------------------------------------- KH: That is the version of insight meditation you will see everywhere except in the original texts. In fact, meditation (mental development, bhavana) is a momentary phenomenon (just like everything else that is absolutely real). In a moment of consciousness at any one of the six door, panna and sati arise to experience an object. At the intellectual level the object is an idea (e.g., some part of the Buddha's teaching) and at the practice level (satipatthana) the object is a nama or a rupa. In either case, insight meditation is a moment of conditioned reality; it is not a formal procedure of sitting quietly and/or concentrating. It can happen at any time, provided the right conditions have been accumulated. There must be no belief in control over conditioned dhammas: that would contradict everything the Buddha taught. Ken H 44294 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau Hi Christine, How on earth did you find that? On second thoughts, don't tell me: I will never be internet proficient. Is that ending kind enough for you? Or should the donkey have a straw hat with holes for his ears? :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello KenH, :-) > > I think I prefer this Sufi tale of Mulla Nasruddin to the Aesops' > fable you told us - has a kinder ending ... > > 'Mulla and his son were riding the donkey to the town market. A 44295 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:46am Subject: Re: Musings6 - Learning Respect from our Mistakes! htootintnaing --- snip --- snip --- In other words, book knowledge is not the same as direct knowledge. I was told that some friends are no longer interested to participate in discussions or really reflect on the dhamma, preferring to translate Pali or develop some other expertise. Is there any real understanding of the dhammas that we study intently or do we often forget that the dhammas are not in 'the book'? --- snip --- snip --- Metta, Sarah --- snip --- snip --- -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah and All, Yes. We often forget that the dhammas are not in 'the book'. When I first came here, I posted a topic as 'Dhamma is nowhere but in our mind'. But it has to be seen as not everyone is seeing the Dhamma. With respect, Htoo Naing PS: I like the whole post, Sarah. Especially dustrag, earth, fire, wind, water etc. 44296 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: jhana and bodily movement. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear Htoo and Jon, I remember discussing with A. Sujin about Sariputta who attained jhana and was also fanning the Buddha. Dighanakasutta. As I understood, he could enter and emerge from jhana very quickly and do the fanning movement with kaamavacara cittas in between. Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your message. It is clear enough to understand how jhana cittas and kaamaavacara cittas can arise in very close successions. With much respect, Htoo 44297 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:05am Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings5 - Burning htootintnaing .... S: Is there any 'formally' in the Pali? :-)) Metta, Sarah ======== -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah, You know. I know. Most know. Pali does not say 'formal'. But Suttas do say, 'Meditate, Ananda, meditate. Otherwise you will regret' ; 'Meditate, Cunda, meditate. Otherwise you will regret. This is our instruction to you'. If one does not meditate, he or she is not following The Buddha's word. But what does 'meditate' mean here? Does that mean 'go to a forest, go to the foot of a tree, go to a silent place, go to an unoccupied place and sit in a crosslegged position with erect body posture and putting the mind in front (abhimukhii)? With much respect, Htoo Naing 44298 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings and salutations sarahprocterabb... Hi Lisa (M?),(Chris & Evan in passing) Many thanks for your great intro about your background in Dhamma and for the quotes at the end. I'm sure others will be very interested in it too. I hope you enjoy your time and find it useful here on DSG. Please join in any threads or start your own anytime. If you're unfamiliar with so many Pali words being used, I recommend you print out the Pali glossary in the 'files' and keep a handy link to Nyantiloka's dictionary for any detail. Even better, feel very free to ask for explanations anytime. Very glad to see your enthusiasm for the Nikayas and Dhp. Pls keep giving us any favourite quotes. Whereabouts in the US do you live? I think we have members in most states. Jon and I live in Hong Kong and others are all over the world, but with quite a noisy Australian 'mafia' posting at the moment:-)[and yes, Chris and Evan, Jon knew he was a 'Crow-Eater', but it was news to me that I was married to one:-/]. Thank you again for telling us about yourself. Metta, Sarah p.s Another Lisa joined us fairly recently and there may still be Dan's wife, Lisa D lurking, so I added a tentative (M?).... --- Lisa wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > My name is Lisa I practice Vipassana meditation taught by SN Goenka > for almost 15 years. For six months prior to going to my first > meditaton retreat I studied from the Nikayas and in particular from > the Majjhima Nikaya. My favorite is the Dhammapada for it's simple and > clear message of faith, duty and virtue. The Dhammapada plus the > Nikayas gave me inspiration and faith to continue my study and also > work very hard to learn meditation, which I had never done before. <...> 44299 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:22am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (319) htootintnaing Follow up clarification: Htoo wrote: Dear Dhamma Friends, The aim of writing Dhamma Thread posts is to go through necessary Dhamma for understanding and then to move on to merging with daily activities. -- snip -- The Buddha saw all beings at their cuti, at their patisandhi when dibbacakkhu nana arose in the middle watch of His 35th birthday, on which He became a Sammasambuddha. There is a unique system which life should be followed after which life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Deva means 'celestiel being' and cakkhu means 'eye'. Deva-cakkhu or dibbacakkhu means 'the eye of deva'. This is just a name for understanding. This is a kind of nana or a kind of jhana power that can penetrate all darkness, all hidden sight, all far sight as far as on the other side of the whole universe. Dibbacakkhu can see inside the body and outside the body. Especially Dibbacakkhu of The Buddha has no obstruction at all. Once there was a competition between a great Brahma and The Buddha. Actually The Buddha was not competing but the Brahma did. They hid each in turn. At first each saw another wherever he hid. Just before the end of competition, the Brahma created himself a very very very small and tiny and minute being and hid in a very very small seed. But The Buddha smiled and saw him. And said, 'come out Mr Brahma, you are in that seed and I do see you hiding there.' The Brahma was shocked. The Buddha said, 'now you should try to look for me'. The Brahma did not find The Buddha and he went here and there. He looked up and down. He went to the end of the universe and back and forth. But he did so in vain and he did not find The Buddha. 'O! Lord Buddha. I am defeated. Where do you hide?' The Buddha just said, 'I am walking on your eye-brow. You did not find me because you are not pure and your mind is defiled with dirt. Try to clear away all these defilements including 'maana' or 'conceit' that makes you proud and tried to compete someone like The Buddha'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44300 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:35am Subject: Dhamma Thread (320) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 separate realms, where different beings arise and persist there as long as they have not moved to another realm or the same realm. When one being dies and is reborn in the same realm, it is not him that apparently living 2 lifespans. The first lifespan was occupied by a being and next lifespan is occupied by a separate being. When we closely look into the matter there is no being at all. But just arising and passing away of different cittas, which again depend on different rupas in different ways. Some rupa stands as an object or arammana for cittas and some rupa stands as a vatthu or base, where citta and cetasikas, that is nama dhamma have to depend on, dwell on, stand on, ground on, base on, house on, or home on. Rupa dhamma have been discussed to some details in earlier posts in Dhamma Thread. Nama and rupa act together and perform their specific function according to conditions that arise. Nama dhamma and rupa dhamma work together and this condition is called vippayutta paccaya or dissociation condition. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44301 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:55am Subject: Dhamma Thread (321) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi or 'neither perception nor non-perception' non-material realm. 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi or 'nothingness' non-material realm 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi or 'sphere of boundless consciousness' non-material realm 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi or 'sphere of boundless space' non-material realm If someone is in 28th realm and he dies, where will he go or where is he going to be reborn in his next life? Non-material being in 28th realm can be reborn in the same realm with the same lifespan. This happens because he has long been staying in arupa jhana and when marana or death approaches, he continues to develop arupa jhana and when dies, he is reborn in the same realm. Some non-material beings in 28th realm, during the course of life, discover higher arupa jhana and they develop higher arupa jhana and when they die they can be reborn in non-material realm of their attained arupa jhana. So beings in 28th realm can be reborn in 28th, 29th, 30th and 31st bhumi or realm. But these beings will not develop rupa jhana as they already excluded rupa jhana. So they will never be reborn in rupa brahma bhumi or fine material realms. Arupa brahma do have kamavacara cittas. When kamavacara mahakusala cittas arise when they are dying, then they can be reborn in kama bhumis. But not in woeful planes of existence. When they are reborn in kama bhumi, they will be reborn with tihetuka patisandhi. So where do they go, after death in their arupa brahma bhumi. 1. the same realm or higher( so if 28th realm then to 28th realm) 2. to 29th realm 3. to 30th realm 4. to 31st realm 5. 6th deva realm (paranimmitavassavatii deva realm) 6. 5th deva realm (nimmanarati deva realm) 7. 4th deva realm (tusitaa deva realm) 8. 3rd deva realm (yaamaa deva realm) 9. 2nd deva realm (taavatimsaa deva realm) 10.1st deva realm (catumahaaraajika deva realm) 11. to manussa bhumi or human realm When they are reborn in kaama bhumi or sensuous planes, they are reborn with tihetuka patisandhi cittas. So all their bhavanga cittas will also be tihetuka cittas and when they die tihetuka cucti citta will arise as the last moment consciousness. Arupa brahmas cannot go to or cannot be reborn in 4 apaaya bhumi or 4 woeful planes of existence. They cannot be reborn in rupa brahma bhumi. They cannot be reborn in asannasatta brahma bhumi. Otherwise they can be reborn in arupa realms of the same or higher. But they cannot be reborn in the lower arupa realms. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44302 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Evan, Matthew, and James (and all) - In a message dated 4/11/05 11:32:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, evan.stamatopoulos@... writes: > Matthew: > "Mind" is not something that just sprang into existence with humans. > > Evan: > Indeed, humans are something that spring into existence with mind. > > Kind Regards, > > Evan > ======================= Evan, my perspective is closer to yours than Matthew's. But what I would like to point out is that a certain degree of closeness of point of view on basics is required for discussions that depend on such core views. One whose basic framework is materialism will rarely interact usefully with one whose basic framework is a (philosophical) idealism or is a radical phenomenalism on an issue for which core view has great impact. It is almost like a German speaking to a Cantonese, each not knowing the other's language - at least that is how it seems to me. Typically, an idealist or phenomenalist perspective appears extremely odd if not utterly absurd to a materialist. (Less so in the opposite direction, because modern society is materialist-oriented, philosophically.) What may help in explaining an idealist/phenomenalist perspective to a materialist Buddhist is how an idealist/phenomenalist perspective makes an understanding of "rebirth" easier. (Of course, many materialist Buddhists reject rebirth as just a metaphor or a case of the Buddha not really meaning it when he talks about it. This stands to reason, because one would be extraordinarily hard pressed to come up with a physical mechanism accounting for rebirth.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44303 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:12am Subject: Dhamma Thread (322) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa These 5 realms are fine material realms of pure abode. They are called suddavaasa bhumi or 'pure abode'. They are called pure dweller because they all are ariya brahma. Anagams in other realms are reborn in these 5 realms. Who can come to these 5 realms? Where do these rupa brahmas go after their death? They are initially anagams and in the course of their long life in these 5 realms, they all become arahats and they all do parinibbana or final death in these 5 realms and there is no more rebirth after the life in '5 pure abode' or 'suddhavaasa bhuumi'. Who can come to these 5 realms. 1. anaagams from muanussa bhumi or human realm 2. anaagams from catumaharajika deva realm 3. anagams from tavatimsa deva realm 4. anagams from yama deva realm 5. anagams from tusita deva realm 6. anagams from nimmanarati deva realm 7. anagams from paranimmitavassavatii deva realm 8. anagams from brahma-parisajjaa rupa brahma realm 9. anagams from brahma-purohitaa rupa brahma realm 10.anagams from maha-brahma rupa brahma realm 11.anagams from parittaabhaa rupa brahma realm 12.anagams from appamaanaabhaa rupa brahma realm 13.anagams from aabhassaraa rupa brahma realm 14.anagams from paritasubhaa rupa brahma realm 15.anagams from appamaanasubhaa rupa brahma realm 16.anagams from subhakinhnaa rupa brahma realm 17.anagams from vehapphalaa rupa brahma realm 18.anagams from akasanancayatana arupa brahma realm 19.anagams from vinnanancayatana arupa brahma realm 20.anagams from akincinnayatana arupa brahma realm 21.anagams from nevasannanasannayatana arupa brahma realm All other beings from unstated bhumi cannot come to these 5 pure abode. And other lower ariyas like sakadagams and sotapams in the stated realms of 21 cannot come to these 5 realms. Asannasattas cannot be reborn in these ariya bhumis. Apaaya beings cannot be reborn in these 5 pure abode. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44304 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:42am Subject: Re: Farewell, I hope not. nilovg Dear Joop. I also hope you will not leave. I like provocative messages, otherwise we shall all go to sleep! Like Jon I am also curious about old Indian culture, it must be good. I have a weak spot for anything Indian. Looking forward to many more unorthodox remarks from you, Nina. op 11-04-2005 23:59 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jsabbott@...: > I do hope you won't leave. 44305 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:49am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma buddhatrue Hi Matthew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Miller wrote: > "Mind" is not something that just sprang into existence with humans. > We can see the gradual emergence of mental functions coinciding with > the gradual evolution of brain structure. As we move from simple > organisms up the phylogenic chain, we see more elaborate cognitive > functions emerging. The simplest brains merely control and > coordinate movement and body functions such as heartbeat, blood > pressure, fluid balance and body temperature. As the brain evolved in > complexity, and especially with the emergence of larger cortices in > mammals, we see the gradual emergence of "higher" functions like > cognition, emotion, memory, motor learning and other sorts of > learning. The difference between our minds and those of our nearest > animal relatives is only one of degrees. > > Matthew We seem to be getting off the beaten track. I don't disagree with evolution and I don't know why any Buddhist would disagree with evolution. Yes, humans and animals (and to a lesser extent, insects) have many things in common. So? That still doesn't mean that humans are animals or insects in all ways. I thought the point that we were arguing is that you believe the brain is the mind and I believe they are not the same thing. In the immaterial planes, the mind exists with no physical body whatsoever. That is enough to prove that the brain isn't the mind. The brain is simply a physical manifestation of the mind, and the mind (consciousness and mental factors) are attached to that physical manifestation in this realm of existence. It is kamma that determines how long the mind will exist within any particular sphere of being. Really, this is Buddhism basics. I linked you to that article to read about the 31 Planes of Existence and you wrote about people who "cling to Buddhist metaphysics". ;-)) I looked at your Yahoo profile and it shows that you are very interested in Buddhism, so I am somewhat perplexed as to why this is an issue for you. One cannot pick and choose what to believe from the Buddha because everything he taught fits together. Karma may seem metaphysical but it is reality; rebirth may seem metaphysical but it is reality; enlightenment may seem metaphysical but it is reality. Just keep practicing meditation and I'm sure your doubts will disappear. Metta, James 44306 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:40am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum James: > Yes, humans and animals (and to a lesser extent, > insects) have many things in common. Umm, insects (and homo sapiens) *are* animals. They are members of the kingdom Animalia. Matthew 44307 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:51am Subject: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma rjkjp1 Dear Matthew, Just bringing up a point from one of your old posts. You mention vipassana, In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Miller wrote: > > Vipassana and other forms of meditation could be considered > introspective, biofeedback techniques to directly alter one's own > brain chemistry and turn off these areas. > > Why would we want to do this? Well, for one thing, it tends to be a > pleasant experience (though for some people, it may lead to psychotic > episodes). > Of course, this is not always the case. A lifetime of tinkering with > one's own brain chemistry may cause some people to become withdrawn, > anti-social or even delusional. Arguably, the Buddha himself > suffered from delusions such as possessing omniscience and > superpowers, seeing all of his former "rebirths," visiting alternate > universes and meeting Devas. > >_________ If we agree that the Buddha was the teacher and master of vipassana then by your understanding wouldn't vipassana be the last thing one would want to do? robertk 44308 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:06am Subject: Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum robertk: > If we agree that the Buddha was the teacher and master of vipassana > then by your understanding wouldn't vipassana be the last thing one > would want to do? Not necessarily. But I do think that the potential dangers of intensive meditation should not be taken lightly, especially if someone has a pre-existing psychiatric problem, such as schizophrenia. In an earlier post, James wrote: > I have also had similar experiences of > terror during meditation... > Insight, at the beginning stages, is > naturally unsettling and disturbing > and downright terrifying. For some people, such experiences might cause long-term psychological problems. I have also read reports of psychotic episodes, hallucinations, chronic headaches and other neurological problems brought on or exacerbated by meditation. I'll try to track down the references if anyone is interested. Matthew 44309 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:22am Subject: Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Here's a summary of some of the negative side effects of meditation that have been reported: "Not all effects of the practice of meditation are beneficial. Shapiro (1992) found that 62.9% of the subjects reported adverse effects during and after meditation and 7.4% experienced profoundly adverse effects. The length of practice (from 16 to 105 months) did not make any difference to the quality and frequency of adverse effects. These adverse effects were relaxation-induced anxiety and panic; paradoxical increases in tension; less motivation in life; boredom; pain; impaired reality testing; confusion and disorientation; feeling 'spaced out'; depression; increased negativity; being more judgmental; and, ironically, feeling addicted to meditation. "Other adverse effects described (Craven, 1989) are uncomfortable kinaesthetic sensations, mild dissociation, feelings of guilt and, via anxiety-provoking phenomena, psychosis-like symptoms, grandiosity, elation, destructive behaviour and suicidal feelings. Kutz et al. (1985a,b) described feelings of defencelessness, which in turn produce unpleasant affective experiences, such as fear, anger, apprehension and despair. Sobbing and hidden memories and themes from the past, such as incest, rejection, and abandonment appeared in intense, vivid forms and challenged the subject's previously constructed image of their past and themselves. On the other hand, it is not uncommon to encounter a meditator who claims that has found 'the answers' when in fact he has been actively engaged in a subtle manoeuvre of avoiding his basic questions." from "Meditation: concepts, effects and uses in therapy" by Alberto Perez-De-Albeniz and Jeremy Holmes International Journal of Psychotherapy, Mar2000, Vol. 5 Issue 1, p49, 10p full article: http://www.trancenet.org/research/2000perezdealbeniz.shtml#side- effects Matthew 44310 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 0:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Geoff, I have to take time to study the texts you gave. I like your approach, investigating the Tipitaka, and you ask your questions not for the sake of debating. op 11-04-2005 23:18 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: >> ?604: > what is diversity of perceptions? The perception, perceiving, state >> of perceiving of one who has not attained (to jhaana) but who is >> possessed of mind-element (mano-dhaatu) and possessed of >> mano-viñ±¡¡.na-dhaatu).> > > Isn't this quote also referring to attainment of perception of > infinite space? N: Yes, but see the crux below. G: If so, then I don't follow your comment after this > verse: > N: These arise in a sens-door process, having sense objects. This in >> contrast to jhana subjects of meditation. perceiving of one who has not attained (to jhaana) but who is >> possessed of mind-element (mano-dhaatu) and possessed of >> mano-viññaa.na-dhaatu) The person who has *not* attained to jhana. Thus, the person who has attained does not experience sense objects. Here is the contrast that may help. I try another approach but I do not know whether you find this helpful. There are four planes of citta: sensuous plane (kaamaavacara), citta that experiences sense objects. Rupajhaana plane, arupajhaanaplane, lokuttara plane. Only the first plane experiences sense objects. In the Path of Discrimination, p. 82, three planes of citta (not the unincluded, which is lokuttara) are combined with the planes of existence. But as to the material sphere plane (the fine material, or rupa-jhana) it is said:< included are those who have reached this in meditation, are abiding in comfort here and now, which ideas have their sphere here...> The Dhammasangani (Ch II and III0 and the Book of Analysis give paralel texts. When a person has attained jhana he can have a blow on his head (I read about Sariputta, but I am not sure where) and not feel anything. No sense objects. There may be thunder or the rolling of hundreds of chariots, but he will not hear anything. See: The Mahaaparinibbaana sutta, Pukhusa who could attain jhana and did not hear anything. Nina. 44311 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 0:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, Vis. III, note 4. nilovg Hi Larry and Sarah, First of all Sarah, thank you, very interesting texts. op 12-04-2005 01:35 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > I disagree. I think tranquility here is the tranquility cetasikas, not a > concept. N: Right, there are two cetasikas which are calm. They accompany each sobhana citta. Citta intent on daana, on siila and on bhaavana. When we are generous, there is a degree of calm, but such moments are very short, and thus the characteristic of calm is not very noticeable. in Jhaana calm is more developed. For the development of jhana it is essential to know the characteristic of calm and not to take lobha for calm. L: As for the role of vitakka and vicara in jhana I found this note in > Vism. but the sutta notation doesn't conform; any idea where it comes > from? > > Vism.III, note 4. 'Applied thought that occurs as though absorbing > (appento) assocated states in the object is absorption (appanaa). > Accordingly it is described as "absorption, absorbing (appanaa > vyappanaa)" (M.iii,73). N: Very good. PED gives for appanaa: fix, turn or direct the mind. Co to Abh. Sangaha, T.A. p. 35: And, also the burning up comes here! <.. and it is jhaana because of contemplating the object and burning up (jhaapana) the enemies [i.e. the hindrances]. For the designation 'jhaana' refers simply to the arising together of the factors of jhaana, just as the designation 'chariot' refers to the arising together of the parts such as the wheel rim, etc. Therefore it is said in the Vibhanga that "jhaana is application of thought, examining, joy, happiness, and one-pointedness'. ..> The M III text brings me to vitakka, right thinking. Also the Milinda text 62. Thus the word absorption, appanaa can denote vitakka and vicaara. But as said before, when there is more skill and calm has grown he can be absorbed without these two grosser factors. Now the continuation of footnote 4: Nina. 44312 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 0:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking processes. nilovg Dear Azita and Tep, yes, wonderful verse, thanks. Nina. op 12-04-2005 12:24 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@...: > Furthermore, according to Theragatha VI.13 : >> >> "Make the day not-in-vain, a little or a lot. >> However much the day passes, that's how much less is life. >> Your last day approaches. This isn't your time to be heedless". >> 44313 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:04pm Subject: Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma buddhatrue Hi Matthew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Miller" wrote: > > Here's a summary of some of the negative side effects of meditation > that have been reported: Hi Matthew, Thanks for the link to this interesting article; however, there is a significant problem with the findings you quote. As the article states: "The side-effect profile summarised also resembles many of the neurotic/anxiety constellation of symptoms. None of the studies reviewed tried to disentangle the effects of meditation per se from the influence of the presenting problem or/and premorbid personality of the subjects. It is unclear whether certain personality types are more likely to try meditation or whether the effect of meditation increases the awareness of those feelings, symptoms and personality traits (Morse, 1984)." http://www.trancenet.org/research/2000perezdealbeniz.shtml#side- In other words, these studies were done on people who were in psychotherapy for various psychological problems and meditation is not a cure for psychological problems. To be blunt, someone who is crazy before meditation is going to be just as crazy after meditation. The meditation isn't necessarily going to make that person crazy and these studies don't make an effort to determine the effects of the meditation separate from the psychological state of the patients studied. Also, the article had some rather positive things to say about meditation: "Most literature in scientific journals and research about meditation has been based on this personal health-enhancing aspect (Epstein, 1990; Globus, 1980; Leuschitz & Harlman, 1996; Russell, 1986; Shapiro, 1994; Tyler, 1977; West, 1987). Atwood & Maltin (1991) described how meditation helps the patient to understand that there are no quick solutions. It develops patience: to be aware of the problem before attempting to solve it. It promotes a non- judgmental attitude, it helps the patient to come to terms with 'what is', rather than to fight hopelessly for 'what might be', or 'might have been'. It helps people to be comfortable with ambiguity, ignorance and uncertainty. Meditators learn to recognise and trust their inner nature and wisdom. Meditation fosters the recognition of personal responsibility. The meditator's feelings during and about meditation itself cannot be displaced or disowned." Metta, James 44314 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:40pm Subject: Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum James: > the article had some rather positive things to say about > meditation Yes, it did. However, I was quoting the article in the context of a discussion of the possible negative side-effects of meditation. James: > In other words, these studies were done on people who were in > psychotherapy for various psychological problems and meditation is > not a cure for psychological problems. To be blunt, someone who is > crazy before meditation is going to be just as crazy after > meditation. The meditation isn't necessarily going to make that > person crazy There is another study at the same website. It was done in Germany and involved 67 meditators who were "normal" (that is, not exclusively selected from psychiatric patients). The study examined the effect of Transcendental Meditation (TM) in various areas of life. Many of the findings were similar to the other studies I cited: 76% of cases investigated had psychological or psychiatric disorders which occurred during the TM phase and as a result of the practice of TM In some cases psychiatric disorders already present came to a state of total breakdown. 26% had nervous breakdowns. Before the TM phase, 6 people were in therapeutic care, during or after the TM phase the number of those who visited a doctor because of psychological or psychiatric disorder rose to 29. The percentage of people who underwent therapy as a result of such disorders therefore rose from 9% to 43%. 63% experienced serious physical complaints. 70% recorded a worsening ability to concentrate. Researchers found a startling drop in honesty among long-term meditators. The TM movement attempted to suppress this report in German courts, but its findings were upheld by the German high court (The Federal Republic of Germany: OVG Muenster: 5 A 1152/84, The Bundesverwaltungsgericht: 23.5.87 7 C 2.87, The Bundesverfassungsgericht: 1 BvR 881/89). See here: http://www.trancenet.org/research/chap1.shtml Matthew 44315 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:12pm Subject: Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma buddhatrue Hi Matthew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Miller" wrote: > > James: > > the article had some rather positive things to say about > > meditation > > Yes, it did. However, I was quoting the article in the context of a > discussion of the possible negative side-effects of meditation. Honestly, I haven't been following the entire discussion. Sorry if my comments seemed out of place but I thought they were appropriate- regardless of the prior discussion. > > James: > > In other words, these studies were done on people who were in > > psychotherapy for various psychological problems and meditation is > > not a cure for psychological problems. To be blunt, someone who is > > crazy before meditation is going to be just as crazy after > > meditation. The meditation isn't necessarily going to make that > > person crazy > > There is another study at the same website. It was done in Germany > and involved 67 meditators who were "normal" (that is, not exclusively > selected from psychiatric patients). The study examined the effect of > Transcendental Meditation (TM) in various areas of life. Many of the > findings were similar to the other studies I cited: Thanks for the information but Transcendental Meditation isn't Vipassana. > > Matthew Metta, James 44316 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:32pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... Hi Ken, KH: I agree there is no need for censorship. We can read as many philosophies we like, but we should not be thinking, "All teachings lead to the same goal," or anything silly like that. --Evan What I mean is that I listen to different viewpoints from Theravadan Buddhist monks. I don't take too much notice of doctrines outside Buddhism. I have done my enquiry and have proven to myself conclusively that Buddhism is the only doctrine on this planet that is complete, well expounded, consistent and leads to release. However, within Buddhism there are a number of paths that can lead to liberation and that is why I listen to different points of view. It is up to the individual to find a path that is suitable for their temperament. KH: In the useful posts file, under "Dry Insight," there is one post from Nina (12371) and two from Robert K (30793 and 30799). I think they will answer your questions. --Evan The references and quotes in these posts agree with what has been said. The Buddha admitted that there are dry insight meditators and arahants but I do not recall a sutta in which he instructed Bukkhus to practice in this way. There are however numerous suttas in which the Buddha instructs a bhikkhu to sit at the foot of a tree or in a hut in seclusion and develop the jhanas 1, 2, 3 etc. The last reference listed refers to post-canonical Pali literature - that's fine but one must be a little more careful with such texts. KH: No, it doesn't work that way. Every moment of right understanding has virtue, concentration and wisdom. (To be more specific; it has the cetasikas, adosa, samadhi and panna and sometimes virati.) That is the way the Eightfold Path is developed - all the factors together, not as eight individual steps. --Evan That is true but without virtue it would be very difficult to develop concentration and without virtue and concentration it would be impossible to develop wisdom. I may not have expressed the concept too well initially but when I said that each supports the other I did not mean that they are to be developed independently. KH: That is the version of insight meditation you will see everywhere except in the original texts. In fact, meditation (mental development, bhavana) is a momentary phenomenon (just like everything else that is absolutely real). In a moment of consciousness at any one of the six door, panna and sati arise to experience an object. At the intellectual level the object is an idea (e.g., some part of the Buddha's teaching) and at the practice level (satipatthana) the object is a nama or a rupa. In either case, insight meditation is a moment of conditioned reality; it is not a formal procedure of sitting quietly and/or concentrating. It can happen at any time, provided the right conditions have been accumulated. There must be no belief in control over conditioned dhammas: that would contradict everything the Buddha taught. Ken H --Evan I'm not sure why you say that this kind of insight meditation is not in the texts or is not the same as what you have described. First of all, all phenomena are momentary (assuming that the deathless state is not a phenomenon). I don't know whether the noticing of momentary phenomena is momentary on dependence of the phenomena being noticed - which I think is what you are implying. Mindfulness (sati) arises on dependence of being able to arouse the energy of the mind - as long as one can do that one can sustain ones mindfulness. A mind thus "empowered" can then examine phenomena. You mention the sense doors. The mindful examination of the sense doors would result in the noticing of the bare sensation of what arises at the door, its sustaining and its fall. Wisdom (panna) arises from this examining process. So I would have thought that sati "experiences" the phenomena and panna arises from that experience. How is this different to noticing anything else such as thoughts in the mind? How is sitting quietly noticing mind processes different to any other experience that sati notices? At this point I would like to state that I think our positions are very close and that we can recognise that Buddhism provides a number of paths to the deathless and it is up to each to find the most suitable path and follow it. Kind Regards, Evan 44317 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:50pm Subject: Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum James: > Thanks for the information but Transcendental Meditation isn't > Vipassana. No, of course, it's not. But from what I've read, TM sounds very much like jhana meditation (which many Buddhists also practice). To what degree studies of one form of meditation are generalizable to other forms is an interesting question. Based on anecdotal evidence (including posts I've read on this list) I think that many of the results are generalizable to vipassana. But, of course, we would need specific studies of long-term vipassana meditators to prove that hypothesis. Matthew 44318 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:53pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... Matthew: No, of course, it's not. But from what I've read, TM sounds very much like jhana meditation (which many Buddhists also practice). Matthew, TM is not jhana meditation. Kind Regards, Evan 44319 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:04pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... Matthew: Umm, insects (and homo sapiens) *are* animals. They are members of the kingdom Animalia. Matthew, These beings are grouped together with humans because of the scientific system of categorisation (the ancient Greeks have a lot to answer for here). There are many instances along the history of science in which the categories are incorrect and have since been corrected and in which animals/plants have been incorrectly categorised. One must not consider science as a static object. It changes and grows constantly (it is after all a human construct and as such a conditioned thing). The reason why humans are grouped with animals is because on the physical level (rupa) we are the same - we have gross physical manifestations. However, the classification system does not take into account the mind and its characteristics nor is there a scientific instrument that can measure these impirically (another word derived from the Greek - this is getting annoying). Kind Regards, Evan 44320 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Evan (and Matthew & James) - In a message dated 4/12/05 7:59:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, evan.stamatopoulos@... writes: > > Matthew: > No, of course, it's not. But from what I've read, TM sounds very much > like > jhana meditation (which many Buddhists also practice). > > > Matthew, > > TM is not jhana meditation. > > Kind Regards, > > Evan ======================== Actually, Evan, it *is* a samatha-bhavana form of meditation. Keith Brasington, the well known jhana teacher who was a student of Ayya Khema, personally told me that for jhana bhavana a TM manta (Skt "mantra") is just fine to use. Also, he verified (from my description) that I had "stumbled into" the 2nd and 5th jhanas a few months after I had started TM practice years ago. So, in my opinion, the statement "TM is not jhana meditation" is incorrect. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44321 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:20pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... Howard, I stand corrected. A manta can be used as an object just as the breath can. Sorry if I upset anyone. Kind Regards, Evan Hi, Evan (and Matthew & James) - In a message dated 4/12/05 7:59:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, evan.stamatopoulos@... writes: > > Matthew: > No, of course, it's not. But from what I've read, TM sounds very much > like > jhana meditation (which many Buddhists also practice). > > > Matthew, > > TM is not jhana meditation. > > Kind Regards, > > Evan ======================== Actually, Evan, it *is* a samatha-bhavana form of meditation. Keith Brasington, the well known jhana teacher who was a student of Ayya Khema, personally told me that for jhana bhavana a TM manta (Skt "mantra") is just fine to use. Also, he verified (from my description) that I had "stumbled into" the 2nd and 5th jhanas a few months after I had started TM practice years ago. So, in my opinion, the statement "TM is not jhana meditation" is incorrect. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44322 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings3 - Recollection of Death and other special reflections kelvin_lwin Hi Sarah, As sayadaws would say conventionally there's two things: a person's jobs and dhamma's job. A person job is to live a moral life by developing mental strength to be able to live in accordance with their wisdom. Dhamma's job is to give material things, happy existences and ultimately liberation. The person cannot control the results, he can only control the actions he takes and certainly should. There are 4 possiblies: akusala object->akusala action, akusala object->kusala action, kusala object->kusala action, kusala object- >akusala action. Obviously there's not much to do for for people who have akusala action regardless of object. Most people tend to be akusala->akusala and kusala->kusala. So the first step is to come up with agreeable objects to have kusala, that's samatha. Or if someone is able to maintain kusala regardless of object they can start vipassana directly. - kel > > I think it's pretty clear what is meant and what should be done. > > Only remaining question to me is whether or not someone can do it. > ... > S: What do you think? Can anyone do anything? 44323 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:36pm Subject: Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Howard: > he verified (from my description) that I had "stumbled into" the > 2nd and 5th jhanas a few months after I had started TM practice > years ago. So, in my opinion, the statement "TM is not > jhana meditation" is incorrect. Howard, did you get a chance to look at the German study of TM? Here's the link again: http://www.trancenet.org/research/chap1.shtml I'm curious to know if you have any remarks about the results of this study, as someone who has practiced TM in the past. Matthew 44324 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking processes. buddhistmeditat... Dear Azita and Nina - A: I think your quote from the Theragatha is a wonderful reminder. I will write it in my diary, so I can read it often and hopefully, be a condition for me not to be heedless. N: yes, wonderful verse, thanks. T: Indeed, maranassati should be reflected often because death may come at any time. If such reflection results in a realization that there still are some akusala dhammas within us, then we "should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities" [AN XI.20, Maranassati Sutta]. Dear Nina, There are two important points in your previous message (# 43905) that I would like to ask you to kindly continue discussing them. 1) N: The Co to the Mahaanidaana Sutta (transl by B.B.), 2) N: I heard this morning on MP 3 some reminders about lobha. Because I think we should realize the lobha right now before there can be perception of the undesirability of all fabrications. T: Mahaanidaana Sutta is a profound discourse that touches on hard- to-penetrate topics such as paticca samuppada and anatta. If you have not discussed this sutta in details elsewhere, would you like to discuss it with me (in a series of messages)? But if a detailed discussion already exists, can you give me their DSG message numbers, or its Web link ? Concerning 'lobha', I understand that the 20 sakkaya-ditthis are fabrications (sankhara khandha); fabrications also may arise because of craving, according to the following sutta. "There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person -- who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- assumes form to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents". [SN XXII.81, Parileyyaka Sutta] Now, in order that "there can be perception of the undesirability of all fabrications", you say we should "realize the lobha". Is this lobha same as "craving" above, and how do we realize it in this sutta context? Kindest regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Azita and Tep, > yes, wonderful verse, thanks. > Nina. > op 12-04-2005 12:24 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > > > Furthermore, according to Theragatha VI.13 : > >> > >> "Make the day not-in-vain, a little or a lot. > >> However much the day passes, that's how much less is life. > >> Your last day approaches. This isn't your time to be heedless". > >> 44325 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:48pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Evan: > There are many instances along the history of science in which > the categories are incorrect and have since been corrected and in which > animals/plants have been incorrectly categorised. One must not consider > science as a static object. It changes and grows constantly (it is after > all a human construct and as such a conditioned thing). It is true that a few marginal organisms have been re-classified from, say, the kingdom Plantae to kingdom Protista. But homo sapiens' position within the kingdom Animalia is fairly secure and supported by overwhelming evidence. Evan: > The reason why humans are grouped with animals is because on > the physical level (rupa) we are the same - we have gross physical > manifestations. However, the classification system does not take into > account the mind and its characteristics Both Evan and James have asserted that the difference between homo sapiens and "animals" is the mind. But if we look at our closest primate relatives, we can see that they have minds as well -- they have consciousness, cognition, emotions, memory, learning and (rudimentary) language. They also have social conciousness, including senses of obligation, expectations, rules, and community concern. And as we examine further down the phylogenetic chain, we see a gradual emergence of the mental properties we call "mind" with the evolution of more complex brains. The difference between our "minds" and those of other animals is simply one of degrees. Matthew 44326 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Evan - In a message dated 4/12/05 8:21:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, evan.stamatopoulos@... writes: > > Howard, > > I stand corrected. A manta can be used as an object just as the breath can. > Sorry if I upset anyone. --------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I sure hope it takes more than THAT to upset anyone here! ;-)) No, of course no upset. I just wantd to set the record straight as I understand it. -------------------------------------- > > Kind Regards, > > Evan > =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44327 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Matthew - In a message dated 4/12/05 8:40:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bupleurum@... writes: > Howard: > >he verified (from my description) that I had "stumbled into" the > >2nd and 5th jhanas a few months after I had started TM practice > >years ago. So, in my opinion, the statement "TM is not > >jhana meditation" is incorrect. > > Howard, did you get a chance to look at the German study of TM? Here's the > link again: > > http://www.trancenet.org/research/chap1.shtml > > I'm curious to know if you have any remarks about the results of this > study, as someone who has practiced TM in the past. > > Matthew > ===================== I have skimmed through the article. I was never a TM "aficianado,"and I now nothing of the inner workings of the organization, though my impression is that it has much in common with a cult. I also do not know any details of the TM-Sidhi program, and I do not buy the "theory" behind the practice, as I am a Buddhist, not a Vedantin. As far as the basic mantra-meditation practice is concerned, it is a basic, simple, concentrative technique that can lead, I suspect, to all the jhanas and other "attainments" of a typical samatha practice. I stopped the TM practice when I became a Buddhist. (My reason wasn't a very "reasonable" one - I felt like a bit of a "traitor" in not practicing a more traditional Buddhist style of meditation such as anapanasati.) BTW, as regards to meditation leading to problems, I suspect that to the extent that one is "unstable," meditation may not be fully free of danger, because, at deeper levels, states and insights may arise that are unsettling and could have harmful effects. So, an initial level of reasonable mental and emotional stability, attainable in part by a strong and extended practice of sila, is rather important. However, it is also fair to say that the early stages of samatha meditation (through to access meditation) will actually aid in building the needed initial calm and will do no harm, and an ongoing mindfulness practice (during ordinary life) would also be a safe practice. So, it is important to go slowly at first and to avoid techniques that plunge one into states that one is unprepared to handle. My own experience is that the basic TM technique is rather safe. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44328 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:52pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Nina and Larry, Nina says: >> you ask your questions not for the sake of debating. It’s good that you recognize my interests have nothing to do with debating for the sake of debating. My concern is in learning Dhamma, but as I have been ‘led down the garden path’ before, I can’t bring myself to accept traditional interpretations without investigating myself. Returning to verse 604: >> ?604: > what is diversity of perceptions? The perception, perceiving, state >> of perceiving of one who has not attained (to jhaana) but who is >> possessed of mind-element (mano-dhaatu) and possessed of >> mano-viá¡¡.na-dhaatu).> We agree that 604 is referring to attaining the perception of the sphere of infinite space. >> perceiving of one who has not attained (to jhaana) but who is >> possessed of mind-element (mano-dhaatu) and possessed of >> mano-viá¡¡.na-dhaatu) >> The person who has *not* attained to jhana. Thus, the person who >> has attained does not experience sense objects. Here is the >>contrast that may help. I read this as follows: And so I conclude that this is stating that the yogi who has not yet attained formless jhana, but who nevertheless is attempting to do so, by not attending to diversity of peceptions, etc.. And so I would say that this whole statement is commentary on the standard sutta formula for ‘perception of the sphere of infinite space,’ and as such, sheds no light on form jhana. You continue: >> There are four planes of citta: sensuous plane (kaamaavacara), >>citta that experiences sense objects. Rupajhaana plane, arupajhaana >>plane, lokuttara plane. Only the first plane experiences sense >>objects. Now this is precisely getting to the question I asked last week when I restarted this thread. And the question is: Is there a direct one- to-one correlation between avacara and bhumi stated in the Abhidhamma Pitaka? The Patisambhidamagga seems careful to distinguish between the two. >> In the Path of Discrimination, p. 82, three planes of citta (not >>the unincluded, which is lokuttara) are combined with the planes of >>existence. But as to the material sphere plane (the fine material, >>or rupa-jhana) it is said:< included are those who have reached >>this in meditation, are abiding in comfort here and now, which >>ideas have their sphere here...>The Dhammasangani (Ch II and III0 >>and the Book of Analysis give paralel texts. Now I carefully studied p. 82 when I received the text a couple of weeks ago, and compared Ven. Nanamoli’s translation with the Pali, and in verses 397-401 the term avacara never occurs without bhumi, because this passage is of course talking about bhumis. And no doubt the statement in 399 about the is referring to one who has attained that bhumi by meditation as Ven. Nanamoli rightly adds in brackets, but everywhere else in the text where it refers to jhana as being rupavacara-dhamma, it never includes the term rupavacara-bhumi (to my knowledge anyway), but only states that jhana is kusala cause for rebirth there (see verse 406, p. 83 of same Katha). So although one *may* be able to attain rupavacara-bhumi through jhana, I don’t see the Patisambhidamagga stating that it is a necessary condition for the attainment of jhana that one does so. To the contary, the text repeatedly states that abandoning the hindrances is the only prerequisite for the attainment of the first jhana, and it never (to my knowledge) states that kama-chanda is a synonym for kamavacara-bhumi (I think I understand what you mentioned previously about the commentarial interpretation of withdrawal as stated in the Sutta Pitaka jhana formula as meaning withdrawal from all sensory form perception, but of course my quest here is for an explicit statement confirming this interpretation). And so my question is: Is there a direct one-to-one correlation between rupavacara and rupavacara-bhumi stated elsewhere in Abhidhamma Pitaka, which states that rupavacara only = rupavakara- bhumi? Is it stated that rupavacara-citta can’t experience sensory form? I look forward Nina, to any Abhidhamma Pitaka statements you can provide that would shed further light on this point. >> See: The Mahaaparinibbaana sutta, Pukhusa who could >> attain jhana and did not hear anything. I will definitely look at this Sutta before I talk with you again. Larry asks: >> If a sutta needs interpretation why not resort to the commentaries >> and people who have extensive first hand experience? But who to believe? I’m sure that you know as well as I that there are Ajahns who either explicitly or implicitly say that the commentarial tradition is off the mark. Personally, my reading of the Tipitaka at this present state of understanding is based on the conservative principle that the suttas mean precisely what they say. Until I am convinced otherwise by canonical evidence, this seems the prudent choice. Metta, Geoff 44329 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma lbidd2 Geoff: "But who to believe?" Hi Geoff, Belief is unnecessary, just investigate. I don't quite understand what you are talking to Nina about but all jhanas can be attained by beings on the sensuous plane, though sensuous objects are not experienced in jhana. The kamma result of jhana practice is to be born into a fine-material or immaterial plane "as is said". This is a rough sketch. Htoo can provide extensive detail. At this time the Visuddhimagga and Abhidhammattha Sangaha are the primary sources for abhidhamma study. My impression is that the actual 7 volumes of the abhidhamma pitaka are rather primitive or elemental and won't tell you much without a commentary. Larry 44330 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:48pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau Hi Evan, You were saying: ------------------------------ > However, within Buddhism there are a number of paths that can lead to liberation and that is why I listen to different points of view. It is up to the individual to find a path that is suitable for their temperament. > ------------------------------ As I see it, there is only one context in which several paths can be said to exist within the Dhamma. That is, there are four ways in which jhana is, or is not, practiced. It can be practised prior to vipassana, after vipassana, in conjunction with vipassana or not at all. Apart from that one technicality, the Path is essentially the same for everyone: The ultimate goal is Final Extinction of Suffering (parinibbana). The path leading to Final Extinction is the Eightfold Path of the Ariyans (supramundane insight). The path leading to the Eightfold Path is Satipatthana (mundane insight). And the path leading to Satipatthana is; wise hearing, wise discussion and wise consideration of the true Dhamma (intellectual understanding). --------------------- E: > The Buddha admitted that there are dry insight meditators and arahants but I do not recall a sutta in which he instructed Bhikkhus to practice in this way. There are however numerous suttas in which the Buddha instructs a bhikkhu to sit at the foot of a tree or in a hut in seclusion and develop the jhanas 1, 2, 3 etc. ---------------------- I think those particular instructions were directed at bhikkhus who included jhana in their practice. But the rest of the Pali Canon applies to everyone. Every description of the five khandhas is, basically, an instruction to practice satipatthana, and it is directed at all of us. ---------------------------------------- E: > without virtue it would be very difficult to develop concentration and without virtue and concentration it would be impossible to develop wisdom. I may not have expressed the concept too well initially but when I said that each supports the other I did not mean that they are to be developed independently. --------------------------------------- We agree that wisdom is always accompanied by virtue and concentration; however, I think you might be saying that the mind has to be put into a special state of [calm, concentrated] preparation before wisdom can arise. That is not the case. Wisdom can arise immediately after any moment of consciousness - including wholesome, mildly unwholesome and even, extremely unwholesome consciousness. That is how it becomes possible to know 'mind with lust as mind with lust' 'mind with hate as mind with hate' etc., as described in the Satipatthana sutta. -------------- E: > I'm not sure why you say that this kind of insight meditation is not in the texts or is not the same as what you have described. First of all, all phenomena are momentary (assuming that the deathless state is not a phenomenon). ---------------- (Nibbana it is classified as a mental phenomenon (nama). It has the characteristic of anatta but not of anicca or dukkha). I suspect that you are including concepts (e.g., thoughts and ideas) in your definition of phenomena. But concepts are neither mental nor physical phenomena, and they are not included in the five khandhas. Concepts are illusory - they lack inherent characteristics (e.g., anicca, dukkha and anatta) and so mindfulness of them does not qualify as satipatthana. This distinction is made perfectly clear in the Abhidhamma and the ancient commentaries. It renders the notion of formalised (non- momentary) meditation paradoxical, because that kind of meditation can only know concepts. However, the paradox is overlooked by most, modern-day Buddhists. Ken H 44331 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:07pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 165- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (h) sarahprocterabb... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] Viriya is the “root of all attainments”, as we read in the definition by the Visuddhimagga. Right effort is an indriya , controlling faculty, which has to be developed together with the other indriyas for the attainment of jhåna and the attainment of enlightenment. As the Atthasåliní states, viriya is the indriya which “controls” or inhibits laziness. Laziness is an obstruction to jhåna and to enlightenment. Right effort can also be seen under the aspect of path-factor and as such it is called sammå-våyåma of the eightfold Path. Right effort has to accompany right understanding, sammå-diììhi, of the eightfold Path in order to be a path-factor. Right effort of the eightfold Path develops through mahå-satipaììhåna, the “four applications of mindfulness”. When there is mindfulness of the reality which appears at the present moment there is also right effort. ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44332 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H gazita2002 Hello Ken H, thanx for the following. Another little gem for my daily diary. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Evan, > As I see it, there is only one context in which several paths can be > said to exist within the Dhamma. That is, there are four ways in > which jhana is, or is not, practiced. It can be practised prior to > vipassana, after vipassana, in conjunction with vipassana or not at > all. > > Apart from that one technicality, the Path is essentially the same > for everyone: > The ultimate goal is Final Extinction of Suffering (parinibbana). > The path leading to Final Extinction is the Eightfold Path of the > Ariyans (supramundane insight). > The path leading to the Eightfold Path is Satipatthana (mundane > insight). > And the path leading to Satipatthana is; wise hearing, wise > discussion and wise consideration of the true Dhamma (intellectual > understanding). > > > Ken H Patience, courage and good cheer Azita. 44333 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:26pm Subject: Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma rjkjp1 > > robertk: > > If we agree that the Buddha was the teacher and master of vipassana > > then by your understanding wouldn't vipassana be the last thing one > > would want to do? > =================================== Matthew: Not necessarily. But I do think that the potential dangers of > intensive meditation should not be taken lightly,>>>>>>> > For some people, such experiences might cause long-term psychological > problems. I have also read reports of psychotic episodes, > hallucinations, chronic headaches and other neurological problems > brought on or exacerbated by meditation. ========= Dear Matthew, I agree with your concerns about the results of meditation. However these cannot be the results of vipassana (according to my understanding) simply because vipassana by definition is insight, it could never come with akusala. Unfortunately these days what is referred to as 'vipassana' is often a pale imitation. But what I wanted to bring to your attention was your reference to the Buddha dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Miller wrote: > > Vipassana and other forms of meditation could be considered > introspective, biofeedback techniques to directly alter one's own > brain chemistry and turn off these areas. > > . A lifetime of tinkering with > one's own brain chemistry may cause some people to become withdrawn, > anti-social or even delusional. Arguably, the Buddha himself > suffered from delusions such as possessing omniscience and > superpowers, seeing all of his former "rebirths," visiting alternate > universes and meeting Devas. ===== You see if the Buddha was a great vipassana proponent, became calm and happy BUT was suffering from delusions and hallucinations then surely no one in his right mind would want to follow his path? It would seem the better at vipassana you got the more likely you would become seriously insane. Actually, I thought it was forthright of you to say this. Most Buddhists with a materialist worldview say that the Buddha was speaking allegorically when he mentioned rebirth and devas, or that he never said said such things but they were inserted by monks. They spend a lot of time disparaging the Tipitaka. RobertK 44334 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:30pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... Hi Ken, At this point I will have to agree with what you say. I don't think at this point that there is significant difference in our views to warrant a reply from me on the points you have raised. Thank you for an interesting discussion. Kind Regards, Evan Hi Evan, Ken H 44335 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:37pm Subject: Attainments Evan_Stamatopou... I gather that from some of the discussions I have been having here that some do not believe that the attainments of practitioners and monks are as great as they were in the times of the Buddha. Although I would agree with that statement, I think it is to the extent of the diminishing of the attainments that I would probably not agree on. So, what I would be interested in knowing is what peoples' thoughts are on this topic - specifically: 1. Are there any monks in this time (in the past 100 years say) that have attained arahantship or any of the other supramundane attainments? 2. Are there any lay people who have attained to any of the fruits and knowledge of the path? 3. Are there any monks who easily attain jhana and/or insight knowledges? 4. Are there any lay people who easily attain jhana and/or insight knowledges? I look forward to the responses. Kind Regards, Evan 44336 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:11am Subject: Farewell (was Re: About rafts (Was: [dsg] Having no opinions jwromeijn Dear James, Nina, Jon and all In my last messages I contemplated about the 'Raft simile'. In fact DSG has been a raft for me. I leave it because it hardly moves, not because I'm 'on the other shore'. (Perhaps there is no shore, perhaps there are only islands.) Some of you asked me to continue my contributions: perhaps in some month if the moderators have changed the formulae of this DSG-forum in the direction of my proposals; but I think this will not be the case. Farewell, thanks and metta Joop 44337 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, Vis. III, note 4. sarahprocterabb... Hi Larry & Nina, > L: As for the role of vitakka and vicara in jhana I found this note in > > Vism. but the sutta notation doesn't conform; any idea where it comes > > from? > > > > Vism.III, note 4. 'Applied thought that occurs as though absorbing > > (appento) assocated states in the object is absorption (appanaa). > > Accordingly it is described as "absorption, absorbing (appanaa > > vyappanaa)" (M.iii,73). .... S: I think you have the Nanamoli/Bodhi transl? MN117, (p936 in my copy). Somewhat misleadingly imho, samma sankappa is translated here as right intention. Intention here refers to vitakka cetasika. "14. 'And what, bhikkhus, is right intention that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The thinking, thought, intention, mental absorption, mental fixity, directing of mind, verbal formation in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path*: this is right intention that is noble....a factor of the path." S: note that the aspect of 'mental absorption' here only applies to the noble, i.e lokuttara path factor. As discussed before, as a result of nibbana being the object, there is appanaa (absorption) at such moments even for those who haven't previously attained any jhanas. *translator footnote: "In this definition, the factor of intention (sankappa) is identified with applied thought (vitakka), which is further specified as the factor responsible for absorption by fixing and directing the mind upon its object..." ... > N: Very good. PED gives for appanaa: fix, turn or direct the mind. > Co to Abh. Sangaha, T.A. p. 35: And, also the burning up comes here! > <.. and it is jhaana because of contemplating the object and burning up > (jhaapana) the enemies [i.e. the hindrances]. ... S: Good. I'm sure we'll keep coming across it. in one of RobK's recent quotes from the Dhp-A, there was a reference to vipassana 'burning up' defilements or something similar if I remember correctly. And jhaapana, jhaapeti and jhaayati are all closely related. The dict entries are rather limited. (I've also looked at the Childers dict). Jhaapana - the burning up, jhaapeti- to cause to be burnt and jhayati- contemplate and burn.... ..... <...> Metta, Sarah ======= 44338 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:33am Subject: Re: Farewell (was Re: About rafts (Was: [dsg] Having no opinions sarahprocterabb... Dear Joop, Personally I've greatly appreciated your contributions and our discussions. I'm very sorry if you feel unable to participate further for whatever reasons - you have a lot to offer and share, even within the present DSG scope. You'll always be very welcome. Metta and best wishes for your journey in the meantime. Sarah ======== --- Joop wrote: > > > Dear James, Nina, Jon and all > > In my last messages I contemplated about the 'Raft simile'. > In fact DSG has been a raft for me. I leave it because it hardly > moves, not because I'm 'on the other shore'. (Perhaps there is no > shore, perhaps there are only islands.) <...> 44339 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:43am Subject: Dhamma Thread (323) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa 22. asannasatta, 21. vehapphala These last 2 bhumis are where 4th rupa jhana brahmas dwell. There is difference between sannasatta and vehapphala brahmas. Vehapphala brahmas are those who are reborn with rupavacara 5th rupavipaka patisandhi citta. That is they are reborn with this citta as rebirth consciousness because when in the last thought process that is in marana-asanna javana, they were in 5th rupakusala javanas. As soon as the last javana 5th rupakusala citta passes away, it is followed by cuti citta and then it is followed by 5th rupavipaka patisandhi citta. This is temporal linkage. Not a spatial. Who can come to vehapphala brahma bhumi? 1. manussa or human beings with 5th rupa jhana 2. catumaharajika deva with 5th rupa jhana 3. tavatimsa deva with 5th rupa jhana 4. yama deva with 5th rupa jhana 5. tusita deva with 5th rupa jhana 6. nimmanarati deva with 5th rupa jhana 7. paranimmitavassavati deva with 5th rupa jhana 8. brahmaparisajja brahma who attined 5th rupa jhana 9. brahmapurohita brahma who atained 5th rupa jhana 10.mahabramha who attained 5th rupa jhana 11.parittabhaa brahma who attained 5th rupa jhana 12.appamanaabhaa brahma who attined 5th rupa jhana 13.aabhassaraa brahma who attained 5th rupa jhana 14.parittasubhaa brahma who attined 5th rupa jhana 15.appamaanasubha brahma who attined 5th rupa jhana 16.subhakinhna brahma who attined 5ht rupa jhana 17.vehapphala brahma who are reborn in the same realm 18.asannisatta brahma who die at the end of their lifespan There are 3 groups, who cannot be reborn in vehapphala brahma bhumi. They are 1. 4 apaaya bhumis 2. 4 arupa brahma bhumi 3. 5 suddhavasa brahma bhumi ---- 13 bhumis beings cannot be reborn in vehapphala brahma bhumi 18 bhumis beings can be reborn in vehapphala brahma bhumi ---- 31 bhumis beings are constantly moving from one bhumi to one of 31 total bhumi at the end of their stay in current bhumi. Bodhisatta saw all these and this is the main immediate reason that rockets up to aasavakkhaya nana. When so called beings including Himself are seen as non-sense matter there is no more reason to stand on aasava dhamma and then aasava dhamma becomes 'khaya' or 'dry up'. Beings in 4 apaaya bhumis or 4 woeful planes of existence cannot be reborn in vehapphala brahma bhumi in their next life. Arupa brahmas cannot be reborn in rupa brahma bhumis as they do not practise or do not stay with rupa jhanas. 5 suddhavaasa brahmas are ariyas and they do parinibbana at the end of their lifespan. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44340 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:46am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 165- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (h) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom Right effort of the eightfold Path develops through mahå-satipaììhåna, the "four applications of mindfulness". When there is mindfulness of the reality which appears at the present moment there is also right effort. ***** > [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah ====== -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah, Thanks for your effort. It is right dose for those who have disease of unknowing-of-Dhamma. Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! Htoo Naing 44341 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:56am Subject: Dhamma Thread (324) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa 22. asannasatta, 21. vehapphala 20. subhakinhnaa, 19. appamaanasubhaa, 18. parittasubhaa These last 3 rupa brahma bhumis brahmas are reborn with 4th rupavipaka patisandhi citta. These 3 bhumis are called 3rd jhana bhumis because according to 4 step-jhana scale they are 3rd rupa jhana brahmas. Why are there 3 separate bhumis for these rupa brahma even though the citta is characterwise the same that is the same patisandhi citta called 'rupavacara 4th rupavipaka citta'? Because when they develop the 4th (3rd) jhana, there are 3 different level of jhana called 1.paniita (superior) 2.majjhima(middle) 3.hiina (inferior) This is the point why attained jhana has to be frequently exercised to become proficient. One developed jhana and did not practise. At another time he regain that jhana and at dying he developed that jhana. Such jhana will have the lowest power and will be reborn in the lowest of their corresponding jhana bhumi. Expert level proficiency will give rise to paniita jhana and will be reborn in the highest in the corresponding jhana bhumi. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44342 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 3:11am Subject: Dhamma Thread (325) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa 22. asannasatta, 21. vehapphala 20. subhakinhnaa, 19. appamaanasubhaa, 18. parittasubhaa The last 3 bhumis are called 3rd jhana bhumis. When beings in these 3 realms die, where do they go? They can go anywhere depending on their maturition except to 4 apaaya bhumis in their next life. If they become anagams, they will be reborn in one of 5 suddhavasa brahma bhumis. If they develop 5th (4th) jhana, they will be reborn in vehapphala bhumi and if they do effort not to arise sanna then will be reborn in asannasatta brahma bhumi with rupa-patisandhi. They can be reborn in the same realm if they maintain their jhana and if they loosen and fall to lower jhana, they they will be reborn in those corresponding realms. If they develop kaamaavacara cittas in their last thought process, they will be reborn in kaama bhumis with tihetuka patisandhi, or dvihetuka patisandhi, or ahetuka sugati- patisandhi. Where do they come from? 1. manussa bhumi or human beings who attained 3rd jhana 2. 6 deva bhumis deva beings who attained 3rd jhana 3. 1st jhana rupa bhumi beings who attined 3rd jhana 4. 2nd jhana rupa bhumi beings who attined 3rd jhana 5. 3rd jhana rupa bhumi of different 3rd jhana bhumi beings 6. 4th jhana rupa bhumi called vehaphhala Asannasatta brahmas cannot be reborn in 3rd jhana bhumis because they are 4th jhana rupa brahmas. 5 suddhavaasa brahmas do not come to any bhumi as they do parinibbana at their cuti. Arupa brahmas are not reborn in 3rd rupa jhana bhumi. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44343 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:21pm Subject: Perfect Purity...!!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Nine Efforts which should be Developed: 1: The effort to purify Morality. 2: The effort to purify Mentality. 3: The effort to purify View. 4: The effort to purify Escape from Doubt. 5: The effort to purify Knowledge & Vision of Way & non-Way. 6: The effort to purify Knowledge & Vision of Method. 7: The effort to purify Knowledge & Vision themselves 8: The effort to purify Understanding. 9: The effort to purify Release. Source: The Exhaustive Speeches of the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 34 [iii 288] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=251033 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44344 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Evan) - In a message dated 4/13/05 1:50:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: > The ultimate goal is Final Extinction of Suffering (parinibbana). > The path leading to Final Extinction is the Eightfold Path of the > Ariyans (supramundane insight). > The path leading to the Eightfold Path is Satipatthana (mundane > insight). > And the path leading to Satipatthana is; wise hearing, wise > discussion and wise consideration of the true Dhamma (intellectual > understanding). > ======================== I really think that you might consider that the last of the foregoing sentences is rather much of an overstatement and somewhat of a minor misstatement. As regards overstatement, the Buddha certainly taught many "ordinary" preparatory practices in addition to what you mention, including sila and guarding the senses with ongoing, vigilant mindfulness. He certainly taught, over 45 years, far more in terms of practice than to wisely listen, consider, and discuss. As regards minor misstatement, while I know from sutta stories that the Buddha considered wise discussion of the Dhamma to be proper and useful, I don't believe he ever described such discussions as constituting part of a preparatory "path leading to satipatthana." (One place, for example, where one might expect to find such a reference would be in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, but I don't believe there is any talk of discussions there.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44345 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma jonoabb Hi Geoff sunnaloka wrote: >Sorry for my denseness, but what reference given by Nina is the one >on which commentarial interpretation hangs its hat? > > It is the statement about being aloof (withdrawn) from sense pleasures (I think you allude to this in your latest post to Nina) >>I'd be interested to know the basis for the idea that the object of >>jhana citta is the actual visible object rather than an image of it >>(if that's what you're suggesting). >> >> > >At this point I'm just inquiring, and so am not asserting anything >specifically > I appreciate that you are not asserting anything at the moment, but I think you see the point as a significant one, and I'd like to ask what that significance is. Does it have a bearing on the development of insight, for example, as you see it? Jon 44346 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H jonoabb Hi Evan Evan Stamatopoulos wrote (to KenH): > However the Nikayas mention the jhanas frequently. >The Buddha instructed his disciples to practice the jhanas frequently. >Even though the Buddha acknowledges the existence of dry insight >meditators and arahants, I don't recall in the suttas that he ever >instructed practicing in that way. Whenever he instructed his disciples >to practice it was starting off with the jhanas. This comment could >cause me a great deal of trouble but I will attempt to thwart that by >stating that my memory is the weak point here. If the Buddha did >otherwise, please give me the sutta reference and I will reread it. > > Well as you won't be surprised to hear, there's no single clear-cut statement in the suttas that clinches this argument. Certainly the Buddha often taught insight and jhana together, but the important question is whether he invariably did so, and the answer to that is clearly 'no'. There are countless instances in the suttas of people becoming enlightened without any reference to any prior attainment of jhana; for example, when listening to discourse on the khandhas, ayatanas or elements, or after receiving a 'progressive instruction' (aanupubbii-kathaa) from the Buddha. For an example of the latter, see M. 56 'To Upali' (p 477 of MLDB). >I was under the impression that it is more >difficult to be a dry insight meditator than one that comes to wisdom by >development of the jhanas. > I think this is commonly asserted or implied nowadays, but there is actually no basis for it in the suttas or commentaries, that I'm aware of. Indeed, the opposite may well be the case, since enlightenment with jhana as basis is in a sense a higher level of attainment than insight without jhana as basis. Jon 44347 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma jonoabb Hi Evan (and Howard) I preferred your first answer ;-)). I think it's quite safe to say that TM is not samatha-bhavana, because although TM teaches concentration it does not teach the difference between kusala and (subtle) aksuala, and only with panna that knows this can samatha be developed. The development of concentration per se can lead to states that have an apparent similarity to developed samatha, but these states will be aksuala rather than kusala. Jon Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: >Howard, > >I stand corrected. A manta can be used as an object just as the breath can. Sorry if I upset anyone. > >Kind Regards, > >Evan > >Hi, Evan (and Matthew & James) - > >In a message dated 4/12/05 7:59:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >evan.stamatopoulos@... writes: > > >>Matthew, >> >>TM is not jhana meditation. >> >>Kind Regards, >> >>Evan >> >> >======================== > Actually, Evan, it *is* a samatha-bhavana form of meditation. Keith >Brasington, the well known jhana teacher who was a student of Ayya Khema, >personally told me that for jhana bhavana a TM manta (Skt "mantra") is just fine to >use. Also, he verified (from my description) that I had "stumbled into" the >2nd and 5th jhanas a few months after I had started TM practice years ago. So, >in my opinion, the statement "TM is not jhana meditation" is incorrect. > >With metta, >Howard > > 44348 From: "agriosinski" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:30am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Miller wrote: > "Mind" is not something that just sprang into existence with humans. > We can see the gradual emergence of mental functions coinciding with > the gradual evolution of brain structure. As we move from simple > organisms up the phylogenic chain, we see more elaborate cognitive > functions emerging. The simplest brains merely control and > coordinate movement and body functions such as heartbeat, blood > pressure, fluid balance and body temperature. As the brain evolved in > complexity, and especially with the emergence of larger cortices in > mammals, we see the gradual emergence of "higher" functions like > cognition, emotion, memory, motor learning and other sorts of > learning. The difference between our minds and those of our nearest > animal relatives is only one of degrees. > > Matthew Hi Matthew, it seems to me you understand the mind as thinking behind or on top of sensory perceptions. You belive it is a result of brain cells electrical activity. Right? metta, Agrios 44349 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/13/05 9:22:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jsabbott@... writes: > Hi Evan (and Howard) > > I preferred your first answer ;-)). I think it's quite safe to say that > TM is not samatha-bhavana, because although TM teaches concentration it > does not teach the difference between kusala and (subtle) aksuala, and > only with panna that knows this can samatha be developed. > > The development of concentration per se can lead to states that have an > apparent similarity to developed samatha, but these states will be > aksuala rather than kusala. > > Jon > ======================= TM does nothing (IMO) other than provide a neutral meditation subject along with the standard instructions to gently return the attention to that subject whenever it is noticed that the mind has wandered. Such a practice will, if other appropriate conditions are in place, lead to the jhanas. Without needed supporting conditions it will not. There is really no "big deal" about TM at all. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44350 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:20am Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Jon, You ask: >> I appreciate that you are not asserting anything at the moment, >>but I think you see the point as a significant one, and I'd like to >>ask what that significance is. Does it have a bearing on the >>development of insight, for example, as you see it? I will quote Ajahn Thanissaro as to why I’m inquiring about canonical confirmation regarding the commentarial definition of jhana as a state of ‘fixed samadhi’ devoid of sensory form perception which is replaced by the appearance of a mental countersign to be the object of jhana, and this object is not a paramattha dhamma because it apparently isn’t subject to momentary change (this is the commentarial definition of jhana as I presently understand it, if I’m wrong on this please correct me). In Wings to Awakening: Part III-F, Ajahn Thanissaro says: "Part of the controversy over this question [as to whether or not jhana is necessary for transcendent panna] may be explained by the fact that the commentarial literature defines jhana in terms that bear little resemblance to the canonical description. The Path of Purification -- the cornerstone of the commentarial system -- takes as its paradigm for meditation practice a method called kasina, in which one stares at an external object until the image of the object is imprinted in one's mind. The image then gives rise to a countersign that is said to indicate the attainment of threshold concentration, a necessary prelude to jhana. The text then tries to fit all other meditation methods into the mold of kasina practice, so that they too give rise to countersigns, but even by its own admission, breath meditation does not fit well into the mold [....] As a result, the text states that only Buddhas and Buddhas' sons find the breath a congenial focal point for attaining jhana. None of these assertions have any support in the Canon. Although a practice called kasina is mentioned tangentially in some of the discourses, the only point where it is described in any detail (MN 121) makes no mention of staring at an object or gaining a countersign. If breath meditation were congenial only to Buddhas and their sons, there seems little reason for the Buddha to have taught it so frequently and to such a wide variety of people. If the arising of a countersign were essential to the attainment of jhana, one would expect it to be included in the steps of breath meditation and in the graphic analogies used to describe jhana, but it isn't. Some Theravadins insist that questioning the commentaries is a sign of disrespect for the tradition, but it seems to be a sign of greater disrespect for the Buddha -- or the compilers of the Canon -- to assume that he or they would have left out something absolutely essential to the practice. All of these points seem to indicate that what jhana means in the commentaries is something quite different from what it means in the Canon. Because of this difference we can say that the commentaries are right in viewing their type of jhana as unnecessary for Awakening, but Awakening cannot occur without the attainment of jhana in the canonical sense." Full text here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/3f.html And so this is why I’m looking for any canonical evidence that definitively supports the commentarial definition of jhana, because if there is no such definitive supporting evidence, then my inclination to adhere to the conservative principle of taking what is said in the suttas to mean precisely what it says, necessarily leads to a much different magga paradigm than what is presented in the commentarial literature. Geoff 44351 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:17am Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Larry, L: sensuous objects are not experienced in jhana If by sensuous objects you mean the five sensory form objects: visible form, sound, odor, flavor, and tactual sensation, and not the five hindrances: impulsive sensual desire, aggression, agitation, laziness/sleepiness, and doubt, then I’m looking for a canonical Abhidhamma statement confirming this assertion. I’m aware that what you say is indeed the commentarial position -- but what is the definitive canonical basis for this understanding? As for why I’m inquiring, please refer to my previous post on this same thread addressed to Jon. Geoff 44352 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhana and bodily movement. nilovg Hi James and Christine, op 11-04-2005 22:17 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > > I do not see how this would be possible. Was this your conclusion > or A. Sujin's? Because the words of Sariputta himself, recorded in > the Theragatha (995,996), state: > > "It was to another that the Blessed One was teaching the Dhamma; to > the Dhamma-preaching I listened intently for my own good. And not in > vain, for freed from all defilements, I gained release." > http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html#attain > > So, are you contenting that Sariputta was entering and exiting > jhana, fanning the Buddha, and listening intently to a dhamma > discourse, all at the same time? To me, this seems impossible. N: Yes, and also attaining arahatship with the highest distinction: the four discriminations. But all these were different cittas at different moments. My discussion with Kh. Sujin was many years ago. Now I tried to look up some texts. I have no access to the Co Dhammapada which gives a longer story. I read in my Thai co. to the Dighanakkha sutta at the end: It was uposatha day and many monks had met. Of these 1250 bhikkhus, all of them were arahats, and not sukkhavipassaka, dry insight workers, and with six abhiññas. In Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, (II, 159 or IV, 173) Sariputta explains that he, when ordained six months, grasped the four Discriminations. He was a jhanalabhi, he had developed jhana and attained arahatship with lokuttara jhanacittas. This is only possible if one has the masteries of the jhana stages: entering and emerging from jhana whenever and whereever one intends to. When emerging from jhana one develops insight of all dhammas that appear, also of the jhanacittas that have just fallen away. Entering jhana and emerging can be very rapidly. We should realize what mastery, vasii, means! While he was fanning the Buddha, he could in between enter and emerge from jhana and also develop insight while he listened, and attain arahatship. This shows us how extremely fast the different cittas arise and fall away. Listening and fanning, jhanacittas, cittas with insight, lokuttara cittas. It is amazing. Khemaka was preaching Dhamma and during that time he and the listeners attained enlightenment. You may wonder how all this is possible. When you are talking to someone at the corner of a busy street, you may at the same time heed the traffic passing by, think of what you are going to say, listen to the other person, and in between you may have many other thoughts, such as wanting to purchase vegetables at the super, or getting bored of the conversation. The cittas move on, so fast. Also, when talking and listening, insight can be developed. When the lips move there is hardness or motion, there is sound, thinking, hearing. It is helpful to understand this point, then there will not be obstructions for beginning to develop insight naturally, in our busy life. Also when you are teaching your class. Think of Sariputta fanning the Lord Buddha! We are not like Sariputta, but he is an example to us. I know that this is difficult but it can be done. If it was not possible the Buddha would not say so. Now I am at a sutta Phil and I like so much: It can be done. Nina. Nina. 44353 From: nina Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:20am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 151 and Tiika nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 151, Resolution. Intro: Adhimokkha, resolution, is among the six cetasikas which are the ³particulars², arising with cittas of the four jaatis, but not with every citta. In this context of the Visuddhimagga it assists, together with the other sobhana cetasikas, the mahaa-kusala citta that is accompanied by paññaa. As we have seen (Vis. Ch XIV, 133) resolution is among the four cetasikas called Œor-whatever-dhammas¹ or supplementary factors (yevaapanaka). They are not expressively mentioned in the list of the Dhammasangani. The others are: wish-to-do (chanda), attention (manasikaara) and evenmindedness (tatramajjhattata). **** Text Vis.151: (xxix) The act of resolving [66] is 'resolution'. It has the characteristic of conviction. Tiika: Note 66. ' "The act of resolving" should be understood as the act of being convinced (sanni.t.thaana) about an object, not as trusting (pasaadana)' (Pm.489). N: The Tiika to Vis. par. 140, about confidence (saddhaa), explains lack of confidence that is akusala as faithlessness when there are occasions for confidence, and as wrong decision (micchaadhimutti). Whereas the opposite of faithlessness is decision, resolution that is pure. The Tiika states that this is not the same as adhimokkha, determination. In the context of saddhaa the term resolution (adhimutti) is used to describe the manifestation of faith or confidence in wholesomeness. The Tiika explains further about the difference between resolution and confidence. Resolution, adhimokkha, is decisiveness as to the object that is experienced; it is the absence of undecisiveness with regard to akusala kamma such as killing or kusala kamma such as generosity. But confidence, saddhaa, is resolution with regard to those dhammas that one should confide in. These are the Triple Gem, kamma and its fruit and the factors of streamwinning, beginning with association with a good friend. Text Vis.: Its function is not to grope. N: The Tiika explains that non-groping is the opposite of groping or wavering that is compared to a child¹s undecisive conduct which thinks, ³shall I do this or not?² When there is an opportunity for daana, there may be undecisiveness; one may not be sure whether one will be generous or not. Whereas, when there is wholesome adhimokkha, it is firmly convinced about the benefit of daana and it supports the accompanying dhammas to engage in generosity. Text Vis.: It is manifested as decisiveness. N: Resolution cannot arise together with moha-muulacitta accompanied by doubt. When one has doubts about the Buddha²s enlightenment and his teaching of Dhamma leading to enlightenment, one cannot practise what he taught. Text Vis.:Its proximate cause is a thing to be convinced about. N: Its proximate cause is a dhamma one should be convinced about. Since in this context resolution is a sobhana cetasika accompanying mahaa-kusala citta, its object can be daana, siila or mental development that includes samatha and vipassanaa. Those are dhammas fit to be convinced about. Text Vis.: It should be regarded as like a boundary-post owing to its immovableness with respect to the object. N: A boundary post was firmly set into the ground at the gates of a city to obstruct the entry of the enemy (T.A. p. 57). Conclusion: Determination performs its function together with the other sobhana cetasikas, such as confidence, sati and kusala chanda. We can have the firm and steadfast determination to listen to the Dhamma and develop satipa.t.thaana. If we only want to listen a few times our determination is not firm enough and we may vacillate and become disheartened because of our defilements. Resolution is a cetasika, a dhamma that arises when there are the appropriate conditions. When understanding sees the benefit of the development of the Path leading to the end of defilements, there can be the steadfast resolution to develop satipa.t.thaa.na together with all kinds of kusala. As we read, resolution should be regarded as a boundary-post that obstructs the entry of the enemy since it is immovable with respect to the object. One may be in difficult circumstances and suffer from sickness and pain, but these do not need to distract us from the development of paññaa. **** Nina. 44354 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H nilovg Hi Evan, Meanwhile, if you like, you could read the paras of the Vis. that Larry posts, of Ch XIV. Nina. op 12-04-2005 07:40 schreef Evan Stamatopoulos op evan.stamatopoulos@...: > I will admit to not having read the Visuddhimagga as yet. I nearly > ordered it from Amazon yesterday but something stopped me. I will make > that purchase soon. 44355 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking processes. nilovg Dear Tep, op 13-04-2005 03:05 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@... > 1) N: The Co to the Mahaanidaana Sutta (transl by B.B.), linking perception of humans may be triple-rooted, double-rooted, or > rootless; therefore they are said to be "diverse in perception."> > T: Mahaanidaana Sutta is a profound discourse that touches on hard- > to-penetrate topics such as paticca samuppada and anatta. If you > have not discussed this sutta in details elsewhere, would you like to > discuss it with me (in a series of messages)? But if a detailed > discussion already exists, can you give me their DSG message > numbers, or its Web link ? N: I also find it most difficult. B.B. has translated it with its co: The Great Discourse on Causation, BPS Sri Lanka, ISBN 955-24-0117-8. It was not discussed in DSG, but mentioned. The best would be to order this booklet. To read it and then some points could be lifted out. Heavy stuff! T: Concerning 'lobha', I understand that the 20 sakkaya-ditthis are > fabrications (sankhara khandha); fabrications also may arise because > of craving, according to the following sutta. > > "There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person -- who > has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their > Dhamma; .... [SN XXII.81, Parileyyaka Sutta] > > Now, in order that "there can be perception of the undesirability of all > fabrications", you say we should "realize the lobha". Is this lobha > same as "craving" above, and how do we realize it in this sutta context? There are many names for lobha cetasika, craving, clinging, adherence, used in different contexts. perception of the undesirability of all fabrications: detachment from all conditioned dhammas. Before this can be accomplished we have to know what these dhammas are, when they occur, what our attachment to them is, when it occurs. Detachment is not the beginning, but the end. I am not sure about fabrications, it may stand for sankhara dhammas in this case. Then it includes all conditioned dhammas, all khandhas. Nina. 44356 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 0:41pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Agrios: > it seems to me you understand the mind as thinking behind > or on top of sensory perceptions. > You belive it is a result of brain cells electrical activity. > Right? > Based on the abundance of available evidence, I think that what we call the "mind" is a general term for a number of subcapacities, all of which are emergent properties of neural activity in the brain. Here are a few previous posts in which I explained my position: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43546 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43557 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43868 Matthew -- "It is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." -- Charles Darwin, Introduction to The Descent of Man (1871) 44357 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:14pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma sunnaloka Hi Matthew, Again I'm randomly dropping in on your conversation without having followed the thread very closely, and for that -- my appologies. You quote Darwin: > "It is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so > positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by > science." > -- Charles Darwin, Introduction to The Descent of Man (1871) Now I don't have the quote handy, but Einstein once said something to the effect that science will never prove nor disprove Transcendent Reality or God or Transcendent Consciousness (Vinnana Anidassana) or whatever you want to call it -- simply because it transcends the domain of science, and therefore can only be discerned by gnosis or panna or nana or whatever you want to call it. Many other 20th century physicists have made similar statements. Now you may very well assert that whatever transcends the domain of science is nothing more than a flight of fancy, and if that's your view so be it, but why close off possibilities which can never be definitively proven nor refuted by science? It just doesn't seem the most skillful option to me, and as I said way back on this thread, the Buddha considered all such argumentation to be ultimately meaningless. By the way, Einstein also said (I'm sure you probably know this one): "Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity." --Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffman, Eds., "Albert Einstein: The Human Side," Princeton University Press, (1954) So do think Darwin's statement applies to Einstein? Geoff 44358 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:18pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Geoff: > Einstein once said something to > the effect that science will never prove nor disprove Transcendent > Reality or God or Transcendent Consciousness (Vinnana Anidassana) or > whatever you want to call it -- simply because it transcends the > domain of science... > Now you may very well assert that whatever transcends the domain of > science is nothing more than a flight of fancy, and if that's your > view so be it, but why close off possibilities which can never be > definitively proven nor refuted by science? I would suggest that if one asserts that anything can never be explained by science, then one is "closing off possibilities." The history of science is littered with supposedly "transcendent" realities for which scientific explanations were found. Matthew -- "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated... If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." -- Albert Einstein, quoted in "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", edited by Dukas & Hoffman 44359 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:34pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma sunnaloka Hi Matthew, How can science ever refute the possibility that consciousness transcends phsyical death, that would be mortal--ly impossible wouldn't it? And I'm not asserting anything about Einstein's religious leanings -- only stating what the old boy said. Geoff 44360 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:36pm Subject: Re:thinking processes. buddhistmeditat... Dear Nina - Thank you for replying to my mail. > T: Mahaanidaana Sutta is a profound discourse that touches on > hard-to-penetrate topics such as paticca samuppada and anatta. > If you have not discussed this sutta in details elsewhere, > would you like to discuss it with me (in a series of messages)? N: B.B. has translated it with its co: The Great Discourse on Causation, BPS Sri Lanka, ISBN 955-24-0117-8.The best would be to order this booklet. To read it and then some points could be lifted out. Heavy stuff! T: I will get a copy of this book as you recommended and study it first. Although I already read the easy-to-find online version and the Thai version several times over a span of 10+ years, it might be better to discuss from the book you've recommended. > T: Now, in order that "there can be perception of the undesirability > of all fabrications", you say we should "realize the lobha". > Is this lobha same as "craving" above, and how do we realize it > in this sutta context? N: Perception of the undesirability of all fabrications: detachment from all conditioned dhammas. Before this can be accomplished we have to know what these dhammas are, when they occur, what our attachment to them is, when it occurs. Detachment is not the beginning, but the end. T: Your simple explanation tells me that I might have made it too difficult. What you described is the basic problem-solving procedure: know problem definition and how it happens; know what causes the problem; know what solutions are possible; then select the best solution and implement it to solve the problem. N: I am not sure about fabrications, it may stand for sankhara dhammas in this case. Then it includes all conditioned dhammas, all khandhas. T: Aren't sankhara dhammas (formations or fabrications, depending on who the translator is) different from sankhata dhammas (all conditioned dhammas)? <'They formed the formed, Bhikkhus, that's why they are called formations'> Kindest regards, Tep ============= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > op 13-04-2005 03:05 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m... > 44361 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:48pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamatopou... Jon wrote: Well as you won't be surprised to hear, there's no single clear-cut statement in the suttas that clinches this argument. Certainly the Buddha often taught insight and jhana together, but the important question is whether he invariably did so, and the answer to that is clearly 'no'. There are countless instances in the suttas of people becoming enlightened without any reference to any prior attainment of jhana; for example, when listening to discourse on the khandhas, ayatanas or elements, or after receiving a 'progressive instruction' (aanupubbii-kathaa) from the Buddha. For an example of the latter, see M. 56 'To Upali' (p 477 of MLDB). ________________________________________________________________ Jon, Agreed. There are many instances where the Buddha does this. Only a Buddha has the ability to know the minds of other beings so well that he can do this. Sariputta in fact attained stream entry after 2 lines of a 4 line stanza given by a Buddhist monk! Considering that there are no suttas in which the Buddha instructs bikkhus or lay people to practice the path of dry insight, why is there so much emphasis on it these days and not so much on the jhanas? Kind Regards, Evan 44362 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:55pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma matheesha333 Hello, Not really being focussed on the thread here, but noted quite a bit going on about jhana. I wanted to add that there are suttas that state that it is possible to experience something from a lower jhana in a higher jhana (sukha in the fourth jhana for example) simply because the jhana is not well developed and established. This was stated in reference to Ven.Moggallana in his jhana training. It might be that a very superficial jhanic state might even allow walking (though I think it is highly unlikely) and sense impressions (much more likely). The depth of development and mastery of a jhana influences a great degree to how close to the sutta description the jhana manifests. metta Matheesha 44363 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 3:00pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma Evan_Stamatopou... Jon, The reason I recanted is that there are many objects that can be used as a kasina for practice which leads to the jhanas. The Buddha taught meditation on the breath as the most important but he also taught the use of earth, water etc as kasinas. I don't think he taught the use of a manta but I could see that is could be used. Kind Regards, Evan _________________________________________________________________ Hi Evan (and Howard) I preferred your first answer ;-)). I think it's quite safe to say that TM is not samatha-bhavana, because although TM teaches concentration it does not teach the difference between kusala and (subtle) aksuala, and only with panna that knows this can samatha be developed. The development of concentration per se can lead to states that have an apparent similarity to developed samatha, but these states will be aksuala rather than kusala. Jon 44364 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma lbidd2 Hi Geoff, I see where you're coming from re. B. Thanisaro's views on Vism. jhana analysis. I agree that much of the detail in Vism. is not in sutta and probably not in abhidhamma pitaka either. But that is no reason to throw it out. I think Vism. conforms with the intention of sutta statements on jhana in terms of minimizing experiential in-put for the purpose of maximizing tranquility. It also seems to me that anapanasati is not said to be jhana or lead to jhana in the suttas (I could be wrong about this?). I interpret this to mean that anapanasati is samatha/vipassana bhavana. I experimented with breath as an object for jhana and found that it worked best for me to just use the idea of air. But that was very much 'beginner's dabbling'. I wasn't so much concerned with developing a mental image as in just developing tranquility. Perhaps we could say there is a difference in difficulty in using breath as an object of jhana and in using it as an object of samatha/vipassana (aka satipatthana). Larry 44365 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, Vis. III, note 4. lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Thanks for this on MN 117,14. I saw the page referenced as M.iii,73 but didn't catch the note on vitakka as intention. I still don't see where this (below) paragraph comes from. Is it somehow a different translation of MN 117,14 beginning with "The thinking, thought, intention, ..." or possibly a different version of MN that the Vism. commentator (Dhammapaala) was working with? B. ~Naa.namoli translated both. Larry Vism.III, note 4. 'Applied thought that occurs as though absorbing (appento) assocated states in the object is absorption (appanaa). Accordingly it is described as "absorption, absorbing (appanaa vyappanaa)" (M.iii,73). Vism.117,14. 'And what, bhikkhus, is right intention that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The thinking, thought, intention, mental absorption, mental fixity, directing of mind, verbal formation in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path*: this is right intention that is noble....a factor of the path." 44366 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma lbidd2 Hi Geoff, One more thought on breath as object of jhana. It seems to me that kasina meditation as described in Vism. is very similar to mandala meditation in that the object is basic, general, and profound. With that in mind perhaps breath could be idealized as the essence of life or prana. Then possibly any sort of symbol of life would suffice as a sign of breath, a flower for example. Just a thought. Larry 44367 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken (and Evan) - > > KH:. . . > > And the path leading to Satipatthana is; wise hearing, wise > > discussion and wise consideration of the true Dhamma (intellectual > > understanding). > > > ======================== H: > I really think that you might consider that the last of the foregoing sentences is rather much of an overstatement and somewhat of a minor misstatement. As regards overstatement, the Buddha certainly taught any "ordinary" preparatory practices in addition to what you mention, including sila -------------------------- Howard, how is sila practised? Past sila will condition more sila, but what other factors are involved? While waiting for your answer, I will give mine: conditions for sila are accumulated by knowing the meaning of sila. This is not easy - after all this time I still get confused over the simple definition. Sila is different from dana: it means actively not harming, whereas dana means actively helping. Secondly, sila is conditioned by knowing the difference between kusala and akusala dhammas, the benefits of the former and the dangers of the latter. Again, this is not easy: Sometimes, I have killed an injured insect or animal thinking I am not harming but helping, but actually, I lack proper understanding of conditioned dhammas. It's a mistake I am sure to make again and again. The actual actions (cetana) of harming and non-harming are anatta, and so they depend on conditions for their arising or non- arising. So, for example, there is no use in my swearing an oath, "I will always refrain from harming, and I will always be generous!" If the conditions for sila and dana have not been accumulated, those dhammas will not arise. So the path to sila is (as with dana and bhavana); wise listening, wise discussion and wise consideration of the true Dhamma. (End of story!) -------------------------------------- H: > guarding the senses with ongoing, vigilant mindfulness. -------------------------------------- How is guarding of the senses practised? To cut my long answer short: it is the same thing. It is not an easy practice to understand, and all too often, we think we have control over the senses. While we are thinking that, they are left unguarded. :-) ------------------------------------------------------ H: > He certainly taught, over 45 years, far more in terms of practice than to wisely listen, consider, and discuss. ------------------------------------------------------- Yes, but I didn't say they were the practice. The practice is satipatthana, and it required a lot of explaining from the Buddha and from kalyana-mittas. For those of us who still have dust in our eyes, the explanations go on. ------------ H: > As regards minor misstatement, while I know from sutta stories that the Buddha considered wise discussion of the Dhamma to be proper and useful, I don't believe he ever described such discussions as constituting part of a preparatory "path leading to satipatthana." (One place, for example, where one might expect to find such a reference would be in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, but I don't believe there is any talk of discussions there.) ------------- Well, you see it differently than I do. It is always important to know "what is Dhamma and what is not Dhamma." So we had better keep reading and considering, and discussing this very important issue. :-) Ken H 44368 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/13/05 11:41:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Ken (and Evan) - > > > > > > KH:. . . > >>And the path leading to Satipatthana is; wise hearing, wise > >>discussion and wise consideration of the true Dhamma > (intellectual > >>understanding). > >> > >======================== > H: >I really think that you might consider that the last of the > foregoing sentences is rather much of an overstatement and somewhat > of a minor misstatement. > As regards overstatement, the Buddha certainly taught any "ordinary" > preparatory practices in addition to what you mention, including > sila > -------------------------- > > Howard, how is sila practised? Past sila will condition more sila, > but what other factors are involved? > > While waiting for your answer, I will give mine: conditions for > sila are accumulated by knowing the meaning of sila. This is not > easy - after all this time I still get confused over the > simple definition. Sila is different from dana: it means actively > not harming, whereas dana means actively helping. > > Secondly, sila is conditioned by knowing the difference between > kusala and akusala dhammas, the benefits of the former and the > dangers of the latter. Again, this is not easy: Sometimes, I have > killed an injured insect or animal thinking I am not harming but > helping, but actually, I lack proper understanding of conditioned > dhammas. It's a mistake I am sure to make again and again. > ----------------------------------- Howard: Sila is practiced in just the sdame way as you went about writing this post - you decided to do it, and then you did it. ------------------------------------ > > The actual actions (cetana) > ----------------------------------- Howard: Cetana is intention, not actions. Actions follow from cetana. ---------------------------------- of harming and non-harming are > > anatta, and so they depend on conditions for their arising or non- > arising. So, for example, there is no use in my swearing an oath, "I > will always refrain from harming, and I will always be generous!" > ---------------------------------- Howard: Definitely no use unless it is truly meant and there is the capacity to make good on it, but if it is meant and there is that capacity, the vow can be very useful. The Buddha was much in favor of vows - for example his teeth-gritting vow not to get up from his meditation under the bodhi tree until he ach ieved full enlightenment. ------------------------------------ If > > the conditions for sila and dana have not been accumulated, those > dhammas will not arise. ---------------------------------- Howard: So? Intending is among those conditions. ---------------------------------- > > So the path to sila is (as with dana and bhavana); wise > listening, wise discussion and wise consideration of the true > Dhamma. (End of story!) > ----------------------------------- Howard: Absolute nonsense - unproven, and merely claimed. These are *among* the conditions. --------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------- > H: >guarding the senses with ongoing, vigilant mindfulness. > -------------------------------------- > > How is guarding of the senses practised? ---------------------------------------- Howard: By intention to pay attention and cultivate kusala and eliminate akusala, and making good on that attention by means of consistent exertion of effort. ------------------------------------------ > > To cut my long answer short: it is the same thing. It is not an easy > practice to understand, and all too often, we think we have control > over the senses. While we are thinking that, they are left > unguarded. :-) > > ------------------------------------------------------ > H: >He certainly taught, over 45 years, far more in terms of > practice than to wisely listen, consider, and discuss. > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Yes, but I didn't say they were the practice. The practice is > satipatthana > -------------------------------------------- Howard: REALLY! That's it - that's the whole story? The Buddha could have stopped with just one sutta then! ------------------------------------------- , and it required a lot of explaining from the Buddha > > and from kalyana-mittas. For those of us who still have dust in our > eyes, the explanations go on. > > ------------ > H: >As regards minor misstatement, while I know from sutta stories > that the Buddha considered wise discussion of the Dhamma to be > proper and useful, I don't believe he ever described such > discussions as constituting part of a preparatory "path leading to > satipatthana." (One place, for example, where one might expect to > find such a reference would be in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, but > I don't believe there is any talk of discussions there.) > ------------- > > Well, you see it differently than I do. It is always important to > know "what is Dhamma and what is not Dhamma." So we had better keep > reading and considering, and discussing this very important issue. > :-) > --------------------------------------- Howard: I didn't say otherwise! Your reply is irrelevant to what I wrote. What I wrote was quite specific, and your reply is unrelated to it. But you are correct on one point: We do indeed see this (entire) matter quite differently. -------------------------------------- > > Ken H > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44369 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:06pm Subject: Re: jhana and bodily movement. buddhatrue Hi Nina, Nina: Yes, and also attaining arahatship with the highest distinction: the four discriminations…In Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, (II, 159 or IV, 173) Sariputta explains that he, when ordained six months, grasped the four Discriminations. He was a jhanalabhi, he had developed jhana and attained arahatship with lokuttara jhanacittas. James: But Sariputta attained arahantship within two weeks "half a month"* of being ordained. To my understanding, he wasn't yet proficient at jhana at that time because he hadn't practiced previously. (Also, I don't readily agree that one can slip in and out of jhana so rapidly, even when proficient, but I will let that matter drop.) Metta, James * http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html#attain 44370 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:05am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 166- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (i) sarahprocterabb... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] Viriya is one of the factors of enlightenment, bojjhangas. The factors of enlightenment are: mindfulness (sati), investigation of the Dhamma (dhammavicaya, which is paññå),viriya, enthusiasm (píti), calm (passaddhi), concentration (samådhi) and equanimity (upekkhå). When the enlightenment factors have been developed they lead to the realization of the four noble Truths. The enlightenment factors reach completion through the development of mahå-satipaììhåna (1). *** 1) Kindred Sayings V, Mahå-vagga, Kindred Sayings on the Limbs of Wisdom, Chapter I, §6. ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44371 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:22am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H christine_forsy... Hello Jon, Evan, all, I'm not sure if Bhikkhu Bodhi's article has been mentioned this time round? 'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pâli Suttas' Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Jon wrote: > > Well as you won't be surprised to hear, there's no single clear- cut > statement in the suttas that clinches this argument. Certainly the > Buddha often taught insight and jhana together, but the important > question is whether he invariably did so, and the answer to that is > clearly 'no'. There are countless instances in the suttas of people > becoming enlightened without any reference to any prior attainment of > jhana; for example, when listening to discourse on the khandhas, > ayatanas or elements, or after receiving a 'progressive instruction' > (aanupubbii-kathaa) from the Buddha. For an example of the latter, see > M. 56 'To Upali' (p 477 of MLDB). > > ________________________________________________________________ > > Jon, > > Agreed. There are many instances where the Buddha does this. Only a > Buddha has the ability to know the minds of other beings so well that he > can do this. Sariputta in fact attained stream entry after 2 lines of a > 4 line stanza given by a Buddhist monk! > > Considering that there are no suttas in which the Buddha instructs > bikkhus or lay people to practice the path of dry insight, why is there > so much emphasis on it these days and not so much on the jhanas? > > Kind Regards, > > Evan 44372 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:35am Subject: Musings7 - Patience & Vexation sarahprocterabb... Dear Nina, James, Azita, Chris & All, (This series of ‘Musings’ are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) I mentioned that we also discussed more on aspects of patience, such as viriya (wholesome effort) and adosa (non-aversion), when we face difficulties. When we refer to the paramis, we refer to khanti parami (perfection of patience/endurance), but there is no khanti cetasika (mental factor). However the cetasikas viriya (effort) and adosa (non-aversion) are implied. If we try to pinpoint the different characteristics rather than being aware of what is appearing at any given moment, then there’s likely to be attachment again instead of detachment however. For an example of viriya as patience, the example was given of when we know people are speaking harshly about us. Can we continue to have metta and karuna? When there is metta and karuna at such times, viriya (effort )may appear as an aspect of patience, but adosa (non-aversion) is also there and it depends which characteristic is predominant in the 'package'. In the Dhammasangani under ‘Khanti duka’ (U Kyaw Khine transl, the aspect of endurance is included under forbearance (khanti): “What, in that connection, is forbearance? It is forbearance, being patient, endurance, not being truculent, being coherent in speech, being good-tempered. That is called forbearance.” *** Later when we spoke more about metta, it was stressed again how we can see the value of friendliness instead of dosa (aversion), moha(ignorance) or mana(conceit) anytime or in any place, such as in the supermarket, at work or on the bus. Even during dhamma discussions aversion or conceit, rather than metta, can sneak in anytime and so easily be ‘justified’ when there is no awareness. When we are concerned about others' conceits or wrong speech, we forget all about our own kilesa (defilements) at such times. The following quote includes further helfpul reminders. It's from an old letter of Nina’s on the same topic of developing patience, metta, energy/effort and equanimity in daily life when there are opportunities, such as when we receive blame: ">We need to develop the perfection of equanimity in order to learn to accept with kusala citta the vicissitudes of life. Praise and blame are only realities which arise because of their own conditions, in reality people are not the cause of praise or blame. When people do wrong to us we can develop metta if we see the value of metta. Instead of having aversion about people's bad points we will try to remember their good qualities. If they have none there can be compassion or there can be equanimity. There can be equanimity when we remember that the real cause of unpleasant experiences through the senses is not a person but our own kamma. “We should carefully consider the different perfections and then we will be reminded to develop them in our daily life, they are needed in each situation. Khun Sujin said that while she prepares lectures for the radio she needs many perfections, such as metta, patience, energy and equanimity. When there is equanimity she does not feel hurt when people do not want to listen to her or when they criticize her." < ***** On this topic of patience versus annoyance/vexation when we hear blame or others don’t behave as we'd like, I’m reminded of the ‘nine bases of vexation’ in the Vibhanga which reminds us again that the ‘vexation’ is only in the thinking with aversion about the situation. In fact, of course, only sound is ever heard and only visible object is ever seen: From Vibh, Analysis of Small Items, Ninefold Exposition: “Therein what are ‘nine bases of vexation’? ‘He has done me harm’, thus vexation arises; ‘He is doing me harm’, thus vexation arises; ‘He will do me harm’, thus vexation arises; ‘He has done harm to one dear and pleasant to me’, thus vexation arises;’He is doing harm to one dear and pleasant to me’, thus vexation arises; ‘He will do harm to one dear and pleasant to me’, thus vexation arises; ‘He has done good to one dear and not plesant to me’, thus vexation arises;’He is doing good to one dear and not plesant to me,, thus vexation arises;’He will do good to one dear and not plesant to me’, thus vexation arises. These are nine bases of vexation.” We also discussed more aspects of looking for quiet times for reflection and practice and feeling low or alone.(to be contd) Metta, Sarah =========== 44373 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:52am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (312) htootintnaing Dear Tep and interested members, Thanks tep for your questions, which are all interesting. You wrote: Dear Htoo and Friends, (changed words because this is DSG) I would like to make a few comments and questions about cittas. The purpose is to get your attention to certain issues that don't have clear explanation. If I am silent after seeing your response, please do not think that I don't like the answer. In general, I am silent whenever I feel that further discussion is not useful. But if nobody raise a question or express a concern, then the whole forum will be empty -- like an empty auditorium. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I can see your good intention.Actually I do not like busy message boards. Auditorium is always there even though new messages may or may not arise. In busy lists, I just check specific topics and read some interesting discussions. But most of the time I cannot read all messages. But in quiet lists, I feel it is cooler. As I said above there always is audience. This is right especially in the groups where I am a moderator. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: 1. I understand that between 'rebirth consciousness' and 'life-ending consciousness' (cuti citta ) it is not empty. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is true. This is reality. Some may or may not accept. Those who do not accept have a strong view that both consciousness are one and only one and the whole life has only one consciousness or mind or spirit. Even such beliefs have 2 extremes. One is eternity belief. This consciousness or this spirit or this mind does not die but it changes its name to different names and this spirit or mind or consciousness or citta will once be transferred to another life with rebirth-consciousness. It never dies. Some believe (non-Buddhist) that this spirit needs purification and when purified it come to fuse with universal God Brahma and lives there forever. This is one extreme and this is a kind of wrong view or micchaaditthi called sassata ditthi. Another view is that there is a spirit or a mind or a consciousness or a citta and it works in the defined body of current life. It is the result of brain and associated physical things like blood, heart and so on. When the body dies, nothing left and nothing continue. There is no life after death and there is no kamma. This is uccheda ditthi and it is a wrong view that believes there is nothing after death except the stale body becomes rotten, putrified, dried and becomes dust finally. These are 2 exterme views and there are 2 major wrong views that almost always reside in most of people including Buddhists. A single word speaks. A single sign works. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: There are always some serial combinations of life-continuing consciousness (bhavanga cittas) and citta in procession (or vithi citta) until the life-ending citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Vithi cittas arise in series of 8 to 14 total cittas. The series with minimal cittas is manodvara vithi cittas. MJJJJJJJ M is manodvara avajjana citta or 'mind door adverting consciousness'. It is followed by 7 successive javana cittas or cittas of mental impulsion, which run very swiftly. The series with maximal cittas is pancadvara vithi cittas in 'ati- mahantarammana visaya pavatti'. There are altogether 14 vithi cittas. PCSTVJJJJJJJDD P is panca dvara avajjana citta or '5 door adverting consciousness'. C is cakkhu vinnana citta (for eye) or 'eye-sense-consciousness'. S is sampaticchana citta or 'receiving consciousness'. T is santirana citta or 'investigating consciousness'. V is votthapana citta or 'determining consciousness'. 7 J are javana cittas or 'mental impulsive consciousness'. 2 D are tadarammana cittas or 'retention consciousness'. 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 7 + 2 = 14 vithi cittas These 14 cittas in pancadvara vithi vara or '5-door-processional- cittas-series' does take THE EXACT ORDER OF CITTAS and this is citta niyama. Above 8 cittas in manodvara vithi vara or 'mind-door-processional- cittas-series' does take THE EXACT ORDER OF CITTAS and this is citta niyama. There are different vithi varas and these have been explained. When there is no reason that vithi cittas have to arise, then there have to arise bhavanga cittas or life-continuing consciousness indefinitely as there are still kamma that dictate them to arise. There is no exact combination of vithi cittas and bhavanga cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: But what happens between 'the final thought process' (cuti citta) and rebirth consciousness (patisandhi citta)? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The final thought process is not cuti citta. If I wrongly mentioned like that please correct me. The final thought process is 'marana-asanna-javana-cittas'. It is a procession of citta and it contains 5 javana cittas. So it is called 'procession of cittas' or 'vithi' and it is marana-asanna- javana vithi. But cuti citta is 'dying consciousness' or 'life-ending- consciousness' or 'life-ceasing-consciousness' or 'life-switching consciousness'. It should not be called 'death consciousness' as death cannot be consciousness. What I understand your question is 'What happen between cuti citta and next life patisandhi citta?' Patthana Dhamma says that it is anantara paccaya as long as cuti citta is not arahatta-cuti citta. Anantara is made up of 'ana' and 'antara'. Antara means 'interval' 'gap' 'space'. Ana means 'no' 'nothing' 'none'. So anantara means there is no intervening things (time, space, matter). So there is nothing in between these 2 cittas. This phenomenon was once preposed by U Han Tun of JourneyToNibbana group. He was viewing a painting at a gallery. He heard a very familiar voice of one of his friend. What he noticed was that at a time consciousness is at the painting and at another time consciousness is at the voice (sound). He noticed that those two phenomena were very very close and he told that cuti and next life patisandhi must be like that and he felt quite a shock. Even right now, there have been many many moments of consciousness and many thought processes have occurred. But there do have the idea of self or self-identity in us. Those who are believing that 'tomorrow I will do such and such, I will reply this and that messages, I will not reply the message of such people and so on' reveal that there is idea of self identity. What I have been trying is that a clear picture of Dhamma is printed in the mind and the mind itself experience the realities. Some people are constantly expressing 'impersonal' 'impersonal' 'impersonal'. But there are shades of personality-view among such people. If you ask me or if someone ask me I would not say anything whether I am clear of self-identity view or still not clear of self-identity view. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Is it an emptiness or is it another kind of "phenomenon", if it is not a citta or a "being"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is not emptiness. It is not another kind of phenomenon. There is no being at all from the beginning. Again 'a citta' or 'citta' is also a word and it is pannatti or concept even though the meaning it bears is reality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: 2. Do bhavanga cittas take objects (arammana)? Why or why not? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Bhavanga cittas do take object (arammana). Why? Because it is a kind of consciousness and it is conscious to its object. Why not? Bhavanga cittas cannot take other objects. The only object it takes is the object of the earlier bhavanga citta, which is the closest bhavanga citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: If they do not, then how can they be called consciousness? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If they do not --(if not current objects), then they cannot be called 'conscious mind's consciousness'. It is an alternative form of consciousness. It is consciousness. So it can be arousable. If it is unconscious then it will never be arousable. A bhavanga citta is shaken. But it was not shaken and passed away. Next bhavanga citta is shaken because of the former effect. Next bhavnga citta is also shaken but it is not called 'shaken life- continuing consciousness' or 'vibrating bhavanga citta' or 'bhavanga calana citta'. But it is called 'bhavaguppaccheda citta or 'arresting bhavanga cittta' or 'arresting life-continuum'. All bhavanga cittas are called consciousnss because they all are conscious to their respective object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: 3. Please describe the process of bhavangha cittas : What conditions each bhavangha citta to arise or pass away? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There is no process of bhavanga cittas. Bhavanga cittas are called process-freed cittas or 'vithi mutta cittas'. They never have procession. There are many conditions that bhavanga cittas arise and pass away. They are life continuing consciousness. It is continuation of life. Life has to be continued because there are still life as dictated by kamma. The conditions are 1.absence of vithi citta 2.presence of kamma I hope Nina will add something more here. Rob M when he has time will also add here something. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Kindest regards, Tep May your persistence be aroused and not lax; your mindfulness established and not confused; your body calm and not aroused; your mind centered and unified. AN III.40: Adhipateyya Sutta ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for your wish. I do not bother whether my message boards are active or not. What I worry was for some who do have interest in Dhamma. That was why I requested you and U Han Tun to check and discuss Dhamma while I was away from JTN. Now I do not bother and do not worry. JTN message board may come to a halt or stop. But I want the message board clean. So I want to put the message board on moderation. I am soon going to open JTN to the general public like 'DSG' and 'triplegem'. There are many unmoderated members. If they want they will post and if they do not have a wish, they will do other things like posting in other groups or not posting at all. JTN is for helping 'how to attain Nibbana'. That is why it is given as 'Journey To Nibbana'. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Apology to moderators for discussing some outside groups. 44374 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:18pm Subject: Emotional Immunity...!!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Unaffectable & Unreactive Equanimity (Upekkha): Seek this subtle and Stilled Unity within Equanimity, instead of the inevitable doubt inherent in ever perplexing conceptual proliferation! Equanimity is neither pleasurable nor painful, attracted nor repulsed, yet quite agreeable & enjoyable in full awareness of its presence. There is equanimity regarding internal states... There is equanimity regarding external conditions... There is equanimity regarding living beings... There is equanimity regarding inanimate phenomena... Let go of the merely historic never returning past. Relinquish dreams of all possible futures yet uncome. Be just clearly aware of & content in the real present. The elimination of both sensual desires & of discontent, the ejection of laziness, the calming of regrets, just this pure equanimity, being aware of all mental properties exactly at the moment they appear: That I call the direct knowledge of release; the breakthrough from ignorance. If Indifferent towards both: Internal states & external phenomena, Living beings & lifeless things, Past, present & future events, How can one be hurt, upset, disturbed or distressed ? Calm is his mind. Calm is his speech. Calm is his action. So is the Tranquillity; So is the Equanimity; of one Released by Insight of Right Understanding... Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44375 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:28am Subject: Dhamma Thread (326) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa 22. asannasatta, 21. vehapphala 20. subhakinhnaa, 19. appamaanasubhaa, 18. parittasubhaa 17. aabhassara, 16. appamaanaabhaa, 15. parittaabhaa The last 3 bhumis or realms are called 2nd jhana bhumis. Beings in these 3 realms are reborn with 2nd and 3rd rupavipaka cittas. There are 3 separate bhumis as there are 3 level of proficiency namely hiina or lesser, majjhima or middle, paniita or greater proficiency. The implications are the same as in the previous post. That is 'who can come to these 3 2nd jhana rupa brahma bhumis' and 'where do they go when they die in 2nd jhana bhumi'. There are 3 1st jhana rupa brahma bhumis. They are 14. mahaabrahmaa, 13, brahmapurohitaa, 12. brahmaparisajjaa Beings in these 3 1st jhana rupa brahma are reborn with 1st jhana rupavipaka patisandhi cittas. There are 3 separate realms as there are 3 separate level of proficiency namely hiina, majjhima, and paniita. The same applies to these 3 realms as in case of 2nd jhana rupa brahma bhumi. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44376 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:39am Subject: Dhamma Thread (327) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa 22. asannasatta, 21. vehapphala 20. subhakinhnaa, 19. appamaanasubhaa, 18. parittasubhaa 17. aabhassara, 16. appamaanaabhaa, 15. parittaabhaa 14. mahaabrahmaa, 13, brahmapurohitaa, 12. brahmaparisajjaa After that there left 11 kaama bhumi or 11 planes of sensuous sphere. These 11 realms are where beings enjoy sensuous pleasure and they have sensuous things that is sight, sound, smell, taste, touch and thought related to them. 11. paranimmita vassavatii deva realm 10. nimmanarati deva realm 9. tusitaa deva realm 8. yaamaa deva realm 7. taavatimsa deva realm 6. catumaharaajika deva realm These 6 realms are called deva bhumis. These are named according to their implication. Catumahaarajika = catu + mahaa + raja + ika It means 'where 4 great kings live'. But this realm has many many deva beings and there are not just only these 4 great kings. These 4 kings are 1. Dhattarattha 2. Viruuhlaka 3. Viruupakkha 4. Kuvera These are just names and when they should die, there will arise another deva king in place of them. These 4 kings have to attend the General Deva meeting at Tavatimsaa deva realm, where the meeting point or meeting hall exists. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44378 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:04am Subject: Dhamma Thread (328) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa 22. asannasatta, 21. vehapphala 20. subhakinhnaa, 19. appamaanasubhaa, 18. parittasubhaa 17. aabhassara, 16. appamaanaabhaa, 15. parittaabhaa 14. mahaabrahmaa, 13, brahmapurohitaa, 12. brahmaparisajjaa 11. paranimmita vassavatii deva realm 10. nimmanarati deva realm 9. tusitaa deva realm 8. yaamaa deva realm 7. taavatimsaa deva realm 6. catumaharaajika deva realm 'Catumahaarajika deva bhumi' has been explained in the previous post. Taavatimsaa is made up of 'ta' and 'timsa'. Ta means 'three' and timsa means 'thirty'. So taavatimsaa means '33'. When Bodhisatta 'Maagha', who lived in the village Maagha was a leader of wholesome actions, he led the team of 32 to do good things like digging up well for drinking water for the whole village, laying out good travelling path, road etc, laying bridges where needed and many other things. When they all died in human realm, they all were reborn in their next life as deva beings in that realm. That is why the name was given like that. The name of this realm may change after many Buddhas. Tavatimsa is the meeting point for all deva beings. Deva beings in the lower realm that is catumaharajika deva beings can go to tavatimsa deva realm. But catumaharajika deva and tavatimsa deva cannot go up to Yaamaa deva realm. They don't even have a power to look up without consent of higher deva beings. Yaamaa deva beings are higher in position as compared to lower deva realms. This is because they do have higher maahaakusala power in their past. Tusita deva beings are higher than Yaamaa deva beings. Tusita deva realm is a place where Bodhisatta last dwelled just before he was reborn in Manussa Bhumis as a human being to become a Sammasambuddha. Nimmanarati = nimmana + rammati Nimmana means 'created ones' and rammati means 'enjoy'. These deva beings have the power to create the senses they want and enjoy those senses. They are more powerful than lower deva beings like tusitaa, yaamaa, taavatimsaa, and catumaharaajika deva beings. Paranimmitavassavati deva beings are the most powerful sensuous beings. They can occupy all the sensuous matters that are crated by nimmaanarati deva beings. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44379 From: "agriosinski" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:32am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Miller" wrote: > > > Based on the abundance of available evidence, I think that what we > call the "mind" is a general term for a number of subcapacities, all > of which are emergent properties of neural activity in the brain. > Here are a few previous posts in which I explained my position: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43546 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43557 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43868 > > Matthew > -- > "It is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so > positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by > science." > -- Charles Darwin, Introduction to The Descent of Man (1871) Hi Matthew. Thanks for taking time to link me to your texts on the subject. Just want to point out, this is not what we call the mind, this is what you call the mind.. at the moment. In other place you stated on consciousness which is much closer to what we call the mind: "These are really two different issues. The first is: is the mind the same as the brain? The second is, can the mind exist without the brain? A mind-body dualist may argue that "mind stuff" and "body stuff" are two different things (which I find improbable), but nevertheless the dualist would have to agree that all the evidence we have suggests that the mind cannot exist apart from the brain." Following the same kind of definition of mind, you now have "mind stuff" and necessarily "body stuff" as two interrelated. And of course question arises about this interrelation. But all of it: 1.definition of mind 2.definition of body 3.nature of interrelation 4.mind 5.body 6.mind-body interrelations. has changed in past countless times and will change in future. So one can spend time again and again reasserting his views in every emerging new situation, if one desires. Buddhist practice goes in different direction. metta, Agrios 44381 From: Matthew Miller Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:08am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Geoff: > How can science ever refute the possibility that consciousness > transcends phsyical death, that would be mortally impossible > wouldn't it? Actually, there are a number of ways in which the existence of consciousness independent of brain function could be confirmed. This includes the study of so-called Near-Death Experiences (NDEs) and Out-of-Body Experiences (OBEs). Indeed, these kinds of phenomena have been studied quite extensively. Another would be the investigation of cases of rebirth/reincarnation. Nearly all traditions that believe in life after death, including Buddhism, claim that recall of the details of former rebirths does occur. Prof Ian Stevenson of the University of Virginia has devoted his life to the study of such cases. So far, none of this research has yielded any convincing evidence of consciousness transcending physical death. Here are two books which review the evidence (cited earlier): http://tinyurl.com/6qhht http://tinyurl.com/6byxd Combine the dearth of counter-evidence with the abundance of evidence from neuroscience that all mental functions are causally related to changes in brain physiology, as well as the evidence from evolutionary biology and comparative anatomy that the different subcapacities of the "mind" historically emerged within the phylogenetic chain following the evolution of more complex brain structures, and the theory which I have expounded seems most probable. Of course this could be revised with the arising of new evidence. Matthew 44382 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking processes. nilovg Dear Tep, op 13-04-2005 23:36 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > T: Aren't sankhara dhammas (formations or fabrications, depending > on who the translator is) different from sankhata dhammas (all > conditioned dhammas)? <'They formed the formed, Bhikkhus, that's > why they are called formations'> N: They refer to the same dhammas: citta, cetasika and rupa, but there is a slight difference in meaning that is emphasized. Sa.nkhaara is derived from sa.nkharoti: combine, put together, compose (Thai: prung teng). Sa.nkhaara dhammas, dhammas that arise because of conditions. As Kh Sujin explained in "Survey to Paramattha Dhammas", people could misunderstand this and believe that the dhammas that arise because of conditions continue to exist. Hence the Buddha taught that sa.nkhaara dhammas are also sa.nkhaata dhammas, dhammas which have been conditioned (Thai: prung teng lew). Sa.nkhata is past passive participle of sa.nkharoti. It refers to the dhammas which have arisen and then fall away. When the conditions fall away that dhamma which has arisen because of these also must fall away. Sa.nkhaara dhamma refers to dhamma which depends on other dhammas that condiiton its arisieing. Sa.nkhata dhamma refers to dhamma which, apart from being condiitoned, is dhamma that arises and falls away. Nina. 44383 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Geoff, op 13-04-2005 20:17 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: > Hi Larry, > > L: sensuous objects are not experienced in jhana > > If by sensuous objects you mean the five sensory form objects: > visible form, sound, odor, flavor, and tactual sensation, and not the > five hindrances: impulsive sensual desire, aggression, agitation, > laziness/sleepiness, and doubt, then I’m looking for a > canonical Abhidhamma statement confirming this assertion. N: I read the text you referred to, M.N. 77 and this referred to the eight deliverances in the Great Discourse on Causation, and Co. transl by B.B. Very difficult text, but before going into it, I think it may help to discuss a little more the aim of jhana. Do we realize to what extent we cling to sense objects? As soon as we see, we cling to visible object, but we do not notice it. This happens all the time, countless moments of clinging. After seeing there is the defining of the object, and this is usually done with clinging. We think about what was seen, heard, etc. When the citta is not intent on dana, sila or mental development, we think with akusala cittas. Most of the time we do not notice this. The aim of jhana is detachment from sense objects, although this is by way of temporal subduing of attachment. When there is no seeing, no hearing, there is not clinging to visible object, sound. What is the use of jhanacitta if one still experiences colour, sound and is thus immediately involved with clinging to them? There are outside Buddhism meditations that may lead to trance, but one should seriously question whether they lead to detachment. If this is not so, there is no genuine jhana. Some people may wish for extraordinary experiences, but that is not detachment. Now the difficult text of the Great Discourse on Causation. At the end is a text you also found difficult: . Vimokkha: release, freedom. How could that be real freedom, we can ask? Without the Co we cannot understand this very well. Except that in the sutta the word vimokkha is used, emancipation. So, it must be different from seeing right now, with all the clinging involved. The Co and subco helps me, but it may not help you, as I understand. Subco: He arouses jhana through the kasinas based on internal objects, such as hairs of the body (blue kasina). This is really complicated, but it clarifies that it is not ordinary seeing of visible object. As to more details on this practice, see Nyanatiloka Buddhist dictionary, under abhibhaayatana. One can take a large or small part of the body and use that as a kasina subject of meditation. I really do not know anything about this. I am not very interested in jhana, but I like to understand the suttas dealing with it. And I think that misunderstandings about jhana should be cleared up. I do not think I can be of much help with Abhidhamma texts about details of the jhana practice. It is as Larry says. In another post you spoke of bhumi. We have to differentiate bhumi as plane of existence: 31 planes. Bhumi as plane of citta: four planes. What plane a citta belongs to depends on the object that it experiences, that is all. Kaamavacaara citta experiences sense objects, different from the meditation subjects of jhanacitta, different from nibbana. What is the use of the citta plane which is ruupaavacaara if it is not different from kaamaavacara? It must be different. Nina. 44384 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:21am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Agrios: > [scientifc understanding of mind] has changed in past countless > times and will change in future. > So one can spend time again and again reasserting his views in > every emerging new situation, if one desires. The Buddha warned against speculative argumentation. This was a wise position for him to take since, in the Buddha's time, there was very little reliable scientific knowledge or technology to speak of. Therefore, most questions were purely in the realm of speculative opinion. Ancient India was steeped in impenetrable and unverifiable metaphysical philosophies and did not place strong value on the experimental method or critical thinking. We live in different times. Through careful observation, experiment and peer review we have patiently accumulated a vast body of scientifc knowledge undreamt of in the Buddha's time. I don't think that we should close ourselves off to the possibility that scientific understanding of the brain will always be irrelevant to dhamma practice. See my posts here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43585 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43610 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43849 > Buddhist practice goes in different direction. Yes, practice does. But besides practice, many Buddhists are also immersed in ancient Indian metaphysical explanations of the world. Matthew 44385 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:44am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma sunnaloka Hi Matthew, M: "the theory which I have expounded seems most probable." But your theory never goes beyond the analysis of conditioned temporal phenomena (even NDE’s and OBE’s are conditioned temporal phenomena). That is, all of the disciplines and methodologies of ‘science’ necessarily cannot study in any purely objective manor, nontemporal unconditioned experience (i.e. transcendent consciousness) which is purely subjective (actually transcends all notions of subject/object duality) and as such transcends all temporal reification of ‘time’ (duration) and ‘space’ (location). How could science ever refute that which transcends all relative analysis and measurement? Geoff P.S. A related sidebar would be: How could science ever study what 'was/is' before the big bang? If science could ever discover the 'first cause' they may be able to settle all scores once and for all, but how would it be possible to discover what caused all conditioned phenomena by only being able to employ the instruments of conditioned phenomena (including mathematics, etc.)? P.S.S. What thinks you Matthew, does the immediate present have duration? Stated another way, do you 'believe' in 'time'? 44386 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Nina, Thank you for your thoughtful reply to my queries. My specific question relates precisely to this statement: N: "What plane a citta belongs to depends on the object that it experiences, that is all. Kaamavacaara citta experiences sense objects, different from the meditation subjects of jhanacitta...." Is this described in Abhidhamma Pitaka in any detail at all? Does it state that rupavacara cannot include sense objects? Does it list meditation subjects of jhanacitta? I know that this is probably a fairly pointless inquiry from your perspective, but I hope you can realize that it’s important to me. Metta, Geoff 44387 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:44am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Geoff: > Science cannot study nontemporal unconditioned experience > (i.e. transcendent consciousness) which is purely subjective > (actually transcends all notions of subject/object duality) and as > such transcends all temporal reification of time > (duration) and space (location). Brain studies have found that the kinds of experiences you are describing can be induced in subjects by stimulating areas of the brain. What you describe as a "nontemporal unconditioned experience" is exactly how subjects describe experiences that occur when the brain's orientation association areas are shut off, either through drugs or meditation or otherwise. Without input from the orientation centers, the boundary between the self and the world is lost. The experience that arises has been variously described as one of no-self, merging with infinite timeless space, transcendence, and so forth. I see no reason to assume that these experiences involve access to any kind of "higher reality." See my earlier posts for more details: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43610 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43849 Matthew 44388 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings7 - Patience & Vexation nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you. I just read this to Lodewijk at dinner yesterday. We are doing now the Vipassana letters. While I read, I find it a good way to be reminded. Nina. op 14-04-2005 11:35 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > ">We need to develop the perfection of equanimity in order to learn to > accept with kusala citta the vicissitudes of life. Praise and blame are > only realities which arise because of their own conditions, in reality > people are not the cause of praise or blame. When people do wrong to us we > can develop metta if we see the value of metta. Instead of having aversion > about people's bad points we will try to remember their good qualities. If > they have none there can be compassion or there can be equanimity. There > can be equanimity when we remember that the real cause of unpleasant > experiences through the senses is not a person but our own kamma. 44389 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhana and bodily movement. nilovg Hi James, op 14-04-2005 07:06 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > James: But Sariputta attained arahantship within two weeks "half a > month"* of being ordained. To my understanding, he wasn't yet > proficient at jhana at that time because he hadn't practiced > previously. N: I have the wheel here as booklet. I do not know much about this. When he heard Assaji, only a few stanzas, he became a sotaapanna. But he had extraordinary talents. J:(Also, I don't readily agree that one can slip in and > out of jhana so rapidly, even when proficient, but I will let that > matter drop.) N: Another example is Moggallana, having the masteries of jhana. This can be read in the texts, about his iddhi powers. See Pali Proper Names, this is on line. Nina. 44390 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:40am Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma sunnaloka Hi Matthew, M: I see no reason to assume that these experiences involve access to any kind of "higher reality." Based on your temporal analysis, I see no reason to assume they don’t. (And it's not 'higher reality,' which assumes a relative relationship to something that is 'lower.' I'm not asserting any relative position whatsoever when I use terms like unconditioned, nontemporal, deathless, etc.. That is, these terms as I use them are not the mere dualistic opposite of their relative counterparts -- unconditioned is not the opposite of conditioned, etc.) But you’re avoiding my query: Do you assert that the immediate present has temporal duration? Yes or no. Geoff 44391 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 0:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Geoff, op 14-04-2005 17:03 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: > N: "What plane a citta belongs to depends > on the object that it experiences, that is all. Kaamavacaara citta > experiences sense objects, different from the meditation subjects of > jhanacitta...." > > Is this described in Abhidhamma Pitaka in any detail at all? Does it > state that rupavacara cannot include sense objects? Does it list > meditation subjects of jhanacitta? N: Dhammasangani 1019:Which are states that are limited (paritta)? All states [N;dhammas] good, bad and indeterminate, which relate to the universe of sense (kaamaavacara); in other words the five khandhas. N: Paritta (insignificant) denotes all kaamaavacaara dhammas. Dhsg 1020: Which are the states that are sublime (mahaggata)? States good, bad and indeterminate, which relate to the worlds of Form (rupaavacaara) and Formless (aruupaavacaara); [in other words] the four khandhas. N: Note: only the four namakhandhas, not rupa. Dsgn 1021: Which are the states that are infinite (appamaanaa)? The Paths that are the Unincluded, and the Fruits of the Paths, and unconditioned element. N: It goes on about which states have which objects. Dsgn 161: pathavikasina.m , the earth kasina is the subject of the jhanas. Thus, paritta is not mahaggata, they are definitely separated. Different objects. Nina. 44392 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 0:20pm Subject: Blind Monk- Howard buddhatrue Hi Howard and All, Sometime back we were having a discussion about the six sense bases and I mentioned a blind monk. At the time, I wasn't sure where the story had come from but I found it today when I began reading the Dhammapada. It is the background story for the first verse. Just thought I would share it (not trying to make a point or anything): "The Story of the Monk Cakkhupala (Verse 1): While residing at the Jetavana Monastery in Savatthi, the Buddha spoke this verse, with reference to Cakkhupala, a blind monk. On one occasion, Monk Cakkhupala came to pay homage to the Buddha at the Jetavana Monastery. One night, while pacing up and down in meditation, the monk accidentally stepped on some insects. In the morning, some monks visiting the monk found the dead insects. They thought ill of the monk and reported the matter to the Buddha. The Buddha asked them whether they had seen the monk killing the insects. When they answered in the negative, the Buddha said, "Just as you have not seen him killing, so also he had not seen those living insects. Besides, as the monk had already attained arahatship he could have no intention of killing, so he was innocent." On being asked why Cakkhupala was blind although he was an arahat, the Buddha told the following story: Cakkhupala was a physician in one of his past existences. Once, he had deliberately made a woman patient blind. That woman had promised to become his slave, together with her children, if her eyes were completely cured. Fearing that she and her children would have to become slaves, she lied to the physician. She told him that her eyes were getting worse when, in fact, they were perfectly cured. The physician knew she was deceiving him, so in revenge, he gave her another ointment, which made her totally blind. As a result of this evil deed the physician lost his eyesight many times in his later existences." http://buddhanet.net/ebooks_s.htm Metta, James Ps. Thanks for the compliment about my phrase-making in your past post. ;-) 44393 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 0:21pm Subject: Questions about nama and rupa lone_renunciant Hello there, While the satipatthana thread seems to be deadlocked, a few things come to mind, and, I will, as told, ask more questions about nama and rupa. If all things are impermanent, and arise and pass away, how, or why, is only one nama or rupa apparent at any given moment. Is it that more elements than one can arise simultaneously, but the mind can only have one object of consciousness at a time? If not, why couldn't we understand two rupa elements at once? Further, what is it that knows nama and rupa? Nama itself? Sati? Citta? It seems to me we could be mindful of many processes going on in our bodies at once. Why do people think this is not the case? Responses would be appreciated. -a.l. 44394 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 0:28pm Subject: [dsg] Re: jhana and bodily movement. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > op 14-04-2005 07:06 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > James: But Sariputta attained arahantship within two weeks "half a > > month"* of being ordained. To my understanding, he wasn't yet > > proficient at jhana at that time because he hadn't practiced > > previously. > N: I have the wheel here as booklet. I do not know much about this. When he > heard Assaji, only a few stanzas, he became a sotaapanna. But he had > extraordinary talents. Okay, thanks for the reply. If you have the time and the inclination, you can read the biography of Sariputta at this link: http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html Metta, James 44395 From: "agriosinski" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 0:30pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma agriosinski --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Miller" wrote: > > Agrios: > > [scientifc understanding of mind] has changed in past countless > > times and will change in future. > > So one can spend time again and again reasserting his views in > > every emerging new situation, if one desires. > > The Buddha warned against speculative argumentation. This was a wise > position for him to take since, in the Buddha's time, there was very > little reliable scientific knowledge or technology to speak of. > Therefore, most questions were purely in the realm of speculative > opinion. [...] Matthew, Buddha explained many times why there is no point in dwelling on ever changing opinions of the kind you and many of us have. His explanations have nothing to do with the amount or kind of evidence supporting any of them. All of them lead to dukkha. And penicillin leeds to dukkha as well. :) metta, Agrios 44396 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Blind Monk- Howard upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 4/14/05 3:23:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard and All, > > Sometime back we were having a discussion about the six sense bases > and I mentioned a blind monk. At the time, I wasn't sure where the > story had come from but I found it today when I began reading the > Dhammapada. It is the background story for the first verse. Just > thought I would share it (not trying to make a point or anything): > > "The Story of the Monk Cakkhupala (Verse 1): > > While residing at the Jetavana Monastery in Savatthi, the Buddha > spoke this verse, with reference to Cakkhupala, a blind monk. > > On one occasion, Monk Cakkhupala came to pay homage to the Buddha at > the Jetavana Monastery. One night, while pacing up and down in > meditation, the monk accidentally stepped on some insects. In the > morning, some monks visiting the monk found the dead insects. They > thought ill of the monk and reported the matter to the Buddha. The > Buddha asked them whether they had seen the monk killing the > insects. When they answered in the negative, the Buddha said, "Just > as you have not seen him killing, so also he had not seen those > living insects. Besides, as the monk had already attained > arahatship he could have no intention of killing, so he was > innocent." > -------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I remember this sutta, and I recall when 1st reading it how I marvelled at the Buddha's eminent sanity, his brilliant good sense so ahead of his time. -------------------------------------- On being asked why Cakkhupala was blind although he was > > an arahat, the Buddha told the following story: > > Cakkhupala was a physician in one of his past existences. Once, he > had deliberately made a woman patient blind. That woman had > promised to become his slave, together with her children, if her > eyes were completely cured. Fearing that she and her children would > have to become slaves, she lied to the physician. She told him that > her eyes were getting worse when, in fact, they were perfectly > cured. The physician knew she was deceiving him, so in revenge, he > gave her another ointment, which made her totally blind. As a > result of this evil deed the physician lost his eyesight many times > in his later existences." > http://buddhanet.net/ebooks_s.htm --------------------------------------- Howard: Whether or not kamma actually works in such a (literal) way - and I don't presume not - this is a great moral lesson. --------------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > Ps. Thanks for the compliment about my phrase-making in your past > post. ;-) > ---------------------------------- Howard: Oh, you're very welcome! :-) I calls 'em as I sees 'em!! ;-)) ================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44397 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:11pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Geoff: > But you're avoiding my query: Do you assert that > the immediate present has temporal duration? Yes or no. Sorry, Geoff, but you've lost me. I'm not sure what you're asking about here. Such questions are way too abstract for my poor primate brain!! :(( Matthew 44398 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:24pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Agrios: > And penicillin leeds to dukkha as well. :) Well, bacterial endocarditis, meningitis, pneumonia, syphilis and septicemia lead to some pretty serious dukkha too. I'll take the dukkha of penicillin over those any day! Matthew 44399 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:33pm Subject: Re: Questions about nama and rupa bupleurum a.l.: > It seems to me we could be mindful of many processes going on in our > bodies at once. Why do people think this is not the case? Because the Lord Buddha said so! C'mon, Andrew, get with the program! Matthew 44400 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Nina, > N: Dhammasangani 1019:Which are states that are limited (paritta)? > All states [N;dhammas] good, bad and indeterminate, which relate to > the universe of sense (kaamaavacara); in other words the five >khandhas. > N: Paritta (insignificant) denotes all kaamaavacaara dhammas. > Dhsg 1020: Which are the states that are sublime (mahaggata)? > States good, bad and indeterminate, which relate to the worlds of > Form (rupaavacaara) and Formless (aruupaavacaara); [in other words] > the four khandhas. > N: Note: only the four namakhandhas, not rupa. > Dsgn 1021: Which are the states that are infinite (appamaanaa)? The > Paths that are the Unincluded, and the Fruits of the Paths, and > unconditioned element. Thanks so much! This is exactly what I’m looking for. Is what you have as “universe of senseâ€? a translation of kamavacara? > N: It goes on about which states have which objects. > Dsgn 161: pathavikasina.m , the earth kasina is the subject of the jhanas. But does it state that earth kasina is necessarily *not* paritta and therefore *not* kamavacara? And does it give other objects (subjects) of jhana besides the ten kasinas? If so, does it state that these objects (subjects) are necessarily *not* paritta and therefore *not* kamavacara? Metta, Geoff 44401 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:58pm Subject: Re: Questions about nama and rupa christine_fo... Hello AndrewL, all, I know that you will receive replies from those with a good understanding of the Tipitaka, who will be able to explain the intricacies of what the Buddha taught about nama and rupa. I have also found this site to be worth wandering around in on a rainy afternoon, with a flask of hot tea and some toast and vegemite. :-) I enjoyed some of the 'Papers on consciousness'. http://consc.net/chalmers/ metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Miller" wrote: > > a.l.: > > It seems to me we could be mindful of many processes going on in our > > bodies at once. Why do people think this is not the case? > > Because the Lord Buddha said so! C'mon, Andrew, get with the program! > > Matthew 44402 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions about nama and rupa TGrand458@... Send Email In a message dated 4/14/2005 12:30:21 PM Pacific Standard Time, lone.renunciant@... writes: If all things are impermanent, and arise and pass away, how, or why, is only one nama or rupa apparent at any given moment. Is it that more elements than one can arise simultaneously, but the mind can only have one object of consciousness at a time? If not, why couldn't we understand two rupa elements at once? Further, what is it that knows nama and rupa? Nama itself? Sati? Citta? It seems to me we could be mindful of many processes going on in our bodies at once. Why do people think this is not the case? Responses would be appreciated. -a.l. Hi a.l. 1) According to Abhidhamma and I basically agree with this -- the mind can only pay attention to one thing at a time. Its just a limitation of the way our minds work. I think if you experiment with your own mind, you will find it very hard, if not impossible, to pay attention to more than one thing at once. The mind can shift back and forth very fast, but it is just going after one thing at a time. 2) Mental factors and consciousness (nama) is what is aware of mental factors, consciousness, and form. Being that form is also a structural support, we might even include form as a co-factor. TG 44403 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:04pm Subject: Re: The Brain on Dhamma sunnaloka Hi Matthew, M: Such questions are way too abstract for my poor primate brain!! :(( C’mon Matthew, you’re a smart guy! This is a very simple question: Is your experience of the immediate present -- what we could loosely call ‘nowness’ -- subject to duration? Stated another way, have you ever had any experience that wasn’t ‘now’? There’s nothing abstract about it, just a very straightforward answer to a very straightforward observation. Geoff 44404 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:31pm Subject: Re: A Question Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles Good point! ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 10 April, 2005 10:22 Subject: Re: A Question Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 >Jon Replied: I would think that only at moments of satipatthana and/or insight can there be a 'transforming' of the mundane, and then only in a figurative sense. >........................................................ > >Yes, especially when there is insight; however I am not sure what you mean by "in a figurative sense." I mean that a moment of mundane insight is not in itself a transforming moment, but it is by virtue of the accumulated effect of such moments that a transformation eventually occurs. Jon 44405 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles Hi Ken, K: Towards the end of your message, you asked: --------------- > What do you mean by "saddha, vicikiccha, adosa, dosa, and so on?" --------------- I was referring to paramattha dhammas (absolute realities), which I have been talking about throughout our discussion. If you study the Abhidhamma, you will find that it defines all of the things that really exist. At any point in time, including now, there are, really, only paramattha dhammas. The reason for studying the Buddha's teaching is to know those dhammas. ................................. The only one I recognize is dosa, i.e., suffering. ********************************************* C: > Faith is empty (neither wholesome or unwholesome), what you have faith-in can be considered wholesome or unwholesome. ----------------------------- K: Does what you have said there help us to understand the dhammas that are arising now? When you say "faith," are you referring to a dhamma? If so, which of the dhammas defined in the Abhidhamma is it? ............................................................................... In terms of the text (i.e., Abhidhamma) I do not remember what it defines as dhammas. Too answer your first question: If you view faith as a concept, and concepts as dhammas that can arise now, then yes. When I say faith I am speaking of a view/belief/concept that one has confidence in. It helps to shape the way people think. ****************************** C: > So, is your faith/confidence in the no-self doctrine "blind" or based on what you have experienced as true? ---------------------------------------------- K: As I have said several times, the paramattha dhamma known as "faith" (or, in Pali, "saddha") is never blind. So, if you want to talk about a moment of consciousness when there is 'blindness to the truth' then there is no point in referring to the paramattha dhamma known as "faith" - because it never arises at such moments. According to the Abhidhamma, 'blindness to knowledge' is the characteristic of the dhamma known as "moha" (ignorance). ........................................................................ This is interesting because "Faith" by definition is blind. To have faith, you have confidence in, not the experience in. ******************************************** C: > > > I don't understand what you are trying to say. ----------------------------------------------------- KH: > > I was simply trying to say what the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta says: There can't be right understanding of a dhamma when it is conceived with the notion, "This is mine" "This am I" or "This is my self." Do you have a different interpretation? -------------------------------------- C: > If at the moment of conception, with the three (I, my-self, mine), you are place/born in a cycle that leads to suffering, then you are right. However, if it does not place "you" in a cycle that leads to suffering, then you are wrong. Remember the real issues are "desire" and "attachment." Therefore, if you understand how to transform/transmute these two so that you can avoid the cycles of suffering, even when the three (I, my-self, mine) are born, you have the Right Understanding. ------------------------------------------------- K: Is that your interpretation of the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta (or of any other sutta)? If so, then I would like to discuss it further. Otherwise, I think we should stick to discussing dhammas. ........................................................................ This is not an interpretation, however it is my view. Simply put: the Right View is a view that does not cause suffering. All of the 8 are .... ***************************************************** KH: > > I would suggest that other disciplines (e.g., music, science, sport, religion) could be effectively studied and practised with unwholesome (as well as wholesome) consciousness. > As uninstructed worldlings, we can be pretty sure most of our listening will be for the wrong reasons (including subtle attachment). However, if there is a moment when the Dhamma is heard with non-attachment and non-aversion, then there is kusala consciousness at that one precious moment, and progress towards insight will be made. ----------------------------------- C: > This is also true (90%) for any type of study, science and music included, not just Dharama. I say 90% because if you look at that "insight" as just clear understanding alone then ... Now if that clear understanding is rooted in morality then, you are 100% correct. ------------------- K: Again, I would prefer we discuss the Dhamma as found in the ancient texts. So, when we refer to "insight" we should be referring to the paramattha dhamma known as "insight" (in Pali, "panna" "samma-ditthi" "vipassana"). Insight is always (100% of the time) rooted in morality. In other words, panna always co-arises with alobha (greedlessness) and adosa (harmlessness). ............................................................... By definition, "insight" refers to a deep understanding, often sudden. However, it can arise without attachment to morality. It refers to understanding, it relates to wisdom. Now most good Buddhist consider real wisdom to be rooted in morality. But, by definition it is not. So to avoid misunderstandings, I like to present the link. ********************************* C: When you say "... doubt (vicikiccha) ... is an unwholesome paramattha dhamma - it can never be a good thing." I am force to say, you are being one dimensional, extreme. You have lost sight of the Middle Path. --------------------------------- k: No, I am sure the Middle Path is to know the dhammas that are arising now. Vicikiccha is a dhamma that arises in certain kinds of unwholesome consciousness. It doubts the Dhamma (the 4NT's etc.). As Sarah has explained, a poor Pali-to-English translation of the Kalama Sutta has given the impression that vicikiccha can be a good thing (can arise in wholesome consciousness). ........................................................ The middle path is about avoiding extremes. *************************** C: > What the [Kalama Sutta] does tell us. If a teaching of any type, including a Buddha's, contradicts what you know to true, value what you know to be true more. ------------------------------------------------------- K: No, I am sure the Kalama Sutta tells us nothing of the sort. (See the Bhikkhu Bodhi article Christine referred us to.) According to the Abhidhamma, the only time we really "know something to be true" is in a moment of consciousness in which panna has arisen. The Buddha's teaching can never contradict such moments of panna because the Buddha's teaching *is* panna. ................................................................................ You need to read the suttra again because what I said is a paraphrase. ***************************************** To avoid misunderstandings please try to define, in English, the pali words you use. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: kenhowardau To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 09 April, 2005 16:30 Subject: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 44406 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:10pm Subject: Re: Questions about nama and rupa buddhatrue Hi Andrew, I will give my input to your questions. I like them because they are straightforward. Andrew: If all things are impermanent, and arise and pass away, how, or why, is only one nama or rupa apparent at any given moment. James: This is because there is no self. You are thinking in terms of a *self* which can observe two things at once, but that is not the way it is. "You" (nama/rupa) are a process and that process doesn't take place in parallel lines. For example, in simple terms, first there is seeing a tree- eye consciousness arises to see the tree- then that eye consciousness falls away to be replaced by mind consciousness which registers "tree"- then there is a sound, a taste, a physical sensation, etc. They each arise and pass away very quickly because there isn't a *self* which underlies them. To use an analogy, it is like writing your name on the surface of water with your finger. As soon as you have the tiniest bit written, the water closes again and it is gone (and this process is dukkha because it is so fleeting). Andrew: Is it that more elements than one can arise simultaneously, but the mind can only have one object of consciousness at a time? James: No, only one element can arise at a time. This process isn't like someone watching six television screens (one for each of the senses, and the mind) with input coming in at all times and the person just switches from television to television. That type of analogy supposes a *self* which is doing the watching. Andrew: Further, what is it that knows nama and rupa? Nama itself? Sati? Citta? James: Nama knows nama and nama knows rupa. There is that which is seen (object) and the seeing itself (registering in the mind); and the same for the other sense doors. Andrew: It seems to me we could be mindful of many processes going on in our bodies at once. Why do people think this is not the case? James: Actually, most people do think that they can be mindful of many processes at once, because they have the mistaken notion of a *self* doing the observing. The ego creates this illusion of the self because it is too painful and scary to realize that there is absolutely nothing permanent underlying the present moment. Metta, James 44407 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:19pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H Evan_Stamato... Chris, Thanks for the url. I had read this before but rereading it there is a paragraph which is of relevance to this discussion: ___________________________________________________________________________ The Commentaries speak even of a sukkhavipassaka arahant, an arahant who has gained the goal entirely through "dry insight," without any attainment of form-sphere jhÄ?na at all. Although such a type is not explicitly recognized in the NikÄ?yas, the question may be raised whether the Commentaries, in asserting the possibility of arahantship without attainment of jhÄ?na in the mundane portion of the path, have deviated from the Canon or brought to light a viable possibility implict in the older texts. The famous Satipaá¹á¹hÄ?na Sutta declares, in its conclusion, that all those who earnestly dedicate themselves to uninterrupted practice of the four establishments of mindfulness are bound to reap one of two fruits: either arahantship in this very life or, if any residue of clinging remains, the stage of non-returning. While several exercises within the Satipaá¹á¹hÄ?na Sutta are certainly capable of inducing the jhÄ?nas, the system as a whole seems oriented towards direct insight rather than towards the jhÄ?nas.[40] Thus this opens the question whether the Satipaá¹á¹hÄ?na Sutta might not be propounding a way of practice that leads all the way to non-returning, even to arahantship, without requiring attainment of the jhÄ?nas. This, however, is another question, one that lies beyond the scope of this paper. ___________________________________________________________________________ Unfortunately, being out of scope of this paper, Bhikkhu Bodhi does not discuss this issue further. Reading the Satipatthana sutta though (from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.html), the very first practice that is recommended by the Buddha is: ___________________________________________________________________________ [1] " There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. " Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. Just as a skilled turner or his apprentice, when making a long turn, discerns that he is making a long turn, or when making a short turn discerns that he is making a short turn; in the same way the monk, when breathing in long, discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short... He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication, and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. " In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. ___________________________________________________________________________ This surely would lead to the development of jhana. Apart from this, the rest of the sutta seems to advocate practices that are pure insight practices and may not lead to jhana. I don't have the experience to comment too deeply on this, however, it would appear that a study of whether the Buddha taught a process of pure insight as a way to arahantship would have to rely heavily on this sutta. Kind Regards, Evan Hello Jon, Evan, all, I'm not sure if Bhikkhu Bodhi's article has been mentioned this time round? 'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pâli Suttas' Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm metta, Chris 44408 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 4:41pm Subject: Vism.XIV,152 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 152. (xxx) It is the maker of what is to be made, it is the maker in the mind (manamhi kaaro), thus it is 'attention' (bringing-to-mind--manasi-kaara). It makes the mind different from the previous [life-continuum] mind, thus it is attention. It has three ways of doing this: as the controller of the object, as the contoller of the cognitive series, and as the controller of impulsions. Herein, the controller of 'the object' is the maker in the mind, thus it is 'attention'. That has the characteristic of conducting (saara.na). Its function is to yoke associated states to the object. It is manifested as confrontation with an object. Its proximate cause is an object. It should be regarded as the conductor (saarathi) of associated states by controlling the object, itself being included in the formations aggregate. 'Controller of the cognitive series' is a term for five-door adverting (70). 'Controller of impulsions' is a term for mind-door adverting (71). These last two are not included here. 44409 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:13pm Subject: Re:thinking processes. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - Many thanks for the expert answer you have given for sa.nkhaara, sa.nkhaara dhammas, sa.nkhata and sa.nkhata dhamma. But I am not as smart as you may think I am, so please allow me to ask some blunt questions as usual. N: Sa.nkhaara is derived from sa.nkharoti: combine, put together, compose (Thai: prung teng). Sa.nkhaara dhammas, dhammas that arise because of conditions. ... Sa.nkhaara dhamma refers to dhamma which depends on other dhammas that condition its arising. T: The above definition sounds to me more like sa.nkhaata dhamma than sa.nkhaara dhamma. Since sa.nkhaara means "combine or put together", why doesn't it follow that any sa.nkhaara dhamma cooks up (prung teng), or puts together ingredients to make other dhammas? For example, vitakka and vicara are vaci-sa.nkhaara because they form spoken words. Here spoken words are cooked up by vitakka and vicara, therefore they are sa.nkhaara dhammas. -------------- N: Sa.nkhata is past passive participle of sa.nkharoti. It refers to the dhammas which have arisen and then fall away. When the conditions fall away that dhamma which has arisen because of these also must fall away. ...Sa.nkhata dhamma refers to dhamma which, apart from being conditioned, is dhamma that arises and falls away. T: The above definition of sa.nkhata dhamma is so broad that it is confusing. Except Nibbana, all dhammas are sa.nkhata dhamma because they arise and fall away. Thus all sa.nkhaara dhammas, which depend on other dhammas that condition their arising, are also sa.nkhata? ----------------- N: Hence the Buddha taught that sa.nkhaara dhammas are also sa.nkhaata dhammas, dhammas which have been conditioned (Thai: prung teng lew). T: This is the most confusing point that I discussed above. Now, how should I understand that vitakka and vicara that condition words and the conditioned words themselves are both sa.nkhaara and sa.nkhaata dhammas at the same time? Again, since all dhammas, except Nibbana, are subject to arising-and-passing-away characteristic and because of conditions, does it follow that they perform two roles at the same time : i.e. they arise because something else conditions them to arise (thus, they are sa.nkhaata dhammas), and because of their arising phenomena other dhammas may arise as a consequence (hence they act as sa.nkhaara dhammas)? Kindest regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > op 13-04-2005 23:36 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > T: Aren't sankhara dhammas (formations or fabrications, depending > > on who the translator is) different from sankhata dhammas (all > > conditioned dhammas)? <'They formed the formed, Bhikkhus, that's > > why they are called formations'> > N: > They refer to the same dhammas: citta, cetasika and rupa, but there is a > slight difference in meaning that is emphasized. 44410 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New view on satipatthana 1 sarahprocter... Hi Andrew L, Back on your earlier letter: --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > S: What you describe as mindfulness, I see as a special focusing. The > > mindfulness which counters ignorance or aversion is not any > focusing, but > > the momentary awareness which arises, is aware of any dhamma appearing > > (without any selection) and falls away immediately. If there is a > wish or > > intention for it to arise or be aware of a particular object such as > > sensations in the body, this will be a hindrance, as I see it. > A:> And here we are. > > Please describe your concept of mindfulness in greater detail. Ie its > causes, characteristics, its scope, maybe we can get somewhere. .... S: [Pls read posts on sati in U.P. and the chapter on sati in ‘Cetasikas’ with quotes from the texts]. When we are discussing sati in satipatthana, as we are here, it can only be aware of a paramattha dhamma appearing. So when there is awareness of say seeing or visible object, sati is there. When there is awareness of hearing, sound, like, dislike, sati is there. How can its characteristic be known? Only by panna (understanding)which knows when there is and isn’t awareness. The cause is hearing the dhamma, wise reflection and a comprehension of what paramattha dhammas are or ‘firm remembrance’. For example, if there is the idea that awareness can be aware of the body or objects that can be made to arise, satipatthana cannot develop. So the characteristic is just being aware and the scope is the presently appearing paramattha dhamma. Sometimes friends ask why the stress on seeing, visible objects and other sense experiences and objects rather than all the more common mind door activity. The reason is that most this mind door activity is concerned with long, long stories about what is seen and heard, for example. At such moments of conceptualizing, no paramattha dhamma is appearing and so there cannot be any sati (of satipatthana). In between, however, there are experiences through the sense doors and also paramattha dhammas appearing through the mind door. These can be directly known because they are the ‘realities’. ..... > > S: the four foundations are the proximate cause: hardness, softness, > heat, > > cold, feeling, anger, attachment, seeing, visible object – these are > > examples of dhammas included in the four foundations. Without the > arising > > of such dhammas, mindfulness cannot be mindful when one appears (i.e > is > > the object of the javana cittas). It's impossible for mindfulness or > any > > other dhamma to be `aroused intentionally' except in our imaginations. > A:> Well aren't all dhammas 'arising' and passing each moment? When you > say knowing the arising and passing of a dhamma isn't it only meant > 'each one as it arises to'.. say attention? Or a specific citta? .... S:Yes, all dhammas are arising and passing each moment. Actually I said ‘Without the arising of such dhammas, mindfulness cannot be mindful when one appears’. What I meant is that the javana cittas take an object – either a concept or a reality. If it is a reality, such as visible object which has just been seen and if awareness, understanding and other wholesome cetasikas arise, it can be known at that moment. The wholesome cittas are accompanied by at least 18 wholesome mental factors performing their respective functions. These mental factors are all arising and passing away continually along with the citta. These and your later questions are good ones to clarify. Pls ask further if it’s not clear. .... A:> Couldn't you see it being "aroused intentionally" by a specific method > that is more than just the element of "wishing for"? .... S: No. How can visible object be aroused intentionally now rather than say sound or heat? As James suggests (if I follow correctly)in response to your other post, such ideas are rooted in an idea of self. .... > > S: It's helpful, very helpful, to read and reflect on different > realities > > as you're doing. I'm not exactly sure of your Qu, but if you're > wondering > > if we can think ourselves into being aware of dhammas, then the > answer is > > no. We can read and consider in order to understand dhammas as anatta > > better, but not specially try to experience what we read about. > A:> Sure we can think ourselves through things. You had to think to pay > for CMA didn't you? Similarly we can start with thinking and get > ourselves to a point where we can be more aware and so on. But then > again I don't want to touch on where we talk about > self-belief-motivated practise eventually eliminating belief of self. > Did we ever settle that? > > Looks like this is becoming a big stumbling block. .... S: What we take for me or you thinking to pay for CMA is conventional talk for many, many moments of thinking and other realities which are not self. I said that self-belief can never eradicated the belief in self because it’s sakkaya ditthi. Any (micha) ditthi can only lead to more (micha) ditthi, not to samma ditthi. It’s like thinking that anger is the way to develop metta or harsh speech is the way to cultivate gentle speech. It makes no sense to me. .... > > S: I would say, be wary of any advice in the name of `a noble one'. > See my > > Musings2 post. Noting `aversion, aversion' where it appears is not the > > development of satipatthana as I understand. Andrew, please don't be > > misled by what you've heard about others' attainments. > A:> Well no one told me he's a noble one but he certainly seemed to act in > a way completely in accord with dhamma (righteous conduct) and made a > sensible statement before that about the dhamma. .... S: As it said in the sutta I quoted recently, we can only know about another’s wisdom by careful questioning over a long time and IF we have the wisdom to know. There are examples in the suttas of arahants not recognizing other arahants until they’d conversed at length. .... A:> I guess I just > assumed. But even if he's not arya, isn't it good to see a True Man, > as they're called in the suttas? His point seems to be OK. I brought > up the example of waiting for the bus that morning and having the sun > make me want to walk away and this is what he told me to do. Isn't > anger/annoyance and so on just aversion? Recognizing it as such seems > fine to me, I guess you could say calling it something isn't > recognizing it, but it's better to label it and act equanimiously than > letting it go unknown and influence me to do something rooted in > aversion, don't you think? .... S: Good friends that point out treasures are always worthy of respect. There’s no need to speculate about them. What you say is fine and even theoretically understanding what the real problems in our life are is useful. Better still would be to understand the dhammas as anatta, otherwise it’s still my annoyance, anger, equanimity and so on that we’re so attached to. Metta, Sarah ======= 44411 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhana and bodily movement. sarahprocter... Hi Nina & Htoo, Yes, I think you have explained it clearly for the examples given. A difficult topic. Before you had a discussion with Htoo (below) and so I raised your qu. with K.Sujin. I think her answer is just as you've indicated in your recent message. As I recall, she said the abhinnas are jhana cittas which condition the kamavacara cittas to perform different functions. For example,the actual seeing in dibbacakkhu nana which Htoo refers to, is kamavacara seeing conditoned by the abhinna which gives it the special power to perform the special functions. I understand there are different kinds of wisdom (or nanas)at the different moments with the rapidly changing processes of cittas as you suggest. I hope this helps and that I've got it correct. Metta, Sarah ======== In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote (#40913): > Dear Htoo, > When supernatural powers are being performed, what plane of cittas are there > at that moment? Kaamavacara cittas accompanied by paññaa or jhanacittas? > Nina. > op 10-01-2005 17:57 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > The Buddha has to be fast because yamaka patihara or miracles do have > > beneficial effects and to produce these miracle effects, He has to > > switch on and off different jhanas with different kasinas very > > quickly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo:>Dear Nina, This is very good question. It is a hard question as well. To be honest I do not know. But what the text says is that BBBB..BBBMPUAGAb.... After gotrabhu there arise Abhinna-jhana-javana and then see everything with divine eye if it is dibbacakkhu nana, hear with divine ear if it is dibbasota nana, see all lives in the past if it is pubbenivasa nana, see what is inside of others' mind if it is paracittavijjanana nana, and many other. It is hard to explain. That is why it is said that there are areas that ordinary people should not appraoch and explore.< 44412 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, Back to our detective work on the little boy’s cittas:-) --- htootintnaing wrote: > Htoo: > > 3 virati cetasikas arise in single out of 3. > > If 'kaaya-ducarita virati' arises, vaci-ducarita virati and > macchaajiva virati do not arise. When vaci-ducarita virati arises, > kaaya-ducarita virati and macchaajiiva virati do not arise. When > macchaajiiva virati arises, kaaya-ducarita virati and vaci-ducarita > virati doe not arise. They are mutually exclusive in 8 mahakusala > cittas. ... S: Yes, no suggestion otherwise. ... H: > Let us go back to the boy. He is purely reading. Just go for a single > profile of one moment of javana citta in the middle of reading. > > He reads and apperceives that 'a' means 'one and unspecified > representative of the whole group of something'. Here javana > is 'understanding' of the concept 'a' and its meaning. > > The object is no more vision of the word on the page of the book but > the object is pannatti, which bears ''the meaning of the word'a' in > its full essence.'' ... S: OK, if this is what you meant by ‘purely reading and learning’ before:-). I think the goal-posts may have been moved a little, but that's fine. .... <...> H:> Among these 20 javana cittas, 12 cittas are akusala cittas and 8 > cittas are mahakusala cittas. > > He is reading. One of javana cittas while he is reading has to be one > of these 20 cittas. ... S: OK. ... H:> When he is reading, he is not directed to kaaya-ducarita or > kaayasucarita, vaci-ducarita or vaci-sucarita. He is not linked with > livelihood when reading. ... S: If you’re taking ‘reading’ as one javana moment with the concept ‘a’ then I follow you:-) ... H:> I do not believe he will be in the middle of javana cittas with any > of 3 virati cetasikas while reading. ... S: OK. Usually when we refer to reading or learning, we’re referring to a concept which consists of many, many javana processes, but I follow you now. .... H:> I know your examples. If he is taking his sister's computer and the > mind is not at reading of words on the screen but on the position of > computer then it may well be kaaya-ducarita. But I already > said 'purely reading'. He is absorbed in reading and unperturbable at > that moment. .... S: OK, we're now looking at 'reading and learning' in terms of one moment, being absorbed with the concept 'a'. .... H: > Purely reading. > Sarah continued: > > Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes. > ***** > ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: :-)) :-)) :-)) ... S: :-)) ...> H:> I have been contemplating. I already said that it is written in a > book written in Myanmar. I already told you the author. I did not say > I accept or do not accept. ... S: Ah, another wrong assumption on my part – an assumption that when you write a thread that you agree with your message:-). ...> H:> But generally I agree that when a boy is reading his school lessons, > most of his javana cittas will be akusala cittas. ... S: So we both agree here now, at least. ... > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- <...> > S:Yes, but we can't say that just because it isn't akusala kamma > patha, that it must be kusala:-/I don't think this is 'simplicity :-). > .... > ***** > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Generally yes. We cannot overgeneralize. But there are 2 > alternative that is 8 mahakusala cittas and 12 akusala cittas while > the boy is 'PURELY READING AND UNDERSTANDING'. Here I add, > UNDERSTANDING. > > If understanding involve, how will you say? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- S: I would say most likely it’s akusala because the understanding of the book has nothing to do with panna (wisdom) and the cittas are rooted in lobha or moha at such times. The concentration is unwholesome, though the results seem so good. This is like most of our day. When we understand the news in the paper or the road signs when driving or the cookery book recipe, there’s nothing wholesome about it when there's no dana, sila or bhavana involved ... > ... > S: Most likely it is lobha:-). > ... <...> > Htoo: > > You missed the point. I was not talking on uddhacca-cetasika. I was > talking on uddhacca-citta. Please re-read my earlier reply. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- .. S: Yes, but I’m not ruling out attachment as you are at these times. There’s so much attachment when we read or study. As you know, there doesn’t even have to be pleasant feeling. ... H:> There left 10 akusala cittas and 8 mahakusala cittas. If he is not in > the state of happiness and just indifferent then there will be 4 > lobha cittas and 4 mahakusala cittas left. > > If he is not disturbed by reading and by understanding of his > lessons, there is no reason to arise dosa, while he is PURELY READING > AND UNDERSTANDING. > > So there left 2 alternatives > > a) 4 lobha mula cittas > b) 4 mahakusala cittas > > If he is alert and no need to be self-stimulated or self-prompted > there will be 2 alternatives. > > a) 2 lobha cittas > b) 2 mahakusala cittas > > These cittas are difficult to be differentiated. > > a) Moha, uddhacca, ahirika, anottappa > b) Saddha, sati, hiri, ottappa > > But how does he understand his school lesson with 2 lobha cittas? > There is no panna in 2 lobha cittas. .... S: Most of the day we function very well without panna, but with lobha. Lobha makes the world go round....If it is not samatha or satipatthana, there’s no panna. Where is the saddha, sati, hiri and ottappa? Concentrating on school lessons and even being top of the class doesn’t need any panna at all. Metta, Sarah ======= 44413 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 0:06am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 167- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] Thus we see that there are different aspects to right effort. We read in the scriptures about “four right endeavours” and these are aspects of right effort. We read for example in the Middle Length Sayings (III, 141, the Analysis of the Truths) that Såriputta explained to the monks the four noble Truths. He spoke about dukkha, its origination, its cessation and the way leading to its cessation, the eightfold Path. He explained about right effort, one of the factors of the eightfold Path, that there are four right endeavours: * "And what, your reverences, is right endeavour? As to this, your reverences, a monk generates desire, endeavours, stirs up energy, exerts his mind and strives for the non-arising of evil unskilled states that have not arisen… for the getting rid of evil unskilled states that have arisen… for the arising of skilled states that have not arisen… for the maintenance, preservation, increase, maturity, development and completion of skilled states that have arisen. This, your reverences, is called right endeavour." * ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44414 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sarahprocter... Hi Geoff, I respect your keen questioning and understand that you wish to stick to suttas and the Abhidhamma texts themselves. There's a relevant controversy in the Kathavatthu under 'Hearing in Jhana', but you may not accept the Kathavatthu as part of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. If you'd like me to type the details, let me know- it's not too long and very entertaining. Briefly, as the commentary summarises the controversy: "the opionion is held by some...that because the Exalted One called a sound a thorn to First Jhana, and since sound, if not heard, cannot be a thorn in the flesh of one who had attained that state, it was inferable that such an one was able to hear." Naturally, this is refuted. I think if you also read this message of Nina's it may be helpful even though it's quoting from the commentaries: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34078 Metta, Sarah ===== 44415 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, Vis. III, note 4. sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for this on MN 117,14. I saw the page referenced as M.iii,73 but > didn't catch the note on vitakka as intention. I still don't see where > this (below) paragraph comes from. Is it somehow a different translation > of MN 117,14 beginning with "The thinking, thought, intention, ..." or > possibly a different version of MN that the Vism. commentator > (Dhammapaala) was working with? B. ~Naa.namoli translated both. ... S: I think we can get this one - I just checked the Pali: > Vism.III, note 4. 'Applied thought that occurs as though absorbing > (appento) assocated states in the object is absorption (appanaa). > Accordingly it is described as "absorption, absorbing (appanaa > vyappanaa)" (M.iii,73). ... S: As I read the note you gave here, the only part in quotes from Miii,73 is "absorption, absorbing (appanaa vyappanaa)" .... > Vism.117,14. 'And what, bhikkhus, is right intention that is noble, > taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The thinking, thought, > intention, mental absorption, mental fixity, ... S: the Pali for these last two items is: appanaa vyappanaa ..... >directing of mind, verbal > formation in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who > possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path*: this is > right intention that is noble....a factor of the path." .... S: I'd also like to stress that the reference here to appanaa is only used for lokuttara samma sankappa and not for mundane samma sankappa which was defined as follows: "And what, bhikkhus, is right intention that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening on the side of attachment? The intention of renunciation, the intention of non-ill will, and the intention of non-cruelty: this is right intention that is affected by taints...on the side of attachment." This stresses how the lokuttara factors are considered as equivalent to first jhana in degree of intensity if higher jhanas have not been obtained, as I understand the passages. Metta, Sarah p.s Nanamoli's translations do differ a lot in different places with the most controversial being in 'Path of Discrimination'. B.Bodhi discusses this aspect in the Preface. "In place of Ven Nanamoli's novel renderings I have in most cases returned to the clearer and better established terminology he employed in 'The Path of Purification'. Lots more detail is given inc details of 'terminological changes' if you're interested. 44416 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Attainments sarahprocter... Hi Evan. I don't know that anyone replied to your questions, very understandably:-). --- Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: > > I gather that from some of the discussions I have been having here that > some do not believe that the attainments of practitioners and monks are > as great as they were in the times of the Buddha. Although I would agree > with that statement, I think it is to the extent of the diminishing of > the attainments that I would probably not agree on. ... S: I think that we can only determine for ourselves how very little understanding or true calm there is in a day. How easily we fool ourselves that pleasant states, concentration or unusual experiences are what we read about in the texts under the umbrellas of vipassana, satipatthana, samatha or jhana. Perhaps the more we learn the more we can see just how much ignorance and attachment has been accumulated and how little awareness there is in a day. Is it the same for others? We can only question and consider their comments on the Truths and see if these accord with what we read or understand with our very limited knowledge. In the end, it doesn't matter and I don't see it as being very helpful to speculate. The most important thing is to stress that any wisdom is anatta - it doesn't belong to anyone. You may like to also look in U.P. at 'Sasana- decline'. Metta, Sarah ===== > So, what I would be interested in knowing is what peoples' thoughts are > on this topic - specifically: > > 1. Are there any monks in this time (in the past 100 years say) > that have attained arahantship or any of the other supramundane > attainments? > 2. Are there any lay people who have attained to any of the fruits > and knowledge of the path? > 3. Are there any monks who easily attain jhana and/or insight > knowledges? > 4. Are there any lay people who easily attain jhana and/or insight > knowledges? > > I look forward to the responses. 44417 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 0:30am Subject: Samma Samadhi...!!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Five Criteria for Evaluation of Right Concentration: After emerging from the deepest states so far attained one reviews it thus: 1: This absorption is Happy now, and results in future happiness too... 2: This absorption is Noble, and unrivalled by anything in this world... 3: This absorption is not reached by inferior or unworthy persons... 4: This absorption is entered upon & emerged from by me fully aware... 5: This absorption is perfectly Calm, Stilled, Unified, and neither fabricated, suppressible, reversible nor deniable... Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 34 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44418 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dialogue with Htoo 2 htootintnaing S: Most of the day we function very well without panna, but with lobha. Lobha makes the world go round....If it is not samatha or satipatthana, there's no panna. Where is the saddha, sati, hiri and ottappa? Concentrating on school lessons and even being top of the class doesn't need any panna at all. Metta, Sarah ======= -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Few.....! Now we get the point. There are 10 kinds or 10 methods of speaking. I used one of these 10. That method is 'crossing the flowing river'. When we cross the flowing river we have to move up stream on the side so that we can get the right spot on the other side. Now 'the role' of pannindria cetasika comes out brilliantly. That is Eistein did not have panna when he thought out relavity theory. Newton did not have panna when he discovered gravity. Galileo did not have panna when he discovered the earth goes roung the sun. With respect, Htoo Naing PS: You may have read about 'tikkha and mandha' in case of magga-appana- vithi vara. 44419 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:39am Subject: Dhamma Thread (329) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa 22. asannasatta, 21. vehapphala 20. subhakinhnaa, 19. appamaanasubhaa, 18. parittasubhaa 17. aabhassara, 16. appamaanaabhaa, 15. parittaabhaa 14. mahaabrahmaa, 13, brahmapurohitaa, 12. brahmaparisajjaa 11. paranimmita vassavatii deva realm 10. nimmanarati deva realm 9. tusitaa deva realm 8. yaamaa deva realm 7. taavatimsaa deva realm 6. catumaharaajika deva realm There are 6 deva bhumis or deva realms. They are also called kaama sugati bhumi. Kaama means 'sensuous'. Sugati means 'agreeable direction or destination' or 'happy destination'. Bhuumi means 'common place where all the beings of the same species, the same characters dwell, stay, live, grow, enjoy. Where do they go when they die in these 6 realms of deva? Where did they come from before they are reborn in these 6 realms of deva? If the beings in these 6 deva realms are tihetuka beings they may be reborn in any of 31 realms and this will depend on their maturition. a) They can go to 4 apaaya bhumi or 4 woeful destinations. b) They can be reborn as a human being. c) They can be reborn in the same realm or other deva realms. d) They can be reborn in 20 brahma bhumis if they have jhanas. The last group also comprise 5 pure-abode or 5 suddhavaasa brahma bhumis where ariya brahmas are reborn. This happen when ariya deva beings are anagams and they die in their deva realms and then will be reborn in one of these 5 ariya bhumis. Where did they come from before rebirth at these 6 deva realms? a) All 4 arupa brahmas can be reborn in any of these 6 deva realms. b) All rupa brahmas with the exception of asannasatta can be reborn in any of these 6 deva realms. Asannasatta will be reborn in vehapphala brahma bhumi as they are 4th jhana brahmas. c) Any of beings in any of 6 deva realms may be reborn as deva beings. d) Human beings can go to any of 6 deva realm as next life rebirth. e) Beings of 4 apaaya bhumis may be reborn in any of 6 deva realms depending on their past life kusalas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44420 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:23am Subject: RE: [dsg] Attainments Evan_Stamato... Sarah, I only raised it as a question because there seemed to be quite a bit of doubt from a number of posters here about whether any beings in this time attain any of the fruits of the path. I just asked out of curiosity more than anything else. Kind Regards, Evan S: I think that we can only determine for ourselves how very little understanding or true calm there is in a day. How easily we fool ourselves that pleasant states, concentration or unusual experiences are what we read about in the texts under the umbrellas of vipassana, satipatthana, samatha or jhana. Perhaps the more we learn the more we can see just how much ignorance and attachment has been accumulated and how little awareness there is in a day. Is it the same for others? We can only question and consider their comments on the Truths and see if these accord with what we read or understand with our very limited knowledge. In the end, it doesn't matter and I don't see it as being very helpful to speculate. The most important thing is to stress that any wisdom is anatta - it doesn't belong to anyone. You may like to also look in U.P. at 'Sasana- decline'. Metta, Sarah 44421 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > TM does nothing (IMO) other than provide a neutral meditation subject >along with the standard instructions to gently return the attention to that >subject whenever it is noticed that the mind has wandered. Such a practice will, >if other appropriate conditions are in place, lead to the jhanas. Without >needed supporting conditions it will not. There is really no "big deal" about TM >at all. > > TM aside, though, let's consider further the practice you describe here, because it relates to the question of jhana. Are you suggesting that the training of the mind in this manner would be an instance of kusala? Merely paying attention to a 'neutral subject' does not fit with any of the kinds of kusala I have seen described. You mention other appropriate conditions. What do you have in mind here? Jon 44422 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma jonoabb Hi Geoff Thanks for filling us in on the background to your query. You say in subsequent posts that if you cannot be shown a direct canonical statement to the same effect as the commentary, you will adopt the plain and literal interpretation of the suttas as advocated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. May I suggest that a better course would be to keep an open mind about the whole thing for the time being. You see, most (almost all) modern teachers and writers reject one part or another of the commentaries, but there is no unanimity among them as to which part that should be, or the reason for rejecting it. In general, they find reasons for rejecting the part or parts that don't fit with their views. As far as I know, TB is alone among modern teachers on this particular point. I am not going to try and persuade you of the correctness of the commentarial position, but I would like to make a couple of observations in the light of the passage you have quoted. First, I think it's true to say that there's no actual inconsistency between the commentarial statements and the sutta texts on this point; it is really a matter of the commentaries going to a level of detail that is not found in the suttas (this at least seems to be the position as far as TB is concerned). Now there is nothing remarkable about this; it is the purpose and function of the commentaries to fill in details that those with a lesser level of understanding need in order to grasp the message of the Buddha's actual words. Secondly, it is not a correct characterisation of the Visuddhimagga (The Path of Purification) to say that it describes a meditation practice in which one stares at an external object until the image of the object is imprinted in one's mind. That is a rather crude approximation of a much more subtle and worthy form of kusala mental development that the text deals with. Thirdly, as regards anapanasati, it is often suggested that the Buddha gave a step-by-step teaching on this form of samatha, but that is not the case in my view. If you look carefully at the suttas usually relied on for this assertion (Satipatthana S, Mindfulness of Breathing S), you'll see that what he taught in those suttas was how insight can be developed along with already developed anapanasati, and in particular how jhana consciousness can become the basis for the attainment of enlightenment in highly developed beings. >I will quote Ajahn Thanissaro as to why I’m inquiring about >canonical confirmation regarding the commentarial definition of jhana >as a state of ‘fixed samadhi’ devoid of sensory form >perception which is replaced by the appearance of a mental >countersign to be the object of jhana, and this object is not a >paramattha dhamma because it apparently isn’t subject to >momentary change (this is the commentarial definition of jhana as I >presently understand it, if I’m wrong on this please correct >me). > > I would not say that what is described here is a commentarial 'definition' of jhana. I think jhana is regarded as a plane of consciousness different to that of ordinary (kamavacara) consciousness, and I think it is this that 'defines' jhana. In any event, I am not familiar with the term 'fixed samadhi', and would be interested to know where it comes from. Jon >In Wings to Awakening: Part III-F, Ajahn Thanissaro says: > >"Part of the controversy over this question [as to whether or not >jhana is necessary for transcendent panna] may be explained by the >fact that the commentarial literature defines jhana in terms that >bear little resemblance to the canonical description. The Path of >Purification -- the cornerstone of the commentarial system -- takes >as its paradigm for meditation practice a method called kasina, in >which one stares at an external object until the image of the object >is imprinted in one's mind. The image then gives rise to a >countersign that is said to indicate the attainment of threshold >concentration, a necessary prelude to jhana. ... > 44423 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/15/05 9:09:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jsabbott@... writes: > TM aside, though, let's consider further the practice you describe here, > because it relates to the question of jhana. Are you suggesting that > the training of the mind in this manner would be an instance of kusala? > Merely paying attention to a 'neutral subject' does not fit with any of > the kinds of kusala I have seen described. You mention other > appropriate conditions. What do you have in mind here? > > Jon > ========================= All that I can tell you is that it leads to calm and into the jhanas. I know this first-hand. The calm and peace is clearly wholesome. Among the other supports are a degree of energy and calm to begin with. At the NY Buddhist Vihara, Jon, the head monk once told me that I had definitely entered jhana using a TM mantra, and he also said I could just as well use "1,2,3,4; 4,3,2,1" repeatedly!!!! The point is that concentration DOES lead to calm. With metta, Howard With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44424 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:58am Subject: Re: Attainments kelvin_lwin Hi Evan, As long as the teachings are still available and understood it's still possible. Even if it's not there will always be pacceka- buddhas. > 1. Are there any monks in this time (in the past 100 years say) > that have attained arahantship or any of the other supramundane > attainments? yes, many practice and the most successful ones are the ones who are completely unknown. > 2. Are there any lay people who have attained to any of the fruits > and knowledge of the path? yes, http://www.vri.dhamma.org/newsletters/nl9811.html > 3. Are there any monks who easily attain jhana and/or insight > knowledges? many > 4. Are there any lay people who easily attain jhana and/or insight > knowledges? if one is devoted enough or have sufficient paramis then why not? - kel 44425 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:02am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 167- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (j) kelvin_lwin Hi All, Doesn't this seem directed by sense of self and bound to be akusala? - kel > "And what, your reverences, is right endeavour? As to this, your > reverences, a monk generates desire, endeavours, stirs up energy, > exerts his mind and strives for the non-arising of evil unskilled states > that have not arisen… for the getting rid of evil unskilled states that > have arisen… for the arising of skilled states that have not arisen… > for the maintenance, preservation, increase, maturity, development > and completion of skilled states that have arisen. This, your > reverences, is called right endeavour." 44426 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhana and bodily movement. nilovg Hi James, Exactly, that is the wheel I have as a booklet, and it is very good. Nina. op 14-04-2005 21:28 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > If you have the time and the > inclination, you can read the biography of Sariputta at this link: > http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel090.html 44427 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions about nama and rupa nilovg Hello Andrew A, It is as James said, there is < the mistaken notion of a *self* doing the observing.> I try if I can add something. I also like your questions. op 14-04-2005 21:21 schreef Andrew Levin op lone.renunciant@...: Many elements arise and fall away, citta is accompanied by several cetasikas. But, as James explained, only one object at a time can be known. > A: Further, what is it that knows nama and rupa? Nama itself? Sati? > Citta? N: Citta is nama and it can cognize nama and rupa. Sati also knows, paññaa also knows, but they each know in their own way. Paññaa investigates the true nature of nama and rupa while sati is aware of them, but only one dhamma is known at a time, either nama or rupa. When the theoretical understanding is correct we can reflect on nama and rupa and consider them when they occur now. I quote from my Vipassana Letters (Ch 6) which I read to Lodewijk today, at dinner time. Nina. 44428 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The concept of time, Geoff. nilovg Hi Geoff, You could read: Abhidhamma Studies, Ven. Nyanaponika, about the concept of time. Many aspects, very good. Nina. op 14-04-2005 22:11 schreef Matthew Miller op bupleurum@...:> > Geoff: >> But you're avoiding my query: Do you assert that >> the immediate present has temporal duration? Yes or no. > 44429 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Blind Monk- Howard nilovg Hi James, I like this story. it shows the Buddha's compassion when he said: "Besides, as the monk had already attained arahatship he could have no intention of killing, so he was innocent." As in the Vinaya, we read that monks asked whether this was akusala kamma and the Buddha asked: did he have the intention to do this? Nina. op 14-04-2005 21:20 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > "The Story of the Monk Cakkhupala (Verse 1): 44430 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Geoff, op 14-04-2005 22:40 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: >> N: Dhammasangani 1019:Which are states that are limited (paritta)? >> All states [N;dhammas] good, bad and indeterminate, which relate to >> the universe of sense (kaamaavacara); in other words the five >> khandhas. >> N: Paritta (insignificant) denotes all kaamaavacaara dhammas. >> Dhsg 1020: Which are the states that are sublime (mahaggata)? Is what you have as “universe of senseâ€? a translation of > kamavacara? N: Yes. I use the PTS transl which is not always clear next to the Pali text I have. It would be useful for you, being a pali student. > >> N: It goes on about which states have which objects. >> Dsgn 161: pathavikasina.m , the earth kasina is the subject of the > jhanas. > G: But does it state that earth kasina is necessarily *not* paritta and > therefore *not* kamavacara? And does it give other objects (subjects) > of jhana besides the ten kasinas? If so, does it state that these > objects (subjects) are necessarily *not* paritta and therefore *not* > kamavacara? N: Yes, they are under the heading of ruupaavacara-kusala.m, Ch II. § 203: When, he may attain to the heavens of form, he cultivates the way [thereto], aloof from sensuous desires, aloof from evil ideas, and so, by the artifice of water fire air blue-black yellow red white... enters into and abides in the First jhana...> § 263 deals with the asubha. About corpses. Now Book 2 of the Abhidhamma, the Vibhanga, Ch 12. At the end there is an Interrogation, very short and compact. Three jhanas should not be said to have low objects or sublime objects; sometimes have immeasurable object.... The fourth jhaana sometimes has low (paritta) object; sometimes has sublime object; sometimes has immeasurable object... Here I was puzzlled, but there is a possibility I had overseen: the superpowers. These have as base the fourth jhana, and, as the Co, the Dispeller of Delusion (p.101) says, they have the body as object in the performing of miracles with a visible body... So, when w elook at the Co and then return to the text we see that we could have known, but the Co. drew our attention to this possibility. This is a way to check whether you find it helpful to sometimes look at a co. Another phrase: Three jhanas should not be said to have low objects or sublime objects. The Co explains: they have a sign as object. A sign is not a sense object, a paritta object. One can really stumble without the Co. The Atthasalini is the Co to the Dhammasangani. This mentions also (as I referred to) the example of Kalama Alara who did not hear the sound of five hundred Carts. The Points of Controversy debates about sound being a thorn for jhana. It is explained that when in jhana one does not hear nor see. Nina. 44431 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 0:34pm Subject: Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Jon: > > Merely paying attention to a 'neutral subject' does not fit with > > any of the kinds of kusala I have seen described. Howard: > All that I can tell you is that it leads to calm and into the > jhanas. I know this first-hand. The calm and peace is clearly > wholesome. This is an interesting question. Is it possible to have "calm and peace" which is somehow *not* kusala? By contrast, is it possible to have pain and suffering that *is* kusala? An analogy from the medical field (where I work) would be certain treatments (such as, say, chemotherapy) that cause suffering in the short-term, but are ultimately "wholesome" (e.g. curative). Is there a something similar in the theory of kusala/akusala? Matthew 44432 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 0:57pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 167- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (j) buddhistmedi... Dear Kel - The question you posted reminds me of a number of topics that were discussed/debated here not very long ago. For example: Are 'deliberate practice' and 'sitting meditation' considered akusala? Is sitting (samatha) meditation tampered with the 'self' and lobha? I remember even the 'serious' meditation effort as suggested by monks (e.g. Ven. Ledi Sayadaw) was labeled as miccha vayama. "I wouldn't want to make this or any other aspect of the Teachings into `daily meditations' sort of thing. Otherwise the `self' would surely come in to try to arrange things." I thought such discussion is a dead battery. So why do you want to jumpstart it? Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi All, > > Doesn't this seem directed by sense of self and bound to be akusala? > > - kel > > > "And what, your reverences, is right endeavour? As to this, your > > reverences, a monk generates desire, endeavours, stirs up energy, > > exerts his mind and strives for the non-arising of evil unskilled > states > > that have not arisen… for the getting rid of evil unskilled states > that > > have arisen… for the arising of skilled states that have not arisen… > > for the maintenance, preservation, increase, maturity, development > > and completion of skilled states that have arisen. This, your > > reverences, is called right endeavour." 44433 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:36pm Subject: Re: Questions about nama and rupa kelvin_lwin Hi AndrewL, Others have responded to this but I wanted to refer again to something Tep posted to ask BB in #43885. The mind is serial, only one exist at any given time according to abhidhamma. Now for beginners, objects and awareness are faint. Then it many things will come into awareness field and it'll seem simultaneous. It's fine as awareness is getting stronger. Then awareness will get a clear and precise hold on a particular object as it gets even stronger. However, it can still have the "persisting observer" as mentioned by BB. That layer still need to be penetrated to see the flow of the mind itself. Any of these experiences are valid for the practitioner at that particular stage though. - kel 44434 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:43pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 167- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (j) kelvin_lwin Hi Tep, > suggested by monks (e.g. Ven. Ledi Sayadaw) was labeled as > miccha vayama. So I thought Ven. Sariputta words would be more authoritative. > I thought such discussion is a dead battery. So why do you want to > jumpstart it? Simple answer is cause I'm still a puthujjana :) - kel 44435 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:08pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Nina, Sarah, Jon and everyone, J: I think it's true to say that there's no actual inconsistency > between the commentarial statements and the sutta texts on this point Well the commentarial position doesn’t seem to represent very well at all some of the most graphic descriptions of jhanic experience given in the suttas. In AN V.28 we read (also MN 77): “There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. *He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.* "Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder -- saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without -- would nevertheless not drip; even so, *the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.* This is the first development of the five-factored noble right concentration.â€? (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) This clearly indicates that the meditator is very much aware of the body in jhana, and that the primary object of the first jhana is piti and sukha arising from the absence of the five hindrances J: as regards anapanasati, it is often suggested that the Buddha > gave a step-by-step teaching on this form of samatha, but that is not > the case in my view. If you look carefully at the suttas usually relied > on for this assertion (Satipatthana S, Mindfulness of Breathing S), > you'll see that what he taught in those suttas was how insight can be > developed along with already developed anapanasati You seem to be basing your view on the notion that samatha/jhana is necessarily a separate practice from vipassana. I would suggest that the above mentioned sutta passage is a graphic description of the fifth step of Anapanasati Sutta (first injunction of second tetrad on vedana) , wherein one attains the first jhana. It seems to me to be a very long stretch to assert that anapanasati -- the most detailed description of meditation given in the suttas -- is not describing right samadhi, i.e. jhana, the eighth limb of the noble path. I’m sure your aware that the correct objects for developing jhana are the four anupassna’s of right sati. And (IMO) for this reason, the commentarial definition of jhana needlessly and unkillfully fractures the integral development of sila, samadhi, and panna. Another sutta description of jhana clearly supports Ajahn Thanissaro’s understanding that jhana is a state involving the coupling of samatha and vipassana (AN IX.36, appropriately titled Jhana Sutta): “'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self.â€? (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) This clearly indicates that the five aggregates are experienced in jhana, and that they are paramattha dhammas because they can be experienced as anicca, dukkha, and anatta. By any other name this is vipassana. This passage also states that jhana, as defined here, is essential for the ‘ending of the mental fermentations.’ That is, no panna and no lokuttara magga w/o this type of jhana (which obviously isn’t far removed from what commentarial trad. calls vipassana, but that’s another discussion which we could have at a later time: i.e. the unskillfulness of ‘dry insight’ w/o proper attention to mental unification). J: As far as I know, TB is alone among modern teachers on this particular point. Ajahn Chah also said that there can be no vipassana without jhana but please don’t ask me to track down where he said it. I think the more people delve into the Sutta Pitaka the more they may question the commentarial position on not only this issue, but a number of other commentarial interpretations as well (we can get to those at a later time also). J: it is really a matter of the commentaries going to a level of detail that is not found in the suttas But when the level of detail doesn’t jive with the level of detail in the suttas there’s a problem, and in such cases the Buddha states in Parinibbana Sutta (as you probably know) that the Sutta Pitaka and Vinaya Pitaka are the authority, and not any commentarial tradition. This is precisely why I have such great respect for the Pali Sutta Pitaka. It’s not an open system where anything goes and any interpretation or practice can be called ‘Dhamma’ or ‘Buddhism’ if enough people buy into it for long enough, and have an imaginary lineage of transmission going back to the Buddha himself (but I digress). It’s my opinion that the most ‘valid’ interpretation of the Sutta Pitaka is the one which shows the greatest homogeneous integrity and uniformity with the least number of anomalies possible. And quite frankly, I just don’t see the commentarial magga separation of jhana and vipassana, based solely on its unique definition of jhana, as providing an integral magga. It offers up a fragmented magga whereby all suttas describing jhana as part of the methodology of that sutta must be discarded as pragmatic practice manuals unless one can achieve the level of absorption described by the Vis. M. system. This I believe is not only unfortunate, it is also canonically unsubstantiated (AN IX.36, AN V.28, MN 77, etc.). J: it is not a correct characterisation of the Visuddhimagga to say that it describes a meditation practice in which one stares at an external object until the image of the object is imprinted in one's mind. No it’s not, it‘s just a brief sketch. But there’s still no evidence at all that the Visuddhimagga method was taught by the Buddha. (There are much more straightforward ways of interpreting the kasina practice.) And Ajahn Sona has written a thoughtful essay regarding the Vis. M. description of anapanasti as a jhanic practice in which he concludes that the Vis. M.’s description is based on a misreading of the Vimuttimagga and Patisambhidamagga. See full essay here: http://my.tbaytel.net/arfh/dhamma/nimitta.html J: I am not familiar with the term 'fixed samadhi', and would be >interested to know where it comes from. This is a translation of appana-samadhi. I don’t know precisely what this term means, but it seems that it’s a static state of concentration on a static object. Is this not correct? J: I would not say that what is described here is a commentarial > 'definition' of jhana. To come to the conclusion that jhana, as taught by the Buddha, necessitates the cessation of sensory form perception, the appearance of a counterpart sign, and a state of 'fixed samadhi,' one would have to accept one of two propositions: either (A) the Buddha considered these to be secret 'ear-whispered' instructions too esoteric for inclusion in the Sutta Pitaka, or (B) the Buddha was an inept and forgetful meditation instructor who always seemed to leave out these instructions when teaching. If you can't buy either of these two ridiculous ideas then the only remaining option is (C) these methods are the invention of a much later commentarial tradition that had taken a departure from the pragmatic experiential teachings recorded in the Sutta Pitaka. But to avoid any such erroneous interpretations of Dhamma, the Buddha, shortly before his death, told his followers to check any teachings they hear from even venerated elder monastics against what is stated in the Sutta Pitaka and Vinaya Pitaka, and if these teachings don't accord with these two Pitakas, then they aren't to be accepted as the authentic Dhamma. He says: Suppose a monk were to say: "In such and such a place there are many elders who are learned, bearers of the tradition, who know the Dhamma, the Discipline, the code of rules: I have heard and received this from those Bhikkhus, . . . this is the Dhamma, this is the Discipline, this is the Master's teaching", then, Bhikkhus, you should neither approve nor disapprove his words. Then, without approving or disapproving, his words and expressions should be carefully noted and compared with the Suttas and reviewed in the light of the Discipline. If they, on such comparison and review, are found not to conform to the Suttas and the Discipline, the conclusion must be: "Assuredly this is not the word of the Lord Buddha, it has been wrongly understood by this monk", and the matter is to be rejected. But where such comparison and review they are found to conform to the Suttas and the Discipline, the conclusion must be: "Assuredly this is the word of the Lord Buddha, it has been rightly understood by the monk." -- Mahaparinibbana Sutta (tr. Walshe) Notice that on his deathbed he didn't say anything about comparing any later teachings to the authority of the Abhidhamma Pitaka when trying to assess their conformity to the Dhamma. Why is this? Because they Abhidhamma Pitaka didn't yet exist at the time of the Buddha's Parinibbana (~483 BCE). In fact, (as I’m sure you’re well aware) it wasn't even added to the canon at the second council which transpired ~100 years after his death (~383 BCE), but was only added at the time of the third council (~250 BCE). This means that any notions of planes (bhumis) and therefore, any possible interpretation that jhana means the cessation of sensory form perception because it employs the use of form sphere phenomena (rupavacara-dhamma), wasn't even included in the canonical oral transmission before this timeâ€"a full 230 years after the Buddha's death. It's hard to imagine just how long 230 years really is, but suffice to say it's a very long period of time, during which any number of deviations from the Sutta Pitaka could occur. But even in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and Patisambhidamagga there's no mention whatsoever of counterpart signs (patibhaga- nimitta), or jhana as a state of fixed absorption (appana-samadhi). N: Yes, they are under the heading of ruupaavacara-kusala.m, Ch II. > ? 203: When, he may attain to the heavens of form, he cultivates the way > [thereto], aloof from sensuous desires, aloof from evil ideas, and so, by > the artifice of > water > fire > air > blue-black > yellow > red > white... > enters into and abides in the First jhana...> It does seem that the Abhidhamma as a whole, leans toward the commentarial interpretation of jhana with this entire development of avacara/bhumi, and no doubt they probably have explanations for the sutta descriptions of jhana mentioned above, that conforms with their understanding. S: There's a relevant controversy in the Kathavatthu under 'Hearing in > Jhana' N: The Points of Controversy debates about sound being a thorn for >jhana. It is explained that when in jhana one does not hear nor see. Yes it definitely does appear that the commentarial definition of jhana does go back as far as the third council at least. But for the above mentioned reasons, there’s no evidence that this was the Buddha’s jhana, and indeed in AN IX.36 and AN V.28/MN 77 we get quite a different description of jhana, which doesn’t involve cessation of sensory form perception. Of course, the proponents of the third council view would assert that their ‘right’ view was the basis for the holding of the third council in the first place, and they did so to reprimand/ expel heretical monastics. That’s their version of it anyway. As we know from the second council, there are two sides to every such story. N: (as I referred to) the example of Kalama Alara who did not hear the sound of five hundred Carts. This could be the sutta source for the commentarial interpretation of jhana, but again based on the above mentioned suttas, it doesn’t appear that such deep absorption is necessary, and obviously makes vipassana/panna/nana quite impossible. To conclude, Nina, Sarah and Jon (and anyone else reading this), I’m not trying to convince you that my position is ‘right,’ only attempting to stimulate dialogue, and examine the possibility that there may be more that one valid interpretation of the Sutta Pitaka. On the basis of such dialogue, it’s up to each individual for him/her self to make an informed decision as to the accuracy of any interpretation. As far as I’m concerned (and with all due respect), for many reasons (not just the definition of jhana) I have little faith in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, and much less in the Mahavihara commentarial tradition. And if this tradition is what defines Theravada, then I’m certainly not a Theravadin, although I strongly believe that the Kammatthana Thai (and Western) forest teachers represent the closest connection to the pragmatism and renunciation of original Dhamma that I have yet come across, and that they are truly Thera. And so my faith follows their example, and for that I make no apologies. Metta, Geoff 44436 From: Matthew Miller Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:24pm Subject: Re: Questions about nama and rupa bupleurum Andrew: > It seems to me we could be mindful of many processes going on in our > bodies at once. Why do people think this is not the case? I consider the "serial mind" model to be way too simplistic. In the past, I have argued that the mind does indeed process several things in parallel. Here are some of the objections I raised in previous posts (most of these objections were "overruled" since they involved references to biology and physics and not just introspection or Buddhist scripture -- God forbid we should actually look at human physiology when discussing things like hearing and seeing!): 1. The combination of sense data to form a 'bound' percept: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/40553 2. The durational nature of sound: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/40608 and in this post, I expanded that argument with a consideration of low frequencies: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/40652 3. I also offered the following thought experiment: > You're watching a movie and the sound is not perfectly synced > with the picture. The image of an explosion, > say, comes slightly later > (or earlier) than the sound. If the earsense and eyesense were not > being received in parallel, if there was flitting back and forth > from hearing to seeing, how could we detect if > they were out-of-sync? To these arguments, I would add more evidence from neuroscience. The "sense door" of vision, for example, is a complex, compound process. This is especially true in us primates, for whom sight is the most important sense. Besides the complex structure of the eye itself (rods, cones, fovea, etc), there are 31 different vision centers in the brain, each processing a different part of the input of the eye to form what we "see". The visual cortex itself includes the ventral stream which is associated with form recognition and object representation, and the dorsal stream which is associated with motion, representation of object locations, and control of the eyes and arms. Furthermore, individual neurons within the visual cortex are respoonsive to a subset of stimuli (e.g. vertical movement, or horizontal movement). If there is damage to any one of these various areas, we realize that the supposedly unitary experience of "eyesense" is actually compound, as selective parts of that experience deteriorate. In another post I described a phenomenon called "blindsight" in which a blind person is able to point to an object he cannot see. This demonstrates the complexity of vision and the error of relying solely on introspection to try and understand the senses: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43520 TG: > I think if you experiment with your own mind, you will find it > very hard, if not impossible, to pay attention to more than > one thing at once. I believe that the abhidhamma position on this is that the flitting of the mind from one sense door to the next is so rapid that we cannot perceive it by simple introspection. Am I wrong? Matthew 44437 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:40pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 167- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (j) buddhistmedi... Dear Kel - You gave an excellent answer : > Simple answer is cause I'm still a puthujjana :) > > - kel I always admire Ven. Sariputta, the great Arahant, as my second-to-the- Buddha-only teacher. And since you also have a great respect in him, let us discuss Anapanasati as expounded by this great Arahant in the Patisambhidamagga. Remember the last time we discussed Anapanasati, it wasn't finished. Of course, if you agree to do it, we'll go sloooowly. What do you say? Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > suggested by monks (e.g. Ven. Ledi Sayadaw) was labeled as > > miccha vayama. > > So I thought Ven. Sariputta words would be more authoritative. > > > I thought such discussion is a dead battery. So why do you want to > > jumpstart it? > > Simple answer is cause I'm still a puthujjana :) > > - kel 44438 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:50pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 167- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (j) kelvin_lwin Hi Tep, sure. Just start the thread. I have some free time today and this weekend. 44439 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:51pm Subject: Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep christine_fo... Hello Tep, and all, While you are waiting for The Great Discourse on Causation to arrive from the bookshop, you may be interested in taking a look at this teaching on the Mahanidana Sutta. http://www.meditation.asn.au/teachings.html It is given by Patrick Kearney, who first introduced me to Theravada Buddhism in Brisbane and later at the Blue Mountains Insight Meditation Centre near Sydney. http://www.meditation.asn.au/patrick.html metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > > T: Mahaanidaana Sutta is a profound discourse that touches on > > hard-to-penetrate topics such as paticca samuppada and anatta. > > If you have not discussed this sutta in details elsewhere, > > would you like to discuss it with me (in a series of messages)? > N: B.B. has translated it with its co: The Great Discourse on Causation, > BPS Sri Lanka, ISBN 955-24-0117-8.The best would be to order this > booklet. To read it and then some points could be lifted out. Heavy stuff! > T: I will get a copy of this book as you recommended and study it first. Although I already read the easy-to-find online version and the Thai version several times over a span of 10+ years, it might be better to discuss from the book you've recommended. 44440 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 3:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma matheesha333 Anguttara Nikaya IX.34 Nibbana Sutta (^) Unbinding Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant." When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?" "Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt. There are these five strands of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear...smells cognizable via the nose...tastes cognizable via the tongue...tactile sensations cognizable via the body -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Whatever pleasure or joy arises in dependence on these five strands of sensuality, that is sensual pleasure. "Now there is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality, that is an affliction for him. Just as pain arises as an affliction in a healthy person for his affliction, even so the attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality that beset the monk is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant. "Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with directed thought, that is an affliction for him... "Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the fading of rapture, remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, is physically sensitive to pleasure, and enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with rapture, that is an affliction for him... "Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with equanimity, that is an affliction for him... "Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, thinking, 'Infinite space,' enters & remains in the sphere of the infinitude of space. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with form, that is an affliction for him... "Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the sphere of the infinitude of space, thinking, 'Infinite consciousness,' enters & remains in the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the sphere of the infinitude of space, that is an affliction for him... "Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, thinking, 'There is nothing,' enters & remains in the sphere of nothingness. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, that is an affliction for him... "Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the sphere of nothingness, enters & remains in the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with the sphere of nothingness, that is an affliction for him. Now, the Blessed One has said that whatever is an affliction is stress. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how pleasant Unbinding is. "Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant." 44441 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:43pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' / Anapanasati Discussion buddhistmedi... Dear Kel and interested members- Thank you for the partnership! The new thread will continue from what we left out last time. Let me review the background materials tonight in order to start the thread tomorrow morning. Well begin may not be half done in this case, but it will get the ball rolling right. Anyone who is interested in Anapanasati, please join us in this discussion series. Thank you much! Sincerely, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Tep, sure. Just start the thread. I have some free time today and > this weekend. 44442 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:52pm Subject: Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep buddhistmedi... Hi Chris, Nina and other members - Thank you very much for the Web link to Patrick Kearney's writings on the Mahanidana Sutta. I sure will study it over this weekend. When I am ready to discuss this sutta with Nina, please join us. Kindest regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Tep, and all, > > While you are waiting for The Great Discourse on Causation to arrive > from the bookshop, you may be interested in taking a look at this > teaching on the Mahanidana Sutta. > http://www.meditation.asn.au/teachings.html > > It is given by Patrick Kearney, who first introduced me to Theravada > Buddhism in Brisbane and later at the Blue Mountains Insight > Meditation Centre near Sydney. > http://www.meditation.asn.au/patrick.html > > metta, > Chris > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > > > > T: Mahaanidaana Sutta is a profound discourse that touches on > > > hard-to-penetrate topics such as paticca samuppada and anatta. 44443 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, Vis. III, note 4. lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Thanks for sorting out lokuttara right thought (samma sankappa) as vitakka that is absorption or integration of associated states in the object. It took several times of reading it before I could see where I went wrong :-)) Larry 44444 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:04pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 167- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (j) kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi All, > > Doesn't this seem directed by sense of self and bound to be akusala? > Hi Kel, This is an ariyan's description of right endeavour. Therefore, we can know with certainty that no sense of a directing self is involved. Or are you suggesting a sense of self can be a conditioning factor for right endeavour? How could that be? Ken H > - kel > > > "And what, your reverences, is right endeavour? As to this, your > > reverences, a monk generates desire, endeavours, stirs up energy, > > exerts his mind and strives for the non-arising of evil unskilled > states > > that have not arisen… for the getting rid of evil unskilled states > that > > have arisen… for the arising of skilled states that have not arisen… > > for the maintenance, preservation, increase, maturity, development > > and completion of skilled states that have arisen. This, your > > reverences, is called right endeavour." 44445 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:56pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 168- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] When there is mindfulness of visible object which appears now, seeing which appears now, sound which appears now, hearing which appears now, or any other reality which appears now, right understanding of the eightfold Path is being developed and this is the most effective way to avoid akusala, to overcome it, to make kusala arise and to maintain kusala and bring it to perfection. At the moment of right mindfulness right effort performs its task of strengthening the kusala citta so that there is perseverance with the development of the eightfold Path. ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44446 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:42am Subject: Re: Questions about nama and rupa buddhatrue Hi Matthew, Matthew: I consider the "serial mind" model to be way too simplistic. James: It is hardly simplistic! It is the most complicated and quick process known to man. The Buddha said that he was hard pressed to come up with a good simile to describe how quickly the mind changes. It is unlike anything concrete in our experience. In my opinion, and not to be rude, you are looking at the process in an overly-simplistic manner. Matthew: In the past, I have argued that the mind does indeed process several things in parallel. James: No, the brain processes several things in parallel (the autonomic nervous system for example), but the mind doesn't process several things in parallel. Only one consciousness arises, persists, and perishes at a time. Buddhist meditation will help one to identify this process. Matthew: 3. I also offered the following thought experiment: > You're watching a movie and the sound is not perfectly synced > with the picture. The image of an explosion, > say, comes slightly later > (or earlier) than the sound. If the earsense and eyesense were not > being received in parallel, if there was flitting back and forth > from hearing to seeing, how could we detect if > they were out-of-sync? James: All of your objections are similar to this one, and this objection fails to take into account how quickly the mind changes. Matthew, the mind changes much quicker than that movie even! We are talking quicker than nano-seconds! In the example you give, eye consciousness, ear consciousness, and mind consciousness, will all arise and perish, one after the other, very, very quickly to determine that the sound is not in synch with the picture. Those who don't have as clear attention, and the mind consciousness tends to chase after fantasies or trivia, would not notice that the sound and picture are out of synch until much later. By your standard, if several people have a functioning pair of eyes and functioning ears, they should each notice the out-of-synch experience at the same time, but that won't be the case because there is a more complicated process involved. Now, to digress a bit (so I don't sound too pro-Abhidhamma ;-) the Abhidhamma speaks of cittas which last a certain duration, how so many cittas last per rupa experience, etc., I don't know if I buy all of that. The Buddha said that it was difficult to come up with a simile to describe how fast the mind changes, and then here is the Abhidhamma not only describing it but describing it in mathematical precision. I believe that the mind is even more complex than the Abhidhamma describes, but the model of the citta is close enough to not be argued too strenuously. Matthew: To these arguments, I would add more evidence from neuroscience. The "sense door" of vision, for example, is a complex, compound process. This is especially true in us primates, for whom sight is the most important sense. Besides the complex structure of the eye itself (rods, cones, fovea, etc), there are 31 different vision centers in the brain, each processing a different part of the input of the eye to form what we "see". James: Again, these are matter related to the brain, not to the mind. Matthew: I believe that the abhidhamma position on this is that the flitting of the mind from one sense door to the next is so rapid that we cannot perceive it by simple introspection. Am I wrong? James: Yes and no: it cannot be perceived by `simple introspection', but it can be perceived by meditative introspection- just as the Buddha did (though I don't believe the Buddha was responsible for the Abhidhamma. See U.P. under "Abhidhamma-Origins" and imagine some posts which I and others wrote about this subject which should be there! ;-). Metta, James 44447 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:21am Subject: Dhamma Thread (330) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa 22. asannasatta, 21. vehapphala 20. subhakinhnaa, 19. appamaanasubhaa, 18. parittasubhaa 17. aabhassara, 16. appamaanaabhaa, 15. parittaabhaa 14. mahaabrahmaa, 13, brahmapurohitaa, 12. brahmaparisajjaa 11. paranimmita vassavatii deva realm 10. nimmanarati deva realm 9. tusitaa deva realm 8. yaamaa deva realm 7. taavatimsaa deva realm 6. catumaharaajika deva realm 5. manussa bhumi or human realm This last bhumi is where we were born and now living. a)Who are we? b)Where did we come from before the rebirth in this current realm? c)Where are we going next in the next life or where are we going to be reborn after we die? Answer to a) We are no one. We are not a being. We are just nama and rupa. But we are viewed ourselves as manussa or human beings and this word 'human being' or 'manussa' is just a name. When we explore real Dhamma then we cannot find any being at all. This is the answer for 'Who are we?'. But conventionally we are are human beings and this will be exactly true in the conventioanl sense. Answer to b) We may have come from a) 4 apaaya bhumi or 4 woeful destinations b) human life and we are reborn again as a human being c) 6 deva realms d) from 11 rupa brahma realms leaving 5 ariya brahma bhumis e) 4 arupa brahma realms Answer to c) We may be going to be reborn in a) 4 apaaya bhumis or 4 woeful destinations b) to this realm of human being again c) to 6 deva realms d) to all of 16 rupa brahma realms including 5 ariya brahma bhumis e) to all 4 arupa brahma realms. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44448 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H jonoabb Hi Evan Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: >Considering that there are no suttas in which the Buddha instructs >bikkhus or lay people to practice the path of dry insight, why is there >so much emphasis on it these days and not so much on the jhanas? > > I think it's fair to say that any sutta that does not specifically refer to the attainment of the jhanas is a sutta that talks about the development of insight alone, and that would be the majority of suttas I'm sure. While the attainment of jhana was a lot more widespread in the Buddha's time than afterwards, it was nevertheless the exception rather than the rule, as far as I can gather. Actually, I don't read any sutta as being an 'instruction to practise' this way or that. However, when the Buddha was speaking to those who were capable of attaining jhanas as well as insight, he of course spoke in those terms, and he described in detail how jhana citta could be the basis for enlightenment, a greater achievement than enlightenment without jhana as basis. Jon 44449 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma jonoabb Hi Matthew (and Howard) Matthew Miller wrote: >Jon: > > >>>Merely paying attention to a 'neutral subject' does not fit with >>>any of the kinds of kusala I have seen described. >>> >>> >Howard: > > >>All that I can tell you is that it leads to calm and into the >>jhanas. I know this first-hand. The calm and peace is clearly >>wholesome. >> >> > >This is an interesting question. Is it possible to have "calm and >peace" which is somehow *not* kusala? > > What is obviously possible is for there to be what appears to be calm and peace, and therefore kusala, but for those mind-states to in fact be akusala. Both 'calm and peace' and subtle attachment seem calm and are accompanied by neutral feeling, yet they are poles apart in terms of the development of the path. Do we know by direct experience the difference between moments of kusala and moments of (subtle) akusala as they arise in our life? Are we conscious of the subtle attachment that accompanies all the ordinary moments of seeing etc. that we would tend to take as being morally neutral? >By contrast, is it possible to >have pain and suffering that *is* kusala? > >An analogy from the medical field (where I work) would be certain >treatments (such as, say, chemotherapy) that cause suffering in the >short-term, but are ultimately "wholesome" (e.g. curative). Is there >a something similar in the theory of kusala/akusala? > > As far as I know, there is nothing in the texts that suggests that there needs to be akusala in order for kusala to develop. This also applies to those passages that may on a first reading sound like aksuala, because they describe something that for us would inevitablely involve akusala (e.g., clenching of teeth). True calm and peace cannot be developed other than by the arising of kusala of that kind in the first place. Concentration, however, is not an intrinsically kusala mental factor. It takes its moral quality from the consciousness with which it arises. Samatha is developed by virtue of the object being properly contemplated, not by virtue of the concentration involved. The act of concentrating on a neutral object is not a condition for the arising of kusala, to my understanding of the texts. Jon 44450 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana / was: Vipassana / Ken H jonoabb Hi Evan (and also Chris -- thanks for the link to the BB article) Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: >Reading the Satipatthana sutta though (from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn22.html), the very first practice that is recommended by the Buddha is: > >[1] " There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. > > Note these opening words beginning "There is a case where ..". Here the Buddha is describing a very particular kind of person: a monk, and not just any monk but one whose life is dedicated to the development of samatha (with breath as object) and who is already well developed in samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana (note the reference to 'setting mindfulness to the fore'). So when you say 'practice recommended by the Buddha', I think we need to realise that what follows pertains to a very select group of followers only. It is not a general recommendation for all and sundry to take up anapanasati as a means of developing insight. > > >This surely would lead to the development of jhana. > Jhana is indeed the context here: jhana as a basis for insight. But again, this is for the most highly developed of disciples. We should ask oursleves to what extent this sutta relates to us in our present circumstances and stage of development. >Apart from this, the rest of the sutta seems to advocate practices that are pure insight practices and may not lead to jhana. I don't have the experience to comment too deeply on this, however, it would appear that a study of whether the Buddha taught a process of pure insight as a way to arahantship would have to rely heavily on this sutta. > > Yes, I agree, with the same reservation as above, namely that what is described in the sutta are not 'practices' in the sense of techniques to be adopted, but actual attainments. Note that the section on the first foundation ('A. Body', i.e., rupa), comprises 6 sections (or 11, as the various stages to No. 6 are traditionally counted separately), of which anapanasati is just one. It is also worth noting that in the whole sutta the section on anapanasati in the only one that is associated with a specific posture. Jon Sutta text: " Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. Just as a skilled turner or his apprentice, when making a long turn, discerns that he is making a long turn, or when making a short turn discerns that he is making a short turn; in the same way the monk, when breathing in long, discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short... He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication, and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. " In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. 44451 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:02am Subject: Anapanasati Discussion, Part II. buddhistmedi... Dear Kel, Sarah, Jon and interested members - On 1/13/05 my last message (#40958/ Re: Jhanas) of the Anapanasati discussion (Part I) with Kel concluded that we had not converged to one agreed-upon "solution" yet. But it was a good beginning. > T: I am glad that you are interested in Anapanasati > Discussion, Part II. Yes, Kel, we will continue discussing > and expand it to include Nina's Series on this subject too. > I am hopeful that we will converge to a "point soltion" soon. Many thanks again to Kel, Jon and Sarah for providing the information about the Anapanasati2 file, which contains Nina's series of writings from her long study of the Anapanasati Sutta and the Co. in The Visuddhimagga. Some highlights of this series are extracted and presented below as the relevant background information for our Part II discussion. The focus of this second discussion is the Venerable Sariputta Thera's Anapanasati discourse in the Patisambhidamagga. We will also revisit the impressive Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani and try to draw a final conclusion. I don't know when this discussion may end, but it will. Highlights from Anapanasati2 File ------------------------------------------------- # 26973, 27146 N: We read in the Co. that the monks were very interested in anapana sati. That is why the Buddha dealt with the other meditation subjects in short, but with mindfulness of breathing in detail. The Co now refers to the Visuddhimagga for details about this subject. N: The mindfulness associated with that contemplation of the body, which mindfulness is itself the establishment, is the establishment (upa.t.thaana or pa.t.thaana). The development, the increase, of that is the "development of the foundation (establishment) of mindfulness consisting in contemplation of the body" (Pm. 261) N: Vis. VII, 173: Herein, he trains: he strives, he endeavours in this way. Or else the restraint here in one such as this is training (sikkha) in the higher virtue, his consciousness is training in the higher consciousness, and his understanding is training in the higher understanding (Patisambidhamagga I, 184)." Tep's Note: Many of the Anapanasati comments in the Visuddhimagga were based on the Patisambhidamagga, e.g. Pm. 261 and Pm. I, 184 above. Therefore, by reviewing this Nina's series we are also previewing the Patisambhidamagga at the same time. # 27161 N: We say that breath is a body. Further, the twenty five classes of rupa, namely, the sense-base of visible object (ruupaayatana)....nutriment, are called the physical body, ruupakaaya (N:different from the mental body). Of these, breathing is a certain body because it is included in tangible object base (pho.t.tabbaayatana). # 27400 N: As regards the second tetrad (marked V-VIII), the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 226) comments: (V): He trains thus , that is, making happiness (piti, also translated as rapture) known, making it plain. Herein, the happiness is experienced in two ways: (a) with the object, and (b) with non-confusion. N: As regards , the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 227) explains: How is happiness experienced with the object? He attains the two jhanas in which happiness(piti) is present. At the time when he has actually entered upon them the happiness is experienced with the object owing to the obtaining of the jhåna, because of the experiencing of the object. N: After the jhanacitta has fallen away panna realizes the characteristic of piti as it is: only a kind of nama, which is impermanent and not self. #27439: N: The Vis. quotes from the Path of Discrimination with regard to the experience of happiness with non-confusion: N: The realization of the characteristic of impermanence can only occur when the stages of insight knowledge have been developed, beginning with tender insight, as I said before. Thus both jhana and insight have been developed here. As to VI amd VII, experiencing mental formation, citta sankhara, and tranquillizing mental formation: the Vis. VIII, 229, explains that mental formation pertains here to feeling and perception, sanna. The feeling is associated with perception (Vis. VIII, 230). The Vis. quotes here from the Path of Discrimination: # 27483 N: The Co then states: # 27561 N:The Visuddhimagga states: (IX): In the third tetrad the experiencing of the (manner of) consciousness must be understood to be through four jhanas. N: As regards the words in the third tetrad: (X): I shall breathe in...breathe out gladdening the (manner of) consciousness, the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 231) states that there is gladdening in two ways, namely through concentration and through insight. N: We read: How through concentration? He attains the two jhanas in which happiness (piti) is present. At the time when he has actually entered upon them he inspires the mind with gladness, instils gladness into it, by means of the happiness associated with the jhana. How through insight? After entering upon and emerging from one of the two jhanas accompanied by happiness he comprehends with insight that happiness associated with the jhana as liable to destruction and to fall, thus at the actual time of insight he inspires the mind with gladness, instils gladness into it by making the happiness associated with jhana the object. (XI): Concentrating (samaadaha.m) the (manner of) consciousness: evenly(samam) placing (adahanto) the mind, evenly putting it on its object by means of the first jhana and so on. Or alternatively when, having entered upon those jhanas and emerged from them, he comprehends with insight the consciousness associated with the jhana as liable to destruction and fall, then at the actual time of insight momentary unification of the mind arises through the penetration of the characteristics... # 27581 N: When he can have jhanacitta for many moments, there are no cittas of the sense sphere and no bhavangacittas in between. His concentration on the meditation subject is stable. The word evenly applies to jhana, when there is no disturbance by sense impressions. When he emerges from jhana and he can develop insight, there is momentray concentration with the citta that realizes the happiness of jhana as a dhamma arising and falling away. N: As regards the clause: (XII) I shall breathe in... breathe out liberating the (manner of) consciousness, the Visuddhimagga explains that this also must be understood as pertaining to jhana as well as to insight. In the first jhana one is liberated from the ³hindrances, although they are not eradicated, and in each subsequent stage of jhana one is liberated from the jhana-factors, specific cetasikas which are developed in order to eliminate the hindrances. The jhana-factors are subsequently abandoned when one is no longer dependent on them and one is able to attain a higher and more subtle stage of jhana. After emerging from jhana the jhanacitta is comprehended with insight. # 27840 N: The Visuddhimagga (VIII, 237) states about the fourth tetrad, this tetrad deals only with pure insight while the previous three deal with serenity and insight. As regards the words of the fourth tetrad, (XIII): I shall breathe in...breathe out contemplating impermanence, the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 234) states: .. Impermanence is the rise and fall and change in those same khandhas, or it is their non-existence after having been; the meaning is, it is the break-up of produced khandhas through their momentary dissolution since they do not remain in the same mode. Contemplation of impermanence is contemplation of materiality, etc., as ³impermanent in virtue of that impermanence... # 27863 N: As regards the clause: (XIV): I shall breathe in... breathe out contemplating fading away, the Visuddhimagga states that there are two kinds of fading away, namely: fading away as destruction which is the ³momentary dissolution of formations (conditioned realities) and absolute fading away which is nibbana. The text (Visuddhimagga VIII, 235) states: ... Contemplation of fading away is insight and it is the path, which occur as the seeing of these two. It is when he possesses this twofold contemplation that it can be understood of him. He trains thus, I shall breathe in... shall breathe out contemplating fading away. # 27934 N: The Co refers to higher stages of insight knowledge leading to more detachment from conditioned realities: fading away (viraaga~naa.na), cessation (nirodha ~naa.na), and relinquishment (pa.tinissagga). We read further on: : because one who proceeds by the method, etc., is one who looks on with complete equanimity after successively seeing with understanding not only the mental objects beginning with the hindrances, but also the knowledge of the abandoning of the mental objects stated under the heading of covetousness and grief. Therefore, it should be understood that # 28215 N: We read in the Co. to the Anapana Sati Sutta: The Co states that it is thus elsewhere (in other texts), but that in this sutta it is handed down that the mundane foundations of mindfulness perfect the mundane enlightenment factors, and that these perfect clear vision (vijja), deliverance (vimutti), fruition (phala) and nibbana, which are lokuttara. Because in this sutta ³clear vision and deliverance designate clear vision, fruition (phala) and nibbana.> At the end of the Series Nina concludes that Anapanasati bhavana is a vehicle for jhana masteries which support vipassana: N: "If jhana is not reached, and there are not the masteries (vasis) in jhana, such as attaining and emerging at any time, at any place, samatha, the development of calm, cannot be a foundation for vipassana". Respectfully, Tep =========== 44452 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma jonoabb Geoff Thanks for a very comprehensive and well articulated reply. You've covered every statement I made (and more ;-)). I will try to get back to you on most or all of the points discussed, but will do so in separate posts. For now I would just like to make a general comment or two in the light of how this thread has developed. I think the main point you have been pursuing to date (whether in jhana the object can be a sense-object, instead of a mental image as is generally believed*) is an interesting one, but I think there's a danger of losing sight of the overall main issues, such as: 1. Does it appear from the suttas, taking both the occasions described and the actual teachings given, that enlightenment was on occasion attained without the (mundane) jhanas having first been attained? 2. More importantly, I think, and regardless of one's view on Q.1, do the teachings contained in the suttas have anything to say about the development of the insight at this moment now, as we read this post or compose our reply, or is it said that unless certain other practice/development has been undertaken there's no chance of awareness or insight arising? I think our reading of individual suttas or passages must take account of questions like this; we should not let isolated passages or individual 'issues' drive our interpretation of the whole Tipitaka. On my reading of the texts, while kusala is always to be preferred to aksuala, one moment is as good as another when it comes to the development of awareness and insight. Jon *It is this point, rather than the broader one of the need for the jhanas in order to attain enlightenment, that I was suggesting was unique to TB, to my knowledge. sunnaloka wrote: >Hi Nina, Sarah, Jon and everyone, > >J: I think it's true to say that there's no actual inconsistency > > >>between the commentarial statements and the sutta texts on this >> >> >point > >Well the commentarial position doesn’t seem to represent very >well at >all some of the most graphic descriptions of jhanic experience given >in the suttas. In AN V.28 we read (also MN 77): > >“There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from >sensuality, >withdrawn from unskillful qualities -- enters and remains in the >first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied >by directed thought and evaluation. *He permeates and pervades, >suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born >from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by >rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.* > >"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath >powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again >and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder -- saturated, >moisture-laden, permeated within and without -- would nevertheless >not drip; even so, *the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very >body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is >nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born >from withdrawal.* This is the first development of the five-factored >noble right concentration.â€? (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) > >This clearly indicates that the meditator is very much aware of the >body in jhana, and that the primary object of the first jhana is piti >and sukha arising from the absence of the five hindrances > >... > > 44453 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:05am Subject: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Azita, Tep, Chris, Betty,(Phil, Vince) & All, (This series of ‘Musings’ are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) Many of us enjoy quiet times for reflection and practice. For example we may like to sit quietly, contemplate, read or listen to the Dhamma. We may feel that without specially putting aside some time, having some discipline or making a special effort of this kind, we’ll become lazy and forgetful of the teachings or the priorities in life. However, we were reminded that thinking in this way merely indicates a clinging to self and a clinging to results. Whether we are in front of the computer, at work, the theatre, in a quiet place or even seemingly ‘being busy doing nothing’, there can be awareness with right effort at such times. If there’s any attempt to make restrictions or impose limits, it will lead to trouble because of the idea of self. In order to really understand our accumulations, we have to know our present inclinations at any time, even whilst we’re thinking they should be different. When we were in India we discussed the example of the lady who had had a stroke and the point was to stress that even if we are immobilized or suffering from a serious illness, there can be awareness at these times. In other words, we should feel encouraged rather than discouraged that there are no limits to when sati (awareness) and panna (understanding) can arise. The Buddha taught for 45 years in order that we might really learn to understand ourselves, i.e to know the present namas and rupas (mental and physical phenomena). If there is no awareness, it’s impossible to understand them because ‘I’ is there all the time, trying do something in order to control what arises. The ‘I’ thinks it seems right when we set aside particular times or activities, but really we’re enslaved to lobha (attachment) which wishes for particular results. When we don’t mind at all what the present dhamma (reality) is or whether the present tendencies are kusala (wholesome) or akusala (unwholesome), there is no hindrance to awareness. So often, however, ‘I’ would like to be a good person and to be taken to be such a one by others. We forget that we’re still in the cycle of samsara, even if we become very good. Avijja (ignorance) is still there and it doesn’t see the attachment to self. It is this same attachment to self and results which may lead to ‘feeling low’ or ‘alone’ or discouraged. At such times we don’t wish to see the problem as being a ‘clinging to self’ and even less to see the ‘silabbataparamasa’ (adherence to rites and rituals) when there is lobha trying to do something different. We were reminded that: *“When we feel lonely, it must be atta (self). It’s atta, so it’s lonely” When there is the development of sati, everything becomes clearer including such disturbing moments. However, it takes courage to fight lobha with wisdom. There are bound to be difficulties, but there can be understanding rather than trying to do something with an idea of self which leads to more and more unpleasant feelings as a result of such wrong efforts. In this connection the 4 kinds of patipada (practice) were mentioned. We can read about them in DN, Sampasaadaniiya Sutta, (Walshe tr) and know that for most of us the first kind of practice is very familiar: *** “Also unsurpassed in the Blessed Lord’s way of teaching Dhamma in regard to the modes of progress, which are four: -painful progress with slow comprehension, [dukkhaa pa.tipadaa dandhaabhi~n~naa] -painful progress with quick comprehension [dukkhaa pa.tipadaa khippaabhi~n~naa] -pleasant progress with slow comprehension, [sukhaa pa.tipadaa dandhaabhi~n~naa] -pleasant progress with quick comprehension. [sukhaa pa.tipadaa khippaabhi~n~naa] “In the case of painful progress with slow comprehension, progress is considered poor on account of both painfulness and slowness. In the case of painful progress with quick comprehension, progress is considered poor on account of painfulness. In the case of pleasant progress with slow comprehension, progress is considered poor on account of slowness. In the case of pleasant progress with quick comprehension, progress is considered excellent on account of both pleasantness and quick comprehension. This is unsurpassed teaching in regard to the modes of progress....” ***** These same four kinds of progress are elaborated on in AN, bk of 4s, 162. The sutta is included in B.Bodhi’s ‘Numerical Discourses of the Buddha’. As most of us ae concerned with the first type, let me add the relevant additional details on it here: “And what is the mode of progress that is painful, with sluggish direct knowledge? Here, monks, someone is by nature strongly disposed to lust, hatred and delusion, and he often experiences pain and grief born of lust, hatred and delusion. These five faculties appear in him to be tender – the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom – and because of their tenderness he sluggishly attains the immediacy condition for the destruction of the taints. This is called the mode of progress that is painful, with sluggish direct knowledge.” ***** We can learn to have courage and joy when developing right understanding instead of feeling disheartened. We don’t need to think about the future, ‘my’ progress or how long the path is. Only the present moment exists and there is no self to change it in anyway. Slowly, the development of understanding and awareness can become our habitual tendency and what seemed so difficult and complicated becomes more evident with such progress, just as the Buddha taught. Metta, Sarah ======= 44454 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:11am Subject: re: Phil's letter from Japan sarahprocter... Letter from Phil ******************* Hi Sarah, and all Hello again A new computer with a giant monitor that is already making my feeble eyes hurt. It's been a very good period for Dhamma study, listening a lot to the tapes that Ken was kind enough to send me, in addition to reading. I'll have a lot of questions and comments based on the tapes, I imagine. > I'm glad you and Naomi have settled well into your new `high- class?E> neighbourhood and superior apartment. It's really a great area. Ironically, though we know live in Tokyo, there's great cycling and lots of pretty places to become attached to. Since my precious comments about passing through the posh department store, nothing has changed. I still pass through it. Sometimes there is desire re the fragrances and pretty sales assistants, sometimes there is a friendly feeling akin perhaps to metta, sometimes there is irritation about something or other, usually there is thinking thinking thinking about Dhamma. Still so much thinking. Of course this applies to everywhere I go. > Phil wrote: > > One question I'd like to ask. This is Nina, writing to Howard: "It only > > makes sense that I need to listen and read dhamma and on and on. With > > so > > much avijja and craving what would I find when I seek to practice? The > > feeling of urgency points to the present moment, and if there is no sati > > and panna what can be done? Nothing can accelerate the process of > > development except when sati and panna does arise.?E> > > > I think this is very important. When I see how gross my lobha is at > > times, > > should there not be samvega, should there not be an arousing of a sense > > of > > urgency? If there is, there is, but even when there is, when there is > > so > > much ignorance, what will be gained from urgency? > .... > S: I think it's important to stress that the sense of urgency has to be > with right understanding. For example, I was talking on the phone to a > friend whose parents died recently. She appreciates that we should make > the most of our lives while we can, but for many people this means we > should see the urgency to enjoy our lives. Ph: I was thinking about this today, actually. Enjoy our lives, or "make something" of our lives. I think we Westerners in particular have inherited the tendency to place too much emphasis on this one lifetime as something that we should be sure to wrap up fruitfully before dying. One lifetime as a package of accomplishments or failures. While I can only appreciate it intellectually, I've really come to appreciate the way of seeing life and death with every citta, with every moment. Otherwise there is such clinging to results. On the other hand, people will say that this lifetime we were born as humans in a time when the Buddha's teaching exists in the world, and that we must make good use of that rare opportunity to study Dhamma. There are so many conditions that must be fulfilled for us to be able to study Dhamma. As good students of the Dhamma, > we know better, but so easily we may think `we?Eor `self?Eshould urgently > act to get rid of our defilements. I'm not at all sure that this kind of > urgent mission by `self?Eis any better as it's likely to just lead to more > attachment to Self, as I see it. Well, I'd agree with that. I used to think that the risk of accumulating some wrong attachment to self was worth taking if the gross defilements could be removed through urgent practices, but I've seen things differently recently. A moment of really seeing things as they lie, and knowing it to be conditioned nama and rupa, even intellectually, is so refreshing, so un-burdening. I really like something Nina said in a post to someone to encourage him away from a view that all cittas could be seen or obseved, or soemthing. "Alas, not possible. But I should not say alas because it is a good thing. It is not us, it is nama and rupa" or words to that effect. I will quote the exact words someday. > .... > > I am now rereading the CMA, but am wondering where pariyatti, patipatti > > and pativedha fall in as dhammas? I won't be able to read the answer for > > now, but I hope the question will lead to a little fruitful discussion. > > It sounds like a very important point! :-) > ... > S: Panna (understanding) of different degrees, accompanied by other mental > factors of course. Pariyatti is right intellectual understanding with > concepts of dhammas as objects. For example, now we are talking about the > characteristic of viriya. If there is some right understanding it's > pariyatti, but not patipatti unless the characteristic appears. So > patipatti refers to moments of the direct understanding of namas and > rupas. Pativedha refers to higher insights into realities. (look up under > `pariyatti......?Eand also `samvegga...?Eand maybe `viriya?Ewhen you > return to U.P:-). Thanks. One thing I enjoyed on the tapes was talk about the three rounds of the 4 noble truths. It sounded similar to the 3 Ps. I'll be bringing it up. Time for dinner. Thanks for the letter, Sarah, and thanks again Ken for those tapes! Phil 44455 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:28am Subject: Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah and DSG Members - Sarah, I truly appreciate your kusala cetana/metta and sincerity that have driven you to write the message #44453. I know you think you have to pull 'someone' from a deep hole of miccha ditthi. There are several great points you have made, but there some controversial points as well. Let me categorize your points in two groups as shown below. Next, I'll explain why I agree or disagree with these points. This kind of disagreement arises mainly from our views which are fundamentally the same (because we study the same Buddha's Teachings), but our individual interpretations are not. Our interpretations can distort the reality we think we see. I. Sarah's Great Points -------------------------------- 1. In order to really understand our accumulations, we have to know our present inclinations at any time, even whilst we're thinking they should be different. 2.If there is no awareness (of mental and physical phenomena), it's impossible to understand them because `I' is there all the time, trying do something in order to control what arises. 3. When we don't mind at all what the present dhamma (reality) is or whether the present tendencies are kusala (wholesome) or akusala (unwholesome), there is no hindrance to awareness. 4. When there is the development of sati, everything becomes clearer including such disturbing moments. However, it takes courage to fight lobha with wisdom. 5. We don't need to think about the future, `my' progress or how long the path is. Only the present moment exists and there is no self to change it in anyway. II. Sarah's Controversial Points -------------------------------------------- 1. Whether we are in front of the computer, at work, the theatre, in a quiet place or even seemingly `being busy doing nothing', there can be awareness with right effort at such times. 2. If there's any attempt to make restrictions or impose limits, it will lead to trouble because of the idea of self. We should feel encouraged rather than discouraged that there are no limits to when sati (awareness) and panna (understanding) can arise. 3. The `I' thinks it seems right when we set aside particular times or activities, but really we're enslaved to lobha (attachment) which wishes for particular results. 4. It is this same attachment to self and results which may lead to `feeling low' or `alone' or discouraged. At such times we don't wish to see the problem as being a `clinging to self' and even less to see the `silabbataparamasa' (adherence to rites and rituals) when there is lobha trying to do something different. A Reminder : ------------------ Are the maintenance, preservation, increase of skilled states wrong because "because `I' is there all the time, trying do something in order to control what arises"? "And what, your reverences, is right endeavour? As to this, your reverences, a monk generates desire, endeavours, stirs up energy, exerts his mind and strives for the non-arising of evil unskilled states that have not arisen… for the getting rid of evil unskilled states that have arisen… for the arising of skilled states that have not arisen…for the maintenance, preservation, increase, maturity, development and completion of skilled states that have arisen. This, your reverences, is called right endeavour." [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy (viriya)) in Sarah's message # 44413.] Tep's Response to Sarah's Points -------------------------------------------------- I.1 We must be quite advanced in the practice to be able to be aware and know our mental states "at any time": this ability requires both mindfulness(sati) and thorough comprehension(sampajanna). You have to be an Ariya-puggala. I.2 Not only awareness but also knowing the "All" (sabba dhamma) the way they really are (yatabhutanana-dassana). Then we will realize that 'this is not mine, this is not I, this is not my atta'. [MN 149] I.3 True. When we can watch and know all dhammas as 'just dhammas' with no 'self' involved, then it is yathabhuta-nana-dassana. It is also samma-ditthi, according to DN 9 : "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma". But we have to be noble disciples first. I.4 With yathabhuta-nana-dassana you don't have to fight lobha -- because lobha has been abandoned. "However, knowing & seeing the eye as it actually is present, knowing & seeing forms... consciousness at the eye... contact at the eye as they actually are present, knowing & seeing whatever arises conditioned through contact at the eye -- experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither- pleasure-nor-pain -- as it actually is present, one is not infatuated with the eye... forms... consciousness at the eye... contact at the eye... whatever arises conditioned by contact at the eye and is experienced as pleasure, pain, or neither-pleasure-nor-pain." [MN 149] II.1 For a worldling (puthujjana) like you and I, when we are in a quiet place, busily doing nothing, our minds just wander. There is little awareness and little discernment, our minds simply follow objects (armamanas) through the sense doors. We can easily become sleepy! But if we are Ariya-puggalas, then we are able to overcome hindrances and what you were talking about is true. II.2 "Restrictions and imposed limits" are for the purpose of restraining the sensing faculties in order to perfect the indriya-samvara-sila. "Whenever the monk perceives a form with the eye, a sound with the ear, an odour with the nose, a taste with the tongue, an impression with the body, an object with the mind, he neither adheres to the appearance as a whole, nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things, greed and sorrow, would arise, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses" (MN 38). Also, please study the following sutta (AN X.60). Is this sutta wrong "because `I' is there all the time, trying do something in order to control what arises"? "There is the case where a monk does not tolerate an arisen thought of sensuality. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. He does not tolerate an arisen thought of ill-will. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. He does not tolerate an arisen thought of harmfulness. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. He does not tolerate arisen evil, unskillful mental qualities. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. This is called the perception of abandoning". II.3 Remember what the Buddha told his monks to sleep only 4 hours a night and dedcicate themselves to medition the rest of the night? "And how is the disciple of the noble ones devoted to wakefulness? There is the case where a monk during the day, sitting & pacing back & forth, cleanses his mind of any qualities that would hold the mind in check. During the first watch of the night [dusk to 10 p.m.], sitting & pacing back & forth, he cleanses his mind of any qualities that would hold the mind in check. During the second watch of the night [10 p.m. to 2 a.m.], reclining on his right side, he takes up the lion's posture, one foot placed on top of the other, mindful, alert, with his mind set on getting up [either as soon as he awakens or at a particular time]. During the last watch of the night [2 a.m. to dawn], sitting & pacing back & forth, he cleanses his mind of any qualities that would hold the mind in check. This is how the monk is devoted to wakefulness". [MN 53: Sekha-patipada Sutta, The Practice for One in Training ] II.4 You dont feel "low", or "discouraged, or sad, if you follow the four foundations of mindfulness practices of the Satipatthana Sutta. You would put aside greed and distress with reference to the world. You would achieve samma-ditthi. You would overcome hindrances! "And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness." Kind regards to all, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Nina, Azita, Tep, Chris, Betty,(Phil, Vince) & All, > > (This series of `Musings' are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with > A.Sujin) > 44456 From: "Matthew Miller" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:09am Subject: Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma bupleurum Jon: > What is obviously possible is for there to > be what appears to be calm > and peace, and therefore kusala, but for > those mind-states to in fact be > akusala... > > As far as I know, there is nothing in the > texts that suggests that there > needs to be akusala in order for kusala to develop. Of course, no one has suggested that there *needs* to be akusala in order for there to be kusalsa. The question is, if there exists apparent kusala which is in fact subtle akusala, does there also exist the reverse -- apparent akusala which is in fact kusala? I have wondered about this before, ever since I read Nina's works on abhidhamma, in which it seems that kusala is always described as being pleasant. Is there any painful or unpleasant kusala, that might be mistaken for akusala? Examples? Matthew 44457 From: "mnease" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results mlnease Hi Tep and Sarah, Hope you don't mind my butting in. First, Tep, I really appreciate your very civil and well-researched messages and citations. I also think the latter are perfectly to the point. Would you agree that in all your citations, the Buddha's instructions were given to bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight? If so, would you agree that it's a fair question as to whether or not instructions to professional, full-time yogis observing the paatimokkha are entirely pertinent to the practice of modern laypeople? Can you cite from the discourses examples of the Buddha instructing laypeople in the same way that he instructed bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight? If so, I think this would be very helpful to our discussion. Thanks in Adavance, mike 44458 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: calm nilovg Hi Howard, May I butt in? op 15-04-2005 18:12 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > At the NY Buddhist Vihara, Jon, the head monk once told me that I had > definitely entered jhana using a TM mantra, and he also said I could just as > well use "1,2,3,4; 4,3,2,1" repeatedly!!!! The point is that concentration > DOES lead to calm. N: I think that we should check our own cittas. What kind of calm is experienced, is it calm together with detachment? It is essential to find this out. Concentration arises with every citta and it focusses on the object. Thus, as you know already, it can be akusala. There may be a subtle attachment to being away from the world. I would like to elaborate more on kusala. Each kusala citta is accompanied by the cetasikas of calm, calm of mental body (the cetasikas) and calm of citta. Also by alobha, detachment. One does not think of oneself. A few examples taken from your own life. When you take an insect and put it outside to save its life, there is kusala citta with detachment, and also a degree of calm. When you visit a bereaved family there is kusala citta with detachment and calm. When you write kind letters to someone who is in trouble, there is kusala citta with detachment and calm. At such moments you just think of the other person, not of yourself. Such moments of calm are very short and the characteristic of calm is not very noticeable. Immdiately there are seeing and hearing, and clinging to visible object and sound, even though you do not notice it. That is why wise people of old developed samatha, and their aim was detachment from sense objects. The citta that begins to develop samatha should be right from the start: it should be kusala citta with alobha, adosa and amoha or paññaa. When kusala citta arises there is also confidence in the benefit of kusala, confidence in the Buddha's teaching. All this is necessary to begin in the right and proper way. You do not need paññaa to count 1,2,3,4 and just concentrate. What should paññaa know? It should know exactly when the citta is kusala citta with calm and detachment and when there is clinging. There is no need to think of the result that is jhana, if the practice is right it will lead to it. Counting 1,2,3,4, can this be with kusala citta? One has to check for oneself. If it happens without choosing an object, it can be an object of satipatthana, just for a moment. Thinking is a dhamma, it is nama, not self. When moving the lips in counting, there are also rupas that may appear: hardness, motion, pressure. These are just a few thoughts. Nina. 44459 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:sankhaara, sankhata. nilovg Dear Tep, op 15-04-2005 03:13 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...:> > N: Sa.nkhaara is derived from sa.nkharoti: combine, put together, > compose (Thai: prung teng). Sa.nkhaara dhammas, dhammas that > arise because of conditions. ... Sa.nkhaara dhamma refers to dhamma > which depends on other dhammas that condition its arising. > > T: The above definition sounds to me more like sa.nkhaata dhamma > than sa.nkhaara dhamma. > > Since sa.nkhaara means "combine or put together", why doesn't it > follow that any sa.nkhaara dhamma cooks up (prung teng), or puts > together ingredients to make other dhammas? For example, vitakka > and vicara are vaci-sa.nkhaara because they form spoken words. > Here spoken words are cooked up by vitakka and vicara, therefore > they are sa.nkhaara dhammas. > -------------- N: I see by your question that you think of kaaya-sa.nkhaara (bodily function of breathing), vacii-sa.nkhaara (verbal function) and citta-sa.nkhaara (mental function). This classification is another classification and here sankhaara is used in a different sense. See B. Dictionary, Ven. Nyanatiloka. I go on to your other Q: > N: Sa.nkhata is past passive participle of sa.nkharoti. It refers to the > dhammas which have arisen and then fall away. When the conditions > fall away that dhamma which has arisen because of these also must > fall away. ...Sa.nkhata dhamma refers to dhamma which, apart from > being conditioned, is dhamma that arises and falls away. > > T: The above definition of sa.nkhata dhamma is so broad that it is > confusing. Except Nibbana, all dhammas are sa.nkhata dhamma > because they arise and fall away. Thus all sa.nkhaara dhammas, > which depend on other dhammas that condition their arising, are also > sa.nkhata? N: Yes, that is correct. Both sa.nkhaara dhammas and sa.nkhata dhammas include all citta, cetasika and rupa, conditioned dhammas that arise and fall away. Thus the only difference in these terms is a slight nuance. All of them are conditioning and are conditioned. > > T: This is the most confusing point that I discussed above. Now, how > should I understand that vitakka and vicara that condition words and > the conditioned words themselves are both sa.nkhaara and > sa.nkhaata dhammas at the same time? N: See above about vacii-sankhaara. Words: what is it: citta, cetasika or rupa? No. Sound is rupa, thus, a sankhaara dhamma and sa.nkhata dhamma. It arises and falls away. Word is a concept. T: Again, since all dhammas, > except Nibbana, are subject to arising-and-passing-away > characteristic and because of conditions, does it follow that they > perform two roles at the same time : i.e. they arise because something > else conditions them to arise (thus, they are sa.nkhaata dhammas), > and because of their arising phenomena other dhammas may arise as > a consequence (hence they act as sa.nkhaara dhammas)? N: Not two roles at the same time, it need not be so complicated. Seeing arises because of several other dhammas, such as the cetasikas that are co-arising, and also because of past kamma, and also because of the rupa eyebase, and the rupa that is colour. And also because of the eye-door adverting-consciousness which it succeeds. Seeing also conditions the accompanying cetasikas, and it conditions thinking about what is seen later on. Both terms, sankhaara and sa.nkhata dhamma can be used for seeing, and the term sa.nkhata dhamma just reminds us that what has been conditioned, what has arisen because of conditions, must fall away. They refer to the same dhammas. Nibbaana is the asankhata dhaatu. Nina. 44460 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Geoff, You listen to modern commentators and you check whether you find it helpful, whether they make you better understand the teachings. Evenso you could do this with regard to the ancient commentators. You do not have to believe them but you could just check a few points. You do not even have to think: this is commentary, this is Abhidhamma. op 15-04-2005 23:08 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: > Well the commentarial position doesn't seem to represent very > well at all some of the most graphic descriptions of jhanic experience given > in the suttas. In AN V.28 we read (also MN 77): > “There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from > sensuality, ... . *He permeates and pervades, > suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born > from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by > rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.* N I can understand the confusion. When in jhana he does not feel the body, but the jhanacitta conditions such bodily phenomena. The Atthasalini explains the very subtle bodily pleasant feeling that is conditioned by the third jhana and helps us to understand the text. First of all the word body is also used for the mental body, the cetasikas. Text Co: Nina. 44461 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Matheesha, Jon, and everyone, My reading of AN IX.34 accords with what I maintain about jhana. The five sensory forms (i.e. strands of sensory form) are not the 'object' attention is focused on in jhana, rather a neutral sensory form (in the case of anapanasati the tactile sensation at the nostrils in steps 1 and 2, followed by full body tactual sensation as experienced from within, in steps 3 and 4) may be the object of samatha which gives rise to jhana, but the object of jhanic consciousness (jhana-citta) is rapture/happiness (piti) to begin with in the first jhana (step 5 of anapanasati), after which one intentionally focuses on/attends to pleasantness (sukha) which underlies piti (step 6 of anapanasati). The purpose for doing so is to continue to let go of 'coarser' mental factors by attending to more subtle mental factors, and thereby continue to settle and unify the mind, and let go of directed thought (vitakkha) and discursive thinking (vicara). In the first jhana the piti and sukha experienced are 'born from withdrawal' from the five hindrances and external forms by focusing within. The tactual sensation experienced is not dependent upon external contact, rather it is internal, and as such, is not what would commonly be classified as 'tactile sensation.' Nevertheless I see no statement in AN IX.34 which indicates that all experience of the five sensory forms must cease in the first jhana, rather all attention to perception of them must cease by remaining attentive to piti or sukha. The primary object of the second jhana (as I understand it), is more refined piti to begin with, followed by intentionally attending to more refined sukha. All sukha are mental phenomena, but here the focus is explicitly on mental sukha (step 7 of anapanasati) resulting from the settling of vitakka and vicara. This is experienced as pleasant 'expansiveness' and is quite subtle. The piti and sukha experienced in the second jhana are 'born of composure,' and as such, are the result of the settling of vitakka and vicara. The mind is already very unified at this stage. Eventually piti ceases altogether, and along with it 'mental' sukha. Here one enters the third jhana, the focus of which is 'physical' sukha (i.e. 'physically sensitive to pleasure' in the jhana formula) remaining in the absence of piti and mental sukha. It is experienced as a very deep and profound feeling of unshakable universal well-being. But of course this physical pleasantness is still a mental phenomenon in a technical sense, and as such, is a conditioning factor for one's ongoing mental unification (step 8 in anapanasati). In time even this deep feeling of well-being settles out and one enters the fourth jhana -- 'purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain,' in the jhana formula (steps 9 -- 12 in anapanasati if one so wishes). But even at this highly refined stage of mental unification there is no cessation of the experience of sensory form (although it's possible at this point, but as such, signals the attainment of 'perception of the sphere of infinite space'). This is clearly indicated in AN V.28: "And furthermore, the monk has his theme [usually TB's translation of nimitta] of reflection well in hand, well attended to, well-considered, well-tuned (well-penetrated) by means of discernment. "Just as if one person were to reflect on another, or a standing person were to reflect on a sitting person, or a sitting person were to reflect on a person lying down; even so, monks, the monk has his theme of reflection well in hand, well attended to, well-pondered, well-tuned (well-penetrated) by means of discernment. This is the fifth development of the five-factored noble right concentration." (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) The statement that the meditation theme (which could be any of the four anupasana's) is 'well attended to ... by means of discernment' (i.e. panna), shows that at this point (steps 13 to 16 of anapanasati), after the attainment of the fourth jhana, the paramattha dhammas of the five khandhas, are still experienced and can (and should) be taken up as the theme of contemplation, in order to discern the three characteristics -- while still 'in' jhana. Actually as AN IX.36 states, one can turn toward anupassana/vipassana at any point after attaining the first jhana (and while 'in' jhana), and as MN 111 states, all mental phenomena should be seen with discernment (panna) even while attending to the ?'samatha' aspect of jhana. In this way vipassana strengthens samatha and samatha strengthens vipassana, and both are factors of right samadhi which is jhana. J: Does it appear from the suttas, taking both the occasions described and the actual teachings given, that enlightenment was on occasion attained without the (mundane) jhanas having first been attained? If your question here is: Is enlightenment only attainable in jhana? And clearly (IMO) the answer is no. There are examples of disciples becoming arahants while listening to a discourse, and presumably not in jhana at that moment. But if your question is: Is enlightenment possible without jhana, that is, without the fully integrated bhavana of samatha and vipassana as taught in the Sutta Pitaka? And IMO the answer would be no, it's not. The stable ongoing maintenance of the lokuttara paths and fruitions, requires the full integration of sila, samadhi, and panna as detailed in the Vinaya Pitaka and Sutta Pitaka. J: More importantly, I think, and regardless of one's view on Q.1, do the teachings contained in the suttas have anything to say about the development of the insight at this moment now, as we read this post or compose our reply, or is it said that unless certain other practice/development has been undertaken there's no chance of awareness or insight arising? My whole point has been that vipassana/panna should be developed at all times -- including during the formal sitting practice of jhana -- and that proper jhana is impossible without it. This IMO is the clear mesage in the Sutta Pitaka. J: we should not let isolated passages or individual 'issues' drive our interpretation of the whole Tipitaka. If you think that this is my perspective your not understanding me at all. My whole 'thesis,' insofar as I have a 'thesis,' is based on the conservative principle of sutta interpretation that (A) remains as close to the meaning of what is stated as is possible given the larger picture of how the same thing is stated in other sutta contexts (and which is experientially verified to be productive and skillful); and (B) that sees the larger picture of the path by comparing many suttas and seeing how they all fit together so as to interpret terms like jhana based on the most universally applicable definition, which is verified by how the term is used in other contexts in the Sutta Pitaka, i.e. what images, etc, are employed, and what is described as the mental factors of jhana and the mental development undertaken 'in/during' jhana, and which thereby shows the fewest anomalies and inconsistencies of said definition, if indeed such anomalies exist. J: It is this point [if whether in jhana the object can be a sense- object, instead of a mental image as is generally believed], rather than the broader one of the need for the jhanas in order to attain enlightenment, that I was suggesting was unique to TB, to my knowledge. I can't speak for Ajahn Thanissaro of course, but I think I may have given the wrong impression of my own position regarding the object of jhana (by the awkward way I may have initiated this query) as I'm reading your understanding of what I've been saying. I hope the first part of this post (which was also stated in previous post) clarifies that it's my opinion that piti, sukha, etc, as detailed in jhana formula and described with graphic imagery in AN V.28, is the 'object' of jhana, and although I can't experientially confirm this regarding kasina jhana, I would propose that irregardless of counterpart image, piti and sukha would be main object to be experientially developed in kasina meditation also. And I would think (although I've never spoken with TB) that he would quite possibly say this also (regarding anapanasati that is). Metta, Geoff 44462 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:44am Subject: [dsg] Re:sankhaara, sankhata. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - It surprised me that there were two different defintions/meanings of sankhaara and sankhata dhammas. Let me do my homework - study more - and come back to chat a little bit with you. Boy, Nina. You must have the memory as big as an elephant's. Thank you for being my Dhamma friend. Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > op 15-04-2005 03:13 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...:> > > N: Sa.nkhaara is derived from sa.nkharoti: combine, put together, > > compose (Thai: prung teng). Sa.nkhaara dhammas, dhammas that > > arise because of conditions. ... Sa.nkhaara dhamma refers to dhamma > > which depends on other dhammas that condition its arising. > > > > T: The above definition sounds to me more like sa.nkhaata dhamma > > than sa.nkhaara dhamma. > > > > Since sa.nkhaara means "combine or put together", why doesn't it > > follow that any sa.nkhaara dhamma cooks up (prung teng), or puts > > together ingredients to make other dhammas? For example, vitakka > > and vicara are vaci-sa.nkhaara because they form spoken words. > > Here spoken words are cooked up by vitakka and vicara, therefore > > they are sa.nkhaara dhammas. > > -------------- > N: I see by your question that you think of kaaya-sa.nkhaara (bodily > function of breathing), vacii-sa.nkhaara (verbal function) and > citta-sa.nkhaara (mental function). This classification is another > classification and here sankhaara is used in a different sense. See B. > Dictionary, Ven. Nyanatiloka. > I go on to your other Q: > > N: Sa.nkhata is past passive participle of sa.nkharoti. It refers to the > > dhammas which have arisen and then fall away. When the conditions > > fall away that dhamma which has arisen because of these also must > > fall away. ...Sa.nkhata dhamma refers to dhamma which, apart from > > being conditioned, is dhamma that arises and falls away. > > > > T: The above definition of sa.nkhata dhamma is so broad that it is > > confusing. Except Nibbana, all dhammas are sa.nkhata dhamma > > because they arise and fall away. Thus all sa.nkhaara dhammas, > > which depend on other dhammas that condition their arising, are also > > sa.nkhata? > N: Yes, that is correct. Both sa.nkhaara dhammas and sa.nkhata dhammas > include all citta, cetasika and rupa, conditioned dhammas that arise and > fall away. Thus the only difference in these terms is a slight nuance. All > of them are conditioning and are conditioned. > > > T: This is the most confusing point that I discussed above. Now, how > > should I understand that vitakka and vicara that condition words and > > the conditioned words themselves are both sa.nkhaara and > > sa.nkhaata dhammas at the same time? > N: See above about vacii-sankhaara. > Words: what is it: citta, cetasika or rupa? No. Sound is rupa, thus, a > sankhaara dhamma and sa.nkhata dhamma. It arises and falls away. Word is a > concept. > T: Again, since all dhammas, > > except Nibbana, are subject to arising-and-passing-away > > characteristic and because of conditions, does it follow that they > > perform two roles at the same time : i.e. they arise because something > > else conditions them to arise (thus, they are sa.nkhaata dhammas), > > and because of their arising phenomena other dhammas may arise as > > a consequence (hence they act as sa.nkhaara dhammas)? > N: Not two roles at the same time, it need not be so complicated. Seeing > arises because of several other dhammas, such as the cetasikas that are > co-arising, and also because of past kamma, and also because of the rupa > eyebase, and the rupa that is colour. And also because of the eye- door > adverting-consciousness which it succeeds. Seeing also conditions the > accompanying cetasikas, and it conditions thinking about what is seen later > on. > Both terms, sankhaara and sa.nkhata dhamma can be used for seeing, and the > term sa.nkhata dhamma just reminds us that what has been conditioned, what > has arisen because of conditions, must fall away. They refer to the same > dhammas. > Nibbaana is the asankhata dhaatu. > Nina. 44463 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep nilovg Hi Tep, my input cannot be very great. The Vis. Tiika takes up a lot of time. So, I hope others will help with this study. As to anapanasati, the post is so long and I feel sorry for the readers. Would very, very short posts (as Sarah does for Cetasikas) not be more effective? Nina. op 16-04-2005 01:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > Thank you very much for the Web link to Patrick Kearney's writings on > the Mahanidana Sutta. I sure will study it over this weekend. > > When I am ready to discuss this sutta with Nina, please join us. 44464 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 11:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) kusala and akusala. nilovg Hi Matthew, Kusala citta can be accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. Not by unpleasant feeling. Unpleasant feeling accompanies only citta rooted in aversion, thus only akusala citta. Painful kusala? Well, helping can be very tiring, but we still do it. Then there are kusala cittas alternated with akusala cittas. But we can be sure that akusala cittas arise more often than kusala cittas. It is hard to precisely know the different moments. Nina. op 16-04-2005 20:09 schreef Matthew Miller op bupleurum@...: > I have wondered about this before, ever since I read Nina's works on > abhidhamma, in which it seems that kusala is always described as being > pleasant. Is there any painful or unpleasant kusala, that might be > mistaken for akusala? Examples? 44465 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: calm upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/16/05 2:21:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > May I butt in? > op 15-04-2005 18:12 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > > >At the NY Buddhist Vihara, Jon, the head monk once told me that I had > >definitely entered jhana using a TM mantra, and he also said I could just > as > >well use "1,2,3,4; 4,3,2,1" repeatedly!!!! The point is that concentration > >DOES lead to calm. > N: I think that we should check our own cittas. What kind of calm is > experienced, is it calm together with detachment? It is essential to find > this out. > Concentration arises with every citta and it focusses on the object. Thus, > as you know already, it can be akusala. There may be a subtle attachment to > being away from the world. > --------------------------------------- Howard: I dodn't expect my mindstates to be free of attachment for a long, long time, Nina! --------------------------------------- > I would like to elaborate more on kusala. Each kusala citta is accompanied > by the cetasikas of calm, calm of mental body (the cetasikas) and calm of > citta. > --------------------------------------- Howard: True calm doesn't come until the 3rd or 4th jhana. Even the 2nd jhana is filled with bliss! ------------------------------------- Also by alobha, detachment. One does not think of oneself. A few> > examples taken from your own life. When you take an insect and put it > outside to save its life, there is kusala citta with detachment, and also a > degree of calm. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed. ------------------------------------ When you visit a bereaved family there is kusala citta with> > detachment and calm. When you write kind letters to someone who is in > trouble, there is kusala citta with detachment and calm. At such moments you > just think of the other person, not of yourself. > Such moments of calm are very short and the characteristic of calm is not > very noticeable. Immdiately there are seeing and hearing, and clinging to > visible object and sound, even though you do not notice it. That is why wise > people of old developed samatha, and their aim was detachment from sense > objects. The citta that begins to develop samatha should be right from the > start: it should be kusala citta with alobha, adosa and amoha or paññaa. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Nina we cannot wait for conditions to be perfect. Constant practice of sila as best we can is sufficient preparation. ------------------------------------- > When kusala citta arises there is also confidence in the benefit of kusala, > confidence in the Buddha's teaching. All this is necessary to begin in the > right and proper way. > You do not need paññaa to count 1,2,3,4 and just concentrate. What should > paññaa know? It should know exactly when the citta is kusala citta with calm > and detachment and when there is clinging. There is no need to think of the > result that is jhana, if the practice is right it will lead to it. > Counting 1,2,3,4, can this be with kusala citta? One has to check for > oneself. If it happens without choosing an object, it can be an object of > satipatthana, just for a moment. Thinking is a dhamma, it is nama, not self. > When moving the lips in counting, there are also rupas that may appear: > hardness, motion, pressure. > These are just a few thoughts. > Nina. > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44466 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 0:48pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Nina, N: I can understand the confusion. When in jhana he does not feel the body, but the jhanacitta conditions such bodily phenomena. The Atthasalini explains the very subtle bodily pleasant feeling that is conditioned by the third jhana and helps us to understand the text. The fact that there is still a very subtle bodily pleasant feeling means that one still feels/experiences the body in the third jhana (the explanation of mental and physical sukha in Psm. Commentary on Breathing gives details regarding distinction -- which I propose are addressing jhana resulting from anapanasati). Not to ‘toot my own horn,’ but I’m basing everything that I’m saying on my own experience and on the experience of other dedicated long term meditators whom I know personally, and comparing all said experience to what is stated in the suttas. I’ve been at this for a fairly long time, during which I’ve done extensive individual retreat and also lived in residence at a Buddhist monastery for almost 2 yrs. where the daily regimen was 4 1/2 hrs of mandatory group sitting daily, with 8 1/2 hours mandatory group sitting every Sunday, and 6 1/2 hours mandatory group sitting daily for 2 months of annual retreat. I’ve experienced the quasi-paranormal mental phenomena of colored light and intense feelings of rapture/bliss that are truly otherworldly. But none of that represents a sign of attainment of jhana. It’s all just adventitious conditioned mental phenomena, which can definitely signal that one is close to formless meditation (which IMO is what Ajahn Brahmavamso ?sp? calls jhana), but in no way signals the arrival of stable mental unification that the suttas call jhana. Such phenomena can appear every sitting for months or even years -- and then one day they can simply be gone -- that’s how conditioned and therefore unstable all such quasi- paranormal experiences are. But jhana, as the suttas describe it, and as I recognize in my own experience, and as others recognize in their own experience, is a fairly reliable and repeatable experience given the appropriate conditions of environment, productive sila, and ongoing panna, etc., are present. And it has been my experience and the experience of others I know, that jhana in no way necessitates the cessation of sensory form experience -- awareness of one’s environment is definitely reduced to what one’s present object is -- but one is in no way totally oblivious to what’s going on. A good analogy which everyone can identify with is that of being so engrossed in a book that someone could enter or exit the room, or even talk to you, and you have no awareness that they’ve done so. But if someone were to hit you over the head, that would certainly get your attention. When the suttas and contemporary teachers describe their own experiences, or that of others, who are in a state of total oblivion (Ajahn Brahmavamso tells of one meditator who was presumed to be dead by people around him and taken to the hospital morgue -- only to come out of absorption and wonder how he got there ... etc..) such cases are IMO experiences of formless meditation and not form jhana, at least as presented in the Sutta Pitaka. Yes, there’s a place for ancient commentary, I’m very much fond of the Commentary on Breathing in the Patisambhidamagga for example, but as I don’t very often practice kasina meditation (I have in the past, but never to the point of counterpart sign), the use of that particular methodology as a paradigm for jhana doesn’t relate to my own experience or the way jhana is commonly described in the suttas. It therefore represents an anomaly, and not the main methodology for attaining jhana, which I maintain, is anapanasati. Maybe it’s not appropriate to discuss jhana based on one’s own expereince, but listening to others do so has certainly helped my practice, and I discuss these matters not to puff myself up, but to stimulate discussion of how one can experientially relate to what is stated in Sutta Pitaka, and how one can also measure if the commentarial descriptions are realistic, or theoretical and quite possibly elitist -- based on absolutist idealism and not on pragmatic every day realism. Metta, Geoff 44467 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 0:53pm Subject: Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results buddhistmedi... Dear Mike, Sarah and other DSG members - Thank you Mike for the encouragement. You have a valid point that is not easy to argue with. Mike: (1) Would you agree that in all your citations, the Buddha's instructions were given to bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight? (2) If so, would you agree that it's a fair question as to whether or not instructions to professional, full-time yogis observing the paatimokkha are entirely pertinent to the practice of modern laypeople? (3) Can you cite from the discourses examples of the Buddha instructing laypeople in the same way that he instructed bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight? If so, I think this would be very helpful to our discussion. Tep: (1) It is true that two of my citations, MN 53 and AN X.60, "were given to bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight". But the other citations, i.e. MN 149 and DN 22 are not depending on absorption (jhana) as the requisite. Indeed, there is a sutta that leaves the Path opens for sukka-vipassakas, it is Anguttara Nikaya 4.170. In this sutta, Venerable Ananda said that monks and nuns who informed him that they had attained arahantship all declared that they did so by one of the four categories, i.e. there are only these four ways to arahantship: A. Samatha followed by vipassana: - after which the path is born in him/her - B. Vipassana followed by samatha- after which the path is born in him/her-: C. Samatha and vipassana together, simultaneously - after which the path is born in him/her, and D. The mind stands fixed internally until it becomes one-pointed - after which the path is born in him/her. "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed." Tep's Note: D. is the case of citta-based practitioners. Another more general sutta, SN XXXVI.1, doesn't specifically mention paatimokha sila or jhana. This is for people who are vedana-based : "A disciple of the Buddha, mindful, clearly comprehending, with his mind collected, he knows the feelings and their origin , knows whereby they cease, and knows the path that to the ending of feelings lead. And when the end of feelings he has reached,such a monk, his thirsting quenched, attains Nibbana." Tep's Notes: Knowing in 5 ways are 1. by way of the Truth of Suffering; 2. by way of the Truth of the Origin of Suffering; 3. by way of the Truth of Cessation; 4. by way of the Truth of the Path ; 5. through the full extinction of the defilements (kilesa-parinibbanaya). (2.) You have a solid reasoning here - the world of paatimokha yogis who are fully dedicated to Nibbana is totally opposite to that of the "modern laypeople". But if you really want to get the hell out of this world as quickly as possible, in my opinion the yogi's way is the only way. (3) There are a few suttas instructing laypeople how to become Sotapanna and Anagami, Mike. By the way, the word "bhikkhus" means both laypeople and monks who are 'disciples of the Noble ones'. This is what I understand. "Then Anathapindika the householder went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was siting there, the Blessed One said to him: When, for a disciple of the noble ones, five forms of fear & animosity are stilled; when he is endowed with the four factors of stream entry; and when, through discernment, he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out the noble method, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!' " Anguttara Nikaya X.92, Vera Sutta: Animosity http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an10-092.html ----------------------------- "Then Anathapindika the householder, surrounded by about 500 lay followers, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. So the Blessed One said to Ven. Sariputta: "Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!' " AN V.179 Gihi Sutta, The Householder ------------------------------- Mike, I hope the above research may encourage you to have more faith in practicing according to the Teachings to become a Sotapanna in this very life. Warm regards, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > Hi Tep and Sarah, > > Hope you don't mind my butting in. First, Tep, I really appreciate your 44468 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - Your input has unique qualities that are the characteristics of professional authors, and I always value it highly. You're right that my Anapanasati review post is too long. I hope Sarah will tell me about her condensing techniques for extracting relevant information from several posts, each of which is already compact. The Mahanidana Sutta project will soon keep me busy. Respectfully, Tep ====== -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > my input cannot be very great. The Vis. Tiika takes up a lot of time. So, I > hope others will help with this study. > As to anapanasati, the post is so long and I feel sorry for the readers. > Would very, very short posts (as Sarah does for Cetasikas) not be more > effective? > Nina. > op 16-04-2005 01:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > Thank you very much for the Web link to Patrick Kearney's writings on > > the Mahanidana Sutta. I sure will study it over this weekend. > > > > When I am ready to discuss this sutta with Nina, please join us. 44469 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:51pm Subject: Re: Anapanasati Discussion, Part II. kelvin_lwin Hi Tep, Nice summary and doesn't appear to have anything to add :) - kel 44470 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 2:47pm Subject: Reality and the Mind robmoult Hi All, As I walk by the florist, a rose in the window catches my eye. What is the reality of this moment? For a very small fraction of a second, a visual image (ruparammana, visible object) impinges upon my eye (cakkhu-pasadarupa, the sensitive part of the eye). The visual image is like a photograph of the scene in front of me. At this moment, there is no judgment and no analysis; there is only the bare process of seeing (cakkhu- vinnana, eye-consciousness, part of the sensing process). Note: One must be careful not to associate the term "mind" with a controlling self; the "mind" is a series of instantaneous mental states, each of which arises naturally. Each mental state happens because conditions support its arising. The visual image is passed to the mind (tadanuvattika manodvaravithi, conformational mental process which immediately follows the sensing process). The mind links this visual image with the most recent past visual image (samudayagahika, a set of mental processes which grasp the visual image as a whole). The mind then recognizes colours (vannasallakkhana, a set of mental processes which recognize the colour), delineates a thing from the visual image (vatthugahika, a set of mental processes which grasp the thing in the visual image) and then recognizes the thing (vatthusallakkhana, a set of mental processes which recognize the thing). The mind then grasps the name for the thing (namagahika, a set of mental processes which grasp the name). The mind of an English-speaking person would grasp the name of "rose" at this moment. Following this, the mind links the name with past experiences (namasallakkhana, a set of mental processes which recognize the name). This is thinking about the thing. From this point onwards, the mind is dealing with a mixture of the present visual image and past associations with things having the same name. Modern science provides interesting insights into how the mind works. There was a case of a man who suffered brain damage in a car accident. After the accident, the man was able to recognize his mother but he insisted that she was an imposter. Doctors discovered that the portion of the brain that recognized objects (naming) was working properly, but the link between the "naming" part of the brain and the part of the brain that stored the emotions associated with the name (thinking about) had been damaged. So when the patient recognized his mother but did not have the expected emotions associated with this person, the patient concluded that this must be an imposter. After the mind has "named" and "thought about" the thing, a sense of "I" is inserted into the situation ("I like roses") and a complex process of mental proliferation (papanca, mental proliferation which obscures the nature of reality as layers of clouds obscure the features of the moon) follows... "My wife likes roses"... "I should buy a rose for my wife"... "I imagine myself giving the rose to my wife"... "I imagine the smile on my wife's face"... In a fraction of a second we go from a visual image (something that is real) to imagining the smile on my wife's face (something that is not real). The visual image was real. However, once the mind started working on it, this reality got distorted. As explained in the first Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya (Mulapariyaya Sutta, the Root of Existence), we are all subject to this kind of distortion and it is not until we attain the first stage of sainthood (Sotapanna) that we uproot this tendency. The Mulapariyaya Sutta uses the term "uninstructed worldlings" for those who have not yet attained the first stage of sainthood. The Honeyball Sutta (MN 18) explains, "What one names, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates. With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions tinged by mentally proliferation beset a man with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye." In other words, naming, thinking about and mental proliferation are subjective activities and subject to distortion. Mental proliferation adds to what is seen; it then feeds upon itself, covering over the true nature of the reality, layer by layer. The Vipallasa Sutta (AN IV.49) lists three ways in which the mind distorts reality; distortion of perception, distortion of thinking and distortion of opinions. These three types of distortion build upon each other. For example, in the dark, a man spontaneously perceives a coiled up rope as a snake (distortion of perception). The man then assumes that what he saw was a snake (distortion of thought). Finally, he is convinced that what he has seen is a snake (distortion of opinion). A distortion of opinion becomes a latent tendency, capable of distorting subsequent experiences. So how does this theoretical description help us in daily life? If your objective is to attain sainthood, then you need to develop three types of full understanding; understanding of the known (nataparinna, the ability to differentiate between the real visible image and the concepts which follow), examination (tiranaparinna, the ability to see the three characteristics of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and non-self) and abandoning (pahanaparinna, attachment to mental objects is eliminated). This kind of full understanding cannot be learned from books, it must be rooted in direct experience. The theoretical description above is like a map to guide us as we travel the path ourselves. The theoretical description above is the recipe; it is not the food. Even if your objective is not as lofty as attaining sainthood but merely to make this round of existence more pleasant, reflecting on this theoretical description can also have benefits. As we consider this theoretical description, we can conclude that more than 99% of what we take as "reality" was added by our own mind. Our mind flows according to our habits and our latent tendencies. Understanding this theoretical description can help us to weaken our attachment to our own point of view and help us to recognize the validity of another, perhaps even conflicting, perspective. The mind cannot be controlled (there is no "self" to control the mind), but the mind can be trained. This theoretical description lays bare the nature of the mind and thereby supports efforts to train the mind. Metta, Rob M :-) 44471 From: "mnease" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results mlnease Hi Again Tep, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tep Sastri" To: Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 12:53 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results I'm impressed as always by your scholarship and courtesy-- > Thank you Mike for the encouragement. You have a valid point that is > not easy to argue with. You've done well, I think. Hope it's OK if I snip my previous comments and reply to your responses in line: > Tep: (1) It is true that two of my citations, MN 53 and AN X.60, "were > given to bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight". But the > other citations, i.e. MN 149 and DN 22 are not depending on > absorption (jhana) as the requisite. Thanks for the correction. It's true that the Mahaa-salayatanika Sutta (MN 149) doesn't state explicitly that the bhikkhus addressed there were jhaana practioners, and that tranquillity and insight are said to arise in tandem in the present examples. I would speculate that, in this context, tranquility is synonymous with absorption, but of course that's just my speculation. By my reading of the discourses, the bhikkhus and bhikkhunis of the Buddha's day spent a great deal of their time in what might be translated as 'formal practice' or 'meditation', seated, walking and so on. Anyway the main point of the discourse seems to be the importance of direct knowledge, i.e. insight. As for the Mahaa-satipa.t.thaana Sutta (DN 22) the description of the meditation is very similar to other discriptions of what I take to be jhaana cultivation: "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long." I've been told that this is an example of insight and tranquility being cultivated together. I'm not sure that the difference between the two is always cut and dried, but the object here--breathing in long etc.--seems to me to be a concept, so this also sounds like samatha or jhaana bhaavanaa to me. Whether either or both, though, in this description it's clearly being done by a bhikkhu. > Indeed, there is a sutta that leaves > the Path opens for sukka-vipassakas, it is Anguttara Nikaya 4.170. In > this sutta, Venerable Ananda said that monks and nuns who informed > him that they had attained arahantship all declared that they did so by > one of the four categories, i.e. there are only these four ways to > arahantship: > > A. Samatha followed by vipassana: - after which the path is born in > him/her - > B. Vipassana followed by samatha- after which the path is born in > him/her-: > C. Samatha and vipassana together, simultaneously - after which the > path is born in him/her, and > D. The mind stands fixed internally until it becomes one-pointed - after > which the path is born in him/her. "Then there is the case where a > monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the > corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his > mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & > concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his > fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed." Yes, in the Yuganaddha (congruous; harmonious; connected to a yoke) Sutta (Anguttara Nikaya 4.170) the two seem plainly to be 'in tandem'. That Aananda here referred to bhikkhus and bhikkhunis specifically is beside the point of the discourse, I think, which is the development of tranquility and insight together. I have no problem with this, by the way, for laypeople. > Tep's Note: D. is the case of citta-based practitioners. > > Another more general sutta, SN XXXVI.1, doesn't specifically mention > paatimokha sila or jhana. This is for people who are vedana-based : > > "A disciple of the Buddha, mindful, clearly comprehending, with his > mind collected, he knows the feelings and their origin , knows whereby > they cease, and knows the path that to the ending of feelings lead. And > when the end of feelings he has reached,such a monk, his thirsting > quenched, attains Nibbana." > > Tep's Notes: Knowing in 5 ways are 1. by way of the Truth of Suffering; > 2. by way of the Truth of the Origin of Suffering; 3. by way of the Truth of > Cessation; 4. by way of the Truth of the Path ; 5. through the full > extinction of the defilements (kilesa-parinibbanaya). > > (2.) You have a solid reasoning here - the world of paatimokha yogis > who are fully dedicated to Nibbana is totally opposite to that of > the "modern laypeople". But if you really want to get the hell out of this > world as quickly as possible, in my opinion the yogi's way is the only > way. Well, that's the issue, isn't it? I have tried the yogi's way unsuccessfully and am among those who think that this may well no longer be an option--even for fully ordained people. The fact that many laypeople in the texts entered the various paths without being (at least professional) yogis does suggest to me that the yogi's way is not the only way. And I am obviously skeptical of amateur yoga for laypeople as a way out of sa.msaara. So I think we simply have a difference of opinion here, though I certainly respect yours and am well aware that my own may be wrong. > (3) There are a few suttas instructing laypeople how to become > Sotapanna and Anagami, Mike. Thanks, Tep, I have read them. I don't have them indexed though--could you cite them for us? I think it would be especially valuable if we can find instances of the Buddha advising laypeople to go to the roots of trees or attend retreats and so on. > By the way, the word "bhikkhus" > means both laypeople and monks who are 'disciples of the Noble > ones'. This is what I understand. Yes, this is well born out by the texts I've read, including the abhidhamma. The context is important, though; in the citations we've been discussing I think the Buddha was actually referring to ordained bhikkhus and bhikkhunis. > "Then Anathapindika the householder went to the Blessed One and, > on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As > he was siting there, the Blessed One said to him: When, for a disciple > of the noble ones, five forms of fear & animosity are stilled; when he is > endowed with the four factors of stream entry; and when, through > discernment, he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out the noble > method, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; > animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; > states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a > stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, > headed for self-awakening!' " > > Anguttara Nikaya X.92, Vera Sutta: Animosity > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an10-092.html > > ----------------------------- > > "Then Anathapindika the householder, surrounded by about 500 lay > followers, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down > to him, sat to one side. So the Blessed One said to Ven. > Sariputta: "Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, > that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he > obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental > abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about > himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the > hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad > bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again > destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!' " > > AN V.179 Gihi Sutta, The Householder Thanks, I've always found Anathapindika a most inspiring figure, especially for a layman. I would be delighted to think that I'm in his class of lay-disciple but I think that would be very rarified company indeed. > Mike, I hope the above research may encourage you to have more > faith in practicing according to the Teachings to become a Sotapanna > in this very life. Tep, I thank you for your excellent research and for a challenging exchange of opinions. I thank you also for your good wishes and hope that you'll achieve stream-entry in the course of this existence too, by the only means possible, that of the eightfold path. mike 44472 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 4:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep jonoabb Hi Tep (and others) Glad to see you've revived the (unfinished) Anapanasati series. I'm sure the discussion to follow will be very useful. I think the summary materials you posted earlier are very useful, and I have kept a copy for future reference. Perhaps you can raise a question or two on particular parts that interest you. Is there anything you find controversial? Or post just one of the summaries at a time, for discussion, (or copy out extracts from the Psm text bit by bit for discussion). If you keep it to 'bite-sized' pieces, we can all snack along together ;-)) Looking forward to this series, and also your Mahanidana series. Jon Tep Sastri wrote: > >Dear Nina - > >Your input has unique qualities that are the characteristics of professional >authors, and I always value it highly. > >You're right that my Anapanasati review post is too long. I hope Sarah will >tell me about her condensing techniques for extracting relevant >information from several posts, each of which is already compact. > >The Mahanidana Sutta project will soon keep me busy. > > >Respectfully, > > >Tep > > 44473 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:26pm Subject: Comparing ... Conceit christine_fo... Dear all, I was discussing Conceit recently - and understand that the Buddha's teaching is that any comparison is a form of conceit, whether superior inferior or equal, as opposed to the everyday version that Conceit is 'blowing one's own trumpet'about one's achievments, successes or status. But after yesterday,it has occurred to me that sometimes making comparisons may be beneficial. A story: Yesterday was Saturday here in Brisbane, and I collected my daughter for shopping and brunch into the city. We had the usual enjoyable time buying a few things, trying on clothes, chatting, laughing and eating together. I had serendipitously come across a CD containing Jeff Buckley singing his hauntingly beautiful version of Hallelujah, after only hearing it again that morning on a radio programme - as well as finding a book I had been looking for for ages. I felt quite cheerful and optimistic, a change from the recent sadness over Rusty. Afterwards, I dropped my daughter off at her home, and after travelling a kilometre or so, decided to pull over and put the Jeff Buckley song in the CD player. The package containing the CD (three disc set) the book, and a few other purchases wasn't in the car. Sudden mood change to shock and anxiety. Rang daughter on the mobile - she didn't have an extra parcel, and we realised that it had probably been left in the food court of the major shopping centre where we had had lunch. This was 20 kilometres away, crowded with Saturday shoppers - there had been hundreds of people in the food court ... doom and gloom took over completely. We expressed a negative view of the likely honesty of individuals in the Food Court and what they were likely to do with over a $100 with of goods I'd left behind. (*We* of course would hand them in, but ....). Then I had a 'brilliant' thought - there was another major shopping centre on the way to my home - only a further 8 kilometres - and there was the identical-chain shop where I had found the CD and the book. I could at least buy them again. Relief, satisfaction, joy. Drove there, parked, wandered the length of the Centre - only to find the shop that had been there for eighteen years had closed down two weeks before. Hopelessness, feeling victimised by , sad again, and generalised irritation. Poor me. I rang the original major shopping centre, spoke to Customer Service - and they said they had all my purchases, handed in intact by someone. Delight, joy, relief, and shame at my previous judgmental attitude. So I drove in, parked, collected the goods, expressed my gratitude, and feeling exasperated now at the loss of so much time, I drove back on the Freeway to come home. Feeling totally washed out by the intensity and range of emotions that had overwhelmed me in the hour and half previously. I was in the fast lane with the metre high concrete barrier between me and the three lanes of high speed traffic going the other way. Suddenly there were fire trucks, ambulances, tow trucks, police and three lanes of unmoving traffic on the other side of the barrier. There had been an accident some time previously - the traffic in my lane slowed suddenly with screeching brakes as people tried to have a look. I was two metres from paramedics with a body on a stretcher, obviously deceased, being placed in the back of the ambulance. The unmoving traffic stretched for 6 kilometres - the accident must have occurred within minutes of me travelling in the identical lane on my way into the city collect the 'lost' goods ... how trivial, embarrassingly self-centred and pointless were "my" concerns and "my" precious feelings about books and CD's and inconvenient things that happen to "me"..... compared with this horror or death and injury and grief happening to other individuals and families ... this person had started out just like me, to go to the city for shopping, with no thought that this was their dying day ...just like me. And just as he is, so shall I be ... Perhaps not all comparisons are odious ... metta, Chris 44474 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:08pm Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > > Your input has unique qualities that are the characteristics of professional > authors, ============== Dear Tep and all, You might not know that Nina never recieves any money for any of her numerous books. (Nina never told me this but I know from her publisher). Robertk 44475 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:25pm Subject: Essential & Crucial...!!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What the Blessed Buddha actually said & did: The unsurpassable blissful advantage gained by thorough perusal of these 3 ancient text collections lasts more than this life... Not much else in this petty world give such lift!!! The ancient and authentic Sacred Buddhist Scriptures are: The Long Discourses of the Buddha. Digha Nikaya. 1996. Walshe http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=251033 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?CatNumber=1212 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha. Majjhima Nikaya. 1995 Nanamoli: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/index.html http://www.wisdompubs.org/products/086171072X.cfm http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?CatNumber=6024 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Connected Discourses of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya.2000. Bodhi. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?CatNumber=10553 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ For more serious study of the 2488 years old sacred Buddhist texts: All the original sources are at The Pali Text Society: http://www.palitext.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44476 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >>TM aside, though, let's consider further the practice you describe here, >>because it relates to the question of jhana. Are you suggesting that >>the training of the mind in this manner would be an instance of kusala? >>Merely paying attention to a 'neutral subject' does not fit with any of >>the kinds of kusala I have seen described. You mention other >>appropriate conditions. What do you have in mind here? >> >>Jon >> >> >... > At the NY Buddhist Vihara, Jon, the head monk once told me that I had >definitely entered jhana using a TM mantra, and he also said I could just as >well use "1,2,3,4; 4,3,2,1" repeatedly!!!! The point is that concentration DOES >lead to calm. > > Thanks for sharing your own experiences. As you know, I place considerable importance on the scriptural basis of things. I know of no support in the texts for the idea that concentration on a neutral object leads to kusala, so I'd be interested to hear of any references that you or others may know of. Jon 44477 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma jonoabb Geoff Thanks once again for a comprehensive reply. > > >J: Does it appear from the suttas, taking both the occasions described >and the actual teachings given, that enlightenment was on occasion >attained without the (mundane) jhanas having first been attained? > >If your question here is: Is enlightenment only attainable in jhana? >And clearly (IMO) the answer is no. There are examples of disciples >becoming arahants while listening to a discourse, and presumably not >in jhana at that moment. But if your question is: Is enlightenment >possible without jhana, that is, without the fully integrated bhavana >of samatha and vipassana as taught in the Sutta Pitaka? And IMO the >answer would be no, it's not. The stable ongoing >maintenance of the lokuttara paths and fruitions, requires the full >integration of sila, samadhi, and panna as detailed in the Vinaya >Pitaka and Sutta Pitaka. > > In the first part of your answer above, you mention the examples in the suttas (of which I think there are many) of disciples becoming arahants while listening to a discourse, and presumably not being in jhana at that moment. But, if I have understood you correctly, you take the view that those same disciples must have attained mundane jhana (even though there is no indication of this in the suttas in question either), and I think you see this as a matter of doctrine. I'd be interested to know the passages that proclaim this doctrine: is it the fact that samma-samadhi of the Noble Eightfold Path is defined in terms of the 4 jhanas, or are there other specific passages also? >J: More importantly, I think, and regardless of one's view on Q.1, do >the teachings contained in the suttas have anything to say about the >development of the insight at this moment now, as we read this post or >compose our reply, or is it said that unless certain other >practice/development has been undertaken there's no chance of >awareness or insight arising? > >My whole point has been that vipassana/panna should be developed at >all times -- including during the formal sitting practice of jhana -- >and that proper jhana is impossible without it. This IMO is the clear >mesage in the Sutta Pitaka. > Yes, 'at all times', then we agree on this point, and also have some common ground for discussion ;-)) So, to return to my example of the present moment, what would you see as being the development of vipassana/panna as one is reading this post or composing a reply; or what passages from the texts do you see as addressing this occasion/situation? > > > A quick question on your other theme of the object of jhana consciousness. >I can't speak for Ajahn Thanissaro of course, but I think I >may have given the wrong impression of my own position regarding the >object of jhana (by the awkward way I may have initiated this query) >as I'm reading your understanding of what I've been saying. I hope >the first part of this post (which was also stated in previous post) >clarifies that it's my opinion that piti, sukha, etc, as detailed in >jhana formula and described with graphic imagery in AN V.28, is >the 'object' of jhana, and although I can't experientially confirm >this regarding kasina jhana, I would propose that irregardless of >counterpart image, piti and sukha would be main object to be >experientially developed in kasina meditation also. > Thanks for explaining this, and my apologies for not reading carefully everything you have said (there's been quite a lot of ground covered in the last 2 days or so ;-)). The idea of the so-called 'jhana factors' as being the *object* of jhana is one I have not come across before. Where exactly do you find this stated in the texts, and is it said what happens to the object that was the object of samatha bhavana up to the time of jhana consciousness arising (e.g., the kasina, the reflection, or whatever)? Jon 44478 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:09am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 169- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (l) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.9 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya) contd] Questions i Which cittas are not accompanied by adhimokkha? ii Can adhimokkha arise in a sense-door process? iii Can viriya be akusala? iv Viriya is saòkhåra dhamma. Why did the Buddha exhort people to strive for wisdom although there is no self who can put forth energy? v What is right effort of the eightfold Path? vi Which are the proximate causes for right effort? vii How can right effort of the eightfold Path be developed? viii At which moment is right effort of the eightfold Path be developed? ix What is the object which right effort of the eightfold Path experiences? ***** [Ch.8 Determination(adhimokkha) & Energy(viriya))finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 44479 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep sarahprocter... Hi Tep (Nina, Connie & James), --- Tep Sastri wrote: > You're right that my Anapanasati review post is too long. I hope Sarah > will > tell me about her condensing techniques for extracting relevant > information from several posts, each of which is already compact. ... S: No, I don't have any techniques - I think you're the expert here in this regard:-). The way you summarise the points and organise them as you did in response to my Musings8 post is highly commendable and very useful. (I really appreciated your detailed response a lot and look forward to getting back to it when I have time.....for some friends here, I'm sure the entire post was 'controversial' to put it politely, so I was glad you agreed with some points:-). I think Nina was just referring to the short extracts from 'Cetasikas' which don't involve any special techniques. Perhaps as Jon suggested, you can just post one of your extracts from the anapanasati series at a time with any of your own comments after Nina's for further discussion. Or any other way you like - the point is just that it is such a difficult subject and most of us need to go slowly:-/ > The Mahanidana Sutta project will soon keep me busy. > Mahanidana Sutta - If you have time to look at U.P. under 'Dependent origination', 'Sankhara', 'Vinnana', 'Avijja' and I forget what else, you will find quite a lot of posts on the sutta with commentary details, parts of BB's intro,etc. Another possibility is to search for 'Mahanidana' in www.dhammastudygroup.org. Connie, if you're not too busy, could you help fish out the U.P. posts as you did with Nina's anapanasati series or better still, join in the discussions? I think RobM, Chris and others were also planning to discuss more on D.O., so this might help kick-start those threads too... Tep, I think it's also very helpful to just discuss one term at a time, like you're doing with sankhara and sankhata....Like with anapanasati, most of us need to go slowly. Metta and thanks again for your excellent response to Musings8 - I assure you, I'm just learning as I write. Metta, Sarah p.s James (or anyone else) - why not consider opening a file with your own alternative set of 'James's U.P.' (or any other name)in whatever format you like? If you do so, I'd suggest you just need to keep the total file size relatively small(like the U.P. size, for example) as space is limited and larger files get removed from time to time. ======== 44480 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:16am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep buddhistmedi... Dear RobertK - Not accepting any money from the publishers of her "numerous books" is a proof that Nina devotes her life to the Dhamma - and that is very admirable! Thank you for telling us. Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > > Your input has unique qualities that are the characteristics of > professional > > authors, > ============== > Dear Tep and all, > You might not know that Nina never recieves any money for any of her > numerous books. (Nina never told me this but I know from her publisher). > > Robertk 44481 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:00am Subject: Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah (Jon, Nina, Connie, James and others) - Thank you very much for the kind comments about my reply to your Musing8 post. One nice thing about your response is that it is free from 'this is my point, that is me' and such quality is beautiful. You wrote, "Perhaps as Jon suggested, you can just post one of your extracts from the anapanasati series at a time with any of your own comments after Nina's for further discussion. Or any other way you like - the point is just that it is such a difficult subject and most of us need to go slowly:-/ ". I warmly accept Jon's suggestion with appreciation -- without any question, it is a very good advice. I thank you both for your trust and will always cooperate with you and your team for the benefit of DSG members. So I will keep in mind the following points : -- Discuss one term at a time -- Make a message short (space is limited) -- Search for other posts for clues and details -- Have team spirit (listen to others in the team) Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep (Nina, Connie & James), > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > You're right that my Anapanasati review post is too long. I hope Sarah > > will > > tell me about her condensing techniques for extracting relevant > > information from several posts, each of which is already compact. > ... > S: No, I don't have any techniques - I think you're the expert here in > this regard:-). > 44482 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:24am Subject: [dsg] Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep buddhistmedi... Hi Jon (Sarah, Chris, Nina) - It is a relief to me that you don't mind about my lengthy Anapanasati2 summary! Your suggestion below is very logical, practical and totally acceptable : Jon: Perhaps you can raise a question > or two on particular parts that interest you. Is there anything you > find controversial? Or post just one of the summaries at a time, for > discussion, (or copy out extracts from the Psm text bit by bit for > discussion). If you keep it to 'bite-sized' pieces, we can all snack > along together ;-)) > Thank you for energizing the team spirit in me, Jon. Please feel free to tell me anytime when something doesn't go right. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep (and others) > > Glad to see you've revived the (unfinished) Anapanasati series. I'm > sure the discussion to follow will be very useful. > 44483 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Phil's letter from Japan sarahprocter... Hi Phil, Great to know you're back in cyberland:-):-) > Letter from Phil > ******************* > Hi Sarah, and all > > Hello again > > A new computer with a giant monitor that is already making my > feeble eyes hurt. It's been a very good period for Dhamma study, > listening a lot to the tapes that Ken was kind enough to send me, in > addition to reading. I'll have a lot of questions and comments based > on the tapes, I imagine. ... S: We always look f/w to your posts. Thx for the other feedback. Just briefly now - you sent me a few notes off-list and I tried to respond to your queeries and computer probs, but my two emails didn't go through to your add, so I'm letting you know here. This post of yours I forwarded to the list as you saw, but I haven't seen the 'Cetasikas' one you mentioned here or in my account. Hope you get it all sorted out. You asked about the recent Bkk recordings - it'll be sometime. We've been further editing the India 2001 recordings which will be put on the website next - Jon, Nina and others with A.Sujin -v.good. also the last Sri lanka ones mostly edited. I'll announce it. Welcome back! Metta, Sarah ====== 44484 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 3:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/17/05 4:17:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jsabbott@... writes: > Thanks for sharing your own experiences. > > As you know, I place considerable importance on the scriptural basis of > things. I know of no support in the texts for the idea that > concentration on a neutral object leads to kusala, so I'd be interested > to hear of any references that you or others may know of. > > Jon > ======================== You may recall from a long time back our "spiral" discussions. There was a chain of conditions, with calm a condition for concentration and concentration a condition for wisdom, and you may recall how the chain is really a spiral, with each factor, ever enhanced, feeding back to strengthen the "earlier ones", and that includes concentration supporting an increase in calm. Also, Jon, concentration is a major condition for attaining the jhanas (characterized by increasing calm - that, BTWm is why it is called "samatha bhavana"! ;-). Moreover, Jon, from first-hand knowledge, I know that sustained concentration on neutral or pleasant object unquestionably induces calm - there is no more doubt of that than there is of the inability to breathe leading to distress, or lack of food leading to hunger. As to concentration on a neutral object leading to kusala, well, there certainly is textual reference to many such objects leading to wholesome phenomena, including great calm. Such objects include kasinas and all the other various meditation subjects listed by Buddhaghosa, and definitely include the breath (which is certainly "neutral"). Jon, were you to give meditation on the breath sensations around the nose/upper lip a true trial, I have no doubt, unless your scepticism is even stronger than I think, that you will quickly and easily observe calm and peace grow in your mind. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44485 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:16am Subject: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas sarahprocter... Larry, Nina,Tep, Al & All - Letter from B.Bodhi in response to mine (see my email at end of post) ************************************************************ Subject: yes, a confused note Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 09:18:24 -0400 Dear Sarah, Thank you for your e-mail. I reviewed note 9 on page 1400 of CDB of the Buddha in the light of your comments. I did not consider them the least bit disrespectful and appreciate your open and honest criticism. I think you would also appreciate it if I remain faithful to my own position even though we will at certain points, as in the past, have to "agree to disagree." I freely admit the note is confused, both grammatically and conceptually. The reason it is confused is that I am mixing up ideas, expressions, and modes of thought derived from different periods in the evolution of Theravada Buddhist thought. Unlike traditional Theravadins, I don't regard the Abhidhamma treatment of the aayatanas to have been identical with that of the early Nikayas, but to be the product of an attempt at systematization that evolved over several generations. This attempt culminated in a conceptual system marked by a comprehensive range and an extremely high degree of precision, but it led to significant changes in the original conception of the aayatanas evident in the Nikayas. But first let me say, just briefly, that even from the classical Theravadin standpoint, there was no reason for me to mention the subtle rupas in note 9 to the Connected Discourses, when I wrote about what was to be included in 'dhammaayatana'. In this note I was not proposing to give a general explanation of 'dhammaayatana'. Rather, I intended to explain how the dhammaayatana can include some of the factors of experience mentioned in SN 35:24 but not included in the "all" of SN 35:23. The second sentence in the note is the key to what follows: "... the factors mentioned here (and below) can be classified among the twelve bases." Since 35:24 does not mention subtle ruupas, there was no need for me to refer to them. The note becomes confused because: (1) the sentence quoted just above does not state that the method of classification I am going to use obtains from the standpoint of the Abhidhamma and commentaries and not from the Nikayas themselves;(2)I make matters worse confounded by introducing an expression 'dhammaaramma.na', which is not found in the suttas, and then contrasting this with 'dhammaayatana'. Your objection that the 'dhammaayatana' does not include concepts then arises because you then bring in the late idea of the 'dhammaaramma.na' including pannatti, concepts, which you see as incompatible with the relatively late idea of the 'dhammaayatana' as being a 'sabhaavadhamma', a naturally existent phenomena that cannot include concepts. These subtle discriminations are products of later phases in the development of Buddhist thought, which one doesn't find in the Nikayas themselves. And in the note I should have kept to a clear distinction between the Nikayas and the later developments of Theravadin thought. In the Nikayas, the sa.laayatana are also called the 'cha phassaayatanaani', the six bases for contact, and this gives us an indication of what they refer to: they are the six internal and external sense bases, *through the contact between which* the six types of consciousness originate. Now, just as the first five external sense bases signify the objects of their respective classes of consciousness -- the objects that correspond to their respect sense faculties -- so, as I see it, the dhammaayatana, as conceived in Nikaaya Buddhism, can only signify the objects of manovinnaa.na, which come into range of manovinnaa.na through the cognitive activity of mano. It is interesting to note that whereas later Abhidhamma Buddhism drives a wedge between 'dhammaayatana' and 'dhammaaramma.na', in the Salaayatanasa.myutta one hardly finds the expression 'aayatanas' used at all. Its occurrence is very rare. Yet all 240 odd suttas in this collection speak again and again about "the eye ... the mind," and "forms ... dhammas." So these must be the aayatanas, otherwise the ancient theras made a major mistake in assigning this sa.myutta the name Salaayatanasa.myutta. And again and again the suttas say, "In dependence on the eye and form, eye-consciousness arises," ... "In dependence on the mano and dhammas, mind-consciousness arises." So what can these dhammas be, but simultaneously 'dhammaayatana' (for this is the Salaayatana-sa.myutta) and the objects of 'manovinnana' because they are perfectly parallel in position to rupa, sadda, etc., in relation to eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, etc. One might object, "Well, the dhammas here are feeling, perception, volition, subtle rupas, etc., because these are necessary for manovinnana to arise." I would then point to a number of passages in the Salaayatana-sa.myutta and elsewhere which state: "Having seen a form with the eye, ... Having cognized a dhamma with mano ..." My point is, that the dhamma is not merely something that accompanies manovinnaa.na; it is the *object* of manovinnaa.na. So there is no real distinction between 'dhammaayatana' and dhammas as objects of manovinna.na. I won't use the word 'dhammaaramma.na', since this will bring along the connotations of the word from its use in later Abhidhamma Buddhism, and hence lead to cognitive dissonance. But I would say that to drive a wedge between 'dhammaayatana' and the objects of manovinnana is to move in a direction different from, perhaps even contrary to, that of Nikaya Buddhism. Why did the Buddhist community set out in a different direction? I can only speculate about that, but if one looks closely at the Salaayatana-sa.myutta one can see signs that indicate an answer. The suttas in this collection are concerned primarily with *the training of a monk* intent on winning liberation. They are not concerned with theory. Now for this training to succeed, what is of principal concern is the overcoming of craving through the mastery of the senses. Thus a monk in training is concerned to overcome the attraction and repulsion towards pleasant forms, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile objects, and any mental objects that arise, whether conceptual or "naturally existent phenomena." I would conjecture that it was when the interest in certain sections of the Buddhist community shifted from practice to theory, from training to classification, that we find a new role being assigned to the 'dhammaayatana'. Now it must become an all-inclusive category, containing everything that can't be comprised by the other eleven aayatanas. It was also in this phase -- or even some centuries later -- that distinctions were drawn between naturally existent phenomena and conceptual phenomena, and from this arose the distinction between 'dhammaayatana' and 'dhammaaramma.na'. At this point 'dhammmaayatana' became almost fully detached from its original role and now took on quite a different, almost an opposed function. This is all I intend to say on this issue. If you wish, you can post this letter on your e-mail group site, but without my e-mail address. I just returned to the Anguttara Nikaya this past week, after two years, and to protect myself, I don't want to become entangled in long correspondences. For this reason too, I won't respond directly to Tep. I took a look at his question and can answer very briefly. The expression "stream of cittas" was one that I just picked upon in the course of writing. I did not use this intending it as the translation of a technical term used by the Buddha (though it might be seen to correspond to citta-santaana or citta-santati, the mental-continuum, or vinnaanasota, stream of consciousness0. It is not a citta beyond the fifteen, but the ongoing succession of cittas as they appear rapidly arising and passing away. With metta, BB. -----Original Message----- From: sarah abbott [mailto:sarahprocterabbott@...] Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 3:57 AM To: bhikkhu bodhi Subject: Qus from Tep & Andrew c/o Sarah Dear Ven Bodhi, We both hope you're well settled by now at Bodhi monastery and that your headache condition is tolerable at least. Many of our friends wonder how the work is going on AN and whether you've been able to continue with the project. I'd be grateful for any information to pass on in this regard. Recently, a member, Andrew, of DSG wrote a report after meeting you at the NY Buddhist Vihara and another keen member, Tep, wondered if some of his questions could be conveyed to you. I said I would try to help, but everyone understands that you may be too busy to respond. I enclose the links to the three relevant messages here, which I think you'd find of some interest anyway: ..... Andrew http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43883 Tep http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43885 Andrew http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43888 ... I recently had some discussion about SN 35:24 (2) Abandonment and there was some confusion with regard to your notes on this. Perhaps I'm being dense when I say they seem unclear. If you have time, pls look at my message here and I apologise if my comments seem disrespectful in anyway: Sarah's message http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/42812 .... <....> 44486 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:10am Subject: Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results/ MN 149 buddhistmedi... Dear Mike, (RobertK and Kel ) - Thank you very much for your consistency, friendship and mutual respect. I truly enjoy reading your comments that show in-depth knowledge of a practitioner. Tep: But if you really want to get the hell out of this world as quickly > as possible, in my opinion the yogi's way is the only way. Mike: Well, that's the issue, isn't it? I have tried the yogi's way unsuccessfully and am among those who think that this may well no longer be an option--even for fully ordained people. The fact that many laypeople in the texts entered the various paths without being (at least professional) yogis does suggest to me that the yogi's way is not the only way. Tep: Thanks to your emails (including a few the Hotmail off-list communication) about samatha and vipassana that have helped me soften my strong view somewhat. Now I begin to realize that my strong belief on the samatha meditation is too rigid. Yes, Mike, believe it or not, I am going to modify that "rigid view" as follows : Despit the numerous cases as told in the suttas, all of which being strongly supported by the Buddha and a number of Arahants, there are also clear evidences (although smaller in number) of Ariya puggalas who attained magga-nana from samatha-vipassana in tandem, or even from pure vipassana. However, even for pure vipassana practitioners, when the Eightfold factors are mature and the five indriyas are in good balance, then both samatha and vipassana are also in full bloom. My unshaken understanding has been that MN 149 emphasizes the fact that regardless of where you begin, the end result is identical. "Thus for him, having thus developed the noble eightfold path, the four frames of reference go to the culmination of their development. The four right exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening go to the culmination of their development. [And] for him these two qualities occur in tandem: tranquillity & insight". --------------------- Mike : I would speculate that, in this context, tranquility is synonymous with absorption, but of course that's just my speculation. Tep : Technically the term tranquillity (passaddhi) is an enlightenment (bojjhanga) factor, while absorption is jhana and it is related to concentration (samadhi) which is another bojjhanga factor. ----------------- Mike: I've been told that this is an example of insight and tranquility being cultivated together. I'm not sure that the difference between the two is always cut and dried, but the object here--breathing in long etc.-- seems to me to be a concept, so this also sounds like samatha or jhaana bhaavanaa to me. Whether either or both, though, in this description it's clearly being done by a bhikkhu. ... ... Yes, in the Yuganaddha (congruous; harmonious; connected to a yoke) Sutta (Anguttara Nikaya 4.170) the two seem plainly to be 'in tandem'. Tep: I like the idea that both samatha and vipassana can be developed "in tandem" -- when the front and the rear wheels are rotating together, the bicycle is propelled ahead. Yes, I agree with you that the 4th case in Anguttara Nikaya 4.170 is also another example of samatha and vipassana being developed in tandem (rather than simultaneously). There is no way for a magganana to arise without samatha as one of the supports. The following excerpt explains why. "And what qualities are to be comprehended through direct knowledge? 'The five clinging-aggregates,' should be the reply. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. These are the qualities that are to be comprehended through direct knowledge. "And what qualities are to be abandoned through direct knowledge? Ignorance & craving for becoming: these are the qualities that are to be abandoned through direct knowledge. "And what qualities are to be developed through direct knowledge? Tranquillity & insight: these are the qualities that are to be developed through direct knowledge. "And what qualities are to be realized through direct knowledge? Clear knowing & release: these are the qualities that are to be realized through direct knowledge. [MN 149] Mike: I don't have them indexed though--could you cite them for us? I think it would be especially valuable if we can find instances of the Buddha advising laypeople to go to the roots of trees or attend retreats and so on. Tep: I am afraid that I have not seen such an advice either. About citing those suttas (instructing laypeople how to become Sotapanna and Anagami), I will send you the information in the next email. Kel and Robert probably have the citation for these suttas too. Mike: I thank you also for your good wishes and hope that you'll achieve stream-entry in the course of this existence too, by the only means possible, that of the eightfold path. Tep: The truth of the Eightfold path is beyond worldlings' comprehension, but it is clearly seen by people with samma-ditthi. "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing." [MN 2 Sabbasava Sutta] Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > Hi Again Tep, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tep Sastri" > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 12:53 PM > Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results > > I'm impressed as always by your scholarship and courtesy-- > 44487 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:25am Subject: Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Thanks for this note. It certainly complicates things quite a bit, in my view. My take is that B. Bodhi is saying later commentarial views on concept and reality are contrary to the concerns of the nikayas. How do you see it? Larry 44488 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:54am Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma matheesha333 Hi Geoff, > My whole point has been that vipassana/panna should be developed at > all times -- including during the formal sitting practice of jhana -- > and that proper jhana is impossible without it. This IMO is the clear > mesage in the Sutta Pitaka. Could you explain what you mean that jhana is impossible without developing panna. I have read similar statements in the suttas but found it rather cryptic. Is what you mean by panna, knowing the object of meditation very well here rather than seeing thilakkana or arising and passing away? I dont think I have come across any differentiation between supramundane jhana and mundane jhana in the suttas. Any ideas about this? metta Matheesha 44489 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 11:49am Subject: Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Sarah: James (or anyone else) - why not consider opening a file with your own alternative set of 'James's U.P.' (or any other name)in whatever format you like? James: This is kind of you to offer, and demonstrates a clear sense of openness that I appreciate (things are getting better), but I don't know if this would be such a good idea. I don't want to put myself into that much of an adversarial role (you may not see it that way, but I'm sure others would). I could just name it "Even More Useful Posts"! ;-)). Not only that, it would be difficult for me to determine the posts which would make the cut: many, many posts are useful for different people at different times. I would probably end up picking posts because they were well-written, and that isn't always the best criteria. Not only that, it would take a lot of my time because I would have to read each of the posts, and that would take away from my other dhamma activities. This group is so busy that, if you let it, it can suck your life away. So, anyway, thanks for the offer but I think I will pass. However, since you have made this suggestion, you won't find me saying another negative comment about your U.P. again, ever. Metta, James 44490 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 0:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Breathing. nilovg Hi Mike, Tep,Kelvin. I like your dialogue very much. I always find the anapanasati difficult to understand. As Mike says, breathing in long etc.--seems to me to be a concept. Yes, but the citta which attends to it is a nama, non-self. It has to be realized as such. Citta is one of the four applications of mindfulness that one should attend to. Also, even one knows that breathing is long, there is still rupa impinging, and hardness or heat may appear. The nimitta of breath experienced in jhana is very, very subtle according to the Vis. As to the phrase:< Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long>, Jhana is not thinking about breath being long or short. Jhanacitta only experiences a nimitta of breath, nothing else. My personal idea: in between jhanacittas he is aware of nama and rupa, and he knows whether he is breathing in long or short. Also just before entering jhana. Jhanacittas are alternated with kaamaavacara cittas. The entering in and emerging must be very rapid. Kelvin, could you please ask your teachers? We need also anutiikas for this. I have always found these phrases difficult. As to the term bhikkhu, you also understood this to be a name for whoever develops the eightfold Path, that is the meaning in the widest sense. Nina. op 17-04-2005 01:28 schreef mnease op mlnease@...: > "Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing > out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long." > > I've been told that this is an example of insight and tranquility being > cultivated together. I'm not sure that the difference between the two is > always cut and dried, but the object here--breathing in long etc.--seems to > me to be a concept, so this also sounds like samatha or jhaana bhaavanaa to > me. Whether either or both, though, in this description it's clearly being > done by a bhikkhu. 44491 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 0:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: calm nilovg Hi Howard, op 16-04-2005 21:11 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > I dodn't expect my mindstates to be free of attachment for a long, > long time, Nina! > --------------------------------------- N: It is beneficial to realize this. We know that we have the latent tendency of attachment. This conditions the arising of it. Now, what I find important is to begin to realize when there is attachment. This is difficult, especially when it is accompanied by indifferent feeling. Indifferent feeling seems so peaceful, but it may very well be feeling accompanying attachment, most of the time. ------------------------------------ > Howard: > True calm doesn't come until the 3rd or 4th jhana. Even the 2nd jhana > is filled with bliss! -------------------------------- N: You are right that the 2nd jhana is still coarse and not as calm as the higher jhanas. There are many degrees of calm. But each kusala citta, and thus also jhanacitta is accompanied by the cetasikas that are calm. Jhanacitta, even of the first stage, is calm compared to the cittas of the sense-sphere. Lokuttara cittas eradicate defilements and thus these lead to calm greater than jhaana. But I have no experience, all I know is from reading the suttas and the Visuddhimagga. H: quotes: The citta that begins to develop samatha should be right from the >> start: it should be kusala citta with alobha, adosa and amoha or paññaa. >> > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > Nina, we cannot wait for conditions to be perfect. Constant practice of > sila as best we can is sufficient preparation. ------------------------- N: I like to take siila very widely, not merely keeping the precepts, abstaining from wrong conduct. Kusala siila are kusala actions through body and speech. And even when we do not intend to develop jhana, it is beneficial not to take for kusala what is akusala. Through the development of insight it will be known more precisely what is kusala and what is akusala, but at least, we can begin to investigate more. If one wants to develop the Brahmavihaaras, one should know in daily life when there is the near enemy of attachment instead of metta. Pañña should investigate this. Siila can become more accomplished and firmer when it is accompanied by paññaa. Of course for beginners, perfection cannot be expected, but if the cause is wrong the result cannot be right. I try to think of those who developed samatha to the degree of jhana I read about in the scriptures. They had to have right attention to their cittas in daily life, to their practice of siila, kusala deeds and speech. They had to know when the citta was pure kusala, without any trace of lobha, and when there was attachment. When they begun, they were not perfect, but at least they did not delude themselves. They cultivated the right cause leading to the right result. Nina. 44492 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 0:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. nilovg Hi Geoff, op 16-04-2005 21:48 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: > > The fact that there is still a very subtle bodily pleasant feeling > means that one still feels/experiences the body in the third jhana > (the explanation of mental and physical sukha in Psm. Commentary on > Breathing gives details regarding distinction -- which I propose are > addressing jhana resulting from anapanasati). -------------------- N: As I said to Howard, all I know is from reading scriptures, Vis. and Co. I just read in Vis. IV, 175: This is the same as the Atthasaalinii I quoted for you. Sukha can mean bodily feeling that is vipaaka, and also somanassa, mental pleasant feeling that is a jhanafactor. When someone enters jhana for the first time, it is just for a moment. He could very well notice a bodily sensation when emerging. When in jhana: he could not. What is otherwise the sense of distinguishing kaamaavacara citta and jhaanacitta as different planes of citta? When the yogavacara wants to attain the second jhana he must already have mastery of jhana, entering and emerging whenever he wants. For instance, when he develops insight he can in between jhanas be aware of nama and rupa, that includes bodily feelings. Knowing this may be helpful in interpreting texts. ------------------ G: I’ve been at this > for a fairly long time, during which I’ve done extensive > individual retreat and also lived in residence at a Buddhist > monastery for almost 2 yrs. where the daily regimen was 4 1/2 hrs of > mandatory group sitting daily, with 8 1/2 hours mandatory group > sitting every Sunday, and 6 1/2 hours mandatory group sitting daily > for 2 months of annual retreat. --------------------- N: I am amazed at your endurance. How could you hold out? How could others hold out? You must be motivated to cultivate jhana. What benefit do you seek from it, do you find it helpful? ------------------ G: Such phenomena can appear every sitting for > months or even years -- and then one day they can simply be gone -- > that’s how conditioned and therefore unstable all such quasi- > paranormal experiences are. But jhana, as the suttas describe it, and > as I recognize in my own experience, and as others recognize in their > own experience, is a fairly reliable and repeatable experience given > the appropriate conditions of environment, productive sila, and > ongoing panna, etc., are present. --------------- N: Yes, as I wrote to Howard, pañña should be emphasized, also for jhana. Otherwise one cannot know one's different cittas. Lobha always plays us tricks, and it comes in disguise! I read that someone expert in jhanas lost it because of akusala siila. I read it in the Jatakas, such as the Harita Jataka. He lost jhana and superpowers. I am frequently deluded by lobha. One of our Singhalese friemds translated a subco. on Vañcana dhammas, deluding dhammas, and this is delightfully down to earth. It is in U.P. (long ago), and I hope Sarah will give the link. I need it at least once a year to remind myself of all the tricks of lobha. There are meanwhile many newcomers who may like it. Good stuff for discussion with my husband, I shall print it out. ---------------- G: And it has been my experience and the experience of others I know, > that jhana in no way necessitates the cessation of sensory form > experience .... ------------------ N: I cannot talk from practice, only from the texts. ----------------- G: Yes, there’s a place for ancient commentary, I’m very > much fond of the Commentary on Breathing in the Patisambhidamagga for > example, ------------------ N: the Patisambhidamagga is not a Co. but it belongs to the Sutta Pitaka, the Kuddhaka Nikaya. ------------------- G: I discuss these matters not to puff > myself up, but to stimulate discussion of how one can experientially > relate to what is stated in Sutta Pitaka, and how one can also > measure if the commentarial descriptions are realistic, or > theoretical and quite possibly elitist -- based on absolutist > idealism and not on pragmatic every day realism. ----------------------- N: That is what also matters to me: pragmatic every day realism. I know your intentions: just stimulating discussion. Thanks to all your questioning I started to consider more the object of jhanacitta. I searched more in the Abh. and Co. on this subject. Thank you for sharing your experiences, Nina. 44493 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 0:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Phil's letter from Japan nilovg Hi Sarah and Phil good to hear from Phil, he is not out of our thoughts. I like the reminder: We did not do anything special, but conditions moved us to the situation of Dhamma study today. Discussing Dhamma here in this forum, being reminded by others of the truth at this moment. All this is conditioned by many factors, from the far past, the nearer past, conditions operating at this moment. Nina. op 16-04-2005 17:11 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > I've really come to appreciate the way of seeing > life and death with every citta, with every moment. Otherwise there > is such clinging to results. On the other hand, people will say that > this lifetime we were born as humans in a time when the Buddha's > teaching exists in the world, and that we must make good use of that > rare opportunity to study Dhamma. There are so many conditions that > must be fulfilled for us to be able to study Dhamma. 44494 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 0:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Comparing ... Conceit nilovg Dear Christine, Thank you for your well written reminder. Now, this is not the conceited way of comparing. It is like in the suttas, someone going to the charnel field and seeing a corpse: just as that body so will this body be. It is just a reminder of the truth. Nina. op 17-04-2005 04:26 schreef Christine Forsyth op cforsyth1@...: > this person had started out just like me, to go to > the city for shopping, with no thought that this was their dying > day ...just like me. And just as he is, so shall I be ... > > Perhaps not all comparisons are odious 44495 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:06am Subject: Lay people who heard Buddha & Awakened foamflowers Hi everyone...time to share some of my thoughts! I think jhana is the subtle conscious which is always there and most people just aren't aware of it. When jhana is a verb its the method and my teacher told me to watch out and not get attached to the method. When Jhana is used as a noun it is the subtle consciousness or as some of my friends call it, "The Super Consciousness", said in a deep voice that echos as it fades away. We are in jhana all the time, I would bet my eye teeth in this! In the past before meditation, for me at least, it was hard to be aware of that which is so subtle compared to what is manifested from aversion and clinging. From my own experience there seems to be no levels when I looked at the mind but rather just a clearer view of reality as it is without the overlay of conceptual thought--a less fragmented focus of what is very difficult to put into words. Jhana is still consciousness no matter how subtle or Super it is and from my limited understanding after getting to know this sutble consciousness it must also be let go of as well, to see reality as it is. It's all about deliverance of the mind and labeling helps in the birthing I think. When I first started my vipassana meditation I was told to label this sensation as it seemed to me--hot, cold, sharp, tingles, itches, moves, angry thought, greedy thought, aversion or craving and so on but I naturally dropped this labeling when sensation on the most subtle level were easily seen and let go of and this happened very naturally I had no notion of how it should be. I was totally clueless to attainments at this time...my teachers just told me to sit down and meditate some more or take a break or walk when I would come and tell them about the lights, bliss, visions or "oh my gosh my body went away!" or flooding thoughts, pain and so on. Maybe it is easier for people to wake up if they can name and lable things that come and go in the body/mind. Because for me I had never really paid much attention to sensation or reaction to sensation as it happened I was always tangled up in the past or in my thoughts and worries about the future or just playing with my imagination. Now it is easy to bend mind to notice subtle sensation that covers or is(?) body/mind like a blanket and watch it come and go or scan it to keep sensation in harmony. But to label all the methods and awarness all the time just stops the attention from viewing the natrual flow of sensation for me. How can I put what flows into nice neat boxes and then put labels on the boxes to explain this mind. I was totally confused about what was happening to me in my meditation when I compared my own experience to those words translated from an ancient religion written in an old long forgotten language belonging to a long lost culture translated by a mind from a different culture and time. To me and this is just my opinion Jhana is very natural and not a system and that confused me for years to the point where I just stopped comparing my own meditation to what is in the Canon. Although I had found relief it was not what the Arahants found or what Gotama found. I finally figured out the sutas are just reflections or reviews of someone elses method and attainments and not a meditation manual. Sutas and commentaries to me are like sign posts on a road and you don't pull up the sign posts or mile markers when you drive by them or stop and try to go into them..ouch...it is really hard to keep driving when the cab is full of mile markers! hahaha For a time and when I reached the more subtle of consciousness that is, what I could not touch easily with my mind, letting go of concepts happened naturally I think I got really tired of having to stick labels on what was coming and going faster than a blink of the eye (my attention span--hahaha---). I still work on subtle forms of aversion and craving which manifest as procrastination...this year I actually got to touch the sensation that triggers me just before I open my eyes in the morning I go to breath and can see it manifest just below my heart. I can actually follow this and watch it fade away!!! Yeah!!! Insights are hatching...hahaha For me after a time of letting go over and over again the sensations subtle or harsh didn't bring up words, thoughts, emotions or feelings that overwhelmed me and I was able to see just sensation. "Letting go of the more subtle consciousness or jhana at this time should happen naturally?" I use anapanasati to calm the body/mind down or perk it up when it was lagging and it helped me learn to focus on just one thing the breath which was very helpful in training my attention not to jump around so much. I use anapanasati all the time depending on what kind of focus I need. I found just intently focusing wasn't the issue for me, I can focus really well when I want too. I can stay on a painting and totally forget about time for hours or do long distance running and stay focused on running and not pain or stay for hours working on a computer problem but I still suffered from reactions to sensations I liked or didn't like. I think learning to focus mind on what is very subtle like virtues was and still is very helpful to me in letting go or unbinding from habitual reactions and thinking. The virtues kind of grease the Way so you can just slide through without to much friction! hahahaha I know everyone's patterns are different so views of Jhana, insight and wisdom will also be different when put into words because letting go of aversions and cravings happens differently for everyone....would you agree? Anyway I've been reading the posts here at DSG as they are delivered to my mail box at work and at home, I really enjoy the references, citations, and personal experiences of everyone. I don't have a lot of time to write much because I have two jobs plus meditaton, dhamma studies and lovely relationships to maintain. What a lovely weave here it's like a magic carpet ride! I dug into one of my reference books by Peter Masefield and found some lay people who may have done jhana. Jhana seems it have been very common and most meditators (from my limited reading) during Gotama's time spiritually trained people were very aware of jhana and had no fear of it. Understanding Jhana through awarness reminds me of weightlifting to get the muscles in shape got to work it or you'll lose it! The Arahants I've read about in discourses and references from other scholars seemed to have awakened through hearing a discourse or having many conversations with Gotama the Buddha (Teacher that is the pure mind or heart(personal opinion here). I bet most of these people were well versed in the method and the fruit and that is why they could 'hear' Buddha. Conversion: the person concerned became an Arahant: "Divine Revelation in Pali Buddhism" by Peter Masefield Vin i 17 Yasa Lay person became an Arahant through reviewing the Dhamma heard in discourse to Dighanakiha by Buddha. http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/y/yasa.htm Vin i 16 Yasa's father--Lay--Progressive talk--Buddha--fate unknown Vin i 18 Yasa's mother--Lay--Progressive talk--Buddha--fate unknown Yasa attained realization of the Dhamma. To Yasa's father, too, who had come in search of his son, the Buddha preached the Doctrine, having first made Yasa invisible to him. (This is given as an example of the Buddha's iddhi power, Vsm.393). At the end of the sermon he acknowledged himself the Buddha's follower, (he thus became the first tevácika upásaka) and Yasa, who had been listening, became an arahant. M i.380 name: Upali,--Layperson--awakened through progressive talks--by Buddha--Became an Arahant A iv 186 General Siha--Lay--Progressive talk--by Buddha--Arahant Vin I 15f, Yasa--Lay--Progressive talk--Buddha--Arahant Vin i 19 Subahu--Lay--Progressive talk--Buddha--Arahant Vin i 19 Punnaji--Lay--progressive talk--Buddha--Arahant Vin i 19f Gavampati plus 50 other lay people--Lay--Progressive talk--Buddha--Aarhant Vin i 23 30 friends from Pava--Lay--Progressive talk--Buddha--Arahant Vin I 181 Sona Kolivisa--Lay--Progressive talk--Buddha--Arahant D ii 40f Khanda and Tissa-- Lay--Progressive talk--Buddha Vipassin--Arahant D ii 43 84000 laymen--Lay--Progressive talk-Buddha Vipassin--Arahant M i 39f Sundarika-Bharadvajra--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant S i 161 Bharadvaja--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant S i 163 Akkosaka--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant S i 164 Asurindaka--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant S i 164 Bilangika--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant S i 165 Ahimsaka--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant Si 165 Jata--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant S i 165 Suddhika--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant S i 167 Aggika--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant S i 170 Sundarika--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant S i 171 Bharadvaja--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant Sn p 15 Kasi-Bharadvaja--Lay--Discourse--Buddha--Arahant With Metta, Lisa 44496 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 4:02pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas Evan_Stamato... Sarah, Thanks for posting this. I must admit to a selfish "joy" at reading this one line from Bhikkhu Bodhi's letter to you. I have been waiting a while for Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Anguttara Nikaya without even knowing if he was working on it. Now that I know he is putting this on a higher priority, I can patiently wait a few more years for his excellent work to be published. Kind Regards, Evan --Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi I just returned to the Anguttara Nikaya this past week, after two years, and to protect myself, I don't want to become entangled in long correspondences. With metta, BB. 44497 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. matheesha333 Hello Nina, I know of a place in Sri Lanka, a meditation centre. They train in Jhana and Vipassana. I have seen that quite a few people can achieve the 4 jhanas through intense practice within 2 weeks. Then they train in vipassana. Many go through to an understanding in Anatta and do away with their sakkayaditti. Then they watch arising and passing away until the egg shell breaks away and the chick is born. Then they develop phalasamawatha and abide in the same void. Some do all of this in a concentrated 2 weeks. Suddenly the sutta become so much more clearer. Interested? Vancana dhamma? Worth a try? :) oh and its free of charge. :) metta Matheesha 44498 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Phil's letter from Japan philofillet Hi Nina, and all > good to hear from Phil, he is not out of our thoughts. You haven't been out of my thoughts, either. The new computer has a fairly huge monitor that hurts my alreadey weak eyes. I should hold off on posting until I get glasses (which I keep putting off) but we'll see what happens. > I like the reminder: must be fulfilled for us to be able to study Dhamma.> I thought of this again yesterday. I saw two flies competing for a piece of shrimp that was lying on the ground on the park and realized that the unstudied way they respond to lobha is not *that* much different from the way people have the tendency to do This made me feel grateful for having been fortunate enough to come across the Buddha's teaching and for having the conditions necessary to respond to it. > We did not do anything special, but conditions moved us to the situation of > Dhamma study today. Discussing Dhamma here in this forum, being reminded by > others of the truth at this moment. Listening to the tapes, I really appreciate how not only Kh Sujin but also other people bring us back to what's real. In the middle of one perplexing (but useful) discussion about whether there is a difference between "no self" and "not self" a Thai man (Kom?) brought the talk back to the fact that there are only 4 paramattha dhammas. Hearing them listed again and again and again is helpful. These reminders sink in, the intellectual understanding deepens, we are pulled back from the sea of concepts and can stand a little more solidly on solid ground, just for a moment, before we are swept away again. But that moment conditions more moments of gradually deepening intellectual understanding, and without clinging to expectations about results we can feel confident that we are being moved closer towards direct understanding. It's very refreshing! That is a word I am using these days, conditioned by re-reading the chapter in Cetasikas on piti. I will be asking more about that when we get to that chapter. >All this is conditioned by many factors, > from the far past, the nearer past, conditions operating at this moment. I am also rereading "Conditions." Developing a more precise understanding of conditions, albeit intellectual, broadens and solidifies are theoretical understanding of anatta, which must come first before anything more direct can arise. ) I often think of things my friend James has said to me in the past. They tend to stick in my mind for some reason, perhaps because they go against the grain. He said "it seems you are studying Dhamma by studying this group" rather than studying suttas and reflecting on them. Well, I do read suttas (still concentrating on khandasamyutta and salayatanasamyutta) but I must admit I am now more drawn to Abhidhamma study. I still feel that the deeper my understanding of Abhidhamma is, the better I can understand suttas without getting caught up in subjective interpretations based on the way I subtly wish things to be. Of course that is also possible when we study Abhidhamma, but there seems to be less danger of it. I hope you and Lodewijk have been well and are enjoying the lovely spring weather. I think there are many tulips in your country. I had an experience with tulips that I want to ask you about - that will be in the piti chapter. Metta, Phil p.s Thanks again in passing to Sarah - I seemed to have worked out the glitch. 44499 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:43pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. Evan_Stamato... Matheesha, Please don't torment us. Which meditation centre is this? What are their contact details? And do they instruct in English? Thanks, Evan -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of matheesha Sent: Monday, 18 April 2005 10:39 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. Hello Nina, I know of a place in Sri Lanka, a meditation centre. They train in Jhana and Vipassana. I have seen that quite a few people can achieve the 4 jhanas through intense practice within 2 weeks. Then they train in vipassana. Many go through to an understanding in Anatta and do away with their sakkayaditti. Then they watch arising and passing away until the egg shell breaks away and the chick is born. Then they develop phalasamawatha and abide in the same void. Some do all of this in a concentrated 2 weeks. Suddenly the sutta become so much more clearer. Interested? Vancana dhamma? Worth a try? :) oh and its free of charge. :) metta Matheesha 44500 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 4/17/05 8:39:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dhammachat@... writes: > I know of a place in Sri Lanka, a meditation centre. They train in > Jhana and Vipassana. I have seen that quite a few people can achieve > the 4 jhanas through intense practice within 2 weeks. > > Then they train in vipassana. Many go through to an understanding in > Anatta and do away with their sakkayaditti. Then they watch arising > and passing away until the egg shell breaks away and the chick is > born. Then they develop phalasamawatha and abide in the same void. > Some do all of this in a concentrated 2 weeks. Suddenly the sutta > become so much more clearer. > =================== They don't happen to have a "sister" center in the U.S., do they? ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44501 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 6:33pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. Evan_Stamato... Ha! Didn't think of that, How about Australia? Kind Regards, Evan =================== They don't happen to have a "sister" center in the U.S., do they? ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44502 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:45pm Subject: Re: Comparing ... Conceit philofillet Hi Christine, and all First of all, Christine, sorry to hear about Rusty. I think he was a fortunate dog. On to conceit and comparing... > But after yesterday,it has occurred to me that > sometimes making comparisons may be beneficial. I enjoyed your story. There is so much to learn from in daily life. I would agree that it is helpful to compare ourselves to others in terms of conventional things, such as health, living circumstances and whether we are a cadaver being loaded into an ambulance or not. I guess it is that sort of comparison that triggered the Buddha's serach for enlightenment after his chariot ride. There are so many messengers like this in daily life, around us all the time. Since we are inevitably cuaght up in concepts about people, the concepts can at least become helpful in increasing our understanding. Maybe the area where it is a mistake to compare is when it comes to paramattha dhammas. We cannot know the other's citta. There is a natural tendency to think "that person understands better than I do" but strictly speaking that is wrong. There is no person, there is only understanding, moment by moment. Of course, some people have accumulated understanding in a way that makes it much more likely that they will have moments of understanding than I will, but I guess we have wrong view when we say "she understands better than I do." We fall into the trap of seeing understanding as something that is owned and operated by people. It's not really like that, when we get deeper into dhammas. I guess... Metta, Phil > 44503 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:40pm Subject: Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah - I am grateful to you Sarah for sending my two questions to Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi . I sincerely and gladly thank Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi for his brief answers. The term "mental-continuum" or "stream of consciousness" (citta- santaana or citta-santati) , he says, corresponds to the "stream of cittas" in my first question. And he explains further that such stream of cittas is not beyond the fifteen citta (i.e. vimutti citta in the cittanupassana of the Maha-satipatthana Sutta), but rather the "ongoing succession of cittas". However, my focus was on the particular moment right after the "apparent observer" disappears! It seems to me that this must be a special moment, not related to the "ongoing" normal succession of cittas when total release (vimutti) has not yet happened. ["At times there might appear to be a persisting observer behind the process, but with continued practice even this apparent observer disappears. The mind itself -- the seemingly solid, stable mind -- dissolves into a stream of cittas flashing in and out of being moment by moment, coming from nowhere and going nowhere, yet continuing in sequence without pause". Bhikkhu Bodhi ] Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Larry, Nina,Tep, Al & All - Letter from B.Bodhi in response to mine (see > my email at end of post) > ************************************************************ > > Subject: yes, a confused note > Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 09:18:24 -0400 > > Dear Sarah, > > Thank you for your e-mail. I reviewed note 9 on page 1400 of CDB of the group site, but without my e-mail address. (snipped) > > I just returned to the Anguttara Nikaya this past week, after two years, > and to protect myself, I don't want to become entangled in long > correspondences. For this reason too, I won't respond directly to Tep. I took a look at his question and can answer very briefly. The expression "stream of cittas" was one that I just picked upon in the course of writing. I did not use this intending it as the translation of a > technical term used by the Buddha (though it might be seen to correspond to citta-santaana or citta-santati, the mental-continuum, or > vinnaanasota, stream of consciousness0. It is not a citta beyond the > fifteen, but the ongoing succession of cittas as they appear rapidly > arising and passing away. > > With metta, > BB. > 44504 From: connie Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 11:42pm Subject: vancaka dhammas nichiconn Dear Nina, They're listed in UP's: Cheating (vancaka) Dhammas 3543, 3544, 3545, 10517 peace, connie 44505 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:08am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 170- Right Effort of the eightfold Path (a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path] As we have seen in chapter 9, there are several aspects to kusala viriya, right effort. It is a factor of the eightfold Path when it accompanies right understanding and right mindfulness of the eightfold Path and as such it is called sammå-våyåma . This type of effort or energy is not energy for mindfulness in the future, but energy for mindfulness right now. When there is right mindfulness of any characteristic which appears right now, there is also right effort accompanying the citta at that moment. We may find that mindfulness does not arise very often. It seems that we lack a true “sense of urgency”, which is according to the Atthasåliní and the Visuddhimagga the proximate cause of right effort. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44506 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas nilovg Hi Sarah, Larry, What I quote below may be the crux of the matter. Yes, this is all about the practice, as Ven, Bodhi says. It is about satipatthana, the essence of the teaching. This is awareness at this very moment of all that appears through the six doors. We are thinking of concepts most of the time but we have to learn what realities are It is a training, a learning process. Through the mind-door also the sights, sounds are experienced. It is only later on that one thinks of concepts on account of them. Concepts are not the objects of insight, they do not have the three characteristics. However, they are objects of citta that thinks about them. That is why they can be called dhammaaramma.na, objects that can only be known through the mind-door. Nina. op 17-04-2005 16:16 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > The > suttas in this collection are concerned primarily with *the training of > a monk* intent on winning liberation. They are not concerned with > theory. Now for this training to succeed, what is of principal concern > is the overcoming of craving through the mastery of the senses. Thus a > monk in training is concerned to overcome the attraction and repulsion > towards pleasant forms, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile objects, and any > mental objects that arise, whether conceptual or "naturally existent > phenomena." 44507 From: nina Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:31am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 152 and Tiika. nilovg "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 152, Attention, manasikaara. Intro: Attention is a ³universal², it is among the seven cetasikas that accompany each citta. It can be of the four jaatis that are kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya. In this context of the Visuddhimagga it assists, together with the other sobhana cetasikas, the mahaa-kusala citta that is accompanied by paññaa. As we have seen (Vis. Ch XIV, 133) attention is among the four cetasikas called Œor-whatever-dhammas¹ or supplementary factors (yevaapanaka). They are not expressively mentioned in the list of the Dhammasangani. The term manasikaara, attention, denotes the cetasika manasikaara as well as two kinds of citta, namely, the five-door adverting-consciousness and the mind-door adverting-consciousness. This will be explained further. **** Text Vis.: (xxx) It is the maker of what is to be made, it is the maker in the mind (manamhi kaaro), thus it is 'attention' (bringing-to-mind--manasi-kaara). ----------------- N: The Tiika elaborates further on the Pali term manasikaara, attention. As to the maker in the mind, manamhi kaaro, it is the maker of the object in the mind. We read in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.a. p. 56): -------------------------------- Text Vis.: It makes the mind different from the previous [life-continuum] mind, thus it is attention. ---------------------------------- Tiika: The previous mind is the bhavangacitta, life-continuum. ------------------------------ N: Here the Vis. refers to the cittas that are called manasikaara. The manasikaara which is the sense-door advertingconsciousness is the first citta of a sense-door process, succeeding the bhavangacitta. All bhavanga-cittas experience the same object as the rebirth-consciousness, and they do not arise in a process of cittas. They do not experience objects that are impinging on the six doors. The sense-door advertingconsciousness is completely different from the bhavanga-citta and it experiences a different object. It experiences an object impinging on one of the sense-doors. The manasikaara which is the mind-door adverting-consciousness is followed by javana cittas, which are kusala cittas or akusala cittas in the case of non-arahats. ----------------------------------------- Text Vis.: It has three ways of doing this: as the controller of the object, as the contoller of the cognitive series, and as the controller of impulsions. -------------------------------- N: Thus, there are three kinds of manaasikaara, attention. One kind is manasikaara cetasika, called, the regulator of the object, and two kinds are cittas. The five-door adverting-consciousness regulates the sense-door process of cittas, since it is the first citta of a sense-door process after the bhavanga-cittas and the mind-door adverting consciousness regulates the javana cittas, since it is succeeded by javana cittas. --------------------------------- Text Vis. : Herein, the controller of 'the object' is the maker in the mind, thus it is 'attention'. That has the characteristic of conducting (saara.na). Its function is to yoke associated states to the object. It is manifested as confrontation with an object. ------------------------------- N: As to the manifestation of confrontation with an object, the Tiika explains that it is different from sati that also confronts an object. The Tiika explains that the manifestation of sati is confrontation with an object because of non-forgetfulness. As we read about sati in Vis. XIV, 141:< or it is manifested as the state of confronting an objective field. > Sati is non-forgetful of wholesomeness, of daana, siila and bhaavanaa. However, the manifestation of attention, maanasikaara, is joining (associated states) to the object. -------------------------- Text Vis.: Its proximate cause is an object. It should be regarded as the conductor (saarathi) of associated states by controlling the object, itself being included in the formations aggregate. ----------------------------- N: Like a charioteer steers thorough-bred horses, it leads the associated dhammas towards the object. The cetasika manasikaara is included in sa.nkhaarakkhandha, the formations aggregate, whereas the two cittas that are also called manasikaara, are included in viññaa.nakkhandha, the aggregate of consciousness, as the Tiika states. ------------------------------ Text Vis. : 'Controller of the cognitive series' is a term for five-door adverting (70). 'Controller of impulsions' is a term for mind-door adverting (71). These last two are not included here. ----------------------- N: Thus, the cetasika manasikaara is called regulator of the object, aaramma.napa.tipaadaka. In this context of the Visuddhimagga manasikaara cetasika leads the accompanying dhammas to the object in the wholesome way. It assists the mahaa-kusala citta that is accompanied by paññaa together with the other sobhana cetasikas, such as confidence, sati, wish-to-do, and resolution for kusala. They each perform their own function in the perfoming of daana, the observing of siila, the development of samatha and of vipassanaa. As a charioteer, sobhana manasikaara conducts in a skilfull way the accompanying citta and cetasikas to the object of wholesomeness. Attention is conditioned by the citta and cetasika it accompanies and at each moment there is a different attention. It arises and falls away with the citta it accompanies. For the development of samatha, there has to be right attention to the different cittas that arise. One has to know precisely when the citta is pure kusala and when there is attachment to calm, otherwise calm cannot be developed. For the development of vipassanaa, there also has to be right attention to the object that appears. When there is mindfulness of a naama or a ruupa, right attention conducts the citta and cetasikas to the present object. At that moment paññaa, right understanding, can further develop. ********* Nina. 44508 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Phil's letter from Japan nilovg Hello Phil, thank you for your letter. I am glad you are back. I just thought of you when looking at Cetasikas Questions, and thought of putting that off ;-)) The suttas are such helpful reminders for awareness now. It is nice if you can share some sutta reading with us. I like khandasamyutta and salayatanasamyutta. Nina. op 18-04-2005 02:40 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > Well, I do read suttas (still concentrating on > khandasamyutta and salayatanasamyutta) but I must admit I am now > more drawn to Abhidhamma study. I still feel that the deeper my > understanding of Abhidhamma is, the better I can understand suttas 44509 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas sarahprocter... Hi Tep, I'm not sure I can help here, but let me add a comment all the same- --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Dear Sarah - <...> > I sincerely and gladly thank Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi for his brief answers. > The term "mental-continuum" or "stream of consciousness" (citta- > santaana or citta-santati) , he says, corresponds to the "stream of > cittas" in my first question. And he explains further that such stream > of > cittas is not beyond the fifteen citta (i.e. vimutti citta in the > cittanupassana of the Maha-satipatthana Sutta), but rather > the "ongoing succession of cittas". ... S: I understand BB to merely be pointing out that what we take for a self or an observer doesn't exist and that there is merely a 'stream of cittas' rising in falling away in succession. As understanding grows, clearly there are just impermanent namas (and rupas). Understanding develops - it's not that there is an 'apparent observer' and that this suddenly disappears as you suggest. Perhaps you are reading too much into his original comment or taking it too literally? ... > > However, my focus was on the particular moment right after > the "apparent observer" disappears! It seems to me that this must be a > special moment, not related to the "ongoing" normal succession of > cittas when total release (vimutti) has not yet happened. ... S: Are you referring to magga and phala cittas? I don't think BB is particularly. I don't know quite what you are referring to 'beyond the 15th kind of citta, ie 'the freed mind (vimutti citta' either. Pls elaborate. Can you quote the lines on cittanupassana in Maha-satipatthana S that you are referring to. I think I understand BB's comments here, but am not sure of yours, for which I apologise. .... > ["At times there might appear to be a persisting observer behind the > process, but with continued practice even this apparent observer > disappears. The mind itself -- the seemingly solid, stable mind -- > dissolves into a stream of cittas flashing in and out of being moment by > > moment, coming from nowhere and going nowhere, yet continuing in > sequence without pause". Bhikkhu Bodhi ] .... Metta, Sarah ======= 44510 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas sarahprocter... Hi Larry, (Nina, Tep, Kel, Suan, Ven Dhammanando & All), --- Larry wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for this note. It certainly complicates things quite a bit, in > my view. My take is that B. Bodhi is saying later commentarial views on > concept and reality are contrary to the concerns of the nikayas. How do > you see it? .... S:Let me try to summarise, bearing in mind that I don’t have access to the SN commentary which would be very useful. 1. Whereas ‘traditional Theravadins’ and some of us here see the entire Tipitaka and ancient commentaries to be in conformity, BB doesn’t necessarily at all. Usually when we ‘agree to disagree’ it is on this account, as in the conclusion on the Jhanas discussion. 2. BB believes that the ‘conception’ of the ayatanas in the Nikayas has ‘evolved’ and significantly been changed in the Abhidhamma. I don’t believe so, but I think we need to read and consider v. carefully and it’s very easy to misunderstand and I believe the commentaries are there to help us for this reason.. 3. BB suggests that whereas it’s true that dhammayatana only refers to paramattha dhamma (‘naturally existing phenomena that cannot include concepts’) in the Abhidhamma and commentaries but not in the Nikayas. I don’t agree. Terms and labels may be different, but the dhammas included, eg the cetasikas, are the same. 4. There is also a blurring of distinction between arammana (objects) and ayatana (sense fields) which seems to logically follow, but I don’t believe is correct and misses the important aspects of ayatanas. 5. BB gives reasons for what he sees as the differences in the commentaries and Abhidhamma and the Nikayas. He speculates that the suttas were ‘concerned primarily with....winning liberation’ whilst the commentators became more interested in theory, ‘from training to classification’. I think this is indicative of a lack of confidence in the true depth of the entire Tipitaka, especially those aspects we cannot understand or which are contrary to our beliefs. 6. BB mentions that in the Abhidhamma/commentaries ‘ayatana’becomes an ‘all-inclusive category’. Well yes, the same applies to the dhatus, khandhas, nama/rupa and all other classifications. It’s true that in the suttas, the emphasis is on what can be known and what is apparent in daily life rather than stressing on every detail known to the Buddha’s omniscient wisdom. For this reason, under ayatanas in the suttas, there’s unlikely to be much emphasis on subtle rupa and, bhavanga cittas, for example. This is true for most dhammas discussed. (I think BB’s point on the subtle rupas is valid in this regard). 7. My own comment is that I think we’re fortunate if we can respect the Ti-pitaka and have confidence that the ancient commentators understood the teachings better than we did and can be guided by them. The path is difficult enough without this assistance. I hope to get back on the points raised, but I would like to see any commentary notes first if possible, in case I’m barking up any wrong trees. Nina, Kel, Tep, Suan and anyone else – I’d be grateful for any assistance with this if you can access the Pali or Thai. I’d also like to hear any comments anyone else has to add. On ‘ayatanas’, as usual, there are some helpful posts in ‘U.P.’ Metta, Sarah ======= 44511 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:26am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 152 and Tiika. htootintnaing Dear Nina, Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu! A Great Joy. Thanks a lot. I have some points to discuss. Please see below. I leave all other un-used part of your post as moderators suggest. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina:"The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 152, Attention,manasikaara. Intro: Attention is a ³universal², it is among the seven ..snip.. As we have seen (Vis. Ch XIV, 133) attention is among the four cetasikas called Œor-whatever-dhammas¹ or supplementary factors (yevaapanaka). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What are the four cetasikas? I could not read above character of 'OEor-whatever-dhammas'. What is that? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: ..snip.. We read in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.a. p. 56): ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Is 'Co.' commentaries? Maybe I am negligent. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: ... snip ... Here the Vis. refers to the cittas that are called manasikaara. The manasikaara which is the sense-door advertingconsciousness is the first citta of a sense-door process, succeeding the bhavangacitta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Once in a certain message in a certain group, I wrote that there are 2 doors. The first door is pancadvara-avajjana-citta or 'sense-door-adverting consciousness'. Because it opens the door to the flow to enter the process. The 2nd door is votthapana citta or determining consciousness or manodvara-avajjana citta. That 2nd door opens to the flow so that the object is presented to the king(javana). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: All bhavanga-cittas experience the same object as the rebirth- consciousness, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I read this many times. But may I ask you a question? When the 2nd retention consciousness or 2nd tadaarammana citta passes away, where does the object come from for life-continuum consciousness or bhavanga citta? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: ..snip .. The manasikaara which is the mind-door adverting-consciousness is followed by javana cittas, which are kusala cittas or akusala cittas in the case of non-arahats. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: First I was confused. Now that I am clear, I have no more question on above sentence. At the first glance, I noted that 'manodvara-avajjana citta is wrongly mentioned as 'manasikara cetasika'. Now, I absorb that there are 3 manasikaara. One is cetasika and 2 are cittas. Both cittas are adverting consciousness. As they are adverting they do have to attend the object and yes, they are manasikaara. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: .. Thus, the cetasika manasikaara is called regulator of the object, ..snip .. snip .. For the development of vipassanaa, there also has to be right attention to the object that appears. When there is mindfulness of a naama or a ruupa, right attention conducts the citta and cetasikas to the present object. At that moment paññaa, right understanding, can further develop. ********* Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Nina for all your effort. PS: I do not think it is space- consuming to put '1 character for space after a 'fullstop' or a 'comma'. With deepest respect, Htoo Naing 44512 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas rjkjp1 -Dear Sarah, I have expressed my gratitude for venerable Bodhi's translations and his replies to dsg on several occasions. However it is unfortunate that he persists in expressing his doubts about the Theravada. His stature as the worlds leading Engish translator of the Pali means that his views are convincing to many. This can lead to Dhammantaraya. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Larry, (Nina, Tep, Kel, Suan, Ven Dhammanando & All), > > --- Larry wrote: > > > > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > Thanks for this note. It certainly complicates things quite a bit, in > > my view. My take is that B. Bodhi is saying later commentarial views on > > concept and reality are contrary to the concerns of the nikayas. How do > > you see it? > .... > S:Let me try to summarise, bearing in mind that I don't have access to the > SN commentary which would be very useful. > > 1. Whereas `traditional Theravadins?Eand some of us here see the entire > Tipitaka and ancient commentaries to be in conformity, BB doesn't > necessarily at all. Usually when we `agree to disagree?Eit is on this > account, as in the conclusion on the Jhanas discussion. > > 2. BB believes that the `conception?Eof the ayatanas in the Nikayas has > `evolved?Eand significantly been changed in the Abhidhamma. I don't > believe so, but I think we need to read and consider v. carefully and it's > very easy to misunderstand and I believe the commentaries are there to > help us for this reason.. > > 3. BB suggests that whereas it's true that dhammayatana only refers to > paramattha dhamma (`naturally existing phenomena that cannot include > concepts?E in the Abhidhamma and commentaries but not in the Nikayas. I > don't agree. Terms and labels may be different, but the dhammas included, > eg the cetasikas, are the same. > > 4. 44513 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:49am Subject: Dhamma Thread (331) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa 22. asannasatta, 21. vehapphala 20. subhakinhnaa, 19. appamaanasubhaa, 18. parittasubhaa 17. aabhassara, 16. appamaanaabhaa, 15. parittaabhaa 14. mahaabrahmaa, 13, brahmapurohitaa, 12. brahmaparisajjaa 11. paranimmita vassavatii deva realm 10. nimmanarati deva realm 9. tusitaa deva realm 8. yaamaa deva realm 7. taavatimsaa deva realm 6. catumaharaajika deva realm 5. manussa bhumi or human realm 4. asurakaaya bhumi or demaon realm 3. peta bhumi or ghost realm 2. tiracchaana bhumi or animal realm 1. niraya bhumi or hell realm The last 4 realms of 31 realms are called apaaya bhumis or 4 woeful realms. 6 deva realms and human realms are reborn with one of 8 mahavipaka cittas or one of 4 nana vippayutta mahavipaka cittas or sometimes beings are reborn with sugati ahetuka patisandhi citta called 'upekkha santirana citta of kusala origion. But all beings in any of above last 4 realms are reborn with 'upekkha saha gatam ahetuka akusalavipaka santirana citta'. a) Where do they come from? b) Where are they going when they die in 4 woeful realms? Answer to a) The beings in 4 apaaya bhumis or 4 woeful realms come from a) 6 deva bhumis b) 1 manussa bhumi or human realm c) 4 appaya bhumis d) reborn in the same realm except hell beings, ghosts, and demons Answer to b) The beings in 4 woeful realms will be reborn in a) the same realm in case of animals b) other apaaya bhumis c) human realm d) one of 6 deva realms These cannot be reborn in any or rupa brahma realms or arupa brahma realms as apaaya beings can never develop jhanas at all. But they may very very rarely have kusala and may be reborn in deva realms directly. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44514 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:54am Subject: Kamma and where it exists htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Kamma paccaya in the 24 conditional dhamma or 24 paccaya dhamma says something about kamma and its implications. There are 2 kinds of kamma- paccaya. They are sahajaata-kamma paccaya and naanakkhanika-kamma paccaya. Kamma is said to be 'the cetana which pushes the mind to commit an action'. This also comprises that 'the cetata that arises when an action is or was committed'. The cetana that arises and pushes the mind committing an action is sahajata-kamma. All the actions in the past did have cetanas when those actions were committed. The shade of that cetana cetasika always follow the current citta as long as citta arises. It is also kamma and such kamma is hard to be classified as realities. But they have always been there since actions were committed. Such kind of kamma is naanakkhanika kamma. Kamma do have the power to bring up their results. When the results are not given rise yet, kamma may wrongly be assumed as non-existing. But when the resulats are visibly coming, there is no way to escape. Is it fair 'to avoid what one did bad to other' by praying to someone who never exists? Can we stop kamma not to give their results? May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44515 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:00am Subject: RE: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (331) Evan_Stamato... This says it wonderfully... www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/allexistence.pdf -----Original Message----- From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of htootintnaing Sent: Monday, 18 April 2005 8:50 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (331) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. 31. nevasannaa-naasannaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 30. akincinnaa-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 29. vinnaananca-ayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 28. aakaasaanancaayatana arupa brahma bhuumi 27. akanitthaa, 26. sudassii, 25. sudassaa, 24. atappaa, 23. avihaa 22. asannasatta, 21. vehapphala 20. subhakinhnaa, 19. appamaanasubhaa, 18. parittasubhaa 17. aabhassara, 16. appamaanaabhaa, 15. parittaabhaa 14. mahaabrahmaa, 13, brahmapurohitaa, 12. brahmaparisajjaa 11. paranimmita vassavatii deva realm 10. nimmanarati deva realm 9. tusitaa deva realm 8. yaamaa deva realm 7. taavatimsaa deva realm 6. catumaharaajika deva realm 5. manussa bhumi or human realm 4. asurakaaya bhumi or demaon realm 3. peta bhumi or ghost realm 2. tiracchaana bhumi or animal realm 1. niraya bhumi or hell realm The last 4 realms of 31 realms are called apaaya bhumis or 4 woeful realms. 6 deva realms and human realms are reborn with one of 8 mahavipaka cittas or one of 4 nana vippayutta mahavipaka cittas or sometimes beings are reborn with sugati ahetuka patisandhi citta called 'upekkha santirana citta of kusala origion. But all beings in any of above last 4 realms are reborn with 'upekkha saha gatam ahetuka akusalavipaka santirana citta'. a) Where do they come from? b) Where are they going when they die in 4 woeful realms? Answer to a) The beings in 4 apaaya bhumis or 4 woeful realms come from a) 6 deva bhumis b) 1 manussa bhumi or human realm c) 4 appaya bhumis d) reborn in the same realm except hell beings, ghosts, and demons Answer to b) The beings in 4 woeful realms will be reborn in a) the same realm in case of animals b) other apaaya bhumis c) human realm d) one of 6 deva realms These cannot be reborn in any or rupa brahma realms or arupa brahma realms as apaaya beings can never develop jhanas at all. But they may very very rarely have kusala and may be reborn in deva realms directly. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44516 From: connie Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:27am Subject: Re: Lay people who heard Buddha & Awakened nichiconn Hi, Lisa, I'm afraid you've lost me, but I get that way when talk turns to jhana(s). As far as I was able to follow, though, I'm pretty excited because I'd love to add your eye teeth to my bone collection. ["We are in jhana all the time, I would bet my eye teeth in this!"] Is there jhana while we are fast asleep? Is there jhana at the moments of seeing, hearing, etc? How about when we're caught up in fear or other nastiness? peace, connie 44517 From: connie Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:13am Subject: Team Tep nichiconn Hi, Tep, Some excerpts from a few of the posts a "Mahanidana" search turns up: 12419: ...The aspect of anatta is also hard: As you know I've been considering Paticcasamuppada recently: in the Mahanidana sutta atthakatha it says that this is such a deep matter: "Its depth of penetration should be understood ..Deep is the meaning of consciousness as emptiness, abscence of an agent.." The tika continues: "Consciousness's meaning of emptiness is deep because consciousness is said to be the distinctive basis for the misapprehension of self. As it is said "for a long time the uninstructed worldling has been attached to this, appropriated it, and misapprehended it thus; 'This is mine this I am , this is self'"(samyutta XII 61 ii94)(bodhi p66) 14917: ...Here is a section from the Mahanidana sutta commentary, where aayuhana (accumulate) occurs in complex phrases. (from bodhi The great discourse on causationp65)about Paticcasamupadda: Deep is the meaning of volitional formations as volitionally forming, ACCUMULATING, lustfulness, and lustlessness. gambhiiro, sa"nkhaaraana.m abhisa"nkhara.nAAYUUHANAsaraagaviraaga.t.tho and [the meaning] of existence as ACCUMULATING, volitionally forming, and throwing beings into the different modes of origin bhavassa aayuuhanaabhisa"nkhara.nayo nigati.thitinivaasesu khipana.t.tho, 31644: ...Hopefully as wisdom grows, it will see the futility of the road to the goblin city for what it is;-) Some other "Mahanidana" search results you might like to see: 19499, 21601, 27710, 31644. peace, connie 44518 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas abhidhammika Dear Sarah, Chris, Nina, Robert K, Mike and all How are you? I will get back to you later on this issue. For now, I will give a brief remark on Sarah's Point 5. "5. BB gives reasons for what he sees as the differences in the commentaries and Abhidhamma and the Nikayas. He speculates that the suttas were `concerned primarily with....winning liberation' whilst the commentators became more interested in theory, `from training to classification'. I think this is indicative of a lack of confidence in the true depth of the entire Tipitaka, especially those aspects we cannot understand or which are contrary to our beliefs. My daily reading and observation of Suttas, Abhidhamma and commentaries do not allow me to accept BB's above speculation. All three groups of Pali texts are 'primarily and prepondrantly concerned with winning liberation'. BB's statement "the commentators became more interested in theory, `from training to classification'" is contrary to my reading and findings. In some Suttas, the Buddha may describe certain terms such as cittam only in general. In such cases, we are fortunate to discover that the commentaries make effort to describe those general terms in operational definitions. Operational definitions in modern science textbooks are what allow and enable scientists to carry out their experiments. Because of the Pali commentaries' unfailing attempts to offer us operational defintions of general vague terms in Suttas, I even dare to say that Pali commentaries serve as prototypes of science literature. In short, Pali commentaries not only explain theoretical aspects, but also facilitate practice and training. With regards, Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Larry, (Nina, Tep, Kel, Suan, Ven Dhammanando & All), --- Larry wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for this note. It certainly complicates things quite a bit, in > my view. My take is that B. Bodhi is saying later commentarial views on > concept and reality are contrary to the concerns of the nikayas. How do > you see it? .... S:Let me try to summarise, bearing in mind that I don't have access to the SN commentary which would be very useful. 1. Whereas `traditional Theravadins' and some of us here see the entire Tipitaka and ancient commentaries to be in conformity, BB doesn't necessarily at all. Usually when we `agree to disagree' it is on this account, as in the conclusion on the Jhanas discussion. On `ayatanas', as usual, there are some helpful posts in `U.P.' Metta, Sarah ======= 44519 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:50am Subject: Re: Phil's letter from Japan buddhatrue Hi Phil, Glad to see you back. Hope you enjoy your new place. Actually, at the end of this summer I will be moving to a new place in Cairo, a nicer place, so I am looking forward to that. One would think I would get out of Cairo, as much as I dislike it, but the pay is good and I have made some friends now. So, I'll guess I'll stick it out one more year at least. Hope your teaching is going well. You write: Phil: I often think of things my friend James has said to me in the past. They tend to stick in my mind for some reason, perhaps because they go against the grain. James: I don't know if I "go against the grain" that much (maybe it just seems so in this group), I just seem to write thought provoking things and people seem to like my writing- maybe that is why many of the things I write stick in your mind? To digress (which I like to do with you), I remember when I was building web sites for a living and I was about to go to Thailand to become a monk, I went to a client's house in another city to help her understand a web site I built for her- and how to update it when I had gone away. The funny thing is that this woman sold erotic candy through her web site; I don't even want to describe the types of things I had to look at for hours at a time! LOL! Well, I had my own Yahoo Buddhist group at that time where I posted various Buddhist writings, and this client was a member of my group. When I went to her house on this one occasion, I noticed that next to her printer she had a stack of some of my writings from the Buddhist group. I was very surprised and asked her why she printed some of the posts and she told me that she wanted the hard copies because she liked to read them over and over again. Now, here is a woman who makes erotic candy for a living, isn't a Buddhist, and finds my writing about Buddhism so interesting she wants to read them again and again. It was at that moment I knew there must be something to my writing. Later, the chief editor of the Buddhist Publication Society (the new one, not B.B.) wanted to publish some of these writings in their newsletter.* So, it may just be my writing that affects you, not any "going against the grain". BTW Phil, I hope your book writing at your new location is going well. Phil: Well, I do read suttas (still concentrating on khandasamyutta and salayatanasamyutta) but I must admit I am now more drawn to Abhidhamma study. James: Okay, here are some publications you might enjoy reading: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhistudy.pdf http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhaultsci.pdf I have been reading quite a few of buddhanet's e-books but I haven't read these yet. I hope to get around to them someday. Anyway, hope you don't stay away from the group for so long again. Your presence and interesting posts are a pleasure to both sides of the dividing line. Metta, James * However, not everyone likes my writing or my ideas. A minor publisher wrote to me that my writing was pure drivel and that I shouldn't attempt to write anything again until I was a monk for at least 10 years! So, I guess the saying's true, you can't please everyone! ;-) 44520 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:52am Subject: Re:thinking processes/ Mahaanidaana Sutta - Tep buddhistmedi... Hi James - I fully agree with your comment : "This group is so busy that, if you let it, it can suck your life away". The team that manages the U.P. system is doing a great job -- the team members must have spent a big chunk of their time maintaining it. Sincerely, Tep ---------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > Sarah: James (or anyone else) - why not consider opening a file with > your own alternative set of 'James's U.P.' (or any other name)in > whatever format you like? > > James: This is kind of you to offer, and demonstrates a clear sense > of openness that I appreciate (things are getting better), but I > don't know if this would be such a good idea. I don't want to put > myself into that much of an adversarial role (you may not see it > that way, but I'm sure others would). I could just name it "Even > More Useful Posts"! ;-)). Not only that, it would be difficult for > me to determine the posts which would make the cut: many, many posts > are useful for different people at different times. I would > probably end up picking posts because they were well-written, and > that isn't always the best criteria. Not only that, it would take a > lot of my time because I would have to read each of the posts, and > that would take away from my other dhamma activities. This group is > so busy that, if you let it, it can suck your life away. So, > anyway, thanks for the offer but I think I will pass. However, > since you have made this suggestion, you won't find me saying > another negative comment about your U.P. again, ever. > > Metta, > James 44522 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas buddhistmedi... Hi RobertK - Ven. Bodhi's inclination to take some ancient commentaries not seriously should not disappoint us. I don't think he has rejected all commentaries as useless. Whatever he disagrees with, he gives a clear reasoning as to why he doesn't like it -- this indicates the strong confidence he has in his intelligence. Well, we too have our good intelligence and inclination to choose what we want to believe! Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > -Dear Sarah, > I have expressed my gratitude for venerable Bodhi's translations and > his replies to dsg on several occasions. However it is unfortunate > that he persists in expressing his doubts about the Theravada. His > stature as the worlds leading Engish translator of the Pali means > that his views are convincing to many. This can lead to > Dhammantaraya. > Robertk 44523 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results nilovg Dear Tep, very good remarks and they invite to considering more. I have a try. op 16-04-2005 19:28 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > > II. Sarah's Controversial Points > -------------------------------------------- > > 1. Whether we are in front of the computer, at work, the theatre, in a > quiet place or even seemingly `being busy doing nothing', there can > be awareness with right effort at such times. > > 2. If there's any attempt to make restrictions or impose limits, it will lead > to trouble because of the idea of self. We should feel encouraged > rather than discouraged that there are no limits to when sati > (awareness) and panna (understanding) can arise. > > 3. The `I' thinks it seems right when we set aside particular times or > activities, but really we're enslaved to lobha (attachment) which wishes > for particular results. > > 4. It is this same attachment to self and results which may lead > to `feeling low' or `alone' or discouraged. At such times we don't wish to > see the problem as being a `clinging to self' and even less to see > the `silabbataparamasa' (adherence to rites and rituals) when there is > lobha trying to do something different. > > A Reminder : > ------------------ > Are the maintenance, preservation, increase of skilled states wrong > because "because `I' is there all the time, trying do something in order > to control what arises"? ---------------- Nina: There is nothing wrong so long as we remember that it is right effort, accompanying right understanding that do the maintenance, preservation, increase of skilled states. We have to listen again and again in order to really understand that it is a conditioned dhamma, not self. > Tep's Response to Sarah's Points > -------------------------------------------------- > > I.1 We must be quite advanced in the practice to be able to be aware > and know our mental states "at any time": this ability requires both > mindfulness(sati) and thorough comprehension(sampajanna). You > have to be an Ariya-puggala. ----------------- Nina: also an ariya puggala had to begin at one point in time. At any time: this does not mean all the time. At any time: also when we are sad and discouraged or have to experience unpleasant objects. We should not chose a particular time, then there is the idea of self and that obstructs. -------------- Tep: I.2 Not only awareness but also knowing the "All" (sabba dhamma) the > way they really are (yatabhuta-dassana). Then we will realize > that 'this is not mine, this is not I, this is not my atta'. [MN 149] ------------ N: It begins with intellectual understanding and considering whatever reality appears in our life. The yatabhuta-dassana is a result of vipassana ñaana that develops in stages. It cannot arise in the beginning. --------------- T: I.3 True. When we can watch and know all dhammas as 'just > dhammas' with no 'self' involved, then it is yathabhuta-nana-dassana. It > is also samma-ditthi, ------------- N: We learn gradually that whatever appears is just a dhamma, but there is not yet samma-ditthi in the beginning. ------------- T: .... But we have to be noble disciples first. ------- N: sati and paññaa can begin. If we think,we have to be noble disciples first, we put off the development of understanding. T: I.4 With yathabhuta-nana-dassana you don't have to fight lobha -- > because lobha has been abandoned. ---------- N: The sotaapanna sees realities as they are, but he still has lobha. He has eradicated wrong view. ----------- T: "However, knowing & seeing the eye as it actually is present, knowing > & seeing forms... one is not infatuated with > the eye... forms... [MN 149] ---------- N: True, one can become less infatuated, but only the anagami has eradicated attachment to sense objects. ------------- T: II.1 For a worldling (puthujjana) like you and I, when we are in a quiet > place, busily doing nothing, our minds just wander. There is little > awareness and little discernment, our minds simply follow objects > (armamanas) through the sense doors. We can easily become > sleepy! But if we are Ariya-puggalas, then we are able to overcome > hindrances and what you were talking about is true. ----------------- N: There is a process of development and this takes time; pañña can grow little by little. Beginning with intellectual understanding and considering different dhammas that appear, as we can do right now while considering what we are talking about. Sleepiness: it is real, it is nama, and it can be understood as a conditioned dhamma. Is it possible to begin now instead of thinking of the end result which is far away? What do you think? ---------- T: II.2 "Restrictions and imposed limits" are for the purpose of restraining > the sensing faculties in order to perfect the indriya-samvara-sila. > "Whenever the monk perceives a form with the eye, a sound with the > ear, an odour with the nose, a taste with the tongue, an impression with > the body, an object with the mind, he neither adheres to the > appearance as a whole, nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that > through which evil and unwholesome things, greed and sorrow, would > arise, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his > senses, restrains his senses" (MN 38). ---------- N: Exactly, there are no limits. The objects of awareness are all the objects appearing through the six doors as we read in the sutta quoted above. ---------------- T: Also, please study the following sutta (AN X.60). Is this sutta > wrong "because `I' is there all the time, trying do something in order to > control what arises"? > > "There is the case where a monk does not tolerate an arisen thought of > sensuality. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of > existence. ..... N: This is done with vipassana ñaana that has been developed to pahaana pariñña (clear comprehension of the degree of abandoning). There is no self doing it. ------------- T: II.3 Remember what the Buddha told his monks to sleep only 4 hours a > night and dedcicate themselves to medition the rest of the night? > > "And how is the disciple of the noble ones devoted to wakefulness? ----------- N: This is for the monks but it can be applied with moderation by laypeople. This is not in order to control, but there can be conditions that one is less attached to sleeping. It depends on the individual. There is no rule that one has to. ----------- T: II.4 You dont feel "low", or "discouraged, or sad, if you follow the four > foundations of mindfulness practices of the Satipatthana Sutta. You > would put aside greed and distress with reference to the world. You > would achieve samma-ditthi. You would overcome hindrances! ------ N: The world is the five khandhas, the Co explains. What you mention is the result of the development of pañña. It is human to feel low, but this can be realized as only thinking about oneself. One clings. Understanding this helps already. **** Nina. 44524 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] vancaka dhammas nilovg Dear Connie, perfect. Thank you very much, Nina. op 18-04-2005 08:42 schreef connie op connieparker@...: > They're listed in UP's: > > Cheating (vancaka) Dhammas > 3543, 3544, 3545, 10517 44525 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. nilovg Hi Matheesha, I really do not know what to answer. Let each person find out for himself what is true and genuine and what not. Nina. op 18-04-2005 02:38 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > I know of a place in Sri Lanka, a meditation centre. They train in > Jhana and Vipassana. I have seen that quite a few people can achieve > the 4 jhanas through intense practice within 2 weeks. 44526 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:10am Subject: Dhamma Thread (332) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Thread starts with discussion on ralities that we can test ourselves. These realities are ultimate ones. Nothing is more right than these ultimate realities. They are 1. consciousness or mind or citta 2. mental accompaniment or mental factors or cetasika 3. material or matter or physical things or easy-to-seen-thing or rupa 4. absolute peace or ultimate calmness or liberation or nibbana Each dhamma has been thoroughly discussed in many of Dhamma Thread posts. Citta cannot arise alone. Citta is always accompanied by a number of cetasikas. At least 7 cetasikas accompay a citta as in the case of panca-vinnana citta or 5-sense-consciousness or 'mind or mental state when one of 5 senses is directly experienced'. These 7 universal mental factors or universal cetasikas are 1. contact or phassa 2. feeling or vedana 3. volition or cetana 4. perception or sanna 5. one-pointedness or ekaggata 6. mental life or jivitindriya 7. attention or manasikara This means that when sight is directly seen by eye or when sound is directly heard by ear or when smell is directly smelled by nose or when taste is directly tasted by tongue or when touch-object is directly touched by body there are 1. contact which introduces sight and eye or sound and ear or smell and nose or taste and tongue or touch-object and body ( phu + assa ) 2. feeling of indifferent feeling that is not good or not bad in case of the first 4 senses. Or feeling of pleasant feeling in case of body-consciousness or kaayavinnana citta of kusalavipaka citta. Or feeling of unpleasant feeling in case of body-consciousness or kaayavinnana citta of akusalavipaka citta. (veda + naa ) 3. volition which urges citta to become consciousness, contact to introduce the object with citta and other accompaniments, feeling to feel the object, perception to perceive the object, one-pointedbess to go to (gata) one object( Eka), mental life to support citta and other mental factors, attention to attend the object. ( ceto + tana ) 4. perception which perceives the object (sa + anna) 5. one-pointedness to go to just one and only one object ( eka + ggata) 6. mental life which supports with life to citta and other 6 cetasikas (jivi.m + atta + indriya) 7. attention which attends the object ( mana + si + kaara ) Because of these accompanying cetasikas, citta has different names. Again citta has to depend on rupa in different ways and rupa have been discussed to some extent. Citta has different functions and this will depend on which cetasikas arise together with citta. Because of these different functions of citta, cittas seem to be a single block and is assumed as atta. This apparent body deludes us that there are beings. These beings and they cittas have been currently discussed. 4 bhumis or 4 realms, 4 patisandhi or 4 rebirths, and 4 causes of death have all been discussed in the recent posts on Dhamma Thread. There are kamma. Kamma are hard to sense as they are not like entities even though they are entities. That is kamma is not citta, not cetasika, not rupa, not nibbana. Some may argue that kamma is a mental factor. This may be right just for some point of view and this will not be true for all kamma. Kamma are being discussed in the coming posts on Dhamma Thread. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44527 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas nilovg Dear Sarah, I have the Co in Thai as well as in Pali of SN 35:24 Abandonment. For the English I only have PTS. I do not translate word by word. I hope to get back on the points raised, but I would like to see any > commentary notes first if possible, 44528 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 152 and Tiika. nilovg Dear Htoo, op 18-04-2005 12:26 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > > As we have seen (Vis. Ch XIV, 133) attention is among the four > cetasikas called Œor-whatever-dhammas¹ or supplementary > factors > (yevaapanaka). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: What are the four cetasikas? I could not read above character of > 'Or-whatever-dhammas'. What is that? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Nina:Vis. Ch XIV, 133 Note 59. Yevaapanaka (ye-vaa-pana-ka) is commentarial shorthand derived from the Dhammasa"nga.nii phrase (ye-vaa-pana- tasmi"m samaye a~n~ne pi atti pa.ticca-samuppannaa aruupino dhammaa'--'Or whatever other immaterial conditionally-arisen states (phenomena) there are too on that occasion' (Dhs. 1) N: The list of the Dhammasangani is not exhaustive. This means, not all cetasikas are mentioned by name. There are four cetasikas called Œor-whatever-dhammas¹ or supplementary factors. These are: zeal (chanda), resolution (adhimokkha), attention (manasikaara), evenmindedness (tatramajjhattata). These are mentioned in the Anupada sutta (M. N. no 111). The Expositor (p. 174, 175) deals with these, but includes also the five cetasikas which do not arise with every kusala citta, (aniyata, inconstant) thus it classifies the supplementary factors as ninefold. The five inconstant are these: (xxxii) compassion, (xxxiii) gladness, (xxxiv) abstinence from bodily misconduct, (xxxv) abstinence from verbal misconduct, (xxxvi) abstinence from wrong livelihood. These last arise sometimes [but not always], and when they arise they do not do so together. ----------------------- > Htoo: We read in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.a. p. 56): > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Is 'Co.' commentaries? Maybe I am negligent. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Nina: yes. I refer to the English translation by Wijjeratne and Gethin. They translated the Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii, you have in Burmese. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Nina: All bhavanga-cittas experience the same object as the rebirth- > consciousness, > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I read this many times. But may I ask you a question? > > When the 2nd retention consciousness or 2nd tadaarammana citta passes > away, where does the object come from for life-continuum > consciousness or bhavanga citta? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Nina: The same object as the rebirth-consciousness. ------------ Nina. 44529 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 0:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Matheesha, just butting in. op 17-04-2005 19:54 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > Hi Geoff, > Could you explain what you mean that jhana is impossible without > developing panna. I have read similar statements in the suttas but > found it rather cryptic. Is what you mean by panna, knowing the object > of meditation very well here rather than seeing thilakkana or arising > and passing away? ---------------- N: Paññaa and strong mindfulness are necessary. The Yogavacara should not just in theory know about kusala citta and akusala citta (with the hindrances), but there must be direct knowledge of the different cittas when they arise. Paññaa should know the sobhana cetasikas that are the jhanafactors and the akusala cetasikas that are the hindrances. Paññaa in samatha does not realize the tilakkhana, but it must have a precise, direct knowledge of cittas and cetasikas that arise. Otherwise calm, which is temporary freedom from defielements, cannot be developed. How could there be freedom from the hindrances if it is not known what they are and when they arise? ----------- M: I dont think I have come across any differentiation between > supramundane jhana and mundane jhana in the suttas. Any ideas about > this? ------------ N: Lokuttara jhanacittas experience nibbaana. Sometimes right concentration of the eightfold Path is defined as the jhanas. The supramundane Path has right concentration that is supramundane. I cannot hand you sutta texts here. Nina. 44530 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 0:59pm Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Jon and Matheesha, J: if I have understood you correctly, you take the view that those same disciples must have attained mundane jhana (even though there is no indication of this in the suttas in question either), and I think you see this as a matter of doctrine. I'd be interested to know the passages that proclaim this doctrine ------- I see this, not as a matter of doctrine (I view the path as being functional and not fundamentalist), but as a matter of pragmatism, based on my own experience (not that I'm claiming any supramundane paths/fruitions), and the experience of highly realized teachers such as Ajahn Chah, as I interpret what they`re teaching. IMO the three lower paths/fruitions are not a one shot affair, after which there's no possibility of regression even if one undergoes no further bhavana. Such a view is overly idealistic and doesn't take into account the complexity of the conditioned mind or human behavior. Jhana, which is nothing more than an uplifted, concentrated mind, is experientially necessary to attain (and also to maintain once attained) the three lower paths/fruitions, without backsliding into discursive restlessness and reification of conditioned phenomena, and other hindrances/negative emotions (kilesa). But again, what I mean by jhana is *not* a state devoid of sensory form perception. Such a state is in no way necessary for anything. The notion of Ajahn Brahmavamso that such a state is necessary is based on applying the commentarial definition of jhana onto sutta statements such as AN IX.36: "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said." (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) And this is precisely the problem with the commentarial definition of jhana. It fails to account for statements such as this (there are others, see Dhammapada XXV, verse 372, for example), which say that there is no panna w/o jhana and no jhana w/o panna. Certainly these statements aren't referring to the jhanic state defined in the commentaries wherein there can be no panna. But while jhana as I understand it, and as defined in the suttas, is not a state devoid of sensory perception, it is a state that is more conditionally developed (refined) than what is often taught by `dry insight' teachers, i.e. choiceless awareness with no effort to steady and unify the mind with a particular object. And as anyone who has practiced in a monastic or retreat environment for an extended period of time will attest, such choiceless awareness without developing the jhana factor of calm abiding is not merely unskillful, it's downright unpleasant. This, I believe, is why some people notice that they have less patience and are more easily agitated after a ten day 'dry vipassana' retreat than they were before the retreat. Surely retreat practice should make one less agitated and not more so. But if the retreatant just sits there, observing whatever arises without any skillful employment of mental unification and the pleasant and tranquil experience such mental unification engenders, then a retreat can be more like torture than meditation. And this, ultimately, is why misinterpreting jhana and then developing a path of dry insight is unskillful and will probably never lead to any stable ongoing experiential discernment (panna). The Buddha, through trial and error, realized for himself that the eightfold path must fully integrate ethical conduct (sila), meditation (samadhi which is jhana), and discernment (panna) for it to be optimally efficacious. Without all three it just doesn't work. J: is it the fact that samma-samadhi of the Noble Eightfold Path is defined in terms of the 4 jhanas, or are there other specific passages also? --------- Yes, it seems clear to me that jhana in the sutta sense, is an essential path factor for all of the above mentioned reasons (and probably many more). The path is a very subtle integration of sila, samadhi, and panna. J: what would you see as being the development of vipassana/panna as one is reading this post or composing a reply; or what passages from the texts do you see as addressing this occasion/situation? --------------- Aniccanupassana would be a good place to start :-)). I don't think there's much disagreement here (although I don't think clear seeing, i.e. vipassana, of 17 cittas per rupa, etc., is necessary for panna -- and could quite possibly be another merely theoretical notion of the commentators). J: The idea of the so-called 'jhana factors' as being the *object* of jhana is one I have not come across before. Where exactly do you find this stated in the texts, and is it said what happens to the object that was the object of samatha bhavana up to the time of jhana consciousness arising (e.g., the kasina, the reflection, or whatever)? --------------- That piti and sukha are the focus of jhana seems to me the implicit injunction of AN V.28/MN 77, which to my knowledge is the most graphic image/simile regarding jhana expressed in the suttas (if anyone is aware of others I`d very much like to read them). As to the efficacy of taking piti and sukha as object, this is borne out by experience. As for what happens to the object of samatha, this I don't think is definitively expressed in the suttas. But it's clear that the form object is no longer the main focus of attention as AN IX.34 states "If, as he remains there, he is beset with attention to perceptions dealing with sensuality, that is an affliction for him." Again, I don't see it stating that perception of form must cease, rather attention to perception of form must cease. There is a subtle but definite distinction here. And I would suggest, again based on experience, that once jhana is established and steadied, one can then return to contemplation of any of the five aggregates as stated in AN IX.36. This is the only explanation for the statements in the suttas that there can be no panna w/o jhana. M: Could you explain what you mean that jhana is impossible without developing panna. -------------- You are asking the flipside of the this/that conditional relationship between jhana and panna. Yes, it is stated in the suttas that there can be no jhana w/o panna (Dmp XXV.372). This shows just how subtly interconnected all the path factors of the eightfold path are. This is borne out by experience, and its very difficult to fully explain just how integral the eightfold path is, and just how unskillful/unproductive it is to attempt to sever the eighth limb of the path (or radically redefine it in terms that bear little resemblance to the suttas). But it's (one of the) purpose(s) of panna to engender renunciation. Renunciation is necessary for jhana. Jhana is necessary for deeper panna. Deeper panna engenders deeper renunciation. Deeper renunciation makes jhana more effortless. More effortless jhana makes panna more stable and naturally present. Etc., etc.. This is just how it works. All path factors condition all other path factors. M: I dont think I have come across any differentiation between supramundane jhana and mundane jhana in the suttas. Any ideas about this? ------------- I would suggest that this is the full implication of AN IX.36: "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. ***He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'***" (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) Inclining toward the deathless is IMO precisely the lokuttara path whereby one clearly discerns the futility of all conditioned states of mind and comes to rest in the unconditioned. Ajahn Buddhadasa was brilliant to recognize that this is the attitude of nonfashioning (atammayata), stated in the suttas: "[R]elying on non-fashioning, abandon & transcend the equanimity coming from singleness, dependent on singleness [i.e. conditioned jhana]. Such is its abandoning, such its transcending." MN 137 (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) "One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" -- MN 140 (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) The fruitional mental attitude of nonfashioning is now being taught by Ajahn Amaro, Ajahn Thanissaro, and other forest monk teachers. But if we're going to talk about lokuttara jhana we have to understand that this is an unconditioned state of consciousness based on highly efficacious and radically nondual panna. This is IMO (as far as I understand the commentarial position to be rigidly dualistic) where Dhamma and the commentarial position part ways. We could talk more about this once we get through this jhana discussion. Metta, Geoff 44531 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 1:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas buddhatrue Hi Robert K. and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > -Dear Sarah, > I have expressed my gratitude for venerable Bodhi's translations and > his replies to dsg on several occasions. However it is unfortunate > that he persists in expressing his doubts about the Theravada. His > stature as the worlds leading Engish translator of the Pali means > that his views are convincing to many. This can lead to > Dhammantaraya. > Robertk It won't lead to Dhammantaraya if it is true; which I believe it is. I am quite happy that B. Bodhi voiced these doubts so strongly and openly to this group. B. Bodhi is an expert and what he has to say should be taken very seriously. Really, this isn't a matter of who is more enlightened than whom; this is simply a matter of literary analysis. B. Bodhi has painstanking translated hundreds of suttas, checked and cross-checked among various translations, and he is a bhikkhu of the highest regard- and here you are suggesting that he has committed a danger to the dhamma for telling the truth about his findings! Think about it. What I openly wonder about is if B.B. voiced these objections to some of the commentaries while he was still with the Buddhist Publication Society, or did he wait until he left his position? I don't have the whole picture, but I think he waited until he left his position. This says something about the politics and the pressures present in the Theravada Sangha. Metta, James 44532 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:00pm Subject: Jhana / Vipassana - What the Buddha taught Evan_Stamato... Anguttara Nikaya IV.94 Samadhi Sutta Concentration (Tranquillity and Insight) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. "Monks, these four types of individuals are to be found existing in world. Which four? "There is the case of the individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness. Then there is the case of the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. And then there is the case of the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. "The individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, should approach an individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment and ask him: 'How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. "As for the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, he should approach an individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way. Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. "As for the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, his duty is to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) fermentations. "These are four types of individuals to be found existing in world." Revised: Saturday 2005.01.29 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-094.html 44533 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. sunnaloka Hi Nina, N: As I said to Howard, all I know is from reading scriptures, Vis. and Co. ------------- I hope you can now begin to appreciate that the commentarial definition of jhana doesn't fully account for sutta statements such as Dhammapada XXV.372: There's no jhana for one with no discernment [panna], no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding. (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) If the commentarial definition of jhana is the only definition of jhana then all who endeavor to develop panna must necessarily attain the state devoid of sensory form perception. IMO this notion has no scriptural foundation. IMO accepting commentarial positions without questioning them or connecting them to one's own experience isn't very useful. If it works for you, so be it. But with all due respect, and I mean this sincerely (recognizing that you are one of the main contributors to this group and probably one of the founders), do you not think it rather disingenuous to teach the commentarial position regarding jhana as being scripturally factual and beyond error without having practiced and attained for oneself what they promote as jhana? Because it seems to me that if one hasn't done so, one is just a mere theoretical buddhologist, and should clearly indicate when discussing meditation (samadhi/jhana) and discernment (panna), that one doesn't know from experience what one is talking about. I mean this respectfully and sincerely with a nonaggressive attitude. N: I am amazed at your endurance. How could you hold out? How could others hold out? ------------- I think you may be misunderstanding what I meant: sitting for 8 1/2 hours but alternating 50 min. sittings with 10 min. walking, etc. :-)). But I did meet a Chinese monk once who could sit for over 6 hours at a time (full lotus). He was ordained in Master Hsuan Hua's lineage. Many of these monks also follow the austerity of never lying down. They ?sleep? about 3 1/2 hour per night in full lotus position. Also, the monastery where I stayed has an adjoining 3 yr. retreat facility where the retreatants are to remain upright in their meditation boxes all night, to develop dream yoga (lucid dreaming) as a prelude to attaining fully conscious deep sleep. N: You must be motivated to cultivate jhana. What benefit do you seek from it, do you find it helpful? --------------- As already explained in prior posts, I see jhana as an integral part of the path. Didn't the Buddha tell us to practice as if our heads were on fire? N: Lobha always plays us tricks, and it comes in disguise! ---------------------- Yes samsara is relentless. N: That is what also matters to me: pragmatic every day realism. I know your intentions: just stimulating discussion. ----------------- I'm glad you understand my intentions, and that you also value pragmatic Dhamma. I would suggest that the Thai (and Western) forest masters/teachers have the same pragmatic values, and what started with Ajahn Buddhadasa's interpretation of the Sutta Pitaka is now being continued by teachers like Ajahn Thanissaro and Ajahn Amaro, who seem to be reclaiming the suttas from the theoretical and idealistic interpretation of the ancient commentators, and giving the suttas back to sincere contemplatives who wish to practice the Dhamma the way the Buddha and early disciples practiced. It worked for them and could work for us if we let go of our theoretically fabricated baggage, take up the suttas, and put the injunctions to practice. Metta, Geoff 44534 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:39pm Subject: Re: Jhana / Vipassana - What the Buddha taught sunnaloka Hi Evan, I didn't go to the trouble of looking up the romanized Pali version of AN IV.94, but based on Ajahn Thanissaro's usual translation of terms, what he has here as 'tranquility' is most likely samatha, and not jhana. This is also indicated in the Access to Insight synopsis of the Anguttara Nikaya, which states for this sutta: "The Buddha explains how correct meditation practice consists of the development of both insight (vipassana) and tranquillity (samatha)." I'm not sure who writes these sutta contexts -- Ajahn Thanissaro or the Access to Insight webmaster, but the text in question is most likely talking about samatha and vipassana -- both of which are mental factors for attainment of jhana (IMO). As for the role of vipassana, please see 'One Tool Among Many: The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice,' by Ajahn Thanissaro: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/onetool.html And so what you name this post: Jhana/Vipassana - What the Buddha Taught, should actually be: Samatha/Vipassana - What the Buddha Taught. Metta, Geoff 44535 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:02pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana / Vipassana - What the Buddha taught Evan_Stamato... Geoff, From the Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi translation "Numerical Discourses of the Buddha" anthology, note 46 states: AA explains internal tranquillity of mind (ajjhattam cetosamatha) as the concentration of full mental absorption (i.e. jhana), ... Kind Regards, Evan Hi Evan, I didn't go to the trouble of looking up the romanized Pali version of AN IV.94, but based on Ajahn Thanissaro's usual translation of terms, what he has here as 'tranquility' is most likely samatha, and not jhana. This is also indicated in the Access to Insight synopsis of the Anguttara Nikaya, which states for this sutta: "The Buddha explains how correct meditation practice consists of the development of both insight (vipassana) and tranquillity (samatha)." I'm not sure who writes these sutta contexts -- Ajahn Thanissaro or the Access to Insight webmaster, but the text in question is most likely talking about samatha and vipassana -- both of which are mental factors for attainment of jhana (IMO). As for the role of vipassana, please see 'One Tool Among Many: The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice,' by Ajahn Thanissaro: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/onetool.html And so what you name this post: Jhana/Vipassana - What the Buddha Taught, should actually be: Samatha/Vipassana - What the Buddha Taught. Metta, Geoff 44536 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings and salutations foamflowers Hi Sarah, You can call me Lisa H., thank you for the lovely welcome and I live in the United States, in the state of Illinois in the city of Chicago right near the lake over by the Gold Coast area. I have a lovely library that includes ===> The Connected Discourses of the Buddha (Hardcover) by Bhikkhu Bodhi, Bodhi (Editor) The Long Discourses of the Buddha : A Translation of the Digha Nikaya (Teachings of the Buddha) (Hardcover)by Maurice Walshe The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: A Translation of the Majjhima Nikaya (Teachings of the Buddha) (Hardcover) by Bhikkhu Nanamoli I am a book worm and actually do know a bit of Pali and I will pick up books that address the areas I'm working on in meditation. I will research words that I don't understand so I can put the words into the context of the sentence and the passage in which it is used. I understand that pali and sanskrit words have many meanings and change depending on how they are used in a sentence. That makes the research even more interesting because reading the doctrine also depends on ones own insight and wisdom. To really understand the message of sutra you have to actually be there and experience it to get the full meaning. Do you have an area on the board where you place meditation practices? I have written mine down and I wondered if anyone else had written their personal practice down and posted it on the board. It would be nice to have feed back on what is going right and what could be corrected by those wise in the ways of anapansati and vipassana meditation. With Metta, Lisa H. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Lisa (M?),(Chris & Evan in passing) > > Many thanks for your great intro about your background in Dhamma and for > the quotes at the end. I'm sure others will be very interested in it too. > > I hope you enjoy your time and find it useful here on DSG. Please join in > any threads or start your own anytime. <...> 44537 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:35pm Subject: Re: Lay people who heard Buddha & Awakened sunnaloka Hi Lisa, I like your exuberance, and also your clearly experiential discernment (panna) that words are only ever mere words, and no word or conceptual grouping of words can ever transcend relative truth. Once I was at a week long teaching by Ven. Thrangu Rinpoche (who is a Geshe -- i.e. a highly educated scholar -- as well as yogi). The teaching was on a very fruitional Mahamudra meditation manual titled 'Clarifying the Natural State,' and during a question period after a teaching session, a very sincere Western monk asked Rinpoche: "What is rigpa?" Now rigpa, for those unfamiliar with Tibetan, is the translation of the Sanskrit 'vidya' which is 'vijja' in Pali, and this term plays a key role in both Dzogchen and Mahamudra practice, as it is considered to be one's innate transcendent (unconditioned) awareness, the recognition of which is the basis, the path, and the fruition of practice. But at this particular moment, when asked, "What is rigpa?", Rinpoche answered: "A word." And of course this was followed by one of Rinpoche's characteristic ear to ear grins, which qualified his answer for anyone who understood just what 'rigpa' is. And so we should never let words or concepts veil our immediate experience. If we just blindly attempt to interpret our experience based on some theoretical 'belief set' then we are never going to transcend the madness of samsara. You seem to understand this very well. > I think jhana is the subtle conscious which is always there and most > people just aren't aware of it. When jhana is a verb its the method > and my teacher told me to watch out and not get attached to the > method. > > When Jhana is used as a noun it is the subtle consciousness or as > some of my friends call it, "The Super Consciousness", said in a deep > voice that echos as it fades away. We are in jhana all the time, I > would bet my eye teeth in this! Now I agree that we are 'in' our innate consciousness all the time, and from a Sutta Pitaka perspective, this is termed either clear knowing (vijja), or featureless consciousness (vinnana anidassana), or luminous mind (pabhassara citta). This is our innate natural state which neither comes nor goes because it is unconditioned (asankhata). Realizing and then maintaining this natural state is the cessation of suffering (dukkha nirodha) -- the fruition of the path. But most sentient beings are unaware of this fact, and they never experience vijja because it is always defiled (covered over) by avijja. This is where jhana comes in. Through jhana we can come to see (vipassana/panna) that all conditioned states of mind -- even subtle and refined jhanic states -- are anicca, dukkha, and anatta, and thereby incline toward the deathless element (amata dhatu) which is inseparable from ones original mind. Without such an attitude of nonfashioning (atammayata) the supramundane paths and fruitions would be unattainable. And so I would suggest that jhana is part of the method -- and as such is more verb than noun. And clear knowing (vijja) is the noun -- so to speak. But what's in a word anyway? In the end they're all relative :-0 :-)) Metta, Geoff 44538 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana / Vipassana - What the Buddha taught sunnaloka Hi Evan, E: AA explains internal tranquillity of mind (ajjhattam cetosamatha) >as the concentration of full mental absorption (i.e. jhana), ... ----------- What is the AA? Geoff 44539 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:50pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma matheesha333 Hi Nina, You are welcome to butt in anytime :) N:> How could there be freedom from the hindrances if it is not known what they > are and when they arise? M: Ok, so it is that kind of panna. I can see something in Geoff's idea that it has to do with renunciation. An eminent Ajhan (forget his name) once expressed an idea that it was the panna to work around the hindrences. Somehow I get the feeling we still dont have the full picture here. Panna has a broad meaning here I think. Maybe something to with the fact that Sathi leads to both Panna and Samadhi. That Samma sathi is the precurser to both Samma samadhi and samma gnana which ultimately leads to samma vimukhthi. To have developed panna which takes a lot of mindfulness, there would be concurrent development upto jhana levels of samadhi. Even though we might practice jhana or vipassana divorced from each other now, sathipatthana seems to develop them concurrently. There is a sutta in which the buddha says 'to those who know samatha, I teach vipassana, and vice versa' So to say that anyone who practices one after the other is wrong and not effective, is not quite correct either. This just leads me to think that there are many paths to the top. N:> The supramundane Path has right concentration that is supramundane. M: Fair enough. The qualitative difference should be the presence of panna? Do you think if there were less attachment to the dhamma here there would be less emails? :) metta Matheesha 44540 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:28pm Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma matheesha333 Hi Geoff, Yes, it is stated in the suttas that there > can be no jhana w/o panna (Dmp XXV.372). This shows just how subtly > interconnected all the path factors of the eightfold path are. This > is borne out by experience, and its very difficult to fully explain > just how integral the eightfold path is, and just how > unskillful/unproductive it is to attempt to sever the eighth limb of > the path (or radically redefine it in terms that bear little > resemblance to the suttas). M: As i said in a post to Nina, there is a sutta in which the buddha talks of how he would teach samatha to those who know vipassana, vipassana to those who know samatha, both to those who know neither, and to those who know both - encourage them to develop it further. This seems to suggest that there is no clear temporal alignment in the practice of these two for them to be effective at the end of the day. The only time they NEED to come together is when the path becomes the supramndane path, in my opinion and there is an issuing forth into samma vimukhthi. G:> "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the > first jhana.' M: This could still be (mundane) jhana could it not, because panna is born only after jhana is attained when another practice of vipassana is superimposed on it. I personally dont think there is a big qualitative difference which deserve the special qualification of supramundane jhana. A sothapanna would know that even jhana is anicca, dukkha and anatta, arising from cause and effect mechanisms, made up of nama and rupa components, without any doubt in his mind. He would also know that there is bliss beyond this as well. But when he attains a jhana ..its still jhana. He has access to the knowledge if he want it. Its just a tool that anyone can acomplish if they tried. Consciousness which does not settle on anything, where no sankhara are made is something to be experienced, only the path can be taught. The words dont reach. much peace Matheesha ----------------------- Samyutta Nikaya XXII.53 Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "One attached is unreleased; one unattached is released. Should consciousness, when taking a stance, stand attached to (a physical) form, supported by form (as its object), established on form, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation. "Should consciousness, when taking a stance, stand attached to feeling, supported by feeling (as its object), established on feeling, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation. "Should consciousness, when taking a stance, stand attached to perception, supported by perception (as its object), established on perception, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation. "Should consciousness, when taking a stance, stand attached to fabrications, supported by fabrications (as its object), established on fabrications, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation. "Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible. "If a monk abandons passion for the property of form... "If a monk abandons passion for the property of feeling... "If a monk abandons passion for the property of perception... "If a monk abandons passion for the property of fabrications... "If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no base for consciousness. Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" See also: SN XII.38 Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-053.html 44541 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:52pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. matheesha333 Hi Evan, Its called Devenapathis Samatha Vipassana meditation centre. I'm awaiting their contact details from a friend in Sri Lanka. Yes, they do have two instructors who teach in English. Can send you a bit more detail if you are interested. There are no branches anywhere else though. metta Matheesha 44542 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. matheesha333 Hi Howard, No, but I do know of one practitioner who went there and achieved quite a lot who lives in US. But unfortunatley the usefulness of that might be limited. :) metta Matheesha 44543 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Thanks for your detiled analysis. After considering it for a while I think I agree with B. Bodhi. I don't think he was discrediting the commentaries or abhidhamma pitaka but just acknowledging an historical difference. People in the 6th century BC just didn't think about concept and reality. It never occurred to them. This "Abandonment" sutta is a good case in point. If concepts are not included are we not to abandon them? This is a question that is trickier than it looks and, to my mind, it still hasn't been fully worked out. The problem is that the Buddha didn't specifically address this issue so we have to rely on commentators who we don't really know or else ignore the question all together or become a commentator ourself. I think the latter alternative is almost inevitable. Everyone's understanding is an interpretation based on his or her accumulations until there is direct seeing. Larry 44544 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:25pm Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) philofillet Hi James Thanks for the friendly ramble in the other post. I am afraid to say that you conditioned reflection on just what erotic candies might be. As for the "go against the grain thing", it's not so much about your writing ability and go aginst the grain was not the right way to put it. I think there's a lack of diplomacy at times that cuts right to the chase. You lay out broadly-drawn prognosises (sp?) of people's ways of studying or discussing Dhamma, often lacking in generosity but at the same time containing some truth that is helpful to reflect on. You compared me once to a friendly puppy seeking approval and affection and you were bang on. I could perhaps compare you to some other kind of dog but I will stop that train of thought right here! After I went off line in February, an interesting point of yours was left hanging and I reflected on it occasionally. Here it is: > Phil: She's interested in what's happening here and now and > insists on that. That's why those talks are so good, and I hope you > have the mp3. If you stay open to it, and listen, you'll see the > appeal. I honestly don't know why you see her as being so misguided. > It's so pure, just bringing experience down to it's barest elements. > What is wrong or threatening about that? > > James: Phil, I was simply commenting on the first mp3 because that > is the one you had commented on. I haven't listened to all of the > mp3s. I commented just on what she mentioned in that first mp3. If > she reverses this position later on, then that is another matter. I > am not sure why she isn't consistent. > > I find nothing wrong with bringing people back to the present > moment; but, really, there is nothing extraordinary about that. I > could remind you to come back to the present moment until the cows > come home, is that really going to make a change in your mind? If > K. Sujin really wants to help people, she needs to give them the > tools so that they will come back to the present moment without > depending on her frequent reminders. She should be making people > self-reliant, not dependent. Ph: First of all, I think you would agree that there is no real need for us to continue discussing the pros and cons of Kh Sujin's approach, since neither of us seems to be in a mood for getting caught up in debates these days. As you know, they just go around and around and around. But I really would like to think about that "If K Sujin really wants to help people, she needs to give them the tools so that they will come back to the present moment without depending on her frequent reminders. She should be making people self-reliant, not dependent." It's an interesting point. Come to think of it, I would like to use that as one of my reflection points today. I will continue this post later. Thanks again for your post, and good luck with your move. By any chance will you be able to see the sphinx as you take a pee? On clear days, I can see Mt Fuji from a little window above the toilet as I perform my ablutions. It's very refreshing! Metta, Phil 44545 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:36pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. Evan_Stamato... Matheesha, Thank you for that information. If you have more information I would be interested. I would not be possible for me to practice there at the moment but in a few years time I may have the opportunity so if you can send me more information I would appreciate it. Kind Regards, Evan 44546 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:04pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. Evan_Stamato... Matheesha, This seems to be the centre. http://www.lankaweb.com/news/items04/101004-1.html With metta, Evan 44547 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:26pm Subject: (Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 169- Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (l) philofillet Hi Nina and all I re-read this chapter the other day so let's see how much sunk in. > > i Which cittas are not accompanied by adhimokkha? Cittas accompanied by doubt or restlessness. Neither can find determination (adhimokka) re the object. > > ii Can adhimokkha arise in a sense-door process? The bare cittas see that see etc don't need determination to find the object, just as they don't need other particulars such as energy (virya) But "process" indicates more than the 10 bare cittas, doesn't it? Is determination needed by javana cittas in a sense door process? Sure. determination re the object is needed for kusala and akusala cittas except for the ones mentioned above. > > iii Can viriya be akusala? Of course. If people are inspired by the famous passage of the four right efforts and seek to cultivate them intentionally without right understanding of the conditioned nature of realities, there will be akusala. And leaving that point aside, since we are almost always ignorant of realities in the moment, and since there is so much akusala resulting from this ignorance in daily life, virya is predominantly akusala. Rare moments of right effort can be cultivated, however, so there is no need to feel discouraged by this. > > iv Viriya is saòkhåra dhamma. Why did the Buddha exhort > people to strive for wisdom although there is no self who > can put forth energy? Hmm. He saw into that nature of realities and knew that dhammas such as wisdom (panna) could be cultivated through mindfulness, and that when effort is accompanied by wisdom (as it must be to have any value)it would lead toward the gradual eradication of defilements such as self-view. He also knew that his teaching went against the way of the world (even in his day - how much more now!) and that people would misinterpret it and adapt it to the needs of self. > v What is right effort of the eightfold Path? If I recall correctly, the path factors are all cetasikas, so right effort would be the cetasika virya. It must arise with other path factors such as right view (panna) > > vi Which are the proximate causes for right effort? Hmm. There must be right understanding or the effort will not be right. There must be an object that has arisen, obviously. I don't know. > > vii How can right effort of the eightfold Path be developed? Patiently. Appreciation of moments of right effort, as rare as they are, will condition the arising of more. Please tell me more. > > viii At which moment is right effort of the eightfold Path be > developed? At any moment in which there is kusala citta. There must be right effort for kusala citta to arise. > > ix What is the object which right effort of the eightfold Path > experiences? I don't know. Thanks in advance for any feedback, Nina, or anyone else. Metta, Phil 44548 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 4/18/05 8:01:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dhammachat@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > No, but I do know of one practitioner who went there and achieved > quite a lot who lives in US. But unfortunatley the usefulness of that > might be limited. :) > > metta > > Matheesha > ===================== Thanks. :-) Do you know what section of the U.S. s/he lives in? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44549 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:44pm Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma sunnaloka Hi Matheesha, M: As i said in a post to Nina, there is a sutta in which the buddha talks of how he would teach samatha to those who know vipassana, vipassana to those who know samatha, both to those who know neither, and to those who know both - encourage them to develop it further. This seems to suggest that there is no clear temporal alignment in the practice of these two for them to be effective at the end of the day. ----------------- Yes, this is clearly stated in AN IV.94 and AN II.30. One can begin with either samatha or vipassana, but IMO neither by itself is jhana. ---------------- "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.'â€? M: This could still be (mundane) jhana could it not, because panna is born only after jhana is attained when another practice of vipassana is superimposed on it. I personally dont think there is a big qualitative difference which deserve the special qualification of supramundane jhana. ----------------------- What I’ve been saying all along is that jhana is an essential path factor because it (A) stabilizes and unifies the mind, and (B) because it allows the yogi to see the conditionality of even jhanic consciousness, and thereby transcend it. I would suggest that vipassana isn’t superimposed upon jhana -- it’s an inherent mental factor of jhana as right samadhi. This is clearly indicatied in MN 111 -- even when one is focussing on the (samatha) jhana factors of piti and sukha -- one still clearly comprehends what is transpiring: "Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana -- applied thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness (vl. intent), desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention -- he ferrets them out one by one. Known to him they arise, known to him they remain, known to him they subside. He discerns, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remains unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers." -- MN 111, tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu Otherwise one is simply blissing out -- which is only a temporal escape. Jhana performs a much more active function than just blissing out. If one just wants to bliss out, then take drugs. If one just wants to be in a state devoid of sensory form perception, then take lots of drugs :-)) (I’m only joking -- please don’t anyone take recreational drugs.) M: . I personally dont think there is a big qualitative difference which deserve the special qualification of supramundane jhana. ------------------------- That’s the point I was trying to make last time around. Jhana with panna naturally leads to atammayata -- nonfashioning. At this point there is no more attempt to become anything whatsoever. There’s no attempt to attain anything special or be anything special. M: A sothapanna would know that even jhana is anicca, dukkha and anatta, arising from cause and effect mechanisms --------------------------- Of course, but a streamwinner will probably still practice jhana. In my opinion there can be no supramundane jhana -- jhana is always mundane, i.e. it’s a conditioned phenomenon. IMO the commentarial tradition has the whole understanding of the lokuttara paths/fruitions entirely convoluted and mixed up because they don’t seem to have the slightest idea about the nonduality of conditioned and unconditioned phenomena. M: But when he attains a jhana ..its still jhana. He has access to the knowledge if he want it. Its just a tool that anyone can acomplish if they tried. ------------------- Agreed. M: Consciousness which does not settle on anything, where no sankhara are made is something to be experienced, only the path can be taught. The words dont reach. ------------------- Agreed. You mention SN XII.53 & SN XII.38 (which I don‘t currently have access to). SN XII.64 touches on the same principle: "Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?" "On the western wall, lord." "And if there is no western wall, where does it land?" "On the ground, lord." "And if there is no ground, where does it land?" "On the water, lord." "And if there is no water, where does it land?" "It does not land, lord." "In the same way, where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food... contact... intellectual intention... consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or grow. Where consciousness does not land or grow, name-&- form does not alight. Where name-&-form does not alight, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair." ( tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) Metta, Geoff 44550 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:28pm Subject: Re: Lay people who heard Buddha & Awakened foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sunnaloka" wrote: > > Hi Lisa, > > I like your exuberance, and also your clearly experiential > discernment (panna) that words are only ever mere words, and no word > or conceptual grouping of words can ever transcend relative truth. > > Once I was at a week long teaching by Ven. Thrangu Rinpoche (who is > a Geshe -- i.e. a highly educated scholar -- as well as yogi). The > teaching was on a very fruitional Mahamudra meditation manual > titled 'Clarifying the Natural State,' and during a question period > after a teaching session, a very sincere Western monk asked > Rinpoche: "What is rigpa?" > > Now rigpa, for those unfamiliar with Tibetan, is the translation of > the Sanskrit 'vidya' which is 'vijja' in Pali, and this term plays a > key role in both Dzogchen and Mahamudra practice, as it is >considered to be one's innate transcendent (unconditioned) > awareness, > the recognition of which is the basis, the path, and >the fruition of practice. But at this particular moment, when asked, >"What is rigpa?", Rinpoche answered: "A word." And of course this was >followed by one of Rinpoche's characteristic ear to ear grins, which >qualified his answer for anyone who understood just what 'rigpa' is. Sunnaloka (Geoff) I would love to met Ven. Thrangu Rinpoche just to see that smile. I always get a silly grin on my face when I met teachers like that ....my words leave and I have no questions I just smile like a dope! I have been introduced to the word rigpa but not through my Lama friend we don't talk much we just meditate together once a week and I help out with putting Dhamma studies together for the group. I also help his lovely wife with the house and chores sometimes. She just had a baby and I was her helper for awhile...so cool! I found rigpa through my own studies and I will go back to it again to see if the word has anything else to say to me. I keep an eye open for synchronicity now (wink-wink). In my sharing of the books I've studied is the story of how I met my Lama friend. (my secret name for him is "Lama Pajama')...don't tell anyone. The first time I met him he had just finished teaching a yoga class and he was wearing something that looked like yellow pajamas and that is what I call him when I think of him in my prayers. It makes me smile and the metta flows.... Here are some of my favorite books from Tibetan Buddhism it's nice to find someone who knows about rigpa, very nice to meet you! My first Dhamma book from the Tibetan Traditions. "The Life And Teachings Of Naropa" Translated from the original Tibetan with philosophical commentary based on the oral transmmission by Herbert V. Guenther. I am still working on understanding this book and I've read it three times. The book is like trying to dance in the sky there is simply nothing to hold onto or stand on when I read it and I end up falling through myself. Mystics like Naropa talk to the heart not to the reasonable or logical mind....this book is one big ..Wow...I read it on a lark and it took me to places my imagination couldn't even go. One of the most unusual modern books on Tibetan Buddhism and Dhamma that I've read so far. It explains the feminine and male principles used in the Tibetan tradition and the role that women played in this beautiful and unique culture. "Dakini's Warm Breath" The Feminine Principle in Tibetan Buddhism," by Judith Simmer-Brown. Very well written and lovely citations to keep me reading and researching. Very scholarly in my limited opinion but warmed with much compassion and love for Dhamma. Simmer's book helped me sit on several insights that hatched into lovely paintings. I learned about Khandroma and Green Tara, which gave me a few insights that led me to my Lama friend who also is a Rinposche and a Tulku. I thought he might be a someone who could help me find a Dzogchen teacher and he turned out to be a friend I meditate with on Sundays. I love him and his wife and children very much and learned that friends make some of the best Dhamma teachers. "The Great Treatise on the Stages Of The Path To Enlightenment," by Tsong-Kha-Pa. These series of books remind me so much of my training through Goenka's vipassana retreats. I remember the Dhamma talks late at night after meditating from 4am until 9pm or working in the kitchen and managing the female sitters I would be very tired and listen to the Dhamma talks without much else going on in my head except the concentrated will focused on not falling asleep. The Dhamma talks given during that time of the day were kind of burned into my head I didn't have much to defend or any pretense by that time. When I read these books it was like coming home again. Very well written and organized, very easy to understand and put the methods into practice and so full of Dhamma I have to wear sun glasses to read the books! "The Perfection of Wisdom In Eight Thousand LInes & Verse Summary," Translated by Edward Conze. Some of the passages in this book made me weep they touched a part of my meditation I hadn't been able to put into words. How the Tathagata Knows the Word [270-74] 3. The Suchness of the world, the Suchness of the Arhats, The Suchness of Pratyekabuddhas, and the Suchness of the Jinas,-- As just one single Suchness free from existence, unaltering, Has the perfection of wisdom been understood by the Tathagata. 4. Whether the wise abide in the world, or whether they have gone to final Nirvana, Firmly established remains this fixed sequence of Dharmahood: "Dharmas are empty." It is the Suchness (tathata) which the Bodhisattvas understand. Therefore then have the Buddhas been given the name of 'Tathagatas.' 5. This is the sphere of the Guides, with their own powers, Who reside in the delightful forests of the perfection of wisdom. Although they fetch suffering beings out of the tree places of woe, Yet they never have anywhere the notion of a being. All I can say is...WOW....and sigh when I hit passages like that. I have to put the book down and just be still for a while. It takes me a long time to read Dhamma books sometimes when I get hit with the .....WOW....I can't move much...hahaha Right after I found the Prajnaparamita I stumbled upon Vimalakirti Sutra and I had some of the biggest insights and giggles during and after reading many of it's passages. It's an interesting experience to laugh while being hit by insight tests one's equanimity! It is a profound and sometimes funny sutra on how even Arahants and Bodhisattvas still have to struggle with the issues we all struggle with. Entering the Gate of Nondualism is my favorite chapter. Vimalakirti asked the Bodhisattvas how does one go about entering the gate of Nondualism? Each Bodhisattva gave a very wise and wonderful answer which clearly showed the reason why they had attained such positive fruits. In the end each Bodhisattva had given their opinion on how to enter the gate of Nondualism and they waited for Vimalakirti's acknowledgment on how wise and wonderful they were in their wisdoms and insights on what is beyond conceptual understanding. Vimalakirti did not say a word! I laughted so hard I am sure the people on the subway train I was riding to work with thought I was totally mad....lol...With this chapter on Entering the Gate of Nondualism preached, five thousand Bodhisattvas in the assembly were all able to enter the gate of nondualism and to learn to accept the truth of birthlessness. These sets of books are very heavy and made my cursing sankharas come and go like yellow and black hornets being shaken up in a fruit jar! I've been working my way through Nagarjuna's "Seventy Stanzas" A Buddhist Psychology of Emptiness by David Ross Komito. Nagarjuna just cuts the tendons in every concept I have when it comes to reality as it is. He is so subtle that I don't even know I am bleeding until I crash from exhaustion from trying to worm my way around his using my concepts of reality against self grasping (Does that make any sense?) Anyway...trying to figure this guy out I got into "Madhyamika and Yogacara" by Gadjin M. Nagao. I needed another system to compare Madhyamika against because I really struggle with the total negation without a positive turn around that Madhyamika seems to present..(I still feel like cursing sometimes when I read certain passages! hahaha). Nagao helped me develop a better understand Madhyamika and also the Yogacara system, which if I understand it correctly has another step after negation, which is a turning around and ===> 1. Prayogika-jnana, knowledge held on the stage of preparatory practice. 2. nirvikalpa-jnana, non-discriminative wisdom or knowledge that is often called "fundamental wisdom" in the Sino-Japanese Buddhist traditions, and 3. tat-prsthalabdha-jnana, knowledge acquired subsequent to that. Knowledge (1) that is, preparatory knowledge is in the direction of "ascent" as it aims towards the fundamental wisdom. the latter knowledge, (3), that is, subsequent knowledge, is in the direction of "descent" as it results from the fundmental wisdom. I also looked into this system because I wondered how does what is without form walk in this world and talk to us enough to wake us to our own self made misery? Gotama could of just kept on sitting under his Bodhitree...why did he turn around and come back?.... Mahayana really gets into this issue. The Chapter on "Logic of Convertibility" in Nagao's book in really helped me understand the path of the Bodhisattva, the doctrine of sunyata and introduced me to technical terms used in the Mahayana tradition. I didn't get any Wow's from the book but I did get an excellent introduction into how linguistic analysis and philosophical concepts can also bring a stronger understanding when birthing intuition and insight which needs wisdom and experience to bring them into full bloom (personal opinion--Warning!---). I think Abhidhamma will also help me strengthen this area of study for me....I think it will, I may end up with a sankhara attack of cursings again! hahaha "Realizing Emptiness," Madhyamaka insight and meditation by Gen Lamrimpa translated by B. Alan Wallace. I should of read this first before I got hit by Nagarjuna it would of softened the blows. But hey, I got to look at my cursing sankharas up close and personal, thanks to Nagarjuna. "Realizing Emptiness," is a very easy read and gives little bite sized pieces on how to analyze experiences and see how easy it is to be led astray if I take my emotions, thoughts, feelings and reactions to sensations totally serious. It's amazing how much these works brought to mind my training in vipassana and anapanasati meditaion and the study of the Pali Canon. They helped me really take a good look at what I've been through in these last 15 years of Dhamma work. One more book and the reason why I looked into Tibetan Buddhism. "Dzogchen, The Self-Perfected State," by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, Translated from the Italian by John Shane. This is my Lama friends teacher and this book helped me find him. Now that has become the most amazing journey of all which has just begun and ended at the same time! ....my first introduction to Dzogchen is when a friend asked my Lama friend if I needed empowerments for a certain lesson I was going to learn and he told her, "It's all in the mind." I got another huge ....Wow....which, I'm still sitting on waiting to hatch... oh wait..... there is no chicken or egg, no first or last.....:) Time to go feed the chickens and collect the eggs! hahaha With metta, Lisa 44551 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 10:34pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 171 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== The Visuddhimagga (IV, 63) explains how there can be a greater sense of urgency and how the mind should be encouraged. We read: * "How does he encourage the mind on an occasion when it should be encouraged? When his mind is listless owing to sluggishness in the exercise of understanding or to failure to attain the bliss of peace, then he should stimulate it by reviewing the eight grounds for a sense of urgency. These are the four, namely, birth, ageing, sickness and death, with the suffering of the states of loss as the fifth, and also the suffering in the past rooted in the round (of rebirth), the suffering in the future rooted in the round (of rebirth), and the suffering in the present rooted in the search for nutriment. And he creates confidence by recollecting the special qualities of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. This is how he encourages the mind on an occasion when it should be encouraged." * The “states of loss” mentioned by the Visuddhimagga are the rebirths which are “removed from the happy destiny” (XIX, 92, 93), they are rebirth in the animal world, in the “ghost world”, in the world of demons (asuras) or in hell planes. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44553 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results/ Striving buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - I am pleased to see your reply that gives a different perspective than mine that was presented earlier to Sarah. I think the main issues underlying your discussion are as follows : -- The effort to do the maintenance, preservation, increase of skilled states is not wrong if it is accompanying right understanding. -- In order to really understand that it is a conditioned dhamma, not self , we have to listen again and again. -- The 'yatabhuta-dassana' is a result of vipassana n~aana that develops in stages. It cannot arise in the beginning. It begins with intellectual understanding and considering whatever reality appears in our life. -- If we think,we have to be noble disciples first, we put off the development of understanding. N: Is it possible to begin now instead of thinking of the end result which is far away? What do you think? T: I am really glad you asked! Because it is exactly my point too that all the qualities of the ariya-puggalas are the end goal of conscientious Buddhists (but it may not be apparent to you from my writings, and I apologize for the failure of communication). Hence we, the worldlings, should not talk about , or pretend that we see the "ariya light" at the end of the tunnel very bright and clear, here & now. Therefore, when someone tries to tell me not to have the 'self' or the ' I am' obsession in the practice, my reply is "hey, you are talking about my end result when my atta ditthi is gone. How could I get to the top of the building from the ground floor without walking up the stairs, or by using an elevator, or by a helicopter lifting?". Sure, as a worldling I now have both the 'I am' obsession, the atta-ditthi, plus some lobha associated with desire (chanda), strong efforts (viriya) and mindfulness (sati) in my practice of the Eightfold path. You know that in order to develop clear understanding (panna) of the 4 Noble Truths I would need samma-sati and samma-vayama to overcome miccha ditthi. But one day my samma-ditthi will arise with sammasati and samavayama, according to MN 117 (Maha- cattarisaka Sutta). I am now beyond the beginning point, but I don't think it is wrong to constantly review the progress with the end result in mind. The following quote appears in many suttas: ".. a monk generates desire, endeavours, stirs up energy, exerts his mind and strives for the non-arising of evil unskilled states that have not arisen… for the getting rid of evil unskilled states that have arisen… for the arising of skilled states that have not arisen…for the maintenance, preservation, increase, maturity, development and completion of skilled states that have arisen." It is clear from the Buddha's words that the monks must try hard to fight against akusala dhammas and to develop kusala dhammas till perfection. It is this conscientious effort, one of the 8 path factors, that leads to the cessation of lobha as the end result. N: There is a process of development and this takes time; panna can grow little by little. Beginning with intellectual understanding and considering different dhammas that appear, as we can do right now while considering what we are talking about. T: How is it possible for the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhammas (4 satipatthana + 4 iddhipada + 5 indriya + 5 bala + 7 bojjhanga + 8 ariya- magga) to go to the culmination of their development by means of your " process of development" that begins with "intellectual understanding and considering different dhammas that appear"? This process of development, is it effortless and free from lobha - even though the practitioner is not yet free from the defilements? Why would the "considering different dhammas that appear" lead to lokuttara panna and arahatta-magga eventually? Frankly, I have found it hard to accept. But if it can, how long would this process take us? I think this "process" is like trying to fill a large-and-dry swimming pool by dropping water in it, one drop at a time. By not thinking about the end result, how can there be a review of progress? Without reviewing of progress, how can there be right effort to improve the practice? N: (from 'Satipatthana' notes) "Sati arises with dana, with sila and with bhavana, including samatha and vipassana. Sati is non-forgetful of what is kusala, it arises with each kusala citta. When there is an opportunity for generosity, sati is heedful, non-forgetful, so that this opportunity is not wasted. When sati does not arise, we are forgetful of kusala and we are unable to be generous. When there is an opportunity for dana, we are often neglectful and we waste this opportunity. When sati does not arise, we are unable to give, we are stingy. "Many conditions are necessary for the arising of kusala citta: former accumulations of kusala and association with wise friends are important conditions. Also reading the scriptures, hearing the Dhamma and considering what we heard are conditions for seeing the benefit of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. Thus, we cannot make kusala arise at will, it has no possessor, there is no one who can direct its arising. [endquote] T: To accomplish right mindfulness we must have righteous sanna (e.g. anicca-sanna is righteous while nicca-sanna is not) that is a result of samatha and vipassana bhavana repeatedly with great effort plus mindfulness and discernment, until all the wrong perceptions are displaced by the right ones -- this is a tedious process. I believe that my understanding is supported by MN 95: " The final arrival at truth, Bharadvaja, lies in the repetition, development, and cultivation of those same things. In this way, Bharadvaja, there is the final arrival at truth; in this way one finally arrives at truth; in this way we describe the final arrival at truth." The great effort (sammappadhana and bala) is a supporting factor of this tedious training (sikkha): "Striving" is most helpful for the final arrival at truth, Bharadvaja. If one does not strive, one will not finally arrive at truth: but because one strives, one does finally arrive at truth. That is why striving is most helpful for the final arrival at truth." The final arrival at truth <--- Striving <--- Scrutinizing <--- Application of will <--- Zeal <--- Reflection on the Teachings <---Examination of meanings <--- Memorizing the Teachings <--- Hearing the Dhamma Respectfully, Tep P.S. Please ignore the message that was deleted a moment ago. It contained a few errors. ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > very good remarks and they invite to considering more. I have a try. > op 16-04-2005 19:28 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: 44554 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results sarahprocter... Hi Tep, (Mike & Nina) I’m very glad to see you’re having further discussions with Mike and Nina. As I indicated, I was really grateful for your detailed feedback, beautifully presented and with very pertinent sutta quotes . Very good and subtle points for further discussion. I had just made a few comments on your printed out post, so I’ll just try to summarise them, even though they’re bound to overlap with your other discussions: 1. Firstly, I don’t have an idea of having to ‘pull ‘someone’ from a deep hole of miccha ditthi’ – most the Musings refer to questions I or others raised recently (often reflecting my own uncertainties or wrong views following on from controversial topics here:-)). I’m just relaying aspects which I’ve been considering further. Often ‘All’ gets no response, so I include a few names of people who might find it interesting or might respond. 2. Right Efforts – with awareness and understanding, not with any ‘I’ trying to control. Again we need to appreciate the conventional language for what it is when we read phrases such as ‘a monk generates desire, endeavours, stirs up energy...’ etc. 3. ‘At any time’ means not a ‘particular time’, i.e now. This is the only time awareness can develop. No need to wait until we are ariyans – if there’s no beginning, it cannot develop. And yes, when I refer to awareness or satipatthana in these contexts, understanding or knowing is also implied as you say. ‘knowing the “All”...’. 4. Knowing different dhammas just as they are ...again, I don’t agree that ‘we have to be noble disciples first’. There are stages of insight as we’ve discussed before and even now there can be a beginning to know the characteristics of dhammas just as they are. If we always think there has to be an idea of ‘I’ until we are ariyans , it will be a hindrance as I see it. The same with lobha and other kilesa – gradually seen for what they are, gradually attenuated.....remember the adze handle? Each moment of kusala, there is a temporary overcoming of hindrances....each moment of satipatthana, a dhamma is seen for what it is however little. 5. All the guarding has to be with awareness, not with any idea of self – more in Musings9 to follow. 6. Sad or discouraged – I agree with your comments with regard to satipatthana, but remember the kusala dhammas are all anatta – in truth, not 'you' or 'me' to do anything. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > "And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk > remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful > -- > putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains > focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... > mental > qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting > aside > greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right > mindfulness." ... Excellent. Thank you again for all your help - I'm sure the silent majority here will have appreciated your feedback a lot too, so courteously presented as Mike said. Hope I can learn from it:-). Metta, Sarah ==== 44555 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Comparing ... Conceit sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Philip wrote: > I would agree that it is helpful to compare ourselves to others > in terms of conventional things, such as health, living > circumstances and whether we are a cadaver being loaded into an > ambulance or not. ... S: I’m not so sure, but as you go on to say, ‘we cannot know another’s citta’. Only panna will know. Still, I think it’s helpful to remember that conceit can be incredibly subtle and not only arises when we reflect erroneously on how sth or so is better, equal or inferior, but also when we reflect correctly in this way. It can also arises when there isn’t even any comparing. The Vibhanga,Ch 17, 832, gives this list of objects on account of which pride and conceit is likely to arise: "Pride of birth; pride of clan; pride of health; pride of youth; pride of life; pride of gain; pride of being honoured; pride of being respected; pride of prominence; pride of having adherents; pride of wealth; pride of appearance; pride of erudition; pride of intelligence; pride of being a knowledgeable authority; pride of being (a regular) alms collector; accomplishment; pride of popularity; pride of being moral; pride of jhana; pride of dexterity; pride of being tall; pride of (bodily) proportion; pride of form; pride of (bodily) perfection......thinking about relatives; thinking about one’s district; thinking about (how to) not die...; thinking associated with sympathy for others; thinking associated with gain, being honoured, fame; thinking associated with being not despised" ***** I’m sure we’ll find that most if not all our comparisons are included here......including the examples you give above:-/ .... >I guess it is that sort of comparison that > triggered the Buddha's serach for enlightenment after his chariot > ride. There are so many messengers like this in daily life, around > us all the time. Since we are inevitably cuaght up in concepts about > people, the concepts can at least become helpful in increasing our > understanding. ... S: Yes...again it just comes back to sati and panna to know. Easy to delude ourselves. I had a good example when we were in Bkk – a friend was comparing wholesome qualities (and actually appreciating these in others), but I actually had some conceit that I wasn’t comparing as he was....in other words, conceit about having less conceit:-/. ..... > Maybe the area where it is a mistake to compare is when it comes > to paramattha dhammas. We cannot know the other's citta. There is a > natural tendency to think "that person understands better than I do" > but strictly speaking that is wrong. There is no person, there is > only understanding, moment by moment. Of course, some people have > accumulated understanding in a way that makes it much more likely > that they will have moments of understanding than I will, but I > guess we have wrong view when we say "she understands better than I > do." We fall into the trap of seeing understanding as something that > is owned and operated by people. It's not really like that, when we > get deeper into dhammas. I guess... ... S: Good comments and well put. I think it’s quite useless to speculate and compare with others like this, but then it’s also quite useless to have conceit (or wrong view) of any kind as in my example...but it’s conditioned, it arises and it can be known gradually. Metta, Sarah ======= 44556 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:17am Subject: Dhamma Thread (333) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Kamma are like shades of our body. Our body is what exists. When the body does not exist, then there will not exist its shade. Wherever we go, our shade also move along with our body. When does that shade disappear? When the body disappears, its shade also disappears. 1)Is kamma a citta? No, kamma is not a citta. 2)Is kamma a cetasika? In general sense, no. Kamma is not a cetasika except sahajata-kamma. 3)Is kamma a rupa? No. It's definitely not. 4)Is kamma nibbana? No. Kamma is not nibbana. 5)Is kamma a reality? Hard to answer. Counter question will be 'Is the shade a reality?' I was considering whether kamma is wrongly appointed as God by many people and many other religions. Can anyone see God? Can anyone see kamma? One can see the results of kamma but not the kamma directly. If the appointed God is kamma, is it logical just to pray without ever doing good things and refraining from bad things? May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44557 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Determination /adhimokkha & Energy/viriya (l) nilovg Hi Phil, I am glad you do this. op 19-04-2005 03:26 schreef Philip op philco777@...: >> i Which cittas are not accompanied by adhimokkha? > > Cittas accompanied by doubt or restlessness. Neither can find > determination (adhimokka) re the object. ------------- N: and the sense-cognitions, as you say under II. --------------- Ph:> ii Can adhimokkha arise in a sense-door process? > > The bare cittas see that see etc don't need determination to > find the object, just as they don't need other particulars such as > energy (virya) But "process" indicates more than the 10 bare cittas, doesn't it? Is determination needed by javana cittas in a sense door > process? Sure. determination re the object is needed for kusala and > akusala cittas except for the ones mentioned above. -------------- N: Yes, it is as you say, the other cittas arising in a process, apart from the sense-cognitions and moha-muulacitta with doubt, do need adhimokkha. Also the receiving-consciousness, investigating-consciousness and the other cittas of that process. ------------------- Ph: > iii Can viriya be akusala? > > Of course. If people are inspired by the famous passage of the > four right efforts and seek to cultivate them intentionally without > right understanding of the conditioned nature of realities, there > will be akusala. And leaving that point aside, since we are almost always ignorant of realities in the moment, and since there is so much akusala resulting from this ignorance in daily life, virya is > predominantly akusala. Rare moments of right effort can be cultivated, however, so there is no need to feel discouraged by this. N: Yes, often we are bound to take wrong effort for right effort. We do not have to cultivate right effort separately, because when there is right understanding of realities, right effort accompanies right understanding already, because of conditions. We do not have to think of effort. -------- Ph: > iv Viriya is sankhåra dhamma. Why did the Buddha exhort people to strive for wisdom although there is no self who can put forth energy? -------- N: The Buddha encouraged, reminded people, so that his words were a condition for not being forgetful. We can appreciate encouraging words from our friends in the same way. His disciples had no misunderstandings about realities being anatta, about the conditioned nature of wisdom and effort. Ph: Hmm. He saw into that nature of realities and knew that dhammas > such as wisdom (panna) could be cultivated through mindfulness, and > that when effort is accompanied by wisdom (as it must be to have any > value)it would lead toward the gradual eradication of defilements > such as self-view. -------- N: Very well said. ----------- Ph: He also knew that his teaching went against the way of the world (even in his day - how much more now!) and that people would misinterpret it and adapt it to the needs of self. -------------- N: Yes. There are people who doubt that right understanding can be developed in daily life. They think that there are too many distractions and that this hinders sati and paññaa. ----------- Ph: > v What is right effort of the eightfold Path? > If I recall correctly, the path factors are all cetasikas, so right effort would be the cetasika virya. It must arise with other path factors such as right view (panna) --------------- N: This shows again that right effort, sammaa vayaama, cannot be developed in isolation, separately from the other Path factors. -------------- Ph: vi Which are the proximate causes for right effort? > > Hmm. There must be right understanding or the effort will not be right. There must be an object that has arisen, obviously. I don't know. --------------- N: I shall quote from Vis. Ch XIV, 137) and Tiika: Text Vis.: Because of the words 'Bestirred, he strives wisely' (A.ii,115), its proximate cause is a sense of urgency; N: The Vis refers here to the Sutta about the goad. A horse may be stirred at the mere sight of the shadow of a goad, whereas another horse needs to be pricked, or have his flesh pierced by it, or be pierced to his very bone. Evenso a man may be agitated when he hears that in another village someone died. Thereupon he develops insight and penetrates the supreme truth. Whereas someone else needs to see someone who is afflicted or dead with his own eyes, or, he has to see a family member afflicted or dead, or he himself has to be grievously afflicted, before he has a sense of urgency (sa.mvega) and develops wisdom. Vis. text: or its proximate cause is grounds for the initiation of energy. When rightly initiated, it should be regarded as the root of all attainments. N: We read in the Vis. IV, 63, about eight grounds of urgency. The Tiika refers to the eight bases of energy for wholesome action as explained in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Eights, Ch VIII, ŒThe Bases of Indolence and of Energy¹. A monk who is lazy has numerous excuses for not developing right understanding to attain the unattained. He thinks that he will be tired or is tired because of work that had to be done, because of a journey that had to be made, because of not receiving enough almsfood, or because when he has received enough food his body is heavy, or because he has a slight illness, or he has just recovered from it. The energetic monk does not delay developing wisdom to attain the unattained in such cases. When he has a slight illness he realizes that this may grow worse, or when he has recently recovered, he is heedful: he foresees that he may become ill again, and that then the development of wisdom may become more difficult. -------------- Ph: vii How can right effort of the eightfold Path be developed? > > Patiently. Appreciation of moments of right effort, as rare as they are, will condition the arising of more. Please tell me more. ------------------ N: By developing right understanding of this very moment now! Even while we are discussing now on Internet with friends. We are reflecting. That is a kind of nama, non-self. There is seeing, that is a kind of nama, non-self. There is sound time and again, that is a kind of rupa, not a thing, not the computer. If there can be a moment of right understanding, even though beginning, even though coarse, there is a sense of urgency, there is an initiation of effort. As you say patience is important, we should not be impatient for the arising of a result of the practice. Saddha, confidence is important, as we see above in the quote. If there is no confidence in the development of understanding, we soon get discouraged and give up. --------------- Ph : viii At which moment is right effort of the eightfold Path be >> developed? > > At any moment in which there is kusala citta. There must be right effort for kusala citta to arise. ---------------------- N: Kusala citta with paññaa. This is supported by right effort and many other sobhana cetasikas. When there is awareness of a nama or rupa that appears now, there is right effort already. Which are suitable moments? Any moment now. There should not be selection of objects and situations. Akusala is an object just as worthy to be object of right understanding as kusala. I appreciate Jon stressing this often. ---------- Ph: ix What is the object which right effort of the eightfold Path experiences? > I don't know. ------------ N: When the Path is still mundane, any nama or rupa appearing now. The sobhana cetasikas that accompany the kusala citta with paññaa all share the same object. Right effort of the eightfold Path is effort for understanding the dhamma appearing at this moment. Thank you for your input, this reminds me of realities and it helps me to consider more. There is never enough considering of realities. Nina. 44558 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcaka dhammas. nilovg Hi Geoff, op 18-04-2005 23:11 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: > I hope you can now begin to appreciate that the commentarial > definition of jhana doesn't fully account for sutta statements > such as Dhammapada XXV.372: > > There's no jhana > for one with no discernment [panna], > no discernment > for one with no jhana. ----------------- N: Ven. Narada does not translate it in this way, but I have no time to look up the Pali now. He says instead of jhana: concentration. Thus, samaadhi and paññaa go together. Right, they are factors of the eightfold Path. ------------------- G: IMO accepting commentarial positions without questioning them or > connecting them to one's own experience isn't very useful. If > it works for you, so be it. But with all due respect, and I mean this > sincerely (recognizing that you are one of the main contributors to > this group and probably one of the founders), ------------------ N: I am not a founder ;-)) A. Sujin and the Mods are the founders, and Rob K, Howard and others were already there when I came. I came later on. ------------- G: do you not think it > rather disingenuous to teach the commentarial position regarding > jhana as being scripturally factual and beyond error without having > practiced and attained for oneself what they promote as jhana? -------------- N: Sorry, I do not teach. I study and consider and check what I read for myself. What I find useful I like to share with others. -------------- G: Because it seems to me that if one hasn't done so, one is just a > mere theoretical buddhologist, and should clearly indicate when > discussing meditation (samadhi/jhana) and discernment (panna), that > one doesn't know from experience what one is talking about. I > mean this respectfully and sincerely with a nonaggressive attitude. ------------------ N: The Buddha always took into account that people have different accumulations, different inclinations. He did not set rules that everybody has to develop samatha to the degree of jhana. Jhana leads to the abandonment of lobha, although it does not eradicate it. Vipassana leads to the eradication of ignorance. I am already old, the days and years fly by, faster and faster. I am interested at understanding all the realities appearing in my daily life. The Buddha taught me to investigate all, in the sabba-sutta. In jhana one is away from the world, but I want to know the dhammas appearing now: seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, and all the defilements arising on account of them. I want to understand conceit, and to know when it arises, I want to understand clinging, also when it is more subtle such as clinging to visible object arising now, and it does arise all the time. I do not want to delay following the sabba-sutta, I may collapse at any time. I read your other post about your motivations. You have your own reasons for developing jhana, and I do not want to argue about this. Nina. 44559 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma nilovg Hi Matheesha, You have many points and I could not answer them all. So, I leave some out. op 19-04-2005 00:50 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > Even though we might practice jhana or vipassana divorced from each > other now, sathipatthana seems to develop them concurrently. -------------- N: Rather: there can be awareness and understanding of the citta that develops jhana and/or vipassana, so that it is not taken for self. -------------- M:There > is a sutta in which the buddha says 'to those who know samatha, I > teach vipassana, and vice versa' So to say that anyone who practices > one after the other is wrong and not effective, is not quite correct > either. This just leads me to think that there are many paths to the > top. ------------- N: We have to see the context. It depends to whom he was speaking. To those who had accumulations for samatha? Even when he spoke about jhana the aim was always: not to take it for self. He would always teach anatta. That is the Buddha's teaching and nobody else's. ------------------- > N:> The supramundane Path has right concentration that is > supramundane. ------------ M: Fair enough. The qualitative difference should be the presence of > panna? ----------- N: There must be paññaa with both. Never without paññaa, but paññaa that has nibbaana as object is lokuttara. ---------- M: Do you think if there were less attachment to the dhamma here there > would be less emails? :) ------------ N: Who can tell what other people's cittas are like? Mails are inspired by different types of citta, also at different moments while writing one email. One should scrutinize one's own cittas. Then there is a sense of urgency to develop understanding right now. Nina. 44560 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcaka dhammas. christine_fo... Hello Nina (and Geoff), The Pali for v. 372 is: Natthi Jhaana.m apa~n~nassa pa~n~naa natthi ajhaayato Yamhi jhaana~n ca pa~n~naa ca sa ve nibbaanasantike. The English is: "There is no concentration in one who lacks wisdom, nor is there wisdom in him who lacks concentration. In whom are both concentration and wisdom, he, indeed, is in the presence of Nibbaana." (Narada Thera) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Geoff, > op 18-04-2005 23:11 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@y...: > > I hope you can now begin to appreciate that the commentarial > > definition of jhana doesn't fully account for sutta statements > > such as Dhammapada XXV.372: > > > > There's no jhana > > for one with no discernment [panna], > > no discernment > > for one with no jhana. > ----------------- > N: Ven. Narada does not translate it in this way, but I have no time to look > up the Pali now. He says instead of jhana: concentration. Thus, samaadhi and > paññaa go together. Right, they are factors of the eightfold Path. > ------------------- courtesy snip 44561 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:29am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana / Vipassana - What the Buddha taught Evan_Stamato... Hi Geoff, AA = Anguttara Atthakatha I hope it means more to you than me. I'll do an internet search to find out what it is later but I suspect it is a post canonical commentary on the AN. Kind Regards, Evan ______________________________________________________ Hi Evan, E: AA explains internal tranquillity of mind (ajjhattam cetosamatha) >as the concentration of full mental absorption (i.e. jhana), ... ----------- What is the AA? Geoff 44562 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:35am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcakadhammas. Evan_Stamato... Nina, I would rather say that in jhana, one is deep within the world. Metta, Evan Nina: In jhana one is away from the world... 44563 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sunnaloka" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > do you not think it > rather disingenuous to teach the commentarial position regarding > jhana as being scripturally factual and beyond error without having > practiced and attained for oneself what they promote as jhana? > > Because it seems to me that if one hasn't done so, one is just a > mere theoretical buddhologist, and should clearly indicate when > discussing meditation (samadhi/jhana) and discernment (panna), that > one doesn't know from experience what one is talking about. I > mean this respectfully and sincerely with a nonaggressive attitude. > > ========= Dear Geoff, With respect, I get the feeling you think your teachers have jhana, or some monks you know? But how could you know that , certainly no monk would even hint that he has attained jhana, it is against vinaya. And keeping the vinaya is the first step needed to attain such profound states. Vinaya Vibhanga: """ Should any bhikkhu report (his own) factual superior human state to an unordained person, it is to be confessed. The factors for the full offense here are three: 1) Object: an unordained person, i.e., anyone -- human or not -- who is not a bhikkhu or bhikkhuni. 2) Effort: One reports one's actual attainment of a superior human state to such a person. 3) Result: The person immediately understands. Only two of these factors -- effort and result -- require explanation. Effort. The meaning of superior human state is discussed at length under Parajika 4. In brief, it covers (a) jhana, (b) the cognitive powers that can arise as its result, and (c) the transcendent states.""" .""" I remember going on retreats and being told by this and that teacher- oh yes this is progress, that is Bhanga. And of course atta-sanna loves such praise. Loooking back now it seems hilarious but I know that it was taken seriously, and I speak with other Buddhists who are speand a great deal of time trying to convince themselves or others that they 'keep sila' or they have 'samatha' or have this or that stage of insight. Why? It can't be like that, Dhamma makes one less concerned about self, not more. In the Vissudhimaggaatthakatha there is the story of two brothers who were monks and shared teh same hut. http://www.abhidhamma.org/visuddhimagga-11.htm#_ftnref6 One had take up the sitting practice(never lying down). But - being keen on Dhamma, not on other things he never told his brother. ?e"That Elder, it seems, was a sitter, but no one knew it. Then one night the other saw him by the light of a flash of lightning sitting up on his bed. He asked, ?gAre you a sitter, venerable sir??h. Out of fewness of wishes that his ascetic practice should get known, the Elder lay down. Afterwards he undertook the practice anew.""" The monk was modest. And the sitting practice is only at the level of sila, not higher. We can see how different things are these days, and this is because of the degree of delusion that is so strong among us all at this late stage of the sasana. When we believe we know better than the ancient sangha of the Theravada and the hundreds of thousands of monks since who preserved the teachings, carefully reciting them so that they have lasted to this day, what kind of cittas have such ideas... This is worth finding out. RobertK 44564 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:09pm Subject: The 10 Helpers...!!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Ten Keys with Inherent Success: These 10 precious points should be fully Understood: 1: Enthusiastic effort in advantageous states greatly helps. 2: Joyous Awareness of the body as only a transient form is to be cultivated. 3: Contact as the cause of mental fermentation & clinging is to be recognized. 4: The Conceit: 'I Am (my Own Body or Group)' is to be extracted & eliminated. 5: That Irrational Attention leads to loss & decline is to be thoroughly known. 6: Rational Attention, which discriminates cause & effect, is to be directed to. 7: That Immediate Absorption of mental Concentration is hard to penetrate to. 8: The Certainty of unshakable, & assured knowledge is to be sought & reached. 9: That all Being in Existence is maintained by Nutriment is to be fully learnt. 10: Absolute & Irreversible mental Release is to be realized & fully entered. These 10 things are real & true, exactly so & not otherwise, perfectly discovered & formulated by the Well-Gone-One... Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 34 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44565 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:20am Subject: Musings9 – Guarding, Restraint & Wise Attention sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Tep, Mike, KenH & All, (This series of ‘Musings’ are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) A short while ago I was discussing the Kundaliya Sutta and the guarding of the senses with Tep who gave this reference: >SN 46.6 Kundaliya Sutta. A summary of this sutta is available at http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/guide- tipitaka/guidetipitaka-06.htm "The Buddha advises him to cultivate and frequently practise restraint of the five senses. This will establish the threefold good conduct in deed, word and thought. When the threefold good conduct is cultivated and frequently practised, the Four Foundations of Mindfulness will be established. When the Four Foundations of Mindfulness are well established, the Seven Factors of Enlightenment will be developed. When the Seven Factors of Enlightenment are developed and frequently applied, the. Fruits of the Path and liberation by knowledge will be achieved".< .... We discussed how there is a guarding of the senses at any moments of sati (awareness), i.e whenever the cittas (moments of consciousness) are sobhana (beautiful)*. There are degrees and kinds of sati and restraint and not all restraint is at the level of satipatthana. I mentioned that in the context of ‘visuddhi’ or purity, I believe the ‘guarding’ or restraint always refers to satipatthana. In Bangkok, we also briefly discussed this sutta and how in the passage above the first example of ‘restraint of the five senses’ refers to sati which is not of the degree of satipatthana. There is guarding of the senses or indriya samavara sila with all kinds and degrees of sati, i.e. with all wholesome moments of consciousness. When there is generosity or metta or restraint from harming, sati and the other sobhana (beautiful) mental factors perform the function of ‘guarding’. When there are moments of satipatthana, sati, panna (understanding) and the other factors guard with wisdom. We discussed how the function of sati has different degrees, like a grain or pinch of salt compared to a heap of salt. We can’t compare the relative value of the guarding of sati at moments of satipatthana, even though the ‘flavour’ of it is the same for all kinds of sati. The javana (‘running through’ or ‘active’) cittas of the arahant ‘guard’ all the time, because by nature they are all sobhana cittas. This is why we read that the arahant is continuously mindful or the senses are continually guarded. This is in spite of the fact that the arahant’s javana cittas are not always accompanied by panna (wisdom) and they are therefore not always concerned with samatha or satipatthana bhavana (mental development). [Of course, in the arahant’s case, when there is satipatthana, it is not for the purpose of eradicating defilements as in our case]. With regard to guarding or restraint(samvara), we also had more discussions about yoniso manasikara (wise attention) and in particular to the aspect of samvara (restraint). When the javana cittas are sobhana, we can refer to the whole vithi (process) in which they arise as being sobhana. There is samvara or ‘guarding’ or yoniso manasikara (wise attention) at such a time. Naturally, when there are no wholesome cetasikas, there cannot be yoniso manasikara. If we are referring to the mano-dvaravajjana citta (mind-door adverting consciousness), the citta itself is kiriya (inoperative), without any hetu (root), so we cannot really say it is sobhana or yoniso or samvara. However, because the following javana cittas are sobhana, the whole process including this citta, can be referred to as sobhana or yoniso or samvara at such times for convenience. It is however wrong to refer to just the mano-dvaravajjana citta itself as yoniso manasikara. The important point, however, is that it’s not just a matter of understanding ‘the word’ or the definitions, but rather the meaning of what is implied in order for satipatthana to develop right now. Otherwise we can easily get hung up on definitions, I find. In this regard, we cannot pinpoint a particular citta in a series. We can’t directly know the moment to moment cittas arising because we’re simply not so wise as in the Buddha’s time. In the same way, with limited wisdom, we cannot pinpoint particular cetasikas (mental factors) such as manasikara (attention), sati or panna at anytime because they arise together and panna is not precise enough to single out particular states. Otherwise, it’s like trying to identify the ingredients of the curry as referred to in the texts. Satipatthana has to develop in order to precisely know characteristics when they appear. We discussed how ‘satipatthana follows’ rather than fixing or ordering the objects for awareness. Whichever way our life goes, whatever dhammas (realities) are apparent, satipatthana has to follow rather than lead. For example, I mentioned the example of someone having a stroke or being seriously ill in the last Musing. If there is awareness and understanding of dhammas appearing, there is no clinging, concern or expectation about recovery or what will happen in future at such times. Instead confidence in the dhamma grows. All realities are anatta and beyond anyone’s control. Seeing cannot be hearing, pleasant feeling cannot be unpleasant feeling, but such dhammas can be known and gradually understood so samvara (restraint) is cultivated. So often, we have expectations that life and the present realities should be of a particular kind, but actually even when sati grows, daily life remains very ordinary --just seeing, hearing and other experiences as usual. The only difference is that when satipatthana begins to develop naturally, there is momentary guarding of the senses at such times, instead of always thinking of a concept immediately. And so, when we read the following quotes and are urged to guard or restrain the senses, we can either a) read them as instruction manuals for Self to follow in order to try and control what arises, or b) begin to appreciate that the dhammas(realities)being referred to are anatta, i.e. conditioned dhammas arising by their own conditions. By reading, considering and seeing the value in satipatthana, it's a condition for it to arise: "Whenever the monk perceives a form with the eye, a sound with the ear, an odour with the nose, a taste with the tongue, an impression with the body, an object with the mind, he neither adheres to the appearance as a whole, nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things, greed and sorrow, would arise, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses" (MN 38). *** “In this world, whenever someone sees a visible object with the eye, he takes in its appearance (such as male or female), or its characteristics (such as expression or behaviour). If the faculty of sight is left unguarded, such depraved states of mind as covetousness and dissatisfaction stemming from the world overpower him as he fails to control his faculty of sight. He does not restrain his faculty of sight, does not keep watch over it, and thereby lacks control over it.... sound...odour....flavour....tangible object.....mind-object.....” (Dhsg 1352). ***** To stress that the guarding or restraint is performed by sati (and other sobhana factors), not by a self in the beginning, middle or end, the Vism (1, 100) states: “ And ... restraint of the sense faculties should be undertaken with mindfulness. For that is accomplished by mindfulness, because when the sense faculties’ functions are founded on mindfulness, there is no liability to invasion by covetousness and the rest.” ***** More to follow on sila, strategies and prescriptions (to be contd) Metta, Sarah *I’ve used sobhana (beautiful) here rather than kusala (wholesome) to include the kiriya (inoperative)cittas and cetasikas of the arahant which cannot be referred to as kusala. ======= 44566 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Team Tep sarahprocter... Hi Connie, --- connie wrote: > > > Hi, Tep, > > Some excerpts from a few of the posts a "Mahanidana" search turns up: .... S: Thanks so much for your assistance and also for the cheating dhamma numbers for Nina. I'm behind with lots of replies and reading so it helps a lot. Btw, I meant to include your name in my Musing just posted - I know you won't be (over)concerned by all the techno stuff:-). Speak soon, Metta, Sarah ======== 44567 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > I have the Co in Thai as well as in Pali of SN 35:24 Abandonment. > For the English I only have PTS. > I do not translate word by word. .... Thank you so much for providing this so promptly and also to Suan, Larry, RobK, James and yourself for the further feedback. I plan to add more in due course too. (If anyone wants to read more on the meaning of pahana(abandoning), see U.P. under 'abandoning'). Metta, Sarah ======= 44568 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcaka dhammas. sarahprocter... Hi Chris, Nina & Geoff, --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > The Pali for v. 372 is: > Natthi Jhaana.m apa~n~nassa > pa~n~naa natthi ajhaayato > Yamhi jhaana~n ca pa~n~naa ca > sa ve nibbaanasantike. > > The English is: > "There is no concentration in one who lacks wisdom, nor is there > wisdom in him who lacks concentration. In whom are both > concentration and wisdom, he, indeed, is in the presence of > Nibbaana." (Narada Thera) > ..... S: that's helpful. I think it's useful to reflect on the two kinds of jhana here. From memory, at least one or two of these posts refer specifically the Dhp verse and commentary. Rob K, you (Chris) or someone may like to check and requote - I need to rest my arm:-/. Jhana - Two Meanings 3184, 11524, 30795, 33436, 33532, 38589, 39500 Metta, Sarah ========= 44569 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas ashkenn2k Hi Nina and Larry Just like to add what Nina has said, concepts are diverse and perceive differently in different culture. A conept of the tree can held great esteem to some people but to others they are just money to be make. To me, such diveristy of such concept, make a very difficult to have a standardise way of looking at dhamma. In fact, Buddha stress a lot on the five aggregates, to see at the most basic, because this breaks on the our hold of concept, especially the concept of a self. This fundamentally built a systematic approach to whatever we experience through the six senses. Ken O 44570 From: "Dan D." Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:21am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 171 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (b) onco111 Dear All, Interesting passages from "Cetasikas" and Vism: > The Visuddhimagga (IV, 63) explains how there can be a greater > sense of urgency and how the mind should be encouraged. We > read: > * > "How does he encourage the mind on an occasion when it should be > encouraged? When his mind is listless owing to sluggishness in the > exercise of understanding or to failure to attain the bliss of peace, > then he should stimulate it by reviewing the eight grounds for a sense > of urgency. "Should be encouraged" and "should stimulate it by reviewing" sound an awful lot like instructions, do they not? "Do these things in order to get these results" rather than "When these things are done, these things result." In the first case, there is a sense of "I must do; I am doing"--moha; in the latter case, there is a sense of "These results arose from these conditions"--amoha. "Shoulds" are dangerous traps. Dan 44571 From: Ken O Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:26am Subject: [dsg] Right livelihood ashkenn2k Hi Nina, Rob K, Sarah, Jon and everyone One got this question always on my mind about right livelihood. Since we cannot trade in live animals, for example pet dogs, can we trade in dog food, accessories, clothings etc Ken O 44572 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Team Tep buddhistmedi... Hi Connie (Sarah, Nina, Chris, James, Kel, Howard, KenO, KenH and more) - Thanks to Connie for the team spirit. Also I thank her for kicking the ball to start the series. First, let's slowly discuss the background [Mahanidana sutta atthakatha] before focusing on the sutta itself, after I have a copy of the B. Bodhi's book. Interestingly important points from Connie's excerpts (messages 12419, and 14917): -- Anatta has depth of penetration, it is a "deep" matter. -- The meaning of conciousness as "emptiness and abscence of an agent" is deep. -- "Deep" is also the meaning of volitional formations: volitionally forming, accumulating, lustfulness, and lustlessness. -- Consciousness is said to be the distinctive basis for the misapprehension of self, i.e. 'this is mine, this I am, this is self'. Tep's Comments: # Given the right view that consciousness is empty, there would be no misapprehension of self and we would automatically have the right understanding of the realities. # Our right view (clearly seeing and knowing the realities) is difficult to arise because of volitional formations. Are my above deductions correct? My next email will review the messages #19499,21601, 27710, and 31644 as suggested by Connie. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Connie, > > --- connie wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Tep, > > > > Some excerpts from a few of the posts a "Mahanidana" search turns up: > .... > S: Thanks so much for your assistance and also for the cheating dhamma > numbers for Nina. I'm behind with lots of replies and reading so it helps > a lot. > > Btw, I meant to include your name in my Musing just posted - I know you > won't be (over)concerned by all the techno stuff:-). > > Speak soon, > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== 44573 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:25am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 171 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (b) buddhistmedi... Dear Dan - Your remark was good! > > "How does he encourage the mind on an occasion when it should be encouraged? When his mind is listless owing to sluggishness in the > > exercise of understanding or to failure to attain the bliss of peace, > > then he should stimulate it by reviewing the eight grounds for a sense of urgency. > > "Should be encouraged" and "should stimulate it by reviewing" sound an awful lot like instructions, do they not? > T: They are instructions to the worldlings. Sincerely, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > Dear All, > Interesting passages from "Cetasikas" and Vism: > > The Visuddhimagga (IV, 63) explains how there can be a greater 44574 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right livelihood htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: Hi Nina, Rob K, Sarah, Jon and everyone One got this question always on my mind about right livelihood. Since we cannot trade in live animals, for example pet dogs, can we trade in dog food, accessories, clothings etc Ken O -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Ken O, Very interesting question. What I am totally sure is that 'the livelihood of bhikkhus' is 'right livelihood'. When 'this noble livelihood cannot be ours' we all have to choose the least contaminated livelihood. Nina and Robert will have good answers. If I may, I would like to know your own opinion on 'trading in dog food, accessories, clothings etc'. My opinion is that the livelihood in question is free of bad mood. Dogs cannot search clothings for their own use even though they may look for warmer places. If metta prevail while working that trading, it will be free of akusala. With regards, Htoo Naing 44575 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Team Tep / Review messages # 16499 and 21601 buddhistmedi... Hi all - In this post we continue to review two more "useful posts" about the Mahanidana Sutta plus its commentaries. # 19499: A dialogue between RobertK and Herman. Herman asked if the Eight Stage of Release was conceptual, since there was "no longer any idea of sensation at all". RobertK: Yes, this is a description of one of the higher jhanas. And the object there is a concept actually. It cannot lead to insight while the jhana is existing but immediately upon leaving the jhana there can be, for the one who understands the way of vipassana, insight into the factors of mind that occured during that jhana (and that have passed away instantly. Some detail in RobertK's reply is given below - # The Eight Stages of Release (vimokkha) are: 1.Possessing form (material shape) he sees forms. 2.Not perceiving forms internally he sees forms. 3.He is intent only on the thought `it is well'. 4.Passing entirely beyond perceptions of form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, not attending to perceptions of diversity, (he perceives) "space is infinite", and attains and abides in the infinity of space. 5.Passing entirely beyond the stage of the infinity of space, (he perceives) "consciousness is infinite", and attains and abides in the stage of the infinity of consciousness. 6.Passing entirely beyond the stage of the infinity of consciousness, (he perceives) "there is nothing", and attains and abides in the stage of nothingness. 7.Passing entirely beyond the stage of nothingness, he attains and abides in the stage of neither consciousness nor non-consciousness. 8.Passing entirely beyond the stage of neither consciousness nor non- consciousness, he attains and abides in the stage of cessation of perception and feeling. (Digha, ii, 111). # The Buddha notes that one who has mastered all these jhanas PLUS has extinguished the asava is one who is ceto-vimutti panna vimutti (liberated by both heart and wisdom). I.e. he is the highest type of arahant who has mastered both samatha and vipassana. The paragraph quoted is not referring to the sukkhavipassaka arahant who has eliminated the asava but didn't use the eight mundane jhanas (which are desribed above) as basis for insight. Only if these mundane jhanas are seen – upon leaving the jhana- with insight wisdom can they be the basis for emancipation. # The atthakatha says (bodhi p103) "liberated by wisdom" having brought about the [future] non-occurrence of the mental body (nama) and material body, he is liberated solely by the power of wisdom without realising the eight emancipations . This type is fivefold: the dry- insight meditator (sukkhavipassaka) and those who attain arahantship after having become established in [only] one or another of the four jhanas." #21601: A dialogue between RobertK and RobertM. RobM commented on Venerable Ananda's enlightenment: After spending almost his entire adult life listening to the Buddha and memorizing every word the Buddha said, conditions and Ananda's accumulations were ripe for the event of enlightenment to occur. RobertK : The commentary to the Mahanidana sutta (Bodhi page 63) notes that learning was to "repeatedly studying the texts under revered teachers, listening to explanations of their meaning, questioning about knotty points and retaining in mind their meaning." It says "for those who are highly learned, namarupaparichedda nana(distinguishing of nama and rupa) becomes as evident as a bed and chair in a small room illuminted by a lamp, and Ananda was chief of those who are highly learned." It also explains his great parami from past lives; such as 100,000 aeons of time ago, when he aspired to be become the personal attendant of a Buddha. "..thus he was endowed with decisive supporting conditions (pubekata punnata )from the past.." T: The commentarial suggestion that the namarupa-parichedda-nana can be achieved by "studying the texts under revered teachers, listening to explanations of their meaning, questioning about knotty points and retaining in mind their meaning" is misleading. It invites the reader to think that intellectual understanding (somewhat similar to the same understanding obtained in a classroom) is enough to cause this vipassana-nana to arise. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Hi Connie (Sarah, Nina, Chris, James, Kel, Howard, KenO, KenH and > more) - > > Thanks to Connie for the team spirit. Also I thank her for kicking the ball > to start the series. First, let's slowly discuss the background > [Mahanidana sutta atthakatha] before focusing on the sutta itself, after I > have a copy of the B. Bodhi's book. > 44576 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 0:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcaka dhammas. nilovg Thank you, Christine. I think this text may refer to lokuttara citta and this is accompanied by concentration to the degree of absorption, also for those who are dry insight workers. Also, as Sarah says, we have to keep in mind the two meanings of jhana; not forgetting the three lakkhanas, otherwise nibbaana cannot be attained. Nina. op 19-04-2005 13:15 schreef Christine Forsyth op cforsyth1@...: > > > Hello Nina (and Geoff), > > The Pali for v. 372 is: > Natthi Jhaana.m apa~n~nassa > pa~n~naa natthi ajhaayato > Yamhi jhaana~n ca pa~n~naa ca > sa ve nibbaanasantike. > > The English is: > "There is no concentration in one who lacks wisdom, nor is there > wisdom in him who lacks concentration. In whom are both > concentration and wisdom, he, indeed, is in the presence of > Nibbaana." (Narada Thera) > 44577 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 0:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings9 – Guarding, Restraint & Wise Attention nilovg Dear Sarah, excellent summary, everything clearly explained. Also manasikaara is well explained. Nina. op 19-04-2005 14:20 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > A short while ago I was discussing the Kundaliya Sutta and the guarding of > the senses with Tep who gave this reference: > >> SN 46.6 Kundaliya Sutta. A summary of this > sutta is available at http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/guide- > tipitaka/guidetipitaka-06.htm > > "The Buddha advises him to cultivate and frequently practise > restraint of the five senses. 44578 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:40pm Subject: Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañ£¡«a dhammas. sunnaloka Hi Nina, We have very different views. We come from very different Dhamma perspectives and backgrounds. And although I consider myself a nonsectarian, there probably would be very little (theory) that we could actually agree on. You are right (we can agree on this at least;-)). It’s simply not worth debating over. We must all do the best with what we ‘think’ we know. I certainly include myself in this category. It has been good conversing with you. Thank you for answering all my abidhamma questions. Metta, Geoff 44579 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañ£¡®a dhammas. sunnaloka Hi Robert, R: When we believe we know better than the ancient sangha of the Theravada and the hundreds of thousands of monks since who preserved the teachings, carefully reciting them so that they have lasted to this day, what kind of cittas have such ideas... This is worth finding out. -------------------------- I’m not a Theravadin Robert. Personally I believe that the not-so-‘ancient sangha of the Theravada’ totally and completely misses the Dhamma. It is nihilistic and substantialistic and rigidly dualistic, etc., etc., etc.. But it's true that they did amazingly and carefully preserve the Sutta Pitaka and Vinaya Pitaka without corrupting them with their (IMO degenerate) views. And for this I am grateful. Yes one should remain humble and hold one’s beliefs and views close to one’s chest. But when I come to DSG and see venerable teachers whom I respect getting dismissed as having an invalid view, then something should possibly be said. But it’s just not worth it. If people wish to separate the path into ‘those who practice jhana’ and ‘those who don’t,’ so be it. I’ve stated very clearly and at some considerable length just what my reasons for discussing this issue are. I was only ever directly discussing my own experience -- which I realize is completely inappropriate -- I realized this when I stated my own experience, and said so. I knew I should have never gone this far in this particular venue of DSG. But what has been said has been said. So be it. Metta, Geoff 44580 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:52pm Subject: Re: Lay people who heard Buddha & Awakened sunnaloka Hi Lisa, L: Sunnaloka (Geoff) I would love to met Ven. Thrangu Rinpoche just to see that smile. ---------------------- You can see his smile, and also find out about his teaching schedule, here: http://www.rinpoche.com/ L: "The Life And Teachings Of Naropa" Translated from the original Tibetan with philosophical commentary based on the oral transmmission by Herbert V. Guenther. ------------------------- A profound teaching. What is it Tilopa keeps telling Naropa? Something to the effect of "Look at your own mind -- the mysterious (secret, wink,wink) home of the dakini." It’s been quite a few years since I read it last. Somewhat unfortunate is Mr. Guenther’s peculiar translating skills. He was a fairly early pioneer of Tibetan Buddhist translation, and used many terms borrowed I believe, from Western existential/idealistic philosophy -- terms like ‘being-in-its-beingness’ which if I remember correctly is his translation of dharmakaya. So his translations, important as they were at the time, make for quite terse reading. The upside I guess, is that it can give us a different way of looking at Dharma. On a related note, Trungpa Rinpoche gave a series of teachings on this topic that were published by Shambhala Pub.. Can't remember the title off hand, but did read it years ago. It may help you negotiate through some of Guenther's jargon. L: "Dakini's Warm Breath" The Feminine Principle in Tibetan Buddhism," by Judith Simmer-Brown. -------------------------- When I was at Gampo Abbey (Cape Breton, N.S., Canada) for Yarne (annual winter retreat) a couple of years back, Judith came for a week and taught on the dakini principle (she’s an acharya in Trungpa Rinpoche’s lineage, as is Ani Pema Chodron). Her teaching was good, but maybe because of the ‘esoteric’ nature of the subject matter, and the fact that not all of the listeners were tantrikas (including myself -- could never get past the 10,000th prostration ;-) the teaching, like the book, remained mostly on the superficial level of symbolic understanding -- never really penetrated the depths so to speak. But very good nevertheless. If you haven’t read it yet -- seek out a copy of "Sky Dancer" translated by Keith Dowman. It’s the "secret autobiography" of Yeshe Tsogyal. This is the real deal as far as the Nyingma Dzogchen teachings relate to the dakini principle. So so so very rich. The mind can’t help but find its essential nature when presented with such profound pathways. Excerpts from Sky Dancer can be found here: http://www.keithdowman.net/books/sd.htm There’s also a wealth of Mahamudra and Dzogchen materials on Dowman’s site. L: "The Perfection of Wisdom In Eight Thousand LInes & Verse Summary," Translated by Edward Conze. ----------------- Conze was also another early translator, and although some are critical of his translations, he was my first introduction to the Prajnaparamita Sutras and so I’ve always kind of had a soft spot for his translations. "Mother of the Buddhas" by Lex Hixon is another worthy read as it’s an ‘experiential meditation/translation’ of the 8000 line PP.. Lex Hixon was a scholar (phd. I believe), profound Sufi mystic, and Zen master!! Slight overachiever :-0 His was a very big mind. His books are all very good stuff -- highly inspirational -- and cuts right through all the sectarian b.s.. L: five thousand Bodhisattvas in the assembly were all able to enter the gate of nondualism and to learn to accept the truth of birthlessness. -------------------------- I first came across the famous "form=emptiness+emptiness=form" of the PP Hridaya Sutra when I was 18 or 19 (many years ago now -- but what is time anyway?? -- "sun-faced buddha, moon-faced buddha" -- Blue Cliff Record, case #3: "Master Ma is ill"); anyhow, I’ve spent most of my life since that time chewing on this (apparent) paradox. Like chewing on zero, so to speak. But I wouldn’t have it any other way. PP nondualism (Vimalakirti is PP Sutra as I’m sure you know) is the only gate -- gateless gate. Somewhere Wu-men says: "If you pass through this barrier -- you walk the universe Alone...." Errs on the side of monism -- but just how is one to say the whole thing while simultaneously remaining free of error?? (Trick question ;-)) L: I've been working my way through Nagarjuna's "Seventy Stanzas" ------------------------ In a similar vein -- how can we ever hope to wrap our arms around this serpent king? L: I needed another system to compare Madhyamika against because I really struggle with the total negation without a positive turn around that Madhyamika seems to present..(I still feel like cursing sometimes when I read certain passages! hahaha) --------------------------- Is the urge to curse a negation? hahaha Negate everything and what is left? Suchness, suchness, and always and forever suchness. Who could ask for anything more. IMO, although it seems frustrating at times, it’s also thoroughly transcendent to be comfortable with uncertainty -- and beyond that -- comfortable with nothing. Ani Pema Chodron often translates sunyata as "groundlessness." She says that the purpose of sunyata is to continually and completely "pull the rug outfrom under our feet." When we realize that our every notion is a baseless conceptual fabrication, then we can step into the unknown -- what J. Krishnamurti aptly called "freedom from the known." He also aptly stated that "truth is a pathless land." A very fruitional view -- somewhat akin to Zen, Dzogchen, Mahamudra, and the Thai Kammatthana forest tradition, all of which are to some extent practice traditions very sceptical of tenant systems and analytical philosophizing. L: Prayogika-jnana, knowledge held on the stage of preparatory practice. 2. nirvikalpa-jnana, non-discriminative wisdom or knowledge that is often called "fundamental wisdom" in the Sino-Japanese Buddhist traditions, and 3. tat-prsthalabdha-jnana, knowledge acquired subsequent to that. Knowledge (1) that is, preparatory knowledge is in the direction of "ascent" as it aims towards the fundamental wisdom. the latter knowledge, (3), that is, subsequent knowledge, is in the direction of "descent" as it results from the fundmental wisdom. -------------------------- Yes the Yogacarins get back into the whole stages of paths, bodhisattva bhumis, and levels of jnana, etc.. They also get back into the whole abhidharma thing. It can be helpful, but (IMO) it’s ultimately just another tenant system which is attempting to describe ‘reality’ in conventional, conditional, and therefore relative terms. In the end it must also be discarded as just more seeking. L: I also looked into this system because I wondered how does what is without form walk in this world and talk to us enough to wake us to our own self made misery? Gotama could of just kept on sitting under his Bodhitree...why did he turn around and come back?.... Mahayana really gets into this issue. --------------------------------- Tathagatagarbha teachings state that it’s buddha-nature’s nature to return to its source. For example, The Lion's Roar Of Queen Srimala Sutra states: [H]ence it is worthy of the Tathágata-garbha to have aversion towards suffering as well as longing, eagerness, and aspiration towards Nirvana. Full text here: http://www.buddhistinformation.com/ida_b_wells_memorial_sutra_library/ the_lions_roar_0f_queen_srimala_sutra.htm These teachings also state that buddha-nature is a mystery. I like that -- the idea that some essential things don’t need to be rationally explained because there simply is no rational explanation -- it’s beyond the rational mind: What was/is before the big bang?... All things return to the one; to what does the one return?... What was your true face before your parents were born?... etc., etc.. I’m coming across like a zennist today for some reason ... but no apologies. L: I think Abhidhamma will also help me strengthen this area of study for me....I think it will, I may end up with a sankhara attack of cursings again! hahaha ----------------------------------- If you’re interested, you can check out my site, which uses abhidhamma analysis to illustrate/arive at emptiness. The site is here: http://emptyuniverse.tripod.com/ You can also e-mail me at emptyuniverse@... if you wish to talk some more. I won’t be coming back to DSG any more I don’t think. I’m coming from a very different perspective than DSG. There would just never be much fruitful or productive discourse, as I don’t particularly enjoy constantly refuting, criticizing, and debating -- but with what is being presented here, I just can’t find much common ground, etc.. Anyway, you can also e-mail me at the same address through the link on the contact page of the emptyuniverse site. L: One more book and the reason why I looked into Tibetan Buddhism. "Dzogchen, The Self-Perfected State," by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, Translated from the Italian by John Shane. ----------------------------------- Oh yes -- I’ve never met Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, or anyone directly associated with him -- but I’m quite familiar with his books, esp. "The Crystal and the Way of Light," and Dzogchen texts translated under his guidance such as "Supreme Source," the Dzogchen mind division tantra, and Longchenpa’s concise guru yoga instructions on this tantra, translated as "You Are the Eyes of the World." These texts were my main textual inspiration for a long time. Very good stuff. I’d suggest that Rinpoche is probably all about rigpa (having never met him I can‘t say for sure). L: This is my Lama friends teacher and this book helped me find him. Now that has become the most amazing journey of all which has just begun and ended at the same time! ....my first introduction to Dzogchen is when a friend asked my Lama friend if I needed empowerments for a certain lesson I was going to learn and he told her, "It's all in the mind." ------------------------- Sounds right. Sometimes the Tibetan traditions can get just as stuffy and orthodox as any other tradition -- but it seems your friend knows how to cut through all that. Good luck to you Lisa. It’s been a pleasure meeting you. You know where to reach me if you wish to converse. Metta, Geoff 44581 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:57pm Subject: Re: Goodbye DSG (for now anyway) sunnaloka Hi everyone at DSG, I’m going to say goodbye for now as I don’t find that what is generally being discussed here resonates with me on any level, and I’m just not very interested in critical refutation and debate. If the Theravadin commentarial path paradigm works for anyone, that is great -- who am I to criticize. It’s just not my upaya --that’s all. I firmly believe that the path is functional and not rigidly fundamentalist. Thanks for answering my Abhidhamma Pitaka questions. May you all be well. With omnidirectional metta, Geoff P.S. If anyone’s interested they can check out my (?heterodox?) interpretation of the Pali Sutta Pitaka at my site: http://emptyuniverse.tripod.com/ You can also e-mail me through the contact page of the emptyuniverse site. 44582 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 3:29pm Subject: Vism.XIV,153 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 153. (xxxi) 'Specific neutrality' (tatra-majjhattataa--lit. 'neutrality in regard thereto') is neutrality (majjhattataa) in regard to those states [of consciousness and consciousness-concomitants arisen in association with it]. It has the characteristic of conveying consciousness and consciousness-concomitants evenly. Its function is to prevent deficiency and excess, or its function is to inhibit partiality. It is manifested as neutrality. It should be regarded as like a conductor (driver) who looks with equanimity on thoroughbreds progressing evenly. 44583 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:20pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 / Mike's Requested Citations buddhistmedi... Hi Mike ( and interested DSG members ) - There are several more suttas about Sotapatti that I have found at AccessToInsight.com. Below is my selection from the larger set of suttas translated by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu. 1. AN V.25 Anugghita Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-025.html 2. AN X.92 Vera Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an10-092.html 3. MN 2 Sabbasava Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002-tb0.html "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing". Tep's remark: here we see how appropiate attention (yonisomanasikara) to the 4 Noble Truths can eradicate the lower three fetters. It is amazing! 4. AN V.179 Gihi Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05- 179.html#anatha 5. AN VII.51 Avyakata Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an07-051.html 6. SN LV.30 Licchavi Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn55-030.html 7. SN LV.1 Raja Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn55-001.html 8. SN XXV Okkanta-samyutta, Khandha Vagga (group of suttas) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/index.html#Okkan ta Mike, I am not sure this is the kind of "citations" you wanted. Please kindly advise. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > Hi Again Tep, > (snipped) > > (3) There are a few suttas instructing laypeople how to become > > Sotapanna and Anagami, Mike. > > Thanks, Tep, I have read them. I don't have them indexed though-- could you > cite them for us? I think it would be especially valuable if we can find > instances of the Buddha advising laypeople to go to the roots of trees or > attend retreats and so on. > . > > mike > 44584 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Breathing. buddhistmedi... Hi Nina, Kel and Mike - Thank you very much, Nina, for initiation of a dialogue on breathing that is an excellent ground for the Anapanassati Dicussion, Part II. [To Mike] > I like your dialogue very much. > I always find the anapanasati difficult to understand. As Mike says, > breathing in long etc.--seems to me to be a concept. > Yes, but the citta which attends to it is a nama, non-self. It has to be > realized as such. Citta is one of the four applications of mindfulness that > one should attend to. Also, even one knows that breathing is long, there is > still rupa impinging, and hardness or heat may appear. > [ To Kel] > Kelvin, could you please ask your teachers? We need also anutiikas for this. > I have always found these phrases difficult. > Nina, I understand that your message was directed to Mike and Kel, so it should be more appropriate for me to step aside until Mike and Kel have responded. Respectfully yours, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Mike, Tep,Kelvin. > I like your dialogue very much. 44585 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:35pm Subject: Re: Musings9 – Guarding, Restraint & Wise Attention buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah - Thank you for (unintentionally) reminding me of the Kundaliya Sutta, which helps me to remember that I have not answered that message of yours. I apologize for my error. This Musings9 – Guarding, Restraint & Wise Attention is a classic of all discussions. I agree with Nina that it was very well written. Congratulations! I will keep the following well-said statements in my notebook: -- There is guarding of the senses or indriya samavara sila with all kinds and degrees of sati, i.e. with all wholesome moments of consciousness. -- The javana (`running through' or `active') cittas of the arahant `guard' all the time, because by nature they are all sobhana cittas. -- Naturally, when there are no wholesome cetasikas, there cannot be yoniso manasikara. -- It's not just a matter of understanding `the word' or the definitions, but rather the meaning of what is implied in order for satipatthana to develop right now. -- Actually even when sati grows, daily life remains very ordinary --just seeing, hearing and other experiences as usual. Thank you for writing about the Dhamma that is very convincing. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > Dear Nina, Tep, Mike, KenH & All, > > (This series of `Musings' are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with > A.Sujin) > 44586 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:02pm Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) philofillet Hi James, and all > > I find nothing wrong with bringing people back to the present > > moment; but, really, there is nothing extraordinary about that. I > > could remind you to come back to the present moment until the cows > > come home, is that really going to make a change in your mind? If > > K. Sujin really wants to help people, she needs to give them the > > tools so that they will come back to the present moment without > > depending on her frequent reminders. She should be making people > > self-reliant, not dependent. > Let me ramble on this point a bit. It's very interesting and important. As I said in the last post, feel free to drop this whenever you'd like. No need to push ourselves to debate when the desire (chanda) to do so is not there. But I do enjoying exchanging ideas with you and as I've said before you often say things that stick with me and make me think about things from a different angle. First of all, of course it's a gross simplification of mine to say that Kh Sujin simply reminds people to come back to present realities. There is much more going on than that, but the "is there seeing now?" kind of thing is what will first strike newcomers, who are accustomed to more speculation in discussion. She doesn't engage in speculation. Sometimes it can be very abrupt and a bit offputting, to tell the truth, to hear someone's tentative question, about fear and pain at the moment of death, for example, put aside with a quick call for a return to present realities. What some have called a "cold shower", maybe. She has the person's well-being in mind, of course, because when we are brought back to present realities, there is much less fear arising. (If it does, we can be aware of it as a conditioned nama, and it loses a lot of its power right there, even if our understanding is only intellectual.) Nina has often said that Kh Sujin doesn't like to be called a teacher she wants to be thought of as a friend in Dhamma. I think I've quoted this before, but I like St Exupery's definition of a friend as someone who "leads you back to yourself." Well, I guess our Dhamma friends lead us back to not-self! As you say, being brought back to present realities will not change our mind. Our minds are running on tracks that have been laid down over many lifetimes. It is wrong to expect to lay down fresh tracks in the short run. But all the reminders accumulate, with a conditioning power that depends on our capacity to be mindful of them and the depth of the intellectual understanding that accompanies our reflection on them. Again and again and again we are reminded to be aware of what's happening now. There is an example today, in Nina's resonses to me in the Cetasika corner. THe question was how do we develop right effort, and I answered something vague, and Nina came back with "be aware of what's happening now!" - there is seeing, thinking, rupa rather than a computer etc. Again and again we are brought back, and in that moment there is (for me at least) a moment of liberation from stories. I sit here and maybe speculate about how James will respond to this, whether he will be bored or irritated or maybe approve or what. And then a moment of awareness, it is all nama and rupa. I let go of stories about Phil, about James, there is freedom from stories. I think that's why I feel light on my toes these days, though it could be our new digs and the nice weather. I think I'm just letting go of stories far momre often, because of these small reminders from Dhamma friends. (I carry pocket notebooks with me and take a look at them now and then during the day, maybe when waiting for the train or during a coffee break or whatever. And there are always reminders in there as well.) If > > K. Sujin really wants to help people, she needs to give them the > > tools so that they will come back to the present moment without > > depending on her frequent reminders. She should be making people > > self-reliant, not dependent. Tools. Self-reliant. Both words are loded with danger, in my opinion. I know the Buddha told people to be self-reliant, but if he knew Westerners were going to be in his audience he might have worded it differently! We in the west are conditioned from childhood to carve out remarkable lives, to be individualistic, to be independent, to be self-reliant. I think we are prone to have very strong self-identities, much stronger, in general, than Asians. Is it the influence of western philosophy, the Greeks, I don't know. I think this is why we tend to grasp at results in the short run and seek techniques and tools. I favour smething more intuitive, less explicit. The Abhidhamma is very explicit, of course, but it doesn't leave room for explicit techniques to apply it tout de suite for increased awareness. I know you've heard this a thousand times before, but I really think it's true - when we seek techniques and expect results from them we are operating in a deluded belief that there is a self that can control cittas - and this is contrary to the teaching that makes the Buddha unique, the teaching of anatta. So we have to be patient, and intuitive. The reminders will arise more and more often through our own reflection, without help from our friends. Or will it? Who knows. I once wrote "We cannot see something and be someone at the same time." I liked that. I write it now as I reminder to myself and anyone else who reads this. It's really very liberating, in a momentary way. And then the concepts come pouring back and we are swept away again until the next reminder to be aware of what's happening in the moment, from a friend, or through ourselves, but in either case it's due to conditions. A long ramble there, James. If you could write anything that would inspire me towards a more intentional approach towards developing mindfulness, I would be glad to hear of it. And as I said, feel free to drop this at any time if you don't feel inclined to continue, and the same will go for me. Metta, Phil 44587 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 kenhowardau Hi Charles, We still disagree on the meaning of the Kalama Sutta. You believe that rejecting the Buddha's teaching can sometimes be a good (kusala) thing to do. I won't try to change your mind because I don't think it matters much: It is only when we misunderstand some part of the teaching that we are ever likely to reject it. So our emphasis should be on right understanding. ---------------------------- C: > > > What do you mean by "saddha, vicikiccha, adosa, dosa, and so on?" ............................... KH: > > At any point in time, including now, there are really only paramattha dhammas. The reason for studying the Buddha's teaching is to know those dhammas. > > ................................. C: > The only one I recognize is dosa, i.e., suffering. ----------------------------- We should both make an effort to learn more Abhidhamma. Then, when we read the suttas, we will always know that the Buddha was talking about the five khandhas (dhammas that arise in a single moment and then disappear forever). Otherwise, we will think concepts (people, places and stories) are real - and dhammas are not real. As I said in a previous post, the Abhidhamma might seem dry and impersonal but that is, after all, the flavour of anatta. So we are making progress. :-) Ken H 44588 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:13pm Subject: Re: Right livelihood dhammanando_... Hi Ken O, > One got this question always on my mind about right > livelihood. Since we cannot trade in live animals, for > example pet dogs, can we trade in dog food, accessories, > clothings etc Are you referring to the five wrong trades of the Va.nijjaa Sutta, or is it something else you have in mind? In this Sutta I don't see how even pets would be included, let alone accessories for them. ''pa~ncimaa, bhikkhave, va.nijjaa upaasakena akara.niiyaa. katamaa pa~nca? satthava.nijjaa, sattava.nijjaa, ma.msava.nijjaa, majjava.nijjaa, visava.nijjaa -- imaa kho, bhikkhave, pa~nca va.nijjaa upaasakena akara.niiyaa''ti. sattama.m. (A. iii. 208) Discourse on Trades These five trades, bhikkhus, should not be undertaken by an upasaka. What five? Trading in weapons, trading in living beings, trading in flesh, trading in intoxicants, trading in poisons. These then, bhikkhus, are five trades that should not be undertaken by an upasaka. In the Atthakathaa "trading in living beings" (sattava.nijjaa) is glossed as "selling humans" (manussavikkaya). In the .Tiikaa it is clarified as referring to enslaving people (abhujissabhaavakara.na) in order to sell them. This wrong trading includes enslaving humans for sale, having others enslave them, or selling those whom others have enslaved (i.e. on their own initiative). As for trading in flesh (ma.msava.nijjaa), this is glossed in the Atthakathaa as "the rearing and selling of animals, for example, pigs and deer". The .Tiikaa adds that this refers to the rearing and killing of these in order to obtain and sell their flesh, or causing others to rear and kill them. However, unlike with slave-trading, there is no objection in this case to selling the flesh of an animal that one has not killed or had someone else kill, since wrongness in the case of trading in flesh arises from one's being the cause of the killing (vadhahetu). Best wishes, Dhammanando 44589 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:51pm Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hi James, and all Hi Phil, I will reply to your two posts but probably not for another day. I have meetings after school since it is the end of the quarter . Metta, James 44590 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 0:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Goodbye DSG (for now anyway) sarahprocter... Hi Geoff, --- sunnaloka wrote: > > > Hi everyone at DSG, > > I’m going to say goodbye for now as I don’t find that > what is generally being discussed here resonates with me on any > level, and I’m just not very interested in critical refutation > and debate. .... S: And yet I’ve just looked at your excellent website and found plenty that resonates with me there. I didn’t get far, but why not share short extracts from your articles, starting with the introduction on Sunna-loka and moving onto panna for people to read here and discuss if they like (as I do with Cetasikas, perhaps)??. For example, from the beginning: ***** >An Empty World (Sunna-loka) The subduing of the conceit 'I am'— That is truly the ultimate bliss. —Muccalinda Sutta Look upon the world as empty. . . Uproot the view of self and thereby go beyond death. —Sutta Nipata (v. 1119) Emptiness is not some sort of dogmatic principle or philosophical ideal, rather it is a way of experiencing reality without the filter of 'self'—a self that manifests as the various concepts and other forms of self-seeking that we habitually identify with. And it is this egoistic identity, this self-view (atta-ditthi), which causes ongoing subtle (and not so subtle) dissatisfaction and emotional conflict in our lives. In fact, our habitual identification with the mind's ongoing inner dialogue is the root cause of the majority of the collective suffering in this world.< ***** S: These are such good quotes and comments and you have a very readable style. There’s so much more to discuss in just these lines – why not give us a bit more of a chance to find common ground. Of course there will always be some members whose views resonate more with our own, but usually imho, the best discussions are with those whose views don’t resonate and with whom one has to work hard to find mutual ground. It does take goodwill and patience all round and you’ve shown plenty of these qualities in your various discussions to date, Geoff. You have a lot to contribute here. .... >If the Theravadin commentarial path paradigm works for > anyone, that is great -- who am I to criticize. It’s just not > my upaya --that’s all. I firmly believe that the path is > functional and not rigidly fundamentalist. Thanks for answering my > Abhidhamma Pitaka questions. May you all be well. .... S: No one has to accept all or any of ‘the commentarial path paradigm’ here, though I believe it is one of the few places where we can discuss commentarial notes freely. You’re very well read and you raised some extremely difficult and subtle points from the Abhidhamma that are difficult to respond to without access to the commentaries for some of us, but that’s fine – we all set our own parameters. Until very recently, we had access to very little commentarial work in English - just the Vism and Atth. Even now, there’s really very little still. I personally find it helpful and feel it enriches the suttas and Abhidhamma for me. No one else here has to share that feeling at all. Yes, we all ‘come from different Dhamma perspectives and backgrounds’ as you say – what we share in common is an interest in discussing the teachings from the perspective on the homepage – that’s all. It’s true that none of us like to see our views or those of our respected or venerable teachers being dismissed, but I think you’ll find we all experience this here (even the founders, I assure you!!). Can we ‘practice’ or learn about our mental states when challenged at such times? I also don’t accept at all that it was inappropriate for you to discuss your own experiences in the jhana threads. I appreciated your openness. I think we may all have different definitions of jhana, however. For example, you wrote that ‘jhana....is nothing more than an uplifted, concentrated mind...’. Jeff, many people here or friends have followed extreme practices of one kind or another, have spent long and intense periods in monasteries or forest traditions and have experienced ‘otherworldly’ kinds of experiences which as you say do not represent jhanas or any kind of insights. In fact, many of us would see them as quite the opposite – as delusional states of one kind or other now and perhaps this is why we tend to be cautious. Perhaps you don't agree with this approach? As the Sn quote you give above suggests, the most important aspect of the teaching is the uprooting of the idea of self and the clinging to oneself or one’s experiences in anyway. I don’t see how your views expressed to Lisa, for example, that ‘we are ‘in’ our innate consciousness all the time......etc’ and references to ‘our innate natural state....which is unconditioned (asankhata)’ either conform with the uprooting of any idea of self or can be shown to be valid even just looking at the suttas. And then there are your comments to Matheesha about ‘no supramundane jhana’ etc to discuss further. So much scope for interesting dialogue.....:-/ I’m happy (at my own slow pace ) to discuss any of these areas further with you, Geoff. More than happy ...I'd be honoured. On the other hand, if you feel that the scope of DSG is too narrow for you – looking only at the Theravada teachings as we do—I understand and would just like to thank you for all the hard work and great discussions you’ve had here with so many people. Hopefully after a break we’ll see you again if not before. I also liked your contributions to Matthew’s scientific threads a lot. Metta, Sarah p.s whereabouts in Canada are you? ============================= 44591 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 0:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Greetings and salutations sarahprocter... Hi Lisa H (& Connie), --- Lisa wrote: > > > Hi Sarah, > > You can call me Lisa H., thank you for the lovely welcome and I live > in the United States, in the state of Illinois in the city of > Chicago right near the lake over by the Gold Coast area. I have a > lovely library that includes ===> > > The Connected Discourses of the Buddha (Hardcover) > by Bhikkhu Bodhi, Bodhi (Editor) > > The Long Discourses of the Buddha : A Translation of the Digha > Nikaya (Teachings of the Buddha) (Hardcover)by Maurice Walshe > > The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha: A Translation of the > Majjhima Nikaya (Teachings of the Buddha) (Hardcover) > by Bhikkhu Nanamoli .... S: thx for telling us where you live....I don't recall anyone else from Chicago. (Connie is from Seattle region I believe). Great texts and the best translations imo. Next on your shopping list should be the Bodhi Samyutta Nikaya. Very good. ..... > > I am a book worm and actually do know a bit of Pali and I will pick > up books that address the areas I'm working on in meditation. I > will research words that I don't understand so I can put the words > into the context of the sentence and the passage in which it is > used. I understand that pali and sanskrit words have many meanings > and change depending on how they are used in a sentence. That makes > the research even more interesting because reading the doctrine also > depends on ones own insight and wisdom. .... S: Excellent. Knowing a few basic terms of Pali helps a lot here. Connie can maybe help out for anything more complicated.....(??) ... >To really understand the > message of sutra you have to actually be there and experience it to > get the full meaning. ... S: I think I'm with you.....:-/ Now, your qus and this is where I'm looking for Connie's furher help... .... > Do you have an area on the board where you place meditation > practices? I have written mine down and I wondered if anyone else > had written their personal practice down and posted it on the board. > It would be nice to have feed back on what is going right and what > could be corrected by those wise in the ways of anapansati and > vipassana meditation. .... S: I don't think we have a board or a place where we put anything here... However, you might like to look in 'Useful Posts' in the files under: -Meditation in the texts -Satipatthana & Meditation -Vipassana -Anapanasati What else, Connie? I read your post about jhana with interest too. When you said at the start that you see jhana as 'the subtle conscious which is always there and most people aren't aware of it' or 'The Super Consciousness', I'm afraid it doesn't make much sense to me from what I understand of the teachings in the Pali canon, ie the Theravada teachings, which is what we are primarily interested in here. Thank you for your references to Yasa and others. As you say, they were 'awakened' through hearing a discourse or having many convesations with the Buddha. They had enough wisdom for the words to have sufficient impact, I believe. Lisa, thanks for all the detail and other interesting comments. Please join in any threads and keep sharing from your experiences or the (Theravada) texts above. Metta, Sarah ======== 44592 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 0:42am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 172 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Mindfulness right now can eventually lead to freedom from the danger of rebirth. We may think with fear of unhappy rebirth and then there is akusala citta with dosa, not mindfulness. However, we should remember that even fear can be object of mindfulness. Shortly after the dosa-múla-citta has fallen away sati may arise and it can be aware of whatever characteristic appears at that moment, no matter it is an unpleasant object or akusala citta. When there is mindfulness there is also right effort. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44593 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañ£¡«a dhammas. nilovg Hi Geoff, We are all from different backgrounds, but it is good to exchange views. Do you find this a reason to leave the list? You wrote to Rob K: < I was only ever directly discussing my own experience -- which I realize is completely inappropriate --. I do not see this as inappropriate. Nina. op 19-04-2005 22:40 schreef sunnaloka op sunnaloka@...: > > You are right (we can agree on this at least;-)). It’s simply > not worth debating over. We must all do the best with what we > ‘think’ we know. I certainly include myself in this > category. It has been good conversing with you. Thank you for > answering all my abidhamma questions. 44594 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tep / Review messages # 16499 and 21601 nilovg Dear Tep, Thank you for reviewing messages. your remark touches on very important points concerning the practice. Yes, I find what you say inspiring, inviting to consider more! I like the quoted text, it is useful. This text clearly shows the conditions for intellectual understanding to grow and develop into direct understanding, occurring at the first stage of vipassana ñaa.na. Listening, questioning, until we really understand what dhamma is: the reality appearing right now, such as seeing, visible object, hearing, sound. We begin to realize how deluded we are and that is already some progress. We should first know what we do not know. We only know the names of seeing, visible object, sati, paññaa. But by means of conversations we begin to see that citta, cetasika and rupa are not theoretical notions. They occur, they are real. What we hear needs time to sink in, and if we do not try to make a result occur soon, we do not obstruct the arising of sati of a nama or rupa. sometimes, not often. Yes, I often hear the words; is this all we have to do? There is detachment, alobha, with each kusala citta and thus also with the development of paññaa. This can help us not to cling to an idea of: I want result soon for myself, or, I want to be a wise person. Are such ideas not in the way? We think that we have pure motives, but we should watch out for moments that we are just deluding ourselves. Nina. op 19-04-2005 20:47 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > T: The commentarial suggestion that the namarupa-parichedda-nana > can be achieved by "studying the texts under revered teachers, > listening to explanations of their meaning, questioning about knotty > points and retaining in mind their meaning" is misleading. It invites the > reader to think that intellectual understanding (somewhat similar to the > same understanding obtained in a classroom) is enough to cause this > vipassana-nana to arise. 44595 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right livelihood sarahprocter... Dear Ven Dhammanando (& Ken O), --- Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: > > Hi Ken O, > > > One got this question always on my mind about right > > livelihood. Since we cannot trade in live animals, for > > example pet dogs, can we trade in dog food, accessories, > > clothings etc > > Are you referring to the five wrong trades of the Va.nijjaa > Sutta, or is it something else you have in mind? In this > Sutta I don't see how even pets would be included, let > alone accessories for them. ... S: Thank you so much for the helpful commentary details to this oft-quoted sutta. I've often wished to see the commentary to it. If it's not too much trouble, could I ask you to also provide the details for the other trades mentioned in the same way? With respect, Sarah p.s Ken O - I did write a short post on your livelihood concerns before, I don't know if you saw it. I also plan to add more in one of my 'Musings' soon following further discussions while we were in Bkk. Also, did you see Jon and Christine's recent discussion on this? And...UP-livelihood (right). 44596 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:01am Subject: Conceit and dosa ( was Re: Comparing ... Conceit) philofillet Hi Sarah, and all > The Vibhanga,Ch 17, 832, gives this list of objects on account of which > pride and conceit is likely to arise: > > "Pride of birth; pride of clan; pride of health (snip) Thanks for the comments and the vib passage, Sarah. There is an interesting discussion on one of the tapes about mana (conceit) and dosa (aversion). I listen to the talks in a random way and don't take notes, so I can't remember the details, but I know it helped me realise (at the time) that conceit does not only arise accompanied by lobha (ie attachment to self-image) but also when there's dosa. Our aversive reactions are also accompanied by conceit. I think of the times I get irritated by someone who reacts in a odd way because I'm a non-Japanese. There is aversion that is accompanied by conceit. I think that's what I heard on the tape. But when I think about it now, it would seem that the mana would only be accompanying lobha. There is attachment to the way I think things should be (everyone being nice to each other, and relaxed, despite one's race) and pride about being that kind of racism free person. And then the aversion that arises when someone behaves in a way that is contrary to my expectations. But is there conceit with that aversion, or only derived from the attachment to the self-image? I think I've learned that dosa never arises unless there is lobha first. Ayya Khema said there are only two ways to respond - with equanimity or greed. I think I have learned similar things in ADL. So although we assume aversion is the reaction, there is greed (lobha) first...So it would seem to me that there is conceit with the lobha, but I have trouble understanding it with the dosa... Do you remember the talk I'm referring to? Metta, Phil p.s A sidebar about the talks. You owe me a shirt, Sarah. One day I was listening to a talk and you made a point about what we experience is not what changes, it's just the understanding/delusion that changes, or words to that effect. I stopped what I was doing to ponder the point and forgot about the iron and burned a shirt! Also got soundly scolded by Naomi who says I get spaced out too often! 44597 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:09am Subject: Dhamma Thread (333) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Kamma are like shades of our body. Our body is what exists. When the body does not exist, then there will not exist its shade. Wherever we go, our shade also move along with our body. When does that shade disappear? When the body disappears, its shade also disappears. 1)Is kamma a citta? No, kamma is not a citta. 2)Is kamma a cetasika? In general sense, no. Kamma is not a cetasika except sahajata-kamma. 3)Is kamma a rupa? No. It's definitely not. 4)Is kamma nibbana? No. Kamma is not nibbana. 5)Is kamma a reality? Hard to answer. Counter question will be 'Is the shade a reality?' I was considering whether kamma is wrongly appointed as God by many people and many other religions. Can anyone see God? Can anyone see kamma? One can see the results of kamma but not the kamma directly. If the appointed God is kamma, is it logical just to pray without ever doing good things and refraining from bad things? May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Recent one is 341 now. 44598 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:46am Subject: Winning Vision... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Four Grades of Vision: The Blessed Buddha said: In this some recluse or priest by means of alert & energetic effort enthusiasm, proper rational attention & concentrated focus reaches absorption on this sole thought: In this foul body of disgusting things enclosed by skin, there are head & body hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, mesentery, intestines, stomach, excrement, bile, lymph, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, tallow, spittle, snot, urine & joint-fluid. This is the first attainment of Vision... Having done this and gone beyond it, he regards & perceives any body, own & others, as only a set of bones covered with flesh, vessels & skin. This is the second attainment of Vision... Having done this and gone further, he comes to understand & directly experience this continuous sequence of discrete conscious moments established & manifesting both in this world and the other worlds. This is the third attainment of Vision... Finally, having done this & gone even further than beyond that, he comes to understand & directly experience this unbroken stream of consciousness neither established nor manifesting in this world nor in any other world. This is the fourth attainment of Vision... Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya III 105-5 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44599 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right livelihood rjkjp1 Dear Ken, I see you already have great answers from Venerable Dhammanando and Htoo. I read an article by an American Buddhist who refuses to pay taxes because he worries the money goes towards the American military. For me this is an extreme stand. The household life is dusty, only the monks life is wide open for right livelihood, so it takes balance. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Nina, Rob K, Sarah, Jon and everyone > > One got this question always on my mind about right livelihood. > Since we cannot trade in live animals, for example pet dogs, can we > trade in dog food, accessories, clothings etc > > Ken O > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 44600 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conceit and dosa ( was Re: Comparing ... Conceit) sarahprocter... Hi Phil, Good to see you back in form! --- Philip wrote: > > Thanks for the comments and the vib passage, Sarah. > > There is an interesting discussion on one of the tapes about mana > (conceit) and dosa (aversion). I listen to the talks in a random > way and don't take notes, so I can't remember the details, but I > know it helped me realise (at the time) that conceit does not only > arise accompanied by lobha (ie attachment to self-image) but also > when there's dosa. .... S: Hmmm...:-/ .... >Our aversive reactions are also accompanied by > conceit. I think of the times I get irritated by someone who reacts > in a odd way because I'm a non-Japanese. There is aversion that is > accompanied by conceit. I think that's what I heard on the tape. But > when I think about it now, it would seem that the mana would only be > accompanying lobha. ... S: Right, just with lobha. Of course the lobha and dosa follow each other so quickly, so just as you say, there can be dosa when someone reacts like this, followed by conceit (his odd-way unlike mine), followed by more dosa.... ... >There is attachment to the way I think things > should be (everyone being nice to each other, and relaxed, despite > one's race) and pride about being that kind of racism free person.. ... S: Exactly. Even if it's true, the pride or mana is there. .... > And then the aversion that arises when someone behaves in a way > that is contrary to my expectations. But is there conceit with that > aversion, or only derived from the attachment to the self-image? ... S: Right, derived from clinging and finding oneself important which conditions the aversion when it's not as we'd like. .... > > I think I've learned that dosa never arises unless there is lobha > first. Ayya Khema said there are only two ways to respond - with > equanimity or greed. I think I have learned similar things in ADL. ... S: Best of all is with awareness of the present dhammas...mere passing elements, not self. Of course, any responses depend on the conditions at the time. .... > So although we assume aversion is the reaction, there is greed > (lobha) first...So it would seem to me that there is conceit with > the lobha, but I have trouble understanding it with the dosa... > > Do you remember the talk I'm referring to? ... S: Not sure - are you referring to the Burma tapes? Definitely not with dosa. ... > p.s A sidebar about the talks. You owe me a shirt, Sarah. One day > I was listening to a talk and you made a point about what we > experience is not what changes, it's just the understanding/delusion > that changes, or words to that effect. I stopped what I was doing to > ponder the point and forgot about the iron and burned a shirt! Also > got soundly scolded by Naomi who says I get spaced out too often! ... S: Hey Phil, I'm not responsible:-). Maybe like the bhikkhuni who burnt the curry, it'll be your way of becoming enlightened. I don't follow your summary of my point, but perhaps I was saying that the thinking/understanding/delusion and other paramattha dhammas change rather than what is conceptualised (??). Poor Naomi, but at least it wasn't her shirt. I hope her job goes well too. I completely relate to both your example of mana here and also when it comes to getting 'spaced out' doing ordinary chores. I'm pretty well banned from the kitchen and haven't driven a car or ironed for years as a result. Metta, Sarah ======= 44601 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conceit and dosa ( was Re: Comparing ... Conceit) sarahprocter... Hi Phil & All, --- sarah abbott wrote: > I completely relate to both your example of mana here and also when > it comes to getting 'spaced out' doing ordinary chores. ... S: It started with a little sympathy here and then quicly conceit again - 'I'm like you...' - true, but the banner is flying once more, definitely with lobha. Sneaks in all the time. So very common. Sarah 44602 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:56am Subject: Re: Goodbye DSG (for now anyway) jwromeijn Hallo Geoff (and goodbye) It's a pity but inevitable that you end your participation in DSG. I did the same some weeks ago and I now also stop reading in this forum: your messages were the last reason I did. I really don't understand why the two grand old ladies are so problem- denying (naive?) that they don't see why you stop, as so many other non-dogmatics did stop. It's not a problem that DSG is a Theravada- forum but they refuse to consider that the way the discussions in it are organized, can be changed. I had a first look at your site, much more Theravadan than the impression you gave. What interests me most, is how do you see the relation of the content of your side with the 'emptiness' of Madhyamaka (Nagarjuna) ? In your 'notes' you say you are not endorsing his "The life-process has no thing that distinguishes it from freedom. Freedom has no thing that distinguishes it from the life-process" (MMK XXV-19) But is that all that can be said of this great Buddhist, one of the few who can bridge the gap between Theravada and Mahayana? Cf what David Kalupahana said about this statement: "This statement of Nagarjuna has contributed to a major and wide- spread asertion regarding the uniqueness of Mahayana-philosophy, namely, the ultimate identity of samsara and nirvana. This assertion may appear to be correct, if we are to ignore all that has been said by Nagarjuna regarding the metaphysical doctrines of identity and difference, especially in the chapters dealing with the tathagata (XXII) and the four truths (XXIV). Those who upheld the view that this statement is a assertion of the identity of samsara and nirvana do not seem to have paused one moment to reflect on the question regarding the nature of the identity they were implying; nor have they attempted to place that conception of identity (if there is one) in the historical context." (The Philosophy of the Middle Way, page 366) Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sunnaloka" wrote: > > Hi everyone at DSG, > > I’m going to say goodbye for now as I don’t find that > what is generally being discussed here resonates with me on any > level, and I’m just not very interested in critical refutation > and debate. If the Theravadin commentarial path paradigm works for > anyone, that is great -- who am I to criticize. It’s just not > my upaya --that’s all. I firmly believe that the path is > functional and not rigidly fundamentalist. Thanks for answering my > Abhidhamma Pitaka questions. May you all be well. > > With omnidirectional metta, > > Geoff > > P.S. If anyone’s interested they can check out my > (?heterodox?) interpretation of the Pali Sutta Pitaka at my site: > > http://emptyuniverse.tripod.com/ > > You can also e-mail me through the contact page of the emptyuniverse > site. 44603 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:24am Subject: Re: Tep / Review messages # 16499 and 21601 buddhistmedi... Dear Nina (Sarah, Jon, Chris, Phil, and others) - I truly appreciate your response to my earlier remark : > T: The commentarial suggestion that the namarupa-parichedda-nana > can be achieved by "studying the texts under revered teachers, > listening to explanations of their meaning, questioning about knotty > points and retaining in mind their meaning" is misleading. It invites the > reader to think that intellectual understanding (somewhat similar to the > same understanding obtained in a classroom) is enough to cause this vipassana-nana to arise. N: Yes, I often hear the words; is this all we have to do? There is detachment, alobha, with each kusala citta and thus also with the development of pannaa. This can help us not to cling to an idea of: I want result soon for myself, or, I want to be a wise person. Are such ideas not in the way? T: Not exactly. We should ask "is this all we have to do?" with kusala cetana to improve our practice (training, sikkha) to perfection. It is not necessary that we be motivated by the desire "I want result for myself "; we can practice and increase the effort in order to penetrate the 4 Noble Truth without attaching to "me, mine, myself", because we know that clinging to the pancakkhandha is dukkha. The following sutta quote encourages such intention with strong effort to "fathom the Teacher's dispensation": "For a faithful disciple who is intent on fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation, the Teacher's Dispensation is nourishing and refreshing. For a faithful disciple who is intent on fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation, it is proper that he conduct himself thus: `Willingly, let only my skin, sinews and bones remain, and let the flesh and blood dry up on my body, but my energy shall not be relaxed so long as I have not attained what can be attained by manly strength, manly energy, and manly persistence.' For a faithful disciple who is intent on fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation, one of two fruits may be expected: either final knowledge here and now or, if there is a trace of clinging left, non-return." Majjhima Nikaya 70:27 (Kitagiri Sutta) I think there will be no trouble such as 'lobha' and attachment to ' self ' as long as we look at the practice, along with the evaluation of the training for improvement, simply as a Dhamma learning process- it is just a dhamma - without thinking 'I want result soon for my self '. The right practice is to let go of self and all defilements along the way, while having a clear sense of direction in the background -- this sense of direction toward the goal (fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation) will never ever interfere with our advancement. This way we will be reducing lobha, dosa and moha every day while we are advancing more rapidly toward the goal! Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > Thank you for reviewing messages. > your remark touches on very important points concerning the practice. Yes, I find what you say inspiring, inviting to consider more! I like the quoted text, it is useful. > This text clearly shows the conditions for intellectual understanding to > grow and develop into direct understanding, occurring at the first stage of vipassana ñaa.na. > Listening, questioning, until we really understand what dhamma is: the > reality appearing right now, such as seeing, visible object, hearing, sound. > We begin to realize how deluded we are and that is already some progress. We should first know what we do not know. > We only know the names of seeing, visible object, sati, paññaa. But by means of conversations we begin to see that citta, cetasika and rupa are not theoretical notions. They occur, they are real. > What we hear needs time to sink in, and if we do not try to make a result occur soon, we do not obstruct the arising of sati of a nama or rupa. sometimes, not often. 44604 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:11am Subject: Conceit and dosa ( was Re: Comparing ... Conceit) philofillet Hi Sarah > > I completely relate to both your example of mana here and also when > > it comes to getting 'spaced out' doing ordinary chores. > ... > S: It started with a little sympathy here and then quicly conceit again - > 'I'm like you...' - true, but the banner is flying once more, definitely > with lobha. Sneaks in all the time. So very common. Interesting. Even "I can relate to that" is a form of mana. That reminds me of something else that interested me on the tapes. You bring up a comment/question that Christine had about feeling that when all is seen as nama and rupa, something seems missing from life - the spice, the stories. We might come to be seen as dry or spiceless from people who are still going full throttle on conventional truths. I will bring that up at some point because I ahve some thoughts on it, but in the meantime I can see that we have to be comfortable with having a lot of mana if we maintain friendships in the world. All that relating, and commiserating, and encouraging in conventional terms. We can't get away from it unless we want to cut ourselves off from people, which is not an option most of us will choose. So we carry on with the non-harmful forms of lobha and mana without fretting about them but gradually getting to know them better. As for mana and dosa, the next time that tape comes around I will take note of just what is said. I know you and Jon are involved, and I know there is talk of dosa and mana, but I guess I misunderstood the context. I don't know if it was in Bangkok or in Burma. Ken was kind enough to write the location and date on the cassettes but I don't take note. Metta, Phil 44605 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:16am Subject: Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah (Mike, Nina and others) - S: As I indicated, I was really grateful for your detailed feedback, > beautifully presented and with very pertinent sutta quotes . > Very good and subtle points for further discussion. S: ... most the Musings refer to questions I or others > raised recently (often reflecting my own uncertainties > or wrong views following on from controversial topics here:-)). T: I am honored by the praise from an exceptional quality Dhamma researcher and Moderator like you, Sarah. But I am afraid that some points I made might already have been discussed by other DSG authors. I must admit that at the rate of 200+ messages per week, it is not possible for me to keep up with everything here. On a second thought, I think your defense of the "controversial topics" (and the excellent remarks you made in Musings9) make me wondering if, perhaps, my previous remarks should be reexamined! S: >Knowing different dhammas just as they are ...again, I don't > agree that `we have to be noble disciples first'. There are > stages of insight as we've discussed before and even now > there can be a beginning to know the characteristics > of dhammas just as they are. T: It was my ambiguous sentence, `we have to be noble disciples first' , that caused confusion here. I agree with you (and Nina) about the development stages of insight -- I did not (and do not) deny that fact. I only meant that the samma-ditthi, according to DN 9, does not belong to us right now because we are not Stream-winners yet. Therefore, the sakkaya-ditthis are unavoidable while we are practicing the Eightfold path. No matter how often you remind yourself that only the viriya that is accompanied by right view ("it is a conditioned dhamma, not self") is the right effort, your viriya still is not the right effort. Why? Because right now you still cannot abandon sakkaya-ditthi. So "we have to be noble disciples first" before our views are the right view. S: >Thank you again for all your help - I'm sure the silent > majority here will have appreciated your feedback a lot too, > so courteously presented as Mike said. Hope I can learn from it:-). T: I am honored as a member of this exceptional group. Concerning my feedback, it is like the Texas' Spring weather - i.e. good for 2 days and not so good for the next 3 days. I hope to get more helps in terms of comments and criticism from you all in order to become more reliable. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, (Mike & Nina) > > I'm very glad to see you're having further discussions with Mike and Nina. 44606 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:20am Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) buddhatrue Hi Phil, I'm going to combine both of your posts into one response. I hope it isn't too long: Phil: I think there's a lack of diplomacy at times that cuts right to the chase. You lay out broadly-drawn prognosises (sp?)of people's ways of studying or discussing Dhamma, often lacking in generosity but at the same time containing some truth that is helpful to reflect on. James: Okay. Well, that is the Zen and the psychic influences of my personality. I can see certain things about people and I will often confront them with this information in a shocking way. I purposefully try to be shocking, as is done in Zen, or my point/purpose could be lost. There are pluses and minuses to this approach, but it seems to be a part of my personality. It comes out every time I interact with people (on or off the Internet). Some people appreciate this approach and some don't- I have close friends and ambivalent enemies. As Jon wrote about me once, "It's just James being James" ;-)). Phil: You compared me once to a friendly puppy seeking approval and affection and you were bang on. I could perhaps compare you to some other kind of dog but I will stop that train of thought right here! James: As I recall you did compare me to a type of dog at the time: A HOUND OF HELL!! ;-)) Phil: First of all, I think you would agree that there is no real need for us to continue discussing the pros and cons of Kh Sujin's approach James: Actually, in this group there is a real need to discuss her approach because it has a strong influence on the thinking of several members. However, unfortunately, such a discussion is usually not very effective because she isn't a member of this group to discuss her approach herself. I can listen to her tapes, and comment on those (as I have done) but still she isn't here to clarify any points I might make. It is like discussing a phantom. Phil: Thanks again for your post, and good luck with your move. James: Thanks Phil: By any chance will you be able to see the sphinx as you take a pee? James: LOL! No, the sphinx is actually a lot smaller than it looks in photographs. You can't see it unless you are right at it. I won't be able to see the pyramids either, I won't be close enough. But I will be living right beside the Nile. Phil: But I do enjoying exchanging ideas with you and as I've said before you often say things that stick with me and make me think about things from a different angle. James: Thank you; I enjoy our conversations as well. Phil: She doesn't engage in speculation. Sometimes it can be very abrupt and a bit offputting, to tell the truth, to hear someone's tentative question, about fear and pain at the moment of death, for example, put aside with a quick call for a return to present realities. James: This can be an effective technique- for the right person at the right time. Sometimes people need to have their questions answered in a direct manner; sometimes it is important to shock the person back to what is important- craving and clinging at the six sense doors. If K. Sujin has the right balance of instructional techniques, I cannot say. But, and this is very important, don't let her make you second-guess yourself: If it looks like B.S. and it smells like B.S., then it probably is B.S., no matter how many people tell you it isn't. Phil: I think I'm just letting go of stories far momre often, because of these small reminders from Dhamma friends. James: That is great; that is the power of mindfulness. However, unfortunately, without a more purposeful practice, you probably won't advance very far. You will be continually slipping back into suffering and ignorance. Now you are on a high, but it probably won't last very long. Phil: I know the Buddha told people to be self-reliant, but if he knew Westerners were going to be in his audience he might have worded it differently! James: This is pure conjecture which isn't very helpful. Remember, as worldlings we are all suffering from ignorance; it is as if we have a mental disorder. We are not qualified to say what the Buddha should have said or what he would have said today. We delude ourselves with such thoughts. We need to stick specifically to what the Buddha taught and to know that he knew his teachings would last thousands of years- and yet he didn't qualify them. What applied to the Buddha's time applies to our time, or the Buddha would have said differently. Trust the Buddha's words! The Buddhadhamma is our refuge. Phil: We in the west are conditioned from childhood to carve out remarkable lives, to be individualistic, to be independent, to be self-reliant. I think we are prone to have very strong self-identities, much stronger, in general, than Asians. James: This is a matter of perspective. From my perspective, Asians tend to have a self-identification based on group membership, but it is still a strong self-identification. Phil: I know you've heard this a thousand times before, but I really think it's true - when we seek techniques and expect results from them we are operating in a deluded belief that there is a self that can control cittas - and this is contrary to the teaching that makes the Buddha unique, the teaching of anatta. James: I would be quite willing to accept this perspective if, and only if, the Buddha taught this. Quote to me where the Buddha taught this and you will have a convert! As for myself, I don't find the Buddha teaching this at all!! Am I stupid? Did I miss it? I find the Buddha teaching over and over about concentrated effort to develop the mind with him giving specific and general instructions. The Satipatthana Sutta is a very long "How To" discourse on mindfulness- including techniques and tips (it even includes a timetable of expected results). To view the Satipatthana Sutta as simply descriptive of saintly monks and not prescriptive for anyone wishing to practice mindfulness, as some in this group do, lacks common sense. Phil: If you could write anything that would inspire me towards a more intentional approach towards developing mindfulness, I would be glad to hear of it. James: Phil, what can I say? You have been reading all of those writings from Nina, K. Sujin, and listening to those tapes over and over again, what could I say to reverse all of that conditioning? In essence, you have been brainwashed- but you did it to yourself. All I can tell you to do is to try and see the big picture: The philosophy of K. Sujin and her followers runs contrary to 2,500 years of Buddhist practice- practice based on specific and purposeful acts of dana, mindfulness, meditation, and renunciation. The teaching of K. Sujin runs contrary to the purpose and philosophy of the Bhikkhu/Bhikkhuni Sangha. When you buy into this philosophy, you are not becoming a self-reliant Buddhist with the dhamma as your guide; you are becoming a cult member with the vision of a Thai worldling as your guide. As Howard writes, the teaching of K. Sujin is "idiosyncratic"; I would go even farther: it is downright dangerous! For your own sake, abandon it before it is too late! (I know this response is blunt and may turn you off, but, as you accurately comment earlier, I don't do `diplomacy' ;-)) Metta, James 44607 From: "Dan D." Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:26am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 171 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (b) onco111 Dear Tep, I see that you clipped off the part of my post that was either uncomfortable or incomprehensible to you but is really the key. That's fine. But now I have a question. You write: > T: They are instructions to the worldlings. Instructions for doing what? Arousing Right Effort? And what, in your opinion, distinguishes Right Effort from Wrong Effort? Dan 44608 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:50am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 171 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (b) buddhistmedi... Dear Dan - Thank you for not ignoring the one-line comment <"They are instructions to the worldlings".> D: I see that you clipped off the part of my post that was either uncomfortable or incomprehensible to you but is really the key. T: There is another possibility, Dan. I was not interested in the clipped- off part < "Do these things in order to get these results" rather than "When these things are done, these things result." In the first case, there is a sense of "I must do; I am doing"--moha; in the latter case, there is a sense of "These results arose from these conditions"-- amoha. "Shoulds" are dangerous traps.> D: Instructions for doing what? Arousing Right Effort? And what, in your opinion, distinguishes Right Effort from Wrong Effort? T: Instructions for mind training (citta-sikkha), i.e. for achieving purification of consciousness. No, not for arousing right effort; it is for enhancing concentration(samadhi). Right effort is a path factor; wrong effort is not. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > Dear Tep, > I see that you clipped off the part of my post that was either > uncomfortable or incomprehensible to you but is really the key. That's > fine. But now I have a question. You write: > > > T: They are instructions to the worldlings. > > Instructions for doing what? Arousing Right Effort? And what, in your > opinion, distinguishes Right Effort from Wrong Effort? > > Dan 44609 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings9 – Guarding, Restraint & Wise Attention nilovg Dear Tep, I also find this quote important. This morning I heard on my MP3 that Kh sujin was stressing this again. She said: Characteristics is often stressed. We do not have to think immediately of the three general characteristics. Each dhamma that appears has its own characteristic, and it can be known by that characteristic. Lobha has its own characteristic, it is different from dosa. Perhaps we could discuss more about characteristics. She also said: When one studies Pali one may often stare at words, but one should understand the meaning, penetrate more the true meaning of dhammas. That conditions awareness of dhammas, and in that way sati-sampajañña of satipatthana develops. op 20-04-2005 02:35 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > It's not just a matter of understanding `the word' or the definitions, but > rather the meaning of what is implied in order for satipatthana to > develop right now. 44610 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Breathing. nilovg Dear Tep, No need to step aside. As Htoo says, this is a forum and we all can butt in. Nina op 20-04-2005 01:37 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > Nina, I understand that your message was directed to Mike and Kel, so > it should be more appropriate for me to step aside until Mike and Kel > have responded. 44611 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) nilovg Hi Phil, What a lovely letter you wrote to James, full of good thoughts as reminders. I just select a few points. op 20-04-2005 04:02 schreef Philip op philco777@...: ... I do enjoying exchanging > ideas with you and as I've said before you often say things that > stick with me and make me think about things from a different angle. ------------------------------ N: Yes, true. James' remarks or Geoff's or Howard's or someone else's remarks make us think about things from a different angle. That is why I appreciate them, even though I do not agree with everything they say. ----------------- Ph: ... She doesn't engage in speculation. Sometimes it can be very abrupt and a bit > offputting, to tell the truth, to hear someone's tentative question, about fear and pain at the moment of death, for example, put aside with a quick call for a return to present realities. What some have called a "cold shower", maybe. ------------------ N:this expresses it very well. We are reminded: this is only thinking, and it can hit hard! It is the truth and helps us to see the difference between thinking of concepts we are so engaged with and knowing what is really there: fleeting dhammas that do not stay. Suddenly we come to understand the futility of all thinking and speculating. Yes, it makes us have less fear. But difficult to always apply. I have my story: getting old, life passing so fast. ------------- Ph: It is wrong to expect to lay down fresh tracks in the > short run. But all the reminders accumulate, with a conditioning > power that depends on our capacity to be mindful of them and the > depth of the intellectual understanding that accompanies our > reflection on them. --------------- N: Well expressed, Phil. This we can verify ourselves. ------------ Ph: I sit here and maybe speculate about how James will respond to this, whether he will be bored or irritated or maybe approve or what. And then a moment of awareness, it is all > nama and rupa. I let go of stories about Phil, about James, there is freedom from stories. -------------- N: That is how awareness helps to let go off stories. It does lead to more equanimity. James wrote a long time ago that he saw the benefit of equanimity. We are now at equanimity with Larry in the Visuddhimagga thread. I am reflecting on it. It views the object with impartiality, no deficiency, no excess. Then one is not caught up in worry and fear. Nina. 44612 From: nina Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:28am Subject: conditions for right awareness. nilovg Hi Tep, Phil and all, We have been discussing about the right conditions for direct awareness and understanding. It is a point people always wonder about. Is it only listening? Tep quoted a text about asking questions, as one of the conditions. Tonight I read to Lodewijk for our dinner reading from Letters about Vipassana (Ch 7, on Rob K's web) I found very appropriate. -------------------- ---------------- I talked with Phil about stories we cling to. I quote more: Nina 44613 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:01pm Subject: Re: Musings9 – Guarding, Restraint & Wise Attention buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - Thank you for the kind thought -- I guess you hope that it will benefit me to gain deeper understanding of the characteristics of the realities "when they appear" (which is beyond the verbal meanings), and that understanding is a support of satipatthana. It is nice to be reminded that besides the tilakkhana, there are other nama-rupa characteristics that should be clearly known. N: When one studies Pali one may often stare at words, but one should understand the meaning, penetrate more the true meaning of dhammas. That conditions awareness of dhammas, and in that way sati-sampajanna of satipatthana develops. T: Indeed I do feel that I am able to comprehend nama-rupa more today than yesterday. Every word you wrote above seems to "penetrate" my consciousness deeper. Is the fully developed understanding of the nama-rupa characteristics, excluding the tilakkhana, known as naama-ruupa-pariccheda-naana? Oh, I have another question. In the Thai suttas there is one common word that appears very often, it is "kamnod-roo". Have you seen it too? Does it mean sati-sampajanna, or anupassana, or what else? I think the literal meaning of kamnod-roo is "focusing to know". In the Thai version of MN 149 it says that the Bhikkhu must "kamnod-roo" the five clinging aggregates with great(abhi) wisdom(panna), he must abandon avijja and tanha with great wisdom, he must develop samatha-vipassana with great wisdom, and he must penetrate vijja and vimutti with great wisdom. The Thai translators use a lot of Pali words that are disguised in the Thai alphabets. But the Pali word for 'kamnod-roo' is not shown ! Thanissaro Bhikkhu translated kamnod- roo as "comprehend", and abhi-panna as "direct knowledge". But I feel the deep meaning is missing. N: Perhaps we could discuss more about characteristics. T: Please do that and I will be delighted. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > I also find this quote important. > This morning I heard on my MP3 that Kh sujin was stressing this again. > She said: chue), but understanding the characteristics that appear.> > Characteristics is often stressed. We do not have to think immediately of > the three general characteristics. Each dhamma that appears has its own > characteristic, and it can be known by that characteristic. Lobha has its > own characteristic, it is different from dosa. > Perhaps we could discuss more about characteristics. > 44614 From: "mnease" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 / Mike's Requested Citations mlnease Hi Tep, Great citations, thanks--I am pressed for time now but will respond to this and your earlier reply ASAP--thanks for your patience. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tep Sastri" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 4:20 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 / Mike's Requested Citations > There are several more suttas about Sotapatti that I have found at > AccessToInsight.com. Below is my selection from the larger set of > suttas translated by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > 1. AN V.25 Anugghita Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-025.html > > 2. AN X.92 Vera Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an10-092.html > > 3. MN 2 Sabbasava Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002-tb0.html > > "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of > stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the > cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three > fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at > precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be > abandoned by seeing". > > Tep's remark: here we see how appropiate attention > (yonisomanasikara) to the 4 Noble Truths can eradicate the lower > three fetters. It is amazing! > > 4. AN V.179 Gihi Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05- > 179.html#anatha > > 5. AN VII.51 Avyakata Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an07-051.html > > 6. SN LV.30 Licchavi Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn55-030.html > > 7. SN LV.1 Raja Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn55-001.html > > 8. SN XXV Okkanta-samyutta, Khandha Vagga (group of suttas) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/index.html#Okkan > ta > > Mike, I am not sure this is the kind of "citations" you wanted. Please > kindly advise. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > ====== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" > wrote: > > Hi Again Tep, > > > (snipped) > > > > (3) There are a few suttas instructing laypeople how to become > > > Sotapanna and Anagami, Mike. > > > > Thanks, Tep, I have read them. I don't have them indexed though-- > could you > > cite them for us? I think it would be especially valuable if we can find > > instances of the Buddha advising laypeople to go to the roots of > trees or > > attend retreats and so on. > > > . > > > > mike 44615 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:17pm Subject: Re: conditions for right awareness. buddhistmedi... Hello Nina (Phil and others) - The two quotes are excellent; the second one, however, touches my heart deeply. It will go into my notebook so I can read it several times. Thank you very much, Nina. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Hi Tep, Phil and all, > We have been discussing about the right conditions for direct awareness and > understanding. It is a point people always wonder about. Is it only > listening? Tep quoted a text about asking questions, as one of the > conditions. (snipped) > I talked with Phil about stories we cling to. I quote more: > > Khun Sujin stressed during the discussion that when we go to sleep all the stories we made up during the day are forgotten. It is true that when I am asleep I do not know who I am, whom I am married to or where I live. We have forgotten our joys, fears and worries. When we are asleep and not dreaming there are no processes of cittas which experience objects impinging on the six doors. There are bhavangacittas (life continuum), cittas which have the function of keeping the continuity in life, and these cittas experience the > same object as the rebirth-consciousness, which is the object experienced shortly before the dying-consciousness of the previous life. > It is beneficial to know about such details, it helps us to understand that all the stories we are absorbed in now are nothing at all. They exist only so long as we are thinking about them, but they are forgotten as soon as we are asleep. Khun Sujin said that we should not wait until we go to sleep to forget about the stories we make up, but that we should become detached from them from now on. > Attachment does not bring peace, understanding that everything is very temporary conditions Peace. One can come to realize that the processes of citta which experience sense objects pass like a flash and that there is then thinking about them. We live in our own world of thinking from birth to death. We have different feelings because of our thinking, but everything passes like a flash, it is very temporary. After seeing there is thinking, after hearing there is thinking. What we are used to taking for a permanent thing appears for a very short moment and then it is completely gone. We have heard this before but it is so good to be reminded of the truth. > Nina 44616 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:06pm Subject: Re: Tep / Review messages # 16499 and 21601 christine_fo... Hello Tep, Phil, Sarah, and all, Thank you for your posts on this and other threads ... I am reading with keen interest and will re-join the threads in a few days. I'm flying north to join Azita, Shakti and Tom (dsg members from USA) in Cairns this evening after work for the ANZAC day long weekend ... I hear they met up last night for dinner with lots of laughter - mainly lobha, but interspersed with Dhamma, I'm sure. You know ... the usual. :-) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: <<>> 44617 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:35pm Subject: Re: Goodbye DSG (for now anyway) christine_fo... Hello Sarah and Nina (and Joop if still reading) :-) "I really don't understand why the two grand old ladies are so problem- denying (naive?) that they don't see why you stop, as so many other non-dogmatics did stop. It's not a problem that DSG is a Theravada- forum but they refuse to consider that the way the discussions in it are organized, can be changed." O.K. - that's torn it!! I've seen the Heaven-born come and go, shaking their heads at the unregenerate reprobates on this list .. But to discover at this late stage that there is a Secret Honours List which ordinary members don't know about ... well!! How do the rest of us get to be one of these Grand Old Ladies (if isn't this Age- ism and Sex-ism, rather than Buddh-ism?) I'm fully qualified - I'm female, naive, and like the way DSG is organized ... I'll be watching the New Years Honours List with an eagle eye ... metta, Chris - aka 'Would-be if she Could-be member of the "Order of the Grande Dame"' 44618 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tep / Review messages # 16499 and 21601 sarahprocter... Hi Chris (aka 'Would-be if she Could-be member of the "Order of the Grande Dame"), Azita (another with potential), Shakti & Tom, --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Thank you for your posts on this and other threads ... I am reading > with keen interest and will re-join the threads in a few days. > I'm flying north to join Azita, Shakti and Tom (dsg members from USA) > in Cairns this evening after work for the ANZAC day long weekend ... I > hear they met up last night for dinner with lots of laughter - mainly > lobha, but interspersed with Dhamma, I'm sure. You know ... the > usual. :-) .... S: Hope you all have a good weekend get-together and I know you'll have some good dhamma discussions as well as lobha. I'm sure you'll all have topics in mind. Hope we can encourage you all (inc Shakti & Tom perhaps) to write some fun reports. Also look f/w to your comments on those other threads when you get back.... Metta, Sarah p.s Shakti - thx again for the parcel. 44619 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:09pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (333) Evan_Stamato... Hi Htoo, Interesting post on kamma. I have been thinking about what it is we "take" with us into our next lifetimes because many in the world are focussed on building up their material wealth especially in the western world. This I saw as a problem because it is quite clear that even though material wealth provides pleasure for the five chords of sensual pleasure, it cannot accompany one into the next lifetime continue providing its pleasure. So what is it that one "takes" with one in the next lifetime? The mind (citta/cetasika)? As you correctly state below, no, since they rise and fall continuously in rapid succession, they don't even accompany us in this lifetime. The conclusion I came to (flame suit on) is that the mind has a tendancy to develop patterns of thought. These mind patterns result in our behaviour and likes/dislikes. It is these mind patterns that we "take" with us from lifetime to lifetime. Then I concluded that these mind patterns must be related to kamma because the Buddha clearly states that our kamma follows us into our next lifetimes and nothing else. Well, if that was all there was, just my thoughts on the subject, I would not have written this email. However, last weekend I went to the Bodhivana Monastery, East Warburton to offer dhanna to the monks. At the monastery, Ajahn Kalyano, while answering someone else's question, talked about mind conditioning and made the statement that ones conditioning is one's kamma. I made the connection that I couldn't make before and all the pieces fell together. What I called mind patterns and what Ajahn Kalyano called mind conditioning ARE our kamma. This is what we take with us. Even though it is not clearly visible, it is visible in our tendancies to think, speak and act in certain ways. This of course conditions the world around us in how others think, talk and act of/with/about us and this is our kamma. Well, it was kind of a revelation to see the link for me so I thought I would share it with you and see what you think about this. With Metta, Evan Dear Dhamma Friends, Kamma are like shades of our body. Our body is what exists. When the body does not exist, then there will not exist its shade. Wherever we go, our shade also move along with our body. When does that shade disappear? When the body disappears, its shade also disappears. 1)Is kamma a citta? No, kamma is not a citta. 2)Is kamma a cetasika? In general sense, no. Kamma is not a cetasika except sahajata-kamma. 3)Is kamma a rupa? No. It's definitely not. 4)Is kamma nibbana? No. Kamma is not nibbana. 5)Is kamma a reality? Hard to answer. Counter question will be 'Is the shade a reality?' I was considering whether kamma is wrongly appointed as God by many people and many other religions. Can anyone see God? Can anyone see kamma? One can see the results of kamma but not the kamma directly. If the appointed God is kamma, is it logical just to pray without ever doing good things and refraining from bad things? May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. Recent one is 341 now. 44620 From: "Philip" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:19pm Subject: Re: conditions for right awareness. philofillet Hi Nina, Tep and all > predict what the next moment will be like. When there is attachment we can > see it as just a reality. Ph: This is something I've been thinking a lot during my time off- line. I can see a danger in this for me. "Oh, yes, I glanced at that woman with lust but it is just attachment rising and falling away. It is jsut conditioned nama. Nothing to worry about." So it seems there is a risk of becoming too comfortable with akusala. (Even if we see it for what it is, it still accumulates and who knows what that will lead too.) I read that Kh Sujin says she doesn't worry about her unwholesome states at all. And it's true, worrying about them after they are gone does no good. So I have been feeling that what the Buddha called "the guardians of the world" are very important. Hiri and ottapa (shame and concern for the consequences of wrong doing, or is it the other way around) can arise, along with wise attention, I guess, and other cetasikas, at the moment a desirable object impinges, and then there is kusala. Of course, things happen so quickly that I would think it is a bit further along in the processes that these helpful cetasikas arise. We cannot "stop at seeing" yet. In any case, I have been aware of not wanting to lean too cozily on "being mindful of present realities" because that is way beyond me. Nevertheless, there can be peace and a kind of release from extended unwholesomeness even from intellectual understanding of them. And the intellectual understanding may help to condition something more deeply liberating. Khun Sujin pointed out that we need many > "ingredients" for the growth of right understanding. These ingredients are > the sobhana cetasikas (beautiful mental factors) which have been accumulated > and which support one another and co-operate so that right understanding can > develop to the degree that it can achieve detachment from the self. A cook > needs many ingredients in order to compose a meal. In the same way many > ingredients are needed for a moment of precise understanding of the reality > which appears. Ph: I'd want to be careful with this wording, because ingredients are usually added intentionally following a recipe, and we know what recipes for mindfulness can lead to! Perhaps if we think of them as naturally occuring ingredients, perhaps the vitamins and minerals and juiciness that occur naturally in a piece of fruit when conditions are right for it to be wholesome and delicious. It is necessary to accumulate many moments of reading, > listening, studying and considering. When we study the Dhamma in detail, we > collect ingredients which lead to direct understanding later on. Khun Sujin > said: > > We read in order to understand this moment. > We listen in order to understand this moment. > We consider in order to understand this moment. > When one is aware and there is no progress, one can know why: there is not > enough understanding of the details of the Dhamma. > Ph: Nina, I read from you in a post "all this study should lead us back to the moment." And it does seem to, ever so gradually. I will be writing (conjecturing, as James rightly puts it) when I get back to James on his post. (Thanks in passing, James. Probably not today.) Thanks again for this and all your helpful guidance, Nina. I have been learning so much from your books and the posts of yours that I have collected. ("Nina classics" I call them - my own UPS!) Metta, Phil 44621 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:21pm Subject: Re: Right livelihood dhammanando_... Dear Sarah, > S: Thank you so much for the helpful commentary details to > this oft-quoted sutta. I've often wished to see the > commentary to it. If it's not too much trouble, could I ask > you to also provide the details for the other trades > mentioned in the same way? I append translations of the Muula-paalii, Atthakathaa and .Tiikaa below. Va.nijjaa Sutta ''pa~ncimaa, bhikkhave, va.nijjaa upaasakena akara.niiyaa. katamaa pa~nca? satthava.nijjaa, sattava.nijjaa, ma.msava.nijjaa, majjava.nijjaa, visava.nijjaa -- imaa kho, bhikkhave, pa~nca va.nijjaa upaasakena akara.niiyaa''ti. sattama.m. (AN. iii. 208) Discourse on Trades These five trades, bhikkhus, should not be undertaken by an upaasaka. What five? Trading in weapons, trading in living beings, trading in flesh, trading in intoxicants, trading in poison. These then, bhikkhus, are five trades that should not be undertaken by an upaasaka. The seventh. _________________ Atthakathaa sattame "va.nijjaa" ti vaa.nijakammaani. "upaasakenaa" ti tisara.nagatena. "satthava.nijjaa" ti aavudhabha.n.da.m kaaretvaa tassa vikkayo. "sattava.nijjaa" ti manussavikkayo. "ma.msava.nijjaa" ti suukaramigaadayo posetvaa tesa.m vikkayo. "majjava.nijjaa" ti ya.mki~nci majja.m kaaretvaa tassa vikkayo. "visava.nijjaa" ti visa.m kaaretvaa tassa vikkayo. iti sabbampi ima.m va.nijja.m neva attanaa kaatu.m, na pare samaadapetvaa kaaretu.m va.t.tati. (AA. iii. 303) Commentary "In the seventh sutta, activities of selling are called "trading". The phrase "by an upaasaka" means by one who has gone to the Three Refuges. Having someone make weaponry, and then selling it, is called "trading in weapons". The selling of humans is called "trading in living beings". The rearing and selling of animals such as pigs and deer is called "trading in flesh". Having someone make anything that is intoxicating, and then selling it, is called "trading in intoxicants". Having someone make a poison, and then selling it, is called "trading in poison". In this regard one should neither undertake any of these trades oneself nor induce another to do so." _________________ .Tiikaa (A`nguttara .Tiikaa to the Va.nijjaa Sutta) sattame "satthava.nijjaa" ti aavudhabha.n.da.m katvaa vaa kaaretvaa vaa kata.m vaa pa.tilabhitvaa tassa vikkayo. "aavudhabha.n.da.m kaaretvaa tassa vikkayo" ti ida.m pana nidassanamatta.m. "suukaramigaadayo posetvaa tesa.m vikkayo" ti suukaramigaadayo posetvaa tesa.m ma.msa.m sampaadetvaa vikkayo. ettha ca satthava.nijjaa paroparaadhanimittataaya akara.niiyaa vuttaa, sattava.nijjaa abhujissabhaavakara.nato, ma.msavisava.nijjaa vadhahetuto, majjava.nijjaa pamaada.t.thaanato. a.t.thama.m uttaanameva. Sub-commentary In the seventh sutta, "trading in weapons" means making weaponry, or having someone else make weaponry, or obtaining weaponry made by someone else [i.e. without one's own instigation] and then selling it. [As for the Atthakathaa's passage,] "having someone make weaponry, and then selling it", this is merely one illustration [of trading in weapons]. [The Atthakathaa's passage] "the rearing and selling of animals such as pigs and deer" means the rearing of animals such as pigs and deer in order to obtain and sell their flesh. Herein, it is said that trading in weapons should not be done because of its being a cause of violence in others; trading in living beings should not be done because it is the cause of another to be deprived of his status as a freeman [or simply, "causes enslavement"]; trading in flesh and in poisons should not be done because it is the cause of killing; trading in intoxicants should not be done because it is the cause of heedlessness. _________________ Other explanations of the "five trades not to be done" are given in the Liinatthappakaasanii and Abhinava.tiikaa on the Saama~n~naphala Sutta, and the Majjhima .Tiikaa on the Bhayabherava Sutta. These explanations differ in the phrasing but are substantially the same in meaning as that of the A`nguttara .Tiikaa. The only significant additions in them are that "trading in poison" is taken to include collecting poisons as well as manufacturing them, and that "trading in flesh" is possibly given a broader scope: "ma.msava.nijjaa" tisuunakaaraadayo viya migasuukaraadike posetvaa ma.msa.m sampaadetvaa vikkayo. "Trading in flesh" means [those occupations] beginning with slaughter-house work, such as rearing animals like deer and pigs, and then obtaining and selling their flesh." I think the implication here is that the animal husbandry referred to in the Atthakathaa is just one example, and that the phrase "[those occupations] beginning with slaughter-house work" would suggest the inclusion of other killing-related occupations such as hunting, fishing and trapping. Best wishes, Dhammanando 44622 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:38pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 173 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (d) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== We may think time and again of the urgency of mindfulness, but inspite of that we can notice that sati very seldom arises. We are impatient and we find it difficult to persevere with the development of satipaììhåna. The suttas mention several factors which hinder “exertion, application, striving”. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Tens, Chapter II, §4, Obstruction) about five mental obstructions which cause wholesome qualities to decline: * "Herein a monk has doubts and waverings about the Teacher. He is not drawn to him, he is not sure about him… Again, monks, a monk has doubts about the Dhamma, about the Sangha ( the Order of monks), about the training… he is vexed with his comrades in the brahma-life, displeased, troubled in mind, come to a stop. In a monk who is thus, his mind inclines not to exertion, to application, to perseverance, to striving…" * We may doubt whether there can be an “ariyan Sangha”, people who have developed the eightfold Path and attained enlightenment. We may have doubts about the usefulness of sati right now, of mindfulness of visible object, sound or any other reality which appears. At the moment of doubt there cannot be right effort. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44623 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:38pm Subject: Review of messages # 27710/ Mahanidana Sutta buddhistmedi... Hi all - Let's review one more message in the "preview set" initiated by Connie for the Mahanidana Sutta Review Series. # 27710 : A dialogue between MichaelB and RobertK ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ It all started with RobK's brief definition of latent tendencies (7 anusayas): "Latent tendencies (anusaya) are subtle defilements that lie dormant 'waiting' for the opportunity to arise as pariyutthana where they are active forms of craving, dosa and wrong view". MichaelB then asked 2 questions: "This description gives the (wrong) impression that the anusaya are not subject to change and may even have some sort of substance. So, <1> which would be a proper description that would dispel this impression?<2> Is there something in the commentaries to this effect?" Some excerpts from RobertK's answers are given as follows: <1> The seven anusayas are: lust for sense pleasure (kamaraganusaya) the latent tendency of aversion (patighanusaya) the latent tendency of conceit (mananusaya) the latent tendency of wrong view (ditthanusaya) the latent tendency of doubt (vicikicchanusaya) the latent tendency of lust for becoming (bhava-raganusaya) the latent tendency of ignorance (avijjanusaya) If there were no anusaya then there could be no conditions for any greed , wrong view or aversion. The arahants have eradicated all anusaya. <2> (A) From VM XXII, 60 : For it is owing to their inveteracy that they are called inherent tendencies (anusaya) since they inhere (anusenti) as cause for the arising of greed for sense desires, etc., again and again." (B.) From Bodhi's "The Great Discourse on Causation" (p65): Almost every moment there is the accumulating of new tendencies. Now perhaps we are kind, polite people but tendencies change - and next life we may be born somewhere we we cannot hear dhamma and we gradually develop strong tendencies to roughness and stupidity. Accumulating is happening right now - the accumulating of understanding (or not) that can be a condition as upanissiya paccaya (support condition) or asevena paccya (repetition condition) for more understanding and so it keeps accumulating until there are enough conditions for insight to arise. Not by self or wanting or freewill but by the right conditions. Tep's comment: ------------------------ The eradication of wrong view through accumulation of right view (abandoned by "seeing") is one of the seven abandonments given in MN 2, Sabbasava Sutta: "There are fermentations to be abandoned by seeing, those to be abandoned by restraining, those to be abandoned by using, those to be abandoned by tolerating, those to be abandoned by avoiding, those to be abandoned by destroying, and those to be abandoned by developing". Please note that abandoning anusayas by "restraining" is the use of indriya-samvara-sila that has been discussed by Sarah. The abandoning of anusayas by "destroying" means wiping out akusala vitakka (the result is samma-sankappa). The abandoning of anusayas by developing is accomplished by developing the seven factors of Awakening. All the seven abandonments are solidly based on yonisomanasikara (wise attention). This sutta is quite good. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002-tb0.html Respectfully, Tep ======= 44624 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) sarahprocter... Hi James (Sukin, Betty & Phil), --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Actually, in this group there is a real need to discuss her > approach because it has a strong influence on the thinking of several > members. However, unfortunately, such a discussion is usually not > very effective because she isn't a member of this group to discuss her > approach herself. I can listen to her tapes, and comment on those (as > I have done) but still she isn't here to clarify any points I might > make. It is like discussing a phantom. .... S: It's true that K.Sujin, the 'phantom', won't be writing any replies herself as she almost never writes. I do have another suggestion, however. Why not address your points/queeries to her here and Sukin or Betty can read them out to here when they meet (usually weekly), record her comments/answers (I believe Sukin has a recorder) and transcribe back (or summarise if that's a problem) for you and the rest of us to see? You could send a few each week. Brief and polite would probably be more likely to elicit responses:-). Of course, the turn around time would be a little slow, but it is for some of our replies anyway. Metta, Sarah p.s [Sukin, perhaps you could confirm you'd be happy to help with this. We might get to see a little more of your posts at the same time:-)). 44625 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right livelihood sarahprocter... Dear Ven Dhammanando, --- Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: > I append translations of the Muula-paalii, Atthakathaa > and .Tiikaa below. .... S: Excellent. Thank you very much indeed for this assistance. It's exactly what I've been interested to see and I'll probably refer to it often. With respect, Sarah ======== > > Va.nijjaa Sutta > > ''pa~ncimaa, bhikkhave, va.nijjaa upaasakena akara.niiyaa. > katamaa pa~nca? satthava.nijjaa, sattava.nijjaa, > ma.msava.nijjaa, majjava.nijjaa, visava.nijjaa -- imaa kho, > bhikkhave, pa~nca va.nijjaa upaasakena akara.niiyaa''ti. > sattama.m. > (AN. iii. 208) > > Discourse on Trades > > These five trades, bhikkhus, should not be > undertaken by an upaasaka. What five? Trading in > weapons, trading in living beings, trading in > flesh, trading in intoxicants, trading in poison. > These then, bhikkhus, are five trades that should > not be undertaken by an upaasaka. > > The seventh. > _________________ > 44626 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:19pm Subject: [dsg] Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfuln buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James (Sukin, Betty & Phil), > S: It's true that K.Sujin, the 'phantom', won't be writing any replies > herself as she almost never writes. I do have another suggestion, however. > This is a very interesting compromise, and I know that you are trying to be conciliatory, but this couldn't possibly work. As I'm sure you have found with your correspondence with Bhikkhu Bodhi, it takes direct communication to reach a clarification of points. Communication is a give and take between people. Could you have communicated with B. Bodhi by asking simple questions to a third party, have that third party go to him and ask the question (without being able to clarify if necessary), then B. Bodhi speaks the answer and the third party writes out the reply (possibly missing information or wording it differently), and then you have to wait weeks and weeks for any response? In today's age of instant communication, that would be ridiculous. If B. Bodhi, a famous bhikkhu of the highest stature and reputation, can take the time to correspond in person and answer questions from the members of this group, then surely K. Sujin can do the same. Metta, James 44627 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 0:13am Subject: Is "good friend" rupa or nama? philofillet Hi all Today I was listening to a talk in which natural decisive support condition was discussed. Sarah asked Kh Sujin about weather, which is one of the n.d.s.cs and Kh Sujin confirmed that in that case the conditioning factors are to be reduced to rupas - the temperature, the pressure etc. Then the "good friend" which is also considered a n.d.s.c came up and it was agreed (though not emphatically enough to stop me from wondering if it was a full answer) that good friend as conditioning factor is also rupa, as visible object, as sound of voice. I hadn't thought about it before, but I would have thought that it is the wisdom of the good friend, the panna that is the conditioning factor of more importance - in other words, a nama. That's what I *would* have thought but now there is a fog when I think about whether panna arising through one person can condition cittas in another person. -If the "good friend" is defined in terms of their ability to help us understand Dhamma, wouldn't it be his or her panna that "counts?" - Is it wrong view to think in terms of panna of one person conditioning cittas of another? Is it just panna conditioning citta, irregardless of whether one or two or 100 people are involved? Thanks in advance for any feedback. Metta, Phil 44628 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 0:47am Subject: Talk on mana (pt 1) harsh and restless cittas ( was [dsg] Conceit and dosa ) philofillet Hi all > > Do you remember the talk I'm referring to? > ... > S: Not sure - are you referring to the Burma tapes? Definitely not with > dosa. As it happens, the cassette with that talk came to the top of the pile today. It's from Burma, Oct. 17, 2003. Here's some of it: Jon: When the mana is there, mixed up with the wishing for the well being of.. Kh Sujin: Different moments. Jon: But the characteristic of one vs. the other will be... Kh Sujin: I think mana can be known when it arises, like dosa. It's hard, it's harsh, it's not moderate. (This may have been part of what threw me off. The word "harsh" has such aversive connotations - I wouldn't have associated it with mana, but rather with the dosa that arises when our lobha-rooted self-image is thrown for a loop. But perhaps all akusala cetasikas are harsh in some way, just as they are unstable - even though they may seem to the ignorant mind to be strong and agreeable?) Jon: Mostly I would say though that mana is more apparent in one's daily life when it conditions dosa, as it often does, because the other person hasn't acted to us in the way they should. But the mana that comes with being a bit pleased with oneself, for example, seems different somehow, because one is a condition for dosa and the other is a condition for attachment, or pleasant feeling. Sarah: I think that the first one may just be attachment to oneself, like "why didn't he treat me properly. It may just be clinging to oneself, finding oneself important. Sometimes it's not clear whether it's attachment, or mana, or even self-view, they follow each other so quickly. Kh Sujin: When one is trying so hard to know, that's not the moment of understanding. But whenever it arises, it has its own characteristic. Like dosa has its own characteristic, and mana has its own characteristic too. It's the moment of uneasiness, at that moment of having mana. Sarah: How can it be moment of uneasiness, when it's accompanying lobha-mula citta? Kh Sujin: Because all akusala are uneasy. Someone (clarifying): Restless. Kh Sujin: Restless. (Ph: This "restless" might be related to the "harshness" in some way. BTW,I thought the only cittas that are accompanied by restlessness are rooted only in moha, without lobha or dosa. But here it seems that all akusala cittas are restless, irregardless of the hetus.) I'll type out more later. Metta, Phil p.s Sarah - re that paraphrase of the point you made that caused me to forget about the iron. As soon as it comes around, I'll post it. I know I tend to be a little too free about paraphrasing people. 44629 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:16am Subject: Musings10 – Livelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= sarahprocter... Dear Ken O, Htoo, Robert K, Ven Dhammanando, Chris, Azita & All, (This series of ‘Musings’ are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) Dhp Verse 124. “If there is no wound on the hand, one may handle poison; poison does not affect one who has no wound; there can be no evil for one who has no evil intention.” We discussed various concerns regarding right livelihood further as others have mentioned. Various scenarios were mentioned such as selling or purchasing alcohol, renting a premise to those engaged in questionable practices, assisting in an operating theatre when abortions are performed and so on. As both the verse above and the commentaries to the Va.nijjaa Sutta indicate (as just quoted*), it is the ‘evil intention’ that is indicative of the wrong livelihood, not necessarily the actions observed. For example, the trading in flesh which is avoided by an upasaka (“one who has gone to the Three Refuges”) refers (according to the Tiika) to “the rearing and killing of these (animals) in order to obtain and sell their flesh, or causing others to rear and kill them.” If we sell alcohol or pets in a store, rent out the premises or assist a surgeon in the case above, usually there’s no intention to make anyone intoxicated, to take life or to encourage any illegal or disreputable practices in the rented out premise. We don’t know the intentions or accumulations of the customers. We don’t need to think of a ‘whole situation’. Unwholesome kamma is just a moment of intention. As we know, there are likely to be many moments of wrong speech, deeds or livelihood often during the day when, for example, we don’t speak correctly in our work.** Clearly a sotapanna has no need for any abstention from such wrong speech or deeds in the course of his/her livelihood because at the moment of lokuttara (supramundane) path consciousness, any such inclination to wrong livelihood has been eradicated for good and sila of this kind has been perfected. Before we discussed the example of the dropping of the bomb which I’d heard and found helpful to reflect on further. I wrote: “As to the intention or kamma, it depends whether there is the intention to kill or whether it’s one’s duty to just drop the bomb, without knowing what will happen. There may not be any intention to kill people, but one may just have been given the order.”*** Some may question whether it really is possible for a sotapanna to work in the military in such a way or aid a killer, an alcoholic or someone else who is clearly involved in wrong livelihood. The answer, I think, is ‘yes’. Even if one knows what actions may follow, one may still be assisting with metta or other wholesome mental factors, knowing one cannot prevent the others’ deeds. In the commentary to the Dhp verse above, we read about the wife of a hunter who was a sotapanna and whose husband was a hunter. She’d assist him with his nets, bows and arrows when he went hunting. When asked about this, the Buddha answered, "Bhikkhus, the sotapannas do not kill, they do not wish others to get killed. The wife of the hunter was only obeying her husband in getting things for him. Just as the hand that has no wound is not affected by poison, so also, because she has no intention to do evil she is not doing any evil." (full account below****). In other words, if it’s not one’s intention to do evil, there’s no wrong action involved. We may think now about following the precepts or avoiding particular scenarios, but it is only at actual moments of abstention from unwholesome deeds that there is the training that will lead to the absolute abstention of the sotapanna, like for the hunter’s wife. There cannot be such purification of sila without the real understanding of when wholesome and unwholesome intentions and other mental states arise momentarily. To stress the point, the same speech or deeds, such as the assistance with the bows and arrows, can be performed with different kinds of mental states – wholesome and unwholesome. In this regard, we discussed how sila can be referred to as kusala (wholesome), akusala (unwholesome) or avyakata (indeterminate, i.e referring to the kiriya cittas of the arahant). For example, we might assist a hunter with metta, with a wish to aid the act of killing or because we’ve been instructed to. We all have many unwholesome moments in a day -- such as those concerned with wrong livelihood -- but we can learn to see that when they arise, there is no self involved. They are momentary wrong intentions or kamma that need to be seen for what they are with detachment and awareness. This is how they can be understood and eventually eradicated. Metta, Sarah * http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43971 **http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/44588 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/44621 *** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43150 **** web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/dmpada2f.htm Dhammapada, Verse124: IX (8) ,The Story of Kukkutamitta While residing at the Veluvana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (124) of this book with reference to the hunter Kukkutamitta and his family. At Rajagaha there was once a rich man's daughter who had attained Sotapatti Fruition as a young girl. One day, Kukkutamitta, a hunter, came into town in a cart to sell venison. Seeing Kukkutamitta the hunter, the rich young lady fell in love with him immediately; she followed him, married him and lived with him in a small village. As a result of that marriage, seven sons were born to them and in course of time, all the sons got married. One day, the Buddha surveyed the world early in the morning with his supernormal power and found that the hunter, his seven sons and their wives were due for attainment of Sotapatti Fruition. So, the Buddha went to the place where the hunter had set his trap in the forest. He put his footprint close to the trap and seated himself under the shade of a bush, not far from the trap. When the hunter came, he saw no animal in the trap; he saw the footprint and surmised that someone must have come before him and let cut the animal. So, when he saw the Buddha under the shade of the bush, he took him for the man who had freed the animal from his trap and flew into a rage. He took out his bow and arrow to shoot at the Buddha, but as he drew his bow, he became immobilized and remained fixed in that position like a statue. His sons followed and found their father; they also saw the Buddha at some distance and thought he must he the enemy of their father. All of them took out their bows and arrows to shoot at the Buddha, but they also became immobilized and remained fixed in their respective postures. When the hunter and his sons failed to return, the hunter's wife followed them into the forest, with her seven daughters-in-law. Seeing her husband and all her sons with their arrows aimed at the Buddha, she raised both her hands and shout: "Do not kill my father." When her husband heard her words, he thought, "This must be my father-in-law", and her sons thought, "This must be our grandfather"; and thoughts of loving-kindness came into them. Then the lady said to them, ''Put away your bows and arrows and pay obeisance to my father". The Buddha realized that, by this time, the minds of the hunter and his son; had softened and so he willed that they should be able to move and to put away their bows and arrows. After putting away their bows and arrows, they pad obeisance to the Buddha and the Buddha expounded the Dhamma to them. In the end, the hunter, his seven sons and seven daughters-in-law, all fifteen of them, attained Sotapatti Fruition. Then the Buddha returned to the monastery and told Thera Ananda and other bhikkhus about the hunter Kukkutamitta and his family attaining Sotapatti Fruition in the early part of the morning. The bhikkhus then asked the Buddha, "Venerable Sir, is the wife of the hunter who is a sotapanna, also not guilty of taking life, if she has been getting things like nets, bows and arrows for her husband when he goes out hunting?" To this question her Buddha answered, "Bhikkhus, the sotapannas do not kill, they do not wish others to get killed. The wife of the hunter was only obeying her husband in getting things for him. Just as the hand that has no wound is not affected by poison, so also, because she has no intention to do evil she is not doing any evil." ========================================== 44630 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (333) htootintnaing Dear Evan, As your reply post is very clear and it reveals that the message that I intended to transfer from my post 'Dhamma Thread (333)', I do not have any special thing to add. I mean I think you feel 'the identical copy' of what I deeply feel in my inner self. But for the sake of communication, I will reply your whole post as 'in-line reply' or 'reply in the made of line by line discussion'. When many lines or sentences are agreed, they will be in paragraph as in the original post that is they will be intact and undistingrated. My reply will largely be just 'yes' 'agreed' 'of course' 'indeed' mode. With Metta, Htoo Naing You wrote in your reply like followings; --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: Hi Htoo, Interesting post on kamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have still been learning. Once The Buddha picked up a handful of leaves and said, 'Bhikkhave, or bhikkhus!'. 'This is what I preach and what I know is like the leaves in the whole forest. While just a handful or fistfull of Dhamma in The Buddha hand suffices many many beings to be liberated, we do not need to bother to know everything. Even Venerable Sariputta would not know as much as The Buddha. I tried to write the topic 'Kamma' to be interesting so that wrong assumption can be replaced by right thinking pattern (borrowing your words) and develop right view. I do not say my post on Kamma that is 'Dhamma Thread (333)' is a complete post. There are many interesting texts regarding Kamma. What I have written is just for kicking-off. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan then continued: I have been thinking about what it is we "take" with us into our next lifetimes because many in the world are focussed on building up their material wealth especially in the western world. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is exactly what happens in my society as well. This happens in all societies. As the current topic is on Kamma, we would not lead to other directions of discussion. Yes. Almost all people are following material wealth. They do rely on material wealth and will say that wealth has to be searched or else there will not be wealth with them. When there is no wealth, then they will not be happy. This is the primary force that pushes all people doing searching for wealth. When wealth is reaped, people become satisfied. But this still does not stop. They want their wealth with them when they die. Some societies even practise that when human being dies, wealth is put in the dead body and in the coffin so that the dead being might use his wealth in next life. Some try to transfer their wealth in the form of meritorious deeds or wholesome deeds. This is also a primary source to do sankhara or committing kamma or actions. People reap their wealth. They satisfy. They want to bring the wealth with them. Some do know that this is impossible. But they have some knowledge that there is a way to transfer to next life. That is by doing good kamma or good deeds or good actions before they die in this current life. Actually kamma is following right now and after. I am spreading the inner things even though some of my posts may not very clear to readers. People think that wealth is essential and when they do have wealth they do want to bring with them to next life. But in actual sense, kamma is following even right now. That is why it is compared with shade. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: This I saw as a problem because it is quite clear that even though material wealth provides pleasure for the five chords of sensual pleasure, it cannot accompany one into the next lifetime continue providing its pleasure. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are right. Material wealth cannot accompany one into the next lifetime continue providing its pleasure. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: So what is it that one "takes" with one in the next lifetime? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This point as I understand is that we are talking in daily life language. The answer is that there is nothing that one takes with one in the next lifetime except the kamma he or she has committed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: The mind (citta/cetasika)? As you correctly state below [Htoo:--> sorry for deleting my old post below. I snipped it as we have both read. If someone in this list has an interest please refer to Dhamma Thread (333) for 'As you correctly state below' said by Evan. Mods will be happy with snipping here ;-)], Evan continued: no, since they rise and fall continuously in rapid succession, they don't even accompany us in this lifetime. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is true. But the wealthy are not wealthy with what they should be. That is they do think that their wealth does accompany them and gives them the power of doing everything. But in actual sense, no wealth is following them right now. What follow is just anicca and dukkha as wealth is anatta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: The conclusion I came to (flame suit on) is that the mind has a tendancy to develop patterns of thought. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I like your new 'words' of patterns of thought or thought-pattern. To become ariyas in my sense means 'to be already trained to develop a new style of tendency of developing 'patterns of thought'. Vedanaa paccaya tanhaa. Feeling conditions craving. As arahats have already been trained [by arahatta magga nana], their thought patterns become totally different from non-ariyas. Because of this training feeling can no more condition craving in so- called their selves. That is even though there are many feeling through out the current life of arahats, they do not have craving any more while all other beings of non-arahat do have craving in different forms. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: These mind patterns result in our behaviour and likes/dislikes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Exactly. I totally agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan: It is these mind patterns that we "take" with us from lifetime to lifetime. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True. Some may say that as 'accumulation'. Some may say that as 'tendency'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: Then I concluded that these mind patterns must be related to kamma because the Buddha clearly states that our kamma follows us into our next lifetimes and nothing else. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True. The patterns are all kamma with the exception of arahatta- patterns. Nothing follow us in next life except our patterns. But in arahats as arahatta-patterns are not kamma there does not follow anything and that is final bliss and eternal bliss. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: Well, if that was all there was, just my thoughts on the subject, I would not have written this email. However, last weekend I went to the Bodhivana Monastery, East Warburton to offer dhanna to the monks. At the monastery, Ajahn Kalyano, while answering someone else's question, -------- Evan continued: talked about mind conditioning and made the statement that ones conditioning is one's kamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think this makes sense. What I understand from your reply post is ... One's conditioning = One's sankhaara = One's kamma So I agree with that venerable's talk of answering someone else's question. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: I made the connection that I couldn't make before and all the pieces fell together. What I called mind patterns and what Ajahn Kalyano called mind conditioning ARE our kamma. This is what we take with us. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. Yes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: Even though it is not clearly visible, it is visible in our tendancies to think, speak and act in certain ways. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sure. You are making sense. There are people who have tendency to behave in aversive way. There are people who have tendency to behave in sensuous way. There are people who have tendency to behave in ignorant way. There are people who have tendency to behave in exploratory way. There are people who have tendency to behave in clear way. There are people who have tendency to behave in intelligent way. Yes. I agree. The tendency may well be visible in the mind door in our inner self. Some certain animal has teeth and canine and no other weapon. There is a tendency to use canine as a weapon. If the head is tapped, the tapper will be bitten by the canine. If the ear is twisted, the twister will be bitten by the canine. If the snout is rubbed, the rubber will be bitten by the canine. If the tail is pulled, the puller will be bitten by the canine. This kind of reproducibility is tendency and it is because of that tendency that behaviour arises. This is acting in a certain way. If there is wisdom and mindfulness to see these things, one will see one day that there are tendencies and these are patterns of thoughts and these should be modified into non-operative patterns of thought or functional patterns of thought if they want to avoid suffering forever. What I agree above in your sentence is that 'it is visible in our tendencies to think'. This is true for those who do know their mind. If not, they will not know the tendency. Examples are someone may constantly be saying that there are only naama and ruupa and nothing else in this world. But that someone does not know his tendency and when he is ignorant that is when he departs temporarily from his text-books of Dhamma in his thought process then he may be behaving according to his tendency. That is 1. aversive 2. sensuous 3. ignorant 4. exploratory 5. clear 6. intelligent tendency. You said, 'it is visible in our tendencies to think, speak, and act in certain way.'. You may see this. I may see this. Some may see this. But not all beings see this tendency. Actually there are many many infinite beings who never know these tendencies. I said 'infinite beings'. Because there is greater hell-population than human beings. There is greater animal-population than human population. Even among human beings there are many who never know these tendencies. Because they all are following the routine path of from-birth-to- death and constantly searching sensuous things and never think out to clear up all these tendencies of thought patterns that always lead to new and new life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: This of course conditions the world around us in how others think, talk and act of/with/about us and this is our kamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As soon as we change our patterns a bit to better profile, this change has tremendous effect on the whole world. Example is 'start to breed universal friendliness'. Then if many follow this there will not be any wars, there is no need to use lock, there is no need to contract and the whole world will change to a new world of happiness. But this is rare to happen as there are many different ruling things among dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Evan continued: Well, it was kind of a revelation to see the link for me so I thought I would share it with you and see what you think about this. With Metta, Evan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I clearly see that you have understood on the post and compared with your daily life and experiences. In this reply, you will see that I included all of your words. I just snipped away all my old post. And I reply each and every word, each and every sentence of your reply post. While some do appreciate this style of reply, some never appreciate and they even shift to different mode of thinking. If you can think over on this reply post, you will see that I do not include any personal things at all. This is Dhamma sharing. This is Dhamma sharing. Book-sharing, text-sharing, notes-sharing etc can be done anywhere in this world where there are materials. Examples are 'Regarding this dhamma please read this book. regarding that dhamma please read that book written by so and so'. Kamma is always with us. What we need to do is to wash the kamma till it becomes clean. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44631 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:56am Subject: Re: Is "good friend" rupa or nama? htootintnaing Hi all Today I was listening to a talk in which natural decisive support condition was discussed. Sarah asked Kh Sujin about weather, which is one of the n.d.s.cs and Kh Sujin confirmed that in that case the conditioning factors are to be reduced to rupas - the temperature, the pressure etc. Then the "good friend" which is also considered a n.d.s.c came up ... snip ... snip ...cittas in another person. -If the "good friend" is defined in terms of their ability to help us understand Dhamma, wouldn't it be his or her panna that "counts?" - Is it wrong view to think in terms of panna of one person conditioning cittas of another? Is it just panna conditioning citta, irregardless of whether one or two or 100 people are involved? Thanks in advance for any feedback. Metta, Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Phil, This is not a feedback. This is just a reply. You have raised good questions. I will be part of audience. NDSCs are always interesting and have immense implications. There are 24 patthana texts. These 24 texts are not 24 paccayas or 24 conditions. I mention this because as the number '24' is the same, some may confuse with texts and 24 paccaya or 24 conditions. These 24 conditions are just a summary of facts in the whole of 24 Patthana texts. There are 24 different conditions that govern dhamma in different ways. Again, if these 24 conditions are summerised, there will only be 4 conditions. Upanissaya paccaya or decisive-support condition is just only one of 4 conditions. Again NDSCs or pakatupanissaya paccaya is just a part of Upanissaya paccaya. This is very wide subject. I will be part of audience in this thread. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44632 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 4:09am Subject: Dhamma Thread (334) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Kamma paccaya in the 24 conditional dhamma or 24 paccaya dhamma says something about kamma and its implications. There are 2 kinds of kamma- paccaya. They are sahajaata-kamma paccaya and naanakkhanika-kamma paccaya. Kamma is said to be 'the cetana which pushes the mind to commit an action'. This also comprises that 'the cetata that arises when an action is or was committed'. The cetana that arises and pushes the mind committing an action is sahajata-kamma. All the actions in the past did have cetanas when those actions were committed. The shade of that cetana cetasika always follow the current citta as long as citta arises. It is also kamma and such kamma is hard to be classified as realities. But they have always been there since actions were committed. Such kind of kamma is naanakkhanika kamma. Kamma do have the power to bring up their results. When the results are not given rise yet, kamma may wrongly be assumed as non-existing. But when the resulats are visibly coming, there is no way to escape. Is it fair 'to avoid what one did bad to other' by praying to someone who never exists? Can we stop kamma not to give their results? May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44633 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:39am Subject: Free from Fear...!!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Safe Release from all Anxiety: The young deity Subrahma once asked the Buddha: Always frightened is this Mind! Always agitated is this Mind! About present problems. About future problems. If there is a release from this Anxiety please explain it to me... Whereupon the Blessed Buddha declared: I see no other safety for any living being except the control of the senses, except the relinquishment of all, except the seclusion linking to Enlightenment! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 54 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44634 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:05am Subject: Re: Talk on mana (pt 1) harsh and restless cittas ( was [dsg] Conceit and dosa ) sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Philip wrote: > > Kh Sujin: I think mana can be known when it arises, like dosa. > It's hard, it's harsh, it's not moderate. > > (This may have been part of what threw me off. The word "harsh" > has such aversive connotations - I wouldn't have associated it with > mana, but rather with the dosa that arises when our lobha-rooted > self-image is thrown for a loop. But perhaps all akusala cetasikas > are harsh in some way, just as they are unstable - even though they > may seem to the ignorant mind to be strong and agreeable?) ... S: maybe like harsh, the opposite of gentle or calm? No aversion with mana though. ... > Kh Sujin: Because all akusala are uneasy. > > Someone (clarifying): Restless. > > Kh Sujin: Restless. > > (Ph: This "restless" might be related to the "harshness" in some > way. BTW,I thought the only cittas that are accompanied by > restlessness are rooted only in moha, without lobha or dosa. But > here it seems that all akusala cittas are restless, irregardless of > the hetus.) ... S: Yes, uddhacca cetasika - restlessness arises with all akusala cittas. Thx for clarifying. Metta, Sarah p.s on the other one - not all 'relating to others' is akusala - there can be kindness, sympathy etc. But when self comes into the picture as in 'I'm xyz like you', conceit may well be there....let panna test it out....:-/ ======= 44635 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:34am Subject: Ekamuni Bhikhu's Abhidhamma Knowledge buddhistmedi... Dear all DSG members - Bhikkhu Samahita has posted a lot of messages which span over wide areas in the suttas. His Abhidhamma knowledge is also impressive, although he has not presented it as often. Recently, I asked him a few questions. His answers are very good and I think it may be useful to post a copy of Bhikkhu Samahita's replies here for us to enjoy. [ SD = SariputtaDhamma, a Yahoo! Group] [My Questions] Ven. Samahita & all SD Members - I appreciate your excellent answers in the last post. In the post "Four Grades of Vision" this week there are some terms that are not familiar to me. I would very much be thankful for your help to provide their definitions and the original Pali words with some information about their background. Vision (Is this a nimita?) Continuous sequence of discrete conscious moments Stream of consciousness Questions: 1. What are the conscious moments? Can the conscious moments be discrete sometimes, and continuous some other times? Why? 2. How does the monk experience an established unbroken stream of consciousness in any world? Respectfully, Tep ======= --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Friends: > > The Four Grades of Vision: > > The Blessed Buddha said: > > In this some recluse or priest by means of alert & > energetic effort > enthusiasm, proper rational attention & > concentrated focus reaches > absorption on this sole thought: In this foul body > of disgusting things > enclosed by skin, there are head & body hairs, > nails, teeth, skin, flesh, > sinews, bones, marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, > pleura, spleen, lungs, > mesentery, intestines, stomach, excrement, bile, > lymph, pus, blood, > sweat, fat, tears, tallow, spittle, snot, urine & > joint-fluid. > This is the first attainment of Vision... > > Having done this and gone beyond it, he regards & > perceives any body, > own & others, as only a set of bones covered with > flesh, vessels & skin. > This is the second attainment of Vision... > > Having done this and gone further, he comes to > understand & directly > experience this continuous sequence of discrete > conscious moments > established & manifesting both in this world and > the other worlds. > This is the third attainment of Vision... > > Finally, having done this & gone even further than > beyond that, he comes to > understand & directly experience this unbroken > stream of consciousness > neither established nor manifesting in this world > nor in any other world. > This is the fourth attainment of Vision... > > Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. > Digha Nikaya III 105-5 > http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html > > Friendship is the Greatest ! > > Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. ---------------------------------------------- [His Answers] Dear Tep & friends: > Vision = dassana > What are the conscious moments? Any conscious moment is in itself still, and lasts ~ 1/1000 billionth of a second... Our perceived continuous consciousness is thus actually a blinking though very fast. Existence is thus a discrete blinking, like pearls on a thread each conditioning the next link. These states fall into two broad classes: the unconstructed state, which is solely Nibbana, and the conditioned states, which are the momentary mental and material phenomena, that constitute the process of experience. This is in the range of the Higher Science = AbhiDhamma: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/abhiman.html : - ] ---------------------------------- Respectfully, Tep 44636 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tep / Review messages # 16499 and 21601 ashkenn2k Hi Tep > > I think there will be no trouble such as 'lobha' and attachment to > ' self ' as long as we look at the practice, along with the evaluation of the training for improvement, simply as a Dhamma learning process- it is just a dhamma - without thinking 'I want result soon for my self '. The right practice is to let go of self and all defilements along the way, while having a clear sense of direction in the background -- this sense of direction toward the goal (fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation) will never ever interfere with our advancement. This way we will be reducing lobha, dosa and moha every day while we are advancing more rapidly toward the goal! k: isnt just looking at the present as not I, myself and mine is the best practise ;-). Why go all the length to do the other while the moment is just understanding the three characterisitics will be the most beneficial and in fact the fastest way is through this way. When there is understanding in the present moment, there will be restraint from all kinds of akusala. Ken O 44637 From: Ken O Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right livelihood ashkenn2k Hi Ven Dhammanando, Htoo, Rob K thanks for the help esp Ven Dhammanando who took time and effort to quote it from the commentaries. That helps to dissipate a lot of my doubts. It always good to have great dhamma friends a round when I am perplex over dhamma matters. Cheers to all of you. Ken O 44638 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:00am Subject: [dsg] Re: Tep / Review messages # 16499 and 21601- Ken O buddhistmedi... Dear KenO - It is always a pleasure to exchange our thoughts on the Dhamma once in a while. > > k: isnt just looking at the present as not I, myself and mine is the > best practise ;-). Why go all the length to do the other while the > moment is just understanding the three characterisitics will be the > most beneficial and in fact the fastest way is through this way. > When there is understanding in the present moment, there will be > restraint from all kinds of akusala. > You rightfully focus on the present realities, but you may have forgotten that the stream of cittas is also aware of other phenomena that are going on "in the background". I'm talking about such background/foreground activities from the point of view of a meditator from my own experience, rather than from book/intellectual perspective. So I hope you'll forgive me if I don't use the technical terms of the Abhidhamma world. Try kayagatasati bhavana based on the body postures (walking, sitting, standing, lying down) as an example. While you are sitting the awareness (sati-sampajanna) is on the sitting posture, yet you're also aware of other realities (like breathing, sensations and thoughts) in the background. When you do breath meditation in the second tetrad (vesdananupassana), the (in and out) breathing activity is in the background and the 'foreground' awareness is on piti, sukha and cittasankhara respectively. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Tep > > > 44639 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:39am Subject: Re: conditions for right awareness. buddhistmedi... Hello Phil (Nina, Sarah and Ken O) - Phil always has keen Dhamma observations. Phil: In any case, I have been aware of not wanting to lean too cozily on "being mindful of present realities" because that is way beyond me. Nevertheless, there can be peace and a kind of release from extended unwholesomeness even from intellectual understanding of them. And the intellectual understanding may help to condition something more deeply liberating. Tep: It is way beyond me too. The intellectual understanding is good for intellectual people, but it does not have strength (bala); so it is like a drop of water falling onto a hot pan -- it is not enough to cool down the pan. It will cool the pan if many drops are applied repeatedly. Now, if the hot pan is constantly heated (it is kept on fire) there is no way the pan may be cooled at all. The heat here is analogous to the defilements, and to be "cooled" is analogous to "liberating". Khun Sujin said: > > We read in order to understand this moment. > We listen in order to understand this moment. > We consider in order to understand this moment. > When one is aware and there is no progress, one can know why: there is not enough understanding > of the details of the Dhamma. Tep: Beautifully said! Does she also see the importance of occasionally stepping away from the present-moment understanding in order to review the whole process of consciousness so far, and assess the accomplishment with respect to what remains to be done? " After re-entry into life continuum, adverting, etc., arise again in the same way for the purpose of reviewing fruition, and so on. With the arising of these he reviews the path, he reviews the fruition, he rviews the defilements abandoned, he reviews the defilements still remaining, and he reviews nibbana." VM XXII, 19 (page 699). Reviewing and assessment of progress is necessary to move from one ariya level to the next one higher. So it seems reasonable that it should be useful for non-ariya puggalas as well? Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hi Nina, Tep and all > > > We cannot > > predict what the next moment will be like. When there is > attachment we can > > see it as just a reality. > 44640 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: Talk on mana (pt 1) harsh and restless cittas ( was [dsg] Conceit and dosa ) nilovg Hi Phil, Each akusala citta is accompanied by uddhacca, restlessness. But one type of moha-muulacitta is called accompanied by restlessness in order to differentiate it from the type of moha-muulacitta accompanied by doubt. Nina. op 21-04-2005 09:47 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > I thought the only cittas that are accompanied by > restlessness are rooted only in moha, without lobha or dosa. But > here it seems that all akusala cittas are restless, irregardless of > the hetus.) 44641 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Review of messages # 27710/ Mahanidana Sutta nilovg Dear Tep, the sutta is very good, but just a remark re the translation. This is about the abandoning of the asavas (fermentations or intoxicants), not the latent tendencies. Asavas are defilements arising with the akusala citta. Whereas anusayas, latent tendencies, do not arise with akusala citta, they are just accumulated tendencies lying dormant in the citta. They can be eradicated by lokuttara magga-citta. Nina. op 21-04-2005 06:38 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > MN 2, Sabbasava Sutta: "There are fermentations to be abandoned > by seeing, those to be abandoned by restraining, those to be > abandoned by using, those to be abandoned by tolerating, those to > be abandoned by avoiding, those to be abandoned by destroying, > and those to be abandoned by developing". > > Please note that abandoning anusayas by "restraining" is the use of > indriya-samvara-sila that has been discussed by Sarah. 44642 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is "good friend" rupa or nama? nilovg Hi Phil, natural decisive support- condition is very wide and includes also concepts. Thus, situations, or persons can be favorable or unfavorable. When listening to the good friend, certainly, sound can be a condition. It depends on the aspect one views the matter. You ask: Is it wrong view to think in terms of panna of one person conditioning cittas of another? That sounds complicated to me. The person who speaks may be wise, such as the Buddha. But the listener may not be ready to receive the Dhamma. As Htoo says, we have to take into account that there are many conditions operating, not just one. Nina. op 21-04-2005 09:13 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > > Today I was listening to a talk in which natural decisive support > condition was discussed. 44643 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results/ Striving nilovg Dear Tep, I just answer this part of your message. op 19-04-2005 08:20 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > How is it possible for the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhammas (4 > satipatthana + 4 iddhipada + 5 indriya + 5 bala + 7 bojjhanga + 8 ariya- > magga) to go to the culmination of their development by means of > your " process of development" that begins with "intellectual > understanding and considering different dhammas that appear"? This > process of development, is it effortless and free from lobha - even > though the practitioner is not yet free from the defilements? Why would > the "considering different dhammas that appear" lead to lokuttara > panna and arahatta-magga eventually? Frankly, I have found it hard to > accept. But if it can, how long would this process take us? I think > this "process" is like trying to fill a large-and-dry swimming pool by > dropping water in it, one drop at a time. ----------------- N: One drop at a time, it has to be like that. Considering dhamma amd then it has to go by the stages of insight. If there is any hastening, no progress. ----------- T: By not thinking about the end result, how can there be a review of > progress? Without reviewing of progress, how can there be right effort > to improve the practice? ------------- N: If we are only concerned with this moment now, developing understanding of this moment, there is no thinking of progress. This is better, thinking is only thinking. We should not think of the past, and the future has not come yet, there is only the present moment. (Sutta of the auspicious). The practice is done with paññaa, and this is, accompanied by right effort already. Because of conditions, not because of thinking of effort. Perhaps this also answers another post of yours: I think that wrong view has to be abandoned first. Lobha, dosa and moha have to be realized as non-self, otherwise they cannot be reduced. I think the dhamma learning process cannot be rapid. We have deeply rooted latent tendencies. Nina. 44644 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings9 – Guarding, Restraint & Wise Attention nilovg Dear Tep, op 20-04-2005 22:01 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > T: Indeed I do feel that I am able to comprehend nama-rupa more > today than yesterday. Every word you wrote above seems > to "penetrate" my consciousness deeper. Is the fully developed > understanding of the nama-rupa characteristics, excluding the > tilakkhana, known as naama-ruupa-pariccheda-naana? --------------- N: naama-ruupa-pariccheda-naana is only the beginning, it is the first of the three stages of tender insight, taruna vipassana. Not yet principal insight, maha-vipassana ñaa.na. But, it is the beginning of direct understanding. A sure and good beginning. This stage cannot be foregone. --------------- T: In the Thai suttas there is one common word that appears very often, it is "kamnod-roo". Have you seen it too? > Does it mean sati-sampajanna, or anupassana, or what else? I think > the literal meaning of kamnod-roo is "focusing to know". --------------- N: I often heard it. Kh sujin said that if one does not understand what satipatthana is one is not able to know what it means. People take it for focussing, but this is confusing. I think sati-sampajanna is closer to the meaning. One could translate it by : to realize, indicating that it is not theoretical knowledge. --------------- T: In the Thai > version of MN 149 it says that the Bhikkhu must "kamnod-roo" the five > clinging aggregates with great(abhi) wisdom(panna), .... Thanissaro Bhikkhu translated kamnod- roo as "comprehend", and abhi-panna as "direct knowledge". But I feel the deep meaning is missing. ----------- N: We can use different words so long as we understand that it is not theoretical knowledge and not mere focussing. ------------- T: N: Perhaps we could discuss more about characteristics. > > T: Please do that and I will be delighted. --------------- N: I think when the occasion arises? Nina. 44645 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 – Livelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= nilovg Hi Sarah, your example of the hunter's wife is in the sutta. It is a specific case. These people were ripe to become sotapannas. But the other examples, I have doubts about. We would like to help others not to get into difficult situations, so I think I would avoid these things. The same with the bomb, I really doubt this. But of course averybody has to judge himself what he will do. All such situations seem rather speculative. Nina. op 21-04-2005 12:16 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > If we sell alcohol or pets in a store, rent out the premises or assist a > surgeon in the case above, usually there’s no intention to make anyone > intoxicated, to take life or to encourage any illegal or disreputable > practices in the rented out premise. We don’t know the intentions or > accumulations of the customers. 44646 From: simon ralfe Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:12am Subject: Simon sralfe Hi everyone As requested here's a little about myself. I'm a GP , and have been involved with buddhism for 4 years, starting after a trip to India and Nepal. I have had the good fortune to meet many sangha, and regularly visit Chithurst , West Sussex. And I'm keen to learn from whatever source is available! Thanks Simon. 44647 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles Hi Ken H, You said, "We still disagree on the meaning of the Kalama Sutta. You believe that rejecting the Buddha's teaching can sometimes be a good (kusala) thing to do. I won't try to change your mind because I don't think it matters much: It is only when we misunderstand some part of the teaching that we are ever likely to reject it. So our emphasis should be on right understanding." ............................................................ Good point, about Right Understanding. But keep in mind that it does not mean changing the meaning of something to make it fit, or to deny that it does not fit, a given situation. ************************************** C: > > > What do you mean by "saddha, vicikiccha, adosa, dosa, and so on?" ------------------------------------------ KH: > > At any point in time, including now, there are really only paramattha dhammas. The reason for studying the Buddha's teaching is to know those dhammas. > > ................................. To me, the paramittas are six in number and they have nothing to do with reality or nature. They are about mental factors like generosity. ****************************************** C: > The only one I recognize is dosa, i.e., suffering. ----------------------------- Ken: We should both make an effort to learn more Abhidhamma. Then, when we read the suttas, we will always know that the Buddha was talking about the five khandhas (dhammas that arise in a single moment and then disappear forever). Otherwise, we will think concepts (people, places and stories) are real - and dhammas are not real. As I said in a previous post, the Abhidhamma might seem dry and impersonal but that is, after all, the flavour of anatta. So we are making progress. :-) ................................................ Then please define/explain, in plan English, saddha, vicikiccha, adosa, dosa, and anatta. Charles 44648 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 2:34pm Subject: Re: Goodbye DSG (for now anyway) sunnaloka Hi Sarah and everyone, Your words are thoughtful and show that you have saturated mind and heart with the four immeasurable attitudes. ------------------------------ S: I don?t see how your views expressed to Lisa, for example, that ?we are ?in? our innate consciousness all the time......etc? and references to ?our innate natural state....which is unconditioned (asankhata)? either conform with the uprooting of any idea of self or can be shown to be valid even just looking at the suttas. And then there are your comments to Matheesha about ?no supramundane jhana? etc to discuss further. So much scope for interesting dialogue.....:-/ -------------------------------- I really don’t know how productive it would be for me to present sunnatavada and vinnanavada views in a forum based on the orthodox abhidhamma paradigm, but I have heard from a few readers/members of DSG in the last couple of days who are nondualists of one type or another, and so we can take a stab at how nondual sunnatavada and vinnanavada is represented in the Sutta Pitaka, and how sunnatavada and vinnanavada also serve as a useful and valid basis for unravelling and thereby understanding statements of profound panna made by the Kammatthana Thai and Western forest teachers, which clearly cannot be explained/understood using the traditional Theravadin commentarial abhidhamma perspective. Regarding the Kammatthana 'view' , it thoroughly blew my mind when I started reading the venerable teachers such as Ajahn Chah and the others, that these forest monks were making statements that have more to do with early Zen and Mahamudra nondualism than with anything ever stated in the Theravadin abhidhamma tradition. But it’s not surprising really, because Khammatthana, Zen, and Mahamudra are all *practice* traditions, and the resultant panna of practice, if it is to be universally valid, should not depend upon time, culture, or what historical school one belongs to. And so after reading the Khammatthana Ajahns, I thought it would be fruitful to see if their panna can be traced to the Sutta Pitaka -- and lo -- it’s all there. Unsurprisingly though, it has either been thoroughly missed or completely misunderstood by the abhidhamma academia. And so I’m willing to discuss some of these notions on DSG -- to see where it leads more than to attempt to refute or debate abhidhammikas -- because such conflicting debate can easily become counterproductive. With all due respect, even attempting such dialogue with abhidhammikas goes against the advise of the nondual traditions. As a Zen proverb has it: "Don’t discuss poetry with a nonpoet." But first of all I’m going away for a few days to visit my sister. Will check in when I return. S: p.s whereabouts in Canada are you? ------------------------ Conditioned aggregates presently abide in Lethbridge Alberta (pop. ~70,000) -- about a two hour drive south of Calgary or about an hour drive north of Montana (USA) border. Unconditioned citta/vinnana is forever and always nonabiding -- transcends temporal duration (time) and relative location (space) ;-) Metta, Geoff 44649 From: "sunnaloka" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 3:57pm Subject: Re: Goodbye DSG (for now anyway) sunnaloka Hi Joop, Good to hear from you. You perceptively ask: J: What interests me most, is how do you see the relation of the content of your side with the 'emptiness' of Madhyamaka (Nagarjuna) ? In your 'notes' you say you are not endorsing his "The life-process has no thing that distinguishes it from freedom. Freedom has no thing that distinguishes it from the life-process" (MMK XXV-19) But is that all that can be said of this great Buddhist, one of the few who can bridge the gap between Theravada and Mahayana? ---------------------------------------- Nagarjuna was a great mind and anyone reading my presentations of emptiness/suchness/deathless element, etc., with knowledge of his MMK and 70 Stanzas, will recognize that what I’m saying is completely indebted to him (as I imperfectly understand his view). My comments about the above mentioned verse from MMK has nothing to do with the philosophical validity of the statement, and everything to do with the potentially harmful (i.e. anti-soteriological/anti- liberational) consequences of misunderstanding Nagarjuna and thereby misunderstanding that statement. Misunderstanding of that statement, which results in the convoluted notion that he’s asserting that samsara is nirvana, has -- and is to this day -- being used to justify all deviate behaviors of sexual promiscuity, drug and alcohol abuse, etc., which are themselves questionable interpretations of the ‘left-hand path’ upayas of anuttarayoga tantra. I would suggest that Nagarjuna as a devout Buddhist monk would never have endorsed such clearly akusala activities. (This is evident in the Ratnavali if this is indeed his work.) And so I would say that no, he can’t be judged on the basis of that one statement, but given the consequences of that statement -- consequences Nagarjuna probably could never have imagined -- I in good conscience can’t support that statement. But over and above that, the reason that I state that my discussion isn’t ‘Mahayana’ per say, is because it is clearly rooted in the Pali Sutta Pitaka, with no reference to any Mahayana sutras or shastras. ----------------------------- J: David Kalupahana said about this statement: "This statement of Nagarjuna has contributed to a major and wide- spread asertion regarding the uniqueness of Mahayana-philosophy, namely, the ultimate identity of samsara and nirvana. This assertion may appear to be correct, if we are to ignore all that has been said by Nagarjuna regarding the metaphysical doctrines of identity and difference, especially in the chapters dealing with the tathagata (XXII) and the four truths (XXIV). Those who upheld the view that this statement is a assertion of the identity of samsara and nirvana do not seem to have paused one moment to reflect on the question regarding the nature of the identity they were implying; nor have they attempted to place that conception of identity (if there is one) in the historical context." (The Philosophy of the Middle Way, page 366) --------------------------- It’s been a number of years since I read Kalupahana’s books, but I remember being impressed at that time by his understanding of Nagarjuna -- I think I agreed with most everything he said. It’s painfully true however, that Nagarjuna is terse and thereby ambiguous at times -- and it’s just not very easy to wrap one’s head around what, if anything, Nagarjuna would assert. That is -- what would he propose as a path?? (Based solely on the MMK and 70 Stanzas that is.) This is clearly a potential difficulty for all radically fruitional nondual views. I would suggest that he’d have proposed a path very much in line with what is presented in the Pali Sutta Pitaka -- as such path components are even suggested and recommended in the Maha- prajnaparamita Sutra (if one asserts that Nagarjuna was ‘Mahayana’). It’s been my experience among Western Mahayana groups that not placing adequate emphasis on renunciation leads to very questionable progress for practitioners of such path paradigms. This is why I emigrated to the Pali Sutta Pitaka as the foundation for my own practice, and the basis for my discussions of Dhamma. (This also has the ego-deflating effect of marking me as heterodox whether I’m amongst Mahayanists or Theravadins -- they all seem to want to dismiss me as an outsider when I question their dearly cherished ‘belief-sets.’ But my purpose is not simply to be an annoying contrarian, but to attempt to get to the heart of the matter -- which transcends all ‘belief sets.’ Shouldn’t the true Dhamma be transcendent after all?) Anyway Joop, I’m neither ‘Theravada’ nor ‘Mahayana.’ And this I believe is completely in keeping with the essence of Nagarjuna’s dialectical negation -- and as such is my ultimate tribute to that great mind and truly great Buddhist master. Metta, Geoff 44650 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 5:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Review of messages # 27710/ Correction - Tep buddhistmedi... Dear Nina and Other DSG Memebrs - I am grateful to Nina for her careful reading of my review and the error found. N: > Asavas are defilements arising with the akusala citta. Whereas >anusayas, latent tendencies, do not arise with akusala citta, > they are just accumulated tendencies lying dormant in the citta. > They can be eradicated by lokuttara magga-citta. T: 100 thanks to Nina for the correction. I am sorry for the blunder I have made. The corrected "Tep's Comment" to be inserted in the reivew of message #27710 is as follows: Tep's comment [corrected for anusaya]: ---------------------------------------------------------- The eradication of wrong view through accumulation of right view (abandoned by "seeing") is one of the seven abandonments given in MN 2, Sabbasava Sutta: "There are fermentations to be abandoned by seeing, those to be abandoned by restraining, those to be abandoned by using, those to be abandoned by tolerating, those to be abandoned by avoiding, those to be abandoned by destroying, and those to be abandoned by developing". Please note that abandoning fermentation by "restraining" is the use of indriya-samvara-sila that has been discussed by Sarah. The abandoning of fermentation by "destroying" means wiping out akusala vitakka (the result is samma-sankappa). The abandoning of fermentation by developing is accomplished by developing the seven factors of Awakening. All the seven abandonments are solidly based on yonisomanasikara (wise attention). This sutta is quite good. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002-tb0.html --------------------------------------------- Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > the sutta is very good, but just a remark re the translation. > This is about the abandoning of the asavas (fermentations or intoxicants), > not the latent tendencies. > Asavas are defilements arising with the akusala citta. Whereas anusayas, > latent tendencies, do not arise with akusala citta, they are just > accumulated tendencies lying dormant in the citta. They can be eradicated by > lokuttara magga-citta. > Nina. > > op 21-04-2005 06:38 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > MN 2, Sabbasava Sutta: "There are fermentations to be abandoned > > by seeing, those to be abandoned by restraining, those to be > > abandoned by using, those to be abandoned by tolerating, those to > > be abandoned by avoiding, those to be abandoned by destroying, > > and those to be abandoned by developing". > > > > Please note that abandoning anusayas by "restraining" is the use of > > indriya-samvara-sila that has been discussed by Sarah. 44651 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:06pm Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) philofillet Hi James > James: Actually, in this group there is a real need to discuss her > approach because it has a strong influence on the thinking of several > members. (snip) still she isn't here to clarify any points I might > make. It is like discussing a phantom. We could discuss Abhidhamma. I know you've said that other Abhidhamma teachers allow room for more control, and I know there is some controversy about Kh Sujin's approach in some specific areas, but my interest is more in Abhidhamma (and the other parts of the tiptitaka (sp?) of course rather than Kh Sujin in particular. She's just a friend who has the right conditions for understanding Abhidhamma and an ability to get it across, as is Nina and other folks. I listen to the tapes a lot - there are points I don't get but I almost always let them go. The point is not to understand and agree with everything - the point is to cultivate detachment and eradicate defilments. We don't need to understand everything or agree with everything or decide that everything fits right in order to do that. I think sometimes inconsistencies help rather than hurt - they keep us from being too cozy and complacent in our understanding. For example, I gather from a discussion I listened to recently that there is a difference between Kh Sujin's approach to kamma and that of other teachers. She teaches that only kamma pattha creates vipaka, while other teachers (perhaps the majority?) teach that akusala of all degrees create vipaka. I suppose this should cause me to fret to figue out who is right, but it doesn't. Maybe it shouldm but it doesn't. I think not knowing these things helps us to understanding that knowing is anatta too. I haven't explained that well. But I think if you let go of the points that bug you, you can find aspects of Abhidhamma that will be helfpul. But as I've said before, Abhidhamma isn't of interest to everyone. It depends on this and that whether it will be helpful for us. So there is no need to push it. I'm still hoping James will have a Road to Damascus moment and become a fellow devotee, and I still have this feeling it might happen... :) >> But, and this is very important, don't let her make you second- guess > yourself: If it looks like B.S. and it smells like B.S., then it > probably is B.S., no matter how many people tell you it isn't. Well, it's not so much smelling like bs but it is believing things for which there is not yet any possibility of confirming through our own experience. Take bhavanga cittas, for example. I have talked about this before, but I think that one reason westerners are uisually unable to appreciate Abhidhamma is that we simply must accept teachings as given - there is no way for us to confirm that there are 17 cittas during the rise and fall of every rupa, or whatever, and this bugs people. They take "rely on yourself" to mean that everything must be confirmed through experience. I think there is no way to fully benefit from Abhidhamma (and therefore the Buddha's teaching in general, in my opinion) if we insist on understanding everything before we believe in it. There is a middle way there, of course. If I wasn't experiencing some moments of real understanding of and benefits from Abhidhamma by now, it would be foolish to keep believing in the not-yet-understandable. > > Phil: I think I'm just letting go of stories far momre often, because > of these small reminders from Dhamma friends. > > James: That is great; that is the power of mindfulness. However, > unfortunately, without a more purposeful practice, you probably won't > advance very far. You will be continually slipping back into > suffering and ignorance. Now you are on a high, but it probably won't > last very long. I hear you. I think there is a purposeful practice, but there isn't clinging to results. The purpose is the gradual eradication of defilements. We agree there. I don't practice formal seated meditation, but from the moment I get up until I go to sleep there are many moments of reflection during the day. It is going too far to say my whole day is a kind of meditation, maybe, but I will - my whole day is a kind of meditation! Actually, I am still failing to concentrate on my writeng because of this all consuming interest in Dhamma. If it's a high, it sure is a powerful drug because it has been going on since I first started reading Abhidhamma in Daily Life that night, and that's about ...hmmm 14 months ago I guess. But that's just a wink of an eye, of course. > > Phil: I know the Buddha told people to be self-reliant, but if he knew > Westerners were going to be in his audience he might have worded it > differently! > > James: This is pure conjecture which isn't very helpful. You're right. > Trust the Buddha's words! The Buddhadhamma is our refuge. But I still feel that taking suttas too literally will lead to misunderstanding. Why do I think so? Let me answer later, when we get to the Satipatthana Sutta. It will be more conjecture, probably. I'll continue later, James. Thanks for lending an ear. Could I ask you to hold your response until my next post? Thanks. Metta, Phil 44652 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:35pm Subject: Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results/ Striving buddhistmedi... Dear Nina (Phil, Kel, Sarah, Ken O and interested DSG members) - I think there is only one point remaining for further discussion, but it is a tough one to get across! Perhaps, one day one of us may find a more effective way to resolve this communication problem. T: By not thinking about the end result, how can there be a review of > progress? Without reviewing of progress, how can there be > right effort to improve the practice? ------------- N: If we are only concerned with this moment now, developing understanding of this moment, there is no thinking of progress. This is better, thinking is only thinking. We should not think of the past, and the future has not come yet, there is only the present moment. T: Whenever I'm talking about "progress reviewing", it means the feedback evaluation to be done periodically after meditation (during the meditation there is no thinking of progress) so that we know where we are on the path of practice. Therefore, such progress reviewing would not interfere with the "present moment" of the meditation here & now-- more like the off-line activities at a computer terminal are separate from the on-line activities . N: < T: This way we will be reducing lobha, dosa and moha every day while we are advancing more rapidly toward the goal!> I think that wrong view has to be abandoned first. Lobha, dosa and moha have to be realized as non-self, otherwise they cannot be reduced. I think the dhamma learning process cannot be rapid. We have deeply rooted latent tendencies. T: I can't understand why such progress review has to be that bad. If it is that bad, why do Ariyas review their path and fruition, according to the Visuddhimagga? I know I am not an Ariya, but the same procedure is useful regardless. " After re-entry into life continuum, adverting, etc., arise again in the same way for the purpose of reviewing fruition, and so on. With the arising of these he reviews the path, he reviews the fruition, he reviews the defilements abandoned, he reviews the defilements still remaining, and he reviews nibbana." VM XXII, 19 (page 699). "He reviews the path in this way, 'So this is the path I have come by'. Next he reviews the fruition after that in this way, 'This is the blessing I have obtained. Next he reviews the defilements that have been abandoned. ... ..." VM XXII, 20. Thank you for your patience, Nina. Respectfully and sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > I just answer this part of your message. > op 19-04-2005 08:20 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > 44653 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:38pm Subject: Re: conditions for right awareness. philofillet Hi Tep and all > Phil always has keen Dhamma observations. You're too kind. I've been appreciating the dilegent, organized way in which you post. Unfortunately, since I haven't set up our printer yet and reading from this monitor hurts my weak eyes, I haven't been following your threads thoroughly. I look forward to printing them out so I can read them. (in passing, Sarah, that goes for your "musings" as well.) > > Phil: In any case, I have been aware of not wanting to lean too cozily > on "being mindful of present realities" > Tep: It is way beyond me too. Phil: It is something we aim for, without clinging to expectations about if and when it will happen. For now, the intellectual understanding is very helpful. And who knows - there may be moments of something. Our understanding isn't developed enough to know just what is going on. But we are pointed by our faith in the Buddha's teaching in the right direction. The intellectual understanding is good > for intellectual people, but it does not have strength (bala); so it is like a > drop of water falling onto a hot pan -- it is not enough to cool down the > pan. It will cool the pan if many drops are applied repeatedly. Now, if > the hot pan is constantly heated (it is kept on fire) there is no way the > pan may be cooled at all. The heat here is analogous to the > defilements, and to be "cooled" is analogous to "liberating". That's a good analogy, Tep. I sometimes think that people who believe in intentionally applying mindfulness as constantly as possible can come to believe that they have extinguished the fire (or made real progress in extinguishing it) when in fact the fire is just lying low, waiting for the right moment and right conditions to burst up. > > Khun Sujin said: > > > > We read in order to understand this moment. > > We listen in order to understand this moment. > > We consider in order to understand this moment. > > When one is aware and there is no progress, > one can know why: there is not enough understanding > > of the details of the Dhamma. > > Tep: Beautifully said! Does she also see the importance of > occasionally stepping away from the present-moment understanding > in order to review the whole process of consciousness so far, and > assess the accomplishment with respect to what remains to be done? This is an interesting point. I have been meaning to ask about anusayas (accumulations) and whether we can know them or not. This is one of the things I get mixed signals from in Kh Sujin and Nina's teahcing. There are times Kh Sujin says that we shouldn't even expect to figure out if a citta that has fallen away is kusala or akusala, and other times when I read that knowing our anusayas is very important. If we don't really know whether a citta was kusala or akusala, if we can't know rupa from nama yet, how on earth can we know our anusayas? I will just write that now and ask it in a separate thread at some point. BTW, as I said in a post to James, these "mixed signals" are not a point of concern for me. They are helpful, actually. I like not getting settled into easy pseudo- understanding. I think there are suttas which point at stepping back and assessing where we are at. The one about finding a blemish, or the one about asking ourselves if there is something unabandoned that would send us to a bad destination if we were to die tonight, for example. Sometimes I think those are suttas that can only be of benefit to people of advanced insight, but I am not sure about that, by any means. > " After re-entry into life continuum, adverting, etc., arise again in the > same way for the purpose of reviewing fruition, and so on. With the > arising of these he reviews the path, he reviews the fruition, he rviews > the defilements abandoned, he reviews the defilements still remaining, > and he reviews nibbana." VM XXII, 19 (page 699). > > Reviewing and assessment of progress is necessary to move from > one ariya level to the next one higher. So it seems reasonable that it > should be useful for non-ariya puggalas as well? See above. I'm just not sure about that. Also worth noting that English translations really can be misleading. We think "review" is something that can be done easily, because of our conventional understanding of that word, but what did the Buddha really mean by "review." Perhaps you can gain a deeper understanding through the Thai, perhaps not, or perhaps you have Pali. I think of the sutta in which Bhikkhu Bodhi uses "revulsion" for the bhikkhus important progress point (revusion>dispassion>liberation, I think, re the khandas etc.) but from his note we learn that the revulsion is something much more refined and beyond-us-for-now than we would think from a first reading. Metta, Phil 44654 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:57pm Subject: Re: conditions for right awareness. buddhistmedi... Hi Phil - I truly appreciate your careful and thoughtful writing about those tough points that are beyond our ability to give definite answers. Yet, you have tried. So I thank you very much. Phil: I sometimes think that people who > believe in intentionally applying mindfulness as constantly as > possible can come to believe that they have extinguished the fire > (or made real progress in extinguishing it) when in fact the fire is > just lying low, waiting for the right moment and right conditions to > burst up. > Tep: Yes, anusayas can be very tricky. Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Tep and all > > > Phil always has keen Dhamma observations. > 44655 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:35pm Subject: How can we know our anusayas (accumulations)? philofillet Hello Nina, and all I brought up this point in a post to Tep, and it is important, so I should ask it properly. I've been throwing out a lot of questions but I'm going back to work today, so will (probably) quiet down! Phil: (from other thread) This is an interesting point. I have been meaning to ask about anusayas (accumulations) and whether we can know them or not. This is one of the things I get mixed signals from in Kh Sujin and Nina's teahcing. There are times Kh Sujin says that we shouldn't even expect to figure out if a citta that has fallen away is kusala or akusala, and other times when I read that knowing our anusayas is very important. If we don't really know whether a citta was kusala or akusala, if we can't know rupa from nama yet, how on earth can we know our anusayas? I will just write that now and ask it in a separate thread at some point. Phil (con't) Nina, in Lodewijk's speech, which I really enjoy, he emphasizes knowing anusayas, and says that this is "basic." I wonder if by basic he means fundamental and important or "basic" as in fairly easy to do. Of course it most be the former. Nothing of importance is easy to do in Dhamma. Yesterday I heard Kh Sujin say "we cannot know the anusayas of others" implying that we can know our own. And yet, isn't it all thinking and speculation for us now when we don't even properly know nama from rupa? Is knowing our anusayas the same as tht sutta in which the Buddha encourages us to consider if there is something that has not been abandoned which will lead to a bad destination if we were to die tonight? Thanks in advance for any feedback, Nina and all, and thanks Nina for your feedback to my other two questions. Metta, Phil 44656 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 8:23pm Subject: [dsg] Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) sukinderpal Hi Sarah, James and all (*Chris), > Why not address your points/queeries to her here and Sukin or Betty can > read them out to here when they meet (usually weekly), record her > comments/answers (I believe Sukin has a recorder) and transcribe back (or > summarise if that's a problem) for you and the rest of us to see? You > could send a few each week. Brief and polite would probably be more likely > to elicit responses:-). Of course, the turn around time would be a little > slow, but it is for some of our replies anyway. I will be happy to do what I can, though I don't have a recorder and never take notes. I can however ask Betty and Matt R. ;-) to help. I agree with James about the limitations of any effectiveness in communication. Even though I had thought that I would play the devil's advocate, I also can see that I can't get away from my own opinions and the tendency to jump in and express them. Still I think it would be interesting, so this offer is open to all interested. We will see what happens. In any case it will still be Dhamma and there would still be good discussions with others on the list, don't you think? > p.s [Sukin, perhaps you could confirm you'd be happy to help with this. We > might get to see a little more of your posts at the same time:-)). My time for the computer is now less than before. An occasional post is fine, but the fear is in being involved in ongoing threads, esp. since I do tend to be long winded. :-( * Btw, Bundit, who recently joined DSG contacted me on the phone. We then met briefly at the foundation last Saturday. Apparently he, his sister and some friends have been listening to K. Sujin for sometime. However he can come to the foundation on Saturdays only now when Schools are closed, (he is still studying and is quite young). Metta, Sukinder 44657 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:39pm Subject: Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Ken O, Htoo, Robert K, Ven Dhammanando, Chris, Azita & All, > > (This series of `Musings?Eare based on recent discussions in Bangkok with > A.Sujin) > > Various scenarios were mentioned such as selling or > purchasing alcohol, renting a premise to those engaged in questionable > practices, assisting in an operating theatre when abortions are performed > and so on. As both the verse above and the commentaries to the Va.nijjaa > Sutta indicate (as just quoted*), it is the `evil intention?Ethat is > indicative of the wrong livelihood, not necessarily the actions observed. > > For example, the trading in flesh which is avoided by an upasaka ("o> If we sell alcohol or pets in a store, rent out the premises or assist a > surgeon in the case above, usually there's no intention to make anyone > intoxicated, to take life or to encourage any illegal or disreputable > practices in the rented out premise. We don't know the intentions or > accumulations of the customers. > >====================== Dear Sarah, Selling alcohol seems to be involved with wrong liveihood to me, although I can see if someone was a cashier in a supermarket where alcohol was only a minor product line that it might be similar to the example from the Dhammapada. As for being a nurse assisting a doctor in abortion operations, I think this must be akusala. The woman in the sutta gave her husband arrows it is true. But she wasn't passing him arrows while he was actually shooting the animals. Same with your example about the bomber, how can it not be not akusala cetana to release a bomb. It is true you can't be sure anyone was killed but if they were then their is akusala kammapatha. The Vinaya is very good on details when monks wondered if the had done wrong. Once a monk saw a man who was going to be executed and had pity on him. So he went to the executioner (an axeman) and asked him to make it fast so there would be minimal pain. The executioner took extra care to make his swing true and strong and killed the man that little bit fatser than usual. The monk commited parajika - just for those words- and was expelled from the order. We can't escape kamma merely by thinking we don't really support a doctors killing - not while we are directly assisting him. RobertK 44658 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 11:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 – Livelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= kenhowardau Dear Nina (and Suan), ---------------------------- N: > Sarah, your example of the hunter's wife is in the sutta. It is a specific case. These people were ripe to become sotapannas. But the other examples, I have doubts about. We would like to help others not to get into difficult situations, so I think I would avoid these things. The same with the bomb, I really doubt this. But of course everybody has to judge himself what he will do. All such situations seem rather speculative. ----------------- Apart from your point about it being "speculative," I don't understand the reasons for your concern. I assume it was for similar reasons that Suan once cautioned me against taking "personlessness" too far. I am curious to know what that means to an Abhidhammika, and I wish Suan had taken the opportunity (when I asked him) to expand on his warning. Are you concerned that weak-minded people are going to use anatta as an excuse to do evil? Is it possible that someone might kill or steal (etc.) because they got the impression from DSG that it was OK to do so? That might be a valid concern, I don't know, but it is also important to understand anatta as deeply as we can. If the thought occurs, "Anatta negates akusala kamma," then we should simply think again. :-) If we are of the opinion that anatta can be taken too far - that sometimes it is wrong to realise there are only dhammas (no controlling self) - then, it seems to me, panna will be reluctant (or hesitant) to take the step from pariyatti to patipatti. I am assuming you would agree with that, so I am still curious to know where your reservations fit in with the Abhidhamma. Ken H 44659 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 1:19am Subject: Re: conditions for right awareness. buddhatrue Hi Phil, I won't respond to your other post until later, as requested, but you wrote something in this post to Tep which is important. You wrote: Phil: I sometimes think that people who believe in intentionally applying mindfulness as constantly as possible can come to believe that they have extinguished the fire (or made real progress in extinguishing it) when in fact the fire is just lying low, waiting for the right moment and right conditions to burst up. James: The Buddha taught that people should CONSTANTLY practice mindfulness in order to win liberation from samsara. There is no other way! To not practice mindfulness means to be unaware of one's thoughts and actions, to act impulsively without regard for the consequences- to allow the mind to be consumed by greed, hatred, and ignorance. These things are not acceptable for even a moment. Mindfulness isn't so much a specific practice as it is an attitude: the attitude that one must, and can, watch guard over thoughts and actions. As the Buddha said in the Dhammapada: The bhikkhu liking heedfulness Seeing fear in heedlessness Advances as a conflagration Burning fetters great and small How effective the mindfulness is on eliminating the fetters depends on how strongly and diligently it is applied. If there are "small fires still burning" as you describe them, then the mindfulness hasn't been complete or strong enough (for example: the person doesn't allow thoughts to chase after some impulses, but somehow allows others). It is not easy to be mindful to this extent as a householder without a wise teacher, but I wouldn't say it is impossible. Metta, James Ps. As a suggestion, during your free moments, rather than reading dhamma reminders in your notebook, why don't you contemplate the 32 parts of the body as detailed in the Satipatthana Sutta? I bet you would find a marked improvement in the strength of your mindfulness. 44660 From: "Lisa" Date: Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:37pm Subject: Asankhata foamflowers Asankhata? The Unconditioned (Nibbana)Beyond conceptual thought? The subsiding of suffering--dukkhavupasama--but not total "unbinding." Asankhata-dhatu=nibbana. This is a new word for me "Asankhata" and I only have a few references in my notes. Yavata: (page 555) ete sattha [read settha] lokasmin yad idam arahanto "as far as the abodes of beings, as far as heaven, these are the highest, these are the best, I mean the Arahants." S iii.84. yavata dhamma sankhata va asankhata va virago... aggam akkhayati, yad--idan mada--nimmadano... A ii.34=It 88; "of all the things definite or indefinite: passionlessness deserves the highest praise, I mean the disintoxication of pride etc." The 2. Sankhata: (page 664) Vin ii.284; It 37, 88; J ii.38; Nett 14; Dhs 1085; DhsA 47. As nt. that which is produced from a cause, i. e. the sankharas S i.112; A i.83, 152; Nett 22. asankhata not put together, not proceeding from a cause Dhs 983 (so read for sankhata), 1086; Ep. of nibbana "the Unconditioned" (& therefore unproductive of further life) A i.152; S iv.359 sq.; Kvu 317 sq.; Pv All three dimensions of the Abhidhamma -- the philosophical, the psychological, and the ethical -- derive their final justification from the cornerstone of the Buddha's teaching, the program of liberation announced by the Four Noble Truths. The ontological survey of dhammas stems from the Buddha's injunction that the noble truth of suffering, identified with the world of conditioned phenomena as a whole, must be fully understood (pariññeyya). The prominence of mental defilements and requisites of enlightenment in its schemes of categories, indicative of its psychological and ethical concerns, connects the Abhidhamma to the second and fourth noble truths, the origin of suffering and the way leading to its end. And the entire taxonomy of dhammas elaborated by the system reaches its consummation in the "unconditioned element" (asankhata dhatu), which is Nibbana, the third noble truth, that of the cessation of suffering. http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/abhiman.html Nina and Sarah, I understand now what this course of analysis is for and I will promise to follow the rules here as best I can with my limited abilities. With Metta, Lisa 44661 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 – Livelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: Dear Nina (and Suan), ---------------------------- N: > Sarah, your example of the hunter's wife is in the sutta. It is a specific case.These people were ripe to become sotapannas. But the other examples, I have doubts about. We would like to help others not to get into difficult situations, so I think I would avoid these things. The same with the bomb, I really doubt this. But of course everybody has to judge himself what he will do. All such situations seem rather speculative. ----------------- Ken H: Apart from your point about it being "speculative," I don't understand the reasons for your concern. I assume it was for similar reasons that Suan once cautioned me against taking "personlessness" too far. I am curious to know what that means to an Abhidhammika, and I wish Suan had taken the opportunity (when I asked him) to expand on his warning. Are you concerned that weak-minded people are going to use anatta as an excuse to do evil? ... snip ... snip ...where your reservations fit in with the Abhidhamma. Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ken H, Nina and All, May I butt in between your conversation. Just to tell a story. I do not think this is samphappalaapa or non- sense-tale-bearing. There was a monastry and there were many bhikkhus doing pariyatti and patipatti and they were advanced. They had a lay assistant. As he always heard Dhamma from bhikkhus he knew almost everything. I did know that killing is not good deed. One day, he want to eat frog but he did not want to kill. There was a boiling water pot over the hand-made fire-place. He put a flat stick across the pot. He put some frogs on a side of the stick. He said, 'O! My dear frogs. May you all be able to safely cross this hot boiling water pot.' 'He recited, 'Sabbe satta sukhiattaanam pariharantu' 'May all beings be healthy and wealthy'. Some fron dropped in the pot. He developed 'karuna' and said, 'May you be free from suffering'. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Exceptions are almost always for those who are well-perfected. Once a professional killer appointed by a king was forced to retire as he could not kill the prisoned people with a single cut with axe. As he retired, he had chances to do kusala. He invited a bhikkhu (Venerable Moggallana ) and offered food at home. When Dhamma was preached, he could not listen fully. Because he remembered many of his killing prisoned evil people. Venerable knew that he could not take up the message. So asked what the retired killer was thinking while preaching Dhamma. Just said he killed thousands of people. Venerable asked, 'Did you kill because of your will or someone else?' The killer was releived and answered 'the king'. And he was then able to listen Dhamma and at the end of preaching Dhamma, he became a sotapanna. 44662 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:07am Subject: Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > Dear Ken O, Htoo, Robert K, Ven Dhammanando, Chris, Azita & All, Dear Sarah, Selling alcohol seems to be involved with wrong liveihood to me, > although I can see if someone was a cashier in a supermarket where > alcohol was only a minor product line that it might be similar to > the example from the Dhammapada. > As for being a nurse assisting a doctor in abortion operations, I > think this must be akusala. The woman in the sutta gave her husband > arrows it is true. But she wasn't passing him arrows while he was > actually shooting the animals. Same with your example about the > bomber, how can it not be not akusala cetana to release a bomb. It > is true you can't be sure anyone was killed but if they were then > their is akusala kammapatha. > The Vinaya is very good on details when monks wondered if the had > done wrong. Once a monk saw a man who was going to be executed and > had pity on him. So he went to the executioner (an axeman) and asked > him to make it fast so there would be minimal pain. The executioner > took extra care to make his swing true and strong and killed the man > that little bit fatser than usual. The monk commited parajika - just > for those words- and was expelled from the order. > We can't escape kamma merely by thinking we don't really support a > doctors killing - not while we are directly assisting him. RobertK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Robert K, Sarah and All, Vinayas are many and they are described in detail. Even in the presence of The Buddha, there were small-battles between bhikkhus because of vinayas. The Buddha was a judge. Once the battle was not settled down and even The Buddha left both parties for 3 months. The Buddha went to a forest and lived for 3 months in seclusion without any human bhikkhu assistant while an elephant approached The Buddha and the elephant assisted The Buddha. After 3 months, disciples became to realize that they were left by The Buddha and both parties met each other and tried to settle down the problems and they followed The Buddha. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I was still considering 'why must akusala citta not have akusala kamma if it is not kamma patha'. 44663 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 – Livelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= sarahprocter... [I haven’t had an internet connection all day, so I wrote this off-line earlier, before reading the others in the thread]. Dear Nina, (KenO, Azita & All) --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > your example of the hunter's wife is in the sutta. It is a specific > case. > These people were ripe to become sotapannas. But the other examples, I > have > doubts about. > We would like to help others not to get into difficult situations, so I > think I would avoid these things. The same with the bomb, I really doubt > this. > But of course averybody has to judge himself what he will do. All such > situations seem rather speculative. .... S: Thanks for your feedback. As I mentioned, I expect all the Musings series to be controversial. For my part these days, I can’t get enough ‘cold showers’ or ‘bitter medicine’. As Ken H often says, I don’t think we can be too extreme when it comes to anatta. I was stressing that it is the intention that counts. Yes, ‘the situations seem speculative’ and this was exactly the point of my post – we draw speculative conclusions about this or that situation, completely forgetting about the cittas involved. We think we would avoid this or that occasion, but as we know, conditions rule and as I said, purification of sila depends on understanding, not on reciting precepts and so on. The bomb example which I’d mentioned before was from the earlier trip to India that you and Jon were on. When I listened to the recording, I was so impressed and copied down the words which I summarised. We’re used to seeing world perspectives from social and political angles and it takes courage to really be confident that ‘life exists in a moment’ and that the same acts can be performed with different kusala and akusala cittas, rather than thinking all the time about the situation. The other examples were Ken O’s which I raised this time (eg selling alcohol in a store) and Vince’s (renting the premise and the questionable activities etc). K.Sujin’s response to these and any others was ‘no problem’. ‘As long as it’s not illegal’. And then she added comments about how our intention is not for someone to be intoxicated and so on and we don’t know what the customers intend when they buy the goods or rent the premises. ‘It’s not your intention’, K.Sujin stressed. (You & Lodewijk may wish to discuss this topic with her further in India.) Azita mentioned that as a nurse in her hospital, sometimes she is assigned to work in the operating theatre when abortions are performed. Again, she has no intention to harm of course. She can add more perhaps. It’s like the hunter’s wife who is instructed to assist her husband, I think. You mentioned that ‘these people were ripe to become sotapannas’, but the wife was already a sotapanna and according to the story, fell in love with the hunter and willingly followed his instructions. This is why K.Sujin refers to this story. The wife never had any intentions to kill or harm, unlike her husband and sons who were ready to kill even the Buddha. It’s like if you purchase the wine for Lodewijk or even pour out his glass of wine at his request, you have no intention for him to become intoxicated and you’re not intending to encourage him to drink more either. So when there’s no harmful intention, there’s no breach of sila. The point always comes back to the understanding of namas and rupas now rather than judging situations and circumstances. When we set limits or think there cannot be understanding at this or that time and if we have doubs about the usefulness of sati right now of realities, as we just read in ‘Cetasikas’, there cannot be right effort then. And as you wrote so clearly in a post just now: ‘We should not think of the past, and the future has not come yet, there is only the present moment.....The practice is done with panna, and this is accompanied by right effort already....’ Also, as you quoted we are always absorbed in long, long stories, but really they are nothing at all. .’ We read (listen etc) to understand this moment...’. And so in these examples too, when we think so much about different situations, we’re just living in the world of our thinking without any awareness of seeing and so on. It is such awareness that lets go of the stories and clinging to particular circumstances. As Ken O put it so succinctly, ‘When there is understanding in the present moment, there will be restraint from all kinds of akusala.’ Metta, Sarah p.s All, there's a typo of course in the subject heading - it should read 'Hunter'. ====== 44664 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:26am Subject: Dhamma Thread (335) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Thread is now going on with kamma. There are 4 sets of 4 kammas or catu-catukka kamma. When we talk on kamma, there are many many points to discuss. As the subject is a deeper one, it is not that easy to explore all about kamma. Only The Buddha knows all about kamma. When in a forest, The Buddha picked up a handful of fallen leaves and said to his disciple monks that what He preached was like a fist-ful of fallen leaves in His hand, while what He knew was like all the leaves in the whole forest. While a handful of Dhamma does help to reach nibbana, we all do not need to bother with understanding of everything, which is completely impossible. There are 4 types of kamma. These types are just for classification and this depends on what these kamma do. Kamma do generate their results at a suitable time when there are all the conditions that fulfil the necessary things. Depending on what these kamma give rise as their effect there are 4 kinds of kamma. These 4 kamma are 1. janaka ( regenerative kamma, or reproductive kamma ) 2. upatthambhaka ( supportive kamma, or reinforcing kamma ) 3. upapiilaka ( weakening kamma, or diminishing kamma ) 4. upaghataka ( cutting kamma, or destructive kamma ) May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44665 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= sarahprocter... Dear RobertK, Azita & All Thanks for your well - considered comments too. When I mentioned KenO’s example, K.Sujin didn’t ask whether alcohol would be a minor or major product, she just stressed that it was no problem if there was no intention to harm. For the nurse, I’ll leave this to Azita to add more if she wishes. I didn’t say she was passing the instruments for the operation, and kept this open, just as in the story about the hunter’s wife. But even if she were at the doctor’s orders, I’m not sure there’d need to be any intention to kill at such times. We can only speculate, I think. Cittas are very intricate – one may be day-dreaming or developing awareness then and there. For the bomber, if there is no intention to kill, how can it be akusala kamma patha? As I mentioned, ‘there may not be any intention to kill people, but one may just have been given the order’. Thanks for the Vinaya story. Presumably there was a) a definite intention to aid/encourage the executioner to bring about death and b) it was a definite breach of the Vinaya rules. (Do you have a reference btw?). From the Patimokkha: 'If any bhikkhu should *intentionally* deprive a living being of life, there is an offence entailing expiation.' As background to this rule, there is the story of the bhikkhu who shot crows and admitted it was intentional to kill them. 'Intentionally' is defined as 'knowingly, consciously, deliberately'. "There is no offence if it is unintentional; if he is not thinking; if he does not know; *if he is not meaning death*; if he is mad, if he is the first wrong-doer." Suttabibhanga, Expiation (Paacittiya 61). Metta, Sarah ========== 44666 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 0:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 Â?ELivelihood & Assis ting the Hunte r?= upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 4/22/05 6:33:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > For the bomber, if there is no intention to kill, how can it be akusala > kamma patha? As I mentioned, ‘there may not be any intention to kill > people, but one may just have been given the order’. > ======================= Sarah, conventional matters are generally mixed. Often, the only conventional choices we are willing to make involve some akusala intention; and in those cases, at the very least we should not attempt to fool ourselves into believing that matters are different from how they actually are. If one goes on a bombing run into an area where there are sentient beings, unless one has no mind, one will certainly know that there is a likelihood of beings being wounded or killed by one's actions, and knowingly going ahead and making the run anyway is akusala kamma. Pretending that is not so only compounds the matter by purposeful self-delusion. If a large rat is in one's home, and one is afraid for one's children or spouse or even oneself, and out of that fear puts out poison or a killing trap and destroys the rodent, there has been some kusala intention to protect one's family and oneself, but there has certainly also been akusala intention as well, and it has been acted upon. The matter is mixed, but to pretend that "nothing wrong" was done is to delude oneself. Harmless trapping and removal was an alternative. (Had it not been an alternative, STILL there would have been a mix of "bad" aliong with the "good", and the "bad" may have been unavoidable if the "good" needed to be achieved, but, still, the akusala aspect is still akusala and should be recognized as such. It so happens that for the last week or so, two large raccoons have set up residence in a crease of the large tree on our front lawn. Many people in the neighborhood are afraid for their small children and pets, and are concerned about their trash cans etc. Nobody has offered to help out, but some have loudly complained to us - as if we invited the raccoons (!). In fact, at times I've seen them sleeping in trees on other properties as well, but they are mostly at our place. So, to maintain peace in the neighborhood, I arranged for a trapper to set a trap and remove the raccoons. It is costing me $395 for this to be done, and no one else has offered to contribute. I agreed to have this done only under the strict agreement by the trapper that the raccoons be harmlessly trapped and then released in the wild, with no harm coming to them. There would be a far cheaper approach that I could have taken - using a killing trap or putting out poisoned food. I refused to do that and refused to hire someone to do that. Now, had I done that, the wily raccoons, who so far have evinced no interest in the food-laden trap, might well have not been killed, just as, conceivably, no one might die as the result of a bombing run. So, would the poison or killing trap actions be okay then? Clearly not. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./      (From the Diamond Sutra) 44667 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:36am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 174 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (e) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== There will be less doubt and more confidence if we listen to the Dhamma as it is explained by the right person, if we read the scriptures, if we consider what we learnt and test the meaning of it ourselves. We can prove the truth of what we learnt by the application of the Dhamma in daily life. The above-quoted sutta also mentions five “bondages of the heart” which hinder the development of good qualities: * "… Herein a monk is not dispassionate in things sensual; desire, affections, thirsting, distress and craving have not gone from him… Again in body a monk is not dispassionate; he is not dispassionate in the matter of material shapes; having eaten his bellyful he lives given to the pleasure of lying down on back or side, a prey to torpor; or he leads the brahma-life with a view to join some order of devas, with the thought: By virtue of this way of life or practice or austerity or brahma-life I shall become some deva or other. Whatsoever monk …has such an object in view, his mind inclines not to exertion, to application, to perseverance and striving…" * We are infatuated by all the pleasant things of life. At such moments we forget to develop satipaììhåna. We read in the same sutta that in the monk who has abandoned the mental obstructions and the “bondages of the heart”, “growth, not decline, in good states may be looked for.” However, we should realize that not all obstructions can be overcome at once. Even the sotåpanna who has eradicated doubt and who has an unshakable confidence in the Triple Gem is still attached to sense-pleasures. But he has no wrong view, he does not take attachment or any other reality for self. He has developed right understanding of all realities, also of akusala dhammas, by being aware of them when they appear. The sotåpanna cannot deviate from the eightfold Path anymore. Since he has realized the truth that all conditioned realities are impermanent and dukkha, his urgency to be freed from dukkha does not stem from theoretical understanding of the truth of dukkha, but from the direct realization of the truth of dukkha. He has a true sense of urgency which makes him persevere with the development of the eightfold Path. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44668 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results/ Striving nilovg Dear Tep, op 22-04-2005 03:35 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > Whenever I'm talking about "progress reviewing", it means the > feedback evaluation to be done periodically after meditation (during > the meditation there is no thinking of progress) so that we know where > we are on the path of practice. Therefore, such progress reviewing > would not interfere with the "present moment" of the meditation here & > now-- N: Perhaps the problem lies here: after meditation and before meditation. How do we see meditation is the question. Is it not momentary, with the citta arising and passing away? The reviewing after enlightenment is another matter. That always occurs. One has to know what has been realized, nibbaana, and which defielements have been eradicated. There were discussions before about the latter. Sarah explained something about this. However, nobody can prevent citta from thinking: how much progress has been made. Is this thinking kusala or akusala? That is what one has to find out. I think it is extremely difficult to measure progress and it seems to enhance lobha, I think. You also wrote about the right efforts and understandably, people wonder how to keep balance: no over-exertion, no laziness. Tatramajjhattataa performs its function. It keeps the balance. It accompanies each kusala citta. This morning I started to listen to a new MP3 on satipatthana and I like to share little bits at a time. Kh Sujin said very inspiring things about right effort (khwaamphian), about ardour. She explains from the beginning, anapanasati, so this would fit into our thread. Jaran also made some transscripts of these talks before (in U.P.). Besides, as you know, there is the whole study we did with Larry, and some things could be taken out from U.P. to help us with this thread on satipatthana. The subject is always fresh anyway. Always things to learn fortunately! As you said, Phil always has keen Dhamma observations. Let us ask him to give some input to us on characteristics. The first stage of insight is so important. Phil always gives me good thoughts. Nina. 44669 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anusayas. nilovg Hi Phil, op 22-04-2005 03:38 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > I have been meaning to ask about > anusayas (accumulations) and whether we can know them or not. -------------- N: We know *that* we have them, because they condition the arising of akusala cittas. We have all of them! ----------- Ph: This is one of the things I get mixed signals from in Kh Sujin and Nina's > teaching. ------------ N: Pardon, I do not teach. -------------- Ph: There are times Kh Sujin says that we shouldn't even > expect to figure out if a citta that has fallen away is kusala or > akusala, and other times when I read that knowing our anusayas is > very important. -------------- N: Knowing that we have anusayas is important, it shows us conditions for akusala citta. Anusayas are so stubborn, deeply rooted. That is why we make the same mistakes again and again, as Lodewijk says. ---------------- Ph: If we don't really know whether a citta was kusala > or akusala, if we can't know rupa from nama yet, how on earth can we > know our anusayas? -------------- N: Right, we notice kusala citta and akusala citta in a coarse way, but we do not know them yet as pure naama, we take them for self. However, we can begin to develop more understanding of them when they occur. Anusayas do not arise, they are latent, lying dormant. But they are strong conditioning factors. Even intellectual understanding of this helps to see, though not yet with insight, that akusala is anatta. That there is no owner of realities, no possessor. ------------ Ph: In a second post:Is knowing our anusayas the same as the sutta in which the Buddha encourages us to consider if there is something that has not been abandoned which will lead to a bad destination if we were to die tonight? ---------- N: The Buddha wanted to cause people to have a sense of urgency here. We should not be neglectful but develop the way leading to the end of defilements. Nina. 44670 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assis ting the Hunte r?= nilovg Hi Howard, This is a good example of equanimity also in the case of siila. We observe siila, even when it means some sacrifice or discomfort. Then there is mental balance, equanimity. As to siila I do not only mean abstaining, for just a moment, but also helping through body and speech. You helped and sacrificed money so that the raccoons are not hurt. I appreciate that. Chirstine had a rat in her house before and was thinking about good ways to resolve the problem. Nina. op 22-04-2005 13:18 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > in > those cases, at the very least we should not attempt to fool ourselves into > believing that matters are different from how they actually are. 44671 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:34am Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assis ting the Hunte r?= sarahprocter... Hi Howard, (Geoff & All), --- upasaka@... wrote: > Sarah, conventional matters are generally mixed. Often, the only > conventional choices we are willing to make involve some akusala > intention; and in > those cases, at the very least we should not attempt to fool ourselves > into > believing that matters are different from how they actually are. ... S: I agree with this and you've put it well, Howard. It's true that we fool ourselves all the time and it's important to realise this. All those cheating dhammas again....Thanks for the reminders. You've made some good points and I really liked your account of the raccoons and your kindness in restoring neighbourhood harmony without any harm for the animnals, even at considerable cost. I appreciate this a lot. I don't have time to write more now, but I'm delighted you've joined in the discussion as I've been missing your posts and viewpoints. I hope others also contribute and follow up further on your comments or others any of us have made. Metta, Sarah p.s Geoff, many thanks for your response -I look f/w to discussing more with you, but probably not til next week. Lisa and others too. ======== 44672 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 Â?ELivelihood & Assis ting the Hunte r?= upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 4/22/05 9:38:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > don't have time to write more now, but I'm delighted you've joined in > the discussion as I've been missing your posts and viewpoints. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Sarah. :-) -------------------------------------- I hope> > others also contribute and follow up further on your comments or others > any of us have made. > ====================== I've been having some computer problems recently, Sarah and have wanted to cut down on list participation anyway with more time spent on (what I call ;-) "practice". Next week we'll be on vacation. We're taking our older son's family (including our granddaughter), who live in Texas, and my younger son & his girlfriend, who live near us, on a trip to Disney World in Florida to celebrate my 65th birthday. It will be a wonderful opportunity to spend a lot of time tog ether. I will be completely incommunicado from Sunday through Friday. BTW, since I will be unable to send my wishes later on, I'll wish Jon right now a very happy birthday (the day after mine) and you also (five days after that)!! I hope you both celebrate well! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44673 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assis ting the Hunte r?= upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/22/05 9:34:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > You helped and sacrificed money so that the > raccoons are not hurt. > I appreciate that. > ===================== Thanks for the kind words! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44674 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:13am Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assis ting the Hunte r?= jonoabb Hi Howard --- upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Sarah - ... > BTW, since > I will be unable to send my wishes later on, I'll wish Jon right now a > very happy birthday (the day after mine) and you also (five days after > that)!! I hope you both celebrate well! > > With metta, > Howard Many thanks. It's my 60th (making me officially an 'oldie'). And all the best to you for your birthday. Jon PS I too have been having computer problems lately. My apologies to you and others for some unanswered posts (I'm borrowing Sarah's computer for this). 44675 From: nina Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:21am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 153 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV, 153. Intro: Equanimity, tatramajjhattataa, is a sobhana cetasika that accompanies each sobhana citta. It is also denoted as upekkhaa, but it should not be confused with the kind of upekkhaa that is indifferent feeling. Tatramajjhattataa is sa.khaarakkhandha, the aggregate of formations, whereas indifferent feeling is vedanaakkhandha. ***** Text Vis. : (xxxi) 'Specific neutrality' (tatra-majjhattataa--lit. 'neutrality in regard thereto') is neutrality (majjhattataa) in regard to those states [of consciousness and consciousness-concomitants arisen in association with it]. It has the characteristic of conveying consciousness and consciousness-concomitants evenly. -------------- N: The Tiika explains that it causes the associated dhammas to proceed in a balanced way, each according to their own functions. It compares equanimity to a king who holds court and sits silently, causing diligent people to perform their own functions in the proceedings of justice. ----------------- Text Vis.: Its function is to prevent deficiency and excess. --------------------- N: The Tiika explains that it conditions the proceeding (of associated dhammas) without sluggishness and without agitation, and thus it inhibits deficiency and excess. --------------------- Text Vis.: or its function is to inhibit partiality. -------------------- N: The Tiika explains that when there is partiality (pakkhapaato), one thinks: Œthis is inferior work, this is more superior work.¹ Impartiality inhibits such partiality. Whatever the object is, equanimity views it with impartiality and conditions the asociated dhammas to perform their own functions with regard to the object. At such a moment there is no aversion towards it, no dislike, nor is there attachment to it. We read in the Co. to the ³Abhidhammattha Sangaha² (T.A. p. 331): ³Equanimity has the characteristic of keeping balance in the face of what is desired and undesired.² ------------------------- Text Vis.: It is manifested as neutrality. It should be regarded as like a conductor (driver) who looks with equanimity on thoroughbreds progressing evenly. ********** N: Together with the other sobhana cetasikas, equanimity supports kusala citta. When there is an opportunity for daana, it inhibits partiality: there is no idea of wanting to give to this person but not to that person. There is no expectation of gains and favours. When there is an opportunity for siila one abstains from akusala with equanimity. One does not want to harm or hurt others, even when it is hard to abstain from akusala and one has to endure some discomfort. One sees the benefit of kusala and has confidence in it and one does not think of one¹s own wellbeing. Equanimity supports kusala siila when one hears abusive speech and one abstains from retorting it with harsh speech. At such a moment there is no aversion or conceit, no impatience. There is evenmindedness and impartiality towards the object that is experienced. For the development of samatha and vipassanaa one needs equanimity so that one is not impatient with regard to the result of one¹s practice. Equanimity is a condition that there is not sluggishness nor over-exertion. As we read, it causes the associated dhammas to proceed evenly, in a balanced way, just as a charioteer who looks with equanimity on thoroughbreds progressing evenly. In the development of vipassanaa, one learns that in the absolute sense, there are no persons, no situations, only dhammas appearing through the six doors. Through equanimity one will gradually learn to view the object with impartiality, no matter it is pleasant or unpleasant. Equanimity supports the citta and cetasikas to have wise attention to the object. Through equanimity there will be no selection of the object of awareness. All dhammas, no matter whether they are kusala or akusala, are equally suitable for being objects of understanding. Equanimity is one of the factors leading to enlightenment. It develops together with paññaa. When right understanding of dhammas grows, there will be more equanimity towards them. ****** Nina. 44676 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:24am Subject: Re: anusayas. philofillet Hi Nina, and all > > I have been meaning to ask about > > anusayas (accumulations) and whether we can know them or not. > -------------- > N: We know *that* we have them, because they condition the arising of > akusala cittas. We have all of them! Ph: I see. Know *that* we have them, before we can hope to know more than that. > ----------- > Ph: This is one of the things I get mixed signals from in Kh Sujin and > Nina's > > teaching. > ------------ > N: Pardon, I do not teach. Ph: Ok, sorry about that. And sorry for "mixed signals." That wasn't the right word. It has to do with the "you *should* be perplexed" (baffled? What was that word?) line of the Buddha - the Buddha's teaching is subtle and contrary to the ways of the world. There are many paradoxical aspects that beginners struggle with - if they unwisely choose to struggle, that is, as I was when I posted this morning. > -------------- > Ph: There are times Kh Sujin says that we shouldn't even > > expect to figure out if a citta that has fallen away is kusala or > > akusala, and other times when I read that knowing our anusayas is > > very important. > -------------- > N: Knowing that we have anusayas is important, it shows us conditions for > akusala citta. Anusayas are so stubborn, deeply rooted. That is why we make > the same mistakes again and again, as Lodewijk says. Ph: So seeing our repeated mistakes is an indicator of anusayas. I like that line in Dhammapada. "See the man who has been set free run back to his chains." Instead of using that moment to understand anusays and feel gratitude to the Buddha who teaches the way out, we fret and regret and beat ourselves up, just tightening the chains. I ahven't had an angry outburst in months and months. But the tendency is lying there, latent. When it comes, as it will, will I understand anusayas - will akusala condition kusala? > ---------------- > Ph: If we don't really know whether a citta was kusala > > or akusala, if we can't know rupa from nama yet, how on earth can we > > know our anusayas? > -------------- > N: Right, we notice kusala citta and akusala citta in a coarse way, but we > do not know them yet as pure naama, we take them for self. > However, we can begin to develop more understanding of them when they occur. > Anusayas do not arise, they are latent, lying dormant. But they are strong > conditioning factors. > ---------- > N: The Buddha wanted to cause people to have a sense of urgency here. We > should not be neglectful but develop the way leading to the end of > defilements. Ph: I read in today's passage from Cetasika that the sotapanna sees deeply into dukkha, conditioning urgency and right effort. So seeing our anusayas with right understanding and gaining urgency from it might be akin to seeing into dukkha. Thanks for your feedback, Nina. I have no further questions about anusayas at this time. Metta, Phil 44677 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is "good friend" rupa or nama? philofillet Hi Nina, and all Nina > When listening to the good friend, certainly, sound can be a condition. It > depends on the aspect one views the matter. Ph: I had been saddened by a news story of a mother who was stabbed in front of her small child, and found that a passage you quote from vism about khandas being so fleeting, just this moment, then gone, was helpful, when it came to mind. At other times it might not be helpful. I thought of the first audio clip in the files, when you are talking to Kh Sujin about your attachemnt to Lodewijk, and how you worry, and you say that it feels like a cold shower when Kh Sujin says it's just nama, and Kh Sujin says "but it's the truth...it's the truth." I find something very soothing and encouraging in the tone of her voice at that moment. I think it could be that the rupa of her voice is conditioned by kusala citta and that sound has in itself a conditioning power. Metta, Phil 44678 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings10 Â?ELivelihood & Assis ting the Hunte r?= rjkjp1 Dear Howard, Nice about the raccons, cool animals I think (not having any where I come from). I agree with your points about the bombing raid. It is certainly true that it is considerably less akusala if one is following orders only because of duty, rather than keenly wanting to, but still akusala. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > 44679 From: Ken O Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Tep / Review messages # 16499 and 21601- Ken O ashkenn2k Hi Tep As far as I know, mind cannot be working in the background while concentration at the present moment. Citta cannot concentrated on the present moment at one object while at the same time that it is aware of of other phenomena. Citta moves so fast, so there is an illusion that there is mind in the background. Just like when we are watching a movie, the citta is moving so fast that we thought we are listening as well as seeing. The mind is like the monkey moving from one branch to another branch, in that sense to me, it is continuous singularlly. Ken O Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com 44680 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:33am Subject: Visitors htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Originally the host is there at home. Once visitors come in and meet the host. Visitors leave. The host is there at home as usual. Some visitors are good and they help the host. Some visitors are bad and they destroy the environment and the host. Some visitors are just behaving like familiar friends. Originally citta is there at home. It is bhavanga citta. The home is hadaya vatthu. Once visitors of different cittas come in the home of hadaya vatthu and meet citta. Visitors of different cittas leave the home hadaya vatthu. The host citta become bhavanga citta and at home of hadaya vatthu as usual. Some visitors are good like 'karuna citta, mudita citta, mahakusala cittas'. Some visitors are bad like dosa citta, lobha citta, mana citta and they destroy the environment hadaya vatthu, and other visitors of associated cetasikas and the host, originally pure citta. Some visitors are just behaving like familiar friends like contact, feeling, volition, perception, one-pointedness, mental-life, and attention. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44681 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: Tep / Review messages # 16499 and 21601- Ken O buddhistmedi... Dear Ken O - > Ken O: > As far as I know, mind cannot be working in the background while > concentration at the present moment. Citta cannot concentrated on > the present moment at one object while at the same time that it is > aware of of other phenomena. Tep: You most certainly were talking about the individual cittas while I was talking about mental states or streams of conciousness. By the way, how can you deny that while your attention is on the breaths, you can also be aware of sensations and perception in that moment? How can you deny that while your mindfulness is on the arising and passing-away phenomena of sensations (vedana), you can also be aware of your in-and-out breathing? Of course, only when the mind is absorbed in the object of meditation, then it is not aware of the bodily pains caused by long sitting, for example. KO: > The mind is like the monkey moving from > one branch to another branch, in that sense to me, it is continuous > singularlly. > Tep: While a monkey is about to swing to the next branch, its attention is shifted to that branch and the current branch is now in the "background" of its consciousness. Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Tep 44682 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: good wishes to Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, For the 25th: many happy returns and may you grow in the Dhamma. I also wish you a very pleasant vacation. Nina. op 22-04-2005 15:56 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > We're taking our older son's family > (including our granddaughter), who live in Texas, and my younger son & his > girlfriend, who live near us, on a trip to Disney World in Florida to > celebrate my > 65th birthday. 44683 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 – Livelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= nilovg Hi Ken and Sarah, thank you for your explanations. I understand: virati cetasika arises in a moment. And as Sarah said: If we are of the opinion that anatta can be taken too far - that > sometimes it is wrong to realise there are only dhammas (no > controlling self) - then, it seems to me, panna will be reluctant > (or hesitant) to take the step from pariyatti to patipatti. I am > assuming you would agree with that, so I am still curious to know > where your reservations fit in with the Abhidhamma. 44684 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: anusayas. buddhistmedi... Hello Phil (Nina and others ) - Ph: I read in today's passage from Cetasika that the sotapanna sees deeply into dukkha, conditioning urgency and right effort. So seeing our anusayas with right understanding and gaining urgency from it might be akin to seeing into dukkha. Tep: Nina said that anusayas did not arise and that they were strong conditioning factors for akusala cittas. In conection to that may I ask you some questions? <1> How do you "see" anusayas with right understanding since, unlike the five clinging aggregates, they do not arise for you to see them? Shouldn't you observe the mind which is conditioned by anusayas instead? <2> Anusayas are not mentioned in the Maha-satipatthana Sutta, so you can't be mindful of them by dhammanupassana. What would you do to gain urgency from them? [ I am not sure what you mean by "gaining urgency". Do you mean abandoning them without delays?] Thank you in advance. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hi Nina, and all > > > > I have been meaning to ask about > > > anusayas (accumulations) and whether we can know them or not. > > -------------- > > Ph: If we don't really know whether a citta was kusala > > > or akusala, if we can't know rupa from nama yet, how on earth > can we > > > know our anusayas? > > -------------- > > N: Right, we notice kusala citta and akusala citta in a coarse > way, but we do not know them yet as pure naama, we take them for self. > > However, we can begin to develop more understanding of them when they occur. Anusayas do not arise, they are latent, lying dormant. But they are strong conditioning factors. > 44685 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: good wishes to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/22/05 2:30:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > For the 25th: many happy returns and may you grow in the Dhamma. I also wish > you a very pleasant vacation. > Nina. > ===================== Thanks so much! (For both wishes!!) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44686 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unchanging, For All Times dacostacharles I realize this is old but something was present I had to comment on: "TG This passage is instruction to thwart conceptualizing things as entities or self." The idea of the of "conceptualizing things as entities or self." is not the point or central theme of the suttras. it is to thwart conceptualizing things as something you can hold on to (that can be owned/controlled), as a source of lasting happiness, or as something permanent. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: TGrand458@... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 04 April, 2005 03:17 Subject: Re: [dsg] Unchanging, For All Time ... In a message dated 4/3/05 7:17:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@... writes: > Hi Jon and TG > Your discussion reminds me of the Samannaphala Sutta (DN 2, Walshe) > where it says: "And how, Sire, is he [the monk perfected in morality] > a guardian of the sense-doors? Here a monk, on seeing a visible > object with the eye, does not grasp at its major signs or secondary > characteristics." It goes on similarly with the other senses and > talks about the "eye-faculty" etc which is probably the same as "eye- > door". > > Re this sutta, TG, are you able to understand it ("major signs" > and "secondary characteristics") without reference to commentarial or > Abhidhammic materials, the latter you know to be "definitely not the > word of the Buddha" but apparently still partially "authoritative"? > (-: > TG This passage is instruction to thwart conceptualizing things as entities or self. 44687 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:42am Subject: The Good...!!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Fourfold Advantage: A deity once asked the Buddha: What is good even when one is old ? What is good when established ? What is human's most precious treasure ? What is hard for thieves to steal ? The blessed Buddha answered: Morality is good even when one is old ! Faith is good when established ! Understanding is human's most precious treasure ! Merit is hard for thieves to steal ! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 36 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44688 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 3:39pm Subject: Dangers, Supports, causes etc matheesha333 Hello, One of Geoff's answers sparked off a memory which I would like to know a bit more about. It is about the buddha talking about knowing a list of things like near causes, supports, the danger, the cessation, etc of some dhamma. I seem to recall coming across this in a sutta and i think it is mentioned quite a bit in the commentaries. I feel it might be a structural pattern for invesitgation into the dhamma, and that to me is very interesting practice point. If anyone knows more about it, any info will be welcome. many thanks, Matheesha 44689 From: "Philip" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:23pm Subject: Re: conditions for right awareness. philofillet Hi James Just a word of thanks on this for now. > Ps. As a suggestion, during your free moments, rather than reading > dhamma reminders in your notebook, why don't you contemplate the 32 > parts of the body as detailed in the Satipatthana Sutta? I bet you > would find a marked improvement in the strength of your mindfulness. Since you are a good friend, this suggestion will stick with me. That is what being a Dhamma friend is all about. That is what conditions is all about. It is not about *reading* the reminders, though. It is about reflecting on them. Usually the reflection will arise without a reminder from the notebook, but the notebook is helpful. I will write down the passage with the 32 parts of the body. And we will see how deeply and how often reflection will arise. I already reflect fairly often on the 4 great elements, as advised by the Buddha to Rahula ("Rahula, develop meditation that is like the earth; for when you develop meditation that is like the earth, arisen agreeable and disagreeable contacts will not invade your mind and remain.") I would guess off the top of my head that reflecting on the 4 great elements might be more helpful for me than reflecting in detail on body parts, since the latter are more conceptual than the elements. (ie sinews, bones and bone marrow etc are compsed of the four elements when you get down to it.) I do find that this reflection on body parts arises on occasion with respect to foulness when there is awareness of sensual lust towards a woman. (More often other approaches to this situation arise, for example considerations of the the feelings of the other person, metta perhaps.) Anyways, thanks for the reminder. That's what beinga Dhamma friend is all about. I'll get back on the rest of this post and the other one later. Metta, Phhil 44690 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: good wishes to Howard - and Jon buddhistmedi... Dear Howard and Jon - Please allow me to join Nina to give Happy Birthday wishes to you both. May you achieve a great success in your Dhamma practice, and become (at least) Sotapannas in this life. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 4/22/05 2:30:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > vangorko@x... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > For the 25th: many happy returns and may you grow in the Dhamma. I also wish > > you a very pleasant vacation. > > Nina. > > > ===================== > Thanks so much! (For both wishes!!) > > With metta, > Howard > 44691 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:48pm Subject: Re: Asankhata buddhistmedi... Hello Lisa - I would like to contribute a little to your presentation on Nibbana. The following three quotes are my favorite description of Nibbana. (I) "Any sensual bliss in the world, any heavenly bliss, isn't worth one sixteenth-sixteenth of the bliss of the ending of craving." [Udana II.2] (II) "One who is dependent has wavering. One who is independent has no wavering. There being no wavering, there is calm. There being calm, there is no desire. There being no desire, there is no coming or going. There being no coming or going, there is no passing away or arising. There being no passing away or arising, there is neither a here nor a there nor a between-the-two. This, just this, is the end of stress." [Udana VIII.4, Nibbana Sutta] (III) "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- reflects thus: 'This is peace, this is exquisite -- the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, cessation, Unbinding.' This is called the perception of cessation". AN X.60 Girimananda Sutta (Ten Perceptions) Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > > > Asankhata? The Unconditioned (Nibbana)Beyond conceptual thought? > The prominence of mental defilements and requisites of enlightenment in its schemes of categories, indicative of its psychological and ethical concerns, connects the Abhidhamma to the second and fourth noble truths, the origin of suffering and the way leading to its end. And the entire taxonomy of dhammas elaborated by the system reaches its consummation in the "unconditioned element" (asankhata dhatu), which is Nibbana, the third noble truth, that of the cessation of suffering. > > http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/abhiman.html > 44692 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 0:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: good wishes to Howard - and Jon upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 4/22/05 7:32:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepyawa@... writes: > Dear Howard and Jon - > > Please allow me to join Nina to give Happy Birthday wishes to you > both. May you achieve a great success in your Dhamma practice, and > become (at least) Sotapannas in this life. > > Respectfully, > > > =================== Thanks! Yes, indeed, at LEAST sotapannas!!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44693 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re:Breathing. - Message # 27400 buddhistmedi... Dear Nina, Kel, Mike, James, Phil and other DSG members - In the DSG message # 44610, Nina wrote: > Dear Tep, > No need to step aside. As Htoo says, this is a forum > and we all can butt in. > Nina Of course, Nina, the "butt-in permission" is a good policy. In the previous mail Nina's abhidhamma remark on "breathing" meditation was : > As Mike says, > breathing in long etc.--seems to me to be a concept. > Yes, but the citta which attends to it is a nama, non-self. > It has to be realized as such. Citta is one of the four applications > of mindfulness that one should attend to. Also, even one > knows that breathing is long, there is still rupa impinging, > and hardness or heat may appear. Tep : In the mind of the anapanasati meditator there is no concern whether breathing is a concept or it is a rupa. If hardness or heat may appear and vedana may result from the phassa, it doesn't matter to him/her either. Only piti and sukha (jhana factors) are the objects of the citta in the second tetrad (the breath is the object of the citta in the first tetrad). Your review of anapanasati Commentaries in the Vism. (see the DSG message # 27400) summarizes it very well. N: As regards , the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 227) explains: How is happiness experienced with the object? He attains the two jhanas in which happiness(piti) is present. At the time when he has actually entered upon them the happiness is experienced with the object owing to the obtaining of the jhana, because of the experiencing of the object. After the jhanacitta has fallen away panna realizes the characteristic of piti as it is: only a kind of nama, which is impermanent and not self. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > No need to step aside. As Htoo says, this is a forum and we all can butt in. > Nina > op 20-04-2005 01:37 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > Nina, I understand that your message was directed to Mike and Kel, so > > it should be more appropriate for me to step aside until Mike and Kel > > have responded. 44694 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 – Livelihood & Assisting the Hunter gazita2002 Dear Sarah and others on this thread, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Nina, (KenO, Azita & All) > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah, > > your example of the hunter's wife is in the sutta. It is a specific > > case. > > These people were ripe to become sotapannas. But the other examples, I > > have > > doubts about. S: > Azita mentioned that as a nurse in her hospital, sometimes she is assigned > to work in the operating theatre when abortions are performed. Again, she > has no intention to harm of course. She can add more perhaps. It's like > the hunter's wife who is instructed to assist her husband, .............. > Metta, > > Sarah Azita: I want to clarfy that the above event took place prior to my having heard the dhamma - about 30 years ago. These days I would firmly decline the position of assisting anyone perform abortions as I believe it to be akusala kamma. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 44695 From: "Lisa" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 6:22pm Subject: Re: Asankhata foamflowers Dhammafriend Tep, I pray you consider me a Dhammafriend I admire your posts along with everyone else on this board who has the courage, faith and equanimity to put their effort out there for all to see. When I read this last passage I see two ways of reading it and I pray you don't mind my sharing personal views. One way of reading the passage for me is to see someone sit away from civilization alone in the wilderness under the shade of a tree or empty building. To be alone not dependent on anyone or anything, letting go of all cravings and aversions, unbinding from thoughts of this is me, this is mine and all the cravings and aversions that go with this kind of ignorance. To see attachments and aversions becoming smaller and less important and finally they no longer moved and this is bliss this is peace. (Tep posted) (III) "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- reflects thus: 'This is peace, this is exquisite -- the stilling of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, cessation, Unbinding.' This is called the perception of cessation". AN X.60 Girimananda Sutta (Ten Perceptions) (Lisa) To sit in the wilderness is to sit in the jumble of thoughts, emotions, feelings, and sensation that come and go within the body/mind and observe all this without conceptual overlay as I go about the day. To sit in the shade of a pure mind free of conceptual grasping and reaction to what is pleasant or unpleasant and see all things that are manifested as equal. To sit by an empty house, which is like siting in bare awareness at the root of the mind with the knowledge that all things, which come and go within that body/mind are empty like a house with no thing in it. And this is peace, this is relinquishment of all things that are dependent on other to be. The ending of craving and aversion, unbinding from what I think is me and what I do not think is me, this is Nibbana, this is freedom. That is actually my daily meditation right now because I have only an hour of formal sitting time per day, so I've tried to take my meditation through out my day. I took a year off to heal a bad back and could sit and meditate eight hours a day five days a week. A couple of months ago I went back to work and my back has healed up very nicely. I am working on getting to know Abhidhamma pitaka (further teachings) and its terms so please be patient with me I am just a beginner and love the freedom of learning something new. It gives me space to learn when I know I don't have a clue about the subject I am trying to understand. Hopefully my future post will be sprinkled with Abhidhamma words and concepts that add the right spice and flavor to this boards tastes. I do not mind critical review of my posts as I understand that all things that come and go are equal in nature and understanding this plus learning this advanced teaching will test my equanimity and mindfulness. I look forward to the difficult task of learning and understanding the details of consciousness from the Abhidhamma system. With Metta, Lisa (trying very hard not to jump up and down and say yahoooooo this is going to be fun!!!!) 44696 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Breathing. - Message # 27400 lbidd2 Tep: "In the mind of the anapanasati meditator there is no concern whether breathing is a concept or it is a rupa." Hi Tep, Someone who is practicing anapanasati for insight might be interested in what is concept and what is rupa in order to understand the reality of hardness and the unreality of breathing. And someone who is practicing anapanasati for jhana must know what is concept and what is rupa. The sign of in-and-out breathing is a concept. Larry 44697 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:18pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 175 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (f) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== When one has just started to develop satipaììhåna, sati does not often arise. One may wonder how many years it will take before there can be any progress. When we think of the goal with desire or when we are afraid of failure there is akusala citta. We may not notice that there is any progress, but even if there is sometimes one moment of mindfulness of a reality appearing through one of the six doors, right understanding can develop little by little. Sati which arises falls away, but it is never lost, it conditions the arising again of sati later on. Instead of having desire for enlightenment we should see the value of right understanding at this moment. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44698 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:20pm Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Musings10 – Livelihood & Assisting the Hunter sarahprocter... Hi Azita, --- gazita2002 wrote: > > Azita: I want to clarfy that the above event took place prior to my > having heard the dhamma - about 30 years ago. > These days I would firmly decline the position of assisting > anyone perform abortions as I believe it to be akusala kamma. ... S: Thanks for clarifying and I'm glad to hear it. Hope you're all having a good weekend together. Look f/w to your reports... Metta, Sarah ========= 44699 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Simon sarahprocter... Hi Simon, --- simon ralfe wrote: > As requested here's a little about myself. I'm a GP , and have been > involved with buddhism for 4 years, starting after a trip to India and > Nepal. I have had the good fortune to meet many sangha, and regularly > visit Chithurst , West Sussex. > And I'm keen to learn from whatever source is available! .... S: Many thanks for this intro and welcome to DSG! I'm interested to know if you live near Chithurst? I come from West Sussex myself (as does Alan W, the founder of the 'Zolag' website) and used to visit Chithurst from time to time when Ven Sumedho first established it. Please join in any threads or start your own and let us know if you need any assistance in finding your way around. You may find the Pali glossary in the 'files' section helpful and also the Nyantiloka Pali dict on-line. Also in 'Useful Posts' in files, you may like to look at posts under 'Abhidhamma- beginners' or anything else which seems relevant. Look forward to talking to you later. Metta, Sarah ====== 44700 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:04am Subject: [dsg] Re:Breathing. - Message # 27400 buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Nina, Kel, Mike, James, Phil and other DSG members - > > Tep : In the mind of the anapanasati meditator there is no concern > whether breathing is a concept or it is a rupa. If hardness or heat may > appear and vedana may result from the phassa, it doesn't matter to > him/her either. Only piti and sukha (jhana factors) are the objects of the > citta in the second tetrad (the breath is the object of the citta in the first > tetrad). Your review of anapanasati Commentaries in the Vism. (see > the DSG message # 27400) summarizes it very well. You explain this very well. Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu! Metta, James 44701 From: nina Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:01am Subject: Mahaa-satipatthaana, 1. nilovg Dear friends, Mahåsatipatthåna Acharn Sujin¹s lectures at the Foundation. 1. In the first Application of Mindfulness, Mindfulness of the Body, there are the sections on Mindfulness on Breathing, the Postures, the Four kinds of Clear Comprehension, the Parts of the Body, the Elements, the Cemetery Contemplations. When people hear about Mindfulness on Breathing, the Parts of the Body, or the Cemetery Contemplations, they wonder whether this means that one has to cultivate jhåna first. They seem to be objects of samatha. In Samatha, samådhi is the leading factor to the attainment of jhåna with the nimitta, the mental image as object. In ånåpånasati as object of samatha, samådhi one does not attend to anything else but the breath. In vipassanå one has to be aware of the characteristics of realities and develop understanding of these in order to know realities as impermanent, dukkha and anattå. Those who had already developed jhåna would ask the Buddha how the development of this meditation subject of samatha could lead to great benefit, great fruit. The answer was: in seeing the body in the body, feeling in feeling, citta in citta, dhamma in dhamma. N: In the Mahå-Råhulovådasutta Råhula asked the Buddha this with regard to Mindfulness of Breathing. The Buddha explained to him first all the realities included in the five Khandhas so that he would learn to be mindful of them. Sujin: In the Application of Mindfulness of the Body all subjects that are connected with the body are included, beginning with the most subtle rúpa of breath and ending with the coarser rúpas such as bones, which are foul and the cemetery contemplations. All these sections are meant as a means of recollecting realities, as reminders not to be forgetful of realities. **** Nina. 44702 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Breathing. - Message # 27400, Htoo nilovg Dear Tep and Htoo, op 23-04-2005 02:46 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@...: > > Tep : In the mind of the anapanasati meditator there is no concern > whether breathing is a concept or it is a rupa. If hardness or heat may > appear and vedana may result from the phassa, it doesn't matter to > him/her either. Only piti and sukha (jhana factors) are the objects of the > citta in the second tetrad (the breath is the object of the citta in the first > tetrad). Your review of anapanasati Commentaries in the Vism. (see > the DSG message # 27400) summarizes it very well. --------------- N: Larry explains the difference between the object of jhana (a concept, a nimitta) and of vipassana: not a concept. As said to Phil, I shall wrote about what I heard on MP3. ------------------------ T quotes N: As regards , the > Visuddhimagga (VIII, 227) explains: How is happiness experienced > with the object? He attains the two jhanas in which happiness(piti) is > present. At the time when he has actually entered upon them the > happiness is experienced with the object owing to the obtaining of the > jhana, because of the experiencing of the object. After the jhanacitta > has fallen away panna realizes the characteristic of piti as it is: only a > kind of nama, which is impermanent and not self. --------------- N: The yogavacara has to know which jhanafactors he has abandoned and which ones are remaining. Once he enters jhana he experiences the nimitta with piti, but this does not mean that the citta can have piti as object and also the nimitta. Each citta can have only one object at a time. I find that Ken O explained this clearly re background. I admit that the text is very compact. I would like to ask Htoo what he thinks. Nina. 44703 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: conditions for right awareness. nilovg Hi Phil, I shall go into this in a separate post, concerning what I heard on MP3, satipatthana. This will also cover other points touched on by Tep. Nina. op 23-04-2005 01:23 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > I would guess off the top of my head that > reflecting on the 4 great elements might be more helpful for me than > reflecting in detail on body parts, since the latter are more > conceptual than the elements. (ie sinews, bones and bone marrow etc > are compsed of the four elements when you get down to it.) 44704 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:42am Subject: Re: Mahaa-satipatthaana, 1. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: Dear friends, Mahåsatipatthåna Acharn Sujin¹s lectures at the Foundation. 1. In the first Application of Mindfulness, Mindfulness of the Body, there are the sections on Mindfulness on Breathing, the Postures, the Four kinds of Clear Comprehension, the Parts of the Body, the Elements, the Cemetery Contemplations. When people hear about Mindfulness on Breathing, the Parts of the Body, or the Cemetery Contemplations, they wonder whether this means that one has to cultivate jhåna first. They seem to be objects of samatha. ----------------------------------------------------------------- In Samatha, samådhi is the leading factor to the attainment of jhåna with the nimitta, the mental image as object. In ånåpånasati as object of samatha, samådhi one does not attend to anything else but the breath. In vipassanå one has to be aware of the characteristics of realities and develop understanding of these in order to know realities as impermanent,dukkha and anattå. Those who had already developed jhåna would ask the Buddha how the development of this meditation subject of samatha could lead to great benefit, great fruit. The answer was: in seeing the body in the body, feeling in feeling, citta in citta, dhamma in dhamma. N: In the Mahå-Råhulovådasutta Råhula asked the Buddha this with regard to Mindfulness of Breathing. The Buddha explained to him first all the realities included in the five Khandhas so that he would learn to be mindful of them. Sujin: In the Application of Mindfulness of the Body all subjects that are connected with the body are included, beginning with the most subtle rúpa of breath and ending with the coarser rúpas such as bones, which are foul and the cemetery contemplations. All these sections are meant as a means of recollecting realities, as reminders not to be forgetful of realities. **** Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, thank you very much for your post on Mahaa-satipatthaana,1. What I feel is that there is 'the present', which is moving to be 'all the time present'. So there is no 'future', no 'past' in real term. Mahasatipatthana sutta is a valid teaching taught by The Buddha to bhikkhus ( at Kammaasadhamma village of Kuruu state ) and not to 'lay people'. The Buddha said , 'Bhikkhave'. This is retold by Venerable Ananda in the sutta as 'Tatra kho bhikkhuu aamantesi 'Bhikkhavo'ti. Bhikkhavo'ti means 'Bhikkhave' + iti (such). So what Ven. Ananda said was 'The Buddha said, 'Bhikkhave'. This is addressing to all bhikkhus in front of Him (The Buddha) when he preached this sutta. This sutta is a valid sutta for teaching to bhikkhus, who are the teachers of lay disciples. The sutta goes 'session' after 'session'. I think these sessions were summerised by Ven Ananda so as to present to Ven Kassapa and other 498 arahats. With respect, Htoo Naing 44705 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:06pm Subject: The Right Roots...!!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Steady & Simple ever increasing Advantage Today on this Full moon Uposatha Observance day, lay Buddhist disciples gain their ticket to future divinity, and their approach towards Nibbana by keeping these 8 simple & sound rules of training from sunrise to sunrise: 1: I hereby agree to avoid killing any living being. 2: I hereby agree to abstain from taking what is not given. 3: I hereby agree to refrain from any sexual activity. 4: I hereby agree to desist from false speech. 5: I hereby agree to shun alcohol & drugs causing carelessness. 6: I hereby agree to not eat any solid food after 12 noon. 7: I hereby agree to avoid dancing, music, shows, & cosmetics. 8: I hereby agree to refrain from sleeping on a fine high bed. On the ancient Buddhist habit of Uposatha observance Days see: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/misc/uposatha.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel206/uposatha.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44706 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 6:42am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Htoo buddhistmedi... Hi Larry, James, Nina, Ken O, Htoo, Mike, Kel, Phil and others - Do you believe that the nut-and-bolt knowledge of the Abhidhamma is very useful for the samatha-vipassana meditation? Recently Mike and Nina pointed out that breathing was a concept which made it "unqualified" as object of satipatthana. I also have heard the suggestion that Anapanasati is samatha bhavana because the breath is not an ultimate reality. But those who study the Anapanasati Sutta know that the full version of Anapanasati consists of four tetrads for kayanupassana satipatthana, vedananupassana satipatthana, cittanupassana satipatthana, and dhammanupassana satipatthana - all four in one. This fact suggests that anapanasati and Satipatthana are very compatible (like water and milk?). Does this imply that it doesn't matter that the breath is a concept or a rupa -- as long as it works as an effective meditation object that was used by and recommended by the Buddha? Larry (message #44696) gives two reasons why someone should be interested in knowing whether the breath is a concept or a rupa : L: Someone who is practicing anapanasati for insight might be > interested in what is concept and what is rupa in order to > understand the reality of hardness and the unreality of breathing. > And someone who is practicing anapanasati for jhana must know > what is concept and what is rupa. The sign of in-and-out breathing > is a concept. T: Intellectual understanding of concept and rupa is important for intellectuals, but how does such understanding help the anapanasati yogi to achieve jhana? Sure, clear understanding of nama and rupa is a basis of Analytical Knowledge of Body and Mind, but I don't know how the intellectual understanding of concept and rupa in regard to breathing may help the anapanasati yogi attain jhana prior to vipassana-nana (in the 4th tetrad). Ken O (message # 44679) was talking about citta's nature of being able to take one object at a time. Ken O: Citta cannot concentrated on the present moment at one object > while at the same time that it is aware of of other phenomena. > Citta moves so fast, so there is an illusion that there is mind > in the background. T: I understand that basic concept of the Abhidhamma too. But how could such Abhidhamma principle assist the anapanasati yogi to attain jhana and vipassana-nana? (In message # 44702) N: The yogavacara has to know which > jhanafactors he has abandoned and which ones are remaining. > Once he enters jhana he experiences the nimitta with piti, > but this does not mean that the citta can have piti as object > and also the nimitta. T: It doesn't mean either that the yogavacara needs be concerned about whether piti or the nimitta is the legitimate object of his meditation, or if it is possible for one of the them to be in the backgorund, etc.. The anapanasati yogi simply jumps into the water and is busy swimming. The Abhidhammic intellectuals may think about the Abhidhamma principles so much that they only gain some intellectual understanding - but that intellectual understanding is not free from doubts, because there is no experience to back it up. Respectfully yours, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep and Htoo, > > op 23-04-2005 02:46 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > > Tep : In the mind of the anapanasati meditator there is no concern > > whether breathing is a concept or it is a rupa. If hardness or heat may > > appear and vedana may result from the phassa, it doesn't matter to > > him/her either. Only piti and sukha (jhana factors) are the objects of the > > citta in the second tetrad (the breath is the object of the citta in the first > > tetrad). Your review of anapanasati Commentaries in the Vism. (see > > the DSG message # 27400) summarizes it very well. > --------------- > N: Larry explains the difference between the object of jhana (a concept, a > nimitta) and of vipassana: not a concept. > As said to Phil, I shall wrote about what I heard on MP3. > ------------------------ > T quotes N: As regards , the > > Visuddhimagga (VIII, 227) explains: How is happiness experienced > > with the object? He attains the two jhanas in which happiness(piti) is > > present. At the time when he has actually entered upon them the > > happiness is experienced with the object owing to the obtaining of the > > jhana, because of the experiencing of the object. After the jhanacitta > > has fallen away panna realizes the characteristic of piti as it is: only a > > kind of nama, which is impermanent and not self. > --------------- > N: The yogavacara has to know which jhanafactors he has abandoned and which > ones are remaining. Once he enters jhana he experiences the nimitta with > piti, but this does not mean that the citta can have piti as object and also > the nimitta. > Each citta can have only one object at a time. I find that Ken O explained > this clearly re background. > I admit that the text is very compact. I would like to ask Htoo what he > thinks. > Nina. 44707 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disneyland to Howard. nilovg Hi Howard, I was thinking of Disneyland. Your schedule is quite different from the usual. Perhaps no time for your usual quiet hours, when traveling. But you said that one should carry on one's meditation to daily life. I listened to Kh. Sujin saying: we should not limit awareness to time, place or object and I thought of Disneyland. This may seem rather distracting, lots of noise, but she said that this is the right effort of the eightfold Path: not putting any limits to the objects of awareness, no matter in what situation we are. We often discussed right effort and you were wondering: is only listening enough? No, also applying what one heard. Also in Disneyland there are sights, sounds, smells, thinking. Atapii (ardorous), sampajano satima! Let us know please of your different vipaakas and experiences while you were traveling, Nina. 44708 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:14am Subject: Re: Asankhata buddhistmedi... Dhammafriend Lisa - Of course every member here is our dhammafriend, and I have learned a lot since the day I joined DSG. I am happy to read your posts too. > Lisa (trying very hard not to jump up and down and say > yahoooooo this is going to be fun!!!!) T: I am glad that you are well energized! L: When I read this last passage I see two ways of reading it > and I pray you don't mind my sharing personal views. >To be alone not dependent on anyone or anything, letting go > of all cravings and aversions, unbinding from thoughts of > this is me, this is mine and all the cravings and aversions > that go with this kind of ignorance. To see attachments and > aversions becoming smaller and less important and finally > they no longer moved and this is bliss this is peace. T: Nina and Htoo often say that we are here to share our thoughts. The letting go attitude will help you go a long way, and you will never have to write a farewell/goodbye message because your feeling is hurt by someone's criticism. I really like your interpretation of the Perception of Cessation (Nirodha- sanna). Thanks! L: And this is peace, this is relinquishment of all things that are > dependent on other to be. The ending of craving and aversion, > unbinding from what I think is me and what I do not think is me, > this is Nibbana, this is freedom. T: Precisely. Very well said, Lisa. Now, what about the other nine perceptions in AN X.60? Sincerely yours, Tep May your persistence be aroused and not lax; your mindfulness established and not confused; your body calm and not aroused; your mind centered and unified. AN III.40: Adhipateyya Sutta ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > > > Dhammafriend Tep, > > I pray you consider me a Dhammafriend I admire your posts along with > everyone else on this board who has the courage, faith and equanimity > to put their effort out there for all to see. > 44709 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disneyland to Howard. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/23/05 10:09:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I was thinking of Disneyland. > Your schedule is quite different from the usual. Perhaps no time for your > usual quiet hours, when traveling. > But you said that one should carry on one's meditation to daily life. > I listened to Kh. Sujin saying: we should not limit awareness to time, place > or object and I thought of Disneyland. This may seem rather distracting, > lots of noise, but she said that this is the right effort of the eightfold > Path: not putting any limits to the objects of awareness, no matter in what > situation we are. > We often discussed right effort and you were wondering: is only listening > enough? No, also applying what one heard. > Also in Disneyland there are sights, sounds, smells, thinking. > Atapii (ardorous), sampajano satima! > Let us know please of your different vipaakas and experiences while you were > traveling, > Nina. > ======================== Thanks, Nina. I agree with the importance of attempting to be mindful and clearly comprehending at all times. (Difficult to achieve, but foolish to ignore.) My ongoing practice in that regard puts attention on bodily sensations and position as primary "anchor", and in the process much of all else that arises is noted as well. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44710 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:29am Subject: Re: anusayas. philofillet Hi Tep, and all > Tep: Nina said that anusayas did not arise and that they were strong > conditioning factors for akusala cittas. In conection to that may I ask > you some questions? > <1> How do you "see" anusayas with right understanding since, unlike > the five clinging aggregates, they do not arise for you to see them? That's what I was wondering about. However, in the passage that I quoted from Cetasikas, it was an enlightened person who sees into dukkha in the anusayas. For us, all we can do is think about them, and speculate, as far as I can see. We can come to see the mistakes we repeatedly make, the traps we repeatedly fall into, our character traits, our habitual likings, the things that tend to irritate us, the things that tend to move us to tears, and so on. But we can only think about them, and speculate, and obviously we are thinking about them through a thick cloud of ignorance. We can say "panna will know" - it is an easy way to answer these questions, but I think it's true, don't you? Faith in the Buddha's teaching tells me so. > Shouldn't you observe the mind which is conditioned by anusayas > instead? > <2> Anusayas are not mentioned in the Maha-satipatthana Sutta, so > you can't be mindful of them by dhammanupassana. What would you > do to gain urgency from them? [ I am not sure what you mean > by "gaining urgency". Do you mean abandoning them without delays?] Again, this was referring to a sotapanna, if I recall correctly. I am always doubtful about urgency for wordlings. Isn't urgency more often conditioned by fear than by right understanding? My usual pattern is to become complacent when things are going well, with suddent bouts of urgency when things are not going well. That is not the way true urgency (samvega) should be, I imagine. I don't know yet what real samvega is, only pseudo samvega, which is really about self struggling to find something reassuring to hold on to, I guess. We will know real urgency as our wisdom develops, or we won't. You are posting with sincere effort these days - I can sense that. What is your motivation? I saw that spray painted in graffiti one day - "Check your motivation" - and I did, and saw that Dhamma for me is often a way to make life richer instead of a way to escape from attachment to senes door objects. Do you feel urgency to escape from samsara? I only do when I'm feeling crappy, which is not the way it should be. What is your motivation to study Dhamma? Is it really to escape from samsara? If I'm honest with myself, I can't say so. I am enjoying life so much these days. Of course enlightened people can enjoy life too, but... I think of the many suttas in which the Buddha warns that he who "seeks delight...seeks suffering." (I sometimes think that enlightened people can "find delight" in an innocuous way without the unwholesomeness of seeking it.) As long as I am seeking delight as much as I do, I cannot speak of urgency. Metta, Phil 44711 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, nilovg Hi Tep, op 23-04-2005 15:42 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Do you believe that the nut-and-bolt knowledge of the Abhidhamma is > very useful for the samatha-vipassana meditation? ---------- N: Yes, but I do not mean that we have to know all details of the abhidhamma, just some basic principles are essential, I would say. We have to know what nama is, what rupa is, we have to have some notions about different processes. Abhidhamma is not directed towards intellectual knowledge, but to the practice of vipassana. --------- T: Recently Mike and Nina pointed out that breathing was a concept > which made it "unqualified" as object of satipatthana. --------------- N: No, it can be object of samatha and of vipassana, but the methods are different. The subtle rupa that is breath appears at the nosetip or upperlip. This rupa, or any nama appearing while breathing can be object of awareness. Also the jhanacitta that attains jhana with the subject of breath can be the object of vipassana. ------------ T:I also have heard > the suggestion that Anapanasati is samatha bhavana because the > breath is not an ultimate reality. But those who study the Anapanasati > Sutta know that the full version of Anapanasati consists of four tetrads > for kayanupassana satipatthana, vedananupassana satipatthana, > cittanupassana satipatthana, and dhammanupassana satipatthana - > all four in one. ------------ N: Yes, that shows that it is for both kinds of bhavana, as you say. ---------- T:This fact suggests that anapanasati and Satipatthana > are very compatible (like water and milk?). Does this imply that it > doesn't matter that the breath is a concept or a rupa -- as long as it > works as an effective meditation object that was used by and > recommended by the Buddha? ----------- N: See Larry's explanation. When it is the nimitta experienced by jhanacitta it is a concept. ---------- > T: ...(snipped) I don't know > how the intellectual understanding of concept and rupa in regard to > breathing may help the anapanasati yogi attain jhana prior to > vipassana-nana (in the 4th tetrad). ------- N: He may not attain jhana but only develop vipassana. -------------- T: (In message # 44702) N: The yogavacara has to know which >> jhanafactors he has abandoned and which ones are remaining. >> Once he enters jhana he experiences the nimitta with piti, >> but this does not mean that the citta can have piti as object >> and also the nimitta. > > T: It doesn't mean either that the yogavacara needs be concerned > about whether piti or the nimitta is the legitimate object of his > meditation, ... ---------- N: The jhanacitta could not change objects, I think. It should be the mental image of breath, on and on, so long as he is in jhana. ---------- T:The Abhidhammic intellectuals may think about > the Abhidhamma principles so much that they only gain some > intellectual understanding - but that intellectual understanding is not > free from doubts, because there is no experience to back it up. --------- N: We all have doubts until we are sotapanna. Right understanding can eradicate doubt. As said, Abhidhamma is not directed towards intellectual understanding. It begins with intellectual understanding, and this can lead to direct understanding. I notice that you have referred to this point before. Perhaps we should discuss this further. We have so much ignorance about seeing, visible object, hearing, sound. The thinking of events and situations covers up the experience of one object through one doorway at a time. This is what happens in reality (also in Disneyland ;-)) ). We forget that life exists only in one moment, no matter we look at hairs, bones, other people. The Abhidhamma really helps us to understand this more. We think of our kusala citta or akusala citta, we take them for self. We fail to see that there are many elements coming together for the arising of one extremely short moment of citta. We learn in the Visuddhimagga that the maha-kusala citta is assisted by many sobhana cetasikas that support it, just for a moment, and then it falls away. Many conditioning factors, some stemming from the past, were needed for that one moment of kusala citta. We can learn in our life that even intellectual understanding is beneficial, that it can help us to understand ourselves and others. It can help us to face difficult situations in our social life. Nina. 44712 From: "Lisa" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:57am Subject: Analyse meditation with Abhidhamma foamflowers Here is my daily meditation. I would like to take my meditation apart and analyse it using Abhidhamma method. I had never put the daily practice I do on paper. Writing it down I found out english words don't go far enough into the details I experience and the Abhidhamma does! This is what I'll be working on while I'm here on the board. The jhana, anapanasati, and vipassana meditation dialoge is very helpful. Daily routine: I wake up and before I open my eyes I go to the breath for a few moments lightly touching the flow of air with my mind and watching sensations as they come and go around the nostrils and upper lip. Next I do a body scan and see if there are any dense areas of sensations or areas that have no sensations. I focus on the dense sensations with 'calm' mind and letting mind flow up and down the body leaning towards more subtle sensations until the dense area vibrates at the same rate as the more subtle areas of sensations. When the body is harmonized sometimes I let the mind become like a ring of light and take it from the tip of my head to my toes and back up again. I try to do this over and over again until my concentration breaks. Sometimes I can keep it up for 15 minutes most of the time this kind of meditation lasts for only 5 minutes. At retreats I've had it go on for one hour. Using the breath and scanning for sensations at the same time will also help me stay focused and helps the mind flow through the body with ease. Lately there has been very interesting sensations in my mid-section under diaphragm near my stomach. This has been coming up in the morning when I am just aware of being awake. The dense sensation seems like thick blanket of fog and anxiety usually follows my awareness of sensation. I have been able to fall or melt into this particular sensation like sinking into a bathtub full of water and just letting the fall away, soon after that the anxiety fades away as well. I've been working on anxiety now for years and it has become very subtle and very difficult to stay on without the mind wandering away after just a few moments of awareness. Also along with this particular vibration in (not surface) my mid-section I get very strong vibrations around the top of my head (surface) near Sagittal Suture close to the top mid-section of the skull. Many times during this kind of meditation I will also watch the lights that come and go along with the bliss that is part of the very subtlest of sensations which act as a bridge to different levels of awarness. Bliss, lights, ringing in the ears, very subtle sensations seem to act as portals, which connect to different other subtle manifestions of the mind. The mind is still aware of the body but it does not hook into sensual data. Usually when I cross over through using subtle sensual vibrations I feel expansion like the darkness behind the closed eyes that grows into a very large area and I can move out like ink in water though with ease just by staying still and aware. There are no thoughts or sensations here. It's kind of like being able to see everywhere at once within my mind and body. Sometimes when I go to this area of subtle spreading out I just watch intricate patterns of light grouped together in circles but they are distant and don't come to play much anymore. I used to get up very close to them and fly through the middle, which was empty like a donut or into the colorful round globes that made up the vibrating wheels. Most of the time I just spread out like air in the lungs though this large dark space with a light touch of awareness like bending the mind towards an object that is focused on, which for this meditation is the vastness and eventually it ends by my focus fading away and I feel content and centered, ready to start my morning. After the morning meditation is through, which is about an hour, the body is vibrating in subtle harmony and the mind is very relaxed and focused I roll over and give my mate a hug and a kiss and we cuddle for about a half of an hour. I don't need an alarm clock I always wake up in time for meditation and hugs with kisses from my sweetie. We get up together and get ready for the day and as I move through the routine of getting ready for the working day I keep my mind on the subtle sensations at play when I interact with objects, thoughts, emotions, feelings and of course my interaction and reaction with people, which is the most important part of my day. My Sweetie and I ride the train to work and I watch my reactions to sensation as I hold his hand while we move through the crowds of people at the train station. I place light attention to the sensations that come up and watch my thoughts start flying from the minds reaction to the sensual data from sight, smell and hearing. I just watch my mind go through it's old habits of reacting to the crowd of people, the noise, and smells, which I don't like to much. In the past I would think oh look at these masses of people around me and watch the thoughts as mind labeled old or young, poor or rich, dirty or clean, beautiful or ugly, stuck up or inviting, angry or happy…on and on and I wasn't aware of my body at all just the thoughts rolling around in my head and my harsh reaction to these thoughts. "Now I note the sensation first and watch for the reaction of the mind towards the sensation then I let it go. All this takes place so quickly there really isn't any kind of thinking involved and it's really not that complicated. Writing all this work down makes seem kind of strange, awkward and involved it's not the process moves like a flowing stream. " It really isn't difficult once I got the methods down it's just a different way of moving about the day, which was so different from the way I used to move. And most of the action I take during working day in the office or at home has nothing to do with the conceptual thought process. The only thoughts that come up are the ones needed for the task at hand and the conversations needed when I problem solve or do tasks with my co-workers. No daydreaming, or thinking about what ifs or should of done this or that, or what someone said or did, I just focus on what is happening right now. No reacting with anger or frustration no defense or pretense. It's really just kind of like being there and doing exactly what needs to be done and that's it. If I make a mistake or do something great I am there and see it happen without interfering. It is a nice freedom to do what is needed at work and not get caught up in the psychological drama that happens in interations with groups of people For the last year as I watch this process it almost seems as if I am swimming through clouds of fine sensation through out my day and it is very pleasant and easy but I can get dizzy and confused if I don't stay alert and aware. I can get lost in the very nice feelings that flow through the body/mind,it is like a stream of very subtle sensation and lose focus on what I'm doing. It's not like daydreaming there are no thoughts or pictures going on it's more like drifting and the mind/body can get dull and tired if I'm not careful. The sensations are so pleasant even my back pain fades into the back ground and if I get scratched it doesn't hurt at all so I have to be very mindful as I move about the day. I work from 9am to 5pm and twice a week I also go work in a restaurant as hostess for a friend who just started his business. So some of my days run as long as 9am to 10pm and staying aware of sensations, feelings, emotions, thoughts, speech, listening, seeing and actions is another form of meditation I can do all day long even if I have to be very active and social. When I have spare minutes at work I go to my breath and turn my eyes slightly up and focus on a point on the wall or a light and just stay quiet. At the restaurant there are quiet times when I can meditate this way before and after the dinner rush. Turning eyes up and staying focused on one point while standing or sitting causes a lovely sensation to come in the area of in between my eyebrows…this brings very subtle movement in this area and a liquid movement though out the body that I try and let flow out towards other people who may be around me the vibration pattern generated reminds me of metta meditation. I try and bring that out beyond the body like shinning a light into the darkness and give it to everyone who may be near me and also to our earth. I get home around 5pm or 10pm and study Dhamma or school lessons (I am not in school this term, not with two jobs lol) for about two hours along with cooking dinner if time allows, my mate and I trade cooking chores. If I work late my love orders food…lol. We both study Dhamma together and discuss what insights we've had during our day. We spend the rest of the time sharing daily events and doing our household chores together. Around 9pm I go and meditate for about an hour and work on my art until mid-night. When I meditate in the evening I usually sit on the couch cross legged with my back very straight and start with anapanasati the focus is on sensation around my nose and upper lip until the lights, bliss, expansion (awareness that goes beyond body sensations) comes up. If they don't come up I scan my body to even out sensations and watch for more subtle sensations that come up and pass away. When more subtle sensations do come up and pass away I focus on them and try to find even more subtle sensations and this goes on and on until I can't find any more sensation because they have become to subtle for me to focus on and the association with the body fades away. I go into an area where time doesn't matter, there are no lights to play with, no expansion or feeling like the body is breathing or breath has stilled or gone totally away. I don't notice any of the physical stuff and sitting is like being glued to the ground. The sharpness of the mind during and afterthis kind of meditation is very keen and bright no confusion at all. It is like relaxing back and just resting. If I am ill like with cold I will focus on the sore spots in my throat and watch sensations like sneezes or coughs come up and I will not sneeze or cough and the sensation will usually bounce around the nerves in the infected area causing me to tear up and I feel the need to cough or move, I don't and I watch them pass. I try to stay quite physically and mentally the aggressive painful sensations will fade away and so will the infection. Sometimes when I focus on the sore area the pain will bounce around and spread out to different areas of the body like something is living in that area and it wants to get away from the focused attention of the mind. Usually it's very painful to watch but if I hold tight and don't move it passes away and so does the infection. Sometimes I can't get a good focus on the area that hurts and I will get sick that happened to me this month because I become tired and didn't rest enough. At times when I work my way through the body just lightly touching the surface of the skin I will sink past surface sensations and scan my internal organs, bones, nerves, and muscles. I can actually hear the blood coursing through my veins and arteries. When I deep scan sensation will spread out like ink dropped in a glass of water as it spreads out the body feels like it is expanding and contracting and my breath goes away. The vibration is very fine and covers the surface of my skin like a glove covers a hand. During this meditation if I place the mind at the top of my head it will flow down the body like water that's pored over a rock. Contentment is the residue that is left after this kind of meditation is over. When this ends I try to take the residue of awareness with me because I feel very light and alert afterwards. Sitting is easy and I can do three hours a sit, but I don't have that kind of time right now. Early this year I could sit all day if I wanted to but right now there is very little time for sitting meditation so I try and take it my awareness meditation through out my day and into sleep. Sleep starts calling at midnight and there are more cuddles with my love, hugs and kisses and off to sleep I go. Before I go to sleep I watch my breath for a few minutes while I am on my back and view the lights behind my eyes. At this time of the day the play of light is grainy like a TV with no reception, just a fine blur of vibration of with no patterns or design to it. When this kind of grainy light shows up I also have ringing in my ears that matches the frequency of the surface of the skins vibrations and the movement of the lights behind my eyelids. I ride the breath during this meditation and see where it takes me as I watch the grainy lights behind my closed eyelids dance. Sometimes the lights turn into pictures and if they do I have to work really hard to stay awake, it's easy to fall into the sleep when the light starts forming shapes. I watch the flow of darkness and light that also brings sensations of expansion or being physically light or heavy of body. Towards the end of this meditation before I fall to sleep I feel like I am flying through space and I'm very far from the body, there is no thoughts or other things coming and going just a subtle sensation of moving forward. Maybe it is because colors can blossom getting bigger and bigger until they cover the whole field of vision behind my closed eyelids. Usually within 10 minutes I forget myself and wake up and it's morning and time to begin a new day nice and fresh. Sometimes when I can't sleep I can do anapanasati all night and I still get up with enough energy to make it through the day. I found if you don't struggle against no sleeping and just let the body rest in bed you will have enough energy to function. Sometimes if I am very restless during the night I will place the calm mind on the center of my palms and the center of my feet and also the top of my head. My teachers told me this helps bring calmness to the body too. My diet consists mainly of whole foods, lots of veggies and fruit for snacks plus I have some kind of protein during the day like eggs, cheese or lean meat. I avoid finally ground grain because it clogs up my lungs and my body gets bloated. I don't need much to eat, just small snacks like fruit and nuts during the day and a larger meal for lunch or dinner. Once or twice a month we go out to the movies or hang out with friends and have a nice dinner with some really good red wine. When I go on retreats I only eat one or two times and day, the vipassana retreats only serve vegetarian meals, which seem to make sitting much easier. I don't like to drink water so I carry a water bottle around to remind me that I must have water and sip it through out the day. I also walk two miles a day to and from work I sold my car because public transportation is easier and cheaper to use in a big city. I feel I am helping the environment and my body/mind by walking and also I am saving a lot of money. When my schedule isn't so busy I swim three times a week and lift weights four times a week. I have a gym in the building where I work, which is very nice. During lunch I can do some weight work, which helps keep muscle mass up and adipose tissue down and seems to even out my moods too during the down cycle of the month. Right now I only have time for yoga once a week, walking an hour a day (back and forth to work) and 1/2 an hour weight lifting four times a week during lunch breaks. Saturday I work on my paintings, read and hang out with my friends and take long walks with my best friend, holding hands with your love is a great meditation lots of lovely sensations to watch come and go. I usually don't do a formal meditation on Saturday just the general light awareness of sensations, thoughts, emotions, and listening. On Sunday I go to a group meditation and also yoga class. Then I go off to work a couple hours as hostess with the mostest at my friends restaurant and by 8pm I'm home and then I do chores to get ready for the coming week. The ritual begins all over again… With Metta, Lisa 44713 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:51am Subject: Re: anusayas. buddhistmedi... Hi Phil and other DSG members - You never fail to come up with great questions, Phil! Your teacher (assuming you have one) must be delighted by your questions and sincere answers. >Tep: <1> How do you "see" anusayas with right understanding > since, unlike the five clinging aggregates, they do not arise > for you to see them? Phil: But we can only think about them, and speculate, and obviously >we are thinking about them through a thick cloud of ignorance. > We can say "panna will know" - it is an easy way to answer > these questions, but I think it's true, don't you? > Faith in the Buddha's teaching tells me so. >We will know real urgency as our wisdom develops, or we won't. T: After emailing you with the above question <1>, I thought it over. I believe the answer is: we should instead observe sensations (vedana) as the one-to-one corresponding variables. That is, raga- nusaya, patigha-nusaya and avijja-nusaya correspond to sukha- vedana, dukkha-vedana and adukkha-ma-sukha-vedana, respectively. Vedananupassana Satipatthana is the tool. "With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one relishes it, welcomes it, or remains fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession gets obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats one's breast, becomes distraught, then one's resistance-obsession gets obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance- obsession gets obsessed. That a person -- without abandoning passion-obsession with regard to a feeling of pleasure, without abolishing resistance-obsession with regard to a feeling of pain, without uprooting ignorance-obsession with regard to a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, without abandoning ignorance and giving rise to clear knowing -- would put an end to suffering & stress in the here & now: such a thing isn't possible". [MN 148, Chachakka Sutta] --------------------------------- > Phil: What is your motivation to study Dhamma? Is it really to > escape from samsara? If I'm honest with myself, I can't say so. > I am enjoying life so much these days. Of course enlightened > people can enjoy life too, but... T: Death, Phil, is my motivation. As every day is rapidly passing by, I am moving with the same speed toward my last day. Thinking of death, I feel like my hair and clothes are burning, so to speak. ----------------------------------- > Phil: I think of the many suttas in which the Buddha warns that he > who "seeks delight...seeks suffering." (I sometimes think that > enlightened people can "find delight" in an innocuous way > without the unwholesomeness of seeking it.) As long as I am > seeking delight as much as I do, I cannot speak of urgency. T: Precisely! ------------------------------------- Respectfully, Tep May your persistence be aroused and not lax; your mindfulness established and not confused; your body calm and not aroused; your mind centered and unified. AN III.40: Adhipateyya Sutta ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hi Tep, and all > > > Again, this was referring to a sotapanna, if I recall correctly. I > am always doubtful about urgency for wordlings. Isn't urgency more > often conditioned by fear than by right understanding? My usual > pattern is to become complacent when things are going well, with > suddent bouts of urgency when things are not going well. That is not > the way true urgency (samvega) should be, I imagine. I don't know > yet what real samvega is, only pseudo samvega, which is really about > self struggling to find something reassuring to hold on to, I guess. > > We will know real urgency as our wisdom develops, or we won't. > 44714 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:26am Subject: [dsg] Re:Breathing. - Message # 27400 buddhistmedi... Hi James - Thank you very much for the vote of confidence. This anapanasati subject is tough and there is much more for me to learn as well as more mistakes to make. Please help me make the Anapanasati Discussion, Part II useful and end with a soft landing. Sincerely, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > > (snipped) > You explain this very well. Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu! > > Metta, > James 44715 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 11:58am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too lbidd2 Hi Twp, One thing to consider is that breath can be an object of either satipatthana or jhana. For that reason I think one has to decide which way one wants to go because they end up in completely different places. Htoo said satipatthana moves one into the present. The present is where reality is found. Or, to put it another way, reality is where the present is found. This isn't intellectual understanding. It is experience. In the consciousness that experiences reality there is no desire, no self view, and no opinions of any kind. This consciousness is perfectly at-home in any situation. In jhana, one wants to avoid the present because it is so changeable. Even when experiencing the jhana factors one wants to keep the nimitta close, guarding it and not letting it slip away. Of course in jhana there is also no desire, no self view, no opinions but one must be very careful about touching reality. If one wants to develop samatha and vipassana together one could take concept (illusion) as the object of insight. So, in the case of anapanasati, the three objects are hardness of breath for satipatthana, a sign of breath for jhana, and "breathing" for samatha/vipassana. This last bit is just my idea :-)) Larry 44716 From: "Lisa" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:59pm Subject: Re: Asankhata foamflowers > Now, what about the other nine perceptions in AN X.60? > > > Sincerely yours, > > > Tep > > May your persistence be aroused and not lax; your mindfulness > established and not confused; your body calm and not aroused; > your mind centered and unified. AN III.40: Adhipateyya Sutta > ======== Anguttara Nikaya X.60 Girimananda Sutta Hi Tep, There is much to ponder on here! [1] "And what is the perception of inconstancy? There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- reflects thus: 'Form is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, fabrications are inconstant, consciousness is inconstant.' Thus he remains focused on inconstancy with regard to the five aggregates. This, Ananda, is called the perception of inconstancy." Lisa says: The perception of inconstancy, that which is dependent on other to be will never be in and of itself but always rely on something else to define itself and that causes inconstancy when seeing reality as it is. It is like seeing through layers of gauze when you look through dependent relationships. Viewing this kind of relationship I understand that feelings are inconsistent because they are dependent on my reactions to sensations to become. Perception is inconsistent because it is depends on sense organs and the brain to become. Fabrications: what does that mean, what is the pali word? Does it mean imagination, to imagine that things are independent? Conceptual play, building on thoughts? What I imagine to be real causes inconsistency because they depend on the thought construction to become. Consciousness depends on the eye, the nose, the ear, the feelings, the emotions, and the thoughts to become and all these things are also dependent on other things to become and so the inconstancy continues. If I think this is reality in and of itself and hold onto it as me and mine or not me or mine, when all of this is just dependent relationships and nothing else. Also included in this investigation I ran into the five aggregates, the physical being (rupa); sensation (vedanaa); conception (sanjna); volition (samskara); and consciousness (vijnana).As oposed to the real self. How can many make up one being anyway? ( I had to look up fabrications and that is one of the ten perceptions) the perception of the undesirability of all fabrications, THE THREE MANNANA Mannana means mental images, daydreams, psychological needs unrealistic assumption, egotistic opinion or judgment, imagination as in unrealistic idea or notion, mental image, or pretending to be some one you are not. Ignorant reaction to internal created perception of external sensory experiences that cause mental disorders. 1.tanha-mannana: unrestrained imagination through lust that is craving for the sensual. 2.mana-mannana: unrestrained imagination through conceit; 3.ditthi-mannana: unrestrained imagination through mistaken beliefs. These three kinds of unrestrained imagination or fantasy are also called the three Gahas, or three Holds, to explain their ability to bind tightly. All of this fabrication breeds even more mistakes through actions and thought and it builds up to the point in which we become overwhelmed and our ability to see reality as it is becomes lost in mental fabrication. I also found the words called the three Papancas or Three Multipliers related to this subject. the perception of the undesirability of all fabrications, the perception of not-self, the perception of unattractiveness, the perception of drawbacks, the perception of abandoning, the perception of dispassion, the perception of cessation, the perception of distaste for every world, mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. With Metta, Lisa 44717 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 3:49pm Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) philofillet Hi James Thanks for waiting. Picking up where I left off... > > Phil: We in the west are conditioned from childhood to carve out > remarkable lives, to be individualistic, to be independent, to be > self-reliant. I think we are prone to have very strong > self-identities, much stronger, in general, than Asians. > > James: This is a matter of perspective. From my perspective, Asians > tend to have a self-identification based on group membership, but it > is still a strong self-identification. Ph: Yes, the group membership thing, exactly. Self-identity atrophies by cultural pressures. I can't speak for South-East Asia but only East Asia (ie Japan and Korea) based not only on my 10 years here but also an interesting book "The Geography of Thought" in which a Harvard prof survers research on the topic. The conculsions of hundreds of studies is pertty convincing. East Asians tend to indentify themselves in terms of relations with others and stress blending harmoniously into groups. Westerners value individual differences and define themselves in such terms. This is no news, really. It's a cliche that is borne out by this research. But I think it has important implications for the way people approach Dhamma and the errors they can fall into. As I said above, I suspect that Dhamma becomes more of a way of defining and shaping one lifetime rather than eradicating/wiping out identity view. I know in my case if I am honest with myself, at this point I would have to say that Dhamma is a way for me to make my life richer, add meaning to my life, to this one lifetime. If you can say elsewise, with full honestly, you have a better motivation to meditate formally than I possibly could. Thus I appreciate the emphasis this group's founders place on right view. And patience. I think it is very helpful for people who would go down the wrong path if they applied themselves too intentionally to trying to cultivate mindfulness by following instructions. One thing that struck me on one of the talks I listened to was when a fe3llow (Kom?) said that when he started listening to Kh Sujin's talk he was struck by the phrase "vijja doesn't come from avijja" which I gather means "knowledge/understanding doesn't come from ignorance." I'm not sure if I understand what it means, and please someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if we start going to meditation centers, for example, when we are so thickly clouded in ignorance, what can the meditation possibly bring. I think the usual idea is that we sit down in fronbt of the thick curtain of ignorance and try to bore our way through it by applying concentration. I can see why people think this is the way to go, but is it? I see moments of understanding, of being moved beyond the curtain of ignorance momentarily before the understanding falls away as more helpful in the long run. A small moment of piercing the curtain does more in the long run to take down the curtain that bearing down on it with full force. > Phil: I know you've heard this a thousand times before, but I really > think it's true - when we seek techniques and expect results from them > we are operating in a deluded belief that there is a self that can > control cittas - and this is contrary to the teaching that makes the > Buddha unique, the teaching of anatta. > > James: I would be quite willing to accept this perspective if, and > only if, the Buddha taught this. Quote to me where the Buddha taught > this and you will have a convert! Ph: I think the "crossing the flood" sutta (first one in Samyutta Nikaya) gets at this. When we press too hard, strain to get results, we are swet away. If we are negligent and don't apply ourselves at all, we sink. This very subtle point is so important. If you spend a few hours soaking up suttas in khandasamyutta or salayatanasamyutta. reading and reflecting on khandas and the sense bases, you come away steeped in wisdom re the uncontrollability of things - at least I do. We may have different acculations re seeing into the chrateristics of dhammas. Perhaps you have an accumulated understanding of dukkha, so you can have more urgency. Perhaps I have more of an appreciation for anatta, so tend towards patience. Sheer conjecture. And I stress that being patient doesn't mean being passive. We become more sensitive to the truth that moments of mindfulness condition more of the same. I am confident that I am being moved in the right direction - I am not sinking, even as I am not straining too hard. For some reason, I ahve always valued patience. "In patience shall ye possess your soul " (a line from Matthew) has been my motto for about 20 years now, ever since I started to get into "spiritual" endeavours. Again, accumulations from past lives? As for myself, I don't find the > Buddha teaching this at all!! Am I stupid? Did I miss it? I find > the Buddha teaching over and over about concentrated effort to develop > the mind with him giving specific and general instructions. The > Satipatthana Sutta is a very long "How To" discourse on mindfulness- > including techniques and tips (it even includes a timetable of > expected results). To view the Satipatthana Sutta as simply > descriptive of saintly monks and not prescriptive for anyone wishing > to practice mindfulness, as some in this group do, lacks common sense. See above. If people without right understanding apply themlves to those explicit intstructions, will understanding arise from it? I suspect not. The ignorance will just get "thicker" if you will. You will disagree strongly with that statement, and probably consider it blasphemous and worthy of a rebirth in hell. And you know, I appreciate your warnings. I am not closing my mind to what you say. That is why I value these letters, and they are more important that just rambling. > > Phil: If you could write anything that would inspire me towards a more > intentional approach towards developing mindfulness, I would be glad > to hear of it. > > James: Phil, what can I say? Ph: I ahve an intersting story from yesterday. Soon after posting about reflection on the body parts, I cut myself while shaving. Do you know sometimes how you just get a nick, but in certain places it just won't stop bleeding. It happens to me about once a year. It was a lovely day but as I walked to the statin I was so pissed off about this bleeding lip, holding a tissue to it, fretting that it would keep bleeding while I was trying to teach my class. Such a tiny thing, it would seem, but it really irritated me. And it made me reflect on the way form is murderous of the other khandas, how the body and all its various juices really rule us much more than we want to know. So your suggestion helped. The passage you suggested is to be used for reflection on the foulness of the body, according to the sub-head in Bhikkhu Bodhi's anthology. So a more specific purpose than general mindfulness. Anyways, thanks again. You have been reading all of those > writings from Nina, K. Sujin, and listening to those tapes over and > over again, what could I say to reverse all of that conditioning? In > essence, you have been brainwashed- but you did it to yourself. Ph: Yes, brainwashed is a term I have thought of before. One day I read a passage from a post and thought "wow, Nina really puts things well" but then I realized I had written the post. Reading so much of Nina had made me sound like Nina! This *is* a kind of brainwashing. Some people call it parroting, a term I don't like. We repeat valued passages, or teachings, or whatver, again and again, internalize them. You're right, there is strong conditioning there. Fortunately, it is helpfing me to cultivate right understanding. I say that with confidence, but I appreciate your warning. One thing you could do to help me, if you're concenred, is tell me more about how mindfulness arises in your daily life. I know you say that you decided to not to post about daily life because of reaction to your posts in the past or something, but until you tell me more about your mindfulness in daily life, you will remain a bit of a fundamentalist scold to me. Yes, trust the Buddha's word, but also trust examined daily life experience. That's why I enjoy NIna's books. The Buddha's word in the context of daily life. That's what it's all about for me. I don't know enough about your daily life to be deeply impressed by what you say, but I respect your decsion to keep it to yourself. > can tell you to do is to try and see the big picture: The philosophy > of K. Sujin and her followers runs contrary to 2,500 years of Buddhist > practice- practice based on specific and purposeful acts of dana, > mindfulness, meditation, and renunciation. Ph: I guess you missed my posts in which I shared passages from Kh Sujin's Deeds of Merit. Somewhere I read from her that if we don't understand sila and dana, we can't cultivate panna. I think you are under-appreciating the importance she places on dana and sila. I like what Nina said about renunciation. There is renunciation with every moment of kusala, because we are not thinking about satisfying our own needs. Is that bad Dhamma? The teaching of K. Sujin > runs contrary to the purpose and philosophy of the Bhikkhu/Bhikkhuni > Sangha. When you buy into this philosophy, you are not becoming a > self-reliant Buddhist with the dhamma as your guide; you are becoming > a cult member with the vision of a Thai worldling as your guide. As > Howard writes, the teaching of K. Sujin is "idiosyncratic"; I would go > even farther: it is downright dangerous! For your own sake, abandon > it before it is too late! (I know this response is blunt and may turn > you off, but, as you accurately comment earlier, I don't do > `diplomacy' ;-)) Ph: I appreciate it, James. I know you deeply care about Dhamma. When you see Kh Sujin's teaching, you see something as wrong as I see in Soka Gakkai, for example. I know how I used to fret about how Soka Gakkai was depriving Japanese people of the benefits of Dhamma. I know how deeply you care. James, may I propose that we keep our exchange to once a week. When you get back to me, I will hold my response until my day off. (Thursdays) Our exchange is important, but these are long letters with an awful lot of rambling (especially on my part) and conjecture and just taking in conventional terms since we can't share the Abhidhamma approach. Thanks again for being a good friend in Dhamma. Metta, Phil 44718 From: "Philip" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:03pm Subject: Re: anusayas. philofillet Hi Tep and all thanks as always for your kind words. > T: After emailing you with the above question <1>, I thought it over. I > believe the answer is: we should instead observe sensations > (vedana) as the one-to-one corresponding variables. Ph: You're right in that vedana seems to me to be the most predominant of the khandas. We can experience our feelings, sensations relatively easily compared to moments of bare consciousness. But I still haven't figured out my intellectualunderstandinig of vedana. What is rupa and what is nama of feeling? But I appreciate your pointer toward vedana. I am now reading salayatanasamyutta and next comese vedanasamyutta. Mayne people here love the sutta about seeing feeling come and go as clouds in the sky, blwomn this way and that. But it might not be as easy to observe feelings as we think. Certainly not for me. I have a lot of questions about feeling that haen't come up yet. > > Phil: What is your motivation to study Dhamma? Is it really to > > escape from samsara? If I'm honest with myself, I can't say so. > > I am enjoying life so much these days. Of course enlightened > > people can enjoy life too, but... > > T: Death, Phil, is my motivation. As every day is rapidly passing by, I > am moving with the same speed toward my last day. Thinking of > death, I feel like my hair and clothes are burning, so to speak. Ph: I think awareness of death is the motivation that gets so many people, including me, started out on "spiritual" endeavours. But I wonder if the fear of death doesn't sometimes contain wrong view, because it is all about clinging to one's one lifetime. If there is right understanding that this one lifetime is valuable becuase we are human with the rare opportunity to study dhamma, there is right understanding, but isn't it usually more often "I don't wnna die! I don't wanna stop being me! I don't wanna lose my loved ones!" Will that kind of sorrow and fear necessarily lead to right understanding? I've come to appreciate (only intellectually) death in every moment. Each moment we are falling apart and coming back together again. I want to be grateful for this human life, for the opportunity to study Dhamma, but I think there may countless lifetimes until "I" find enlightenment. Metta, Phil 44719 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asankhata lbidd2 Hi Lisa, Welcome to the group from me. I have a comment on one word you used below: Lisa: "The perception of inconstancy, that which is dependent on other to be will never be in and of itself but always rely on something else to define itself and that causes inconstancy when seeing reality as it is. It is like seeing through layers of gauze when you look through dependent relationships." Larry: This idea of defining a dhamma by other dhammas ties in with something I've been thinking about with regard to the difference between the views of Nagarjuna, a Mahayana philosopher, and abhidhamma or the suttas. I expect Nagarjuna would agree with you but abhidhamma would have a qualm. We, as ordinary ignorant beings, often and usually do define one dhamma with another dhamma or combine many dhammas into one, but right view is to see that a dhamma is only just what it is. As the Satipatthana Sutta says, "the body in the body". I think inconstancy is just impermanence. Also you had a question about what the word "fabrications" referred to. I think it's probably "sankhara", often translated as "formations". I think a better translation would be "fabricators" or "formers". The primary examples are desire and intention. Desire fabricates or causes kamma result, proliferates mental and physical activity, and accumulates as habit and latent tendency. In a literal sense a "formation" or combination of dhammas isn't a reality. If it were, chariots and persons would be real. Larry 44720 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:44pm Subject: Vism.XIV,154 Vism.XIV,155 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 154. (xxxii)-(xxxiii) 'Compassion' and 'gladness' should be understood as given in the Description of the Divine Abodes (Ch.IX,92,94,95), except that those are of the fine-material sphere and have attained to absorption, while these are of the sense sphere. This is the only difference. Some, however, want to include among the inconstant both lovingkindness and equanimity. That cannot be accepted for, as to meaning, non-hate itself is lovingkindness, and specific neutrality is equanimity. 155. (xxxiv)-(xxxvi) 'Abstinence from bodily misconduct': the compound kaayaduccaritavirati resolves as kaayaduccaritato virati; so also with the other two. But as regards characteristic, etc., these three have the characteristic of non-transgression in the respective fields of bodily conduct, etc.; they have the characteristic of not treading there, is what is said. Their function is to draw back from the fields of bodily misconduct, and so on. They are manifested as the not doing of these things. Their proximate causes are the special qualities of faith, conscience, shame, fewness of wishes, and so on. They should be regarded as the mind's averseness from evil-doing. 44721 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 7:13pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,154 Vism.XIV,155 buddhistmedi... Hi Larry - I am interested in the non-transgression charateristic of the 'abstinence from bodily misconduct' (kaayaduccaritavirati ) -- the Commentary sounds as if this mind's averseness from evil-doing is permanent. But since it is just a sankhata dhamma, it has to fall away sooner or later. Therefore, in order to make kaayaduccaritavirati look permanent (not treading), is it necessary that the monk has to constantly condition the "proximate causes" (faith, conscience, shame, fewness of wishes, and so on) such that they continue to arise all the time? But such effort must be very demanding. If my questions don't make sense to you, just tell me so. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > (Snipped). > > 155. (xxxiv)-(xxxvi) 'Abstinence from bodily misconduct': the compound kaayaduccaritavirati resolves as kaayaduccaritato virati; so also with the other two. But as regards characteristic, etc., these three have the characteristic of non-transgression in the respective fields of bodily conduct, etc.; they have the characteristic of not treading there, is what is said. Their function is to draw back from the fields of bodily > misconduct, and so on. They are manifested as the not doing of these > things. Their proximate causes are the special qualities of faith, > conscience, shame, fewness of wishes, and so on. They should be regarded > as the mind's averseness from evil-doing. 44722 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,154 Vism.XIV,155 lbidd2 Tep: "the Commentary sounds as if this mind's averseness from evil-doing is permanent." Hi Tep, The wording in this paragraph is a little confusing. It refers to the three abstinence cetasikas: abstinence from wrong conduct by way of speech, action, and livelihood. The CMA says , "the viratis [abstinences] are operative only on an occasion when one intentionally refrains from a wrong mode of conduct for which an opportunity has arisen". So I guess it would be something like not stepping on a bug that crosses your path or not taking what isn't given. When the situation arises there is the sense of the right thing to do; maybe it's conscience or scruples. These cetasikas can accumulate and become habitual. Nina will have a full explanation in a few days. Larry 44723 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 0:38am Subject: Kangaroos, Re-birth and racial/ethnic identification christine_fo... Hello from Cairns, I'm staying with Azita tonight before flying back to Brisbane tomorrow. It has been a lovely few days, seeing Tom, Shakti, and Azita. Lots of dhamma discussion and reflection. Yesterday Azita had to work, and the rest of us visited Tjapukai Aboriginal Cultural Park. We watched some spectacular dancing, listened to singing and didgeridoo playing, learned to throw a boomerang, and to throw spears using a woomera. (May I just modestly mention that I, and I alone, managed to hit a kangaroo with the spear - or rather the Outline of a kangaroo on the target board; and we learned the fascinating and useful hint that when one is hunting kangaroo, one should always carry two spears. Ease the first one under your arm so it carries the scent of your perspiration - cast this spear past your chosen quarry. It (the chosen quarry) will smell the human scent and will hop away from the source on the decoy spear i.e. towards you... then you use your second spear to ... you know ... I suppose ... break the first precept. oh. well.:-() After all the above, we were ushered into an sudio visual presentation from the aborigianal perspective of what happened when the modern world descended upon an ancient culture. It conditioned reflections on what use is there to hold to a national, cultural or ethnic identity as "I", "Me" or "Mine"? For those who accept literal re-birth of the mental continuum, and the fact that the Buddha taught Human rebirth so such a rare, rare event - the last rebirth was more than likely in a form other than human. If, hypothetically, of the last 10 rebirths, five could have been as a fruit fly, two as a salmon, one as a female human in Scotland, one as a Golden Labrador, and the last one as a frigate bird - then why should one be hurt or incensed because the continuum arose this time as a member of an ethnic group whose ancestors suffered oppression? metta and peace, Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 44724 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:33pm Subject: Five times Five ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Five Crucial Core Buddhist Categories: There are five Mental Abilities: Faith, Energy, Awareness, Concentration & Understanding. There are five Rules of Training: Not Killing any being, Not Stealing, Not Lying, Not Sexually Abusing, Not Drinking Alcohol. There are five Clusters of Clinging to: Form, Feeling, Perception, Construction & Consciousness. There are five Mental Hindrances: Sense-Desire, Ill-Will, Lethargy & Laziness, Regret & Restlessness and Doubt & Uncertainty. There are five Destinies right after Death: Hell, Animal Womb, Hungry Ghost, Human Being & Deity. Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 33 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44725 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Cetasikas' study corner 171 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (b) dacostacharles Dear Dan, I don't see the real difference between {"Do these things in order to get these results" rather than "When these things are done, these things result."} The way I see it, if you do either with the right understanding and effort, the results will be the same (i.e., success). Do either with the wrong understanding or effort, the results will be the same (i.e., failure). I think you are getting so caught up in both, a no-I and things arise from conditions, that you are missing the point; therefore you would not succeed. "You" have to look at the sutras as a prescription and the "doing" as the medicine. So yes, "you" must follow the prescription (instructions) in-order for the sense of self and suffering to fade away (get old and die). CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan D. <..> Interesting passages from "Cetasikas" and Vism: > The Visuddhimagga (IV, 63) explains how there can be a greater > sense of urgency and how the mind should be encouraged. We > read: > * > "How does he encourage the mind on an occasion when it should be > encouraged? When his mind is listless owing to sluggishness in the > exercise of understanding or to failure to attain the bliss of peace, > then he should stimulate it by reviewing the eight grounds for a sense > of urgency. "Should be encouraged" and "should stimulate it by reviewing" sound an awful lot like instructions, do they not? "Do these things in order to get these results" rather than "When these things are done, these things result." In the first case, there is a sense of "I must do; I am doing"--moha; in the latter case, there is a sense of "These results arose from these conditions"--amoha. "Shoulds" are dangerous traps. 44726 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comparing ... Conceit dacostacharles Conceit does not mean the same thing in English and the English translation of the Buddha's teachings. ----- Original Message ----- From: Christine Forsyth <...> I was discussing Conceit recently - and understand that the Buddha's teaching is that any comparison is a form of conceit, whether superior inferior or equal, as opposed to the everyday version that Conceit is 'blowing one's own trumpet'about one's achievments, successes or status. But after yesterday,it has occurred to me that sometimes making comparisons may be beneficial. <....> 44727 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comparing ... Conceit dacostacharles Dear Christine, Comparisons effect ideas. The Buddha spoke against comparisons because (I think, he was getting tired of) people were getting caught up in-comparing the different teachers of the day. And some were losing sight of what is really important (ref: the Kalama sutra). So the conceit arises do to a type of comparison, not all. The Buddha constantly compared what is considered good and bad (sense of morality). CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom <...>, Thank you for your well written reminder. Now, this is not the conceited way of comparing. It is like in the suttas, someone going to the charnel field and seeing a corpse: just as that body so will this body be. It is just a reminder of the truth. Nina. op 17-04-2005 04:26 schreef Christine Forsyth op cforsyth1@...: > this person had started out just like me, to go to > the city for shopping, with no thought that this was their dying > day ...just like me. And just as he is, so shall I be ... > > Perhaps not all comparisons are odious <...> 44728 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 175 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (f) dacostacharles Hi, For some, the "desire for enlightenment" is rooted in the right understanding throughout all moments. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott <..> 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== When one has just started to develop satipaììhåna, sati does not often arise. One may wonder how many years it will take before there can be any progress. When we think of the goal with desire or when we are afraid of failure there is akusala citta. We may not notice that there is any progress, but even if there is sometimes one moment of mindfulness of a reality appearing through one of the six doors, right understanding can develop little by little. Sati which arises falls away, but it is never lost, it conditions the arising again of sati later on. Instead of having desire for enlightenment we should see the value of right understanding at this moment. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== <...> 44729 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Attainments dacostacharles It takes the U and 3Ps (even for lay folks): Understanding, and Practice, Practice, Practice. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: kelvin_lwin <..> Hi Evan, As long as the teachings are still available and understood it's still possible. Even if it's not there will always be pacceka- buddhas. > 1. Are there any monks in this time (in the past 100 years say) > that have attained arahantship or any of the other supramundane > attainments? yes, many practice and the most successful ones are the ones who are completely unknown. > 2. Are there any lay people who have attained to any of the fruits > and knowledge of the path? yes, http://www.vri.dhamma.org/newsletters/nl9811.html > 3. Are there any monks who easily attain jhana and/or insight > knowledges? many > 4. Are there any lay people who easily attain jhana and/or insight > knowledges? if one is devoted enough or have sufficient paramis then why not? - kel <...> 44730 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:49am Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assis ting the Hunte r?= sarahprocter... Hi Howard, I hope I'm not too late to also wish you a good trip with your family and a happy birthday tomorrow. Thank you for your good wishes to us in advance. To be honest, Jon's rather partial to the Disney scary rides, like 'Big Mountain'....maybe after Hong Kong Disney opens at the end of the year, we'll find an excuse as it's a long time since we 'did' the West coast inc Disney:-) Meanwhile, we'll be meeting for a bowl of lunch-time noodles(his favourite)for Jon and the beach for me next week. Just more momentary namas and rupas that we build such long stories about.... --- upasaka@... wrote: ... > I've been having some computer problems recently, Sarah and have > wanted to cut down on list participation anyway with more time spent on > (what I > call ;-) "practice". ... S: ;-) Meanwhile, as Nina says, let us know about your "practice" on the rides with baby Sarah... and enjoy the family time together. Perhaps you'll be able to check in sometime. Otherwise, look forward to hearing from you on return. Thank you again for your comments and reflections on the Hunter thread. Metta, Sarah ========= 44731 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 Â?ELivelihood & Assis ting the Hunte r?= upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 4/24/05 7:50:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I hope I'm not too late to also wish you a good trip with your family and > a happy birthday tomorrow. ----------------------------------- Howard: Thanks! You're very much in time - we don't leave for the airport until three and a quarter hours from now. ------------------------------------ Thank you for your good wishes to us in> > advance. To be honest, Jon's rather partial to the Disney scary rides, > like 'Big Mountain'....maybe after Hong Kong Disney opens at the end of > the year, we'll find an excuse as it's a long time since we 'did' the West > coast inc Disney:-) > ----------------------------------- Howard: I like them too. The comparable one (I presume) at Disney World (in Orlando, Florida) is called Space Mountain. What we like most, though, is everything at the Epcot theme park there, which has attractions from many nations and also has wonderful science sites. ----------------------------------- Meanwhile, we'll be meeting for a bowl of lunch-time> > noodles(his favourite) for Jon and the beach for me next week. ---------------------------------- Howard: Sounds great to me! ---------------------------------- > > Just more momentary namas and rupas that we build such long stories > about.... > ---------------------------------- Howard: Sarah, I KNOW you just threw that in so that the post becomes "proper" for a Buddhist list!! ;-)) ---------------------------------- > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > ... > > I've been having some computer problems recently, Sarah and have > >wanted to cut down on list participation anyway with more time spent on > >(what I > >call ;-) "practice". > ... > S: ;-) Meanwhile, as Nina says, let us know about your "practice" on the > rides with baby Sarah... and enjoy the family time together. > ---------------------------------- Howard: :-) ----------------------------------- > > Perhaps you'll be able to check in sometime. Otherwise, look forward to > hearing from you on return. > > Thank you again for your comments and reflections on the Hunter thread. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 44732 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma jonabbott@... Hi Evan This post of yours was sent some time ago. Apologies for the delay in replying (and also to other members for the late replies to their posts). Evan Stamatopoulos wrote: > The reason I recanted is that there are many objects that can be used as > a kasina for practice which leads to the jhanas. The Buddha taught > meditation on the breath as the most important but he also taught the > use of earth, water etc as kasinas. I don't think he taught the use of a > manta but I could see that is could be used. I would agree that a mantra could aid the development of concentration, but I don't believe it would lead to jhana. I'll try to explain what I mean by this. Jhana is the outcome or culmination of the development of samatha consciousness. Samatha ('tranquillity', 'calm') is a particular kind of kusala performed through the mind-door (that is, there is no accompanying speech or bodily action required). For example, metta and karuna -- genuine friendliness and compassion, spontaneously arisen, towards another being -- are an example of samatha. Now the *development* (bhavana) of samatha implies something more that simply the accumulation of such moments of samatha. The development of metta, or any kind of samatha, to high levels of absorption requires the arising of panna also, panna that sees the value of this particular kind of kusala and the danger in akusala as conditioned by sense-door experiences. Without panna there is only the accumulation of the tendency/quality of metta, but no degree of absorption. In the case of the kasinas, the kusala in question will lie in the way in which the kasina is contemplated. Put simply, there is nothing intrinsically kusala about paying attention to a kasina. There has to be more to it than that. There are details in the texts for those who are interested. The texts seem to suggest that only the objects enumerated by the Buddha in the suttas can support jhana or absorption approaching that. Now while it is no doubt possible to suggest ways in which a mantra or other 'neutral object' (such as a sequence of numbers) could be the object of kusala consciousness, they are not objects the contemplation of which is a condition for panna (of the samatha kind) to arise. As I said in another post recently, (mere) concentration on an object is not itself morally skilful, and even where the object of one's concentration is a 'wholesome' object this is no guarantee that the consciousness will be kusala. While concentration on a neutral object can lead to states that seem to match the description of samatha/jhana in the texts, the concentration is unlikely to be kusala unless the consciousness has been kusala from the outset. This is an area where one's own experience is a notoriously unreliable guide. Jon 44733 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: (Vipassana) The Brain on Dhamma jonabbott@... Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >> Thanks for sharing your own experiences. >> As you know, I place considerable importance on the scriptural basis >> of things. I know of no support in the texts for the idea that >> concentration on a neutral object leads to kusala, so I'd be >> interested to hear of any references that you or others may know of. > > ======================== > You may recall from a long time back our "spiral" discussions. > There was a chain of conditions, with calm a condition for > concentration and concentration a condition for wisdom, and you may > recall how the chain is really a spiral, with each factor, ever > enhanced, feeding back to strengthen the "earlier ones", and that > includes concentration supporting an increase in calm. Yes, I do indeed recall that discussion. I can see the basis for what you describe here. As samatha (calm) is developed, concentration increases. That concentration is of course kusala concentration, since calm is a kusala quality. But this is not the same as saying concentration leads to calm. Concentration itself is not inherently kusala. Concentration is kusala if and only if it accompanies kusala citta. > Also, Jon, concentration is a major condition for attaining the jhanas > (characterized by increasing calm - that, BTWm is why it is called > "samatha bhavana"! ;-). Again, the concentration that is a major factor in the jhanas is the concentration that results from the development of (the kusala quality of) calm. > Moreover, Jon, from first-hand knowledge, I know that sustained > concentration on neutral or pleasant object unquestionably induces > calm - there is no more doubt of that than there is of the inability > to breathe leading to distress, or lack of food leading to hunger. But unless are you have a highly developed ability to tell the difference between true calm and subtle clinging (accompanied by neutral feeling), there is always the danger that what appears to be calm may in fact be attachment. > As to concentration on a neutral object leading to kusala, well, > there certainly is textual reference to many such objects leading to > wholesome phenomena, including great calm. Such objects include > kasinas and all the other various meditation subjects listed by > Buddhaghosa, and definitely include the breath (which is certainly > "neutral"). The objects such as kasina, the breath, etc. that are given as suitable objects for the development of samatha are suitable because of their particular significance, not because of their 'neutral' aspect. There is a specific mode of contemplation for each of them, and it is on account of that mode of contemplation that calm, and later concentration, develops. > Jon, were you to give meditation on the breath sensations around the > nose/upper lip a true trial, I have no doubt, unless your scepticism > is even stronger than I think, that you will quickly and easily > observe calm and peace grow in your mind. I am not the least bit sceptical about samatha (including anapanasati), but only about some of the ideas about it that I read from time to time ;-)). Like for example that it is just a matter of concentrating on a neutral object. Jon 44734 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma jonabbott@... Geoff I think your suggestion (in another post) to stick to common ground is a good one. I have brought up one such area already, namely, the development of the path at the present moment as we read or compose posts, and would like to continue our discussion further. You said: > J: what would you see as being the development of > vipassana/panna as one is reading this post or composing a reply; or > what passages from the texts do you see as addressing this > occasion/situation? > --------------- > Aniccanupassana would be a good place to start :-)). I don't > think there's much disagreement here (although I don't think > clear seeing, i.e. vipassana, of 17 cittas per rupa, etc., is > necessary for panna -- and could quite possibly be another merely > theoretical notion of the commentators). I'm not sure what you mean by 'aniccanupassana'. Could you elaborate further? To make my question more explicit. Even for those who see the development of the mundane jhanas as being crucial, the fact remains that for most of the time, like now, there is no such 'practice'. What do you see as the 'practice' for all those 'ordinary' times in the day? Turning to a couple of other points from your message... > J: if I have understood you correctly, you take the view > that those same disciples must have attained mundane jhana (even > though there is no indication of this in the suttas in question > either), and I think you see this as a matter of doctrine. I'd be > interested to know the passages that proclaim this doctrine ------- > I see this, not as a matter of doctrine (I view the path as being > functional and not fundamentalist), ... I meant simply, something expressly declared by the Buddha in the suttas, rather than an inference drawn from the circumstances described there. I don't think functionalism vs. fundamentalism comes into it here ;-)) [The path itself cannot be 'fundamentalist', as that describes the way of thinking of a person, nor 'functional' for that matter. Nor can 'fundamentalist' apply to the teachings themselves, although perhaps 'functional' can.] > ... but as a matter of pragmatism, based on my own experience (not > that I'm claiming any > supramundane paths/fruitions), and the experience of highly realized > teachers such as Ajahn Chah, as I interpret what they`re > teaching. But if a particular view cannot be related back to the texts themselves, then I think the alarm bells should start to ring, no matter what the weight of the authority on its side. As regards the relevance of one's own experience, to my way of thinking there is a considerable danger here of one's wrong view and ignorance colouring the position and giving a false reading. It is easy for 'pragmatism' to be a rationale for following our own ideas, rather than giving proper consideration to ideas expressed in the texts that do not have immediate appeal. Take the following statement: > IMO the three lower paths/fruitions are not a one shot affair, after > which there's no possibility of regression even if > one undergoes no further bhavana. Such a view is overly idealistic and > doesn't take into account the complexity of the conditioned > mind or human behavior. I think it's fair to say that the suggestion that there's no possibility of regression after attaining the first path (stream entry) directly contradicts the suttas. It surprises me that you would consider this something about which you could come to your own conclusion. > J: is it the fact that samma-samadhi of the Noble Eightfold Path is > defined in terms of the 4 jhanas, or are there other specific passages > also? > --------- > Yes, it seems clear to me that jhana in the sutta sense, is an > essential path factor for all of the above mentioned reasons (and > probably many more). The path is a very subtle integration of sila, > samadhi, and panna. According to the ancient texts, the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are the factors that are present at a moment of path-consciousness (enlightenment). At that moment, the concentration factor is of the intensity of jhana. Jon 44735 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Htoo jonabbott@... Send Email Hi Tep I'm enjoying your Anapanasati and Mahanidana threads. Just a comment on an issue you raise below. Tep Sastri wrote: > Recently Mike and Nina pointed out that breathing was a concept which > made it "unqualified" as object of satipatthana. I also have heard the > suggestion that Anapanasati is samatha bhavana because the breath is > not an ultimate reality. But those who study the Anapanasati Sutta > know that the full version of Anapanasati consists of four tetrads for > kayanupassana satipatthana, vedananupassana satipatthana, > cittanupassana satipatthana, and dhammanupassana satipatthana - all > four in one. This fact suggests that anapanasati and Satipatthana are > very compatible (like water and milk?). Does this imply that it > doesn't matter that the breath is a concept or a rupa -- as long as it > works as an effective meditation object that was used by and > recommended by the Buddha? Mindfulness of breathing is listed among the objects of samatha, the highest development of which is the jhanas. As such, anapanasati is 'of great fruit, of great benefit'. What the Anapanasati Sutta describes, however, is more than the development of anapanasati leading to the jhanas; it describes how a person developing anapanasati can also develop insight at the same time, so that both the jhanas and enlightenment are attained. In other words, it describes anapanasati (the samatha development) plus insight development. As regards the latter, this involves the 4 anupassanas (foundations/establishments) which, as we know, embrace all dhammas as object of insight. This aspect of insight development is I believe the meaning of the passage "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination" and the detailed description elaborating on that. Jon PS Many thanks for the birthday wishes. As regards enlightenment, let's just say I'm thankful for whatever development of the path there can be ;-)) >From M. 118 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn118.html "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit? There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "[1] Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. ... [16] ... "This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit. "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? "[1] Now, on whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, discerns that he is breathing out long; ... [4] ... "This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination. ..." 44736 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,154 Vism.XIV,155 buddhistmedi... Hi Larry - Maybe the "little confusion" is caused by the implication of the term "abstinences" . Intentional refraining from wrong conducts until the habit sticks (one kind of sanna is completely replaced by another?) like you said, makes lots of sense to me. Nina's full explanation on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Tep: "the Commentary sounds as if this mind's averseness from evil- doing > is permanent." > > Hi Tep, > > The wording in this paragraph is a little confusing. It refers to the > three abstinence cetasikas: abstinence from wrong conduct by way of > speech, action, and livelihood. The CMA says , "the viratis > [abstinences] are operative only on an occasion when one intentionally > refrains from a wrong mode of conduct for which an opportunity has > arisen". ... ... .... > Larry 44737 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:21am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Jon buddhistmedi... Dear Jon - It was nice to read your thoughtful email about Anapanasati, Jon. The sutta quote you have given with your comments show me that you are clear about the practical benefits Without a question, clear knowing and (eventually) release is our supreme goal in practicing the Noble Eightfold Path < "As regards enlightenment, let's just say I'm thankful for whatever development of the path there can be" ;-)) > Thank you for the always kind words and support. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Tep > > I'm enjoying your Anapanasati and Mahanidana threads. Just a comment on > an issue you raise below. > ... ... 44738 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:45am Subject: Re: On Control - Request for Hasitappada's Participation buddhistmedi... Hi Charles (Hasituppada) - The proof is in the pudding, they say. Similarly, I can say that your meditation skills and experiential knowledge of vipassana give a great taste to your discussion. Since I need a great cook to help me make the puddings on Anapanasati and Mahanidana Sutta, so if you are not too busy, will you please join us cooking? Thank you in advance. Respectfully yours, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hasituppada" wrote: > Dear Swee Boon, > > If that was your interpretation you sould have said so. I do not > know what "control" is in Pali. One has to be careful in the use of > words in interpreting Pali texts. "Control" has a different > conceptual connotation. Stop, suppress, ignore, leave out, have the > implication of someone arranging or ordering things. One can > ofcourse discuss whether your interpretation is correct or wrong. > That would not be discussing the Sutta > > With regard to meditation, these words have no meaning. When a > thought arises in the mind, what ever the "quality" of the thought, > you merely become aware of the thought without reacting to it. > There is no suppressing, ignoring, controlling or stopping. If the > same thought comes over and over again you let in another thought, > "like a carpenter would drive in a nail on top of another to > remove it". > > When an emotion of anger arises in the mind be aware you have anger > and that will "stop", reaction to that thought. You should not go > beyond the thought, to "control" its arising. It is bare attention > that is necessary. > > with metta, > Hasituppada. > 44739 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,154 Vism.XIV,155 nilovg Hi Tep, op 24-04-2005 04:13 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > I am interested in the non-transgression charateristic of the 'abstinence > from bodily misconduct' (kaayaduccaritavirati ) -- the Commentary > sounds as if this mind's averseness from evil-doing is permanent. --------- N: As Larry explained: <"the viratis[abstinences] are operative only on an occasion when one intentionally refrains from a wrong mode of conduct for which an opportunity has arisen". > Thus, when there is an opportunity for transgressing, the viratis may operate, provided there are the right conditions for them. They are cetasikas, thus, very momentary. --------- T: But > since it is just a sankhata dhamma, it has to fall away sooner or later. > Therefore, in order to make kaayaduccarita virati look permanent (not > treading),... --------- N: Not treading refers to the fact that the three viratis each have their own field, that is all. One does not tread on the field of the other. Thus, when there is abstinence from bad speech, there is not at the same time abstinence from wrong action. Each citta only has one object at a time. -------- T: is it necessary that the monk has to constantly condition > the "proximate causes" (faith, conscience, shame, fewness of wishes, > and so on) such that they continue to arise all the time? But such effort > must be very demanding. ---------- N:The proximate causes arise with the mahaa-kusala citta. One of the three viratis, if it arises, arises with the mahaa-kusala citta and, as we have seen, that citta is also supported by many sobhana cetasikas, such as faith, conscience, shame, non-attachment. There is no person who can constantly condition wholesome qualities. They depend on the right conditions. Each of them is very momentary, a cetasika accompanying kusala citta that falls away immediately. But,as Larry explains, they are accumulated so that there are conditions for their arising again. **** Nina. 44740 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 10:22am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,154 Vism.XIV,155 - thanks buddhistmedi... Dear Nina (and Larry) - This is another occasion that you have corrected my misunderstanding that stems from lacking clear knowledge of the citta ("Each citta only has one object at a time") and viratis. I truly appreciate being corrected. ---------------------- N: 'Not treading' refers to the fact that the three viratis each have their own field, that is all. One does not tread on the field of the other. Thus, when there is abstinence from bad speech, there is not at the same time abstinence from wrong action. Each citta only has one object at a time. T: Thank you for your right explanation on the micro-behavior of the citta! The right words that throw lights on my doubt (and make it disappeared) are: "when there is abstinence from bad speech, there is not at the same time abstinence from wrong action". My misunderstanding was that when we were able to achieve abstinence in wrong doings, all three modes(action, speech and thought) would be simultaneously right and continue to be so. ---------------- N: There is no person who can constantly condition wholesome qualities. They depend on the right conditions. Each of them is very momentary, a cetasika accompanying kusala citta that falls away immediately. But, as Larry explains, they are accumulated so that there are conditions for their arising again. T: Can I, then, say that because of the accumulation and impermanent cetasikas, though it appears to our eyes that the Arahant is constantly 'in control' of wholesomeness, but actually the Arahant's wholesome qualities are not solid -- they fall away and arise like waves in the ocean? Thanks to larry's humbleness -- he did not claim that he was right. [But the fact still is that he was right. ] Respectfully yours, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > op 24-04-2005 04:13 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > I am interested in the non-transgression charateristic of the 'abstinence > > from bodily misconduct' (kaayaduccaritavirati ) -- the Commentary > > sounds as if this mind's averseness from evil-doing is permanent. > --------- 44741 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Asankhata foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Lisa, > > Welcome to the group from me. I have a comment on one word you used > below: Hi larry, So nice to meet you as well! I am looking forward to our interation and sharing of Dhamma on this board. Lisa: "The perception of inconstancy, that which is dependent on other to be will never be in and of itself but always rely on something else to define itself and that causes inconstancy when seeing reality as it is. It is like seeing through layers of gauze when you look through dependent relationships." [Larry:] This idea of defining a dhamma by other dhammas ties in with something I've been thinking about with regard to the difference between the views of Nagarjuna, a Mahayana philosopher, and abhidhamma or the suttas. I expect Nagarjuna would agree with you but abhidhamma would have a qualm. We, as ordinary ignorant beings, often and usually do define one dhamma with another dhamma or combine many dhammas into one, but right view is to see that a dhamma is only just what it is. As the Satipatthana Sutta says, "the body in the body". I think inconstancy is just impermanence. [Lisa] In what context do you use Dhamma or dhamma in your objection? My explanation is not from Mahayana or Nagarjuna but from my own exploration and breaking habitual reactions to unpleasant or pleasant sensations. What body do you think body is? How can there be a body in a body? The body is made of of many, many things that are not a body at all. So what body do you talk about external and internal as in 'body in the body'? [Larry] Also you had a question about what the word "fabrications" referred to. I think it's probably "sankhara", often translated as "formations". I think a better translation would be "fabricators" or "formers". The primary examples are desire and intention. Desire fabricates or causes kamma result, proliferates mental and physical activity, and accumulates as habit and latent tendency. In a literal sense a "formation" or combination of dhammas isn't a reality. If it were, chariots and persons would be real. [Lisa] Sankhara is a complicated word and it has many definitions I agree on your definition in this context as in patterns that manifest into mental and physical actions. [Lisa] What do you mean by 'real' as in chariots and persons? A truck and driver are very real to me when it is bearing down on me as I cross a cross walk here in Chicago. But my reaction to this truck may not be based on reality as it is! With Metta, Lisa 44742 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Cetasikas' study corner 175 - desire. nilovg Hi Charles D.C., op 24-04-2005 12:28 schreef Charles DaCosta op dacostas@...: > When we think of the goal with > desire or when we are afraid of failure there is akusala citta. Instead of having > desire for enlightenment we should see the value of right > understanding at this moment. --------------- Ch: For some, the "desire for enlightenment" is rooted in the right understanding > throughout all moments. ----------- N: Sometimes desire is wholesome desire, kusala chanda, and sometimes it is akusala, clinging. Mostly it is the kind of desire with clinging to a result. See above, I was speaking in the context of akusala. Nina. 44743 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. nilovg Hi Jon and Tep, I looked again at the text. Kh Sujin was explaining how Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Her answer was: through satipatthana, by using it as an object of insight. Nina. op 24-04-2005 15:17 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonabbott@...: > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when > developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their > culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, > bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. The seven > factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & > release to their culmination. 44744 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Vism.XIV,154 Vism.XIV,155 nilovg Hi Tep, I would not think so much of sañña, rather on the accumulation of kusala, as Larry and you also imply. The accumulation of sobhana cetasikas. Nina. op 24-04-2005 15:40 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Hi Larry - > > Maybe the "little confusion" is caused by the implication of the > term "abstinences" . Intentional refraining from wrong conducts until the > habit sticks (one kind of sanna is completely replaced by another?) > like you said, makes lots of sense to me. 44745 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. : Vism.XIV,154 Vism.XIV,155 - thanks nilovg Hi Tep, That is right, also the arahat's citta and cetasikas are momentary, that is their impermanent nature. Nina. op 24-04-2005 19:22 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > T: Can I, then, say that because of the accumulation and impermanent > cetasikas, though it appears to our eyes that the Arahant is > constantly 'in control' of wholesomeness, but actually the Arahant's > wholesome qualities are not solid -- they fall away and arise like > waves in the ocean? 44746 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:52am Subject: Review of the last DSG Message on Mahanidana & Comy buddhistmedi... Hello, everyone - Message # 31644 : Here Sarah discussed with Ken O the Commentary on how the Dependent Arising (paticcasamuppada) was so deep that even the profound Venerable Ananda "had failed to fully appreciate", because the Dependent Arising only "appeared deep" to him. She went on to say : "I think it also stresses why it is deeper and deeper understanding rather than any `cosmetic' avoidance of particular situations that has to be developed". Sarah also quoted from from the "Dispeller" (Sammohavinodanii, PTS transl, Classif. of the Structure of Conditions, 662) on the relationship between ignorance and the 4 Noble Truths. The key points of her quotes are given below : --The ignorance about the four truths can prevent one from recognising the fruit of merit (Sarah: i.e kusala vipaka) as sufferings, and "so he initiates the formation of merit classed as bodily, verbal and mental formation". -- Failing to see that the "fruit of merit reckoned as pleasure eventually produces great distress owing to the suffering in change, and that it gives no satisfaction, he initiates the formation of merit of the kinds aforesaid". -- "Also, not seeing the danger in the indulgence of sense-desire, etc. and the results thereof, through [wrongly] perceiving pleasure and being overcome by defilements, he initiates the formation of demerit occurring in the three doors". S: So ignorance of dependent origination and of the inherent unsatisfactoriness of all formations, including wholesome or profitable volitions, even of arupa jhanas, propels the cycle continuously from moment to moment, life to life `like one who has lost his way and takes the road to a goblin city'. Tep: Sarah was right to link the 'ignorance of paticcasamuppada' to perpetual rotation of the wheel of samsara. Avijja is the origination of the entire "mass of stress & suffering", therefore, when ignorance ceases, so must dukkha. "But how does a monk know, how does a monk see, so that ignorance is abandoned and clear knowing arises?" "There is the case, monk, where a monk has heard, 'All things are unworthy of attachment.' Having heard that all things are unworthy of attachment, he directly knows every thing. Directly knowing every thing, he comprehends every thing. Comprehending every thing, he sees all themes (all objects) as something separate". [SN XXXV.80 Avijja Sutta] Tep's Note: This DSG message (# 31644) is the last in my "preview" of the Mahanidana Sutta discussion here, before we actually begin our review of Bhikkhu Bodhi's "The Great Discourse on Causation" ( my book may arrive approximately 7 - 10 days from today). Respectfully, Tep ======= 44747 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 2:01pm Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) buddhatrue Hi Phil, Well, you have given me a lot to chew on with these two posts! ;-)) I will reply to both of them in one post and I hope it isn't too long: Phil: But I think if you let go of the points that bug you, you can find aspects of Abhidhamma that will be helfpul. James: Phil, I think you still don't get it as to why I don't jibe with the Abhidhamma. It is not that there are particular things about it which "bug" me; I don't really see the point to the entire thing. Is the Abhidhamma necessary for enlightenment? Even those who really like the Abhidhamma have to admit that: No, the Abhidhamma isn't necessary for enlightenment. So then, I don't feel it necessary to spend my time on something that isn't necessary. It's a mind trip, a thinker's passion, a brain doodle- what purpose does it serve? I am a Buddhist in the yogic, practice tradition: the way Theravada was before the advent of the Abhidhamma and the arrival of Buddhaghosa. Read the letter from B. Bodhi he wrote to this list- the suttas are the way of practice, the Abhidhamma and (some) commentaries are the way of theorizing. Phil: I'm still hoping James will have a Road to Damascus moment and become a fellow devotee, and I still have this feeling it might happen... :) James: I really hope that doesn't happen. I want to remain a practicing Buddhist… Phil: I think there is no way to fully benefit from Abhidhamma (and therefore the Buddha's teaching in general, in my opinion) if we insist on understanding everything before we believe in it. James: The Buddha invited everyone to test for themselves as to what he was teaching was true or not; he didn't ask anyone to believe him based on faith. (And he wouldn't ask anyone to *believe* there are 17 cittas during every rise and fall of rupa; if he taught this, it would have to be possible to know this for oneself.) Phil: There is a middle way there, of course. If I wasn't experiencing some moments of real understanding of and benefits from Abhidhamma by now, it would be foolish to keep believing in the not-yet-understandable. James: I don't know what benefits you have been getting from your Abhidhamma studies. As I read between the lines, I see some negative things in your life: increased alienation from your wife, being "spaced out" quite often, inability to write creatively, and quick outbursts of anger and frustration. Now, nobody's perfect, but the goal of dhamma practice is to become happier and more peaceful, to get along better with others, and to understand yourself more- until ultimately reaching liberation. It seems to me that your Abhidhamma studies are making you live in your mind rather than live in the world. Phil: Thus I appreciate the emphasis this group's founders place on right view. And patience. I think it is very helpful for people who would go down the wrong path if they applied themselves too intentionally to trying to cultivate mindfulness by following instructions. James: People will not follow any wrong path if they follow the teachings of the Buddha. I am not convinced that the "Right View" advocated by the founders of this group is the "Right View" taught by the Buddha. Phil: I think the usual idea is that we sit down in fronbt of the thick curtain of ignorance and try to bore our way through it by applying concentration. I can see why people think this is the way to go, but is it? I see moments of understanding, of being moved beyond the curtain of ignorance momentarily before the understanding falls away as more helpful in the long run. A small moment of piercing the curtain does more in the long run to take down the curtain that bearing down on it with full force. James: This is an interesting theory, but is this what the Buddha taught? You see, the Buddha didn't teach this type of approach, he taught that people should put everything into the practice if they want to achieve liberation. Remember, the Buddha left his palace and money, left his wife and child, shaved his head and donned a yellow robe. Does that sound like a "small moment of piercing the curtain"? After the Buddha reached enlightenment, he encouraged others to leave the householder life to devote their entire life to the practice. What do you think they were doing: just going around begging for food and waiting for "small moments of understanding" to pop up? Phil, you are preaching a watered-down version of Buddhism which isn't likely to get anyone anywhere. I have changed my mind, I will respond to the rest of your second post with another post. This one is getting too long and I have to go to bed. Take care. Metta, James 44748 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On Control - Request for Hasitappada's Participation dacostacharles Dear Hasituppada, No matter how you look at it, you are still trying to control either yourself or/and the thought. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hasituppada" wrote: > Dear Swee Boon, > > If that was your interpretation you sould have said so. I do not > know what "control" is in Pali. One has to be careful in the use of > words in interpreting Pali texts. "Control" has a different > conceptual connotation. Stop, suppress, ignore, leave out, have the > implication of someone arranging or ordering things. One can > ofcourse discuss whether your interpretation is correct or wrong. > That would not be discussing the Sutta > > With regard to meditation, these words have no meaning. When a > thought arises in the mind, what ever the "quality" of the thought, > you merely become aware of the thought without reacting to it. > There is no suppressing, ignoring, controlling or stopping. If the > same thought comes over and over again you let in another thought, > "like a carpenter would drive in a nail on top of another to > remove it". > > When an emotion of anger arises in the mind be aware you have anger > and that will "stop", reaction to that thought. You should not go > beyond the thought, to "control" its arising. It is bare attention > that is necessary. > > with metta, > Hasituppada. 44749 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:17pm Subject: Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah or Jon - Please advise me where to go find answers to those questions at the end of each chapter in Nina's " Abhidhamma in Daily Life ". They are quite interesting - some are challenging. I had tried to find those answers at the "Files" section, but couldn't find them. Thank you much! Sincerely, Tep =========== 44750 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asankhata lbidd2 Hi Lisa, You asked some complex questions but I'll try to answer them simply. Lisa: "In what context do you use Dhamma or dhamma in your objection?" Larry: By "dhamma" I mean object of consciousness, though there are other ways to use that word. Lisa: "What body do you think body is? How can there be a body in a body? The body is made of of many, many things that are not a body at all. So what body do you talk about external and internal as in 'body in the body'?" Larry: By "body" I mean rupa. In the Satipatthana Sutta there is the phrase, "a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome in this world covetousness and grief". So contemplating the body in the body is consciousness of whatever rupa arises in consciousness with the understanding that this rupa is not the feeling associated with it, not its history or associations with similar rupas, not an evaluation of it, and not some idea of it. It is just what it is, the sensation of hardness as you take a step, for example. Because it is only what it is there is no covetousness and grief, imo. Lisa: "What do you mean by 'real' as in chariots and persons? A truck and driver are very real to me when it is bearing down on me as I cross a cross walk here in Chicago. But my reaction to this truck may not be based on reality as it is!" Larry: Objects of consciousness are either concepts or realities. A concept is either a name or an idea. A reality is either something that arises, ages, and ceases, or nibbana. You might say that a truck or person arises, ages, and ceases, but if someone questioned you, where is the truck or person? Is the truck or person any of its parts? Is there such a phenomenon as a group, collection, or wholeness of parts? Where is it? Person and truck are ideas but the ultimate reference of these ideas is reality. So to spare the continuity of these realities, person and truck should get out of each other's way, conventionally speaking. For purposes of examining the reality of experience and diminishing "covetousness and grief" analytical distinctions should be made. Overall, these are deep questions and I have only answered in a superficial way. The best answer comes from direct experience. Is any of this applicable to your experience or do you see it otherwise? Whether you know Nagarjuna or not, you were essentially talking about emptiness. In the context of the above I understand "emptiness" to be the emptiness of concepts in their being empty of reality. You were relating emptiness to conditioned arising, saying that an experience is empty because it arises dependent on conditions. Conditions being part of its identity, what it is, it is essentially unfindable because there are many conditions. So what you have implied is that an experience is a collection. To my thinking a collection is a concept. My comment was to inject the notion of ultimate reality into this formulation with the implication that ultimate reality isn't empty in the sense of being empty of reality. Hope that makes sense, but whether it does or doesn't, feel free to have at it. None of this is entirely orthodox and I may not have accurately represented your views. Larry 44751 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:08pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too sukinderpal Hi Larry, all, > Htoo said satipatthana moves one into the present. The > present is where reality is found. Or, to put it another way, reality > is where the present is found. This isn't intellectual understanding. > It is experience. Recently I thought and came to the same conclusion, if I understand you right. I was thinking about the meaning of `present moment' and how this is understood better as one understands dhammas. After all as you say, "reality is where the present is found". This I think relates to K. Sujin's reminder about the importance of knowing when there is sati and when there isn't. So we can keep talking about the importance of understanding the moment, but if there has not been any satipatthana, then the `present moment' will forever remain just an `idea'. Even if this level of sati very rarely arises, one at least comes to understand the difference between wrong and right sati and also realities and concepts. So even though the moments of right practice are very rare, the inclination to `wrong' practice nevertheless decreases. It is better to have only intellectual understand of what is and what is not the path, than to follow the wrong one, mistaking it for the right. The latter I think, will forever miss the `present moment' but would of course think otherwise. I am glad that you appreciate the distinction between reality and concept based on `experience' and not just logical reasoning. :-) Metta, Sukinder 44752 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too lbidd2 Tep: "Recently I thought and came to the same conclusion, if I understand you right." Hi Tep, I agree, same view. I'm glad you are reviving this topic. It always shows me something new. Larry 44753 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:29pm Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) philofillet Hi James James, the below and other things in your letter will be very helpful for reflection. Thanks, amigo. As it happens, I was reflecting on this very question (how Abhidhamma has benefited me) yesterday as I walked by the riverside (spaced-out?) I'll get back to you on my day off. This letter you wrote is a very good example of why I value your friendship. Metta, Phil > James: I don't know what benefits you have been getting from your > Abhidhamma studies. As I read between the lines, I see some negative > things in your life: increased alienation from your wife, being > "spaced out" quite often, inability to write creatively, and quick > outbursts of anger and frustration. Now, nobody's perfect, but the > goal of dhamma practice is to become happier and more peaceful, to get > along better with others, and to understand yourself more- until > ultimately reaching liberation. It seems to me that your Abhidhamma > studies are making you live in your mind rather than live in the world. > > 44754 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too buddhistmedi... Hi Larry - I am sorry that I did not reply to one important message (# 44715) of yours yesterday. Today your next message (#44752 ) came and I realized that I had missed the one earlier! So please allow me to answer both here. T: I agree with you on the following point you made in this message: "In the consciousness that experiences reality there is no desire, no self view, and no opinions of any kind". But I am not sure I understand what you wrote about Jhana : "In jhana, one wants to avoid the present because it is so changeable". How could you avoid the present while your consciousness was on the object of the present moment? L: If one wants to develop samatha and vipassana together one could take concept (illusion) as the object of insight. So, in the case of anapanasati, the three objects are hardness of breath for satipatthana, a sign of breath for jhana, and "breathing" for samatha/vipassana. This last bit is just my idea :-)) T: An interesting idea, Larry. But what advantages would a conceptual object offer you (in each of the three cases)? --------------------- [ # 44752] L: > I agree, same view. I'm glad you are reviving this topic. It always > shows me something new. > However, since neither one of us is a real expert in Anapanasati, we have to be very careful -- not to stick our necks too far out ! Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Tep: "Recently I thought and came to the same conclusion, if I > understand you right." > > Hi Tep, > 44755 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 – Livelihood & Assisting the Hunter kenhowardau Dear Azita, We agree that dhammas come and go too quickly to be caught and controlled and that it is impossible, for example, to direct sati to a predetermined object. Isn't it also impossible to dictate the nature of cetana? I suspect the doctor or nurse who risks deregistration for refusing to perform [legal] operations is making the same mistake as the insubordinate bomb-release officer. They might (or might not) be conventionally praiseworthy, but they are ultimately misguided. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Dear Sarah and others on this thread, . . . > Azita: I want to clarfy that the above event took place prior to my > having heard the dhamma - about 30 years ago. > These days I would firmly decline the position of assisting > anyone perform abortions as I believe it to be akusala kamma. > 44756 From: "Philip" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:40pm Subject: Re: Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life philofillet Hi Tep > Please advise me where to go find answers to those questions at the end > of each chapter in Nina's " Abhidhamma in Daily Life ". I can help with this question. If you try to answer the questions yourself, in a post, Nina and others will be kind enough to give you very helfpul feedback. I say that from experience because I've been doing that with the "Cetasikas" chapter questions. I hope you do answer them. Maybe post the quesions first, so we all have a chance to reflect on them. Thanks in advance! Metta Phil 44757 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too lbidd2 Hi Tep, Here's some quick thoughts: L: "In jhana, one wants to avoid the present because it is so changeable". T: "How could you avoid the present while your consciousness was on the object of the present moment?" Larry: In jhana your consciousness isn't on the present moment. It's on the sign, an idea. L: "If one wants to develop samatha and vipassana together one could take concept (illusion) as the object of insight. So, in the case of anapanasati, the three objects are hardness of breath for satipatthana, a sign of breath for jhana, and "breathing" for samatha/vipassana. This last bit is just my idea:-))" T: "An interesting idea, Larry. But what advantages would a conceptual object offer you (in each of the three cases)?" Larry: The last case is the interesting one. Conventional realty (ideas) is what all our hopes and fears are based on. So, insight into the ultimate nature of that could be said to be getting at the heart of the problem. However, this isn't just concept. It is concept that references reality in some way. Even though breathing is a concept there is a reality in there somewhere. In that mix of concept and reality could be said to be a middle way between is and isn't. Just thought. Larry 44758 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 10:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Asankhata foamflowers Larry: By "dhamma" I mean object of consciousness, though there are other ways to use that word. Larry: By "body" I mean rupa. In the Satipatthana Sutta there is the phrase, "a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome in this world covetousness and grief". So contemplating the body in the body is consciousness of whatever rupa arises in consciousness with the understanding that this rupa is not the feeling associated with it, not its history or associations with similar rupas, not an evaluation of it, and not some idea of it. [[It is just what it is, the sensation of hardness as you take a step, for example. Because it is only what it is there is no covetousness and grief, imo.]] [Lisa]If I understand you correctly the "the body in the body" is directly looking at sensation without the overlay of conceptual thought. As in labels for objects being a concept rather than reality as it is. Such as, I see a chair but actually I am thinking chair rather than understanding that the chair is actually parts of other things, like wood, fabric, glue, and nails. I don't want to have to do that every time I look at an object and I'm skirting very close to a Mahayana concept of emptiness. Understanding the label chair is empty of chairness and the many parts of what makes up a chair are also empty of chairness and the idea that was thought up to build the chair is also empty of chairness. The word chair is a lable, the form of chair is just parts and the idea that thought up the chair is a mental formation and not a chair. There is no chair. To unbind from this habitual labeling of objects I should view the sensation of the chair that arises when eye contacts the object that memory and habit has labeled "the chair" rather than thinking "the word chair". Just viewing the sensations rather than playing with labels right? [Larry] Whether you know Nagarjuna or not, you were essentially talking about emptiness. In the context of the above I understand "emptiness" to be the emptiness of concepts in their being empty of reality. You were relating emptiness to conditioned arising, saying that an experience is empty because it arises dependent on conditions. Conditions being part of its identity, what it is, it is essentially unfindable because there are many conditions. So what you have implied is that an experience is a collection. To my thinking a collection is a concept. [Lisa:] "The perception of inconstancy, that which is dependent on other to be will never be in and of itself but always rely on something else to define itself and that causes inconstancy when seeing reality as it is. It is like seeing through layers of gauze when you look through dependent relationships." [Lisa] From " Buddhist Thought in India" by Edward Conze, [68] " The Vibhasha says that through the three 'doors' we view things from the point of view of the antidote, the objective support and the intention. (1) Emptiness is the antidote to the 'false view of individuality', and opposes the notions of 'I' and 'mine', (2) the Signless rejects all objects, of eye, ear, or any other sense, and (3) the Wishless is the absence of all intentions (asaya) or plans (pranidhana) in respect of any dharma of the triple world, although there is some striving as regards the Path. I don't like using the word emptiness it is not very helpful when understanding how things are dependent on each other to be what they are and therefore impermanent and subject to dissolution and if grasped with aversion or craving the cause of suffering. Something that is dependent on other to be can never be in and of itself and there for it is subject to inconsistencies. My body is dependent on so many things that are also dependent on so many other things...If my heart gives out I am dead and I do depend on this heart to be here right now. I could go on for ever with this form of reductionism. It was very useful in helping me let go of my view of the body being me and also letting go of my fear of death. But that's about it. My body is still here and subject to squashing if a truck hits it and that is pretty real to me and I take care not to get squashed I look both ways when crossing the street. [Larry] My comment was to inject the notion of ultimate reality into this formulation with the implication that ultimate reality isn't empty in the sense of being empty of reality. [Lisa] I had never thought of that as a collection or conceptualization, your right it is and I can let go of it. But when it comes to the ultimate reality that goes way beyond words and talking about it gives me a headache..... Thanks! I mean thanks for bring up the attachment to lists and collections and taking a look at emptiness as a concept 'the emptiness of emptiness.' When I pick up a can of beans I don't eat the label I open the can and heat the beans up and eat them that is pretty real to me! With Metta, Lisa 44759 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:43pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 176 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (g) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== When sati arises it is accompanied by kusala viriya, right effort, which performs its function of strengthening and supporting citta and the accompanying cetasikas, and in that way there can be perseverance to develop right understanding. It takes great patience and courage, even heroic fortitude, to persevere with mindfulness of all kinds of realities which appear, also of akusala dhammas we would rather shun as object of mindfulness. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44760 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life sarahprocter... Hi Tep (Chris & Phil), I think Phil's suggestion is a very good one....we haven't kept any 'model' answers aside that I recall. In any case, any further answers or discussion is always useful for further reflection for everyone. Others may join in too. Metta, Sarah p.s Chris did give a summary of links for earlier discussions of ADL, I think. Maybe, you could repost this if you have it handy, Chris. --- Philip wrote: > > > Hi Tep > > > Please advise me where to go find answers to those questions at the > end > > of each chapter in Nina's " Abhidhamma in Daily Life ". > > I can help with this question. If you try to answer the questions > yourself, in a post, Nina and others will be kind enough to give you > very helfpul feedback. I say that from experience because I've been > doing that with the "Cetasikas" chapter questions. I hope you do answer > them. Maybe post the quesions first, so we all have a chance to reflect > on them. Thanks in advance! ... 44761 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 0:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too sukinderpal Hi Larry, Tep, all, Last time you mistook my response for Tep's, but, no problem. > L: "If one wants to develop samatha and vipassana together one could > take concept (illusion) as the object of insight. So, in the case of > anapanasati, the three objects are hardness of breath for satipatthana, > a sign of breath for jhana, and "breathing" for samatha/vipassana. This > last bit is just my idea:-))" > > T: "An interesting idea, Larry. But what advantages would a conceptual > object offer you (in each of the three cases)?" > > Larry: The last case is the interesting one. Conventional realty (ideas) > is what all our hopes and fears are based on. So, insight into the > ultimate nature of that could be said to be getting at the heart of the > problem. However, this isn't just concept. It is concept that references > reality in some way. Even though breathing is a concept there is a > reality in there somewhere. In that mix of concept and reality could be > said to be a middle way between is and isn't. Just thought. It is true that when conventional reality is the object of consciousness, many ultimate realities arise and fall that can be known with sati and panna. This is why I think, daily life is ideal for practice. But when will any level of sati and panna arise is beyond control, this is true for both samatha and satipatthana. So why choose a particular object such as breath? Is there some idea that this is more conducive to the arising of either or both levels of sati? The middle way is when a reality is the object of consciousness. Prior to this is the intellectual understanding of the nature of these same realities. I don't think it is as you state //in that mix of concept and reality//. Metta, Sukinder 44762 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 0:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dangers, Supports, causes etc sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha & All, --- matheesha wrote: > One of Geoff's answers sparked off a memory which I would like to know > a bit more about. It is about the buddha talking about knowing a list > of things like near causes, supports, the danger, the cessation, etc of > some dhamma. I seem to recall coming across this in a sutta and i think > it is mentioned quite a bit in the commentaries. I feel it might be a > structural pattern for invesitgation into the dhamma, and that to me is > very interesting practice point. If anyone knows more about it, any > info will be welcome. ... S: I don't think anyone replied to this and I'm not quite sure what you are referring to. Maybe Geoff will recall or you can find his post which sparked off your memory. The only things I can think of are the 4 kinds of kamma which Htoo wrote about recently #44664 or the near and far enemies etc of the brahma viharas. Oh unless it is the proximate cause, function, characteristic, manefestation of dhammas...:-/ Perhaps I'm being dense here...let's try to get to the bottom of this... Metta, Sarah ======= 44763 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,154 Vism.XIV,155 sarahprocter... Hi Larry & All, I thought you gave a really helpful explanation below. I found the following reminder from the Vism most useful too (with regard to the virati or abstentions): "Their proximate casuses are the special qualities of faith, conscience, shame, fewness of wishes, and so on." Confidence in the Dhamma, in kusala (wholesome qualities) of all kinds, scruples, seeing the danger in akusala (unwholesome qualities), not being greedy, fewness of wishes....contentedness with whatever is being experienced now.... Keep up the good work! I'll look forward to Nina's additions as usual too. Metta, Sarah ======= --- LBIDD@... wrote: > > The wording in this paragraph is a little confusing. It refers to the > three abstinence cetasikas: abstinence from wrong conduct by way of > speech, action, and livelihood. The CMA says , "the viratis > [abstinences] are operative only on an occasion when one intentionally > refrains from a wrong mode of conduct for which an opportunity has > arisen". So I guess it would be something like not stepping on a bug > that crosses your path or not taking what isn't given. When the > situation arises there is the sense of the right thing to do; maybe it's > conscience or scruples. These cetasikas can accumulate and become > habitual. <....> 44764 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 0:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life christine_fo... Hello Tep, Phil, Sarah, all, We once had a study corner on Abhidhamma in Daily Life which started on 12 March 2002 and finished on 13 September, 2002. This was diligently overseen by Larry, who posted this first message: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11786 and continued to regularly do so until the final post of that series at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15662 I no longer have the summary - I think it is imprisoned in my old computer which died late last year. But it is posted on dsg somewhere - around, within, or just after - Post numbers 11786 and 15662. :-) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep (Chris & Phil), > > I think Phil's suggestion is a very good one....we haven't kept any > 'model' answers aside that I recall. In any case, any further answers or > discussion is always useful for further reflection for everyone. Others > may join in too. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Chris did give a summary of links for earlier discussions of ADL, I > think. Maybe, you could repost this if you have it handy, Chris. > > > --- Philip wrote: > > > > > > Hi Tep > > > > > Please advise me where to go find answers to those questions at the > > end > > > of each chapter in Nina's " Abhidhamma in Daily Life ". > > > > I can help with this question. If you try to answer the questions > > yourself, in a post, Nina and others will be kind enough to give you > > very helfpul feedback. I say that from experience because I've been > > doing that with the "Cetasikas" chapter questions. I hope you do answer > > them. Maybe post the quesions first, so we all have a chance to reflect > > on them. Thanks in advance! > ... 44765 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anusayas. sarahprocter... Hi Phil & All, --- Philip wrote: > Ph: So seeing our repeated mistakes is an indicator of anusayas. I > like that line in Dhammapada. "See the man who has been set free run > back to his chains." Instead of using that moment to understand > anusays and feel gratitude to the Buddha who teaches the way out, we > fret and regret and beat ourselves up, just tightening the chains. > .... S: Beautifully put. Comical really (if it wasn't so pitiful):-). As for your question on motivations, I reflected on this and I think that the inkling I have about the extent of moha (ignorance) for most the day is what I always come back to. Look how often seeing arises -- so much so that we have an illusion of 'light' appearing throughout the day, rather than just when visible object is experienced. When there isn't direct awareness of seeing or visible object as they are experienced, there's ignorance. The same for the other sense experiences. Enjoying the discussions James and you are having too. Metta, Sarah ======= 44766 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 1:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, You wrote a good post on'Visitors' - relevant for the luminous threads. Also lots of great posts on all the realms - well done. Sometime I have posts put aside to come back to you on, but always seem to be running behind:-). (Also a very good one on science, I recall). If anyone is new to the list and totally confused by Htoo's Dhamma Thread series, there is a section in 'Useful Posts' called 'Abhidhamma - Htoo's summaries' (or something like that). --- htootintnaing wrote: > > PS: I was still considering 'why must akusala citta not have akusala > kamma if it is not kamma patha'. ... S: Just to clarify, all kusala and akusala cetana are kamma, but the question is whether cetana/kama which is not the degree of kamma patha brings results. As you clearly explained in your post, DT335 (#44664), there are 4 kinds of kamma: - regenerative kamma (janaka) - supportive kamma (upatthambhaka) - weakening kamma (upapiilaka) - destructive kamma (upaghataka) Metta, Sarah ====== 44767 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Goodbye DSG (for now anyway) sarahprocter... Hi Geoff, Thank you for your kind words and further comments. I hope you had a good trip to visit your sister. --- sunnaloka wrote: > Regarding the Kammatthana 'view' , it thoroughly blew my mind when I > started reading the venerable teachers such as Ajahn Chah and the > others, that these forest monks were making statements that have more > to do with early Zen and Mahamudra nondualism than with anything ever > stated in the Theravadin abhidhamma tradition. But it’s not > surprising really, because Khammatthana, Zen, and Mahamudra are all > *practice* traditions, and the resultant panna of practice, if it is > to be universally valid, should not depend upon time, culture, or > what historical school one belongs to. .... S: Well let’s see what common ground we can find, looking at the suttas in particular. Firstly, we can both agree that the Dhamma is for *practice* and no one is here, I’m sure, just to develop an intellectual framework or scholastic knowledge of the teachings. Secondly, I agree that if the panna (wisdom) is universally valid, it doesn’t ‘depend upon time, culture or historical school’ as you say. What is true and what can be known is such, regardless of the language or wrapping we use. ... > And so after reading the Khammatthana Ajahns, I thought it would be > fruitful to see if their panna can be traced to the Sutta Pitaka -- > and lo -- it’s all there. Unsurprisingly though, it has either > been thoroughly missed or completely misunderstood by the abhidhamma > academia. ... S: Please could you give me some examples and perhaps we can pause and discuss this area further. How do you define panna for a start and what kind of panna are you talking about? Grateful for any elaborations of such panna ‘which can be traced to the Sutta Pitaka’. .... > > And so I’m willing to discuss some of these notions on DSG -- > to see where it leads more than to attempt to refute or debate > abhidhammikas -- because such conflicting debate can easily become > counterproductive. ... S: Understood. However, please detail the notions you are referring to with support from the suttas so that we can see if there are any aspects to discuss furher. Of course we may just agree to disagree at times, and that’s fine. I know we approach from different angles, but that’s how it is for most people here too. .... > S: p.s whereabouts in Canada are you? > ------------------------ > Conditioned aggregates presently abide in Lethbridge Alberta (pop. > ~70,000) -- about a two hour drive south of Calgary or about an hour > drive north of Montana (USA) border. > > Unconditioned citta/vinnana is forever and always nonabiding -- > transcends temporal duration (time) and relative location (space) ;-) .... S: :-) Thanks for telling me about the conditioned aggregates meanwhile. Metta, Sarah p.s I read your interesting comments to Joop about why you ‘emigrated to the Pali Sutta Pitaka’ and being an outsider in all camps. I think it is good to question ‘dearly cherished belief-sets’ and I know you’re not simply trying to be an ‘annoying contrarian’:-). Please continue to ‘attempt to get to the heart of the matter’ and feel very free to question anything I (or anyone else here) says... ====================== 44768 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Analyse meditation with Abhidhamma sarahprocter... Hi Lisa, I’m really very impressed at the way you’ve clearly come from other schools or disciplines of Buddhism but are eagerly picking up all the Theravada lingo and fitting in so well here and joining in all the discussions. You make many excellent comments too. --- Lisa wrote: > > > Here is my daily meditation. I would like to take my meditation apart > and analyse it using Abhidhamma method. I had never put the daily > practice I do on paper. Writing it down I found out english words > don't go far enough into the details I experience and the Abhidhamma > does! This is what I'll be working on while I'm here on the board. > The jhana, anapanasati, and vipassana meditation dialoge is very > helpful. ... S: Thank you very much for writing down your daily meditation routine – I enjoyed reading it and found it I hope your Sweetie joins us here sometime as well:-). It sounds as though you have a happy and active life and a very positive approach. As for ‘analysing’ it from an Abhidhamma point of view, we can see that everything that happens to us during the day, all our experiences, everything we hold dear and important comes down to namas and rupas . Apart from these two kinds of realities, there is nothing else at all in a day that truly exists (even temporarily). The namas are those realities which can experience an object such as seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, feelings, likes, dislikes, remembering, thinking and so on. The rupas are those realities which can never experience any object such as the visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile objects and more subtle rupas such as the eye-base, ear-base and so on. Even when you feel close to someone, all that is ever experienced are these sounds, visible objects, tactile objects and so on and then of course there is a lot of pleasant feeling, attachment and thinking on account of these experiences. In truth, no ‘Self’, no ‘Sweetie’ and this is the heart of what we discover in the Buddha’s teachings. It’s realy very liberating to even see this intellectually a little, don’t you think? The development of vipassana is the understanding and awareness of these namas and rupas when they are directly experienced – not by changing your lifestyle, but beginning to see that what is taught in the Abhidhamma is no different from what is being experienced throughout the day. I’ll look forward to reading all your other threads and discussing anything further here. Thank you again for taking so much trouble to sincerely share your daily meditation with us. Metta, Sarah ======= 44769 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:34am Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Htoo, You wrote a good post on'Visitors' - relevant for the luminous threads. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah, thanks for your reply. I know you are busy. The post on 'visitors' is not based on my original ideas. I directly translate a part of Myanmar book for the benefit of non-Myanmar readers. I think, the author himself wrote 'this' based on tiika and other tipitaka references. He is a well known figure to many Myanmars. But this fame was not as a Dhamma-writer. Now he seems to be happy because of his practice. He is 'Mya Than San'. He was a university student. He wrote poems. He wrote proses. He joined arm force. He became a captain. As he had a good reputation on his art work, he was appointed to do art-related job in arm force. Then he wrote songs. He wrote screen-scripts. He dithe job of director in film production. He acted as an actor in some films. When he was in frontier he met a Sayadaw. Since then he totally changed his life. Currently he has been writing on practical Dhamma experiences in connection with daily life. 'Visitors' is not new to Myanmar people. Because Sayadaws in Myanmar almost always preach in this way that some bad mind visit us visitors and they destroy the host. Even though 'the ideas in the post Visitors' are not mine, I did not translate Myanmar into English directly. The post was just my re- writing. I acknowledge that 'Mya Than San' is one of my idols in non- bhikkhu Dhamma practitioners. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Also lots of great posts on all the realms - well done. Sometime I have posts put aside to come back to you on, but always seem to be running behind:-). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I move Dhamma Thread steadfastly while I reply any responses if they arise. I know that 31 realms ideas may not be accepted by non- Buddhists who become Buddhists. But I am ready to reply should any feedback is there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: (Also a very good one on science, I recall). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am writing some science-related post soon. Maybe today. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: If anyone is new to the list and totally confused by Htoo's Dhamma Thread series, there is a section in 'Useful Posts' called 'Abhidhamma - Htoo's summaries' (or something like that). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > > PS: I was still considering 'why must akusala citta not have akusala > > kamma if it is not kamma patha'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ... S: Just to clarify, all kusala and akusala cetana are kamma, but the question is whether cetana/kama which is not the degree of kamma patha brings results. As you clearly explained in your post, DT335 (#44664), there are 4 kinds of kamma: - regenerative kamma (janaka) - supportive kamma (upatthambhaka) - weakening kamma (upapiilaka) - destructive kamma (upaghataka) Metta, Sarah ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think, we are viewing from different angles. My perspective was cleaning away of all defilements (that is all akusala cittas must not arise, and finally all kusala citta must not arise and javana cittas have to be kiriya cittas finally. Here 'must not' do not necessarily means the idea of control.) Your view was from the angle of 'result'. So you had been talking from the perspective of kamma-patha while I had been talking kamma. I said all akusala cittas are akusala kamma. You said not all akusala cittas are kamma patha. When I wrote on kamma in connection with their functions or their regenerative power there are 4 kamma as can be seen above. When kamma is not janaka kamma, it will not give rise to effect. So some akusala cittas of non-kamma-patha will do other job of kamma like supporting or reducing janaka kamma. With respect, Htoo Naing 44770 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukinder: Hi Larry, Tep, all, Last time you mistook my response for Tep's, but, no problem. >L: "If one wants to develop samatha and vipassana together one could take concept (illusion) as the object of insight. So, in the case of anapanasati, the three objects are hardness of breath for satipatthana,a sign of breath for jhana, and "breathing" for samatha/vipassana. This last bit is just my idea:-))" > T: "An interesting idea, Larry. But what advantages would a conceptual object offer you (in each of the three cases)?" >Larry: The last case is the interesting one. Conventional realty (ideas)is what all our hopes and fears are based on. So, insight into the ultimate nature of that could be said to be getting at the heart of the problem. However, this isn't just concept. It is concept that references reality in some way. Even though breathing is a concept there is a reality in there somewhere. In that mix of concept and reality could be said to be a middle way between is and isn't. Just thought. Sukinder: It is true that when conventional reality is the object of consciousness, many ultimate realities arise and fall that can be known with sati and panna. This is why I think, daily life is ideal for practice. But when will any level of sati and panna arise is beyond control, this is true for both samatha and satipatthana. So why choose a particular object such as breath? Is there some idea that this is more conducive to the arising of either or both levels of sati? The middle way is when a reality is the object of consciousness. Prior to this is the intellectual understanding of the nature of these same realities. I don't think it is as you state //in that mix of concept and reality//. Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sukin, Larry, Tep and interested members of DSG, Sorry to butt in between your discussions. Sukin asked, 'So why choose a particular object such as breath?' I think The Buddha preached in detail regarding 'the practice leading to nibbana'. The Buddha preached to bhikkhus who would re-teach lay people. The Buddha included everything related to 'the practice'. There are many meditation centres and many have different traditions. Some were accused as teaching the 'rituals'. Some people 'CUT OUT almost everything' from the teachings and encourage to do 'JUST DAILY LIFE contemplation while driving, swimming, playing, shopping, etc etc.' I do accept 'sati' and 'panna' etc etc. But I was wondering why peope are reluctant to accept 'breathing meditation' as the genuine practice taught by The Buddha. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44771 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:56am Subject: Visitors 1 (was: Musings10 .....) sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > > Dear Sarah, thanks for your reply. I know you are busy. The post > on 'visitors' is not based on my original ideas. I directly translate > a part of Myanmar book for the benefit of non-Myanmar readers. > > I think, the author himself wrote 'this' based on tiika and other > tipitaka references. .... S: Yes, there are many references in the suttas and commentaries to the visitors throught the 6 doorways. How can we ever feel lonely when there are so many visitors all day to be met wisely:-)?? The following is an extract on the same topic of visitors, from A.Sujin's 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas',ch 10, transl by Nina: ***** >The bhavangupaccheda is succeeded by the five-sense-door adverting-consciousness. This citta attends to the object, it knows that the object impinges on the tongue-door but it cannot taste yet. It is as if one knows that a visitor has arrived at the door but one does not see him yet and does not know who he is. We all have guests who come to see us. When we think of guests we are likely to think of people, but in reality our guests are the different objects that appear through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the body-sense and the mind-door. When we see visible object that appears through the eyes, visible object is our visitor. When we hear sound, sound is our visitor. When we do not hear, sound does not appear, and thus, a visitor has not come yet through the ear-door. When flavour appears, flavour is like a visitor, it appears through the door of the tongue just for a moment and then it disappears. Whenever an object appears through one of the doorways that object can be seen as a visitor that comes through that doorway. It is there just for an extremely short moment and then it disappears completely, it does not come back again in the cycle of birth and death. Elderly people tend to feel lonely when they lack company. When they were younger they met many people, they enjoyed the company of relatives and friends. When they have become older the number of visitors, whom they see as people, has dwindled. When one asks elderly people what they like most of all, they will usually answer that they like most of all the company of people. They are happy when other people come to see them, they like to be engaged in conversation. However, in reality everybody has visitors, at each moment one sees, hears, smells, tastes or experiences tangible object. Usually when such visitors come, citta rooted in attachment arises and enjoys what appears through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue or the body-sense. There are different kinds of visitors. Nobody would like a wicked person as visitor, but a dear relative or friend is most welcome. In reality the different objects that appear through the senses are only rúpas. Rúpa does not know anything and therefore it cannot have any evil intention towards anybody. When would a visitor be an enemy and when a dear relative or friend? Actually, when an object appears and one enjoys it and clings to it, there is an enemy, because enjoyment with clinging is akusala dhamma. Akusala dhamma is not a friend to anybody. Whereas kusala dhamma is like a close relative who is ready to help one, eager to give assistance at all times. Therefore, we should know the difference between the characteristic of kusala citta and of akusala citta. Akusala citta is evil, harmful, it is like an enemy, not a friend. When we think of an enemy we may be afraid, and we do not like his company. However, it is akusala citta which is wicked, and this citta is a condition that there will also be an enemy in the future. Whereas kusala citta, which is like a dear relative or friend, is a condition that there will also be a dear relative or friend in the future. Rúpa is not a condition for foe or friend, because rúpa does not know anything, it has no evil or good intention. The sound which appears is a reality which does not experience anything, it has no wish that anybody hears it or does not hear it. Sound is rúpa which arises because there are conditions for its arising; which kind of sound will impinge on someone’s ear-sense is dependent on conditions. When we are fast sleep we do not even hear the deafening, frightening sound of thunder. Then the sound of thunder is not our visitor. However, it can be someone else’s visitor when there are the accumulated conditions which cause the ear-sense to be impinged upon by that sound. It is dependent on conditions whether an object will be someone’s visitor through the doorway of eyes, ears, nose, tongue or body-sense. Kamma which has been accumulated causes the arising of vipåkacitta which experiences an object through one of the sense-doors. Thus, the visitors which present themselves through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue and the body-sense are visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object. They appear just for a moment and then they fall away, they disappear, not to return again. There is no living being, person, self or anything there. Nobody knows in a day which visitor will come through which doorway and at which moment.< ***** Metta, Sarah ======= 44772 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:01am Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) buddhatrue Hi Phil, Okay, I'm awake and ready to tackle the rest of your post! ;-)) Phil: I think the "crossing the flood" sutta (first one in Samyutta Nikaya) gets at this. When we press too hard, strain to get results, we are swet away. If we are negligent and don't apply ourselves at all, we sink. James: This is the Middle Way as taught by the Buddha; but your Middle Way doesn't seem to correspond to the Buddha's Middle Way. When the Buddha was describing straining too hard, he was talking about extreme austerities (starving oneself, physical torture, mental torture, etc.), he wasn't talking about sitting, walking, standing, or lying meditation. Those things, even though they may seem so at times ;-), are not self-torture. Granted, I wouldn't say you are doing nothing toward liberation, you are learning the dhamma. You aren't just studying Abhidhamma, you are studying the suttas also. This will probably lay the seeds for later development. The Buddha said that his monks had two duties: to learn the dhamma and to train the mind. One outta two isn't too bad! ;-) Phil: If people without right understanding apply themlves to those explicit intstructions, will understanding arise from it? I suspect not. The ignorance will just get "thicker" if you will. You will disagree strongly with that statement, and probably consider it blasphemous and worthy of a rebirth in hell. James: LOL! What! You are entitled to your opinion and I don't think it will warrant you a rebirth in hell! ;-) Now, if you try hard to convince others not to practice the Buddha's teaching, that is another matter. However, I don't agree with your conclusion. The Satipatthana Sutta (the longer version) also includes reflecting on the Four Noble Truths, so there is no possibility whatsoever that ignorance will increase by following its instructions. Phil: One thing you could do to help me, if you're concenred, is tell me more about how mindfulness arises in your daily life. I know you say that you decided to not to post about daily life because of reaction to your posts in the past or something, but until you tell me more about your mindfulness in daily life, you will remain a bit of a fundamentalist scold to me. Yes, trust the Buddha's word, but also trust examined daily life experience. That's why I enjoy NIna's books. The Buddha's word in the context of daily life. That's what it's all about for me. I don't know enough about your daily life to be deeply impressed by what you say, but I respect your decsion to keep it to yourself. James: Okay, I will tell you some about my personal life; however, I am not telling you this to "impress" you. I will share with you since you share with me. Trying to `impress people' is exactly why I don't talk about my personal life. For example, I belong to another Buddhist group and one of the members introduced herself with a detail of how often she meditates per day and during retreats, blah, blah, blah… I just knew one thing, she is not doing the right type of meditation or she would be wise enough to know that it is inappropriate to use meditation as a type of spiritual CV. Anyway, mindfulness arises during my daily life centered on two main themes: the three taints (greed, hatred, delusion), and the suffering of conditioned existence. These are the two areas where I try to be most mindful. To give you some examples, if I feel myself getting irritated or angry about something (usually school related ;-) I am mindful of that feeling and watch it until it goes away. Then, with reviewing, I trace that feeling back to its source to discover where it came from. I usually find that the feeling came from delusion: thinking that things should be different than how they really are. Following this process, anger arises less and less often. With greed, if I can feel myself craving a particular object or lifestyle (like a house near the ocean) I reflect on where that thing will be 100 years from now, or where I will be 100 years from now (dead), and I see how it is something I don't need. Delusion is the hardest one to confront and requires clear thinking and concentration, arising from meditation. There are so many examples of delusion that spring up in my mind that it would be difficult to detail even a fraction of them. I struggle everyday to keep my mind sane and wise in the face of so many delusions (especially since those around me are mired in delusion also). What I am most mindful of is the suffering of conditioned existence. It was through meditation that I realized that a job, money, or relationship doesn't lead to happiness- that they are empty and without meaning. I wanted to become a monk, to truly follow the Buddha's path, but it is nearly impossible to find the proper sangha. I went all the way to Thailand and returned disappointed. Oh well, I can still practice as a householder. I work but I know that it is just to survive; I have money but I know that it is just to survive; I have a relationship but I know it is just for companionship which is also needed to survive. I try to meditate when I can to gain inner peace in the face of knowing that so much of my supposed "life" is empty and without meaning. But, I have a good sense of humor and I keep practicing. Moments of bliss come with the realization that there is an escape from so much suffering- and that possibly one day I will achieve that escape. Phil: I guess you missed my posts in which I shared passages from Kh Sujin's Deeds of Merit. Somewhere I read from her that if we don't understand sila and dana, we can't cultivate panna. I think you are under-appreciating the importance she places on dana and sila. James: Yes, I did miss those. Perhaps you can give me the link again? What I want to know is if she stresses dana to the sangha, like that taught by the Buddha; and sila as a prerequisite for meditation (to be free of guilt and worry) like that taught by the Buddha. Phil: I like what Nina said about renunciation. There is renunciation with every moment of kusala, because we are not thinking about satisfying our own needs. Is that bad Dhamma? James: Yes, it is bad Dhamma. It is utter nonsense and not what the Buddha taught about renunciation. Look up what the Buddha taught about renunciation and see if it matches. Phil: James, may I propose that we keep our exchange to once a week. When you get back to me, I will hold my response until my day off. (Thursdays) James: That sounds fine to me. It is difficult to keep up with your very long posts! You mind is exploding with ideas ;-). Metta, James 44773 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:25am Subject: [dsg] Re:Breathing. - Message # 27400, Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep and Htoo, ... snip ... snip ... N: The yogavacara has to know which jhanafactors he has abandoned and which ones are remaining. Once he enters jhana he experiences the nimitta with piti, but this does not mean that the citta can have piti as object and also the nimitta. Each citta can have only one object at a time. I find that Ken O explained this clearly re background. I admit that the text is very compact. I would like to ask Htoo what he thinks. Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Tep, Larry and all, This thread is interesting and many discussions have done while I was shortly away. As Nina said, 'Yogavacara has to know which jhana factors he has abandoned.' And 'which ones are remaining'. Nina continued, 'Once he enters jhana he experiences the nimitta with piti.' Here, Nina did not say 'Yogavacara takes piti as object'. But what he takes is nimitta. While he is taking nimitta there is an associated cetasika called 'piti'. At that time 'piti' is not an object of jhana cittas. But when 'Yogavacara exits jhana, he examines that while he was in jhana what jhana factors were there and what were not there. He is moving counting one after another. When he reaches 'piti', he is taking 'piti' as object. At that time, he is no more in jhana. But he is in paccavakkhana vithi varas of contemplating on jhana factors, who were there and who were not there. No citta can take 2 objects in a single moment. Nina is right. ken O is right. When I tracked down the threads, I found a question of 'knowledge of abhidhamma is useful for samatha/vipassana or not useful?' asked by Tep to Nina. Nina already answered yes, it is useful. When there is no basic knowledge, realities will never be discovered. This basic knowledge may come in different ways. Some acquired through others' teachings while some very rare occasions the knowledge is acquired through experience. What is sure is that many people know what is 'the present'. Even some trained animals know what is 'the present'. Example is guide dog. But there are many who never know nama and rupa at all. To conclude, while in jhana, piti is not the object of attention. But piti is an accompaniment of jhana cittas. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44774 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:28am Subject: Dhamma Thread (336) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kinds of kamma depending on their regenerative power. 1. janaka kamma ( regenerative kamma, or reproductive kamma ) 2. upatthambhaka kamma( supportive kamma, or reinforcing kamma ) 3. upapiilaka kamma ( weakening kamma, or diminishing kamma ) 4. upaghataka kamma ( cutting kamma, or destructive kamma ) Janaka kamma are kamma that are capable of giving rise to their effects or their results. These kamma may be as old as aeons, kappas long. Or may be as recent as a few lives ago. Whatever time is suitable for them, they do have the power or capability to give rise to their results. Upatthambhaka kamma are kamma that do not have the same power like janaka kamma. But when there are janaka kamma and at the same time there are also upatthambhaka kamma, then that upatthambhaka kamma or supportive kamma or reinforcing kamma do add to the effect of janaka kamma or reproductive kamma or regenerative kamma. Fire does destroy things to be burnt whatever there is blowing wind or not. But when there is burning with fire and at the same time there is blowing wind then that blowing wind does reinforce the burning process or does support the burning process of fire. Upatthambhaka kamma behaves in the same way like blowing wind while itself does not have the same power of janaka kamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44775 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:47am Subject: Re: Visitors 1 (was: Musings10 .....) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > --- htootintnaing wrote: > > > > Dear Sarah, thanks for your reply. I know you are busy. The post > > on 'visitors' is not based on my original ideas. I directly translate > > a part of Myanmar book for the benefit of non-Myanmar readers. > > > > I think, the author himself wrote 'this' based on tiika and other > > tipitaka references. > .... > S: Yes, there are many references in the suttas and commentaries to the > visitors throught the 6 doorways. How can we ever feel lonely when there > are so many visitors all day to be met wisely:-)?? > > The following is an extract on the same topic of visitors, from A.Sujin's > 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas',ch 10, transl by Nina: > ***** > >The bhavangupaccheda is succeeded by the five-sense-door > adverting-consciousness. This citta attends to the object, it knows that > the object impinges on the tongue-door but it cannot taste yet. ..snip .. snip ... > ***** > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Thanks for your quote of A Sujin's 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas'. But there is some differences what I and Mya Than San wrote. What Nina translated as 'visitors' are not cetasikas but they are 'arammana'. They are knocking at the door of 5-sense-door- adverting consciousness. What I wrote was visitors cetasikas. Dosa comes without declaration. He destroys everything. He leaves waves or after-effect. Dosa comes in, sometime, without any apparaent causes and destroy the host's home. Like dosa, there are many other visitors. Maana comes in different forms. Example let us say 'I win the lottery'. Maana arises immediately and many plans are racing. Another example; let us say 'I do not have anything to eat while people nearby are eating greedily'. Maana arises. I do not have to think of them whatever they are eating. I am 'me' and I have my own body and I have my own kamma. Another visitor comes in. He is uddhacca. Let us say, 'I lost my beloved daughter'. Among different visitors of dosa, lobha, moha uddhacca does not leave for a long time. So what I referred was 'cetasikas'. What A Sujin and Nina referred to was 'arammanas'. When I say 'cetasikas' are visitors, there may arise confusion. That is who is 'host'. No one. But conventional beings, which is not a reality. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44776 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:37am Subject: Re: Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life - 5 Questions buddhistmedi... Hi Larry, Chris, Sarah, Phil, Sukin, Htoo and interested members - Thank you Chris for the valuable background information. I'll pursue that further. Thanks to Sarah too for your comment. Thank you Larry for the practical suggestion. Here is the first set of questions in the area of objects of meditation and jhana. My own (probably incorrect) answers will be posted within 2 days. Then anyone may use my answers as a "strawman". 1) When seeing now, is there ekaggata cetasika? What is its function? 2) What is the function of ekaggata cetasika which arises with the jhanacitta? What is its object? 3) What is the function of ekaggata cetasika arising with the panna (wisdom) of the Eightfold Path which realizes a characteristic of nama or rupa? What is its object at that moment? 4) Why is mindfulness of breathing one of the most difficult subjects of meditation? 5) What is the difference between samma-sati (right mindfulness) in samatha and samma-sati in vipassana? What are their respective objects of awareness? I think Phil, Sukin and Htoo will be glad to answer these questions because they strongly relate to the ongoing discussion on breath meditation. Respectfully yours, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Tep, Phil, Sarah, all, > > We once had a study corner on Abhidhamma in Daily Life which > started on 12 March 2002 and finished on 13 September, 2002. This > was diligently overseen by Larry, who posted this first message: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11786 > and continued to regularly do so until the final post of that series > at: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15662 > > I no longer have the summary - I think it is imprisoned in my old > computer which died late last year. But it is posted on dsg > somewhere - around, within, or just after - Post numbers 11786 and > 15662. :-) > > metta, > Chris > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > Hi Tep (Chris & Phil), > > > > I think Phil's suggestion is a very good one....we haven't kept any > > 'model' answers aside that I recall. In any case, any further > answers or > > discussion is always useful for further reflection for everyone. > Others > > may join in too. > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > > p.s Chris did give a summary of links for earlier discussions of > ADL, I > > think. Maybe, you could repost this if you have it handy, Chris. > > > > > > --- Philip wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Tep > > > > > > > Please advise me where to go find answers to those questions > at the > > > end > > > > of each chapter in Nina's " Abhidhamma in Daily Life ". > > > > > > I can help with this question. If you try to answer the > questions > > > yourself, in a post, Nina and others will be kind enough to give > you > > > very helfpul feedback. I say that from experience because I've > been > > > doing that with the "Cetasikas" chapter questions. I hope you do > answer > > > them. Maybe post the quesions first, so we all have a chance to > reflect > > > on them. Thanks in advance! > > ... 44777 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma jonabbott@... Send Email Geoff and All Apologies for the typo in my recent post. > I think it's fair to say that the suggestion that there's no possibility > >of regression after attaining the first path (stream entry) directly >contradicts the suttas. It surprises me that you would consider this >something about which you could come to your own conclusion. > > This should of course have read, "... the suggestion that there is the possibility of regression after attaining the first path (stream entry) directly contradicts the suttas". Jon 44778 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:32am Subject: Realizable Release ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Four Modes of Direct Experience: The Exalted Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are these 4 realizable things: What four ? By the body one realizes the 8 releasing liberations. By memory one realizes one's prior lives in all diverse detail. By the divine eye one realizes the death & rebirth of beings. By understanding one realizes elimination of mental fermentation. These, Bhikkhus, are the 4 realizable things... Source: The Numerical Sayings of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya II 182 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=204050 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132552 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44779 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re:Breathing. - Message # 27400, Htoo buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo, Nina, Phil, Larry and other members - Thank you much Htoo for your firm and very clear answers that are valuable to me: 1. "While he is taking nimitta there is an associated cetasika called 'piti'. At that time 'piti' is not an object of jhana cittas". 2. [But when the yogavacara exits jhana] ".. he is in paccavakkhana vithi varas of contemplating on jhana factors, who were there and who were not there". So it is clear that "no citta can take 2 objects in a single moment. Nina is right. Ken O is right". And Tep was wrong about piti as object of the jhanacitta. Sincerely and respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > (snipped) > Here, Nina did not say 'Yogavacara takes piti as object'. But what he > takes is nimitta. While he is taking nimitta there is an associated > cetasika called 'piti'. At that time 'piti' is not an object of jhana > cittas. > > But when 'Yogavacara exits jhana, he examines that while he was in > jhana what jhana factors were there and what were not there. He is > moving counting one after another. When he reaches 'piti', he is > taking 'piti' as object. At that time, he is no more in jhana. But he > is in paccavakkhana vithi varas of contemplating on jhana factors, > who > were there and who were not there. > > No citta can take 2 objects in a single moment. Nina is right. ken O > is > right. When I tracked down the threads, I found a question > of 'knowledge of abhidhamma is useful for samatha/vipassana or not > useful?' asked by Tep to Nina. > > Nina already answered yes, it is useful. > > When there is no basic knowledge, realities will never be discovered. > This basic knowledge may come in different ways. Some acquired > through > others' teachings while some very rare occasions the knowledge is > acquired through experience. > > What is sure is that many people know what is 'the present'. Even > some > trained animals know what is 'the present'. Example is guide dog. But > there are many who never know nama and rupa at all. > > To conclude, while in jhana, piti is not the object of attention. But > piti is an accompaniment of jhana cittas. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 44780 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life nilovg Hi Tep and Phil, Phil, you are very diplomatic. ;-)) If time allows, you could start with some input and then I can see whether I add something. Tep, perhaps just a few Q. at a time is good for all concerned, we do not want long posts. When I wrote those Q. a long time ago, Kh. Sujin said not to add the answers. She thinks that people should test their own understanding and consider things for themselves. This has always been her approach, she never wanted people to just follow her or influence them in any way. In India and also before, she stressed very much that the Buddha wanted people to develop their own understanding. They should compare the different texts of the Tipitaka with each other and verify the truth for themselves. Nina. op 25-04-2005 04:40 schreef Philip op philco777@...: If you try to answer the questions yourself, in a post, Nina and others will be kind enough to give you very helpful feedback. I say that from experience because I've been > doing that with the "Cetasikas" chapter questions. 44781 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too nilovg Hi Sukinder, We have been discussing knowing characteristics and the present moment on and on. but here in your post you touch on the essence: knowing when there is sati and when there isn't. Very good to discuss and consider this more often. I have put this post into my favorites file. I am interested about what Tep, Phil and others will say! Nina. op 25-04-2005 03:08 schreef Sukinder op sukinder@...: > I was thinking about the meaning of `present moment' and how > this is understood better as one understands dhammas. After all as you > say, "reality is where the present is found". > This I think relates to K. Sujin's reminder about the importance of > knowing when there is sati and when there isn't. So we can keep talking > about the importance of understanding the moment, but if there has not > been any satipatthana, then the `present moment' will forever remain > just an `idea'. Even if this level of sati very rarely arises, one at least > comes to understand the difference between wrong and right sati and > also realities and concepts. So even though the moments of right > practice are very rare, the inclination to `wrong' practice nevertheless > decreases. 44782 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Review of the last DSG Message on Mahanidana & Comy nilovg Hi Tep, Thank you for reviewing Message # 31644. A good start. Nina. op 24-04-2005 20:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Message # 31644 : Here Sarah discussed with Ken O the Commentary > on how the Dependent Arising (paticcasamuppada) was so deep that > even the profound Venerable Ananda "had failed to fully appreciate", > because the Dependent Arising only "appeared deep" to him. 44783 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:29am Subject: Re:Breathing. - Message # 27400, Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > Dear Htoo, Nina, Phil, Larry and other members - > > Thank you much Htoo for your firm and very clear answers that are > valuable to me: > > 1. "While he is taking nimitta there is an associated cetasika > called 'piti'. At that time 'piti' is not an object of jhana cittas". > 2. [But when the yogavacara exits jhana] ".. he is in paccavakkhana > vithi varas of contemplating on jhana factors, who were there and who > were not there". > > So it is clear that "no citta can take 2 objects in a single moment. Nina > is right. Ken O is right". And Tep was wrong about piti as object of the > jhanacitta. > > > Sincerely and respectfully, > > > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, I do not say Tep was wrong as there was no Tep at all. :-)) There are mind-objects or dhamma-arammana. One citta takes one object. There are 6 possible classes of dhamma-arammana or mind- objects. 1. 5 pasada rupas or 5 sense-sensitive-materials 2. 16 sukhuma rupas or 16 subtle materials 3. 89 cittas or 89 states of consciousness 4. 52 cetasikas or 52 mental factors or 52 mind-accompaniments 5. 1 nibbana or absolute peace 6. 1 pannatti or names So a citta will take a)one of 5 pasada rupas or b)one of 16 sukhuma rupas or c)one of 89 cittas or d)one of 52 cetasikas or e)nibbana or f)pannatti or names But that citta is not the only one. Each just lasts one single moment. And not every kind of citta can take these objects. Examples; akusala citta cannot take nibbana as its object. magga citta cannot take kama object as its object. jhana citta cannot take kama object as its object. But manodvara-avajjana citta can take any of these objects without any exceptions. So if a citta is taking 'piti' as its object, then the object is piti and not other mind-object. So a citta who is taking piti as its object is not in jhana-javana-vithi-vara. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: As long as there is 'I' or 'Me' or 'My' or 'Mine', there will be 'you' 'or 'you' or 'your' or 'yours', 'He' or 'Him' or 'His' or 'His', 'She' or 'Her' or 'Her' or 'Hers', 'They' or 'Them' or 'Their' or 'Theirs'. These words in their conventional meanings are the source of 'stinginess' or 'macchariya', the source of 'jealousy' or 'issaa'. 44784 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:32am Subject: Re: Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life - 5 Questions htootintnaing Dear Tep and Dhamma Friends, Very good set up of questions. I will answer straight away. Sukin, Phil and other may answer in their way on this thread. I hope Nina will answer much more accurately. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Hi Larry, Chris, Sarah, Phil, Sukin, Htoo and interested members - Thank you Chris for the valuable background information. I'll pursue that further. ... snip ...as a "strawman". 1) When seeing now, is there ekaggata cetasika? What is its function? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer 1) When seeing now [example; the word 'w' in 'now' just before the parenthesis of this example is seen and it is now being talked], there is ekaggata cetasika. Its function is to focus at 'w' in seeing or its function is to fix at an object [now the object is rupa-arammana of light-form-shape- darkness-brightness-colour and not to other objects]. Nina will also beautifully answer. Rob M's answer will also be equally good. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep question: 2) What is the function of ekaggata cetasika which arises with the jhanacitta? What is its object? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer 2: The function of ekaggata cetasika which arises with the jhanacitta [example 1st jhana rupakusala citta taking odaata kasina] is to fix the mind to 'the idea of white'. Its object is nimitta pannatti or name of sign. Here full explanation about jhana and jhana cittas may be required. Otherwise the explanation may not be complete. When the meditator starts meditating on 'white kasina' the initial object is visual object and initial bhavana cittas have a kind of samadhi. That samadhi is called preparatory samadhi. When matured, the meditator can meditate without seeing 'visual object' any more. Because there arise another object which is called uggaha nimitta, which is the exact copy of visual object but not 'a rupa'. That object is not a citta. That object is not a cetasika. That object is not nibbana. As that object is not citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana, it is just a name. It is a name for a sign. That sign is the exact copy of visual object. But uggaha nimitta is not a rupa. So uggaha nimitta is panatti. When matured, another counter sign arises. This sign is totally different from initial mental image called uggaha nimitta. This new image is called patibhaaga nimitta. That nimitta is very beautiful. That sign can arise in 22 kinds of kammatthana. That sign does not arise in 4 brahmavihara kammatthana, 4 aruppa kammatthana, 1 aharepatikuulasanna kammatthana, 1 catudhaatuvavatthana kammatthana, 8 of 10 anussati kammatthana. 2 anussati kammatthanas that can have patibhaaga nimitta are aanaapaanassati kammatthana and kaayagataasati kammatthana. So 4, 4, 1, 1, 8 = 18 kammatthanas do not have patibhaaga nimitta, while 22 kammatthanas can have patibhaga nimitta. When patibhaga nimitta or counter-image arises the samadhi is almost matured to become jhana but not yet because the mind has not been absorbed yet. There are no hindrances at all in this samadhi. But this samadhi is called proximate-concentration or upacaara samadhi. Once the mind is totally absorbed into the object and the object and mind merge into singlity. The cittas at that time are all jhana cittas and there is continuous flow of jhana cittas like bhavanga cittas. But while bhavanaga cittas are just resultant consciousness, jhanacittas are javana cittas and they fully apperceive the jhana object. The function of ekaggata cetasika in that absorptive concentration is to fix at patibhaaga nimitta, which is panatti. The jhana citta's object is patibhaaga nimitta. So ekaggata cetasika's object is also patibhaaga nimitta. Regarding cetasikas, 1)all cetasikas (without any exceptions) have to arise at the very same and identical moment of arising of a citta that they accompany. 2)all cetasikas take the identical object, which the citta they accompany take as its object. 3)all cetasikas have to depend on the identical vatthu, where the citta they accompany has to depend on. 4)all cetasikas have to disappear at the very same time or at the identical moment of disappearing of the citta that they accompay. So the object of 'ekaggata cetasika in question' is patibhaga nimitta if the jhana is the output of 22 kammatthana. If jhana is the output of 4 brahmavihara kammatthana then the object will be 'satta pannatta' or 'names of beings'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question: 3) What is the function of ekaggata cetasika arising with the panna (wisdom) of the Eightfold Path which realizes a characteristic of nama or rupa? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer 3: Here it is needed to be specific. If it is supramundane Eightfold Path, the citta is not seeing any rupa or other sankhata nama. But just nibbana, which is also a nama dhamma as it can be taken by nama dhamma. The function of ekaggata cetasika in NEP is to fix at nibbana while panna realises that the current object nibbana is absolute peace and nothing is comparable. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep' question continued: What is its object at that moment? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's answer continues: Its object is nibbana and no other object can be nibbana here. If it was other object, then it is not genuine NEP and so citta will not be true magga citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question: 4) Why is mindfulness of breathing one of the most difficult subjects of meditation? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer 4: Because there is just a thin layer. There were many who did not see realities and their characterisitcs even though there was very high panna. Even The Bodhisatta of our Buddha, The Buddha gotama when he was a young prince, He just had 1st jhana and there was no samma- ditthi of NEP. This panna had not arisen until at the 3rd watch of night of His 35th birthday, when aasavakkhaya nana arose. Before that time the Bodhisatta did have up to 8th jhana or He attained all 4 rupa jhana and all 4 arupa jhana. But He knew that it was not the end. So even though those 8 jhanas were already high, he ignored them and approached the forest and stayed there for 6 years for intensive searching. But finally, He had to return to Jhana again. That is the 1st jhana with breathing meditation. While even The Bodhisatta of highest ripe could not penetrate the thin layer straight away at the time when He attained all 8 jhanas, we all should give very very high respect to 'breathing meditation'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's question: 5) What is the difference between samma-sati (right mindfulness) in samatha and samma-sati in vipassana? What are their respective objects of awareness? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer 5; Character-wise they both are the same. That is exactly the same. The function of sati is to remember, to be mindful. Samatha takes panatti as their object. There is sati in samatha. Vipassana takes 'anicca/dukkha/anatta'-bearing nama or rupa as their object. Quite different. Totally different. Completely different. That was why I once strongly argue that rupavacara jhana cittas or arupavacara arupa jhana cittas are not samma-samadhi of NEP that is samma-samadhi or ekaggata cetasika that arises in magga cittas. When in jhana [rupa or arupa], anicca or dukkha or anatta of rupa or nama will not be seen as jhana cittas are taking different object apart from nama and rupa. But there are lokuttara jhana cittas. But these cittas are all lokuttara cittas and not rupavacara jhana cittas or arupavacara arupa jhana cittas. Their lineage is lokuttara cittas. So this is different from simple jhanas of rupa and arupa [which were attained by 2 teachers of Bodhisatta ]. Again these lokuttara jhana cittas while they are having the power of jhana [that is they are totally free of hindrances], their object is nibbana and not pannatti. So in summary the objects of samatha and vipassana are not the same. One may argue that 'breathing point' is the same. But seeing is different. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep continued: I think Phil, Sukin and Htoo will be glad to answer these questions because they strongly relate to the ongoing discussion on breath meditation. Respectfully yours, Tep ======== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > wrote: > > > > Hello Tep, Phil, Sarah, all, > > > > We once had a study corner on Abhidhamma in Daily Life which > > started on 12 March 2002 and finished on 13 September, 2002. This > ... snip ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not good at 'lakkhana, rasa, paccappatthana, and padatthana of dhamma. Nina and Rob M are very good at them. They will explain those parts. Lakkhana = characteristics rasa = function paccappatthana = manifestation padatthana = immediate causes or close causes With Metta, Htoo Naing 44785 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:35am Subject: Re: Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life - 5 Questions htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: Dear Tep and Dhamma Friends, Very good set up of questions. I will answer straight away. Sukin, Phil and other may answer in their way on this thread. I hope Nina will answer much more accurately. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Tep wrote: > > Hi Larry, Chris, Sarah, Phil, Sukin, Htoo and interested members - > > Thank you Chris for the valuable background information. I'll pursue > that further. ... snip ...as a "strawman". > > 1) When seeing now, is there ekaggata cetasika? What is its function? > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: > > Answer 1) > > When seeing now [example; the word 'w' in 'now' just before the > parenthesis of this example is seen and ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Nina, Sukin and All, This long message of reply to Tep was nearly lost because of internet breakdown. But the message just escaped. :-)) With Metta, Htoo Naing 44786 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:17am Subject: Re:Breathing. - Message # 27400, Htoo buddhistmedi... Dear Firend Htoo - Thank you for the summary of the kinds of dhamma-rammana(mind objects) -- it is good to keep them in mind, so to speak. > H: So a citta will take > > a)one of 5 pasada rupas or > b)one of 16 sukhuma rupas or > c)one of 89 cittas or > d)one of 52 cetasikas or > e)nibbana or > f)pannatti or names > > But that citta is not the only one. Each just lasts one single > moment. And not every kind of citta can take these objects. > H: > I do not say Tep was wrong as there was no Tep at all. :-)) > Sure, Htoo, sure. There were just two heaps of aggregates that exchanged "mind objects" on two computers, and these aggregates passed away. The mental fabrication that there is 'Tep' is conditioned by atta-ditthi, and it is impermanent too. |:->) . > H: > But manodvara-avajjana citta can take any of these objects without > any exceptions. > Thanks, Htoo. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > 44787 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: good wishes, to Jon nilovg Dear Jonothan, All good wishes and many happy returns, also from Lodewijk. We admire your good qualities, among which is your fewness of wishes, being content with a bowl of noodles as your birthday meal. Nina and Lodewijk. 44788 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Breathing. - Message # 27400, Htoo nilovg Dear Htoo, Thank you for your clear explanation: jhana what jhana factors were there and what were not there. He is > moving counting one after another. When he reaches 'piti', he is > taking 'piti' as object. At that time, he is no more in jhana. But he > is in paccavakkhana vithi varas of contemplating on jhana factors, > who were there and who were not there.> Nina. 44789 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:52am Subject: Htoo: "There was no Tep at all." [was Re:Breathing.] buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo, To say "there is no self " (because 'self ' is a consequence of atta- vadupadana : clinging to the personality view) is one thing, and to say that "there is noone who acts" is another thing. I want to make sure. So when you wrote that there was no Tep, which of the following did you essentially have in mind? -- There is no being who acts, just emptiness? So there is no Tep. -- The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences? Tep who made an error is not the same as Tep who wrote this message. Therefore, Tep is an illusion. -- There are only khandhas and dhatus, or rupa and nama, they are not beings? So Tep is just a label; there is no real person. -- Or, all of the above? Sincerely, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Htoo, Nina, Phil, Larry and other members - > > > > > > So it is clear that "no citta can take 2 objects in a single > moment. Nina is right. Ken O is right". And Tep was wrong about piti as object of the jhanacitta. > > > > > > Sincerely and respectfully, > > > > > > Tep > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Tep, > > I do not say Tep was wrong as there was no Tep at all. :-)) > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > PS: As long as there is 'I' or 'Me' or 'My' or 'Mine', there will 44790 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 0:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma matheesha333 Something interesting I discovered in my studies today... --------------------------------------- "Now, what are the eight thoughts of a great person? This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self-aggrandizing. This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is discontent. This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not for one who is entangled. This Dhamma is for one whose persistence is aroused, not for one who is lazy. This Dhamma is for one whose mindfulness is established, not for one whose mindfulness is confused. This Dhamma is for one whose mind is centered, not for one whose mind is uncentered. This Dhamma is for one endowed with discernment, not for one whose discernment is weak. This Dhamma is for one who enjoys non- complication, who delights in non-complication, not for one who enjoys & delights in complication. "'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, being modest, does not want it to be known that 'He is modest.' Being content, he does not want it to be known that 'He is content.' Being reclusive, he does not want it to be known that 'He is reclusive.' His persistence being aroused, he does not want it to be known that 'His persistence is aroused.' His mindfulness being established, he does not want it to be known that 'His mindfulness is established.' His mind being centered, he does not want it to be known that 'His mind is centered.' Being endowed with discernment, he does not want it to be known that 'He is endowed with discernment.' Enjoying non-complication, he does not want it to be known that 'He is enjoying non-complication.' 'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. "'This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is discontent.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk is content with any old robe cloth at all, any old almsfood, any old lodging, any old medicinal requisites for curing sickness at all. 'This Dhamma is for one who is content, not for one who is discontent.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. "'This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not for one who is entangled.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, when living in seclusion, is visited by monks, nuns, lay men, lay women, kings, royal ministers, sectarians & their disciples. With his mind bent on seclusion, tending toward seclusion, inclined toward seclusion, aiming at seclusion, relishing renunciation, he converses with them only as much is necessary for them to take their leave. 'This Dhamma is for one who is reclusive, not for one who is entangled.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. "'This Dhamma is for one whose persistence is aroused, not for one who is lazy.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. 'This Dhamma is for one whose persistence is aroused, not for one who is lazy.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. "'This Dhamma is for one whose mindfulness is established, not for one whose mindfulness is confused.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk is mindful, highly meticulous, remembering & able to call to mind even things that were done & said long ago. 'This Dhamma is for one whose mindfulness is established, not for one whose mindfulness is confused.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. "'This Dhamma is for one whose mind is centered, not for one whose mind is uncentered.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. 'This Dhamma is for one whose mind is centered, not for one whose mind is uncentered.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. "'This Dhamma is for one endowed with discernment, not for one whose discernment is weak.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk is discerning, endowed with discernment of arising & passing away — noble, penetrating, leading to the right ending of stress. 'This Dhamma is for one endowed with discernment, not for one whose discernment is weak.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said. "'This Dhamma is for one who enjoys non-complication, who delights in non-complication, not for one who enjoys & delights in complication.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk's mind leaps up, grows confident, steadfast, & firm in the cessation of complication. 'This Dhamma is for one who enjoys non-complication, who delights in non- complication, not for one who enjoys & delights in complication.' Thus was it said. And with reference to this was it said." [AN VIII.30] 44791 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: good wishes, to Jon jonabbott@... Send Email Dear Nina and Lodewijk Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Dear Jonothan, >All good wishes and many happy returns, also from Lodewijk. >We admire your good qualities, among which is your fewness of wishes, being >content with a bowl of noodles as your birthday meal. >Nina and Lodewijk. > > Many thanks for this. Very kind of you to write. Actually, the meal will be in relatively luxurious surroundings. Sarah's description of 'a bowl of noodles' was a little tongue-in-cheek I believe ;-)). What I'm looking forward to most for the day are the usual good reminders from the discussion on the list, and for that I am very grateful to all members and especially to you and Lodewijk. Jon 44792 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asankhata lbidd2 Hi Lisa, You bring up a good question that I don't have a good answer for: how do we relate with conventional realities, like crossing the street, in a pathwise way? We want to reach _both_ the other shore and the other curb. Maybe some wholesome (kusala) cetasikas are needed here. Larry 44793 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too lbidd2 Sukin: "So why choose a particular object such as breath? " Hi Sukin, I'm so sorry for mixing you with Tep. "Sukin" was in my mind but it didn't make it to my fingers. As to the question above, in addition to what Htoo said I would say a mental discipline, attending to a particular object over and over, brings up all sorts of attachments that want to resist that discipline. We are probably not aware of how many latent attachments we are carrying around and this is a good way to stir them up. Of course attachment should be experienced with the same nonattachment as the object of satipatthana. Larry 44794 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:10pm Subject: Re: "This Dhamma is for one who is modest" (was Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma philofillet Hi Matheesha, and all Thanks for sharing this sutta, Matheesha > "'This Dhamma is for one who is modest, not for one who is self- > aggrandizing.' Thus was it said. With reference to what was it said? > There is the case where a monk, being modest, does not want it to be > known that 'He is modest.' Being content, he does not want it to be > known that 'He is content.' Being reclusive, he does not want it to > be known that 'He is reclusive.' His persistence being aroused, he > does not want it to be known that 'His persistence is aroused.' I think it's helpful to remember that we are modest (for example) or not modest momentarily. There is a tendency to evaluate ourselves based on the conventional language in suttas, but if we don't bear in mind that "we" are falling apart and rising again moment by moment in a conditioned way we can forget that these character traits are ephemeral. Of course, there are tendencies that develop, but maybe they are not as easy to identify as we think... For example, persistance. If we think that persistance is something that can be maintained constantly, we have it wrong. When the lazy periods come, as they inevitably will, we will browbeat ourselves and cling to the idealized self-image. Thus a step backwards in liberation from self-identity. On the otherhand, if we come to understand that the laziness, like the persistance, is conditioned nama rising and falling away due to conditions, we don't make a big story about it, don't condition more akusala by worrying. The "he does know want it to be known" is interesting too. The Buddha called sense of shame and fear of wrong-doing (hiri and ottappa) the guardians of the world.They are conditioned nama too. They rise and fall away, moment by moment, due to conditions, beyond our direct control. If we hold on to this "he does not want it to be known" in an unskillful way, there will be more clinging to idealized self-image, and instead of real modesty, there will be conceit. I guess. I think this sutta provides a good example of how understanding Abhidhamma a little bit helps us better understand all three baskets of the Buddha's teaching. Metta, Phil 44795 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > Dear Azita, > > We agree that dhammas come and go too quickly to be caught and > controlled and that it is impossible, for example, to direct sati to > a predetermined object. Isn't it also impossible to dictate the > nature of cetana? > > I suspect the doctor or nurse who risks deregistration for refusing > to perform [legal] operations is making the same mistake as the > insubordinate bomb-release officer. They might (or might not) be > conventionally praiseworthy, but they are ultimately misguided. > > Ken H > >=================== Dear Ken, I'd like to talk about this more. To be I am clear on your position, could we use some more examples. What if the doctor who is scheduled to perform the abortion refuses because he beleives it is bad kamma, is he also misguided? Or the pilot of the Bombing plane, misguided? Robertk 44796 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:23pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, -- Concept vs Reality buddhistmedi... Hi Htoo, Sukin, Larry, Niana, Kel, Phil and interested DSG members - Below is a collection of thoughts given by Larry, Sukin, Htoo and Tep on breathing as the object of Anapanasati. The difficulty apparently stems from the characteristics of breathing itself. > Larry: The last case is the interesting one. Conventional realty > (ideas) is what all our hopes and fears are based on. >So, insight into the ultimate nature of that could be said >to be getting at the heart of the problem. However, this >isn't just concept. It is concept that references reality >in some way. Even though breathing is a concept there is >a reality in there somewhere. In that mix of concept and >reality could be said to be a middle way between is and isn't. > Just thought. Sukin (message # 44761) : It is true that when conventional reality is the object of consciousness, many ultimate realities arise and fall that can be known with sati and panna. This is why I think, daily life is ideal for practice. But when will any level of sati and panna arise is beyond control, this is true for both samatha and satipatthana. So why choose a particular object such as breath? Is there some idea that this is more conducive to the arising of either or both levels of sati? The middle way is when a reality is the object of consciousness. Prior to this is the intellectual understanding of the nature of these same realities. I don't think it is as you state //in that mix of concept and reality//. Htoo (answering Sukin's reply to Larry) : I do accept 'sati' and 'panna' etc etc. But I was wondering why peope are reluctant to accept 'breathing meditation' as the genuine practice taught by The Buddha. Tep: May I try to answer Sukin's questions? The reasons that breathing is an ideal meditation subject for everybody (beginners to experts) are as follows: i) Availability. It is there all the time: unlike kasinas and dead bodies, for example. ii) Its beginning and ending points are clear. You don't have to make an effort to observe its arising and passing-away phenomena: unlike phassa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana. iii) At the end of the first tetrad [MN 118] - when breathing becomes so subtle as if it is disappearing - you're automatically in the second jhana with piti, sukha and tranquility (ekaggata citta). There the vedana and sanna will become clear to the yogi (the nama arises). Please also see the "Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life" thread, especially Htoo's and Nina's posts. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Sukin, Larry, Tep and interested members of DSG, > > Sorry to butt in between your discussions. > > Sukin asked, 'So why choose a particular object such as breath?' > > I think The Buddha preached in detail regarding 'the practice leading > to nibbana'. The Buddha preached to bhikkhus who would re-teach lay > people. > > The Buddha included everything related to 'the practice'. There are > many meditation centres and many have different traditions. Some were > accused as teaching the 'rituals'. > > Some people 'CUT OUT almost everything' from the teachings and > encourage to do 'JUST DAILY LIFE contemplation while driving, > swimming, playing, shopping, etc etc.' > > I do accept 'sati' and 'panna' etc etc. > > But I was wondering why peope are reluctant to accept 'breathing > meditation' as the genuine practice taught by The Buddha. > > May you be free from suffering. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing 44797 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:55pm Subject: Re: Asankhata philofillet Hi Larry, LIsa and all > how do > we relate with conventional realities, like crossing the street, in a > pathwise way? We want to reach _both_ the other shore and the other > curb. Maybe some wholesome (kusala) cetasikas are needed here. I have probably misinterpreted the passage, but I like this from Nina's "Perfections." : "During this pilgrimage we discussed the Buddha's perfections in relation to our lives. We have accumulated many kinds of defilements during countless lives and thus there are conditions for the arising of unwholesomeness, akusala, time and time again.?@Because of our defilements we do not have enough strength to walk the Path the Buddha taught and therefore * we need to accumulate all kinds of wholesome qualities which can support us while we develop right understanding of realites.*" Again, I am probably misinterpreting this, but I think it means that while we will not one day soon have enough wisdom to penetrate paramattha dhammas in a reliable way, and will therefore continue to be at the beck and call of our unwholesome conditions, cultivating kusala, performing deeds of merit and cultivating the 10 perfections even in a fairly conventional way can condition the strength and courage we need to develop deeper insight. So if we see a person crossing the street who needs our help carrying heavy bags or soemthing, we can help them out. In ultimate terms, there may be mana (conceit) or other akusala at work, but in conventional terms we are doing a deed of merit. If we stop and think about the ultimate realities behind all our deeds, we might miss an opportunity to practice perfections, to perform sila or dana. As always, I use "we" very loosely! I tend to think too much about panna, and not enough about sila and dana. As for knowing that a car is just a concept, obviously it's just a concept. As are people. Not only in Dhamma terms, but in scientific terms as well. Just atoms rising and falling apart. I don't know why there is any trouble with understanding that a person is a concept made up of realities. (Not suggesting that there is that trouble for either of you.) There is no reason that knowing a car is just rupa should lead us to getting run over any more than knowing that it is just atomic particles (or whatever the heck they are) does. And knowing that a "person" is made up of paramattha dhammas needn't cause us to be indifferent to them any more than knowing that they are carbon molecules or whatever. Do we get upset by this notion of "people are concepts" because we are subtly clinging to belief in an eternal self/soul? Metta, Phil 44798 From: "Philip" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:28pm Subject: Re: anusayas. philofillet Hi Sarah, and all > As for your question on motivations, I reflected on this and I think that > the inkling I have about the extent of moha (ignorance) for most the day > is what I always come back to. "Inkling" is a good word. I'm sure your inklings are clearer than mine, but I know what you mean. Sometimes for me, though, awareness of the extent of ignorance can be a condition for akusala contentment. I am drifting along in a sea of concepts, yes, but nothing much to do about it, so relax and think about realities... There have also been times of right motivation towards ignorance, and times of doubt, and times of restlessnes or fear or whatever. Even conceit - "I am wise enough to know how ignorant! Cool!" A moment of "understanding" ignorance can condition so many different kinds of cittas, depending on the level of and jati of the "understanding". I have faith that wholesome and ultimately helpful motivations will arise more often, gradually. > Look how often seeing arises -- so much so that we have an illusion of > 'light' appearing throughout the day, rather than just when visible object > is experienced. I was interested in the tape to hear Kh Sujin talking about how the citta is always dark, as dark as the first moment in the womb, the first bhavanga citta. It was a new idea for me. It feels very important but I am not trying *too* hard to understand it quite yet. Every time that tape comes around, there will be a slightly different degree of understanding. Metta, Phil 44799 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:07pm Subject: Review of Message # 27439/ Breathing Meditation buddhistmedi... Dear Nina, Kel, Larry, Htoo, James, Phil, Sukin, all other members - Let me remind you about the first two tetrads of the Anapanasati Sutta before going on with the review, which refers to them often. [MN 118] "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. (1) Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. Tetrad 1[kayanupassana satipatthana]: [I] "Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. [II] "Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. [III] "He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body,(2) and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. [IV] "He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication (the breath),(3) and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. Tetrad 2 [vedananupassana satipatthana]: [V] "He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to rapture, and to breathe out sensitive to rapture. [VI] "He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to pleasure, and to breathe out sensitive to pleasure. [VII] "He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication (feeling & perception), and to breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication. [VIII] "He trains himself to breathe in calming mental fabrication,(4) and to breathe out calming mental fabrication. --------------------------------- Notes (of the Translator -- Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu): 1. "To the fore (parimukham): The Abhidhamma takes an etymological approach to this term, defining it as around (pari-) the mouth (mukham). 2. "The commentaries insist that "body" here means the breath, but this is unlikely in this context, for the next step -- without further explanation -- refers to the breath as "bodily fabrication." 3. "In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications." 4. "Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications." -------------------------------- Tep: In message #27439 Nina explained "the experience of happiness with non-confusion" in the step [V] by using the Visuddhimagga's quotes from the Path of Discrimination as follows. Tep: So it is clear to me that rapture (piti) and pleasure (or "happiness", sukha) are experienced by adverting (avajjana citta) after the end of Tetrad 1, in step [IV] where the yogi attains second jhana (no more vitakka or vicara, dwelling in piti, sukha and samadhi). Also, there is striving or exertion (samma-vayama) along with samma- sati to attain samma-samadhi. After that, samma-nana arises along with a freedom from defilements. Nina then went on to discuss the remaining steps of the second tetrad : N: The realization of the characteristic of impermanence can only occur when the stages of insight knowledge have been developed, beginning with tender insight, as I said before. Thus both jhana and insight have been developed here. As to [VII] and [VIII], experiencing mental formation, citta sankhara, and tranquillizing mental formation: the Vis. VIII, 229, explains that mental formation pertains here to feeling and perception, sanna. The feeling is associated with perception (Vis. VIII, 230). The Vis. quotes here from the Path of Discrimination: Tep : I think the end result of step [VIII] is a "freed mind" --it is free from mental formations (citta-sankhara) -- and this freed mind is the basis of the third tetrad, the cittanupassana satipatthana. I am not sure whether this mind that is unaffected by cetasikas (sankhara ) is the same of citta in the fourth jhana or not. I might have stuck out my neck a little too far from my turtle shell again! So please feel free to tell me that you disagree. Respectfully yours, Tep ====== 44800 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:44pm Subject: Re: Asankhata foamflowers . > > I don't know why there is any trouble with understanding that a > person is a concept made up of realities. (Not suggesting that there > is that trouble for either of you.) There is no reason that knowing > a car is just rupa should lead us to getting run over any more than > knowing that it is just atomic particles (or whatever the heck they > are) does. And knowing that a "person" is made up of paramattha > dhammas needn't cause us to be indifferent to them any more than > knowing that they are carbon molecules or whatever. Do we get upset > by this notion of "people are concepts" because we are subtly > clinging to belief in an eternal self/soul? > > Metta, > Phil Dear Phil, I totally get what your trying to say. There surface level is conceptual but I want to get deeper than that. I don't just want to understand this on an intellectual level so I will post why I use breathing meditation and vipassana here. anapana-sati I used the breath to help me focus because it is always there and I can control it as I wish plus it can tell me what is happening within the mind/body before my brain can process data. It is directly linked to the unconscious. It moves differently when I am angry, happy, frustrated, content and so on. It is automatic and it can also be controlled it is an excellent focus point to work on training the mind to stay with one object. I use it to bridge from what I know to what I do not know. Saans dekhte dekhte, satya prakatata jaya Satya dekhte dekhte, parama satya dikh jaya." Observing respiration, truth manifests itself, Observing truth, the supreme truth manifests itself. I have seen the thread on staying in the present and that is what I use the breath for during my working day when I have to be social. During retreats away from social life I took time to train the mind to stay with breath and when I left retreat I could use this training to focus on breath during my day to stay in the present. I just bend mind to breath and lightly ride it or just watch it and I am there in the moment with the natural comings and going of the breath. No past, no future, no worry, no stress, just the breath coming and going, soft, harsh, hot, cold, tingles and so on I am there as it is and that is all. Mind wanders away I pull it back without aversion or craving because that is part of the process and wandering is not good or bad because within that wandering is the natural grace of being in the moment as I bend the mind back to breath. I am able to see how sensations of pleasure or displeasure arise with this pulling and I can let them go again and again and that breaks up those old habits that are some bothersome. I know with this wandering and coming back again and again I am clearing away old habits that keep me bound to endless wanderings. When mind is focused on breath even for a moment there is no generation of habits and huge clots of stored patterns are swept away. That is why it is so hard to stay with breath because even one moment of calm mind focused on breath digs way down into stored patterns of behavior that only come alive when triggered by certain events. It hurt me as they came up and passed away, burning, stabbing pains, old sores and illnesses came up and passed. Flooding thoughts, emotions colored from past events, lights, bliss, and visions came and went and I stayed with breath. I just wrapped myself tightly in my meditation blanket and I was a ship on a wild sea and breath kept me afloat as I stayed still and watched the comings and goings of the my breath. Eventually the storm passed and clear skies came and the next storm that came up I could sit stronger and focus longer and this happened over and over again. I understood impermanence by watching the breath or riding the breath through the flood of pleasure and pain that came and went within my mind and body. That is when I understood that nothing last very long and if I just let things pass as they come up I would be at peace. Phenomena=kayanupassana and vadananupassana. I need physical sensations to practice kayanupassana and I also to explore the body to see it's true nature through sensation, vadanaupassana. Vedana is physical and touches the mental through one of the four aggregates so mind and the body both have sensations. With sensation I can explore the mental and physical together. Kayanupassana investigating sensations helps me be in the moment by watching the coming and going of mind/body, it's gross and subtle vibrations. From the gross to the subtle sensation and then to bhanga-nana as the subtle sensations are left behind too. Here there is no coming or going just a fine vibration or humming and the body/mind is can't be found. Understanding comes when with calm mind I watch the dissolution of body/mind that what I thought is me isn't me at all and many habits are washed away to never come back again. Vedananupassana sensations lovely and horrible, subtle or gross come and go and by just watching them pass old habits of reacting, craving and aversion are broken. Watching over and over again this coming and going and reactions to what is gross and subtle I learned equanimity and during my daily life the heart stays still and the mind stays balanced. The field of mind: cittanupassana and dhammanupassana The body cannot be known without sensation and mind cannot be known without dhamma. Watching the comings and goings mental fabrications I get to know the mind and learn not to be moved by doubt, worry, procrastination, aversions and this makes room for me to work on the virtues and joy, peace of mind, steadiness, come to visit. They help me clear the way to go even deeper into investigations of what comes and goes in the mind. I need physical sensation to observe the mind because it's a bridge that connects me to the mental world of the mind. Dhammanupassana and Cittanupassana are needed to build that bridge. Kayanupassana, vedananupassana, cittanupassana, and dhammanupassana can be analyzed by watching body sensations. Hence my name foamflowers, impermeanent, ephemeral, dissolving and changing every moment, foam ridding the lip of a wave to land on the edge of the breach to dissolve as the wind touches it. With sensation and the breath I have the tools to make my way through the confusing world of sensation and thought and understand the truth of who I am, sampajanna. Satipatthana the establishing of awareness. After going through all that it is really hard for anything to move me and I can walk without moving! hahahaha Four Satipatthanas by just by watching the breath and observing sensation to it's most subtle of movement and then....well you just gotta be there to know!! And I can cross the street and really know what is going on.... With Metta, Lisa 44801 From: "seisen_au" Date: Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:59pm Subject: Kamma/Vipaka seisen_au Hi All, Looking through the Kathavatthu I came across a section on kamma/vipaka (p.309) where the Theras argue that rupa is not vipaka. Vipaka seems to be limited to mental phenomena. Question is: If rupa is not called vipaka (ie the rupa that arises with patisandi citta) what term is used for kamma produced rupa? Thanks Steve 44802 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 0:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma/Vipaka sarahprocter... Hi Steve, --- seisen_au wrote: > > > Hi All, > > Looking through the Kathavatthu I came across a section on > kamma/vipaka (p.309) where the Theras argue that rupa is not vipaka. > Vipaka seems to be limited to mental phenomena. .... S; Yes .... >Question is: If rupa > is not called vipaka (ie the rupa that arises with patisandi citta) > what term is used for kamma produced rupa? ... S: kamma produced rupa (kammaja rupa):-). ja means arisen from janati, to produce. kamma - originated from or produced by kamma. 9 kinds of kammaja rupas: eye-sense ear-sense smelling-sense tasting-sense body-sense femininity masculinity heart-base life-faculty See Appendix 111: Rupa in 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas' for more details. http://www.abhidhamma.org/ Metta, Sarah p.s when we were in Bkk, we had more discussion about your qu on the knowledge of impermanence for those from other traditions or those who had attained jhanas but not developed satipatthana. Conclusion: the knowledge is merely conceptual like now for most of us as you suggested, I think. I hope to add more in a Musing. Metta, Sarah ====== 44803 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:02am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (h) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Right understanding cannot be developed within a short time. The Buddha, when he was still a Bodhisatta, had to develop wisdom for aeons. He developed satipaììhåna with great patience and an unshakable energy. Energy was one of the “perfections” he developed together with satipaììhåna. He was willing to struggle and strive for an extremely long time, without becoming disenchanted with all the hardship and suffering he had to endure, all for the sake of the welfare of other beings. The Dhammasangaùi (§13), in its description of the “faculty (indriya) of energy”, speaks about “zeal and ardour, vigour and fortitude, the state of unfaltering effort”, “the state of unflinching endurance and solid grip of the burden.” The Bodhisatta, when he in his last life was sitting under the Bodhi-tree, had unflinching endurance, he did not let go of the task he had to fulfil. His vigour and fortitude were unsurpassed. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Twos, Chapter I, §5) that the Buddha said to the monks that he did not shrink back from the struggle and struggled on thus: * “Gladly would I have my skin and sinews and bones wither and my body’s flesh and blood dry up, if only I may hold out until I win what may be won by human strength, by human energy, by human striving”. By my earnest endeavour, monks, I won enlightenment, I won the unrivalled freedom from the bond. * ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44804 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visitors 1 (was: Musings10 .....) sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > Thanks for your quote of A Sujin's 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas'. > > But there is some differences what I and Mya Than San wrote. > > What Nina translated as 'visitors' are not cetasikas but they > are 'arammana'. They are knocking at the door of 5-sense-door- > adverting consciousness. > > What I wrote was visitors cetasikas. ... S: Yes, I apologise for any confusion. I was just continuing on the theme of visitors in the texts and reflecting on the wanted and unwanted visitors through the sense-doors by the time I wrote. As you said, in your good post, the reference to visitors (I think based on the sutta and commentary in AN 1,io that comes up so often here) is to the unwholesome cetasikas which arise and 'spoil' the pure cittas, like the bad children who spoil their parents' reputation. I believe the theme of visitors/guests comes up in different contexts - all useful. .... > Dosa comes without declaration. He destroys everything. He leaves > waves or after-effect. Dosa comes in, sometime, without any apparaent > causes and destroy the host's home. > > Like dosa, there are many other visitors. > > Maana comes in different forms. Example let us say 'I win the > lottery'. Maana arises immediately and many plans are racing. > > Another example; let us say 'I do not have anything to eat while > people nearby are eating greedily'. Maana arises. I do not have to > think of them whatever they are eating. I am 'me' and I have my own > body and I have my own kamma. > > Another visitor comes in. He is uddhacca. Let us say, 'I lost my > beloved daughter'. Among different visitors of dosa, lobha, moha > uddhacca does not leave for a long time. > > So what I referred was 'cetasikas'. What A Sujin and Nina referred to > was 'arammanas'. ... S: Yes. I find both sets of examples are useful to reflect on often. (I was actually glad to just find an excuse to quote the passage I did from 'Survey':-)). .... > > When I say 'cetasikas' are visitors, there may arise confusion. That > is who is 'host'. No one. But conventional beings, which is not a > reality. ... S: Citta is the host, but we forget that citta changes and is 'affected' all the time, depending on the visitors which arise. The citta itself is 'pure' or 'clear' (pandara). Apologies for any confusion. Metta, Sarah ======= 44805 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > S: Just to clarify, all kusala and akusala cetana are kamma, but the > question is whether cetana/kama which is not the degree of kamma patha > brings results. > > As you clearly explained in your post, DT335 (#44664), there are 4 > kinds of kamma: > > - regenerative kamma (janaka) > - supportive kamma (upatthambhaka) > - weakening kamma (upapiilaka) > - destructive kamma (upaghataka) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: <...> > I said all akusala cittas are akusala kamma. You said not all akusala > cittas are kamma patha. When I wrote on kamma in connection with > their functions or their regenerative power there are 4 kamma as can > be seen above. > > When kamma is not janaka kamma, it will not give rise to effect. So > some akusala cittas of non-kamma-patha will do other job of kamma > like supporting or reducing janaka kamma. ... S: At least we agree here now:-). I'll resist going into 'who said what':-). Maybe some misunderstanding which can happen easily, but at least all's clear for now. Thank you for clarifying. Metta, Sarah ======= 44806 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 0:33am Subject: External is also Internal ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The World 'Out there' is an Experience displayed 'In here': The young deity Rohitassa once asked the Buddha: Sir, is it possible - by travelling - to reach, see & know an end of the world, where one is not born, do not age, do not die, do not pass on, & is not reborn? The exalted Buddha promptly answered: That end of the world, where one neither is born, nor ages, nor dies, nor is reborn, can neither be reached, seen, nor known by travelling... However, friend, I say that without reaching this end of the world, there cannot be any Ending of Suffering... It is just here within this fathom long carcass, endowed with conscious experience, that the world emerges, manifests, ceases, and the Way leading to its Ceasing is made known... Therefore, knowing this world to be thus, the intelligent one reach the end of the world, by completing the Noble life! Having directly known the world's end, at ease in peace, there remains no longing for this or any other world...!!! Source: The Connected Discourses of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 62 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html This seems IMHO the most profound and far reaching statement in human history so far... The world start & ends within this very same frame of a conscious corpse... 600 years later the 'Mind-Only' idealists took this to the extreme by declaring: 'All is Empty'..., which though quite captivating, leads nowhere except ever deeper into the entangling jungle of speculative views... More about this 'quite deep middle way' tomorrow! Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44807 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:34am Subject: Visible like the Himalayas sarahprocter... Dear Jon & All, I gave you a card with a picture of the Himalayas on it from one of our trips. Inside I wrote out the following verse: ***** Dhp 304: “duure santo pakaasenti Himavanto’va pabbato Asant’ ettha na dissanti Ratti khittaa yathaa saraa” *** “Even from afar like the Himalaya mountain the good reveal themselves. The wicked, though near, are invisible like arrows shot by night.” (Narada transl. see*) ***** S: I was reflecting on how we not only experience what is ‘good’ according to our kamma, but also our ability to appreciate what is of value, too. The wisdom of the Buddha and the help of our kalyana mitta (good friends) can only be appreciated if there are the accumulations to do so. Here is the story: http://www.vipassana.info/k.htm#304 Verse 304, The Story of Culasubhadda *** >While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (304) of this book, with reference to Culasubhadda the daughter of Anathapindika. Anathapindika and Ugga, the rich man from Ugga, studied under the same teacher when they were both young. Ugga had a son while Anathapindika had a daughter. When their children came of age, Ugga asked for the consent of Anathapindika to the marriage of their two children. So the marriage took place, and Culasubhaddi, the daughter of Anathapindika, had to stay in the house of her parents-in-law. Ugga and his family were followers of non-Buddhist ascetics. Sometimes, they would invite those non-Buddhist ascetics to their house. On such occasions, her parents-in-law would ask Culasubhadda to pay respect to those naked ascetics, but she always refused to comply. Instead, she told her mother-in-law about the Buddha and his unique qualities. The mother-in-law of Culasubhadda was very anxious to see the Buddha when she was told about him by her daughter-in-law. She even agreed to let Culasubhaddha invite the Buddha for alms-food to their house. So, Culasubhadda prepared food and collected other offerings for the Buddha and his disciples. She then went up to the upper part of the house and looking towards the Jetavana monastery, she made offerings of flowers and incense and contemplate the unique qualities and virtues of the Buddha. She then spoke out her wish, "Venerable Sir! May it please you to come with your disciples, to our house tomorrow. I, your devoted lay-disciple, most respectfully invite you. May this invitation of mine bo made known to you by this symbol and gesture." Then she took eight fistfuls of jasmin and threw them up into the sky. The flowers floated through the air all the way to the Jetavana monastery and lay hanging from the ceiling of the congregation hall where the Buddha was expounding the Dhamma. At the end of the discourse, Anathapindika, the father of Culasubhadda, approached the Buddha to invite him to have alms-food in his house the following day. But the Buddha replied that he had already accepted Culasubhadda's invitation for the next day. Anathapindika was puzzled at the reply of the Buddha and said,"But, Venerable Sir! Culasubhadda does not live here in Savatthi; she lives in Ugga at a distance of one hundred and twenty yojanas from here." To him the Buddha said, "True, householder, but the good are clearly visible as if they are in one's very presence even though they may be living at a distance". Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: *** Verse 304. Like the Himalayas, the good are visible even from afar; like arrows shot in the night, the wicked are not seen even though they may be near. *** The next day, the Buddha came to the house of Ugga, the father-in-law of Culasubhadda. The Buddha was accompanied by five hundred bhikkhus on this trip; they all came through the air in decorated floats created by the order of Sakka, king of the devas. Seeing the Buddha in his splendour and glory, the parents-in-law of Culasubhadda were very much impressed and they paid homage to the Buddha. Then, for the next seven days, Ugga, and his family gave alms-food and made other offerings to the Buddha and his disciples.< Metta, Sarah * note the difference in the two translations of the verse. I’m guessing that the first (Narada’s) is correct, but maybe any Pali experts could verify this. ============== 44808 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter kenhowardau Hi Robert K, ---------------------- RK: > I'd like to talk about this more. To be clear on your position, could we use some more examples. ---------------------- I will tell as I see it. Feel free to make corrections. ---------------------------------- RK: > What if the doctor who is scheduled to perform the abortion refuses because he believes it is bad kamma, is he also misguided? ---------------------------------- I think he is misguided in thinking of kamma as a medical procedure rather than as a paramattha dhamma. In fact, he doesn't know which kamma is present at any one moment, and there is no efficacy in favouring one conventional story over another. The doctor's livelihood is to perform operations as [legally] directed by the hospital. He should carry on that way, confident in his understanding of kamma and vipaka. ------------------------------- RK: > Or the pilot of the Bombing plane, misguided? ------------------------------- It is the same thing, and I am sure it is possible for him to drop bombs without committing murder. We have suttas to show that a public executioner (for example), after one thousand executions, had still not broken the first precept (even though he didn't realise that at the time). Not being an ariyan, how was he to know when there was the intention to kill, as distinct from the intention to obey the king? It would be good if we could abstain from everything, but livelihood activities are inevitable. Even the livelihood of a monk can look bad - e.g., when he refrains from earning an income while his family are starving. Nina said she didn't like to speculate on hypothetical situations, and I assume it was for the above reasons. We are no more able to pick and choose our kamma than we are any other paramattha dhamma. Ken H 44809 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:58am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Tep, Larry, all, Long time no write :-), thank you for responding. I see that Tep and Larry have also responded, but I have time for only one post. So I will go straight to your comments. -------------------------------- Htoo: > Sorry to butt in between your discussions. => Sukinder: You are welcome to do so with any of my posts. -------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukin asked, 'So why choose a particular object such as breath?' > > I think The Buddha preached in detail regarding 'the practice leading > to nibbana'. The Buddha preached to bhikkhus who would re-teach lay > people. => Sukinder: I think you will agree that the only practice `leading to nibbana' is satipatthana and its development, leading to vipassana. Other kinds of kusala are indeed beneficial, the best of which is jhana. The Buddha encouraged all levels of kusala including dana, sila and samatha bhavana. But the important thing is that he also taught that all these are anatta, anicca and dukkha, that they are conditioned and beyond the control of this illusory `self'. To come to understand this, satipatthana is the only way. And when is the best time for this if not now? Certainly the idea of another time and place can only be a hindrance don't you think? So what according to you is the Dhamma taught by the Buddha to Bhikkhus who then were supposed to teach us? ------------------------------------- Htoo: > The Buddha included everything related to 'the practice'. There are > many meditation centres and many have different traditions. Some were > accused as teaching the 'rituals'. => Sukinder: My speculation is that Bhikkhus during and near the Buddha's time had the accumulations to develop samatha to the level of jhana. For them the life of the recluse was ideal for such practice and so everything was `natural' to them. They however more importantly, were also taught the practice unique to Buddha, namely satipatthana. This latter was indeed the sole reason for joining the Buddha's dispensation and not another. Satipatthana as you know encompasses all dhammas and this being the only one capable of leading to nibbana, the monks were encourage to understand all the other forms of kusala in light of this important teaching. This is why the Buddha would make reference to the different levels of jhana and the associated dhammas. It was so that the bhikkhu would understand them as only conditioned dhammas. I also speculate that because of the subtlety of this point that `all conditioned dhammas are to be known for what they are as they arise naturally by conditions' that in its place other more easily identifiable `methods' were created not so much by the layperson, but by the Bhikkhu Sangha which was by then already declining rapidly. The dhamma itself is hard to see and calls for an attitude of detachment, on the other hand outer activities and any inference we may draw from this is an object of lobha and wrong view. And this is why to the general audience during these times, this would prevail and come across as real dhamma. :-/ So no Htoo, whatever the meditation centres are teaching I do not take this as authority and indicative of real intent of the Buddha. And yes, I have no problem calling what they teach as `ritual'. -------------------------------- Htoo: > Some people 'CUT OUT almost everything' from the teachings and > encourage to do 'JUST DAILY LIFE contemplation while driving, > swimming, playing, shopping, etc etc.' => Sukinder: `Cut out'? What is cut out Htoo? Many on this list have frequently talked about the great value of every part of the Tipitaka and every bit of it. But I think the difference in our perspective is that you believe that some of the references to jhana practices for example, are prescriptions to be followed and developed in a proper formal way. And also it seems that you believe that vipassana can and must be developed by making up one's mind to formally sit. So it is understandable that you may single out `Daily life' and all associated activities as driving, swimming and so on, as just that. In other worlds for you `daily life' is one thing, and `formal practice' is another. From my perspective, `daily life' does not have anything to do with `ideally' doing anything. What ever arise is conditioned and can be understood. In other words it is not about *trying* to understand nama and rupa while swimming, playing, shopping and so on, but rather not to have wrong view about any of these conventional activities, thinking that one is better than another in terms of the development of satipatthana. The development of sati and panna should simplify our lives. By this I mean that increasingly what we used to take as real and eternal and subsequent stories we create around them, this tendency to complications should be reduced. I don't therefore see that creating yet new conventional situations and stories, i.e. someone who has to "do" something in order to develop understand, as leading to this end. I think that the world of the so called `meditator' becomes more cluttered with wrong view, though he may in conventional terms be `living simply'. ----------------------------------------- Htoo: > I do accept 'sati' and 'panna' etc etc. > > But I was wondering why peope are reluctant to accept 'breathing > meditation' as the genuine practice taught by The Buddha. => Sukinder: To me the four factors leading to sotapana seem to be a reasonable description of conditions leading to the development of right view. I don't see how concentrating on the breath can lead to this. I know that you are taking into consideration the associated passages in the Suttas that refer to being mindful of paramattha dhammas. But paramattha dhammas are no different while observing breath as they are when say, cooking. In the case of anapanasati, it is as pointed out by Jon and others, a description of an activity which is `natural' for a specific group of people. And no doubt this is kusala (samatha) different from cooking. But again samatha development for who? For most of us, whose accumulations of akusala far outweighs kusala and who may never in the past have developed anapanasati, we need to start from the very beginning. And this beginning is in `daily life' where our tendencies to both kusala and akusala can be observed unhindered by `self view'. The breath to someone of this very low level would be the object of akusala citta and this is what would be developing when intentionally concentrated upon. Breath can be a beneficial object only for developed panna and this panna has to develop from recognizing the danger in sense objects, and this must start now in daily life. On the other hand if someone has indeed developed the panna that sees acutely the danger in sense objects, say you Htoo, why associate this with the development of satipatthana? Maybe you could explain breath in terms of paccaya, I might then understand and be convinced about your position? ;-) Sorry for the long post. Metta, Sukinder 44810 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > >. We have suttas to show that a > public executioner (for example), after one thousand executions, had > still not broken the first precept (even though he didn't realise > that at the time). Not being an ariyan, how was he to know when > there was the intention to kill, as distinct from the intention to > obey the king? > >======== Dear Ken H, I think there is no sutta like this. You might be referring to the Dhammapada atthakatha? http://www.vipassana.info/f.htm "Tambadathika served the king as an executioner of thieves for fifty- five years; he had just retired from that post." One day he offered food to Sariputta ""After the meal, the thera taught him the Dhamma, but Tambadathika could not pay attention, because he was so agitated as he recollected his past life as an executioner. When the thera knew this, he decided to ask Tambadathika tactfully whether he killed the thieves because he wished to kill them or because he was ordered to do so. Tambadathika answered that he was ordered to kill them by the king and that he had no wish to kill. Then the thera asked, "If that is so, would you be guilty or not ?" Tambadathika then concluded that, as he was not responsible for the evil deeds, he was not guilty. He, therefore, calmed down, and requested the thera to continue his exposition. As he listened to the Dhamma with proper attention, he came very close to attaining Sotapatti Magga, and reached as far as anuloma nana.[*]"" This is not a case of Sariputta saying that there is no bad kamma from Tambadathika doing all those killings. Rather it is Sariputta skillfully showing that when wants to kill it is a worse deed than merely doing so because of duty. These differences in strength of kamma are becuase kamma is cetana. You could have 2 executioners doing the same job, killing teh same number of people, but one enjoys his work, the other does it only as a job. Both make akusala kamma but the one who enjoys it makes graver kamma. Or soldiers in battle- one is enraged and kills with great anger - heavier kamma than his comrade who kills reluctantly. Nevertheless both make akusala kamma patha. I write more later. Robertk 44811 From: "Lisa" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: Asankhata foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Lisa, > > You bring up a good question that I don't have a good answer for: how do > we relate with conventional realities, like crossing the street, in a > pathwise way? We want to reach _both_ the other shore and the other > curb. Maybe some wholesome (kusala) cetasikas are needed here. > > Larry Hi Larry, If you carry my groceries I will cook you dinner! We can cross the road together if you wish, I'll watch for the truck you carry the cans of beans for chili tonight...lol I can't go away to the mountains or retreat to monastic life so I find the sutra, the thread here right where I am and guess what...I found you and all these lovely people here on this board. How nice is that!? Life can be lovely because of friends. What is more wholesome than make life a work of art while we are here? Most of the time I just watch my sensations and look out for big mac trucks that might squash me. Sometimes if I pay attention I find the most amazing jewels along the way...take care and thank you for sharing! With Metta, Lisa 44812 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too buddhistmedi... Hi Nina (Sukinder, Phil, Larry and Htoo) - Thank you Nina for being interested in my thought about "the present moment and Satipatthana" that was pondered by Sukin in his message # 44751. There are three points that Sukin made in that message, namely : 1)" After all as you say, "reality is where the present is found". This I think relates to K. Sujin's reminder about the importance of knowing when there is sati and when there isn't. So we can keep talking about the importance of understanding the moment, but if there has not been any satipatthana, then the `present moment' will forever remain just an `idea'. " 2) "Even if this level of sati very rarely arises, one at least comes to understand the difference between wrong and right sati and also realities and concepts. So even though the moments of right practice are very rare, the inclination to `wrong' practice nevertheless decreases". 3) "It is better to have only intellectual understand of what is and what is not the path, than to follow the wrong one, mistaking it for the right. The latter I think, will forever miss the `present moment' but would of course think otherwise." Tep's comments: 1) Sukinder is right that the present moment has to be known with Satipatthana (which is equivalent to 'atapi, sati and sampajanna' on rupa, vedana, citta and dhamma with no attachment). Because "atapi, sati and sampajanna on rupa, vedana, citta and dhamma with no attachment" is very difficult to arise again and again in every moment, therefore it is easy just to talk about it. 2) I admire Sukin's wise comment that the very first thing to know is to "understand the difference between wrong and right sati". I think this idea is parallel to understanding what is unwholesome and what is wholesome, and such idea is a building block of sammaditthi as expounded by the Great Arahant Sariputta in MN 9 <"When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma." >. 3) Absolutely! But this intellectual understanding should not be mistaken as everything and be complacent with it. There is more that needs to be done. Respectfully yours, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sukinder, > We have been discussing knowing characteristics and the present moment on > and on. but here in your post you touch on the essence: knowing when there > is sati and when there isn't. > Very good to discuss and consider this more often. > I have put this post into my favorites file. > I am interested about what Tep, Phil and others will say! > Nina. > > op 25-04-2005 03:08 schreef Sukinder op sukinder@k...: > > > I was thinking about the meaning of `present moment' and how > > this is understood better as one understands dhammas. After all as you > > say, "reality is where the present is found". > > This I think relates to K. Sujin's reminder about the importance of > > knowing when there is sati and when there isn't. So we can keep talking > > about the importance of understanding the moment, but if there has not > > been any satipatthana, then the `present moment' will forever remain > > just an `idea'. Even if this level of sati very rarely arises, one at least > > comes to understand the difference between wrong and right sati and > > also realities and concepts. So even though the moments of right > > practice are very rare, the inclination to `wrong' practice nevertheless > > decreases. 44813 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visitors 1 (was: Musings10 .....) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo, snip..snip.. ... S: Citta is the host, but we forget that citta changes and is 'affected' all the time, depending on the visitors which arise. The citta itself is 'pure' or 'clear' (pandara). Apologies for any confusion. Metta, Sarah ======= -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply. It makes sense that 'citta' is appointed as 'the host'. It is 'hypothetical pure citta.' With Metta, Htoo Naing 44814 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunte r?= htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo, Snip ... snip ... ... S: At least we agree here now:-). I'll resist going into 'who said what':-). Maybe some misunderstanding which can happen easily, but at least all's clear for now. Thank you for clarifying. Metta, Sarah ======= -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah, Done! Yes. There is agreement and it works. So one point is done. I am also looking for the answer to the second point that is one of the topic of DSG. It is formal sitting. Or formal meditation. When I can find it (the answer) I will let you know like kamma matter of kamma and kamma-patha. With respect, Htoo Naing 44815 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: Dear Htoo, Tep, Larry, all, Long time no write :-), thank you for responding. I see that Tep .. .. snip ... snip ... The breath to someone of this very low level would be the object of akusala citta and this is what would be developing when intentionally concentrated upon. ... snip ... snip ... Breath can be a beneficial object only for developed panna and this panna has to develop from recognizing the danger in sense objects, and this must start now in daily life. On the other hand if someone has indeed developed the panna that sees acutely the danger in sense objects, say you Htoo, why associate this with the development of satipatthana? Maybe you could explain breath in terms of paccaya, I might then understand and be convinced about your position? ;-) Sorry for the long post. Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sukin, and interested members of DSG, Your post is excellent and non-tiring unlike other long-posters I met. I just snipped away as I agree all. Yes. Long time no write. I still remember that you invited me to DSG over 2 years ago. 'Breathing meditation' was taught by The Buddha. It is genuine teachings. It was taught several times or many times. But the problem here is our label of 'breathing meditation'. Mahasatipatthana sutta which is described in Mahavagga of Digha Nikaaya of Tipitaka definitely say about 'breathing'. Regarding teachers, they instruct how to follow the laid out path. There may be many traditions. I value all and I do not accuse of anyone's method not genuine. Example is Mahasi Sayadaw's method. When I studied what Mahasi Sayadaw taught, I did not find any flaws. But once I read someone wrote that 'commentaries such as Mahasi Sayadaw are not in line with Sutta teachings and the worst is Venerable Buddhaghosa, who wrote Visuddhimagga'. When these are read by someone who are stick to Suttas and who are not respected to Abhidhamma, they may remember who said above words. But these words did not appear in this forum of DSG, I think. Mahasi Sayadaw beautifully taught realities. In the opening part of 'how to meditate vipassana', Sayadaw said that 'Vipassana is the practice to see the realities of nama and rupa that arise within the body'. Mahasatipatthana Sutta is a valid sutta and in that sutta all the instructions necessary to be on the right path are described. Mahasi Sayadaw explained the sutta word by word with evidences from tipitaka teachings. I have already posted 'Mahasatipatthana and Vipassana'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44816 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:24am Subject: Htoo: "There was no Tep at all." [was Re:Breathing.] htootintnaing Dear Tep, Thanks for your questions. You wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Htoo, To say "there is no self " (because 'self ' is a consequence of atta- vadupadana : clinging to the personality view) is one thing, and to say that "there is noone who acts" is another thing. I want to make sure. So when you wrote that there was no Tep, which of the following did you essentially have in mind? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's quiz: a)There is no being who acts, just emptiness? So there is no Tep. b)The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences? Tep who made an error is not the same as Tep who wrote this message. Therefore, Tep is an illusion. c)There are only khandhas and dhatus, or rupa and nama, they are not beings? So Tep is just a label; there is no real person. d)Or, all of the above? Sincerely, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Am I right to put your questions into quiz form as above? After confirmation, I will answer. Or someone else may also answer if he or she finds your confirmed quiz. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44817 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:32am Subject: Dhamma Thread (337) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kinds of kamma depending on their regenerative power. 1. janaka kamma ( regenerative kamma, or reproductive kamma ) 2. upatthambhaka kamma( supportive kamma, or reinforcing kamma ) 3. upapiilaka kamma ( weakening kamma, or diminishing kamma ) 4. upaghataka kamma ( cutting kamma, or destructive kamma ) Janaka kamma and upatthambhaka kamma are discussed in the previous post. The third kamma in this series of regenerative kamma are upapiilaka kamma. This kamma, upapiilaka kamma is diminishing kamma or weakening kamma. This kamma reduce the effect of janaka kamma. When there is upapiilaka kamma, janaka kamma cannot give rise to its full effect. Upapiilaka kamma itself does not have the same power of janaka kamma. But when upapiilaka kamma exists, janaka kamma becomes weaken even though there will be its results. Upapiila kamma is like water in case of burning fire. The function of fire is to burn whatever it meets. So fire will destroy everything on his way. But when there is water, fire cannot burn completely. Water does hinder the function of fire. Like this simile, when there are janaka kamma and at the same time when there are upapiilaka kamma, then janaka kamma cannot give rise to their full results or their full effects. This happen because of the presence of upapiilaka kamma, whose function is to diminish others' kamma or to weaken others' kamma. Even though there are diminishing kamma like upapiilaka kamma, janaka kamma are still capable of giving rise to their effect. But the effects are not in full term. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44818 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:10am Subject: Htoo: "There was no Tep at all." [was Re:Breathing.] A Quiz! buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - I couldn't help laughing when I saw the label, " Tep's quiz." > Htoo: > > Am I right to put your questions into quiz form as above? After > confirmation, I will answer. Or someone else may also answer if he or > she finds your confirmed quiz. > Sure, put the questions up as a quiz. But, of course, there will be no grading of any answers by me! Hey, if Nina says " I am not teaching", then I can say that I am not grading. I am looking forward to see your interesting answer and analysis, Htoo. Respectfully, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Thanks for your questions. > > You wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > To say "there is no self " (because 'self ' is a consequence of atta- > vadupadana : clinging to the personality view) is one thing, and to > say that "there is noone who acts" is another thing. > > I want to make sure. > > So when you wrote that there was no Tep, which of the following did > you essentially have in mind? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Tep's quiz: > > a)There is no being who acts, just emptiness? So there is no Tep. > > b)The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences? > Tep who made an error is not the same as Tep who wrote this > message. Therefore, Tep is an illusion. > > c)There are only khandhas and dhatus, or rupa and nama, they are > not beings? So Tep is just a label; there is no real person. > > d)Or, all of the above? > > Sincerely, > > Tep > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 44819 From: "Lisa" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Analyse meditation with Abhidhamma foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Lisa, > > I'm really very impressed at the way you've clearly come from other > schools or disciplines of Buddhism but are eagerly picking up all the > Theravada lingo and fitting in so well here and joining in all the > discussions. You make many excellent comments too. > > Dear Sarah, Thank you you are so kind and helpful. My teacher who was a Zen Abbot from Korea and never taught me his tradition instead his teacher a very old man in his eighties that interviewed me said I must learn from the root of Buddhas teachings the Pali Canon. I don't think I have a tradition. I studied the Pali Canon and certain suttas plus practiced anpanasati, vipassana, and metta meditation for ten years before I started my study of Mahayana doctrine and sutra. My Dhamma teacher Sunim had me study the history and culture of Gotama in India so I could understand the difference between culture and Dhamma and what Gotama was pointing to on an intellectual level. Sunim told me it was important to know what one was going to meditate on before they actually started meditation. He stressed the understanding of Equanimity to me because I was very emotional at that time. I had never done any meditation before so this was all new to me the discipline of the mind was what I wanted and that is what I got. I'm still that little red-necked girl from the West Coast near Mt. Hood that likes to go barefoot in the summer but now I don't lose my temper if I stub my toe! Let me tell you, understanding equanimity just on an intellectual level helped me stick it out on my first retreat...I stuck to the ground like a pole was nailing me to the ground! An interesting meditation for me is to hug those I like or don't like and try and view sensation and breath without judging or reacting out of habits. I don't go hugging everyone but I also do this when I'm talking this is the hardest one for me to stay with. I get lost easily when I talk!!! With Metta, Lisa 44820 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Jhana & Abhidhamma, vañcana dhammas. matheesha333 Hi Evan, Sorry for the late reply. Here some info on the centre. Your link was correct. The centre runs courses every 2 weeks, twice a month, every month. Each bach consists of about 20-30 practitioners. Participants are assigned to a meditation instructor and they will look into your progress. There are two instructors who can guide you in English. The Day is from 4.00 to 21.00 with two vegetarian meals and a snack in the evening. Plenty of time for personal meditation practice, apart from the two group sessions during the day. Time will be allocated to discuss your progress with your instructor. Chanting also takes place but is optional. The practice methods are tranquility (includuing cultivation of jhana) training followed by insight (vipassana). They use Mindfulness of Breath, Metta meditation, Body contemplation, and Vipassana for this purpose. It is free of charge. Most practitioners achieve quite a lot including the 4 jhanas and the insight knowledges -with proper practice of course. metta Matheesha 44821 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:56am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (h) buddhistmedi... Friend Sarah (any interested members are welcome)- So, what do you think we the worldling followers should do ? a) Accumulate the paramis little by little like the Buddha and those great Arahants did (before they met the Buddha). Never look beyond day-to day, moment-to- moment practice of Satipatthana. Never concern ourself when panna will arise, or how it is being developed, because panna and any conditioned dhamma cannot be controlled. Do not concern if we can or cannot eradicate all the defilements in this life. Never think whether or not we have been doing the right things and are making progress in the Dhamma. Just let it be. Never try harder, because it is lobha and moha directed. b) Learn and know all dhammas (the bodhipakkheya dhammas) that are needed to help us become at least Sotapanna. Then practice according to the Eightfold path to perfect the path factors, and never "shrink back from the struggle and struggle on" to develop the "faculty(indriya) of energy", based on "zeal and ardour, vigour and fortitude, the state of unfaltering effort", with "unflinching endurance" until the goal is attained in this very life. Or even if we may not attain the goal, at least we would be well prepared when death comes. c) Whatever theme that is most suitable to each individual, which may be a combination of a) and b) above. Respectfully. Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > Right understanding cannot be developed within a short time. > The Buddha, when he was still a Bodhisatta, had to develop > wisdom for aeons. He developed satipaììhåna with great patience > and an unshakable energy. > (snipped) > We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Twos, Chapter I, §5) that the Buddha said to the monks that he did not shrink back from the struggle and struggled on thus: > * > "Gladly would I have my skin and sinews and bones wither and my > body's flesh and blood dry up, if only I may hold out until I win what > may be won by human strength, by human energy, by human striving". > By my earnest endeavour, monks, I won enlightenment, I won the > unrivalled freedom from the bond. > * > ***** > [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 44822 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:12am Subject: Htoo: "There was no Tep at all." [was Re:Breathing.] htootintnaing Dear Tep, As confirmation has been done by you, I will put your questions into the following format. The original theme derives from your words 'Tep was wrong' when I said Nina was not wrong etc and I wrote that there is no Tep at all. Now your questions are set up into this format; Tep's quiz: a)There is no being who acts, just emptiness? So there is no Tep. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You said you are not grading as Nina said she is not teaching. Now I will answer and I may be wrong, may be right, may be partly wrong or partly right. Answer to a) a) No. There is no being from the start. That is why I said 'there is no Tep at all. But I am not using 'emptiness'. I think 'emptiness' is not Theravadan. As there is no being, we do not need to think out 'who acts'. As there is no being, there is no Tep at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's quiz b) b)The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences? Tep who made an error is not the same as Tep who wrote this message. Therefore, Tep is an illusion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer to b) These sentences are complicated. But when I read your quiz b) what I see is ; There is no one. So there is no one to act. So there is no one to experience. As there is no being, there is no one who made an error. As there is no one, there is no comparison between 2 non-existences. Even the above message of your quiz is just nothing but 'rupa' which comes in the form, shape, light. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's quiz c) c)There are only khandhas and dhatus, or rupa and nama, they are not beings? So Tep is just a label; there is no real person. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer to c) True. This is a real quiz. The whole message is true. Quiz a) and b) are not genuine quiz. Because there is no clean cut right or wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's quiz d) d)Or, all of the above? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Answer to d) False. As quiz a) and quiz b) are not true quiz, all cannot be right and all cannot be wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's conclusion: Sincerely, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's conclusion: With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Am I right to put your questions into quiz form as above? After > confirmation, I will answer. Or someone else may also answer if he or > she finds your confirmed quiz. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 44823 From: nina Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:56am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 154, 155, and Tiika. nilovg "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 154, 155. Intro: Among the sobhana cetasikas that arise with the first type of mahaa-kusala citta accompanied by paññaa, there are five inconstant (aniyata) cetasikas and these are: (xxxii) compassion, (xxxiii) gladness, (xxxiv) abstinence from bodily misconduct, (xxxv) abstinence from verbal misconduct, (xxxvi) abstinence from wrong livelihood. As we read in the Vis. (Ch XIV, 133): --------------- Text Vis.154: (xxxii)-(xxxiii) 'Compassion' and 'gladness' should be understood as given in the Description of the Divine Abodes (Ch.IX,92,94,95), except that those are of the fine-material sphere and have attained to absorption, while these are of the sense sphere. This is the only difference. ------------------ N: Compassion (karu.na) and gladness (sympathetic joy, muditaa) accompany the mahaa-kusala citta when there is an opportunity for their arising. They do not arise at the same time. They are directed towards living beings. Compassion has the characteristic of wanting to allay someone else¹s suffering. There may also be aversion about someone¹s suffering, but that is not compassion. Sympathetic joy is the appreciation of someone else¹s good fortune or his wholesome qualities. At that moment there is no jealousy. ------------- Text Vis.: Some, however, want to include among the inconstant both lovingkindness and equanimity. That cannot be accepted for, as to meaning, non-hate itself is lovingkindness, and specific neutrality is equanimity. ------------------ N: The cetasikas adosa and tatramajjhattataa (equanimity), arise with every sobhana citta. Thus, they are not among the inconstant cetasikas. They are among the four divine abidings when they have the specific qualities of mettaa and equanimity that are directed towards living beings. ------------ Text Vis. 155: (xxxiv)-(xxxvi) 'Abstinence from bodily misconduct': the compound kaayaduccaritavirati resolves as kaayaduccaritato virati; so also with the other two. But as regards characteristic, etc., these three have the characteristic of non-transgression in the respective fields of bodily conduct, etc.; ------------------ N: The Tiika elaborates on the objects of transgression as being someone else¹s life, wealth or spouse. It is misconduct to take the life, possessions or spouse of someone else. -------------------- Text Vis.: they have the characteristic of not treading there, is what is said. -------------------- N: Abstinence from wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood do not tread ot trespass on each other¹s field. Thus, when there is abstinence from wrong speech, there is not at the same time abstinence from wrong action. Each citta has only one object at a time. The three abstinences are also called right speech, right action and right livelihood. ------------------ Text Vis.: Their function is to draw back from the fields of bodily misconduct, and so on. They are manifested as the not doing of these things. Their proximate causes are the special qualities of faith, conscience, shame, fewness of wishes, and so on. They should be regarded as the mind's averseness from evil-doing. ---------------- N: When one of the abstinences arises with mahaa-kusala citta, there are also confidence in wholesomeness, shame of akusala and fear of blame, and many other sobhana cetasikas. When there is fewness of wishes, one does not think of one¹s own gain or well-being, and this is also a proximate cause for abstention from evil. -------------------- The Tiika explains the difference between abstention from evil, virati, and shame and fear of blame, hiri and ottappa. Hiri and ottappa do not commit evil because of disgust (jigucchana). The Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 142, states about hiri and ottappa: Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too nilovg Hi Larry, op 26-04-2005 01:34 schreef LBIDD@... op LBIDD@...: > Of course attachment > should be experienced with the same nonattachment as the object of > satipatthana. N: Right, it *is* an object of sati of satipatthana. Nina. 44825 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati and no sati, Sukin # 27400, Too nilovg Hi Tep, op 26-04-2005 15:10 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > There are three points that Sukin made in that message, namely : > > 1)" After all as you say, "reality is where the present is found". > This I think relates to K. Sujin's reminder about the importance of > knowing when there is sati and when there isn't..... > 2) "Even if this level of sati very rarely arises, one at least comes to > understand the difference between wrong and right sati and also > realities and concepts. ..... > 3) "It is better to have only intellectual understand of what is and what is > not the path, than to follow the wrong one, mistaking it for the right. .... > Tep's comments: > > 1) Sukinder is right that the present moment has to be known with > Satipatthana (which is equivalent to 'atapi, sati and sampajanna' on > rupa, vedana, citta and dhamma with no attachment). Because "atapi, > sati and sampajanna on rupa, vedana, citta and dhamma with no > attachment" is very difficult to arise again and again in every moment, > therefore it is easy just to talk about it. ---------- N: We should go more into the matter: when is there sati, when is there not. We do not have to think of the four Applications, we do not have to think of being without attachment. Sati may arise or it may not, we never know, and we cannot plan for it. We are usually absorbed in thinking of concepts. I was cutting vegetables and Lodewijk was playing the piano. I thought of the melody, was thinking about it (pled plen). But there was also sound, I could not help it. This is only an example, sati may arise or it may not. Sound is a rupa and it is different from thinking of music or the melody. We can consider this, since we heard this again and again, and in this way it sinks in. I licked my finger and happened to taste the flavour of the green leaf. Sati may arise or it may not. Tasting is nama, different from flavour, different from thinking what it is. It is most important not to plan anything, because that will always be done with clinging to an idea of self. There can be thinking of nama and rupa, noticing them and sometimes awareness. In this way we shall find out ourselves when there is sati and when there is not. Nobody else can tell us. But let us remember: sati may arise or it may not. It has its own sweet way as Jon likes to say. -------- T: 2) I admire Sukin's wise comment that the very first thing to know is > to "understand the difference between wrong and right sati". I think this > idea is parallel to understanding what is unwholesome and what is > wholesome, .... ----------- N: I just want to add : we have to discern when subtle lobha plays us a trick and makes us believe that there is right awareness, whereas in reality there is only clinging to a false idea of awareness. We may not even notice this. ---------- T 3) Absolutely! But this intellectual understanding should not be > mistaken as everything and be complacent with it. There is more that > needs to be done. ------------ N: Only one characteristic of either a rupa or a nama appears at a time, not a concept of a whole. not a story. When we truly understand intellectually at first that rupa does not know anything, and that nama is the element that knows, there is the right foundation. What follows will come because of its own conditions, and not because of our doing. Nina. 44826 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:30pm Subject: Re: sati and no sati, Sukin # 27400, Intellectual Understanding buddhistmedi... Dear Nina (Sukin, Htoo, Phil, James, Larry and others) - Thank you much for another opportunity in dhamma discussion with you. I know that there are some stubborn issues that refuse to go away. N: We are usually absorbed in thinking of concepts. I was cutting vegetables and Lodewijk was playing the piano. I thought of the melody, was thinking about it (pled plen). But there was also sound, I could not help it. ... ...< Only one characteristic of either a rupa or a nama appears at a time, not a concept of a whole, not a story.> T: The above example -- thinking about the melody (concept) instead of the sound (reality) -- simply explains why at that moment there can be no sati about a characteristic of the sound. It is because your attention was on the melody - plain and simple! Another example you gave was on flavor (pannatti) versus taste (a nama); it was a good one. ----------------------------------- N: It is most important not to plan anything, because that will always be done with clinging to an idea of self. There can be thinking of nama and rupa, noticing them and sometimes awareness. In this way we shall find out ourselves when there is sati and when there is not. T: I can see that planning anything (mental formations) would result in losing sati-sampajanna on the realities in the present moment. But I am not sure how clinging may get involved in any planning activity as long as it is done offline (i.e. while not contemplating a reality). I heard you mentioned that lobha might play a trick on us - but I am not sure how it might happen. ---------------------------------------- N: We should go more into the matter: when is there sati, when is there not. We do not have to think of the four Applications, we do not have to think of being without attachment. T: I see your point that whenever we fail to have sati (on characteristics of a rupa or a nama) in the present moment, then our Satipatthana practice is in vain. However, I think the present moment is too small to accomodate thinking of all four foundations of mindfulness. I can do that kind of thinking only when I am reading or pondering. I think the causality knowledge that vedana conditions attachment (upadana) together with an awareness of the danger of not letting go are very important for direct knowing (e.g. see MN 149). Don't you think so? N: When we truly understand intellectually at first that rupa does not know anything, and that nama is the element that knows, there is the right foundation. What follows will come because of its own conditions, and not because of our doing. T: I agree with the first sentence, Nina. But the second sentence is not convincing. I think such understanding is not a panna-bala, so it may stop at the "rightfoundation" level - you can't fly to the moon on a helicopter. Can you show by an example how such intellectual understanding will fly high to the lokuttara level? To explain why I have been stubborn, let me quote from the Visuddhimagga as follows: Concentration is for the purpose of correct knowledge and vision, correct knowledge and vision is for the purpose of dispassion, dispassion is for the purpose of fading away [of greed], fading away is for the purpose of deliverance, deliverance is for the purpose of knowledge and vision of deliverance, knowledge and vision of deliverance is for the purpose of complete extinction [of craving, etc.] through not clinging. [Vism. I, 32]. The intellectual understanding can't even give us the kind of concentration that leads to dispassion. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > op 26-04-2005 15:10 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > There are three points that Sukin made in that message, namely : > > (snipped) > ------------ > N: Only one characteristic of either a rupa or a nama appears at a time, not a concept of a whole. not a story. When we truly understand intellectually at first that rupa does not know anything, and that nama is the element that knows, there is the right foundation. What follows will come because of its own conditions, and not because of our doing. > > Nina. 44827 From: "mnease" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhanas, to Mike. mlnease Hi Nina, Replying very late, sorry-- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 3:58 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhanas, to Mike. M: I hope Nina can tell us if I've understood this correctly, as I really don't understand jhaanacittas either. N: I don't either and I tell you why. I enjoy the good things of life: music, paintings, a nice house, good food, good company, etc. But, but: we have to rmember that the aim of the jhanas is being removed from the sense objects and the enjoyment bound up with them. If we do not have this as our goal, I do not think jhana can be developed. We have to be very sincere and truthful with regard to our intentions, otherwise we delude ourselves all the time. If a person dedicates himself to samatha only for a limited time jhana cannot be attained. He has to drastically change his lifestyle, he should not enjoying sense objects anymore. M: Right, I think this is well born out by the texts. Moreover, great pañña and also mindfulness are necessary to know when there is calm and when there is clinging to the result of the development of samatha. M: Right-- One has to be mindful of and directly understand the cetasikas which are the jhanafactors such as applied thinking and sustained thinking. One has to know when rapture, piiti, is kusala and when it accompanies attachment. If paññaa is not keen one may take for jhana what is only a kind of trance that has nothing to do with the purity of kusala jhanacitta. In order to abandon some jhanafactors in order to attain higher jhanas, paññaa has to investigate the jhanafactors and know them very precisely. This has to be investigated at each stage of jhana, not merely at the fourth stage. He has to have the masteries, vasiis: entering jhana whenever he wants, emerging from it whenever he wants, etc. When someone truly has accumulations for jhana, he can use jhana as a base of insight. But one should not underestimate the development of samatha to the degree of jhana. M: Understood and agreed--or the great rarity of the conditions for doing so, as I understand it. mike 44828 From: "mnease" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma challenge 4 mlnease Hi Nina, Still catching up: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 3:21 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma challenge 4 > There isn't a certain order of mindfulness, there is no rule. > In the Visuddhimagga it is said that some consider dhammas as the eighteen > elements (Ch XVIII, 9 and so on), some as the twelve aayatanas, some as the > khandhas. This is very personal, it depends on the individual's > accumulation. When we read these texts it seems only theory, and it seems > that a certain order is given. We have to think of the order of teaching, > adapted to the individual's inclination. > The Tiika explains that one first knows realities by inference and later on > by direct experience. Interesting--theory first, then practice...? mike 44829 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:25pm Subject: Htoo: "There was no Tep at all." [was Re:Breathing.] buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - Thank you a whole lot for playing my quiz game with me - just for a little laugh. -- So, your selection is c) Tep is just a label. There is no real Tep. -- You were right about a) that it was based on the sunnata concept. But there is a Theravada doctrine on emptiness too. Nyanatiloka says the following: (quoted Vis.M. XXI, 55), it is said: "Eye ... mind, visual objects ... mind-objects, visual consciousness ... mind-consciousness, corporeality ... consciousness, etc., are void of self and anything belonging to a self; void of permanency and of anything lasting, eternal or immutable.. They are coreless: without a core of permanency, or core of happiness or core of self." -- The quiz part b) "The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences?" is based on the concept of kamma. In SN XII.46 (Annatra Sutta) a brahman asked the Buddha : "Is the one who acts the same one who experiences [the results of the act]?", and our Great Sage answered : "To say, 'The one who acts is the same one who experiences,' is one extreme." The brahman then asked further, "Then, is the one who acts someone other than the one who experiences?". And, as you may expect, the answer was the same, i.e. it was another extreme ! I prefer a) and c) over b), but d) just doesn't make sense - plain and simple. Respectfully yours, Tep [If one's mindfulness is established & unmuddled; if one's body is calm & unaroused; if one's mind is centered & unified: then whatever body position one is in (walking, standing, sitting or lying down), the person with such ardency & concern is called continually & continuously resolute, one with persistence aroused.] {Adapted from Iti IV.12; Iti 118} ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > (snipped) > Tep's quiz: > > a)There is no being who acts, just emptiness? So there is no Tep. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > You said you are not grading as Nina said she is not teaching. Now I > will answer and I may be wrong, may be right, may be partly wrong or > partly right. > > Answer to a) > > a) No. There is no being from the start. That is why I said 'there is > no Tep at all. But I am not using 'emptiness'. I think 'emptiness' is > not Theravadan. As there is no being, we do not need to think > out 'who acts'. As there is no being, there is no Tep at all. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Tep's quiz b) > > b)The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences? > Tep who made an error is not the same as Tep who wrote this > message. Therefore, Tep is an illusion. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Answer to b) > > These sentences are complicated. But when I read your quiz b) what I see is ; > > There is no one. So there is no one to act. So there is no one to > experience. As there is no being, there is no one who made an error. > As there is no one, there is no comparison between 2 non-existences. > > Even the above message of your quiz is just nothing but 'rupa' which > comes in the form, shape, light. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Tep's quiz c) > > c)There are only khandhas and dhatus, or rupa and nama, they are > not beings? So Tep is just a label; there is no real person. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Answer to c) > > True. This is a real quiz. The whole message is true. Quiz a) and b) > are not genuine quiz. Because there is no clean cut right or wrong. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Tep's quiz d) > > d)Or, all of the above? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Answer to d) > > False. As quiz a) and quiz b) are not true quiz, all cannot be right > and all cannot be wrong. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 44830 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 kenhowardau Hi Charles, I was saying: ----------------------------- > > At any point in time, including now, there are really only paramattha dhammas. The reason for studying the Buddha's teaching is to know those dhammas. ------------------------------ To which you replied: ----------------------------------------------- > To me, the paramittas are six in number and they have nothing to do with reality or nature. They are about mental factors like generosity. -------------------------- 'Paramattha dhammas' is the Pali name for 'absolute realities.' So, rather than 'nothing to do with reality' they are 'everything to do with reality.' They are mental phenomena and physical phenomena (in Pali: namas and rupas). There are three kinds of nama. They are consciousness (citta), mental factors (cetasikas) and Nibbana. There are twenty-eight kinds of rupa, which include all the objects of sense consciousness and the physical bases of contact. There are six types of citta. They are the five sense consciousnesses and mind consciousness. And there are fifty-two types of 'cetasika.' They are sanna (perception), vedana (feeling), cetana (volition), phassa (contact), lobha (attachment), alobha (non- attachment), . . . . and so on. At any one moment in time there is one citta and a small number of cetasikas plus one or more rupas, and that is our entire world. The Buddhist practice is to directly know one of those namas or rupas, as it exists in the present moment. When we do that, we know the world as it truly is and we lose our attachment and infatuation for it. ------------------------------ <. . .> C: > Then please define/explain, in plan English, saddha, vicikiccha, adosa, dosa, and anatta. ------------------------------ The first four are cetasikas, and the fifth (anatta, soullessness) is one the inherent characteristics of cetasikas. (It is also an inherent characteristic of cittas, rupas and Nibbana.) An ordinary person who is untrained in the Dhamma can know about faith, doubt, harmlessness, hatred and other aspects of every-day life, but he does not know them as they truly are. In the absolute reality taught by the Buddha, there are phenomena with the same general description as certain every-day concepts, but which have their own absolute existence - independent of any person who might think about them. As conditioned realities (conditioned paramattha dhammas), they arise, perform their functions and desist in the shortest possible period of time. And so they cannot possibly be directly known to anyone who is not extremely well trained in the Dhamma. That is why the way to enlightenment is in learning about paramattha dhammas and understanding how they exist here and now. Ken H 44831 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:41pm Subject: Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 philofillet Hi Charles, Ken and all > > To me, the paramittas are six in number and they have nothing to > do with reality or nature. They are about mental factors like > generosity. > -------------------------- Charles, you're probably thinking of the paramis. They are six in Mahayana, 10 in Theravada. As you say, mental factors, but the mental factors are realities as well. Metta, Phil 44832 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 7:38pm Subject: Re: Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life - 5 Questions philofillet Hi all I'd like to try to answer these questions - it really does help me to develop my understanding. I hope other people (especially those with faith in Abhidhamma) will give feedback so it doesn't have to fall on Nina. Thanks in advance. > 1) When seeing now, is there ekaggata cetasika? What is its function? There is ekagatta cetasika with every citta - it is one of the universals. We can say ekagatta's function is to concentrate, but I think there is another way to put it. I can't recall. I think as for characteristic or manifestation, there is a simile about ekagatta helping conascent states to blend together, the way bath salts (?) blend together in water. > 2) What is the function of ekaggata cetasika which arises with the > jhanacitta? What is its object? It's object is the meditation subject. I guess it's function is to help the other factors hold on to the meditation subject, moment by moment. (We would tend to think that concentration is something that is held on to over a period of time, but of course it rises and falls away moment by moment like any other cetasika, conditioned, beyond our direct control.) > 3) What is the function of ekaggata cetasika arising with the panna > (wisdom) of the Eightfold Path which realizes a characteristic of nama > or rupa? What is its object at that moment? Is this where the object is either anatta, dukkha or annica, depending on the accumulations of the person? No, I guess not, that is related to the last javana of a lifetime. So isn't the object just the nama or rupa that is penetrated by panna, assisted by ekagata and the other universals and some particulars such as virya and vitaka? > 4) Why is mindfulness of breathing one of the most difficult subjects of > meditation? I guess one problem is that because the breath is so easy to control, it can lead to deepening of self-view, when people who don't have the proper conditions try to exert control through mindfulness of the breath, perhaps bringing a reassuring sense of well-being and control over akusala, but at what cost in the long term? > 5) What is the difference between samma-sati (right mindfulness) in > samatha and samma-sati in vipassana? What are their respective > objects of awareness? In the former, the objecet is the meditation subject. In the latter, it is a parammatha dhamma, a nama or rupa seen with panna. I have learned (not through expereince) that the former will help to subdue defilements temporarily, but they will arise again when conditions permit. The latter is more helpful in the long run, because it can condition the eradication of defilements. I can't remember just how a moment of panna helps to eradicate defilements, but if it doesn't I want my money back. > > I think Phil, Sukin and Htoo will be glad to answer these questions > because they strongly relate to the ongoing discussion on breath > meditation. I am the wrong person to talk about meditation. For me, there are not the proper conditions for breath meditation or for seeking jhanas. But as I have learned, never say never - we should not set limits on the way we expect the path to develop for us. That is another thing that is beyond our control to do. Conditions understood with wisdom. Metta, Phil 44833 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:26pm Subject: Mindfulness of breath in daily life? ( was Re: Asankhata philofillet Hi Lisa Thanks for describing your meditation. You write with such confidence and enthusiasm. I can get an idea of how the benefits you gain from meditation have a great influence on the people in your life. Since I am not now a meditator and have never studied with a meditation teacher, please feel free to disregard my comments. And perhaps if you can encourage me about the benefits of meditation, it will help condition a return to the meditation mat for me! :) > I used the breath to help me focus because it is always there and I > can control it as I wish Isn't the point of the Buddha's teaching to move beyond controlling things, to understand anatta? Is this a technique that you use now in anticipation of letting it go when it is no longer necessary? I mean, I can't imagine sotapannas go through daily life using the breath as a mindfulness device in the way you describe. Should we develop practices that the enlightened ones (sotapannas and beyond) would not engage in? I am talking about the daily life pratices you describe, not your meditation. >plus it can tell me what is happening within > the mind/body before my brain can process data. Can't we develop insight directly into what is rising and falling in the mind, body without relying on the breath to tell us? I know the former is a difficult task but if we approach it with patience won't it lead us more deeply towards detachment from what is happening within the mind/body? Those are kind of rhetorical questions, I know. And I am nowhere close to directly understanding realities - it is all still intellectual for me - so I am not one to talk. > It is directly linked > to the unconscious. It moves differently when I am angry, happy, > frustrated, content and so on. This is interesting. I can see how the breathing mindfulness you do could help you to be emotionally healthy - I can see that. And emotional health is important for ourselves and the people around us. But wouldn't it be better to patiently develop direct understanding of anger, aversion, bliss etc - they are realities whose chracteristics can be experienced - without going throught the breath as bridge? If we are seeking true liberation, shouldn't we be able to experience and see through whatever comes our way, no matter how unpleasnt or unwholesome, see thorugh it and now it for what it is (impermanent, suffering and anatta) without fending it off by intentional, unnatural techniques. I think of that beautiful sutta about the lotus growing in the muck. All the pleasant and unpleasant sensations, feelings etc that we go through are material for the development of understanding. I know that you say you return to the breath without aversion, so you are not being knee-jerk about it, but still.... Just some thoughts from someone who doesn't meditate formally but is interested in hearing about the way people do it. And obviously your practice is well established and bringing you benefits so you can easily disregard my comments. (As you say "you gotta be there to know") Thanks, and keep coming with your energizing posts! Metta, Phil 44834 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of breath in daily life? ( was Re: Asankhata lbidd2 Phil: "I am nowhere close to directly understanding realities " Hi Phil, Just an idle thought. Not understanding realities...is a reality. Larry 44835 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness of breath in daily life? ( was Re: Asankhata lbidd2 Hi Phil, Another thought. If directly understanding realities is understanding realities without concepts then we all misunderstand realities conceptually but understand realities directly. Larry 44836 From: "seisen_au" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kamma/Vipaka seisen_au Hi Sarah Hmm, well that would make sense :-)) Thanks Steve > > what term is used for kamma produced rupa? > ... > S: kamma produced rupa (kammaja rupa):-). > 44837 From: "Philip" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:35pm Subject: Understanding realities ( was Mindfulness of breath in daily life) philofillet Hi Larry I think I'll rename this thread. It's a fundamental topic that is always good to reflect on. > Another thought. If directly understanding realities is understanding > realities without concepts then we all misunderstand realities > conceptually but understand realities directly. But I guess there are different levels of understanding, so we can understand a reality - a universal cetasika like sanna for example - intellectually (i.e conceptually) without understanding it directly. So not understanding it directly doesn't necessarily mean misunderstanding it? To me , misunderstanding implies that we are led into a trap and wrong practice, but even if understanding is only intellectual it can keep us out of trouble. Misunderstanding vs. not understanding yet? More important is this "direcly understand realities." To tell the truth, though I throw that phrase around so easily, I don't yet understand what it means to understand a reality directly without thinking about it. By the time I am aware of anger, say, of its characteristics when it arises, there is *always* some degree of thinking involved, or so it seems to me. Citta processes are so incredibly fast, and I am proliferating before I know it. But this is not something to fret about. There are some things we don't have the conditions to know yet. I liked that previous post - even knowing that we don't understand realities is a reality. True! But still thinking for me... Metta, Phil 44838 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > ---------------------------------- > RK: > What if the doctor who is scheduled to perform the abortion > refuses because he believes it is bad kamma, is he also misguided? > ---------------------------------- > > I think he is misguided in thinking of kamma as a medical procedure > rather than as a paramattha dhamma. In fact, he doesn't know which > kamma is present at any one moment, and there is no efficacy in > favouring one conventional story over another. > > The doctor's livelihood is to perform operations as [legally] > directed by the hospital. He should carry on that way, confident in > his understanding of kamma and vipaka. > >=========== Dear Ken, I assume you agree that a sotapanna would never perform an abortion operation? Yet a sotapanna has no wrong view and profound insight into anatta. So I can't follow why you think a putthujana doctor who has some understanding of kamma/vipaka and anatta should do the operation. Surely the more understanding a doctor has the less keen he would be to follow the directions of the hospital? Kamma is not a matter of whether a service is legal or illegal. Robertk 44839 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:24pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 178 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (i) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Many of the Buddha’s disciples developed the eightfold Path and attained enlightenment as well. However, they also had to accumulate right understanding during countless lives in order to attain enlightenment. When we read about the lives of the Buddha’s disciples in the Thera-therí-gåthå (Psalms of the Brothers and Sisters) we see that they also, like we, had periods of slackness with regard to the development of satipaììhåna. However, ordinary events in their daily lives could stir them and remind them of the urgency to develop right understanding. We read that the Thera Uttiya (Thera-gåthå 30) had no purity of síla and could not attain enlightenment. The Buddha taught him in brief the purification of síla and the purification of view (1). Uttiya developed insight and then he became ill. The Commentary to the “Thera-gåthå” ( the Paramatthadípaní) relates: “In his anxiety he put forth every effort and attained arahatship”. He spoke the following verse with reference to the event which stirred him to continue to develop insight until he had reached the goal: * "Since sickness has befallen me, O now Let there arise in me true mindfulness. Sickness has now befallen me—‘t is time For me no more to dally or delay." * Sickness can remind us that we are not master of our body. What we take for “our body” and for “our mind” are only conditioned rúpas and nåmas which are beyond control. If we merely think of nåma and rúpa we will not know them as they are. Mindfulness of the reality which appears now is the only way to eventually know the true nature of realities. *** 1) See Kindred Sayings V, Kindred Sayings on the Applications of Mindfulness, Chapter I, §3,5,6. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44840 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (h) sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > Friend Sarah (any interested members are welcome)- > > So, what do you think we the worldling followers should do ? ... S: With respect, I think there is already a problem with the question – it is the very view of *us*, *doing* and *something* which takes the practice off-track. So when you give the following alternative/combined answers, there still seems to be an idea of doing or not doing something, an idea of selection or control over the presently arising dhammas. Please correct me if I’m wrong here. .... > a) Accumulate the paramis little by little like the Buddha and those > great Arahants did (before they met the Buddha). Never look beyond > day-to day, moment-to- moment practice of Satipatthana. <...> > b) Learn and know all dhammas (the bodhipakkheya dhammas) that > are needed to help us become at least Sotapanna. Then practice > according to the Eightfold path to perfect the path factors, and > never "shrink back from the struggle and struggle on" to develop > the "faculty(indriya) of energy <...> > c) Whatever theme that is most suitable to each individual, which may > be a combination of a) and b) above. <...> ***** > wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom <..> > > Right understanding cannot be developed within a short time. > > The Buddha, when he was still a Bodhisatta, had to develop > > wisdom for aeons. He developed satipaììhåna with great patience > > and an unshakable energy. > > > (snipped) > > > We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Twos, Chapter I, §5) that > the Buddha said to the monks that he did not shrink back from the > struggle and struggled on thus: > > * > > "Gladly would I have my skin and sinews and bones wither and my > > body's flesh and blood dry up, if only I may hold out until I win what > > may be won by human strength, by human energy, by human striving". > > By my earnest endeavour, monks, I won enlightenment, I won the > > unrivalled freedom from the bond. ..... S: I know this language all wounds like a Big Self taking a lot of action, developing wisdom and striving hard. However, like the entire Tipitaka, it has to be read in the light of anatta, in the light of sankhara dhammas, beyond anyone’s conrol of any kind. This is where I think the Abhidhamma helps a lot to show there are mere dhammas to be understood when the conditions are right, don't you think? Then, the keen right effort is there, developing at the same time already. Please feel very free to disagree with my comments and to add yours. I apologise if I’ve misunderstood your question. You’re doing a great job in leading other threads, such as the one on anapanasati. I like the way you try to include as many people as possible. Metta, Sarah ========= 44841 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 0:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter kenhowardau Dear Robert K, Thank you for your explanation. You said there was more to come, so I won't ask any questions just yet. So far, you have corrected at least one wrong statement - namely, where I said the excecutioner, Tambadathika, had not broken the first precept. It seems the texts don't say that at all. As to the doctor's ability to avoid akusala kamma by refusing a lawful direction in the course of his employment, I remain sceptical. It sounds like an attempt at control, but I admit I don't really know what I'm talking about. :-) Ken H. PS I notice you have already posted the follow up. Thanks. I will send this now and then have a closer look at what you have written. 44842 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 0:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too sukinderpal Hi Nina, Thanks for your encouragement. > We have been discussing knowing characteristics and the present moment on > and on. but here in your post you touch on the essence: knowing when there > is sati and when there isn't. > Very good to discuss and consider this more often. > I have put this post into my favorites file. Related to the above I was also thinking about the sati and panna of the level of pariyatti. I think many do not give this due consideration. Even here there can be sati of sati and a realization that this must be the precursor to satipatthana. Because of not appreciating this, there is then the idea that `theory' must somehow be put aside and instead a conscious effort must be made to be `practical'. I think this is `self' talking, drawing a line between theory and practice not by any understanding, but rather out of ignorance. In fact it is being `theoretical' about the whole thing ;-). What could be more powerful in terms of conditioning sati in the moment than the Buddha's words? Who is to say that this will or not condition satipatthana or even vipassana? The people who deny the efficacy of pariyatti don't realize that they are under the influence of their own internal dialogues conditioned by wrong view. And very often these are the same people who talk at lengths about this and that teacher, teachings, levels of insight, philosophies and so on, with little or no connection to what is being experienced in the moment. Also I was thinking about the connection of all this with the three rounds of saccannana, kiccannana and katannana, but maybe we can talk about this later. Metta, Sukinder. 44843 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 0:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Answers to Questions: Abhidhamma in Daily Life - Phil. nilovg Hi Phil and Htoo, op 27-04-2005 04:38 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > I'd like to try to answer these questions - it really does help me > to develop my understanding. --------------- N: Same, same. -------------------- >> 1) When seeing now, is there ekaggata cetasika? What is its > function? > > There is ekagatta cetasika with every citta - it is one of the > universals. We can say ekagatta's function is to concentrate, but I > think there is another way to put it. I can't recall. I think as for > characteristic or manifestation, there is a simile about ekagatta > helping conascent states to blend together, the way bath salts (?) > blend together in water. ------------------ N: yes, it ocnditions the associated dhammas to focus on the object that appears. Citta and cetasikas share the same object and ekagatta cetasika is the condition that they all focus on that one object. ------------ Ph: >> 2) What is the function of ekaggata cetasika which arises with the >> jhanacitta? What is its object? > > It's object is the meditation subject. I guess it's function is to > help the other factors hold on to the meditation subject, moment by > moment. (We would tend to think that concentration is something that > is held on to over a period of time, but of course it rises and > falls away moment by moment like any other cetasika, conditioned, > beyond our direct control.) N: I want to thank Htoo for his detailed explanation of jhanacitta. Yes, even when someone is "in jhana", there are many jhanacittas arising and falling away. ------------ Ph: 3) What is the function of ekaggata cetasika arising with the > panna >> (wisdom) of the Eightfold Path which realizes a characteristic of > nama >> or rupa? What is its object at that moment? -------------- N: With this question I wanted to indicate to rather pay attention to the mundane Path, not yet to the lokuttara Path. ------------ Ph: Is this where the object is either anatta, dukkha or annica, > depending on the accumulations of the person? No, I guess not, that > is related to the last javana of a lifetime. So isn't the object > just the nama or rupa that is penetrated by panna, assisted by > ekagata and the other universals and some particulars such as virya > and vitakka? N: The second part of your answer is correct. As to the first part, this is a more developed paññaa, I am always thinking of the first stage first. This does not refer to the last javana of a lifetime. At those moments any object can be the object conditioned by kamma. Ekaggataa cetasika assists paññaa together with the other cetasikas. Paññaa is the leader, the aim is to develop paññaa, to have more understanding of nama and rupa. We should not over- emphasize the role of concentration. ------------ Ph: > 4) Why is mindfulness of breathing one of the most difficult > subjects of meditation? > > I guess one problem is that because the breath is so easy to > control, it can lead to deepening of self-view, when people who > don't have the proper conditions try to exert control through > mindfulness of the breath, perhaps bringing a reassuring sense of > well-being and control over akusala, but at what cost in the long > term? ------------ It seems that one can control. The reason is that the rupa conditioned by citta we call breath is very subtle. Just now, can we say that it appears? We have some idea or concept of breath, but that is not that specific rupa conditioned by citta that appears. Just now, sound, visible object, hardness appear all the time, but not this subtle rupa that is breath. Some people, also before the Buddha's time, had accumulations to develop anapanasati, and for them this subtle rupa appeared. They had to go to a quiet place to cultivate this subject. -------------- Ph: >> 5) What is the difference between samma-sati (right mindfulness) > in samatha and samma-sati in vipassana? What are their respective >> objects of awareness? > In the former, the object is the meditation subject. In the > latter, it is a parammatha dhamma, a nama or rupa seen with panna. I > have learned (not through expereince) that the former will help to > subdue defilements temporarily, but they will arise again when > conditions permit. The latter is more helpful in the long run, > because it can condition the eradication of defilements. I can't remember just how a moment of panna helps to eradicate defilements, > but if it doesn't I want my money back. ---------- N: ;-)) Correct. A moment of paññaa eliminates just a tiny amount of wrong view and ignorance of realities. It is so short, we do not notice this, but gradually it is accomplished. We can notice this when we are in trouble or face sickness and death. There is more understanding, less the inclination to be drowned in the ocean of concepts. I shall write more on this. ---------- Ph: > I am the wrong person to talk about meditation. .... we should not set > limits on the way we expect the path to develop for us. That is > another thing that is beyond our control to do. Conditions > understood with wisdom. --------- N: Thank you Phil for the feed back. Nina. 44844 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 0:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, -- Concept vs Reality sukinderpal Hi Tep, Long time no write :-). My comments between yours. > Tep: May I try to answer Sukin's questions? The reasons that > breathing is an ideal meditation subject for everybody (beginners to > experts) are as follows: > > i) Availability. It is there all the time: unlike kasinas and dead bodies, > for example. The comparison you make to kasina and dead body shows that you are thinking in terms of samatha and jhana development. But even here, isn't the whole idea that these become the object of only `developed panna' and not mere conceptual object for any and every body? Besides the choice of object even for developed panna depends I think on temperament and past accumulations. So choosing breath for the above reason, would it be any good? > ii) Its beginning and ending points are clear. You don't have to make > an effort to observe its arising and passing-away phenomena: unlike > phassa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana. Any observation of rise and fall of this would be only conceptual. This is not the same as the rise and fall of paramattha dhammas. But we do like to think that we are having some understanding of the Tilakkhana, and this I think is dangerous. What you consider to be `clear beginning and ending points' have in fact involved billions of unobserved rise and fall, many of which are cittas rooted in moha. And often this precipitates in wrong view and further attachment to the practice. > iii) At the end of the first tetrad [MN 118] - when breathing becomes so > subtle as if it is disappearing - you're automatically in the second jhana > with piti, sukha and tranquility (ekaggata citta). There the vedana and > sanna will become clear to the yogi (the nama arises). Above you talked about the difficulty of knowing vedana, sanna, sankhara and so on, how can you then be sure of this, that any level of jhana has been achieved? Jhana is good and I congratulate and would anumodana anyone who achieves it. However isn't it more important to understand reality as it is? And if we do not know the realities in daily life, don't you think we should pause before thinking that we are close to achieving jhana? Happy to see that you are taking a very active part on DSG. :-) Metta, Sukinder 44845 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 0:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too sukinderpal Hi larry, > As to the question above, in addition to what Htoo said I would say a > mental discipline, attending to a particular object over and over, > brings up all sorts of attachments that want to resist that discipline. > We are probably not aware of how many latent attachments we are carrying > around and this is a good way to stir them up. Of course attachment > should be experienced with the same nonattachment as the object of > satipatthana. The idea of "mental discipline", how does this relate to the development of satipatthana? Also this seems to refer to the ability to remain on a single `object' instead of allowing the mind to drift to other objects. But how do you determine that this is with panna or even kusala, or in fact that it is not more akusala than when the mind jumps around? Also that which can be `attended to over and over' can only be a concept. One must make an assumption, how can this lead to knowing reality as it is? You say that akusala conditioned by the latent tendencies can be known, but don't you think that these will only be in the form of stories conditioned by the initial story of `using breath as a reference' and every other story centred on `self'? I doubt that this can lead to satipatthana but instead only `thinking' about kusala and akusala and this too, not necessarily with any level of panna. Metta, Sukinder 44846 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter kenhowardau Robert, You wrote: -------------------------- > I assume you agree that a sotapanna would never perform an abortion operation? > ------------------------- Sorry, I don't even concede that. In my extremely humble (not to be taken too seriously) opinion, a doctor who is a sotapanna could carry on like a normal doctor. However, he would never kill even if he wanted to (so to speak). He might go ahead with an abortion, but events would preclude murder. E.g., the foetus would coincidentally die before he made any contact with it. And the woman would be saved and everyone would be happy! :-) ------------------------------------------------------------ RK: > Yet a sotapanna has no wrong view and profound insight into anatta. So I can't follow why you think a putthujana doctor who has some understanding of kamma/vipaka and anatta should do the operation. ------------------------------------------------------------ Because I don't think conventional stories are reliable indicators of kamma and vipaka. What seems wholesome to one onlooker will seem unwholesome to another. Who is to know? If a Buddhist doctor has to resign on [speculative] matters of principle, there will eventually be no Buddhist doctors. There will be no Buddhist lawyers, accountants, teachers or anything (except monks and unemployed homeless people). The best we can do is learn the Dhamma, and trust in conditions. Ken H 44847 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: jhanas, to Mike. matheesha333 Hi Nina, Mike, Sorry for butting in. I would like to present some ideas for you to consider. N: > If a person dedicates himself to samatha only for a limited time jhana > cannot be attained. He has to drastically change his lifestyle, he should > not enjoying sense objects anymore. Mt: I think the texts can be interpreted in many (but of course limited) ways depending on ones inclination. I would like you to consider a different interpretation. That is that jhana can be attained by householders. They dont have to give up everything in life. But rather there has to be renunciation of sensuality in the mind, when sitting samatha practice is taking place (you might see you dhamma understanding rebelling right about now :) ). Ashubha meditation as preperation helps. N:> Moreover, great pañña and also mindfulness are necessary to know when there > is calm and when there is clinging to the result of the development of > samatha. Mt: You can know calm like you know you are sleepy. I dont think it needs great panna. It is a rested state of awareness, where your mind is not running about (one pointedness=ekaggatha) which naturally leads it to be in the present moment. There can be clinging even to the results of vipassana as is mentioned in the suttas. To completely avoid clinging is a bit unrealistic (im not talking about conditions while meditating here) while we are still in early stages of development. If anyone knows the dhamma well enough it can be known that jhana is not the goal and in the hundreds we have trained clinging has not been a practical problem. Desire towards the goal is one of the main motivators in a beginner. We cannot suddenly pretend to be arahaths in our practice. Progress will take decades and that is simply not necessary. If you see the timescales the buddha himself talks about you will see this is true. N:> In order to abandon some jhanafactors in order to attain higher jhanas, > paññaa has to investigate the jhanafactors and know them very precisely. > This has to be investigated at each stage of jhana, not merely at the fourth > stage. He has to have the masteries, vasiis: entering jhana whenever he > wants, emerging from it whenever he wants, etc. Mt: Yes, all this can be done. Initially the jhanas are weak (as again see training of Ven moggallana), then they become strong enough (with training for mastery) for jhaana factors to be investigated. > M: Understood and agreed--or the great rarity of the conditions for doing > so, as I understand it. Mt: I dont think it is that rare. Householders have successfully trained in jhana. This is simply a myth born in the times when the dhamma was weak even amongst monks and the only recourse was to analyse texts and draw inferences from them, which is fair enough. But now many new methods from the suttas are being tried and being revived. Some of those inferences will have to be coloured by what one sees in practice, after all there is a seperate category as bhavanamaya panna as well. metta Matheesha 44848 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:22am Subject: Htoo: "There was no Tep at all." [was Re:Breathing.] htootintnaing Dear Tep and interested members of DSG, Dhamma quiz: session Tep wrote: Dear Htoo - Thank you a whole lot for playing my quiz game with me - just for a little laugh. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Laughing men live longer. :)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: So, your selection is c) Tep is just a label. There is no real Tep. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course. And there also is no Htoo. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: You were right about a) that it was based on the sunnata concept. But there is a Theravada doctrine on emptiness too. Nyanatiloka says the following: (quoted Vis.M. XXI, 55), it is said: "Eye ... mind, visual objects ... mind-objects, visual consciousness ... mind- consciousness, corporeality ... consciousness, etc., are void of self and anything belonging to a self; void of permanency and of anything lasting, eternal or immutable.. They are coreless: without a core of permanency, or core of happiness or core of self." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know sunnata. But emptiness is wrongly understood by some. I think this is another subject of discussion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: The quiz part b) "The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences?" is based on the concept of kamma. In SN XII.46 (Annatra Sutta) a brahman asked the Buddha : "Is the one who acts the same one who experiences [the results of the act]?", and our Great Sage answered : "To say, 'The one who acts is the same one who experiences,' is one extreme." The brahman then asked further, "Then, is the one who acts someone other than the one who experiences?". And, as you may expect, the answer was the same, i.e. it was another extreme ! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When 2 extremes are really seen, there will not be any more wrong view. Otherwise one may still hold wrong view. At least a subtle wrong view of eternity or sassata ditthi. Example is 'yesterday Htoo' and 'today Htoo is the same'. In real sense, there is no Htoo at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: I prefer a) and c) over b), but d) just doesn't make sense - plain and simple. Respectfully yours, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: d) is a diluting question. Very good session of Dhamma quiz. If you synthesize further quizs, just compose simple sentences. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44849 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati and no sati, Intellectual Understanding, no 2 nilovg Hi Tep, op 27-04-2005 01:30 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > N: We are usually absorbed in thinking of concepts. I was cutting > vegetables and Lodewijk was playing the piano. I thought of the > melody, was thinking about it (pled plen). But there was also sound, I > could not help it. ... ...< Only one characteristic of either a rupa or a > nama appears at a time, not a concept of a whole, not a story.> > > T: The above example -- thinking about the melody (concept) instead > of the sound (reality) -- simply explains why at that moment there can > be no sati about a characteristic of the sound. It is because your > attention was on the melody - plain and simple! Another example you > gave was on flavor (pannatti) versus taste (a nama); it was a good one. > ----------------------------------- N: It is still a bit different. In between thinking sound appeared, and it could be object of a beginning awareness. Also thinking is real, it can be realized as nama. But so long as the first stage of vipassana has not been reached, it is difficult to penetrate the characteristic of nama. Thinking of concepts, yes, but understanding of thinking can be developed. No lack of realities! ---------- > N: It is most important not to plan anything, because that will always be > done with clinging to an idea of self. .... ----------- > T: I can see that planning anything (mental formations) would result in > losing sati-sampajanna on the realities in the present moment. But I am > not sure how clinging may get involved in any planning activity as long > as it is done offline (i.e. while not contemplating a reality). -------- N: No, even when planning, there is a reality, a dhamma. We can learn when there is clinging. Nothing is excluded, no need to go offline. ---------- T: I heard you > mentioned that lobha might play a trick on us - but I am not sure how it > might happen. > ---------------------------------------- N: More often than we would ever realize. Lobha is so deeply rooted, it is the second noble truth. Ignorance and clinging condition this cycle we are in. Lobha motivates us to try specific things to have more sati, to reach the goal faster. Is it not? ---------- > N: We should go more into the matter: when is there sati, when is there > not. We do not have to think of the four Applications, we do not have to > think of being without attachment. --------------- > T: I see your point that whenever we fail to have sati (on characteristics > of a rupa or a nama) in the present moment, then our Satipatthana > practice is in vain. ------------ N: I would not think in this way. Failing to have sati: no, I see it as sati that arises when there are the right conditions. That is: appreciating pariyatti in the way Sukin suggests. I do not think of failures, that seems like something that has to be induced by *me, me*. I cannot think along the lines of: , for the same reason. ----------- T: However, I think the present moment is too small to accomodate thinking of all four foundations of mindfulness. I can do that kind of thinking only when I am reading or pondering. ------------- N: If we understand that the four foundations of mindfulness are only a means for bringing us back to the present moment (kryang ralek) and to be aware of any nama or rupa that appears, it simplifies things. We do not have to know what application operates now. --------------- > I think the causality knowledge that vedana conditions attachment > (upadana) together with an awareness of the danger of not letting go > are very important for direct knowing (e.g. see MN 149). Don't you think > so? -------- It indicates that by learning to see: eye, visible objects, seeing, feelings etc. leads to liberation. The beginning is understanding nama and rupa now. ----------- > N: When we truly understand intellectually at first that rupa does not > know anything, and that nama is the element that knows, there is the > right foundation. What follows will come because of its own conditions, > and not because of our doing. > > T: I agree with the first sentence, Nina. But the second sentence is not > convincing. I think such understanding is not a panna-bala, so it may > stop at the "rightfoundation" level - you can't fly to the moon on a > helicopter. Can you show by an example how such intellectual > understanding will fly high to the lokuttara level? ------------------ N: See the sutta we just spoke about. It has to begin with the understanding of seeing, visible object, all five khandhas. Pañña cannot be a power in the beginning. It is a long process. ------------- T: To explain why I have been stubborn, let me quote from the > Visuddhimagga as follows: Concentration is for the purpose of correct > knowledge and vision, correct knowledge and vision is for the purpose > of dispassion, dispassion is for the purpose of fading away [of greed], > fading away is for the purpose of deliverance, deliverance is for the > purpose of knowledge and vision of deliverance, knowledge and > vision of deliverance is for the purpose of complete extinction [of > craving, etc.] through not clinging. [Vism. I, 32]. The intellectual > understanding can't even give us the kind of concentration that leads > to dispassion. N: Only paññaa leads to dispassion. By understanding realities as they are you will see that they are *only* nama, *only* rupa, only elements. As to this text, this is more complicated. Samadhi is not developed for its own sake, but it can support pañña to know realities as they are. It can serve as a minister. Concentration to what degree depends on the individual. Not everybody has to cultivate jhana. Besides, when insight grows, also right concentration grows, it is a factor of the eightfold Path. But this is a topic apart. Nina. 44850 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma challenge 4 nilovg Hi Mike, op 27-04-2005 01:51 schreef mnease op mlnease@...: N: The Tiika explains that one first knows realities by inference and later > on >> by direct experience. > > Interesting--theory first, then practice...? N: Sukin gave an interesting and very useful explanation about pariyatti leading to the practice. Pariyatti has far more implications than one would think at first. A beginning of freedom from the ocean of concepts! Applying the Buddha's words in contrarious situations. Seeing when we are thinking of events and stories, often upsetting us, and when we realize that thinking is *only* thinking. Nina. 44851 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati and no sati, Sukin # 27400, Intellectual Understanding nilovg Hi Tep, Sukin, Htoo and all, We have lively discussions these days. I try to combine several posts. op 27-04-2005 01:30 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: I know that there are some stubborn issues that refuse to go away. --------- N: I understand that when one has learnt specific things one my perhaps be shocked to hear other views that may seem to be so contrary to what one is used to. I appreciate it that Htoo spoke from his heart, saying: just awareness when cooking, swimming, and you cut out everything else. Good to consider this. Then Sukin answered that we have the whole Tipitaka. I did not keep these posts, but I like the dialogue. I like Sukin's recent post about having more appreciation of pariyatti as condition for satipatthana: I am not only thinking of cooking, swimming, no, the contrarieties of daily life is the test for understanding. We all have to face sickness, death or losses in life. How do we apply the Dhamma? I wrote to a friend who is confronted with sickness of a dear person: It is beneficial to have more understanding of thinking as a nama, even in theory. This helps us to apply the Dhamma. We hear: concept is different from reality, from paramattha dhamma, but we have to apply it. We can see the danger of drowning in the ocean of concepts, not knowing any way out, being totally lost. Thinking of situations and events is different from knowing realities one at a time as they appear through the six doors. Seeing the benefit of this can condition sati of satipatthana. (to be continued) Nina. > 44852 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:36am Subject: Dhamma Thread (338) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kinds of kamma depending on their regenerative power. 1. janaka kamma ( regenerative kamma, or reproductive kamma ) 2. upatthambhaka kamma( supportive kamma, or reinforcing kamma ) 3. upapiilaka kamma ( weakening kamma, or diminishing kamma ) 4. upaghataka kamma ( cutting kamma, or destructive kamma ) Janaka kamma, upatthambhaka kamma, and upapiilaka kamma have been talked in the previous posts. Still there left the fourth kamma in this group of kamma according to their causative power or regenerative power. This fourth kamma is called upaghataka kamma. This kamma is very powerful unlike other three kamma. Janaka kamma has the power or potential to give rise to its effect. Its weightage is supported by uptthambhaka kamma while upapiilaka kamma diminishes the power of janaka kamma. Unlike upapiilaka kamma, upaghaataka kamma completely abolish the existing kamma. Upaghaataka kamma eradicates all the potentials that exist in janaka kamma in question to the level that no trace of janaka kamma is left. Anyone or any being in any of 31 realms has many many existings or lives in the immesaurable rounds of rebirth cycle or samsara. When matured, being develops to highest level of panna or wisdom and becomes an arahat. As soon as arahatta magga nana arises all the existing 'kamma that may give rise to future rebirths' are totally abolished by arahatta magga nana's power. The cetana that arises along with arahatta magga citta is sahajaata- kamma and that kamma eradicates all the existing 'kamma that may give rise to future rebirths'. That cetana is kamma. But it arises and stays just for a citta-moment or a cittakkhana. But its shade or kamma follows all arising cittas till cuti citta of that arahat. At the end of cuti citta of arahat, samsara-long accumulations are all extinguished instantaneously. This kamma cut up all rebirth-giving kamma and it may be called as upaghaataka kamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44853 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:36am Subject: Musings11 - Samaadaana Siila (Resolution or Undertaking of Sila) sarahprocter... (This series of ‘Musings’ are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) Warning: long! *************************** Dear KenH, RobK, Nina, Chris, Azita & All, Sila is an aspect or foundation of all kinds of kusala (wholesome consciousness) – whether it be sila, dana or bhavana. Usually there’s no act of dana or bhavana, so the kusala is simply referred to as ‘siila’, for example when there’s kindness or helpful speech now. As Chris mentioned, we discussed “the difference between "Undertaking" and "Observing" the Precepts. Observing the Precepts was a moment of restraint, of right intention, kusala sila. When the citta is kusala at a moment of abstention from breaking the Precepts, that is when it accumulates, that accumulation is the Training.” Here she is referring to virati(abstaining/restraint) discussed in the last thread. There were also many references to ‘samaadaana siila’, the undertaking or resolution to follow sila, including the precepts. There were questions about following the 8 silas or precepts (abstaining from eating after midday, from wearing ornamentation and sleeping in a high bed in addition to the usual five). It was pointed out that these are not usually household precepts and once more it depends on our intentions for such undertakings, because we are not yet sotapannas. If we just follow any precepts and think that they will bring good results, it’s the same as in other religions when various rules are followed. It has no meaning in such a case. It was stressed that it doesn’t matter on what day or at what time there is the abstaining from unwholesome deeds or speech. The development of kusala now is more important than intending to keep any precepts in future, but feeling badly about doing so, or having frivolous talk, for example, while we attempt to follow them. As Chris mentioned we also discussed the more likely benefit of wisely considering the following 8 precepts which she quoted: >Four types of Right Speech: "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech." -- SN XLV.8 Three types of Right Action: "And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from unchastity. This is called right action." -- SN XLV 8 And Right Livelihood: "And what is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This is called right livelihood." - - SN XLV.8< ***** If we’re honest, how many kinds of sila do we follow without fail? Do we keep even the five precepts perfectly in all circumstances? If we are merely undertaking any precepts but without any understanding or other kusala cittas, what’s the use? It’s not ‘natural’ behaviour. An example was given of Thai school children who just repeat the undertaking (samaadaana siila) by rote memory. However, even a child may genuinely be determined not to hurt insects or animals or to see the harm in telling lies and to then really follow the good resolutions. Some of us may recall having had such spontaneous wholesome resolutions as children which we followed as a result of being inspired by something we saw or heard, rather than just repeating words or copying actions. It’s therefore not necessary to ask a monk, to tell anyone or to repeat any words. The samadana sila is quite different from merely reciting precepts or observing them when we visit a temple or on a moon day, for example. In the Buddha’s time, lay people didn’t just follow or recite the 5 precepts. There was no ritual involved. Instead they would take refuge in the Triple Gem with understanding which means they would abstain naturally, not following formalities. With the growth of wisdom and confidence in the Triple Gem, we will also inevitably follow this course by ‘sankhara dhammas’, according to conditions. In MN 46, the the Mahaadhammasamaadaana Sutta (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl), we read about right and wrong undertaking (samaadaana), rooted in right and wrong view: *** “Bhikkhus, for the most part beings have this wish, desire, and longing: ‘if only unwished for, undesired, disagreeable things would diminish and wished for, desired, agreeable things would increase!’ Yet although beings have this wish, desire, and longing, unwished for, undesired, disagreeable things increase for them and wished for, desired, agreeable things diminish.” We then read about the reasons. The ‘untaught ordinary person’ doesn’t know what should and should not be cultivated, followed and so on. The ‘well-taught noble disciple’ knows of course. It then refers to the four ways of right and wrong undertaking (samaadaana). Firstly the ignorant worldling undertakes what is painful now, such as the various kinds of misconduct with pain and grief and the result is further pain and grief by way of unhappy rebirth. Wrong view is evident. This is like drinking a bitter gourd mixed with poison. The colour, smell and taste are disagreeable and the result is deadly. The second way is like this, except that the undertaking is with pleasure and joy. The result is the same, however. This is like drinking a pleasant beverage mixed with poison. The taste is agreeable, but the result again is deadly. The third way is the abstaining from misconduct but experiencing grief and pain as a result!! However, the abstention is with right view and the results are favourable ones. This is like drinking fermented urine mixed with medicines for jaundice. The colour, taste and semell are disagreeable, but apparently the result is good! The fourth way is the same as this, except that the abstentions are undertaken with joy and pleasure. Again they lead to happy rebirths. This is like taking a mixture of curd, honey, ghee and molasses for dystenery. It tastes good and again results in good health. *** In other words, as I understand the sutta, the right and wrong view involved is very important. We may be inclined to point out the large number of rules or precepts which a bhikkhu must follow from the outset. There is, of course, a big difference in this regard between the bhikkhu’s life and the lay life because of the vinaya. A bhikkhu understands the value of the Patimokkha rules if he observes the vinaya. He has the accumulations to be able to lead such a life. If someone has very bad sila, what is the most useful undertaking or thing to do? It is still to development of the understading of dhammas (realities). We cannot get away from dukkha without the wisdom which sees how there are only passing cittas now at each moment, arising and falling in a split second. The same truths apply even at the moments of death or when we’re fast asleep. Without the development of such wisdom, we remain lost in samsara. Metta, Sarah ====== 44854 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: sati and no sati, Sukin # 27400, Intellectual Understanding htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Hi Tep, Sukin, Htoo and all, We have lively discussions these days. I try to combine several posts. op 27-04-2005 01:30 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: I know that there are some stubborn issues that refuse to go away. --------- N: I understand that when one has learnt specific things one my perhaps be shocked to hear other views that may seem to be so contrary to what one is used to. I appreciate it that Htoo spoke from his heart, saying: just awareness when cooking, swimming, and you cut out everything else. Good to consider this. Then Sukin answered that we have the whole Tipitaka. I did not keep these posts, but I like the dialogue. ... snip ... snip ... Seeing the benefit of this can condition sati of satipatthana. (to be continued) Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Sukin, and All, Thanks Nina for your message. There are many in the jungle. Among our discussion dialogues many points are very useful, I think. But I would say 'I salute The Buddha' 'I give my respect to The Buddha' 'I take The Buddha as my refuge'. I serious take 'The Buddha words'. With respect, Htoo Naing 44855 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:30pm Subject: The Deep Middle ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Profoundly Wise and Moderate Ontology: Buddha once said: Some recluses & priests declare these excessively speculative views: 'Everything Exists'; which is the one extreme (Sarvastavadin Eternalism).. Other recluses & priests declare a just as hypothetical opposite extreme view: 'Everything do Not Exist' (Sunyatavadin Annihilationism).. Avoiding both these extremes the Well-Gone-Beyond Buddha teaches this Dhamma from the Middle: When this is present, that also do exist. When this emerges, that also do arise. When this is absent, that neither exists. When this ceases, that also vanishes. From ignorance arises mental construction. From mental construction arises consciousness. From consciousness arises naming-&-forming. From name-&-form arises the six senses. From the six senses arises contact. From contact arises feeling. From feeling arises craving. From craving arises clinging. From clinging arises becoming. From becoming arises birth. From birth arises ageing, decay, sickness & death. From ageing, decay & death arises Suffering! This is the origin of this entire mass of Pain... When ignorance ceases, mental construction stops. When mental construction ceases, consciousness stops. When consciousness ceases, naming-&-forming stops. When name-&-form ceases, the six senses stops. When the six senses ceases, contact stops. When contact ceases, feeling stops. When feeling ceases, craving stops. When craving ceases, clinging stops. When clinging ceases, becoming stops. When becoming ceases, birth stops. When birth ceases, ageing, decay, sickness & death stops... When ageing, decay, sickness & death ceases, Suffering stops! This is the Disappearance of this entire mass of Misery & Pain... -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dig it! IMHO It doesn't come much Deeper than that ... The doors to the Deathless, thereby become Wide Open ... Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 44856 From: "AlanLam" Date: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:44pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too pubbarama Dear Sukinder, Bravo, I concur. Just sit and meditate daily without missing one day, based on Satipathana Sutta, wisdom does arise. And, I read in the web Forum that there are quite many academic dharma teachers does suffers in life due to their own analysis and sole opinion of the dharma they preach, but they do not meditate and practise. Is this the Karma effect ??? Is it true ???? I have yet to come across these academic professors. Metta karuna and may they all be well and happy. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: <...> > Sukinder: > I think you will agree that the only practice `leading to nibbana' is > satipatthana and its development, leading to vipassana. Other kinds of > kusala are indeed beneficial, the best of which is jhana. The Buddha > encouraged all levels of kusala including dana, sila and samatha > bhavana. But the important thing is that he also taught that all these are > anatta, anicca and dukkha, that they are conditioned and beyond the > control of this illusory `self'. To come to understand this, satipatthana is > the only way. And when is the best time for this if not now? <....> 44857 From: "AlanLam" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:00am Subject: Re: jhanas, to Mike. pubbarama Dear Matheesha, I too concur with you 100% all you have said below. If one were to; 1) Hold firmly the 5 precepts. 2) Able to master the Metta Karuna. 3) Meditate consistantly (breath or tummy up/down)for a period without missing one day's hard work, then; One could easily have transquility and contemplate the Vedhana, the Citta or the Sankharakhandas as it arises and ceased. Jhanas just comes by as a by product, do not grasp but note and be mindful of it. Soon one will stay in Upheka to it and in all pehonmenon. Plus the daily mindfullness of the 8 fold path for right speech, thoughts etc. One will reach the goal as a hard days' work is a day nearer to the goal. Best is to change places of meditation regularly, in seculded place or in the night in a quiet place as one has to overcome phenomenon. I once overcoming Fear with utmost Metta Karuna, willing to secrify one's life to the object of fear. On another occasion, in a secluded place meditating, I also overcome phenomenal fear that lead to better understanding Anatta. Who is at fear, if there's no self, ego or soul ??? Then, who see, hear, smell, taste, feel and think ???? It is thus void and empty. Metta karuna. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > <...> > Mt: I think the texts can be interpreted in many (but of course > limited) ways depending on ones inclination. I would like you to > consider a different interpretation. That is that jhana can be > attained by householders. They dont have to give up everything in > life. But rather there has to be renunciation of sensuality in the > mind, when sitting samatha practice is taking place (you might see > you dhamma understanding rebelling right about now :) ). Ashubha > meditation as preperation helps. > > N:> Moreover, great pañña and also mindfulness are necessary to know > when there > > is calm and when there is clinging to the result of the > development of > > samatha. > > Mt: You can know calm like you know you are sleepy. I dont think it > needs great panna. It is a rested state of awareness, where your > mind is not running about (one pointedness=ekaggatha) which > naturally leads it to be in the present moment. There can be > clinging even to the results of vipassana as is mentioned in the > suttas. To completely avoid clinging is a bit unrealistic (im not > talking about conditions while meditating here) while we are still > in early stages of development. If anyone knows the dhamma well > enough it can be known that jhana is not the goal and in the > hundreds we have trained clinging has not been a practical problem. > Desire towards the goal is one of the main motivators in a beginner. > We cannot suddenly pretend to be arahaths in our practice. Progress > will take decades and that is simply not necessary. If you see the > timescales the buddha himself talks about you will see this is true. <...> 44858 From: "Lisa" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:06am Subject: Mindfulness of breath in daily life? ( was Re: Asankhata foamflowers On Tuesday, April 26, 2005, at 10:26 PM, Philip wrote: [Phil] Hi Lisa [Phil]Thanks for describing your meditation. You write with such confidence and enthusiasm. I can get an idea of how the benefits you gain from meditation have a great influence on the people in your life. [Phil] Since I am not now a meditator and have never studied with a meditation teacher, please feel free to disregard my comments. And perhaps if you can encourage me about the benefits of meditation, it will help condition a return to the meditation mat for me! :) [Lisa] I used the breath to help me focus because it is always there and I can control it as I wish. [Lisa]I can make breath soft, hard, and hold it while swimming under water, that is the control I'm talking about, I'm not talking about the subtle level of sensation, which is there all the time coming and going and does not wait or run from anything. The reason breath is a very good object of meditation for me is an easy focus and this ability to control it on a surface level and then there is the most subtle of vibrations that is very hard to find. [Lisa] Breath seems to go away during meditation but it is still there it is so subtle I have trouble finding it. I have to be very still to see it when lets say the lights come or the meditation expands where there is nothing I can find to hook my focus on not even breath. So when that happens it's time for me not to focus on object not even breath I am not strong enough to find the more subtle sensations so I just focus being there at that subtle level without attaching to the moment with craving or aversion. I don't have the Abhidhamma name for it yet. But I am putting a list together of words I need to know. [Phil] Isn't the point of the Buddha's teaching to move beyond controlling things, to understand anatta? Is this a technique that you use now in anticipation of letting it go when it is no longer necessary? I mean, I can't imagine sotapannas go through daily life using the breath as a mindfulness device in the way you describe. Should we develop practices that the enlightened ones (sotapannas and beyond) would not engage in? I am talking about the daily life pratices you describe, not your meditation. [Lisa]plus it can tell me what is happening within the mind/body before my brain can process data. [Lisa]Sensation of breath comes up before mind can hook anything onto it for me it is my way of knowing without thought or concept. Oh by the way in the beginning I did have to control certain things on a surface level...lol and I still do, I like to talk and eat to much, until I could let them go, like my anger and fear or I would not be here talking to you, I would of ran away long ago. On the most subtle levels where things come and go quicker than a blink of an eye I do not control but I can control my fist from connecting with someones face. I had a very bad temper and I liked to throw things, shoes were my favorite things to throw! [Phil] Can't we develop insight directly into what is rising and falling in the mind, body without relying on the breath to tell us? I know the former is a difficult task but if we approach it with patience won't it lead us more deeply towards detachment from what is happening within the mind/body? Those are kind of rhetorical questions, I know. And I am nowhere close to directly understanding realities - it is all still intellectual for me - so I am not one to talk. [Lisa]The sensation of breath around nostril and upper lip is very fine and to just watch that for even a second grounds me to the Moment. For you Phil the object of meditation may be different. For me there is no effort to control with breath it is as it is just sensation. What is the difference between experience and knowledge on a sensual level? There is empirical knowledge through putting sense data into categories, which is logic (my limited understanding) and using reason to put together these categories in an agreeable picture that matches habits, memory and imagination, but is that reality? Understanding that reality is beyond logic and reason for me it is important and so I use bare sensation to keep me grounding in this understanding that I don't know in a logical or reasonable way. Critical thinking is very important to, I guess skill in means is putting these together so they work well as I cross the street. [Lisa]It is directly linked to the unconscious. It moves differently when I am angry, happy,frustrated, content and so on from my understanding there is a huge store house of past experiences far removed from our conscious level of knowing breath and sensation can be a portal or bridge to this so one can go and clean out all that stuff, I am sure there is an Abhidhamma name for this store house as well. Something else to look up! [Phil] This is interesting. I can see how the breathing mindfulness you do could help you to be emotionally healthy - I can see that. And emotional health is important for ourselves and the people around us. But wouldn't it be better to patiently develop direct understanding of anger, aversion, bliss etc - they are realities whose chracteristics can be experienced - without going throught the breath as bridge? If we are seeking true liberation, shouldn't we be able to experience and see through whatever comes our way, no matter how unpleasnt or unwholesome, see thorugh it and now it for what it is (impermanent, suffering and anatta) without fending it off by intentional, unnatural techniques. [Lisa]During my first ten day retreat the pain and visions plus bliss were overwhelming to me but I didn't want to let my teachers down by getting up and running away. When stuff would come up like pain or the vision of lights and I felt overwhelmed I would go back to breath instead of scanning for sensations. I found that alternating scanning and sensation took me to very subtle levels of sensation. With breath it is like a door or bridge to areas of myself I did not know before an access. Same with taste, hearing, skin sensation, and smells. I used them as bridges to explore parts of me that were hidden until I learned to find subtle sounds that are actually subtle vibrations, same with smell and taste, skin sensations and the things that come and go in the mind like the lights. I focused on those intently and watched the center of them and went to the most amazing places...hahaha thank goodness for equanimity. [Lisa] Side effect from all this work is physical and mental well being because I have a clearer picture of what I need to do to take care of myself. But that is not my goal it just happened naturally but there was an awful lot of effort involved and still is. It is hard work to stay healthy and equanimious. [Phil] I think of that beautiful sutta about the lotus growing in the muck. All the pleasant and unpleasant sensations, feelings etc that we go through are material for the development of understanding. I know that you say you return to the breath without aversion, so you are not being knee-jerk about it, but still.... [Lisa]Understanding on the level of sensation without hooking concept and reaction to them for me anyway is not related to empirical knowing and I don't have the right metaphysical words which, for me isn't useful and I can't go with you here. I think you need to sit down and watch breath and sensation at a retreat with a good teacher to really understand on a level where words don't go anymore. [phil] Just some thoughts from someone who doesn't meditate formally but is interested in hearing about the way people do it. And obviously your practice is well established and bringing you benefits so you can easily disregard my comments. (As you say "you gotta be there to know") Thanks, and keep coming with your energizing posts! Metta, Phil [Lisa]Phil I truly enjoy our exchange you make me reach out and try to explain what I thought I know and really I know nothing, but this is a blast, I really like working with you. Thank you so much! With Metta, Lisa 44859 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:59am Subject: Biological Beings, The Buddha and Cittas in a day htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The first consciousness comes as soon as we wake up. Depending on our habit, some can arise immediately from bed and start the day right away. Some go for a plan for the day while still in bed. And after a few minute when they finish their planning they arise from their bed and start the day. Some go wandering in thinking and some chase their dreams and some even fall sleep again for another dose. But finally they also have to arise from their bed and start the day. Some people are so busy that if the day is weekend day or holiday, they lie longer in bed and they will not arise for a long time and they will be going here and there by mind-travelling. Whoever does what, the day is already started as the first consciousness comes. This happens daily and the whole day ends up with drowsiness and falling asleep. This is normal for all sorts of human beings. This is because human beings are living in this world depending on their biological body. The Buddha Himself was living on biological body till He did parinibbana. As The Buddha was also a biological being, His body has to follow the rules of biology and genetics. The whole day ends up with last moment of manodvara vithi javana citta and sleeping starts with bhavanga cittas. In between are all a mixture of vithi cittas and bhavanga cittas. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44860 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:25pm Subject: Hi Sarah, all lone_renunciant Hello. I am writing this message to inform you all that I don't think this being a regular member of this discussion group is 'me.' At least for the present, I will not be checking here as the threads I start do not yield the good results I was expecting when I began them. Certainly it is due to some differences of view between myself and members on the list, some to my unfamiliarity with and lack of proficiency in the texts, and to some extent my inclination to be more of a dry poster than to have my questions and responses based on or affected by things I see or encounter in day to day reality. I will attempt to finish up some old threads, especially the ones with Sarah, and see how it goes from there. I don't think I'll be abandoning this group completely, but I don't think it will be my home away from home either. Regards, A.L. 44861 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:00pm Subject: Re: sati and no sati, Sukin # 27400, Intellectual Understanding buddhatrue Hi Nina, Nina: It helped me a lot to have Dhamma talks with Lodewijk about the ocean of concepts we drown in and about the Brahmaviharas, especially equanimity. It helps me to remember that kamma produces vipaaka, that we are heirs to kamma. Whatever gain or loss happens to us is conditioned by kamma. James: I agree so much with this, especially about the equanimity and kamma. Let me tell you a story: tonight I was walking home from the grocery store and I found a little kitten crying and mewing from the hood of a car. I know, it was a strange place to be, and I wondered how it got there. I thought that maybe it was left by its mother. I went over and petted the kitten and examined it a bit and saw that it was very dirty and had mucus coming from its nose and eyes; it hissed at me some while I petted it. I left it where it was and hoped the mother would be coming to get it soon. There are several cats who live on the streets here in Cairo (they eat the garbage from open bins). After going out with a friend, I came back home and it was dark. I decided to see if the kitten was still there or not (big mistake). The kitten wasn't on the hood of the car anymore but, following the sound of its mewing, I could see it underneath another car, by the tire, across the street. It was obvious to me that its mother wasn't coming for it. After much heart-wrenching pondering and decision making, I decided to leave it right where it was- even though I knew it will probably die. It was too sick and young for me to help it, and I have a cat already, so I couldn't really do anything. When I was walking up the many flights of steps to my apartment I was feeling lousy. I am a real animal lover and I hate to see any animals hurt or needlessly die. Even before this I was telling my friend how Australia is going to be culling the wild camel population by shooting them from helicopters. It is supposed to be a real blood bath and it just really bothers me to consider it (my friend told me they should just ship them to Egypt ;-). Anyway, so here I am, going up my stairs, feeling so horrible I can hardly stand it, and I suddenly wonder what the Buddha would do in this situation. Then it hits me: He would look at the situation with equanimity! He would know that it was that kitten's kamma to be where it is, and those camels's kamma to be where they are, and that he would see the situation with equanimity. That realization helped me a lot! Hope that you and Lodewijk find peace together in the face of your difficulties. I'm sending you good thoughts. Metta, James 44862 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too lbidd2 Hi Sukinder, Here are your questions and my answers. S: "The idea of "mental discipline", how does this relate to the development of satipatthana? L: Sila. S: "Also this seems to refer to the ability to remain on a single `object´ instead of allowing the mind to drift to other objects. But how do you determine that this is with panna or even kusala, or in fact that it is not more akusala than when the mind jumps around?" L: By looking. S: "Also that which can be `attended to over and over´ can only be a concept. One must make an assumption, how can this lead to knowing reality as it is?" L: The objects of satipatthana, e.g. breath, are not concepts. Attend to the breath over and over. S: "You say that akusala conditioned by the latent tendencies can be known, but don´t you think that these will only be in the form of stories conditioned by the initial story of `using breath as a reference´ and every other story centred on `self´?" L: I don't quite follow your question, but I would say desire can be known and it is a reality. S: "I doubt that this can lead to satipatthana but instead only `thinking´ about kusala and akusala and this too, not necessarily with any level of panna." L: If you really don't want to do this you could recognize and experience that aversion as aversion. Larry 44863 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Understanding realities ( was Mindfulness of breath in daily life) lbidd2 Hi Phil, How do you know you don't know? It's impossible. Phil: "I don't yet understand what it means to understand a reality directly without thinking about it." L: Before you think there has to be something to think about. That's it. There's no thinking without reality. It's all over the place. There might be a mythological assumption about the specialness of reality, a desire for it to be more than it is. A touch of coldness, the blue of the sky, a good feeling, love, recognizing a friend. Each one of these is the whole of reality. That's all there is. Larry 44864 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > -------------------------- > > I assume you agree that a sotapanna would never perform an > abortion operation? > > ------------------------- > > Sorry, I don't even concede that. In my extremely humble (not to be > taken too seriously) opinion, a doctor who is a sotapanna could > carry on like a normal doctor. However, he would never kill even if > he wanted to (so to speak). He might go ahead with an abortion, but > events would preclude murder. E.g., the foetus would coincidentally > die before he made any contact with it. And the woman would be saved > and everyone would be happy! :-) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Ken, I see. Ok let me try this one. Take a pest exterminator who sprays insects to (speculatively) kill them. Could a sotapanna do that job. Or could a sotapanna be the man who kills the cattle at a abatoir? Robertk 44865 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:53pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, -- Concept vs Reality buddhistmedi... [A reply to message #44844 ] Hi Sukinder - You asked many questions because of doubts or disbelief in the anapanasati specifically. I have prepared a summary of three very good readings on breathing meditation, and it is given below. This summary should educate you the necessary basic ideas that may help reduce your doubts.To actually reduce all your doubts there is no other way but practicing it yourself. (1) Why is breathing meditation very useful and recommended by the Buddha? [Samyutta Nikaya LIV.13: Ananda Sutta] "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference (foundations of mindfulness) to completion. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to completion. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to completion. (2) How is breathing mediation practiced and what does it bring? (Just only the first and second tetrad) [Meditation-expert Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani] "(I) When the beginning, middle, and end of the out-breaths and in- breaths have been clearly perceived, if the rough and coarse breaths do not become automatically calmed and allayed to the point of disappearance, then, in accordance with the text of the fourth section of the first tetrad of the sutta, where it is said, "As he exhales, he tries to allay and calm down the out-breath: as he inhales, he tries to allay and calm down the in-breath," a special additional endeavour must be made to make them gentler and gentler, and this must be pursued with resolution, not left unmindfully to take its own course. "In the method given in the Commentary, however, it is stated that the out-breaths and in-breaths become calmed down and allayed of their own accord even from the stage of counting, and in my own experience, I have come across persons whose breaths have automatically disappeared. "(II) I shall now show the second tetrad of the sutta which is to be attempted or practised in the fixing stage, the stage of the full absorption or jhana. The text states: 1. ' Experiencing rapture, I will exhale and inhale, thus he trains himself. 2. Experiencing happiness, I will exhale and inhale, thus he trains himself. 3. Experiencing the mental functions, I will exhale and inhale, thus he trains himself. 4. Allaying and calming down the mental functions, I will exhale and inhale, thus he trains himself '. "1. What is meant by experiencing rapture (piti-patisamvedi) is putting forth effort, when the counterpart sign appears, until the first and second jhanas are attained, in which rapture (piti) predominates. 2. What is meant by experiencing happiness (sukha-patisamvedi) is putting forth effort until the third jhana is attained, in which happiness (sukha) predominates. 3. What is meant by experiencing the mental functions (cittasankharam patisamvedi) is putting forth effort until the fourth jhana is attained, in which the mental function (cittasankhara) of equanimous feeling (upekkha vedana) predominates. 4. What is meant by allaying and calming down the mental functions (passambhayam cittasankhara) putting forth effort to allay and calm down the coarse feelings (vedana) and perceptions. "The Commentary associates this tetrad with full absorption in jhana, but the experience of rapture, joy, and calm is also associated with the access to jhana (upacara-jhana), attained after the first appearance of the counterpart sign. "This ends the second tetrad. [endquote] (3) Why did the Buddha recommend it? Why is it for realization of the present moment? The Noble Eightfold Path by Bhikkhu Bodhi Chapter VI RIGHT MINDFULNESS (Samma Sati) "By itself mindfulness of breathing can lead to all the stages of the path culminating in full awakening. In fact it was this meditation subject that the Buddha used on the night of his own enlightenment. He also reverted to it throughout the years during his solitary retreats, and constantly recommended it to the monks, praising it as "peaceful and sublime, an unadulterated blissful abiding, which banishes at once and stills evil unwholesome thoughts as soon as they arise" (MN 118). "Mindfulness of breathing can function so effectively as a subject of meditation because it works with a process that is always available to us, the process of respiration. What it does to turn this process into a basis for meditation is simply to bring it into the range of awareness by making the breath an object of observation. The meditation requires no special intellectual sophistication, only awareness of the breath. "One merely breathes naturally through the nostrils keeping the breath in mind at the contact point around the nostrils or upper lip, where the sensation of breath can be felt as the air moves in and out. There should be no attempt to control the breath or to force it into predetermined rhythms, only a mindful contemplation of the natural process of breathing in and out. The awareness of breath cuts through the complexities of discursive thinking, rescues us from pointless wandering in the labyrinth of vain imaginings, and grounds us solidly in the present. For whenever we become aware of breathing, really aware of it, we can be aware of it only in the present, never in the past or the future. [endquote] (4) More considerations on breath meditation. How does it develop awareness and concentration? A famous meditation monk, Ajahn Chah, talked about the jhana factors that resulted from the breath meditation as follows: "Normally the mind isn't still, it's moving all the time, it lacks strength. Making the mind strong and making the body strong are not the same. To make the body strong we have to exercise it, to push it, in order to make it strong, but to make the mind strong means to make it peaceful, not to go thinking of this and that. For most of us the mind has never been peaceful, it has never had the energy of samadhi, so we establish it within a boundary. We sit in meditation, staying with the One who knows. "If we force our breath to be too long or too short we're not balanced, the mind won't become peaceful. It's like when we first start to use a pedal sewing machine. At first we just practice pedaling the machine to get our co-ordination right, before we actually sew anything. Following the breath is similar. We don't get concerned over how long or short, weak or strong it is, we just note it. We simply let it be, following the natural breathing. "When it's balanced, we take the breathing as our meditation object. When we breathe in, the beginning of the breath is at the nose tip, the middle of the breath at the chest and the end of the breath at the abdomen. This is the path of the breath. When we breathe out, the beginning of the breath is at the abdomen, the middle at the chest and the end at the nose tip. We simply take note of this path of the breath at the nose tip, the chest and the abdomen, then at the abdomen, the chest and the tip of the nose. We take note of these three points in order to make the mind firm, to limit mental activity so that mindfulness and self-awareness can easily arise. "When we are adept at noting these three points we can let them go and note the in and out breathing, concentrating solely at the nose-tip or the upper lip where the air passes on its in and out passage. We don't have to follow the breath, just establish mindfulness in front of us at the nose-tip, and note the breath at this one point -- entering, leaving, entering, leaving. There's no need to think of anything special, just concentrate on this simple task for now, having continuous presence of mind. There's nothing more to do, just breathing in and out. Soon the mind becomes peaceful, the breath refined. The mind and body become light. This is the right state for the work of meditation. "When sitting in meditation the mind becomes refined, but whatever state it's in we should try to be aware of it, to know it. Mental activity is there together with tranquillity. There is vitakka. Vitakka is the action of bringing the mind to the theme of contemplation. If there is not much mindfulness, there will be not much vitakka. Then vicara, the contemplation around that theme, follows. Various "weak " mental impressions may arise from time to time but our self-awareness is the important thing -- whatever may be happening we know it continuously. As we go deeper we are constantly aware of the state of our meditation, knowing whether or not the mind is firmly established. Thus, both concentration and awareness are present. "To have a peaceful mind does not mean that there's nothing happening, mental impressions do arise. For instance, when we talk about the first level of absorption, we say it has five factors. Along with vitakka and vicara, piti (rapture) arises with the theme of contemplation and then sukha (happiness). These four things all lie together in the mind established in tranquillity. They are as one state". [endquote] A Talk by Ajahn Chah http://www.dhamma.com/eng/lpch/taste2.html Sincerely, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > The comparison you make to kasina and dead body shows that you are > thinking in terms of samatha and jhana development. But even here, > isn't the whole idea that these become the object of only `developed > panna' and not mere conceptual object for any and every body? Besides the choice of object even for developed panna depends I think on temperament and past accumulations. So choosing breath for the above reason, would it be any good? > > Any observation of rise and fall of this would be only conceptual. This is not the same as the rise and fall of paramattha dhammas. But we do > like to think that we are having some understanding of the Tilakkhana, and this I think is dangerous. What you consider to be `clear beginning and ending points' have in fact involved billions of unobserved rise and fall, many of which are cittas rooted in moha. And often this precipitates in wrong view and further attachment to the practice. > > Above you talked about the difficulty of knowing vedana, sanna, > sankhara and so on, how can you then be sure of this, that any level of jhana has been achieved? > > Jhana is good and I congratulate and would anumodana anyone who achieves it. However isn't it more important to understand reality as it is? And if we do not know the realities in daily life, don't you think we should pause before thinking that we are close to achieving jhana? > > Metta, > Sukinder 44866 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter kenhowardau Dear Robert K, Thanks for not giving up on me. I'm sorry, but there is more exasperating stubbornness to follow: ------------------- RK: > I see. Ok let me try this one. Take a pest exterminator who sprays insects to (speculatively) kill them. Could a sotapanna do that job. Or could a sotapanna be the man who kills the cattle at a abatoir? ------------------- By definition, a sotapanna cannot kill. That is, the five khandhas conventionally known as 'a sotapanna' cannot include akusala cetana at the level of kamma-patha. The conditions for that kind of cetana have been permanently destroyed. But is there a definition by which a sotapanna cannot be the man whose job it is to exterminate insects or slaughter cattle? No, or at least, not that I know of. So, off the top of my head, I would say a sotapanna could turn up for work (at any job) and go through all the motions, but there will be no intention to kill, or there will be no being to be killed, or there would be no resultant death (or any combination of those three). That sounds far-fetched, but I don't see any paramattha reasons why it shouldn't be the case. Ken H 44867 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sati and no sati, Intellectual Understanding, no 2 buddhistmedi... Dear Nina and Sukinder - Intellectual understanding is necessary at the beginning when we study the Dhamma (pariyatti). However, it is a mistake to believe that intellectual understanding alone is strong enough as the supporting condition for knowledge and vision of realities: it is concentration (samadhi) that is the supporting condition for knowledge and vision of realities. I have at least three evidences from the suttas plus some advice from Bhikkhu Bodhi's book to prove my point. Please read the following excerpts with an open mind. (I) Concentration supports discernment (panna). "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present." SN XXXV.99, Samadhi Sutta. (II) A samatha-vipassana meditation: here is how meditation on the foulness of the body and breathing meditation- the 1st tetrad - with aniccanupassana lead to clear knowing. "This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Remain focused, monks, on the foulness of the body. Have mindfulness of in-&-out breathing well established to the fore within you. Remain focused on the inconstancy of all fabrications. For one who remains focused on the foulness of the body, the obsession with passion for the property of beauty is abandoned. For one who has mindfulness of in-&-out breathing well established to the fore within oneself, annoying external thoughts & inclinations don't exist. For one who remains focused on the inconstancy of all fabrications, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises." {Iti III.36; Iti 80} ------------- (III) A concentration of the 1st jhana level is powerful enough as the supporting condition for knowledge and visions of realities. Two suttas: Jhana Sutta: Mental Absorption, AN IX.36 and MN 64, Mahamalunkhyaputta Sutta. (1) Jhana Sutta: Mental Absorption, AN IX.36 "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non- perception. "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, a void, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' "Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then -- through this very dhamma-passion, this very dhamma- delight, and from the total wasting away of the five lower fetters [self- identity views, grasping at precepts & practices, uncertainty, sensual passion, and irritation] -- he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. (2) MN 64, Mahamalunkhyaputta Sutta "Ananda, what is the path and method, to dispel the lower bonds of the sensual world? Ananda, the bhikkhu secluding the mind thoroughly, by dispelling things of demerit, removes all bodily transgressions that bring remorse. Then secluding the mind, from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. Established in it he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self. "Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: "This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations( sankhara khandha), the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment(viraga), cessation and extinction (nibbana). "With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things. He arises spontaneously, with the destruction of the five lower bonds, of the sensual world, not to proceed. Ananda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds of the sensual world.. " ------------------------------- (IV) Bhikkhu Bodhi believes that "deep concentration" is the supporting condition for knowledge and vision of things. "In order to develop the knowledge and vision of things as they really are with respect to the aggregates, the yogin must first emerge from his state of deep concentration, for the analytical faculty -- silenced in the folds of serenity -- has to be brought into play to effect the required dissection. With his mind made clear and pliant as a result of concentration, the yogin attends to the diverse phenomena coming into range of his awareness. The phenomena are attended to as they become manifest to determine their salient characteristics; then, on this basis, they are assigned to their appropriate place among the aggregates. Whatever is physical belongs to the aggregate of material form; whatever registers affective tone is feeling; whatever notices the object's marks is perception; whatever wills is a mental formation; and whatever cognizes is consciousness". From "Transcendental Dependent Arising" A Translation and Exposition of the Upanisa Sutta" by Bhikkhu Bodhi The Wheel Publication No. 277/278 SL ISSN 0049-7541 --------------------------------- (V) In the Upanisa Sutta SNXII.23 it is clearly stated that concentration is the supporting for "knowledge and vision of things". One kind of concentration that is suitable as the supporting condition for knowledge and vision of things is conditioned by joy, rapture, tranquillity and happiness: i.e. the 1st jhana factors. Hopefully this post may not cause acute eye-strain to Nina. If it did then please accept my apology. Respectfully yours, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > op 27-04-2005 01:30 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: (snipped) > > T: To explain why I have been stubborn, let me quote from the > > Visuddhimagga as follows: Concentration is for the purpose of correct > > knowledge and vision, correct knowledge and vision is for the purpose > > of dispassion, dispassion is for the purpose of fading away [of greed], > > fading away is for the purpose of deliverance, deliverance is for the > > purpose of knowledge and vision of deliverance, knowledge and > > vision of deliverance is for the purpose of complete extinction [of > > craving, etc.] through not clinging. [Vism. I, 32]. The intellectual > > understanding can't even give us the kind of concentration that leads > > to dispassion. > N: Only paññaa leads to dispassion. By understanding realities as they are > you will see that they are *only* nama, *only* rupa, only elements. > As to this text, this is more complicated. Samadhi is not developed for its > own sake, but it can support pañña to know realities as they are. It can > serve as a minister. Concentration to what degree depends on the individual. > Not everybody has to cultivate jhana. Besides, when insight grows, also > right concentration grows, it is a factor of the eightfold Path. But this is > a topic apart. > Nina. 44868 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:19pm Subject: Vism.XIV,156 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 156. So these are the thirty-six formations that should be understood to come into association with the first profitable consciousness of the sense sphere (1). And as with the first, so with the second (2), the only difference here being promptedness. (3)-(4) Those associated with the third (3) should be understood as all the foregoing except non-delusion (xv). Likewise with the fourth (4), the only difference here being promptedness. (5)-(6) All those stated in the first instance, except happiness (v), come into association with the fifth (5). Likewise with the sixth (6), the only difference here being promptedness. (7)-(8) [Those associated] with the seventh (7) should be understood as [the last] except non-delusion (xv). Likewise with the eighth (8), the only difference here being promptedness. 44869 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > > By definition, a sotapanna cannot kill. That is, the five khandhas > conventionally known as 'a sotapanna' cannot include akusala cetana > at the level of kamma-patha. The conditions for that kind of cetana > have been permanently destroyed. But is there a definition by which > a sotapanna cannot be the man whose job it is to exterminate insects > or slaughter cattle? No, or at least, not that I know of. > > So, off the top of my head, I would say a sotapanna could turn up > for work (at any job) and go through all the motions, but there will > be no intention to kill, or there will be no being to be killed, or > there would be no resultant death (or any combination of those > three). That sounds far-fetched, but I don't see any paramattha > reasons why it shouldn't be the case. Dear Ken, Thanks for taking the time to answer my little questions. I think it was important to ask them so that we can be sure of where our difference of opinion lies. Sarah, if you are reading this thread could you say whether you agree with Ken's statement.. as we also difffer on this matter. Robertk 44870 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:50pm Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter sarahprocter... Hi Rob K (& Ken H), Thanks for asking for my further comment here. --- rjkjp1 wrote: > > Dear Ken, > Thanks for taking the time to answer my little questions. I think it > was important to ask them so that we can be sure of where our > difference of opinion lies. Sarah, if you are reading this thread > could you say whether you agree with Ken's statement.. as we also > difffer on this matter. .... S: As I've been indicating all along, it's the intention to kill that counts. If there is no intention, there is no killing. Let me make this reply a little more personal to avoid any confusion. I haven't intentionally killed even an insect, as I recall, since I was a child. At school I had to drop biology because I wouldn't follow some of the experiments which involved live dissecting of worms etc,(even though I had wanted to be a doctor til then). So to clarify, I personally would not (even if I were trained/employed to do so) perform an abortion because I would expect to either have to be intentionally killing the foetus or deliberately failing the operation which would bring up other ethical concerns such as deceit. In the same way I would not spray insecticide, bomb, slaughter animals or anything else with the intention of killing or encourage anyone else with such intentions in anyway. As Howard and Nina have indicated, sometimes we have to go to quite some trouble and expense to find solutions to simple everyday problems. One reason we live in a small, clean high-rise flat here and hardly eat anything at home these days is because of the cockroaches and other insects which just love this hot, humid climate and soon find the tiniest crumbs. We all agree that a sotapanna would not intend to kill under any circumstances -- even those circumstances which may be quite unimaginable to us, such as when family members are at risk. So in brief, no, I can't see a sotapanna agreeing to perform an abortion, slaughtering in an abattoir and defininitely not intentionally using the pesticide to kill insects. As for Ken's comments about Buddhist doctors and so on, I'm sure in Buddhist countries like Sri Lanka, there would never be any requirement to perform such operations (and far less demand too). And yes, with more confidence in the teachings, there would be less killing and so on. And if we were all arahants, none of us could be living the worldly lay life at all, but there has always been greed, hatred and delusion and there always will be. However, in general, I think KenH has been making some very good points which I agree with -- especially about how we tend to judge the situation or the conventional story about various acts when we have no idea about the intentions involved. We think of long, long stories about good and bad and forget entirely about the momentary cittas we've studied so much. This was the point of the original thread with the account of the hunter's wife and other examples. I might clear up the mess or comfort the lady in the operating theatre or clean up the abattoir or use the spray without any intention to harm. Who knows about other grey areas? I couldn't say whether I'd pass the instruments at the time, pilot the plane or even press the bomb switch, but I'm confident that I wouldn't be intending to kill or wishing someone else to do so in anyway. The same with the alcohol examples. I haven't intentionally taken any intoxicants for 30 years (after seeing the effect on my father who became alcoholic) and would never encourage anyone to drink even a little. So, I'm confident that if I purchased or sold or poured any alcohol, it would not be for this purpose. And I'm mostly certainly not a sotapanna. I have no idea about what pickles I may be in or come across in lives to come!! The point is, I think, that appearances often aren't what they seem and we can only know our own intentions at any given time when they arise. With more and more growth in wisdom and confidence, I think there are fewer and fewer dilemmas in life, fewer and fewer 'hypothetical situations' and we are less concerned about what others may think about our actions as they see them. I hope this helps and appreciate both your comments on this thread. Please let me know if there's anything further. Metta, Sarah ======= 44871 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati and no sati, Sukin # 27400, Intellectual Understanding sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: I agree so much with this, especially about the equanimity and > kamma. <...> > Then it hits me: > He would look at the situation with equanimity! He would know that it > was that kitten's kamma to be where it is, and those camels's kamma to > be where they are, and that he would see the situation with > equanimity. That realization helped me a lot! ... S: A beautiful story well told. Thank you. And, yes, we forget about kamma so easily. When we were walking amongst the beggars in India, I also found it helped a lot to reflect on kamma and to develop a little metta, compassion and especially equanimity right then and there. Your actions when you walked away from the kitten or ours as we walked away from the beggars might seem heartless or even cruel, but if there is just a little understanding or equanimity just then and there as you described and reminded us so well, then there is nothing cold or heartless about it. Again, we can't judge from the appearance of such acts. Metta and thanks, Sarah ======= 44872 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:01pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 179- Right Effort of the eightfold Path (j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== The Buddha knew the accumulations of beings and thus whenever he preached to someone he could remind him in the way which was most suitable for him. He often reminded people of the foulness of “this short-lived body”, in order to stir them to develop satipaììhåna. The Thera Kimbila (Thera-gåthå 118) was stirred when the Buddha, by his supernatural power, conjured up the image of a beautiful woman and showed her passing to old age. The Commentary relates that he was greatly shaken by this image. He spoke this verse: * As bidden by some power age over her falls. Her shape is as another, yet the same. Now this myself, who never has left myself, Seems other than the self I recollect. * Kimbila realized that what he took for self are ever-changing phenomena. Although what we call in conventional terms the “present personality” has developed from the “past personality”, there isn’t any reality which is self. The phenomena of the present moment fall away immediately as soon as they have arisen and are completely gone. The commentary relates that Kimbila, while he considered the truth of impermanence, was yet more strongly agitated. He listened to the Buddha, became a monk and attained arahatship. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44873 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:54pm Subject: Re: Musings11 - Samaadaana Siila (Resolution or Undertaking of Sila) kenhowardau Hi Sarah, This is a very nice post, thank you. I will read it out at the next Cooran meeting on Vesak Day. ------------------- S: > Sila is an aspect or foundation of all kinds of kusala (wholesomeconsciousness) – whether it be sila, dana or bhavana. ------------------- I have sometimes been confused by the two usages of the word: it's good to see it set down in black and white. -------------------------------------------------- S: > Usually there's no act of dana or bhavana, so the kusala is simply referred to as `siila', --------------------------------------------------- Maybe I haven't understood that properly. I would have thought dana was the most active of the three - e.g., when gifts physically change hands. ------------------- S: > for example when there's kindness or helpful speech now. ------------------- I'll have to think about it. ---------------------- S: > As Chris mentioned, we discussed "the difference between "Undertaking" and"Observing" the Precepts. There were also many references to `samaadaana siila', the undertaking or resolution to follow sila, including the precepts. ---------------------- This is pertinent to the questions I've been asking lately, and it does help, thanks. I have to say, however, that 'an undertaking or resolution' sounds a bit like making promises we can't keep. But, of course, it doesn't have to mean that. ---------------------------- S: > There were questions about following the 8 silas or precepts (abstaining from eating after midday, from wearing ornamentation and sleeping in a high bed in addition to the usual five). It was pointed out that these are not usually household precepts and once more it depends on our intentions for such undertakings, because we are not yet sotapannas. ---------------------------- Yes, I'm a bit apprehensive about Cooran's first 8-precept day. You will have had experiences with Uposatha in Asia: do people resist laughing, focus one plough-length ahead and that sort of thing? --------------------------------- --------------------------------- As I said, this is a very helpful post, and I will read it out on our 8-precept day. Warnings need to be given against ritualistic attempts at 'control' but, at the same time, no one wants me harping on and on spoiling everything. :-) ---------------------- S: > In MN 46, the the Mahaadhammasamaadaana Sutta (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl), we read about right and wrong undertaking (samaadaana), rooted in right and wrong view: The third way is the abstaining from misconduct but experiencing grief and pain as a result!! --------------------- Physical pain is vipaka, but grief comes with akusala citta: how is grief connected with virati? Thanks again for the post. Ken H 44874 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi Sarah, all sarahprocter... Hi AndrewL, Whenever I start wondering how you're doing, you appear:-) --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > I am writing this message to inform you all that I don't think this > being a regular member of this discussion group is 'me.' At least for > the present, I will not be checking here as the threads I start do not > yield the good results I was expecting when I began them. .... S: Could you elaborate just a little on what 'the good results' you were expecting were? What kind of results have resulted? Sometimes, as Nina and I discuss, when we hear the Dhamma, it's not pleasant or easy and may seem more like bitter medicine. I gave an example yesterday from a sutta of how even undertaking good acts may seem like bitter medicine for some of us, but the result is always good, if the intentions are good. .... >Certainly > it is due to some differences of view between myself and members on > the list, some to my unfamiliarity with and lack of proficiency in the > texts, and to some extent my inclination to be more of a dry poster > than to have my questions and responses based on or affected by things > I see or encounter in day to day reality. ... S: I think we all have differences of view here and none of us are really familiar or have real 'proficiency in the texts' as you put it. If we did, we'd all be ariyans for sure, because any proficiency has less to do with familiarity with the word and a lot more to do with understanding what is meant. I wrote a post about making mistakes as we all do. I had recently discussed with friends how no matter how much or little we understand of the teachings, we have to go on researching and checking and asking for help from anyone who knows better. We have to question, check the reasons and causes for what they say, so that we can consider more until what we hear is our own understanding. This is because we're just studying what is relevant to our understanding in order to have less attachment, aversion and ignorance. Definitely we'll be students of the Dhamma for our whole lives and we can never know everything, but we jsut try to understand what we can for now and when we know more, we can say more. The main thing, I think, is to learn to see all dhammas as anatta, otherwise we just have headaches and problems all the time, trying to select and control dhammas or trying to know a lot of detail but without any real understanding. Would you please elaborate on the second half of your paragraph ('dry poster' etc). It sounds interesting, but I don't quite follow your meaning. .... > > I will attempt to finish up some old threads, especially the ones with > Sarah, and see how it goes from there. I don't think I'll be > abandoning this group completely, but I don't think it will be my home > away from home either. ... S: If you'd rather start new threads or abandon them all together, it's fine. Whatever you feel is most useful, Al. No, please don't abandon us!! Your last set of posts contained excellent questions and astute observations -- we can all benefit from them. At least I can. No need to think too much about whether DSG is your 'home away from home' or whether the list is 'you'! Just take one day at a time and if you feel like responding to any posts or threads or feel like initiating any, as you've done here, just know we'll be glad to hear from you. I believe that you really reflect very deeply on the Teachings in a way that is most unusual, especially for someone young. Your faith and understanding of the dhammas as dhammas is very precious. So please chip in from time to time when you can. It's most inspiring. Metta, Sarah ===== 44875 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 0:26am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too sukinderpal Dear Htoo, > Mahasatipatthana sutta which is described in Mahavagga of Digha > Nikaaya of Tipitaka definitely say about 'breathing'. > > Regarding teachers, they instruct how to follow the laid out path. > There may be many traditions. I value all and I do not accuse of > anyone's method not genuine. > > Example is Mahasi Sayadaw's method. > > When I studied what Mahasi Sayadaw taught, I did not find any flaws. I started my path along the Theravada tradition with Goenka, this was five years ago. I chose his method because a retreat was accessible. But soon after my first retreat, I came upon and read a book by Mahasi Sayadaw. This impressed me greatly and was even decisive in turning me away from Mahayana to Theravada and I remember regretting that I had not discovered Mahasi's method before the Goenka, because I would surely have ended up taking a 20 day retreat. But the methods being different and I was unwilling to change, I went for my second Goenka retreat a couple of months later. But all that changed after I came upon DSG and Abhidhamma. Now, I don't think I will ever be interested in formal practice in this lifetime. The fact that `breath' is mentioned in the Mahasatipatthana sutta, I think interpreting the significance of this is what we need to go into, and this must be in light of the whole Tipitaka and what is really the "Dhamma" taught by the Buddha. Jon and Nina have discussed quite a bit on this topic and I depend on their greater understanding, familiarity with the Texts and analytical power to do the job ;-). Metta, Sukinder 44876 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings11 - Samaadaana Siila (Resolution or Undertaking of Sila) sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > This is a very nice post, thank you. I will read it out at the next > Cooran meeting on Vesak Day. ... S: thank you. To be honest, I wasn’t familiar with the phrase ‘samaadaana siila’, didn’t know how it was spelt and so it took some tracking down in big dictionaries:-). If you read it out with the previous one(the Hunter’s wife Musing), between them you’d be guaranteed a lively, controversy-filled weekend:-). ..... > ------------------- > S: > Sila is an aspect or foundation of all kinds of kusala > (wholesomeconsciousness) – whether it be sila, dana or bhavana. > ------------------- > > I have sometimes been confused by the two usages of the word: it's > good to see it set down in black and white. > > -------------------------------------------------- > S: > Usually there's no act of dana or bhavana, so the kusala is > simply referred to as `siila', > --------------------------------------------------- > > Maybe I haven't understood that properly. I would have thought dana > was the most active of the three - e.g., when gifts physically > change hands. ... S: Perhaps I didn’t express it well. Yes, dana is when there is some active giving. Bhavana refers to moments of samatha or vipassana development. Usually, when the citta is kusala, it’s none of these, so it’s just sila, even though there is also sila with dana and bhavana. .... > > ------------------- > S: > for example when there's kindness or helpful speech now. > ------------------- > > I'll have to think about it. .... S: I mean that these are common kinds of kusala which are not dana or bhavana. So they are referred to as sila when we say/read that all kinds of kusala are sila, dana or bhavana. .... > > ---------------------- > S: > As Chris mentioned, we discussed "the difference > between "Undertaking" and"Observing" the Precepts. > > There were also many references to `samaadaana siila', the > undertaking or resolution to follow sila, including the precepts. > ---------------------- > > This is pertinent to the questions I've been asking lately, and it > does help, thanks. I have to say, however, that 'an undertaking or > resolution' sounds a bit like making promises we can't keep. But, of > course, it doesn't have to mean that. .... S: No, id doesn’t mean that. That’s the point. Samadana sila doesn’t refer to mere undertakings or promises when we’re with a group or at the temple but which are forgotten or not acted on when we leave. .... > > ---------------------------- > S: > There were questions about following the 8 silas or precepts > (abstaining from eating after midday, from wearing ornamentation and > sleeping in a high bed in addition to the usual five). It was > pointed out that these are not usually household precepts and once > more it depends on our intentions for such undertakings, because we > are not yet sotapannas. > ---------------------------- > > Yes, I'm a bit apprehensive about Cooran's first 8-precept day. You > will have had experiences with Uposatha in Asia: do people resist > laughing, focus one plough-length ahead and that sort of thing? .... S: :-) People do what there are conditions to do and if that is to laugh, well, even those cittas can be known for what they are. Just let anyone follow what they like with metta! .... > As I said, this is a very helpful post, and I will read it out on > our 8-precept day. Warnings need to be given against ritualistic > attempts at 'control' but, at the same time, no one wants me harping > on and on spoiling everything. :-) .... S: I doubt they’d be able to stop you :-). Isn’t that what they ‘pay’ for? .... > > ---------------------- > S: > In MN 46, the the Mahaadhammasamaadaana Sutta > (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl), we read about right and wrong undertaking > (samaadaana), rooted in right and wrong view: > > The third way is the abstaining from misconduct but experiencing > grief and pain as a result!! > --------------------- > > Physical pain is vipaka, but grief comes with akusala citta: how is > grief connected with virati? .... S: This is a harder question and my paraphrase may have been a touch inaccurate. The text says. P. 410: “Now, bhikkhus, one who is wise, knowing this way of undertaking things that is painful now and ripens in the future as pleasure, understands it as it actually is thus: ‘This way of undertaking things is painful now and ripens in the future as pleasure.’ Ah, I see where I got the grief from now...it comes in later, p.412 “What, bhikkhus, is the way of undertaking things that is painful now and ripens in the future as pleasure? Here, bhikkhus, someone in pain and grief abstains from killing living beings, and he experiences *pain and grief that have abstention from killing living beings as condition. In pain and grief he abstains from taking what is not given...from misconduct in sensual pleasures.....from speaking falsehood.....from speaking maliciously...from speaking harshly.....from gossiping...he is not covetous...he does not have a mind of ill will...he holds right view, and he experiences pain and grief that have right view as condition.* On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination, even in the heavenly world. This is called the way of undertaking things that is painful now and ripens in the future as pleasure.” As you say, no grief or even akusala vipaka with kusala cittas (virati), but conditioned by them. As Htoo mentioned recently, akusala can condition kusala and vice versa by natural decisive support condition. For example, by not harming some insects, one may have a lot of dosa to them when they over-run the place or our hypthetical doctor may lose his income and suffer as a result of turning down the abortions. Anathapindika was very generous but lost all his wealth and suffered a lot. Or we take the bitter medicine when we hear reminders about our wrong views, often conditioning some dosa (Nina will be laughing:-)), but we need to hear the reminders and take the medicine. She and I both feel the more the better. There’s another sutta in MN I like about explaining dhamma at the right time and this includes even those times we know it will cause some unhappiness, but have confidence the ‘medicine’ is necessary. Hence, your good intentions to question the undertaking of the 8 precepts etc. Of course your comments won’t be liked by all -- I’m sure they never are!!-- and there will be some temporary grief, but you know friends may benefit in the longer run from further reflection and open discussion of these topics. Metta, Sarah ======= 44877 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Intellectual Understanding, no 2, jhana. nilovg Dear Tep and Matheesha, Thank you Tep for all the sutta texts, a lot to consider. I do not really know the answer to all those sutta texts on jhana. Besides, Larry put me to work today! Yes, Matheesha, I read in the suttas that also householders could attain jhana. If someone has the inclination to cultivate it and can be sure that he attains what is really jhana let him do it. No problem. Jhana is a high degree of kusala. In the course of years we had countless discussions about jhana and dry insight. It would be monotonous to repeat them all. They can be found under search: jhana. We discussed many suttas. As I understand, paññaa is essential for jhana, and also to know what calm is: being removed from lobha, dosa, moha. In Jhana one suppresses defilements, but in the end they have to be known by insight when they appear. As is explained under the Application of Mindfulness of citta. All realities have to be known as they are, as non-self. Meditation teachers give their comments, and advice, but in the last instance everyone has to find out for himself what the way is he should follow. Nina. op 28-04-2005 04:18 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > > Intellectual understanding is necessary at the beginning when we > study the Dhamma (pariyatti). However, it is a mistake to believe that > intellectual understanding alone is strong enough as the supporting > condition for knowledge and vision of realities: it is concentration > (samadhi) that is the supporting condition for knowledge and vision of > realities. 44878 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati and no sati, equanimity. nilovg Hi James, thank you for sharing your moving story about the kitten. I know you love animals, like we do. Yes, such a good example of equanimity. It does help us in life. Nina. op 28-04-2005 00:00 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > James: I agree so much with this, especially about the equanimity and > kamma. Let me tell you a story: tonight I was walking home from the > grocery store and I found a little kitten crying and mewing from the > hood of a car. 44879 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > As for Ken's comments about Buddhist doctors and so on, I'm sure in > Buddhist countries like Sri Lanka, there would never be any requirement to > perform such operations (and far less demand too). Hello Sarah, (KenH, RobK,) all, It seems a mistake to generalise using idealised views of the power of religious teachings. When people are fearful or desperate, they will take whatever action seems to offer a 'solution'. In the year 2000, there were 750 to 1000 induced abortion *each day* in Sri Lanka, today's figures will be higher. http://w3.whosea.org/LinkFiles/Family_Planning_Fact_Sheets_srilanka.p df metta, Chris 44880 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:09am Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter sarahprocter... Hi Chris, Thanks for this. My comment was meant to suggest that in country like Sri Lanka or Thailand or Burma, it would generally be accepted and understood if a doctor preferred not to perform such operations or it certainly would have been until recently, I believe. I may be out of date. metta, Sarah ===== --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > As for Ken's comments about Buddhist doctors and so on, I'm sure in > > Buddhist countries like Sri Lanka, there would never be any > requirement to > > perform such operations (and far less demand too). > > Hello Sarah, (KenH, RobK,) all, > > It seems a mistake to generalise using idealised views of the power > of religious teachings. When people are fearful or desperate, they > will take whatever action seems to offer a 'solution'. In the year > 2000, there were 750 to 1000 induced abortion *each day* in Sri > Lanka, today's figures will be higher. <...> 44881 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:44am Subject: Dhamma Thread (361) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Threads start with explanation on realities. Dhamma Thread discuss on citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana, pannatta. Dhamma Thread relate citta with different sets of combination of cetasikas. Dhamma Thread classify cittas in different ways. Cetasikas or mental factors or mental accompaniments are explained in detail with examples and evidences. Cetasikas are grouped into different sets and they assigned as people performing their different functions. Dhamma Thread explain what is rupa and what are each rupa and their implications in loka or worlds of kaama or sensuous sphere, rupa or fine material world or sphere. Rupa are investigated as they are. Rupa are there as rupa kalaapa or aggregates of materials. Different aggregates of materials have been explained in detail. Causes of rupa dhamma are also discussed in Dhamma Threads. How rupa arises, how it falls away and how long they exist when they are living as dhamma are also explained in Dhamma Thread posts. Rupa dhamma are thoroughly discussed in the previous posts. Nibbana is discussed sensitively and explained with examples. After explanation on nibbana, pannatti dhamma is also discussed. Apart from citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana there is no other ultimate realities. Other dhamma is pannatti and panatti is not an ultimate reality. After discussions on these matters, cittas are re-classified. Then cittas in procession or vithi cittas are explained in some detail. There are 14 different functions of citta and these functions are explained along with vithi vara. After processions of cittas, vithi-mutta or procession-free cittas and their implications are explained as bhuumi or realms or as 31 planes of existence. These 31 planes of existence have to exist because of kamma or actions and kamma are then explained in different ways. Currently Dhamma Thread explain kusala kamma and punna-kiriya-vatthu. There are 31 bhuumis or 31 realms because of kamma. There are 4 kamma depending on where beings are born due to their kamma. These 4 kamma are 1. akusala kamma 2. kaama kusala kamma 3. ruupa kusala kamma 4. aruupa kusala kamma Akusala and kaama kusala kamma have been explained in the previous posts. In the coming posts rupa-kusala kamma will be explained. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44882 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:55am Subject: Re: sati and no sati, Sukin # 27400, Intellectual Understanding christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Even before this I was telling my friend how > Australia is going to be culling the wild camel population by > shooting them from helicopters. It is supposed to be a real blood bath and it just really bothers me to consider it (my friend told > me they should just ship them to Egypt ;-). Hello James, There are 700,000 feral camels in Australia - increasing at 11% per annum .. doing huge damage to the fragile environment and limited water supplies .. If any country can transport, accommodate and feed 700,000 camels + the 77,000 extra births each year, then please get them to contact mine, poste haste. No country has previously put a hand up to make any offer at all to help. The cull is not to be a sporting event open to any weekend shooter - the Government will employ professional snipers to ensure the deaths are as quick and clean as possible. metta, Chris 44883 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter rjkjp1 --- > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > wrote: > > ---------------------------------- > > RK: > What if the doctor who is scheduled to perform the abortion > > refuses because he believes it is bad kamma, is he also misguided? > > ---------------------------------- > > > > I think he is misguided in thinking of kamma as a medical > procedure > > rather than as a paramattha dhamma. In fact, he doesn't know which > > kamma is present at any one moment, and there is no efficacy in > > favouring one conventional story over another. > > > > The doctor's livelihood is to perform operations as [legally] > > directed by the hospital. He should carry on that way, confident > in > > his understanding of kamma and vipaka. > > > ============================================ Dear KenH, I give my understanding on this. I do not believe that someone can perform an abortion, or spray pesticide on insects, without having akusala citta. I think the more insight there is into paramattha dhammas the more that akusala citta should become clear. So for a sotapanna even to swat an mosquito is an impossibility. In fact the commentaries say that a king's soldier could be standing over a sotapanna with a drawn sword about to cut his head off unless he kills an ant; and at the same time the royal treasurer could be offering a fortune if he do so, but the sotapan would always choose death. Why?: Because they see clearly the nature of akusala. Now even one who is begining to see paramttha dhammas will be that much less likely to kill, or approach a situation where he might kill, than someone who has no understanding. The complication in this- and I think where your protests come from- is that someone with wrong view and acting out of silabataparamasa can also be adverse to killing. However while the outward actions are the same - the lack of killing- the cittas of the two are of different qualities. So wrong view is not revealed by action alone, it needs discussion to see why someone values sila. Neither, of course, is right view shown by distaining abstinence from wrong livelihood. On your comments about the country eventually running out of doctors and other professions, I think we do not need to worry. there will always be enough people who willingly do such tasks. Robertk 44884 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:29am Subject: Mindfulness of breath in daily life? ( was Re: Asankhata philofillet Hi Lisa > [Lisa]Sensation of breath comes up before mind can hook anything onto > it for me it is my way of knowing without thought or concept. Oh by > the way in the beginning I did have to control certain things on a > surface level...lol and I still do, I like to talk and eat to much, > until I could let them go, like my anger and fear or I would not be > here talking to you, I would of ran away long ago. Ph: I can relate to letting go of anger etc through mindfulness of the breath. I have done it in the past, and who know, may again in the future. And I can see that for your mindfulnes of breath goes beyond the surface. You've thought about it, worked with it a lot, clearly. >On the most subtle > levels where things come and go quicker than a blink of an eye I do > not control but I can control my fist from connecting with someones > face. Ph: Hopefully! I have had an explosive temper and am feeling confident that it's been weakened thanks to Dhamma but should the right amount of anger well up just as the right face arises in front of me POW!!! Conditions are so powerful.... > [Lisa]Phil I truly enjoy our exchange you make me reach out and try to > explain what I thought I know and really I know nothing, but this is a > blast, I really like working with you. Thank you so much! Ph: My pleasure! This was just a quick dip into this topic, though - since I don't meditate (formally - in daily life there is also bhavana/meditation) I won't have much to share with you. I look forward to reading more of your posts, though. You have a really healthy vibe. (Not that everyone else is morbid or anything...) Metta, Phil 44885 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too sukinderpal Hi Larry, -------------------------------------- > S: "The idea of "mental discipline", how does this relate to the > development of satipatthana? > > L: Sila. Sukinder: So you are saying to turn the mind away from akusala thoughts on to the breath is sila? Could not the breath be the object of lobha in this case? Even leaving aside the definition of sila as `restraint' and taking instead the more broader meaning as in `all kusala is a kind of sila' re: Sarah's latest Musing, don't you think that it is sati and panna which will determine indeed that the moment is kusala and not being a matter of adverting to another object, in this case, breath? ----------------------------------- > S: "Also this seems to refer to the ability to remain on a single > `object´ instead of allowing the mind to drift to other objects. But > how do you determine that this is with panna or even kusala, or in fact > that it is not more akusala than when the mind jumps around?" > > L: By looking. Sukinder: This sounds very `deliberate' i.e. `self'. You "know" that this to be sati and panna at work? There is no problem in my opinion if the mind jumps around, satipatthana can arise in between and this is accompanied by detachment and not any idea of control or to keep the mind maintained on any object. In fact this would be a higher kind of sila. To think that the mind must be maintained one way or another and going about following a method, is I think placing oneself to be fooled by the illusion of result. But you have heard this before many times ;-). -------------------------------------------------- > S: "Also that which can be `attended to over and over´ can only be a > concept. One must make an assumption, how can this lead to knowing reality as it is?" > > L: The objects of satipatthana, e.g. breath, are not concepts. Attend to the breath over and over. Sukinder: I know you don't mean that everyone who approaches the breath will perceive the actual paramattha dhamma of breath. Nor do you say that the earth, wind and fire elements conditioned by this breath touching on the nostril would be perceived as it is. What I suspect you have in mind, is that with persistence, satipatthana will one day arise and be able to maintain during a meditation session. And that this goes hand in hand with knowing other dhammas arising through other doorways. I don't want to argue about subjective experiences. But I do want to point out to the fact that akusala conditions more akusala and kusala more of the same. Wrong view and wrong practice likewise accumulates and right view and practice too. Right view that is pariyatti is in my opinion of the same nature as the right view at a moment of satipatthana. Only that the former has concept as an object, while the later has a paramattha dhamma. And both condition and reinforce the other. ----------------------------------------------- > S: "You say that akusala conditioned by the latent tendencies can be > known, but don´t you think that these will only be in the form of > stories conditioned by the initial story of `using breath as a > reference´ and every other story centred on `self´?" > > L: I don't quite follow your question, but I would say desire can be > known and it is a reality. Sukinder: Any idea of "doing" must be based on a `situation', `story'. To keep coming back to a particular object, the breath, the story must be retold over and over. Paramattha dhammas arise and fall long before any decision is made to come back to the breath, but still we go along with the decision to continue the practice. This can only be done with a self who is happy to maintain any illusion of knowing. No doubt that depending on the accumulations, even here there can be satipatthana. However if this were so, it would be with detachment and so no reason to continue with any ritualized activity in the name of developing more understanding. In fact one way to determine if indeed our practice is `right' is to see if there is any detachment involved. ------------------------------------------ > S: "I doubt that this can lead to satipatthana but instead only > `thinking´ about kusala and akusala and this too, not necessarily with > any level of panna." > > L: If you really don't want to do this you could recognize and > experience that aversion as aversion. Sukinder: :-) I could, or it could be any other reality. And if it is not a matter of my wanting to or not, but only about understanding conditions, here too there can be some sati. Metta, Sukinder 44886 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding buddhistmedi... Hi Larry and Sukinder - In message # 44885 I can see that Sukinder kept repeating only one theme: Panna that is obtained from studying and considering the doctrine (pariyatti) with sati (if it arises) in the present moment is Sila, Samadhi and Panna -- all in one , and we don't have to train for anything else. We don't need Adhisila-sikkha. We don't need Adhicitta- sikkha. We don't need Adhipanna sikkha. They are the automatic consequences of the intellectual understanding. Nyanatiloka Dictionary explains the 3-fold training as follows : This 3-fold training refers to the 3-fold division of the the 8-fold Path (magga) in morality, concentration and wisdom (síla, samádhi, paññá). In D. 16 and A.IV,1 it is said: "It is through not understanding, not penetrating noble morality ... noble concentration ... noble wisdom ... noble deliverance that I, as well as you, have had for such a long time to pass through this round of rebirths.'' "This then is morality, this concentration, this wisdom, this deliverance. Being endowed with morality, concentration brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with concentration, wisdom brings high fruit and blessing. Being endowed with wisdom, the mind becomes freed from all cankers (asava) namely, from the sensuous canker (kamasava), from the canker of existence (bhavasava) from the canker of opinions (ditthisava) from the canker of ignorance (avijjasava). [end quote] Tep : So, Sukinder, the explanation above clearly shows that there are much more than the "panna" at your pariyatti level can accomplish. Some examples of Sukinder's one-track belief: S: Could not <1> the breath be the object of lobha in this case? ... don't you think that <2> it is sati and panna which will determine indeed that the moment is kusala and not being a matter of adverting to another object, in this case, breath? S: There is no problem in my opinion if the mind jumps around, <3>satipatthana can arise in between and this is accompanied by detachment and not any idea of control or to keep the mind maintained on any object. > L: The objects of satipatthana, e.g. breath, are not concepts. > Attend to the breath over and over. S: I don't want to argue about subjective experiences. ... Right view that is <4>pariyatti is in my opinion of the same nature as the right view at a moment of satipatthana. Only that the former has concept as an object, while the later has a paramattha dhamma. S: In fact one way to determine if indeed our practice is `right' is to see if there is any detachment involved. Tep : The only thing I agree with you, Sukinder, is your last remark above -- it is the same as saying "the proof in in the pudding". Have you proved that you are free from detachment? Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > Hi Larry, > > -------------------------------------- > > > S: "The idea of "mental discipline", how does this relate to the > > development of satipatthana? > > > > L: Sila. > > Sukinder: > So you are saying to turn the mind away from akusala thoughts on to > the breath is sila? Could not the breath be the object of lobha in this > case? Even leaving aside the definition of sila as `restraint' and taking > instead the more broader meaning as in `all kusala is a kind of sila' re: > Sarah's latest Musing, don't you think that it is sati and panna which will > determine indeed that the moment is kusala and not being a matter of > adverting to another object, in this case, breath? > ----------------------------------- > > > S: "Also this seems to refer to the ability to remain on a single > > `object´ instead of allowing the mind to drift to other objects. But > > how do you determine that this is with panna or even kusala, or in fact > > that it is not more akusala than when the mind jumps around?" > > > > L: By looking. > > Sukinder: > This sounds very `deliberate' i.e. `self'. You "know" that this to be sati > and panna at work? There is no problem in my opinion if the mind > jumps around, satipatthana can arise in between and this is > accompanied by detachment and not any idea of control or to keep the > mind maintained on any object. In fact this would be a higher kind of > sila. To think that the mind must be maintained one way or another and > going about following a method, is I think placing oneself to be fooled by > the illusion of result. But you have heard this before many times ;-). > -------------------------------------------------- > > > S: "Also that which can be `attended to over and over´ can only be a > > concept. One must make an assumption, how can this lead to > knowing reality as it is?" > > > > L: The objects of satipatthana, e.g. breath, are not concepts. Attend > to the breath over and over. > > Sukinder: > I know you don't mean that everyone who approaches the breath will > perceive the actual paramattha dhamma of breath. Nor do you say that > the earth, wind and fire elements conditioned by this breath touching on > the nostril would be perceived as it is. What I suspect you have in mind, > is that with persistence, satipatthana will one day arise and be able to > maintain during a meditation session. And that this goes hand in hand > with knowing other dhammas arising through other doorways. > > I don't want to argue about subjective experiences. But I do want to > point out to the fact that akusala conditions more akusala and kusala > more of the same. Wrong view and wrong practice likewise > accumulates and right view and practice too. Right view that is pariyatti > is in my opinion of the same nature as the right view at a moment of > satipatthana. Only that the former has concept as an object, while the > later has a paramattha dhamma. And both condition and reinforce the > other. > ----------------------------------------------- > > > S: "You say that akusala conditioned by the latent tendencies can be > > known, but don´t you think that these will only be in the form of > > stories conditioned by the initial story of `using breath as a > > reference´ and every other story centred on `self´?" > > > > L: I don't quite follow your question, but I would say desire can be > > known and it is a reality. > > Sukinder: > Any idea of "doing" must be based on a `situation', `story'. To keep > coming back to a particular object, the breath, the story must be retold > over and over. Paramattha dhammas arise and fall long before any > decision is made to come back to the breath, but still we go along with > the decision to continue the practice. This can only be done with a self > who is happy to maintain any illusion of knowing. No doubt that > depending on the accumulations, even here there can be satipatthana. > However if this were so, it would be with detachment and so no reason > to continue with any ritualized activity in the name of developing more > understanding. In fact one way to determine if indeed our practice > is `right' is to see if there is any detachment involved. > ------------------------------------------ > > > S: "I doubt that this can lead to satipatthana but instead only > > `thinking´ about kusala and akusala and this too, not necessarily with > > any level of panna." > > > > L: If you really don't want to do this you could recognize and > > experience that aversion as aversion. > > Sukinder: > :-) I could, or it could be any other reality. And if it is not a matter of my > wanting to or not, but only about understanding conditions, here too > there can be some sati. > > Metta, > Sukinder 44887 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:03am Subject: Re: Understanding realities ( was Mindfulness of breath in daily life) philofillet Hi Larry > How do you know you don't know? It's impossible. Well, I guess this not knowing is a form of ignorance (moha) which is a paramattha dhamma and can be known, eventually, by its characteristics. All akusala cittas are rooted in ignorance (and either dosa or lobha, or just ignorance.) The characteristics of the dosa and lobha would be what stands out, I guess, or the restlesness or doubt that accompanies the cittas that are rooted only in ignorance. So what is the characteristic of ignorance? I don't know. Sarah posted the other day about having an "inkling" of how much ignorance there is in the day. I have had that feeling too. But it is just thinking, for me, at least. One day when I was cycling down by the sea I saw a red cap and in a kind of flash I understood how fast the mind leaps from visible object to conceptualize. It felt like a fairly deep understanding and it has stuck with me and helped me to understand the difference between concepts and realities, but it is still just thinking, > Phil: "I don't yet understand what it means to understand a reality > directly without thinking about it." > > L: Before you think there has to be something to think about. That's it. There's no thinking without reality. Well, a concept can be the object of thinking. Must be? Yes, must be. The thinking is a reality, but the thing we think about isn't - not in dhamma terms, anyways. Paramattha dhamma terms. Is that statement correct? "The object of thinking must be a concept?" Come to think of it, maybe thinking *isn't* a reality. I think I have learned/heard that it is, and I think I have learned/heard that it isn't - it's the result of a lot of other paramattha dhammas at work, but it is not a paramattha dhamma itself. In any case, whether thinking is a paramattha dhamma or not, the thing we think about it isn't - not when we're thinking about it. Anger is a paramattha dhamma, but it isn't when we're thinking about it. >It's all over the place. There > might be a mythological assumption about the specialness of reality, a > desire for it to be more than it is. Well, I don't think mythological is the right word, but reality certainly is important. Seeing realites, direcly understanding them, is the only we we can crawl out of the ocean of concepts we're drowing in all day. That's pretty special. And it is much, much more difficult to understand them than people who have nevber heard the Buddha's teaching could possibly know. ?A touch of coldness, the blue of > the sky, a good feeling, love, recognizing a friend. Each one of these > is the whole of reality. That's all there is. I don't quite understand this. Each of them is a distinct reality, not the whole of reality, I would have thought. Is the above a Mahayana concept or something? BTW, I read a sutta today that helped me understand "understand" a little bit better. It is SN 22:23, "Full Understanding." "And what, bhikkhus, is full undersatnding? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion. This is called full understanding." The commentarial note by Bhikkhu Bodhi noted that parinna (full nderstanding) is used as a virtual synonym for pahana (abandonment.) We see here a degree of understanding that is at the opposite end of a continuum from my very shaky intellectual, book-based understanding. This sutta helped me to relax - there is a long way to go until direct understanding. Sarah wrote something in a post that I liked. The more panna develops, the less worrying/wondering about how much panna there is, can be etc. That is one of my loose paraphrases. As panna develops, it naturally eliminates pondering about panna. But as you can see I am still pondering. Metta, Phil 44888 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:59am Subject: The Path is born matheesha333 Hi Nina, I wonder if you could explain in abhidhamma terms what is meant by the below phrase 'the path is born', "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 Yuganaddha Sutta/In Tandem I'm wondering if this ties in with something where all the factors of the path reach highest point before issuing forth in magga and phala citta. I couldnt find a clear explanation on this, what I feel is an important issue. Any comments will be welcome. metta Matheesha 44889 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:24am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin wrote: Dear Htoo, > Mahasatipatthana sutta which is described in Mahavagga of Digha > Nikaaya of Tipitaka definitely say about 'breathing'. > Regarding teachers, they instruct how to follow the laid out path. > There may be many traditions. I value all and I do not accuse of > anyone's method not genuine. > Example is Mahasi Sayadaw's method. > When I studied what Mahasi Sayadaw taught, I did not find any flaws. Sukin continued: I started my path along the Theravada tradition with Goenka, this was five years ago. I chose his method because a retreat was accessible. But soon after my first retreat, I came upon and read a book by Mahasi Sayadaw. This impressed me greatly and was even decisive in turning me away from Mahayana to Theravada and I remember regretting that I had not discovered Mahasi's method before the Goenka, because I would surely have ended up taking a 20 day retreat. But the methods being different and I was unwilling to change, I went for my second Goenka retreat a couple of months later. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You already have advanced abhidhamma knowledge. I do not need to say any abhidhamma to you. As you did, I also experienced different methods. But you did not change the 1st one and when you join DSG, you seem to be stable. That is you no more believe in 'formal meditation'. I know DSG. But when I re-discover 'a sentence written by highly regarded person', I will let you know. If anyone is interested in this matter could they please write to me off-line. My practice started with Sunlum Sayadaw's method. It was a bit different from other. I also met Shwe Kyin Sayadaw's method. It looks natural. When I met Moegok Sayadaw's method, it was good to practise. But meditation teachers taught theory first. DSG seems to be stuck in theory. Realization-wise, I would like to classify them into 4 groups. 1. theory first, followed by practice 2. practice first, followed by theory 3. theory and practice go in tandem 4. indefinite achievement Whatever you believe, I believe The Buddha and The Buddha's words. The Buddha declared in Mahasatipatthana sutta that satipatthana is the only way, a single way, no other alternative way, genuine way for liberation. I do not want to accuse anyone doing satipatthana as doing rituals. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: But all that changed after I came upon DSG and Abhidhamma. Now, I don't think I will ever be interested in formal practice in this lifetime. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The question is what is 'formal practice'. If you describe The Buddha's method as 'formal practice', there is no way to be liberated. The Buddha Himself walked on the path He taught. Foregoing Sammasambuddhas all walked on the same path. All paccekabuddhas walked on this very same path of satipatthana. All saavaka walked on this very same path of satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: The fact that `breath' is mentioned in the Mahasatipatthana sutta, I think interpreting the significance of this is what we need to go into, and this must be in light of the whole Tipitaka and what is really the "Dhamma" taught by the Buddha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The problem is that even 'a single sutta' is not fully understood how one would touch whole tipitaka. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: Jon and Nina have discussed quite a bit on this topic and I depend on their greater understanding, familiarity with the Texts and analytical power to do the job ;-). Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Mahasi Sayadaw was a great Sayadaw. That was why I accept the job of questioner at 6th Buddhists Council. His position is like Venerable Kassapa Thera. Mahasi Sayadaw had no doubt greater understanding than other contemporary bhikkhus at that time. He was well well well familiarised with the texts and the whole tipitaka and that was why he accept to do the great job of questioner or pucchaka thera at 6th Buddhists Council. What I believe is that if satipatthana practitioners are accused of doing rituals and doing formal meditation and satipatthana practice is disregarded, then there is no way for liberation. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44890 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:38am Subject: [dsg] Re: Intellectual Understanding, no 2, jhana. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear Tep and Matheesha, Meditation teachers give their comments, and advice, but in the last instance everyone has to find out for himself what the way is he should follow. Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Tep, Matheesha, 'everyone has to find out for himself what the way is he should follow'. As soon as I saw this sentence, I remember a saying 'attaahi attano naatho'. Even The Buddha just did as a guide. The Buddha could not create arahatta magga nana for others. The problem is the word 'understanding'. Real understanding is at magga kaala. Otherwise everything before sotapanship is just a copy of others. That is not realization. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44891 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:43am Subject: Dhamma Thread (338) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kinds of kamma depending on their regenerative power. 1. janaka kamma ( regenerative kamma, or reproductive kamma ) 2. upatthambhaka kamma( supportive kamma, or reinforcing kamma ) 3. upapiilaka kamma ( weakening kamma, or diminishing kamma ) 4. upaghataka kamma ( cutting kamma, or destructive kamma ) Janaka kamma, upatthambhaka kamma, and upapiilaka kamma have been talked in the previous posts. Still there left the fourth kamma in this group of kamma according to their causative power or regenerative power. This fourth kamma is called upaghataka kamma. This kamma is very powerful unlike other three kamma. Janaka kamma has the power or potential to give rise to its effect. Its weightage is supported by uptthambhaka kamma while upapiilaka kamma diminishes the power of janaka kamma. Unlike upapiilaka kamma, upaghaataka kamma completely abolish the existing kamma. Upaghaataka kamma eradicates all the potentials that exist in janaka kamma in question to the level that no trace of janaka kamma is left. Anyone or any being in any of 31 realms has many many existings or lives in the immesaurable rounds of rebirth cycle or samsara. When matured, being develops to highest level of panna or wisdom and becomes an arahat. As soon as arahatta magga nana arises all the existing 'kamma that may give rise to future rebirths' are totally abolished by arahatta magga nana's power. The cetana that arises along with arahatta magga citta is sahajaata- kamma and that kamma eradicates all the existing 'kamma that may give rise to future rebirths'. That cetana is kamma. But it arises and stays just for a citta-moment or a cittakkhana. But its shade or kamma follows all arising cittas till cuti citta of that arahat. At the end of cuti citta of arahat, samsara-long accumulations are all extinguished instantaneously. This kamma cut up all rebirth-giving kamma and it may be called as upaghaataka kamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 44892 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:27am Subject: Biological Beings, The Buddha and Cittas in a day (02) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The first consciousness for the day is manodvara-avajjana citta or mind-door-adverting consciousness. This citta is at the mind and it first knows that we wake up. It cannot stay long. It just lasts a moment. Next arises 1st javana citta. This citta also knows that we wake up. Again it passes away. Next 2nd javana citta arises. This happens till 7th javana citta. Actually knowledge that we wake up does not arise at that first consciousness of the day. But apperception-wise, the first consciousness is that we know that we wake up. If these cittas are looked in detail, before we know that we wake up, there have to happen many many many cittas. These may be touch-sense-consciousness, sound-sense-consciousness, light-sense-consciousness, smell-sense-consciousness, taste-sense- consciousness. These 5 physical senses are real start of the day. But there may still be other consciousness like manodvara-vithi cittas that think out our dreams. All cittas that arose in The Buddha worked fruitfully. So all moments during the day time are busy with their jobs. When The Buddha rested, there arose bhavanga cittas and then The Buddha went into deep sleep. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 44893 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:27am Subject: [dsg] Re: Intellectual Understanding, no 2, jhana. buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo, Nina, Matheesha - Thank you Nina and Htoo for your final remarks : N: > > Meditation teachers give their comments, and advice, but in the last > instance everyone has to find out for himself what the way is he > should follow. T: Please carefully notice that in the earlier message to Nina, I quoted from several discourses given by the Buddha [SN XXXV.99, Samadhi Sutta, Iti III.36; Iti 80, AN IX.36 and MN 64, AN IX.36, MN 64, and SNXII.23]. So, did Nina mean that those "comments and advice" the suttas are just one of the alternatives? One big difference is that I believe the Buddha's "comments and advice" are the only way for me to follow. ------------------------- H: > > Real understanding is at magga kaala. Otherwise everything before > sotapanship is just a copy of others. That is not realization. > T: Of course, Htoo. But how is "real understanding" fully developed? Let's examine Indriya. Saddha (in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha) is the first of the five Indriyas, and Panna is the last. Maybe the reason why Panna is the last is because it is the most difficult to be fully developed without the other four as supporting conditions. What do you say? Respectfully, Tep ======== -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > Dear Tep and Matheesha, > > > > Nina. > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Nina, Tep, Matheesha, > > 'everyone has to find out for himself what the way is he should > follow'. > > As soon as I saw this sentence, I remember a saying 'attaahi attano > naatho'. > > Even The Buddha just did as a guide. The Buddha could not create > arahatta magga nana for others. > > The problem is the word 'understanding'. > > Real understanding is at magga kaala. Otherwise everything before > sotapanship is just a copy of others. That is not realization. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 44894 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Intellectual Understanding, no 2, jhana. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Htoo, Nina, Matheesha - Thank you Nina and Htoo for your final remarks : N: > > Meditation teachers give their comments, and advice, but in the last > instance everyone has to find out for himself what the way is he > should follow. T: Please carefully notice that in the earlier message to Nina, I quoted from several discourses given by the Buddha [SN XXXV.99, Samadhi Sutta, Iti III.36; Iti 80, AN IX.36 and MN 64, AN IX.36, MN 64, and SNXII.23]. So, did Nina mean that those "comments and advice" the suttas are just one of the alternatives? One big difference is that I believe the Buddha's "comments and advice" are the only way for me to follow. ------------------------- H: > > Real understanding is at magga kaala. Otherwise everything before > sotapanship is just a copy of others. That is not realization. T: Of course, Htoo. But how is "real understanding" fully developed? Let's examine Indriya. Saddha (in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha) is the first of the five Indriyas, and Panna is the last. Maybe the reason why Panna is the last is because it is the most difficult to be fully developed without the other four as supporting conditions. What do you say? Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 1.saddhaa 2.viiriya 3.sati 4.samaadhi 5.pannaa Because of maturity of these, all anaagams have to be reborn in 5 pure abode or 5 suddha-vaasa brahma bhuumis or realms. The highest brahma bhuumi is akanittha bhuumi and this is reached through pannaa. Next below akanittha is sudassii bhuumi and this is reached by samaadhi maturition. Next below is sudassaa bhuumi and it is reached by sati. Next below is atappaa bhuumi and this is reached through viiriya. Next below is avihaa bhuumi and this is reached through saddhaa. But these are not in isolation. All brahmas in 5 pure abode DO have all 5 INDRIYAS. But among 5 indriyas brahma with best pannaa are reborn in akanitthaa bhuumi and so on. As soon as magga citta arises, the panna in that magga citta is genuine one that one really experiences. And this is not the copy. If I say 'this panna develop so and so' that saying may be the copy. When you reach it, you will see with your eyes. When you cannot reach it, you will not really see it. But you may still hold the copy successively transferred from The Buddha. The copy is not realization yet. Because you may commit bad things holding the copy. But once you realise, you will never break 5 precepts even at the expence of your life. This happen because there is no ditthi or wrong view, no vicikicchaa or doubt. People may be airing by holding the copy that panna is important, sati is important. But holding hand just holds the copy and the copy is not in the brain. So it cannot be as fast as the brain. The copy has to be put into a computer, click, click, click and find the answer. But the things in the brain, which are already experienced is not like the copy. That is realization and not the copy. With Metta, Htoo Naing 44895 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Path is born nilovg Hi Matheesha, op 28-04-2005 17:59 schreef matheesha op dhammachat@...: > I wonder if you could explain in abhidhamma terms what is meant by > the below phrase 'the path is born', > > "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity > preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by > insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, > pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- > his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. > > Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 Yuganaddha Sutta/In Tandem ---------- The Co. in Thai: and so on. I think the path is born refers to: first the mundane path up to lokuttara magga. He eradicates all defilements. Nina. 44896 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 0:33pm Subject: Re: Intellectual Understanding, no 2, jhana. buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - I like your remark about perfection of the five precepts : H: But once you realise, you will never break 5 precepts even at the expence of your life. This happen because there is no ditthi or wrong view, no vicikicchaa or doubt. T: Indeed, this kind of Sila is similar to one of the four factors of stream entry in Anguttara Nikaya X.92, Vera Sutta: "He is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration." Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: (snipped) > Htoo: > > There are > > 1.saddhaa > 2.viiriya > 3.sati > 4.samaadhi > 5.pannaa > > Because of maturity of these, all anaagams have to be reborn in 5 > pure abode or 5 suddha-vaasa brahma bhuumis or realms. > > The highest brahma bhuumi is akanittha bhuumi and this is reached > through pannaa. > > Next below akanittha is sudassii bhuumi and this is reached by > samaadhi maturition. > > Next below is sudassaa bhuumi and it is reached by sati. > > Next below is atappaa bhuumi and this is reached through viiriya. > > Next below is avihaa bhuumi and this is reached through saddhaa. > > But these are not in isolation. > > All brahmas in 5 pure abode DO have all 5 INDRIYAS. > > But among 5 indriyas brahma with best pannaa are reborn in akanitthaa > bhuumi and so on. > > As soon as magga citta arises, the panna in that magga citta is > genuine one that one really experiences. And this is not the copy. > > If I say 'this panna develop so and so' that saying may be the copy. > When you reach it, you will see with your eyes. When you cannot reach > it, you will not really see it. But you may still hold the copy > successively transferred from The Buddha. The copy is not realization > yet. > > Because you may commit bad things holding the copy. But once you > realise, you will never break 5 precepts even at the expence of your > life. This happen because there is no ditthi or wrong view, no > vicikicchaa or doubt. > > People may be airing by holding the copy that panna is important, > sati is important. But holding hand just holds the copy and the copy > is not in the brain. So it cannot be as fast as the brain. > > The copy has to be put into a computer, click, click, click and find > the answer. > > But the things in the brain, which are already experienced is not > like the copy. That is realization and not the copy. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 44897 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:48pm Subject: Re: sati and no sati, Sukin # 27400, Intellectual Understanding buddhatrue Hi Sarah (and Christine), Sarah: When we were walking amongst the beggars in India, I also found it helped a lot to reflect on kamma and to develop a little metta, compassion and especially equanimity right then and there. James: The equanimity I developed toward the kitten wasn't until later, but I was still satisfied to have had the inspiration and insights arise- even thought they were delayed. I believe it is very difficult to have the type of equanimity, compassion, and metta you describe exactly at the appropriate times, especially in this day and age of such attachment to the senses. Your ability to do such a thing in the face of such suffering in India demonstrates that your achievement must be beyond my own. However, we must ever be vigilant of the near enemy of equanimity: indifference. It is very easy to have indifference at the moments of such suffering, but not as easy to have equanimity. We must be careful not to confuse the two. Metta, James ps. Christine, I don't doubt the difficult decisions and thoughtful planning made for such an action (regarding the wild camels in Australia). I was simply describing my emotional reaction, not making a political statement. 44898 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings10 ?ELivelihood & Assisting the Hunter kenhowardau Dear Robert K, Thanks again for persisting. There is light at the end of the tunnel - not much, but some. I have a theory that the answers will become clear when I understand the Buddhist concept of livelihood. ----------------------- RK: > I give my understanding on this. ------------------------ And I'll play devil's advocate, if you don't mind: (Sorry in advance for being obstreperous.) --------------------------------- RK: > I do not believe that someone can perform an abortion, or spray pesticide on insects, without having akusala citta. ---------------------------------- Maybe so, but there are cases where an abortion is the only sensible option and where only a religious extremist (or similar fool) would refuse to allow it. Also, there are cases where insects must be killed to save the lives of humans and animals. Can you imagine a doctor refusing to remove a deadly parasitic maggot because it would die in the process? What sort of doctor would let both a woman and a foetus die rather than kill the foetus and save the woman? OK, many people would, and good luck to them, but they should not be doctors. ----------------------------------- RK: > I think the more insight there is into paramattha dhammas the more that akusala citta should become clear. So for a sotapanna even to swat a mosquito is an impossibility. ------------------------------------ There were (and maybe are) sotapannas who were householders with children and domestic animals in their charge. Would they allow one of them to die for want of killing a malaria mosquito or a paralysis tick (etc.)? I don't know, but I doubt it. If they felt that way they would do better to relinquish their duties of care and become recluses. I know it is impossible for a sotapanna to kill, and I'm not necessarily saying they would try to kill. I think, in the above situations, they might act to save the victim despite the apparent risk of (almost certainly) killing the parasite. (Since they are incapable of killing, what have they got to lose?) -------------------- RK: > In fact the commentaries say that a king's soldier could be standing over a sotapanna with a drawn sword about to cut his head off unless he kills an ant; and at the same time the royal treasurer could be offering a fortune if he do so, but the sotapan would always choose death. Why?: Because they see clearly the nature of akusala. -------------------- That's different, and I agree with that interpretation. Putting aside my devil's advocate's hat for a while, I'd like to ask a Dhamma question: What kind of akusala is a sotapanna capable of? I know he can have anger, sense-delight and conceit, but can he deliberately offend someone in the process? If a sotapanna became angry with me and called me an idiot, I'd be very upset (much more so than if a fool did the same thing). What I am thinking is; it would take less akusala kamma to kill an ant than it would to humiliate a human. ---------------------------------- RK: > Now even one who is begining to see paramttha dhammas will be that much less likely to kill, or approach a situation where he might kill, than someone who has no understanding. The complication in this- and I think where your protests come from- is that someone with wrong view and acting out of silabataparamasa can also be adverse to killing. --------------------------------- I don't think that's quite the same point as the one I was making. Rightly or wrongly, I was saying that the conceptual world is only a rough estimation of absolute reality: it doesn't tell us when there is kusala kamma and when there is akusala kamma. Some Seventh Day Adventists would let a child die for want of a simple blood transfusion. They are that sure of what is God's Law and what is not. (And they are dangerously, ridiculously, misguided.) Some Buddhists might let their daughter die for want of an abortion. That is equally ridiculous and misguided. Let's not get ahead of ourselves and pretend to understand when there is kusala kamma and when there is akusala kamma. Let's just follow the rules of society and leave kamma to arise by conditions (as it will anyway). The suttas explain that we go wrong whenever we cling to something ("This is mine") or have the conceit to appropriate something ("I am this") or have wrong view, ("This is my self"). But we will inevitably do those things countless times every day. And to *try* not to do those things would lead to ludicrous results: "No, that is not my wallet" "I do not exist" and so on. That (I am thinking) is why we have the concept of livelihood. It is a role we can act out without believing we have any ultimate control in daily life. We are not ultimately capable of differentiating akusala dhammas from kusala dhammas and so we shouldn't pretend to do so. We should set aside some time for learning the Dhamma, and, at other times, just act out our roles knowing that dana, sila and bhavana depend on right understanding, not on a controlling self. Ken H 44899 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:31pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 179- Right Effort of the eightfold Path (j) gazita2002 Dear Sarah, One of my daughters commented that her memory of a past event as a child, was clear but she could not relate herself now to that small person. So I forwarded this onto her - without making any other 'mother' comments :-) I guess its sannakhandha that is one of the conditions for us to think about that 'person that was'. Plus the lobha etc to 'that person'. We cling to our memories but how weird is that, when they are no more that a bubble, and yet we still cling because there are the conditions to do so. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > The Buddha knew the accumulations of beings and thus whenever > he preached to someone he could remind him in the way which > was most suitable for him. He often reminded people of the foulness > of "this short-lived body", in order to stir them to develop > satipaììhåna. The Thera Kimbila (Thera-gåthå 118) was stirred > when the Buddha, by his supernatural power, conjured up the > image of a beautiful woman and showed her passing to old age. > The Commentary relates that he was greatly shaken by this image. > He spoke this verse: > * > As bidden by some power age over her falls. > Her shape is as another, yet the same. > Now this myself, who never has left myself, > Seems other than the self I recollect. > * > Kimbila realized that what he took for self are ever-changing > phenomena. Although what we call in conventional terms the > "present personality" has developed from the "past personality", > there isn't any reality which is self. The phenomena of the present > moment fall away immediately as soon as they have arisen and > are completely gone. The commentary relates that Kimbila, while > he considered the truth of impermanence, was yet more strongly > agitated. He listened to the Buddha, became a monk and attained > arahatship. > ***** > [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 44900 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi Sarah, all gazita2002 Hello Andrew, Sarah and others, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi AndrewL, > > Whenever I start wondering how you're doing, you appear:-) > > --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > > > I am writing this message to inform you all that I don't think this > > being a regular member of this discussion group is 'me.' At least for > > the present, I will not be checking here as the threads I start do not > > yield the good results I was expecting when I began them. Azita: Andrew, this is a little note of encouragment to not leave dsg outright. You know, I don't post very often and days may go by when I don't read dsg, but then when I do, there is always something that 'catches my eye'. A little gem that helps me understand the dhamma a bit more, or something that gets me thinking about the dhamma is some way. I personally find listening more beneficial, and that's by accummulations I guess. Stay around and 'lurk' awhile; I make out loud comments, polite and sometimes impolite, and the great thing is - noone hears and therefore not offended :-) Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 44901 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:08pm Subject: Re: Understanding realities ( was Mindfulness of breath in daily life) philofillet Hi Larry, and all Ph: > BTW, I read a sutta today that helped me understand "understand" a > little bit better. It is SN 22:23, "Full Understanding." "And what, > bhikkhus, is full undersatnding? The destruction of lust, the > destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion. This is called full > understanding." The commentarial note by Bhikkhu Bodhi noted that > parinna (full understanding) is used as a virtual synonym for pahana > (abandonment.) Today I found suttas (SN 45: 161-180?jin which the progression direct knowledge > full understanding > utter detruction > abandonment is used. I assume this is found in many other suttas. Is there anyone out there who has found the difference between "direct knowledge" and "full understanding" to be useful in your intellectual understanding of realities? Is it one of those things that had best be left as beyond-us-for now? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 44902 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:28pm Subject: Re: Understanding realities ( was Mindfulness of breath in daily life) philofillet Ph > Today I found suttas (SN 45: 161-180?jin which the progression > direct knowledge > full understanding > utter detruction > > abandonment is used. I assume this is found in many other suttas. > Is there anyone out there who has found the difference > between "direct knowledge" and "full understanding" to be useful in > your intellectual understanding of realities? Is it one of those > things that had best be left as beyond-us-for now? Thanks in advance. An afterthought question - is the above related to the "three rounds" of the four noble truths that I have been hearing a lot about in the recorded talks. (I forget the Pali - something like sacciyana, gitayana and katayana) The first refers to a "well-established" understanding, the second to something more direct, the third to a full realization of some kind. Related to the above? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 44903 From: "Philip" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:26pm Subject: Re: Understanding realities ( was Mindfulness of breath in daily life) philofillet Hello again > An afterthought question - is the above related to the "three rounds" > of the four noble truths that I have been hearing a lot about in the > recorded talks. (I forget the Pali - something like sacciyana, gitayana > and katayana) The first refers to a "well-established" understanding, > the second to something more direct, the third to a full realization of > some kind. Related to the above? Thanks in advance. After posting the above I googled these three rounds and came up with soemthing from Nina's "Pilgrimage to India" (available at http://www.dhammastudy.com/India7.html): "We read in the ?gKindred Sayings?h (V, The Great Chapter, Kindred Sayings about the Truths, Ch 2, The Foundation of the Kingdom of the Dhamma), that the Buddha, when he was dwelling at Isipatana, in the Deer-park, explained to the five disciples the four noble Truths. The Commentary to this Sutta, the ?gSaratthappakasini, explains about three ?grounds?h or intertwined phases 1 of realizing the four noble Truths: knowledge of the truth, sacca nana knowledge of the task that has to be performed, kicca nana knowledge of the task that has been done, kata nana 2 (snip) Acharn Sujin referred very often to these three ?grounds?h or phases and explained that without the first phase, the firm understanding of what the four noble Truths are, there cannot be the second phase, the performing of the task, that is, satipatthana, nor the third phase, the fruit of the practice, that is, the penetration of the true nature of realities. (end quote) Is this "firm understanding" intellectual? I'll leave it at that for now and get back to putting out the laundry. Metta, Phil 44904 From: "Lisa" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:08pm Subject: ~Nanna and interesting word foamflowers Hi Everyone! Sometimes words come into my mind and stay with me and I have no idea what they mean. I started chasing ~Nana down and found some other interesting words that speak of understanding as insight. If I remember correctly reading in some post what understanding means. Maybe understanding is actually insight or intuition the knowing without having to think, you just know without out having to put anything together. Cakkhu as faculty of perception & apperception; insight, knowledge. In connection with nana (ghw_sis) it refers to the apperception of the truth (see dhamma--cakkhu): intuition and recognition, which means perfect understanding, janati passati "to know and to see"=to understand clearly; the deva--eye, the eye of a seer, allpervading, & seeing all that proceeds in hidden worlds; panna, the eye of wisdom; he who knows all that can be known (janan passan recognizing & seeing, i. e. of perfect understanding; cakkhubhuta nana dhamma brahma; buddha, the eye of a Buddha or of complete intuition, i. e. of a person who "sees the heart of man," of a being realizing the moral state of other beings and determined to help them; nana--karana, producing (right) insight (and knowledge) of kusalavitakka; majjhima patipada; dada one who gives the eye (of understanding) dhatu the element of vision; patha the range of vision. cakkhunan etan naman=one who has become the possessor of right understanding; The eve as the most important channel of mental acquiring, as faculty of perception & apperception; insight, knowledge; In connection with nana (ghw_sis) it refers to the apperception of the truth (see dhamma--cakkhu): intuition and recognition, which means perfect understanding; the use of the phrase janati passati "to know and to see" to understand clearly. perfect understanding; cakkhubhuta nana dhamma brahma Ñana, knowledge, intelligence, insight, conviction, recognition, opp. anana & avijja, lack of ignorance. -- Ñana in the theory of cognition: it occurs in intensive couple--compounds with terms of sight as cakkhu (eye) & dassana (sight, view), e. g. in cakkhu--karana nana--karana "opening our eyes & thus producing knowledge" i. e. giving us the eye of knowledge (a mental eye) (see cakkhu, janati passati, & karana) Bhagava janan janati passan passati cakkhu--bhuto nana--bhuto; he is one perfected in knowledge natthi hetu natthi paccayo nanaya dassanaya ahetu apaccayo nanan dassanan hoti "through seeing & knowing," i. e. on grounds of definite knowledge arises the sure conviction that where there is no cause there is no consequence; also the relation of ditthi to nana. This implies that all things visible are knowable as well as that all our knowledge is based on empirical grounds; yavatakan neyyan tavatakan nanan yan nanan tan dassanan, yan dassanan tan nanan, nana+dassana (i. e. full vision) as one of the characteristics of Arahantship: see arahant anan hoti or uppajjati knowledge comes to (him) i. e. to reason, to arrive at a conclusion, aparapaccaya, of the non--effect of causation through lack of cause, sammaditthi), same as ahetu--nana Defined as tisso vijja The three kinds of wisdom: inclination of mind, Nibbana, the four fruits of the homeless life (tisso vijja: cittassa adhimutti nibbanam cattari samaññaphalani] Paramattha Mañjusa Tika Sutta Nipata V.2 Tissa-metteyya-manava-puccha Tissa-metteyya's Questions Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only Tissa-metteyya: Who here in the world is contented? Who has no agitations? What thinker knowing both sides, doesn't adhere in between? Whom do you call a great person? Who here has gone past the seamstress: craving. The Buddha: He who in the midst of sensualities, follows the holy life, always mindful, craving-free; the monk who is -- through fathoming things -- Unbound: he has no agitations. He, the thinker knowing both sides, doesn't adhere in between. He I call a great person. He here has gone past the seamstress: craving. With Metta, Lisa 44905 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:39pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 180 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== There are time and again signs of foulness and decay in our body. Our body is susceptible to decay, and death can come at any moment. We do not know when the last citta of our life, the dying-consciousness, will arise. For those who have accumulated conditions for sati the thought of death can remind them to be aware. We read that the Buddha’s disciples, when they were stirred by an event in their life, “put forth energy and strove with passionate ardour”. We read, for example, in the “Therígåthå (29) that Såmå could not find peace of mind during the twenty five years she was a nun. In her old age she heard a sermon of the Buddha which stirred her, and she attained arahatship. We read that she said: * “To free my path from all that causes dukkha, I strove with passionate ardour, and I won!” * When we read these words we may misunderstand them. We are so used to thinking of effort as effort exerted by a self that we can hardly imagine how there can be effort arising because of its own conditions. Realities appear already through the five senses and through the mind-door. Visible object, for example, appears time and again. We could begin to investigate its characteristic until it is realized as just visible object appearing through eyesense, not something or somebody. There can be striving without the concept of self who strives. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 44906 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:58pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, -- Concept vs Reality sukinderpal Dear Tep, Some specific and some general comments. ---------------------------------- Tep: > You asked many questions because of doubts or disbelief in the > anapanasati specifically. Sukinder: Was it doubt and disbelief in anapanasati per se? I think it was more about context and whether it is suitable for the beginner, of course here is implied that you and I are indeed only beginners. It is also about whether anapanasati was crucial or even supportive (as far as you and I are concerned) for the development of satipatthana. It may be true that for certain individuals for whom this object is clear and natural to occur, for them the `four frames of reference' can come to completion. But this is because of their developed panna which is so great that any dhamma through any doorway is easily known for what it is. For those of us who are barely able to crawl, it is I think, wrong to make such a connection in terms of our own development. ----------------------------- Tep: > I have prepared a summary of three very > good readings on breathing meditation, and it is given below. Sukinder: I really admire your ability and energy to do this kind of thing. I feel apprehensive just to think about having to write a summary to one post and to look up one Sutta. Also while I am full of uddhacca, your sanna and manasikara seem to work very well. :-) ------------------------------- Tep: > This summary should educate you the necessary basic ideas that may > help reduce your doubts. To actually reduce all your doubts there is no > other way but practicing it yourself. Sukinder: What is your understanding of `Ehipassiko'? To me it is all about sati and panna in the present moment. It is not about following some conventional activity and comparing the result of that with some theory. If the theory (of Dhamma) is understood correctly, that is the test and proof of that level. But if there is no panna at the time, but instead wrong understanding, then the theory would inevitably condition wrong practice, and indeed because of citta, sanna and ditthi vipallasa, we will end up seeing what we like to see, i.e. the illusion of result. On the other hand if the pariyatti (a reference to panna) is correct, then correct pattipati will follow, and when it does, the pariyatti also deepens and NEVER is there any inclination to downplay it. Here `Ehipassiko' has greater meaning. However pariyatti goes all the way till pativedha and beyond, in playing a crucial part in the development of wisdom. ------------------------------------------ Tep: > (1) Why is breathing meditation very useful and recommended by the > Buddha? > > [Samyutta Nikaya LIV.13: Ananda Sutta] > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings > the four frames of reference (foundations of mindfulness) to completion. > The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the > seven factors for Awakening to completion. The seven factors for > Awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & > release to completion. Sukinder: As I said above, this is a reference to stages of development way beyond you and me. But more importantly, this is a "description" of, and not a "prescription" for fleeting khandhas. ;-) ------------------------------------ Tep: > (2) How is breathing mediation practiced and what does it bring? (Just > only the first and second tetrad) Sukinder: I will refrain from commenting on the rest of your post, except to say that I disagree with the reasoning of all three Teachers in the below writings. Metta, Sukinder 44907 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:59pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Message # 27400, Too sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Comments below: -------------------------------------- > Sukin continued: > that I had not discovered Mahasi's method before the Goenka, because > I would surely have ended up taking a 20 day retreat. > > But the methods being different and I was unwilling to change, I went > for my second Goenka retreat a couple of months later. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > You already have advanced abhidhamma knowledge. I do not need to say > any abhidhamma to you. Sukinder: :-) No Htoo, unlike you, I don't have anything above a beginner's knowledge of Abhidhamma. You may be surprised as to how much of Abhidhamma I would not be interested in, given my inability to remember and pay attention to pali words and to scholarly writings. ----------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > As you did, I also experienced different methods. But you did not > change the 1st one and when you join DSG, you seem to be stable. That > is you no more believe in 'formal meditation'. > > I know DSG. But when I re-discover 'a sentence written by highly > regarded person', I will let you know. If anyone is interested in > this matter could they please write to me off-line. Sukinder: Please do bring it to our attention here on DSG itself. I am sure almost everyone would be interested. ------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > My practice started with Sunlum Sayadaw's method. It was a bit > different from other. I also met Shwe Kyin Sayadaw's method. It looks > natural. When I met Moegok Sayadaw's method, it was good to practise. > But meditation teachers taught theory first. > > DSG seems to be stuck in theory. Sukinder: If by this you mean that very rarely anyone of us experiences patipatti, then I agree. But if you mean that because we never talk about practice in the conventional sense and encourage it, or that because we praise the value of pariyatti so much, then I think this is because your understanding of pariyatti and patipatti is different from mine. Which seem to be apparent below. -------------------------------- Htoo: > Realization-wise, I would like to classify them into 4 groups. > > 1. theory first, followed by practice > 2. practice first, followed by theory > 3. theory and practice go in tandem > 4. indefinite achievement Sukinder: When you say in 1., "theory first, followed by practice", I think already there might be a difference in understanding. I really don't like to draw a line between pariyatti and patipatti except to show that they have different objects. I know that pariyatti cannot lead to pativedha without much, much patipatti. But all this is not a matter of choice. But if indeed the understanding is correct, then one would have to agree that pariyatti is very important and that Bahussuta is a condition for realization. It is this accumulated dhamma pariyatti, which leads to patipatti and not any decision to practice. --------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Whatever you believe, I believe The Buddha and The Buddha's words. > > The Buddha declared in Mahasatipatthana sutta that satipatthana is > the only way, a single way, no other alternative way, genuine way for > liberation. > > I do not want to accuse anyone doing satipatthana as doing rituals. Sukinder: Satipatthana is not a ritual, but any "doing" is, and that wouldn't be satipatthana. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukin continued: > But all that changed after I came upon DSG and Abhidhamma. Now, I > don't think I will ever be interested in formal practice in this > lifetime. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > The question is what is 'formal practice'. Sukinder: Yes a good concept to explore. ----------------------------------------------- Htoo: > If you describe The Buddha's method as 'formal practice', there is no > way to be liberated. Sukinder: Are you referring to what he did before he attained enlightenment or is it something else? Something he taught to do, after he became Buddha? ---------------------------------------------- Htoo: > The Buddha Himself walked on the path He taught. Foregoing > Sammasambuddhas all walked on the same path. All paccekabuddhas > walked on this very same path of satipatthana. All saavaka walked on > this very same path of satipatthana. Sukinder: Yes, and each one of them developed a whole lot of parami. :-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukin continued: > > The fact that `breath' is mentioned in the Mahasatipatthana sutta, I > think interpreting the significance of this is what we need to go > into, and this must be in light of the whole Tipitaka and what is > really the "Dhamma" taught by the Buddha. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > The problem is that even 'a single sutta' is not fully understood how > one would touch whole tipitaka. Sukinder: The point is not about reading the whole Tipitaka; many can do that with wrong understanding. It is to read it in such a way, that any part touched and explored would not contradict other parts. One must experience one taste, of Anatta, which ever part of the Text is studied. Whatever in the conventional sense, the people of Buddha's time did, the path they took must all be the same one path, Satipatthana. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > What I believe is that if satipatthana practitioners are accused of > doing rituals and doing formal meditation and satipatthana practice > is disregarded, then there is no way for liberation. Sukinder: Above you said, "The question is what is 'formal practice'". Let us stick with this. No one here has said anything about Satipatthana not being the way. We can start this discussion right away. You label `satipatthana practitioners' and seem to put this together with `formal practice', so at least here you do see satipatthana as something more than a momentary arising of citta and take it to also mean a "person meditating". Or else you believe that a person who follows a certain tradition of practice concentrating on the breath or sensations, that such a person *is* developing satipatthana. Is this your position? Look forward to your comments. Metta, Sukinder 44908 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 29, 2005 0:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 179- Right Effort of the eightfold Path (j) sarahprocter... Hi Azita & KenH, --- gazita2002 wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > One of my daughters commented that her memory of a past event as > a child, was clear